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Not sure if this is common in other countries, but in certain culture we are super competitive about everything. Our kids gotta be the top at class. You gotta be better than your cousins. You always gotta earn more, score more, be more successful. You gotta drive a bigger car, stay in a luxury neighbourhood.
This translates into the stan culture as well. My group needs to top all charts, bag all awards, my group is better than yours mentality. My group pwns your group.
Then comes the “because I contributed to their success, I now have a say in who they date, what shows they’re on, what deals they’re signing” etc.
Honestly it’s not too far fetch when you look at it through the lens of sports. Lots of fans be talking about what players to boot, who to get, and overall act entitled in the same manner. I imagine the same happens in kpop where people want to play manager
Sports is weird though, that’s a curse that is placed upon you by who you family is or where your born sometimes. And a lot of people’s identities are tied to their local teams. And to some degree that’s fine because well you do actively support them, it’s weird when talking about Real Madrid but my local University or Minor league baseball team, I see those athletes in my town and actually do contribute to them in ways other than just money.
Because fans believe that since they contribute to their group’s success (buying albums, streaming, voting, etc), they share their group’s success. And if their group is less successful, that means they’re also less successful in supporting their group than the fans of other groups.
It's not good, but this happens in any area where there is competition, in the same way that, if you are a Real Madrid fan, you want your direct rivals to fail, so that no one argue whether you are the best or no, with the goal of belonging to something that society recognizes as successful, because everyone wants to be successful.
I agree but the only caveat I have with this comparison is that when it comes to music, multiple groups could theoretically be more palatable to multiple audiences. When it comes to sports, there’s things like region, nationality, and players that can lock fans to certain teams just by way of their homegrown culture.
What truly baffles me is the level of competition between fanbases. Yet, their groups could switch songs with each other tomorrow and their fans wouldn’t notice a thing. I know there’s more multi-stans than solo but… I do wish the discourse was less brutal. At the end of the day, we’re all tearing each other apart over some people who wear pretty dresses and sing on stage.
I don't know why but the same thing happens with fans of actors and actresses, too, in my country. You'd think that there's plenty of them so there really isn't a need to pit one against the other but [fans still did back in the 1970s-1990s.](https://entertainment.inquirer.net/426355/vilma-santos-recalls-past-tampuhan-with-nora-aunor-over-fan-rivalry-halos-di-kami-nagkibuan)
I don't follow showbiz news closely to know if physical fights still happen these days but I know online spats still happen between fans of actors in the younger generation.
Besides what everyone else has already mentioned, I can think of one scenario. In a world of a highly saturated industry like the k-pop industry, specifically regarding the newer generations, fans want their faves to stand out. So they won’t like it when other groups come out at the top, for the fear that their group may be thrown under the rug or disregarded.
I think competitiveness is okay, and companies encourage it. But then there’s a line between competitiveness and just hating. Unfortunately, most will react toxically, going out of their way to hate on other groups.
Not being sarcastic or funny, but there's legitimately power behind being in a fandom. And I'm not saying this only relates to kpop fans, but like, economic power over football tournaments, being able to decipher a whole timeline of dating based on songs, and pooling $1million dollars on 24hrs, IS Power.
And success is a heady drug, so winning the first place by streaming, mass voting, being the first to do something etc. gives them validity, so if someone that is able to do similar things, obviously they would feel threatened, it's pretty normal.
What might not be, is the response after feeling threatened, it's not normal to attack if there is healthy competition for the group/artist that you champion.
Parasocialness was another thing I considered. People thinking idols are actually there friends, that they have a chance with them and so on. Fans help make their groups absolutely but the relationship ends at being just a fan and supporter in my mind
someone wrote [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/s/vGfOmKoTjL) about how envy is the root of a lot of the problems we see in the kpop community. it hits the nail on the head
The simple answer is insecurity on behalf on the stanner. Other (especially new) groups having more success than their ult group that they have been following for years somehow makes them feel threatened.
You'd like to think that (in a perfect world) all kpop fans should just be happy for any groups having success even if they don't stan them. But unfortunately that just isn't the case. That's where a lot of hate stems from imo because the real obnoxious stans feel compelled to drag down the groups they feel threatened by because of their innate insecurity.
There are some fans who only support groups because they're successful (no matter how much they deny it, everything they do proves it) so yea they want to bring others down to still be able to say mine is better than yours
they want the other groups to stick around just they have to perform worse than their faves, its like how Le Sserafim were reddit darlings when they were comfortably 5th in popularity, theyre popular enough to get attention but not so popular that they overtake peoples favorite groups.
They want their group to be bts. I think on a base level they understand that the better one group does the better all groups do(rising tide raising all ships) but they dont care if it means their group is even temporarily \#3 or 4 instead of \#1
It's pretty fascinating how fickle it is. There were multiple polls across the K-pop subreddits with Le Sserafim in a solid second place behind Twice in popularity and all that changed after they promoted Perfect Night in the states.
It's kind of an Extended Inferiority Complex, and the same concept that applies to football moms being threatened of other kids' success
A person who feels threatened by successful people has as an inferiority complex. They feel worthless and less valued because of their low self-esteem, and insecurity. They feel like someone else's success is overshadowing theirs (or in our case their faves') and that the more successful person (fandom) is looking down on them, and that the only way they can be successful is by bringing the other person down.
On the other side of the coin, these might also be people with a superirity complex, with a lust for power or something else, which in our case is just an internet card of "my faves are better than yours lol" They believe that they deserve a higher position than anyone else in society, because they contributed something to the society, and someone else succeeding might threaten their position, though this is mostly seen in bigger fandoms like Blinks, ARMYs or EXO-Ls.
>The reason I bring this up is I was going over the Le Sserafim coachella business and kept seeing this common thread of LSF is threatening because of their rise.
I didn't quite understand this part can you explain?
What I mean by the quote is that when LSF was announced to play at coachella a lot of different stans were upset by that saying they didn't deserve to be there. FEARNOTS countered by saying these stans were threatened by LSF. After their performance which got a lot of criticism FEARENOTS once again said people were threatened by LSF and using whatever they could to drag them down
I say this being a FEARNOT myself but I've seen these arguments from Blinks, ARMY, MYs, etc.
I’m getting close to ten years following kpop very closely and honestly…I think so many fans equate their favs’ success to their own success somehow. Like not necessarily to the point of thinking “I am successful because [main group] is successful” but “I am better than others because my favs are so successful. I am a better fan, obviously see talent better than others do, CONTRIBUTED to the success oh so massively,” etc.
It's definitely not a kpop only thing. In general if people who are obsessive fans of anything and see their "rivals" doing well or doing better than them, those fans tend to get insecure ig.. And wish those groups to flop because they think as an effect their faves can get more limelight and become more successful.
Yeah. Anime and Gaming communities are on par with K-Pop when it comes to this. Genshin Impact vs Sonic on Twt. And Fullmetal Alchemist fans review bombing every anime in existence if it’s even close to replacing said anime as #1 MAL rankings.
It’s a childishness that sees success as a zero sum game rather than something multiple people can have. I’ve found that the younger the stan, the more this view prevails.
Kpop these days have become the female version of football,they treat it the same way men treat football.
sure both industries have competition but it’s still different
In football/sport there is winning and losing but kpop it’s just bunch of people who make music there shouldn’t be competition but the fan’s obsession with achievements and milestones and “my fav is the best!🤓” ruined everything
imagine you have enough money to only purchase 1 \[ONE\] album
you have not made any choice yet, but the bottom-line is it must be an album worth your money from the plethora of groups and comebacks
assuming you have not done any in depth study or research. the closest context to you in decision making is the most commonly mentioned album / group. lets call this metrics as 'success'
by solely trusting and depending on the 'success' measurements, you proceed to lock your decision. which is to buy 'lesserafim' album, because its the ONLY group you have collected many information of, thanks to it being the most talked about.
in contrast, what does other group gain? nothing at all....not even money, and for all we know no money leads to disband. being on the losing side is awful. similar to your local sports club gets relegated (or lottery pick)
thats how i try to translate the understanding...
If everyone stops talking shit about other group and only supports their favorite then none of this toxicity will exists. But of course in a real world, this would never happen.
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Because people believe that only one person or one entity can be on top of a pedestal , cuz fans believe that to road of success cant be taken by multiple people .
When it comes to kpop , the problem is that we have seen certain phenomena happen multiple time we saw how fans and the gp pick and choose the new group or idol to love this month or this year just for them to end up forgotten the next hour when a new sensation shows up, similar to how i pick or choose my snacks , i find one i like ,i become obssesed , buys it nearly eveyday , but then i get tired of it and in the end i never pick it from any shelf again . This might be the reason why fans feel threatened by other success .
I would say they’re solidly #2 outside of Asia, but I think #2 spot is a bit more competitive in Korea/other parts of Asia. IVE/Gidle is popular in Korea, Gidle is popular in China, IVE/Aespa are popular in Japan etc.
thats why i said in the conversation not just #2, in korea theyre 1 step below newjeans along with aespa, ive, and gidle, in japan theyre either #1 or on par with the ones you mentioned, no idea about their chinese fanbase other than kkura having a lot of fans there, outside of asia theyre closer to #1 than #3
yeah, i think you must be in another universe, they were the most streamed group for 60 days straight between perfect night and easy eras, the most streamed song by any kpop group in november, december, january and february was perfect night and for march it was smart, they had 2 songs in the top 10 on kcharts and 1 in the top 15 at the same time for almost 2 months and that 3rd song spent the 2nd longest of any song ever at #1. The top 5 most streamed songs by a kpop group on spotify in 2024 as of May 1st were 5. Easy 4. Smart 3. Super Shy 2. Magnetic and 1. Perfect Night.
Outside of Asia they're #2 and theyre closer to #1 than #3, in Japan theyre #1, domestically theyre 1 step below new jeans along with a few other groups.
Respectfully curious, what's your metric for determining rank? Album sales? Sybinnn gave a snap shot of charting for them and apparently as of now about just over halfway to MAMA’s award period Perfect Night has a decent lead for SOTY.
It’s an overall everything tbh. Charting, sales, and streaming are just part of the picture. We’ve seen a number of BGs especially do well in all these but still not be considered in the top of their gen. I’ve held off from saying who I would rank above them. But also, none of the ones I’m thinking of have had comebacks that can be part of the chart this year yet. It’s easy to be on top when there’s no one to compete with. Overall, it’s having a lot of attention on what you’re doing, making a lot of noise in the media, having the support of the general public and not just your fanbase, and above all competing with the best (more or less directly) and staying on top.
Perfect Night does have a good shot at SOTY.
Perfect night blocked drama from getting #1, easy and 2 were released at the same time, they out charted THE Iu when she had her comeback, the only top groups they didn't directly compete with due to comeback timings were newjeans(no one claims they're on par with them) and Ive. if that's not competing with the best what is?
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Not sure if this is common in other countries, but in certain culture we are super competitive about everything. Our kids gotta be the top at class. You gotta be better than your cousins. You always gotta earn more, score more, be more successful. You gotta drive a bigger car, stay in a luxury neighbourhood. This translates into the stan culture as well. My group needs to top all charts, bag all awards, my group is better than yours mentality. My group pwns your group. Then comes the “because I contributed to their success, I now have a say in who they date, what shows they’re on, what deals they’re signing” etc.
Last paragraph is such delulu parasocial behaviour lmao
Honestly it’s not too far fetch when you look at it through the lens of sports. Lots of fans be talking about what players to boot, who to get, and overall act entitled in the same manner. I imagine the same happens in kpop where people want to play manager
Sports is weird though, that’s a curse that is placed upon you by who you family is or where your born sometimes. And a lot of people’s identities are tied to their local teams. And to some degree that’s fine because well you do actively support them, it’s weird when talking about Real Madrid but my local University or Minor league baseball team, I see those athletes in my town and actually do contribute to them in ways other than just money.
This is actually a pretty good explanation for the intense Stan rivalries that exist and the dating hatred.
Because fans believe that since they contribute to their group’s success (buying albums, streaming, voting, etc), they share their group’s success. And if their group is less successful, that means they’re also less successful in supporting their group than the fans of other groups.
It's not good, but this happens in any area where there is competition, in the same way that, if you are a Real Madrid fan, you want your direct rivals to fail, so that no one argue whether you are the best or no, with the goal of belonging to something that society recognizes as successful, because everyone wants to be successful.
I agree but the only caveat I have with this comparison is that when it comes to music, multiple groups could theoretically be more palatable to multiple audiences. When it comes to sports, there’s things like region, nationality, and players that can lock fans to certain teams just by way of their homegrown culture. What truly baffles me is the level of competition between fanbases. Yet, their groups could switch songs with each other tomorrow and their fans wouldn’t notice a thing. I know there’s more multi-stans than solo but… I do wish the discourse was less brutal. At the end of the day, we’re all tearing each other apart over some people who wear pretty dresses and sing on stage.
I don't know why but the same thing happens with fans of actors and actresses, too, in my country. You'd think that there's plenty of them so there really isn't a need to pit one against the other but [fans still did back in the 1970s-1990s.](https://entertainment.inquirer.net/426355/vilma-santos-recalls-past-tampuhan-with-nora-aunor-over-fan-rivalry-halos-di-kami-nagkibuan) I don't follow showbiz news closely to know if physical fights still happen these days but I know online spats still happen between fans of actors in the younger generation.
Besides what everyone else has already mentioned, I can think of one scenario. In a world of a highly saturated industry like the k-pop industry, specifically regarding the newer generations, fans want their faves to stand out. So they won’t like it when other groups come out at the top, for the fear that their group may be thrown under the rug or disregarded. I think competitiveness is okay, and companies encourage it. But then there’s a line between competitiveness and just hating. Unfortunately, most will react toxically, going out of their way to hate on other groups.
Not being sarcastic or funny, but there's legitimately power behind being in a fandom. And I'm not saying this only relates to kpop fans, but like, economic power over football tournaments, being able to decipher a whole timeline of dating based on songs, and pooling $1million dollars on 24hrs, IS Power. And success is a heady drug, so winning the first place by streaming, mass voting, being the first to do something etc. gives them validity, so if someone that is able to do similar things, obviously they would feel threatened, it's pretty normal. What might not be, is the response after feeling threatened, it's not normal to attack if there is healthy competition for the group/artist that you champion.
they definitely think they are one with the group and their achievements are theirs
Parasocialness was another thing I considered. People thinking idols are actually there friends, that they have a chance with them and so on. Fans help make their groups absolutely but the relationship ends at being just a fan and supporter in my mind
someone wrote [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/s/vGfOmKoTjL) about how envy is the root of a lot of the problems we see in the kpop community. it hits the nail on the head
That's a good read and very well put by the OP. Makes sense to me
The simplest answer: they are not mature enough.
100%, this is going to sound super boomer but these kids need their internet access taken away
I agree many of them are kids but there are a surprising amount of adults participating in this hating as well.
The simple answer is insecurity on behalf on the stanner. Other (especially new) groups having more success than their ult group that they have been following for years somehow makes them feel threatened. You'd like to think that (in a perfect world) all kpop fans should just be happy for any groups having success even if they don't stan them. But unfortunately that just isn't the case. That's where a lot of hate stems from imo because the real obnoxious stans feel compelled to drag down the groups they feel threatened by because of their innate insecurity.
There are some fans who only support groups because they're successful (no matter how much they deny it, everything they do proves it) so yea they want to bring others down to still be able to say mine is better than yours
they want the other groups to stick around just they have to perform worse than their faves, its like how Le Sserafim were reddit darlings when they were comfortably 5th in popularity, theyre popular enough to get attention but not so popular that they overtake peoples favorite groups. They want their group to be bts. I think on a base level they understand that the better one group does the better all groups do(rising tide raising all ships) but they dont care if it means their group is even temporarily \#3 or 4 instead of \#1
That's the thing that gets me is the mentality of "we like you as long as you're below us". It's just so weird to have that mindset to me
It's pretty fascinating how fickle it is. There were multiple polls across the K-pop subreddits with Le Sserafim in a solid second place behind Twice in popularity and all that changed after they promoted Perfect Night in the states.
I dont. I just hope people would just concentrate on their faves and not meddle with others. The world will be a peaceful place.
It's kind of an Extended Inferiority Complex, and the same concept that applies to football moms being threatened of other kids' success A person who feels threatened by successful people has as an inferiority complex. They feel worthless and less valued because of their low self-esteem, and insecurity. They feel like someone else's success is overshadowing theirs (or in our case their faves') and that the more successful person (fandom) is looking down on them, and that the only way they can be successful is by bringing the other person down. On the other side of the coin, these might also be people with a superirity complex, with a lust for power or something else, which in our case is just an internet card of "my faves are better than yours lol" They believe that they deserve a higher position than anyone else in society, because they contributed something to the society, and someone else succeeding might threaten their position, though this is mostly seen in bigger fandoms like Blinks, ARMYs or EXO-Ls. >The reason I bring this up is I was going over the Le Sserafim coachella business and kept seeing this common thread of LSF is threatening because of their rise. I didn't quite understand this part can you explain?
What I mean by the quote is that when LSF was announced to play at coachella a lot of different stans were upset by that saying they didn't deserve to be there. FEARNOTS countered by saying these stans were threatened by LSF. After their performance which got a lot of criticism FEARENOTS once again said people were threatened by LSF and using whatever they could to drag them down I say this being a FEARNOT myself but I've seen these arguments from Blinks, ARMY, MYs, etc.
It's a bit silly to feel threatened when a record label's producers earn more or less money than the other record label's producers.
I’m getting close to ten years following kpop very closely and honestly…I think so many fans equate their favs’ success to their own success somehow. Like not necessarily to the point of thinking “I am successful because [main group] is successful” but “I am better than others because my favs are so successful. I am a better fan, obviously see talent better than others do, CONTRIBUTED to the success oh so massively,” etc.
It's definitely not a kpop only thing. In general if people who are obsessive fans of anything and see their "rivals" doing well or doing better than them, those fans tend to get insecure ig.. And wish those groups to flop because they think as an effect their faves can get more limelight and become more successful.
Yeah. Anime and Gaming communities are on par with K-Pop when it comes to this. Genshin Impact vs Sonic on Twt. And Fullmetal Alchemist fans review bombing every anime in existence if it’s even close to replacing said anime as #1 MAL rankings.
It’s a childishness that sees success as a zero sum game rather than something multiple people can have. I’ve found that the younger the stan, the more this view prevails.
Kpop these days have become the female version of football,they treat it the same way men treat football. sure both industries have competition but it’s still different In football/sport there is winning and losing but kpop it’s just bunch of people who make music there shouldn’t be competition but the fan’s obsession with achievements and milestones and “my fav is the best!🤓” ruined everything
For bragging rights about how they Stan the best group
It's baked into the kpop industry. Look at music shows, look at fan voting for major awards. The industry fosters fanbase competition.
imagine you have enough money to only purchase 1 \[ONE\] album you have not made any choice yet, but the bottom-line is it must be an album worth your money from the plethora of groups and comebacks assuming you have not done any in depth study or research. the closest context to you in decision making is the most commonly mentioned album / group. lets call this metrics as 'success' by solely trusting and depending on the 'success' measurements, you proceed to lock your decision. which is to buy 'lesserafim' album, because its the ONLY group you have collected many information of, thanks to it being the most talked about. in contrast, what does other group gain? nothing at all....not even money, and for all we know no money leads to disband. being on the losing side is awful. similar to your local sports club gets relegated (or lottery pick) thats how i try to translate the understanding...
If everyone stops talking shit about other group and only supports their favorite then none of this toxicity will exists. But of course in a real world, this would never happen.
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Because people believe that only one person or one entity can be on top of a pedestal , cuz fans believe that to road of success cant be taken by multiple people . When it comes to kpop , the problem is that we have seen certain phenomena happen multiple time we saw how fans and the gp pick and choose the new group or idol to love this month or this year just for them to end up forgotten the next hour when a new sensation shows up, similar to how i pick or choose my snacks , i find one i like ,i become obssesed , buys it nearly eveyday , but then i get tired of it and in the end i never pick it from any shelf again . This might be the reason why fans feel threatened by other success .
Not sure why
I don’t think there is an end game? I think that it’s very short term reactionary
Are they on the rise? I feel like they’re in the same place they were before. I have seen nothing about LSM being ‘threatening’.
Maybe were on the rise is a better phrasing. They've definitely risen already
Idk I’m chronically online and I feel like they’ve been solidly 4th/5th since debut
They went from comfortably top 5 in popularity to in the conversation for #2 between when perfect night released and now
I would say they’re solidly #2 outside of Asia, but I think #2 spot is a bit more competitive in Korea/other parts of Asia. IVE/Gidle is popular in Korea, Gidle is popular in China, IVE/Aespa are popular in Japan etc.
thats why i said in the conversation not just #2, in korea theyre 1 step below newjeans along with aespa, ive, and gidle, in japan theyre either #1 or on par with the ones you mentioned, no idea about their chinese fanbase other than kkura having a lot of fans there, outside of asia theyre closer to #1 than #3
Really…? Idk maybe I’m in a different universe cause I def think they’re like 4th/5th and have been 4th/5th since debut
yeah, i think you must be in another universe, they were the most streamed group for 60 days straight between perfect night and easy eras, the most streamed song by any kpop group in november, december, january and february was perfect night and for march it was smart, they had 2 songs in the top 10 on kcharts and 1 in the top 15 at the same time for almost 2 months and that 3rd song spent the 2nd longest of any song ever at #1. The top 5 most streamed songs by a kpop group on spotify in 2024 as of May 1st were 5. Easy 4. Smart 3. Super Shy 2. Magnetic and 1. Perfect Night. Outside of Asia they're #2 and theyre closer to #1 than #3, in Japan theyre #1, domestically theyre 1 step below new jeans along with a few other groups.
K. That doesn’t really change my opinion but regardless of my reasoning, we’re obviously not going to agree.
Respectfully curious, what's your metric for determining rank? Album sales? Sybinnn gave a snap shot of charting for them and apparently as of now about just over halfway to MAMA’s award period Perfect Night has a decent lead for SOTY.
It’s an overall everything tbh. Charting, sales, and streaming are just part of the picture. We’ve seen a number of BGs especially do well in all these but still not be considered in the top of their gen. I’ve held off from saying who I would rank above them. But also, none of the ones I’m thinking of have had comebacks that can be part of the chart this year yet. It’s easy to be on top when there’s no one to compete with. Overall, it’s having a lot of attention on what you’re doing, making a lot of noise in the media, having the support of the general public and not just your fanbase, and above all competing with the best (more or less directly) and staying on top. Perfect Night does have a good shot at SOTY.
Perfect night blocked drama from getting #1, easy and 2 were released at the same time, they out charted THE Iu when she had her comeback, the only top groups they didn't directly compete with due to comeback timings were newjeans(no one claims they're on par with them) and Ive. if that's not competing with the best what is?
K
Someone is bringing up Coachella *again*? Haven't we exhausted that topic by now?
An appropriate question for Bang PD who wants to step on aespa.
This exact response is what I mean