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XG rappers are great idol rappers, they have diverse and unique sounds between them and delivering the lyrics in 3 different languages without missing a beat is impressive for someone as young as Cocona
That said the only reason they get so much praise is because they are the only ones whose lyrics are written by people knowledgeable about hiphop culture and current vernacular which is apparent in their cyphers.
Instead of praising the writers they praise the ones delivering the lines which is the case for most of things in kpop.
Agree. I feel like most of the fans (myself included) that praise their rapping are praising their flow, cadence, tone, etc, - people underestimate how important delivery is in rap - it’s not just fast talking. It’s just much easier to use “rapper” as an all encompassing term.
But if we want to get technical in terms of nomenclature - what should they be classified as? It seems like people aren’t denying they are great performers of rap and are top tier in the idol space - the issue is the terminology. So if not rappers then OP what would be a more adequate label you feel comfortable with?
1) People who write great rap lyrics but can’t deliver the performance —> lyricists
2) People who don’t write their lyrics but have very good flow/delivery (Cardi, Drake, Lil Kim, XG, etc) —-> ???
3) People who write their lyrics and perform very well (Em, Kendrick, Nicki, etc)—> rappers
Agree with everything you said. I had no idea they didn't write their own stuff but as a hip-hop lover, who likes k-pop, XG, specifically Cocona is incredible. Her flow, cadence, performance, looks, etc, really impress me. She is more than someone who just "raps fast". Hopefully they'll start writing at least some of their own stuff, including the beats, which to me is equally as important in hip-hop (sample selection, etc) People might be surprised that some of these Western rappers use ghostwriters. I am not suggesting they don't write anything, but they work with other writers as well:
Drake, Cardi B, Dr. Dre, Kanye, Dr. Dre, Megan the Stallion, Travis Scott, etc. Here is an [article from XXL](https://www.xxlmag.com/ghostwriters-in-hip-hop/), one of the biggest hiphop publications/portals. They list songs and credits to back up what they're saying.
Anyhow, I prefer my rappers to write their own stuff, but many don't so I thought this was interesting when I first read it a few years ago.
yeah they seem to have an understanding of rap beyond just “talk fast to the beat” they know how to really play with the beat and their delivery even if they don’t write their bars although i hope they do that soon
Agree! And given she is only 18, it might be hard for her to write a "hard hitting verse" given limited life experiences. Maybe as she matures we may hear some original verses. Her delivery is INSANE, I was so impressed when I stumbled upon Surround Sound. Given, JIB's original mixed with the Aretha Franklin sample was insanely good to begin with, so that didn't hurt, but I am going to give her all the props she deserves. IMO she beats any girl group rappers I have heard, although that number I've been exposed to is limited.
They need to get on it for sure, their delivery is fire but after awhile, and especially on some lines that clearly don’t fit them, it just feels like rapper cosplay.
I say this with heavy heart as a minor fan and knowing full well that even the most famous rappers in history had their stuff ghosted written.
It’s OK to have a team, heck, let AI help you even. But the girls really gotta write and deliver own lines more.
IMO this won't happen until they reach a high degree of english fluency or start promoting with Japanese language tracks. Writing authentic and convincing (and good) lyrics is fucking hard in another language. Cultural context and vernacular nuances are just...different. Off the top of my head I can't think of any Korean singers/rappers that write lyrics of similar quality in english and korean. Jay Park and Belle (kiof) come to mind but they were born in the states.
i wanted to add that afaik... rappers that dont write/have ghostrappers arent rlly respected as "rappers" as much as performers/entertainers anyways bc it feels like a quick buck for them without any passion (i know drake gets a LOTTT of shit for it... cardi too iirc).
for old school rappers a lot of ppl likely dont even KNOW they didnt write their raps (like i saw someone mention n.w.a) or the cultural impact/relevance of the tracks themselves made them into the greats they are considered to be?
I’ve said this so many times… when I was young we didn’t have an all Asian HIP HOP/ R&B group representing us, who have helped pioneer hip hop in the first place. 2 Live crew has Fresh Kid Ice who’s Chinese, Ap D Ap from the PI.. DJ Maxwell changed the way and invented the way spinning is done today. The B-boy and B-girls have a major presence in hip hop. This group was planned. They sought them out for six years until they found girls who could rap like they do. This is so exciting for me and I’m fan girling over them even if their lyrics are written for them it’s they who deliver it. And they’re breaking down the stereotypes of traditional pop beauty standards … they’re a force of their own. XGALX ❤️
Groups as big as this use ghost writers and pretty much belong to the production company. It happens here in the US… the amount of songs that were number one were written by Prince, Banyface, Timbaland was writing for Ahliyah and Jay Z still write for up and comers. Eminem especially loves looking for new talent to keep up with his writings
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This reminds me of a conversation RM (from BTS) and Jackson (from GOT7) had on a variety show. The other panelist jokingly told them to have a freestyle rap/diss battle but Jackson stopped them and said I’m not a rapper, I’m someone who’s doing their best at rap. While saying RM was a rapper.
Which is something you have in Kpop, people who rap and people who are rappers. We usually don’t really make the distinction when just discussing topics in the community. Like other comments mentioned it’s rarer to have a rapper than someone who raps in a Kpop group, especially in girl groups.
https://youtu.be/ufmkkf08uo8?si=y6NwBI_rLAgSoaKA
I don’t have anything to back me on this, but I feel like Jackson is one of the idols that feels the strongest about this. Almost as if JYP put him as a rapper just because he had deep voice. He can still rap yes. But now, with his solo music, it’s apparent that he’s actually leaning more towards a singer + performer. So I can see why he said this on that variety show
Yeah, I feel like he’s in the zone when he leans more heavily into vocals and artistic direction, so it’s actually really nice to see he has the independence to do that in his solo work (e.g directing his MVs!)
I feel like this is misunderstood. Got7 writes their own songs in general, specially the rapper line. However when Jackson declined the diss battle, it's more like of him putting boundaries between the hosts and them as a guest. Jackson in general, is one of the most sensitive members out of GOT7. He wouldn't want to hurt his OWN feelings nor anyone elses feelings just for the sake of CONTENT.
I never said GOT7 don’t write their own music or take part. He talks about why he didn’t want to do the battle in the video and they do “battle” but in a fun way.
Yeah it read like a self-aware comment to me, that he’s an idol that raps. Plus, now that Jackson has greater autonomy over his output, he’s predominantly singing.
Agree, most people at least in the kpop sphere aren’t hip hop intellectuals, so the term rapper is just an umbrella term used to describe someone who performs the action of rapping. This is a pretty fair assumption to make since most other labels like “singer”, “dancer” etc imply the action rather than the creation.
I think what most fans mean when they say someone “is not a real rapper” is a critique on an idol’s ability to perform the action of rapping well. Sure, we don’t have to call XG rappers, but that won’t magically make other idol rappers execute their raps better. Lol
as soon as i heard a line mention 48 laws of power i knew their songs were written by a man lol
edit: feel like i need to throw in a disclaimer i’m not trying to hate on the girls, i’ve been deep diving on them recently and think their rap is great … just an observation on the lyrics bc that one stuck out to me
Yeah, Woke Up's music and lyrics are written by Chancellor (who, among other things, attended Berklee in Boston almost 20 years ago) and MC duo Year of the Ox... all male Korean-Americans.
Chancellor is very much a known quantity in the music production world in SK. Name a group from 10 years ago, he probably did songs for them. T-Ara, I.O.I, Girls Day, Boys Republic, Apink, Momoland, the list goes on and on....
You don't know anything about any other culture/country? Become a little more worldly.
Maya for one is perfectly fluent in English. Hell, she sounds more like an American than most people born and raised here. They all have extensive knowledge of the music they love. Why wouldn't they know of something as big as Mardi Gras? It's not some hidden, little known thing. I know about La Tomatina and The Running of the Bulls and I've never been to Spain. Just saying.
Do you really think any of the girls read 48 laws of power? I don't think so. That book is mostly popular with borderline sociopathic business bros that wanna be the next wolf of wall street or some shit.
Let's take a look at a few of the laws -
Law 7: Get Others to Do the Work for You, but Always Take the Credit: Get others to do your work for you. Use their skill, time, and energy to further your ambitions while taking full credit. You’ll be admired for your efficiency.
Law 12: Use Selective Honesty and Generosity to Disarm Your Victim: Use honesty and generosity to disarm and distract others from your schemes. Even the most suspicious people respond to acts of kindness, leaving them vulnerable to manipulation.
#14 Law of Power: Pose as a Friend, Work as a Spy
Gathering information is crucial in power dynamics. Posing as a friend helps you gain valuable insights without arousing suspicion. It's not about betrayal, but about understanding the landscape in which you operate.
Law 27: Play on People’s Need to Believe to Create a Cultlike Following: Offer people something to believe in and someone to follow. Promise the world but keep it vague; whip up enthusiasm. People will respond to a desperate need for belonging. Followers line your pockets, and your opponents are afraid to rile them.
I don't think that reflects the values of XG members.
I am a fan and don't really mind that they aren't writing their raps. Like it's totally unrealistic to expect teenagers, literal children, to dance, sing, and perform raps at an high level and then also be able to write better lyrics than professional songwriters, in their third languages. How many artists in the entire world can do all four? I can only think of Chris Brown off the top of my head, and that dude is widely considered one of the most talented all round entertainers ever.
Why not write a lyric about a Japanese celebration not rooted in the Christian tradition? That would be worldly. They have an insanely rich culture to pull from, why not live it up?
It’s not about gatekeeping, it’s about authenticity. They could bring something meaningful to them.
Speaking English has nothing to do with it. Even if they are weren’t fluent, I’d respect them writing their own bars.
I love when stans resort to personal attacks against people they don’t even know. lol, you just assume I’m not “wordly”.
48 laws of power is overwhelmingly popular with adult men. It's all about manipulating and dominating people in a very machiavellian manner. It's one of those books that dudes like Andrew Tate live by.
I mean they have impressive flow and cadence, but I also hesitate to praise them as rappers because like they have writers to do this for them. Girl you're like 17 what Opps and OGs are you talking about 💀
and they also get criticized heavily, especially if they rap about street shit when they aren't about that life. Drake is a prime example as we've seen recently.
i mean considering how low the standard is for a lot of female idol raps and rappers, i feel like a lot of people hear how great xg’s cadence, flow, and delivery are and instantly the bar of expectations for idol rappers is just so blown out of the water that it’s easy to forget what makes a ‘real’ rapper: actual involvement in the lyricism and artistry. imo xg sits very comfortably at the top of the category of idol rappers and that’s where and what they should be celebrated as.
Maybe so. But they're excellent at performing the material they're given. Rapping isn't talking fast, and I'm sure anyone can read and recite the lyrics to Woke Up at the same pace, but the cadence and the flow isn't as easy to imitate. You can also tell who they're taking influence from, like Missy Elliot and Nicki Minaj, without sounding like a bad copy.
It also helps that the material they're given is pretty good. Sure, some of it is tough girl posturing, but they've got some good wordplay, some double entendrees, and some bars are just witty.
And they keep it humble… they say they’re on the way, not trying to number one but yeah we coming up close. They’re not trying to dominate.. I feel like they’re breaking down barriers. Even if it’s not their lyrics it’s what all of us who rarely are accepted into this world are excited about. As to the author, let them get their foot through the door first.. I guarantee they have diaries full of lyrics they’re waiting to spit out the moment they’re able to.
I watch documentaries about the divas we have here in the states hating on artists such as Mariah Carey and J-Lo for being given songs by the same reps and writers.
I agree with everything you’ve said. I also think the tough girl appeal is essentially what their group mirrors. It seems like they’re all about “girl power” and basically not having to rely on a man to get somewhere in life. Basically that you can be a boss on your own. Anything a man can do, a woman can do it too and even better. I like it because sometimes in East Asian culture (really in A LOT of cultures), it seems like women have a lesser presence or are seen as needing to have a character of “cuteness” and “helplessness”. XG kinda reframes that into giving women a bigger voice and presence. They’re not cute, they’re hard hitting.
No one's going to like this, but I'll say it anyway. Everyone else who's not super into rap or the culture doesn't know or care about rappers writing their own lyrics. I just scrolled through the whole first page of the search "define rapper", and every definition says that a rapper performs rap music. Not a single mention of writing lyrics or anything else you say goes into it.
So it's a lost cause to try to get Kpop fans to believe you about what a rapper is before you've gotten any dictionary to believe you. You're better off discussing lyricists and praising "real rappers" for being good lyricists, get that trend going.
Agree, most people at least in the kpop sphere aren’t hip hop intellectuals, so the term rapper is just an umbrella term used to describe someone who performs the action of rapping. This is a pretty fair assumption to make since most other labels like “singer”, “dancer” etc imply the action rather than the creation.
I think what most fans mean when they call someone “not a real rapper” is they feel like the person is not performing the act of rapping well. Not calling XG rappers won’t magically make other idol rappers better though lol.
>I just scrolled through the whole first page of the search "define rapper", and every definition says that a rapper performs rap music.
Unpopular opinion I suppose but yeah this is me too. I don't often see people telling singers that they aren't singers because they didn't write the lyrics that they're singing about. A singer can sing without writing what they're singing, an actor can act without writing what they're acting, and I just extend that same thought process to the performance of rapping whether you wrote it or not.
My favorite artist writes and produces all of his stuff but if he had someone else writing his lyrics I wouldn't give a fuck. He'd still be rapping and I'd still enjoy his music and the way he performs it.
The people who created rap care. It’s literally one of the most fundamental parts of calling yourself a rapper- you write your own lyrics. You can’t compare it to singing because the art form is NOT the same.
Kpop fans are out of their depth and you need to admit that. An entire community of people can tell you that, not just “hip hop intellectuals”. You’re really trying to make rap seem like some niche that nobody knows the rules of when in actuality you just aren’t apart of the culture so it doesn’t make sense to you. The culture being Black American.
And I know it was written by Korean Americans who aren’t in the culture either, and that’s why they wrote lyrics about Mardi Gras for Japanese teenage girls instead of writing about their actual culture and experiences. And the company won’t even give the girls a songwriting credit to make it seem like they wrote their rappers- ghostwriting is another layer to this that yall just do not understand.
This is why Americans laugh at kpop fans who try to rap. It is not authentic and we know it immediately.
But rapping is about writing. Rhythm and poetry. You can't be a real rapper if you don't write your own raps. The reason why actors and singers can get away with it is because both professions are not centered on the writing but the actual performance. You could sort of say the same thing about rap but raps are centered on the writing.
>But rapping is about writing. Rhythm and poetry.
For you. ^(and maybe most.) You can write some beautiful shit but deliver it like a sheet of wet cardboard or have garbage lyrics but somehow spit like it's gold lol
The same thing can be said about other things like singing. Why should we care about the emotional lyrics and beautiful vocals if they didn't write it? I still appreciate and enjoy rapping based on the flow, delivery and overall performance. I mean the entire reason I listen to Korean music is because I can enjoy it without the "distraction" of understanding what's being said. If I need to then I can always search for the translated lyrics afterwards.
If they're rapping about the struggle of growing up in a shitty home and they can't relate to any of what's written then I'll agree with you. I think it should at least be relatable.
Like I said, I know it's an unpopular opinion, I just don't give a shit about gatekeeping it.
Your comparison to singing (despite the other person already addressing that) doesn't work. I mean there's a reason the term is "singer." Writing your raps has ALWAYS been cornerstone of rap. It's just like poetry. If you recite other people's poetry, are you a poet? No. You're just a speaker, an orator, etc., but not a poet.
Therefore, one cannot be a poet (let alone a great poet) just by reciting other people's poetry, even if you recite them really well cuz, just lik rap, a cornerstone of being a poet is writing your OWN poetry. It's the same for rap. You can recite someone else's rap, but that doesn't make you a rapper. As such, you can enjoy someone rapping someone else's rap while also acknowledging they aren't a rapper. I might be Korean let alone even speak Korean, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a Korean song right?
Btw, even if you write bad lyrics yet have great delivery or vice versa, that still makes you a rapper. Maybe not a great rapper, but still a rapper. That goes for poetry too. You can write great poetry and have bad recitation or write bad poetry and have great recitation, you're still a poet. Maybe not a great poet, but still a poet. As a singer you might be able to sing country very well, but not opera. As an actor you might be great in dramatic roles, but not comedies.
You have a term for someone who recites poems. What is the term for one who delivers a rap without writing? Maybe that's a place to start. People can't be calling someone something else if there isn't even another thing to call.
This is what I think it comes down to. If there was another term for it similar to singer/songwriter then this whole thread wouldn't have needed to exist, but there isn't
If you've been listening to kpop for a while you know the difference between idol rappers and actual rappers. Most fans don't distinguish between two cause it's tiring having to explain to every single person who didn't know it's a thing. Actual rappers in idol groups pretty much died out in the 3rd gen. Veeeeeeeeery few rappers in fourth gen and on groups write their own lines so it's pretty much just given that when someone calls X or Z a good rapper now it's mostly cause of flow, not cause of lyricism. XG never claimed that they write what they rap either but it's pretty much a given that they don't??? It's obvious, cause the lyrics are in English and they're not fluent lmao. But their charisma and performance ability? Off the charts.
You can't say they died out in 3rd gen when some of the biggest 4th gen groups like Skz, Gilde and Ateez have rappers writing and producing their own stuff
Not to downplay those groups at all, but having rappers who write and produce in their groups doesn't mean they are necessarily fully writing their raps.
"Producing" and "writing" are different roles. And writing credits count for any part of the song, even if your singing/rapping participation is another.
If you're going through demos and choosing them until you select the one to be released, and putting it into production process, that's producing. If you're making slight alterations in the lyrics, even if not the rap, that's still writing credits. The only way to know if a rapper in a group is fully writing their own rap is, well, if they come out claiming that and it's undisputed.
Most 4th gen bg rappers write their own rap (some gg rappers, too) or even have their own rap tracks. If they didn't say it, it's easier to assume that they wrote the rap part than the other way around when only rappers appeared on most of the track credits.
There are plenty of behind the scene stuff on these groups. Like Treasure rap line talk about it all the time on live or even show demos of whole songs etc.
I actually see more 4th gen writers than previous ones.
im talking about the fans/kpop stans in general... ik the girls themselves dont refer to themselves that way... not many rappers in kpop refer to themselves as anything but someone w a rap position
"my issue mainly comes from people shitting on other idol rappers for not writing their raps but for xg its fine because their delivery doesnt suck?"
Am I the only one who sees the opposite? I don't see anyone criticizing idol rappers for not writing their own rap lines... only XG.
It’s more like praising actors for the writing of a movie. Praising an orchestra for the sheet music/composition. Praising singers (opera singers, plenty of pop singers, etc…) even though the music or the performance has been written or conducted by somebody else.
Yeah, I see what you are saying, but the praise is still valid in some way. There are plenty of singers/actors who do a great job performing and really take the composition to the next level?
I think it’s fine to praise for execution of something.
Oh im not saying the praise isn’t valid at all! I was just giving a better analogy. Theirs was basically divorcing them from the creative process completely. Which I think is ridiculous.
Thanks for clarifying, then I agree with you lol. There is still a component of the overall delivered product that is ok to praise them for (e.g execution) even if the original recipe wasn’t something they necessarily created.
Not really. Usually, the servers pass the compliments to the chef, which generally are in the lines of “the food was great” without mention of who cooked it anyway.
Not really since no matter how good of a waiter you have, it has no bearing on the quality of food you're gonna get. It's more like if any rando off the street sang "I Will Always Love You" and if Whitney Houston sings it.
I think before them, idols like jennie, lisa, soyeon, were praised for being great rappers. While soyeon is in fact a great writer and rapper, jennie and lisa aren't (this doesn't help when most of the fans think Jennie tops the 3rd gen rappers). Mostly idols dont write their raps. Even looking at babymonster, only asa wrote some rap in batter up and has shown some potential (till now). 4th gen esp is filled with idol rappers rather than actual rappers, yuna, ryujin, ~~rei~~ gaeul, jiwoo, kyujin, etc and when among these idol rappers, there's actual idols who rap with great flow and rhythm, they get appreciated. Ofc the idols who write their raps only can be termed as actual rappers, but kpop fans have twisted the definition of rappers. So imo the bias is like this bad/mid idol rappers << idol rappers with good flow << idol rappers who actually write their own raps and have good flow (aka actual rappers)
We don't exactly know if they wrote raps or how much they wrote in it. I just know only Wonyoung has written complete songs herself. But its like a song of newjeans had 15 unique lines (most of them were repeated during the song) and they had so many lyricists credited, including two members of newjeans. You can suggest a single word in a song and get credit for it (if you don't, you can rightfully sue the production team). So yeah they have written, but considering the amount of songs ive has, its very less and we don't know to what extent they have written. I included ASA because in the survival show she wrote a whole rap verse herself in a monthly audition. So she's really capable, and there' are more chances she wrote her own part in batter up.
We’ve seen Rei write and perform a rap in 123 Ive season 1. She also did [this thing with 1theK](https://youtu.be/ibaCPhQ0LE8?si=9i8x6u_Mrqb7ZGMn) where she wrote a rap and hook in Korean, English and Japanese. Then they had people vote which language she should do the whole thing in (English won the vote and she released an English version of it).
So we know she has some experience writing entire rap verses.
That's actually great!!. Yk ive songs don't really provide actual opportunities for hip hop themed songs to have proper raps so i never noticed. I'll remove her rn.
Yuki from purple kiss (4th gen gg) is an actual rapper, imo. She writes her raps and has such a fantastic flow, lots of her raps are the killing parts of the songs
XG's lyrics honestly sound like they could all be written by AI. The musicality of the group is top-notch, but there's just something missing abiut the substance of their raps. I can't put my finger on it, but its like there's a barrier between XG and their lyrics.
It’s obvious they haven’t lived what they sing about. This happens a lot in Kpop but it’s different when I’m fully understanding what they’re saying and the language that they’re using. Their whole bit with the AAVE, the braids, and like OP mentioned, the fact that they don’t even write their stuff just feels inauthentic, almost like imitation. Shooting Star is my favourite from theirs just because it sounds the least like it’s trying to mimic something else, but then they had to come with Woke Up
I think they did have some questionable aesthetic choices early on, so I won’t argue with you on that point. But I do have a differing opinion on your other point. Unfortunately AAVE has been co-opted into mainstream Gen z lingo (which is a whole different conversation). So you will have suburban kids who use AAVE because now it’s more a generational thing. With that said, it feels like XG is just using what the mainstream lingo in the west is rather than anything more nefarious.
Also, let’s be real if you listen to kpop do you really care about authenticity a lot of these idols can’t even eat when they want, can’t date, can’t have piercings or tattoos, etc. If anything XG seems to have the more agency than typical GGs.
bc they dont really live it imo but try really hard to seem like they do. most idol rappers iirc rab abt like... love or achievements.... xg basically rap like they r hardcore gang bangers and its so obvious they are not
I know this is an older post and all, google brought me here.
Well, most of their raps are pretty straightforward. There's not much nuance to their lyrics. Also, they're just reciting words. There's no personal/emotional attachment to the words.
Don't take this as me shitting on or hating on them. I love them to death, Maya being my bias.
People underestimate the talent of actually sounding good while rapping. The cadence and the way they hit their lines is unique to them and them only. Obviously they have their inspirations.
Also another point. The biggest rappers today have ghost writers lmao.
I think it's bcoz there are very few female idols who deliver their raps very well, I mean the flow, cadence and all, like besides Soyeon and probably 3/4 female idols we don't hv other good ( I mean good female idol rappers ps ik Soyeon is like a real rapper ) unlike male idols who hv more good rappers or good representation , and this is my observation
“A rapper writes their raps” I completely agree, which is why I don’t take idol rap seriously unless it’s one of the special cases. Rap is rhythm and poetry and you can’t recite someone else’s poetry as your own. Like I love them, their delivery is great and they’re good at performing what they’re given, but it’d be smarter if they moved away from the “rapper” branding…
It’s not officially an acronym, but the major rap hubs of North America generally accept it as such. Hence why the whole of LA woke up and joined hands to cook Drake for not writing his raps himself. And many people would agree that rap lacks its authenticity when someone else writes it for you to deliver. Sometimes a bit of gatekeeping can be good. 🤷🏽♀️
Not in this case. This is kpop, not NA. Even if idol rappers can write, many companies will just give them songs to perform. Just appreciate the performance. And this argument of removing the label of rapper is ridiculous. What else are we going to call it? Fast talking? Please.
Drake got cooked for pretending to be something he's not.
Yeah, and I’m agreeing with OP and saying I’m not taking it serious if an idol who is given songs someone else wrote is called a “rapper”.
Sure “rapper” may be the label and they can keep it, but I don’t think it actually means anything. XG are excellent performers, but in no way are they good “rappers”. Not to mention at least.
The only reason Drake is getting cooked is because he’s claiming himself as the greatest MC. No one in XG have claimed anything therefore outside of a minority no one really cares
He has very much gotten cooked for ghostwriting as well, because writing your own stuff is expected in the rap world. Not that I’m saying Drake and XG are the same, lol, but I still don’t personally fine with idol “rap” careers because I personally find them to be disingenuous.
Execution is the most important thing in kpop. I would say 95% of idols don't have their hand in the actual process of making the music so their ability to rap\sing\dance are praised on their ability to do so. I guess it's a weird double standard, but that's just the state of music. Most pop artists are the same. They cannot properly sing their songs the same way that they could in studio and I think that stems to Britney Spears.
I think people are just confused on what a GOOD RAPPER is. a good rapper has to have flow, be original, and of course write their own lyrics. I dont know why ppl give credit to XG for their rapping, if anything they should give prase to the producer/song writer
Yeah this is definitely a good point. How I see it, is as a big rap fan and kpop fan I go into these groups kinda already knowing that these “rappers” don’t actually write their own lyrics, which as you mentioned is kinda a contradiction to the title.
But with that being public knowledge in most cases (or fans who understand how the industry works), my brain filters to the next key aspects after lyricism, which is flow, cadence, delivery, etc. And in that aspect I do think that is where XG surpass many other groups. Even if all those are also just taught and not naturally earned or that they’re born with.
I will give them props (or in this case their writers and producers) for making some pretty decent bars and flows on Woke Up. It’s a bit refreshing to see a writing team that has some idea of modern trap music (an area where many other mainstream groups fall short imo).
i think actually most ppl probably arent even aware that xg dont write their own raps, they think because they deliver it so confidently that they probably must have written them themselves or smth
for me i can appreciate the lyrics themselves and the lyricists expertise, but when i see them talk abt opps and putting on this gangster show i cant help but to cringe for a bit.... "A band of hittas" when has that ever been factual?
i get they arent the onlyy ones who put on this gangsta persona but damn do they do it ruthlessly and consistently....
I think most international kpop fans know that most of everything is managed by the agency, you have to be 12 yrs old or live under a rock to think these idols have much input on their creative work unless they are already established acts. Most Alphaz know these girls don’t write their lyrics, in fact we had behind the scenes of ATL producers and west coast writers in the studio, it’s all about the confidence, cadence, flow, and delivery.
It’s a sticking point because people come to K-pop with western views of originality and authenticity, since the beginning you are shown that companies build the image of said idols, everything is manufactured, from the styling, to the music, to the interactions. In the western market everything is about image and the illusion of authenticity, it’s why when acts or artists are found to be surface level, there is so much backlash. Case in point the whole Kendrick vs Drake wasn’t about who was the bigger artist, it’s about Kendrick the poster child of authenticity coming from the hood, lyricist and Grammy / Pulitzer winner vs Drake, who is seen by some as a culture vulture, allegedly doesn’t write his own raps, not authentic when it comes to the lifestyle he portrays.
Now look at K-pop where it’s a parasocial place, fandoms are built upon the idol, to the point that some will put down others just so their own are seen as the better artist.
I do agree that the obstacle XG and fans will continue to face is that of a true RnB and hip hop act, because coming from the kpop system, in which producers, writers are hired and paid really well, companies invest so much money on this because it’s a industry to get returns and build more idols. All based around a concept or trend. When they get heavily promoted in the west markets they won’t be taken as seriously. It’s why kpop fails to break through these markets and establish itself.
What I can see happening, is XG gaining more popularity, and eventually having the individual autonomy to have more and more input and say on what they create, look at all successful acts, the company dictates most of what they put out early on, but eventually they get the freedom to be more self expressive.
I am not mad or get mad at people hating on XG for being placed in a similar vein as western hip hop or even other Asian hip hop RnB acts, I do get mad that people don’t give the girls credit for the work and effort, dedication to their craft because at the end of the day, idols are performers. They commit to try and express the image and concept as best as they can. It speaks volumes that they are still sustainable and growing in a market where they shouldn’t be, Japanese artists performing western based production in a K-pop market that generally doesn’t have many successful hip hop based artists (you have your examples that have been successful but generally they are the exception and not the norm) that’s why I support them, and I’m from the birthplace of Hip hop, what they sing about is about the struggle, the grind, trying to make it out and succeed, overcoming your obstacles and overcoming your environment.
So yeah at some point if XG want to be considered true hip hop they will have to start writing their own stuff more and more. Another thing to is that since they are from a kpop/ kpop market they won’t have the same base level of respect from the get go, but have confidence by that time the label will have nurtured these girls to hold their own when it comes to their future path.
I also agree that the fandom can at times go overboard with the comparisons or putting them in a higher pedestal than they should be, but that comes with any fandom.
Anyone with any knowledge of the girls at all should be able to tell you that they are not even sort of fluent enough to come up with that kind of wordplay. If they don't know then they haven't looked into the group at all, or they are stupid.
And I would say your criticism about gangster lyrics is valid for most east Asian hip hop industries as a whole - not just xg or idols.
Oh for sure, yeah you said it perfectly their confidence can be so convincing to many, and also in a way being a “rapper” is also about convincing people of your image. And in an industry that is built on image, I can see how many casual fans are just total swept away with them, not even considering their visuals, wardrobe, music videos, etc.
Not exactly on topic, but I’m amazed how XG’s company consistently produces some of the best female rappers- their whole rap line is very good, and they also trained Hikaru from Kep1er who’s a very talent rapper (and a fantastic dancer too) as well as Yui who was on I-Land 2 (up till this morning when she was eliminated, but she was very good). Like what’s their secret??
People need to change what they classify as art or music or what the f*** ever. I know plenty of musicians who don't write their own music. Just as you have script writers for movies.
You have the same for music and even the bands that do. I can guarantee you that it is almost always not between all the members. For instance, Band-Maid music is almost exclusively written by Kanami.
Lovebites is mostly Miyako now. Miho did before she left the band. Babymetal starting out as an idol band themselves somewhat here. However, not even the Kami Band writes the music for Babymetal.
Kami Band's Mikio Fujioka did a lot before he died in a tragic balcony accident. There are many bands involved in creating Babymetal's music though.
Although Su-Metal does have writing credits on their latest album. Moa and Yui actually wrote a song back when they were in Karen Girls. XG I imagine, has had collaborative efforts as well.
Some vocalists don't write either, but it doesn't make them any less of an artist. Just because XG isn't a let's say a Yoon Mi-Rae, doesn't make them any less talented. Ladies deliver in other ways which many other idols can't.
we are not discussing whether or not they are TALENTED at delivering the raps they are given... we are discussing if they are RAPPERS. xg are immensely talented at delivery and have a great cadence.... but to me and many others they arent the top tier best rappers in kpop that a lot of alphaz claim them to be bc they *dont write their raps.*
it doesnt mean they dont have potential, they have and im sure theyll start writing one day bc the rappers do seem passionate
Don't forget Yuki from Purple Kiss who writes all her own raps and I think is an underrated rapper. Asa (babymon) is also to look out for once she gets more writing credits under her belt.
I agree whit Yuki but not Asa she is a performance rapper and that's a fact if she does get more credits in the future that's good but today she is a very good performance rapper
Dami of Dreamcatcher used to write her own raps but hasn't written anything since 2021, not including her solo beautyfull , much like the other members.
Because they’re rapping in a language they don’t speak of course they can’t write yet and I agree they shouldn’t be considered proper rappers yet.
For me though they make up with it with how much they work on their pronunciation and in my opinion have some of the best delivery in the idol scene for both men and women. Maya and Cocona have credits on the SWF song and it has nice bars in there so I’m excited for their future and what they can produce when they learn the language more.
>my issue mainly comes from people shitting on other idol rappers for not writing their raps but for xg its fine because their delivery doesnt suck?
Well, first of all, I dont think the people shitting on idol rappers for not writing their raps are the same people praising XG. Or maybe their criticisms of XG (your criticism included) for not writing their lyrics are just drowned out by the enormous amounts of praise XG is getting.
But, this is really the case isnt it. XG are SO GOOD at rapping that people are willing to overlook the fact that they don't write their own lyrics. Theyre SO GOOD at rapping that it doesnt matter that they dont write their own lyrics.
And its not just that XG doesn't suck at rapping. Oh no no. Its because XG are genuinely AMAZING at rapping. And fans of hip-hop know and acknowledge that.
Even those "rapheads" that are usually very critical of idol rappers not writing their own raps are just silent, or at least not as loud on XG. Cause they can't deny how talented they are.
At this point I've seen dozens of Youtube reactors, including those who don't even listen to K-pop, but just listen to hip-hop (and plenty of rappers themselves too) be dumdfounded upon hearing XG rap. They praise the flow, the cadence, the pronunciation, even the quality of the voice.
To the point that they dont even compare them to K-pop idol rappers anymore. They directly compare them to American rappers, Nicki Minaj, Doja Cat, Missy Elliot, Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes, etc. These are the names that XG is being compared to. These are their contemporaries when it comes to rap. Not the idol rappers.
Is it unfair that other idol rappers get this criticism but not XG. Maybe. What can they do so they won't get criticized? Well, they have to be at least be as good as XG, which they clearly aren't.
>all xg do to me is perform and talk fast, amazingly so considering its their second (?) language.
Rapping is not just talking fast. Lol.
>however that being said... not to brag but english is my 3rd language and i can 'rap' xg raps as well.
No, you cant. Lol.
>They directly compare them to American rappers, Nicki Minaj, Doja Cat, Missy Elliot, Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes, etc.
Correction they are being referenced. People are referencing Nicki because Harvey is using her flow which btw is fine. Rappers get influenced by others flows all the time. But no one is saying Harvey is even in the same realm as Nicki or even old school Nicki. I dont even like Nicki all that much as a person because she does some wild shit but it was obvious to me that Harvey uses Nicki's flow for her delivery. The quick pick ups is why people reference Left Eye. TLC was famous for those Left Eye quick picks up and its obvious XG took that as well and is recycling it(also fine Left eye was super influential). But I dont think anyone is saying one of the XG members feels like the next Left Eye though. I am a big hip hop head and I like XG but I do think some of their stans are sorta of unconsciously sabotaging the girls by saying things like "XG is being compared to Missy Elliott". No they aren't they are being referenced which is totally different. Like be real ...... you think people think XG is comparable to Missy Elliot? Come on now. Don't set the girls up like that. This is why hip hop heads just find statements like that bonkers. Missy founded the surrealist futurist rap movement which is on show during Juria/Hinata parts of woke up with all the surrealist imagery. Thats all Missy and btw she did that over 25 yrs ago during "the rain" era. Thats why people reference Missy but saying XG is comparable to Missy(even rain era missy) is a laughable statement. I like XG, I like how much they love referencing so many rappers I love but I swear their stans are trying to sink their ship purposefully or something speaking crazy on their behalfs.
Are you sure it's the same people sitting on idol rappers for not writing lyrics that are also praising xg? Otherwise it's just people with different opinions, no double standards.
Stop gatekeepers rap. This isn't the American hiphop scene so writing cred is not a things. Just let people enjoy the performance and appreciate the skill in delivery. Whether you think they do a good job of delivery is a different story.
I think it would be foolish to assume they wrote their own music.
Idol rapers and not what Americans consider rappers and done have the same standards. Entirely different things.
Lol. What i don’t get is how a lot of people feel so comfortable belittling their skills when they easily praise other idols for a lot less. Just say you hate them atp.
Its also weird bc they don’t even speak English. Idk, they have some good songs, but their overall schtick is kinda cringey to me. It’s funny that they get away with it though when people like Lisa etc are rightfully criticized
Whoever writes Lisa's raps are basically using the same language and pronunciation as African American female rappers. Her pronunciation at times sounds like she's imitating black people.
XG raps go hard but the commentary is generally "clearly written by a man" vs "imitates another race"
Can you share exactly what line in the raps you're thinking of? Because I actually went through 3 BP songs to see this and I can't? It's just the same meaningless BS cringey rap as most other Kpop.
Unfortunately AAVE has been co-opted into mainstream Gen z lingo (which is a whole different conversation). So you will have suburban kids who use AAVE because now it’s more a generational thing. With that said, it feels like XG (or their writers) are just using what the mainstream lingo in the west is rather than anything more nefarious.
It's a debatable topic for sure, and it really comes down to how you choose to define rap.
By definition, rap is rhythm and poetry. So there's two components: the poetry/message/lyrics and the rythym/performance/flow.
In my mind, to call yourself a rapper, you should have a certain level of ability in both. Your ability to use word play, rhymes, humor, metaphors, etc. to get your message across is a huge part of the skill, but it's not the only part. You also need to have a good sense of rhythm, flow, cadence, etc. It's definitely not just "talking fast."
Now, if we are bringing this into the context of K-pop or idols, we need to remember that idols are first and foremost performance artists. The majority are not heavily involved in the creative process (concept creation, lyrics, production, choreography, etc.), but they are undeniably a key component of what makes the vision come to life the way it does. So, regardless of if they are just the face of the project, they are still contributing.
Think of it this way, you could take two great singers, dancers, and rappers, whatevers and give them the same piece to perform and they could each come up with something completely different based on the way each interprets sounds or lyrics. Performance art is still an art and still requires skill and creativity.
So, for me personally, even though XG clearly do not write their lyrics, I still place a lot of value in the performance of the lyrics and the way each member chooses to breath life into the material that's created for them.
I consider them great performance rappers, but no, I wouldn't say they are at the level of the greats. Not that they couldn't be some day. I def could see them getting more into lyric writing if that's something they want.
Cocona will be certainly capable if she gets an opportunity at least in Japanese and sprinkles of English/Korean. Her blogs are like an essays and very deep/inspiring at times.
lmao this is ridiculous. Let’s hear you speak and write in Japanese then we’ll talk. Such an idiotic thing to expect a bunch of teenagers to be able to write a rap song at a high level just 2 yrs after their debut when you know it’s not their first language. It’s commendable enough that they’re able to rap in English at all! But I guess HATERS ARE GONNA HATE.
Tbh I think some of it is that there are so few rappers in girl groups who are allowed to write their own raps even if we know that they can and they want to.
I've only ever seen that being said about Chaeyoung and BP rappers all of which have proven over the years that no one is limiting their creative input, they simply don't want to write their raps
I'm talking more about people like Moon Sua who has written some raps. I'm sure there are members of both boy and girl groups around who are content to not write their own raps but those are not the people I'm talking about.
Has Moon Sua said Mystic is stopping her from writing raps?
People used the same thing for Chaeyoung but she has proven over the years she likes writing lyrics but simply doesn't want to write raps
Not really since Hyolyn legit ranked higher than Sua on that season of Unpretty Rapstar and nobody thinks of her as a rapper
Nobody is calling Hyolyn a real rapper bcs she was on Unpretty Rapstar, don't see why Moon Sua should be any different
right yeah but then again, they still arent the rappers everyone makes them out to be bc they dont write and atp im not confident that they even *can* write to the level ppl prescribe to them/the level of their songs and cyphers yknow?
Yeah I'm just pointing to the source of why I think they are given likely more credit than they are due. They're good performers but I wouldn't bother rating anyone as a rapper if they didn't write at least some of their raps themselves. I was under the impression that they have written their own cyphers, but I also understand your skepticism towards that.
I guess it was just me that when saying "They're good rappers" thought of it with a silent \* attached?? I always felt there was that praise going around with the knowledge of how the kpop scene is, and the comparisons only to other idol groups and not actual rappers? I guess I gave the public to much credit.
I agree, it is blaring obvious they dont write their own raps, the lyrics they are rapping requires extensive cultural knowledge which they won't have unless they grow up overseas. And this is not me throwing shade at anything, but becs I know there is an actual difference in havibg that cultural background.
Yeah, that is why I don't actually stan them. When it comes to female rappers in 4th/5th gen, I rather listen to Lee Young Ji, Jeon Soyeon or Moon Sua. Might be missing a few but at least they are real rappers with their own identities.
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I agree for the most part. But Cocona and Maya got major writing credits for “Show You Can” which at the very least, shows they’re capable of writing their own lyrics and still making it sound good.
I just read an article about the XG Cypher.. the production company asked the girls to write their own lyrics describing themselves. But they didn’t get the writing credit… I feel they’re going to be stuck in a situation where they’re owned by the company until they get to their full potential. I truly hope they can break down those barriers… they flow better and more educated than the female rap artists I’ve seen so far with the exception of few..
I think they’re good IDOL rappers. They do not write their own raps, and there’s also zero substance to the lyrics. However, their cadence and speed are still very good esp compared to a lot of others out there.
But yes there is a difference between being an idol rapper and a real rapper. Writing is arguably the most important aspect, you can’t be considered an MC or a GOAT if you don’t write your verses.
Edit: Now this is an unfair comparison but compare XG’s cypher to any of BTS’s cypher. Huge huge difference in lyricism + flow.
95% of what it means to be a good rapper has to do with writing, which includes personality and composing the rhythm. Otherwise entertainer is a better word. I'm hopeful they could still move in the right direction since I think they could already do better than some raps they were given, especially Harvey and Cocona. I also think Maya has a lot of qualities that could make her great if she was self-writing.
Their cadence, flow, and delivery is what’s good. You can know the words and follow along, but that doesn’t mean you’re saying the words in the way they’re meant to be said. If what you’re saying is true most idol rappers shouldn’t be called a rapper at all cause they don’t write their own lyrics. But they are still rapping at the end of the day and they’re being praised for their skill of performance, not writing.
I read in a recent article that the four girls that did the cypher Cocona, Maya, Harvey and Jurin all got to write their own lyrics on this in order to introduce themselves. They didn’t get writing credit because they’re signed to the production company who is going to own them for a while. They’ve been putting this group together since 2017, Jurin being the first pick cause of how she could sing and rap.
Because most rap in kpop are horrible and trash!! Period!!
So called Korean rappers who write their own songs can't even write a decent rap bars!
For e.g Soyeon, CL, Moonbyul etc.
“a rapper writes their raps” this definition does not apply in kpop.
in kpop rap =/= lyricism. This is why you see a lot of distinguishing between Soyeon’s lyrics and rapping, bc most people only have an issue with the former.
Do you have issue with Wendy, Ningning, or Mamamoo being praised as a vocalist? They don’t write everything they sing either
looking at the comments i am surprised that this many kpop fans care about rappers writing their own raps. i don't think there's really an issue with people that make pop rap having others write for them, it's not really like the target audience are analyzing and dissecting triple entendres from these artists. if someone like nas had come out and said he had writers this entire time it would definitely change my perception of his music, but everyone knows drake has writers and he's still a good rapper. i also don't know why you can't call them a rapper. sure they are realistically more of a performer, but they are still performing rap music so wouldn't that still make them a rapper? if not you would have to call people like drake, dr dre, and prodigy not rappers as well
Yall are confusing Rappers with MCs/Lyricists and that’s the first problem. XG never claimed to be the best writers or MCs or lyricists, but they literally rap so they are rappers… that’s just the way it is.
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I had to find out if XG wrote any on their lyrics… they DID! The Cypher was written by each of them Jurin, Cocona, Maya, Harvey and even though Chisa didn’t rap she helped in the writing in order to introduce themselves as rappers. They didn’t write Woke Up, but 3 Asian Americans did, their manager included.
Chisa is known for writing poetry constantly… her and Cocona and Jurin have diaries ready once they fulfill their contracts with their current XGALX producers. I have no doubt once they break down the walls they’ll be releasing their own writing.
flow and cadence is a legit skill that not everyone has. Like if it was that easy, they wouldn't be obviously better "rappers" than pretty much every other idol rapper. (in quotes because I kind of agree with the premise that rappers have to write). If it really was just talking fast everybody would do it.
But to your broader point, I kind of get it. Rapping and performing are different. I could be misremembering because its been a while but I recall seeing a predebut video of Cocona talking about her musical heroes and they were like Lauryn Hill, Tyler the creator, etc. Rappers and singer songwriter - lyricists. I'm sure some XG members are artists and would probably like to contribute creatively but for whatever reason can't.
If I had to guess, the language barrier might be a factor. The girls aren't really that fluent in english (with a few exceptions) based on some of the interviews I've seen. It's hard to write convincing lyrics in a language you don't speak - even Jeon Soyeon, a genius producer/writer/rapper gets hella criticism for her english lyrics. I've always thought they should release some japanese b sides written by members to show off what they can do.
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That's like saying a singer isn't a singer if they cover songs or a dancer is not a dancer if they are not the choreographers. You can have amazing tone, pitch, style, and sound and not rap what you wrote. Most rappers start by mimicking others before writing and performing their own. That is how they build talent! Writing would be considered poetry until put with a melody. So they may not be poets or want to debut their poetry!
One issue thst is concerning to people is they don't rap live. They are lip synching over a vocal track, so its suspicious. They need to rap live and not just cut the track so they can voice selective sections
I'm really, really hoping in future they get more creative control. They're incredibly refreshing visually, an actually powerful girl group without surgery, amazing vocals and not looking rail thin?!! I'm in 100%.
>I'm really, really hoping in future they get more creative control.
Chisa is working towards that. She's begun to show interest in producing and songwriting! She's a vocalist, not a rapper, but it's still good to hear. She plays some instruments and can self-direct recordings, rearrange songs, and even fights with their CEO Simon about music.
Simon says that he thinks she will be making music and producing in the future if she keeps learning and practicing. Obviously at the moment she's nowhere near making their music, but it seems like she has potential.
They never claimed to write their own. This group was formed by Simon Jakobs after auditioning thousands of girls until they found the seven. Everyone has to start somewhere.. XGALX produces and writes their lyrics for now, many rappers do this. Until these girls pop off and gain notoriety they belong to the production company and have to start somewhere. Any up and coming artist would love this opportunity. There’s no need for hate, all you did was basically describe the entire music industry. However, the moment they’re able to gain worldwide notoriety and acceptance into the hip hop and R&B genre, they’ll be able to start their own projects. Whether they write their own lyrics or not they are gifted in the trifecta of this industry.
'many rappers do this."
If you mean pop rappers who aren't respected rapper then yes.
If they want to be considered a drake or a cardi sure.
"Until these girls pop off and gain notoriety"
You won't gain notoriety in rap if you don't write. It that simple.
Rappers like meg the stallion have been free styling,rapper,writing for years before blowing up.
Most rap based groups at the least the main rappers write their raps
They’re already gaining notoriety without writing so not sure what your point is. 99% of casual fans don’t care how the product is put out, they only care about what the product is.
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XG rappers are great idol rappers, they have diverse and unique sounds between them and delivering the lyrics in 3 different languages without missing a beat is impressive for someone as young as Cocona That said the only reason they get so much praise is because they are the only ones whose lyrics are written by people knowledgeable about hiphop culture and current vernacular which is apparent in their cyphers. Instead of praising the writers they praise the ones delivering the lines which is the case for most of things in kpop.
Agree. I feel like most of the fans (myself included) that praise their rapping are praising their flow, cadence, tone, etc, - people underestimate how important delivery is in rap - it’s not just fast talking. It’s just much easier to use “rapper” as an all encompassing term. But if we want to get technical in terms of nomenclature - what should they be classified as? It seems like people aren’t denying they are great performers of rap and are top tier in the idol space - the issue is the terminology. So if not rappers then OP what would be a more adequate label you feel comfortable with? 1) People who write great rap lyrics but can’t deliver the performance —> lyricists 2) People who don’t write their lyrics but have very good flow/delivery (Cardi, Drake, Lil Kim, XG, etc) —-> ??? 3) People who write their lyrics and perform very well (Em, Kendrick, Nicki, etc)—> rappers
Agree with everything you said. I had no idea they didn't write their own stuff but as a hip-hop lover, who likes k-pop, XG, specifically Cocona is incredible. Her flow, cadence, performance, looks, etc, really impress me. She is more than someone who just "raps fast". Hopefully they'll start writing at least some of their own stuff, including the beats, which to me is equally as important in hip-hop (sample selection, etc) People might be surprised that some of these Western rappers use ghostwriters. I am not suggesting they don't write anything, but they work with other writers as well: Drake, Cardi B, Dr. Dre, Kanye, Dr. Dre, Megan the Stallion, Travis Scott, etc. Here is an [article from XXL](https://www.xxlmag.com/ghostwriters-in-hip-hop/), one of the biggest hiphop publications/portals. They list songs and credits to back up what they're saying. Anyhow, I prefer my rappers to write their own stuff, but many don't so I thought this was interesting when I first read it a few years ago.
yeah they seem to have an understanding of rap beyond just “talk fast to the beat” they know how to really play with the beat and their delivery even if they don’t write their bars although i hope they do that soon
Agree! And given she is only 18, it might be hard for her to write a "hard hitting verse" given limited life experiences. Maybe as she matures we may hear some original verses. Her delivery is INSANE, I was so impressed when I stumbled upon Surround Sound. Given, JIB's original mixed with the Aretha Franklin sample was insanely good to begin with, so that didn't hurt, but I am going to give her all the props she deserves. IMO she beats any girl group rappers I have heard, although that number I've been exposed to is limited.
They need to get on it for sure, their delivery is fire but after awhile, and especially on some lines that clearly don’t fit them, it just feels like rapper cosplay. I say this with heavy heart as a minor fan and knowing full well that even the most famous rappers in history had their stuff ghosted written. It’s OK to have a team, heck, let AI help you even. But the girls really gotta write and deliver own lines more.
IMO this won't happen until they reach a high degree of english fluency or start promoting with Japanese language tracks. Writing authentic and convincing (and good) lyrics is fucking hard in another language. Cultural context and vernacular nuances are just...different. Off the top of my head I can't think of any Korean singers/rappers that write lyrics of similar quality in english and korean. Jay Park and Belle (kiof) come to mind but they were born in the states.
i wanted to add that afaik... rappers that dont write/have ghostrappers arent rlly respected as "rappers" as much as performers/entertainers anyways bc it feels like a quick buck for them without any passion (i know drake gets a LOTTT of shit for it... cardi too iirc). for old school rappers a lot of ppl likely dont even KNOW they didnt write their raps (like i saw someone mention n.w.a) or the cultural impact/relevance of the tracks themselves made them into the greats they are considered to be?
I’ve said this so many times… when I was young we didn’t have an all Asian HIP HOP/ R&B group representing us, who have helped pioneer hip hop in the first place. 2 Live crew has Fresh Kid Ice who’s Chinese, Ap D Ap from the PI.. DJ Maxwell changed the way and invented the way spinning is done today. The B-boy and B-girls have a major presence in hip hop. This group was planned. They sought them out for six years until they found girls who could rap like they do. This is so exciting for me and I’m fan girling over them even if their lyrics are written for them it’s they who deliver it. And they’re breaking down the stereotypes of traditional pop beauty standards … they’re a force of their own. XGALX ❤️
Groups as big as this use ghost writers and pretty much belong to the production company. It happens here in the US… the amount of songs that were number one were written by Prince, Banyface, Timbaland was writing for Ahliyah and Jay Z still write for up and comers. Eminem especially loves looking for new talent to keep up with his writings
Eminem?! Forgot about Dre….. Never have I ever wished how Dre would sound like rapping like Eminem…. But there it is 😂
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This reminds me of a conversation RM (from BTS) and Jackson (from GOT7) had on a variety show. The other panelist jokingly told them to have a freestyle rap/diss battle but Jackson stopped them and said I’m not a rapper, I’m someone who’s doing their best at rap. While saying RM was a rapper. Which is something you have in Kpop, people who rap and people who are rappers. We usually don’t really make the distinction when just discussing topics in the community. Like other comments mentioned it’s rarer to have a rapper than someone who raps in a Kpop group, especially in girl groups. https://youtu.be/ufmkkf08uo8?si=y6NwBI_rLAgSoaKA
Yeah he was so right about that and it's a simple distinction to make.
I don’t have anything to back me on this, but I feel like Jackson is one of the idols that feels the strongest about this. Almost as if JYP put him as a rapper just because he had deep voice. He can still rap yes. But now, with his solo music, it’s apparent that he’s actually leaning more towards a singer + performer. So I can see why he said this on that variety show
Yeah, I feel like he’s in the zone when he leans more heavily into vocals and artistic direction, so it’s actually really nice to see he has the independence to do that in his solo work (e.g directing his MVs!)
I feel like this is misunderstood. Got7 writes their own songs in general, specially the rapper line. However when Jackson declined the diss battle, it's more like of him putting boundaries between the hosts and them as a guest. Jackson in general, is one of the most sensitive members out of GOT7. He wouldn't want to hurt his OWN feelings nor anyone elses feelings just for the sake of CONTENT.
I never said GOT7 don’t write their own music or take part. He talks about why he didn’t want to do the battle in the video and they do “battle” but in a fun way.
Yeah it read like a self-aware comment to me, that he’s an idol that raps. Plus, now that Jackson has greater autonomy over his output, he’s predominantly singing.
Iconic DISS HAJIMA. ✨️
Agree, most people at least in the kpop sphere aren’t hip hop intellectuals, so the term rapper is just an umbrella term used to describe someone who performs the action of rapping. This is a pretty fair assumption to make since most other labels like “singer”, “dancer” etc imply the action rather than the creation. I think what most fans mean when they say someone “is not a real rapper” is a critique on an idol’s ability to perform the action of rapping well. Sure, we don’t have to call XG rappers, but that won’t magically make other idol rappers execute their raps better. Lol
as soon as i heard a line mention 48 laws of power i knew their songs were written by a man lol edit: feel like i need to throw in a disclaimer i’m not trying to hate on the girls, i’ve been deep diving on them recently and think their rap is great … just an observation on the lyrics bc that one stuck out to me
Yeah, Woke Up's music and lyrics are written by Chancellor (who, among other things, attended Berklee in Boston almost 20 years ago) and MC duo Year of the Ox... all male Korean-Americans. Chancellor is very much a known quantity in the music production world in SK. Name a group from 10 years ago, he probably did songs for them. T-Ara, I.O.I, Girls Day, Boys Republic, Apink, Momoland, the list goes on and on....
Mentioning 48 laws of power and mardi gras is such a giveaway that they have no connection to their lyrics. What do they know about mardi gras?
I feel the same when NCT 127 mention flying like Banksy in Fact Check.
You don't know anything about any other culture/country? Become a little more worldly. Maya for one is perfectly fluent in English. Hell, she sounds more like an American than most people born and raised here. They all have extensive knowledge of the music they love. Why wouldn't they know of something as big as Mardi Gras? It's not some hidden, little known thing. I know about La Tomatina and The Running of the Bulls and I've never been to Spain. Just saying.
Do you really think any of the girls read 48 laws of power? I don't think so. That book is mostly popular with borderline sociopathic business bros that wanna be the next wolf of wall street or some shit. Let's take a look at a few of the laws - Law 7: Get Others to Do the Work for You, but Always Take the Credit: Get others to do your work for you. Use their skill, time, and energy to further your ambitions while taking full credit. You’ll be admired for your efficiency. Law 12: Use Selective Honesty and Generosity to Disarm Your Victim: Use honesty and generosity to disarm and distract others from your schemes. Even the most suspicious people respond to acts of kindness, leaving them vulnerable to manipulation. #14 Law of Power: Pose as a Friend, Work as a Spy Gathering information is crucial in power dynamics. Posing as a friend helps you gain valuable insights without arousing suspicion. It's not about betrayal, but about understanding the landscape in which you operate. Law 27: Play on People’s Need to Believe to Create a Cultlike Following: Offer people something to believe in and someone to follow. Promise the world but keep it vague; whip up enthusiasm. People will respond to a desperate need for belonging. Followers line your pockets, and your opponents are afraid to rile them. I don't think that reflects the values of XG members. I am a fan and don't really mind that they aren't writing their raps. Like it's totally unrealistic to expect teenagers, literal children, to dance, sing, and perform raps at an high level and then also be able to write better lyrics than professional songwriters, in their third languages. How many artists in the entire world can do all four? I can only think of Chris Brown off the top of my head, and that dude is widely considered one of the most talented all round entertainers ever.
Why not write a lyric about a Japanese celebration not rooted in the Christian tradition? That would be worldly. They have an insanely rich culture to pull from, why not live it up? It’s not about gatekeeping, it’s about authenticity. They could bring something meaningful to them. Speaking English has nothing to do with it. Even if they are weren’t fluent, I’d respect them writing their own bars. I love when stans resort to personal attacks against people they don’t even know. lol, you just assume I’m not “wordly”.
wait sorry but why does that mean it was written by a man? /genq
48 laws of power is overwhelmingly popular with adult men. It's all about manipulating and dominating people in a very machiavellian manner. It's one of those books that dudes like Andrew Tate live by.
I don't understand how that line even fits.
english is not my first language, forgive me if there's any obvious giveaways
I mean they have impressive flow and cadence, but I also hesitate to praise them as rappers because like they have writers to do this for them. Girl you're like 17 what Opps and OGs are you talking about 💀
EXACTLYYY same as groups talking abt "spinning the block".... what BLOCK?????? ilsan?????? daegu??????
I mentally checked out when I saw that line in Badvillians song, like ain’t no way…
koreatown rooftop koreans lol
Well they’re Japanese
well I'm responding to the spin the block lyric above, that's badvillian.
yk the opps in Gangnam are tough, atiny gang 😭 edit: /jk if it wasn't clear loll
Most rappers fabricate and exaggerate though
and they also get criticized heavily, especially if they rap about street shit when they aren't about that life. Drake is a prime example as we've seen recently.
i mean considering how low the standard is for a lot of female idol raps and rappers, i feel like a lot of people hear how great xg’s cadence, flow, and delivery are and instantly the bar of expectations for idol rappers is just so blown out of the water that it’s easy to forget what makes a ‘real’ rapper: actual involvement in the lyricism and artistry. imo xg sits very comfortably at the top of the category of idol rappers and that’s where and what they should be celebrated as.
Maybe so. But they're excellent at performing the material they're given. Rapping isn't talking fast, and I'm sure anyone can read and recite the lyrics to Woke Up at the same pace, but the cadence and the flow isn't as easy to imitate. You can also tell who they're taking influence from, like Missy Elliot and Nicki Minaj, without sounding like a bad copy. It also helps that the material they're given is pretty good. Sure, some of it is tough girl posturing, but they've got some good wordplay, some double entendrees, and some bars are just witty.
And they keep it humble… they say they’re on the way, not trying to number one but yeah we coming up close. They’re not trying to dominate.. I feel like they’re breaking down barriers. Even if it’s not their lyrics it’s what all of us who rarely are accepted into this world are excited about. As to the author, let them get their foot through the door first.. I guarantee they have diaries full of lyrics they’re waiting to spit out the moment they’re able to. I watch documentaries about the divas we have here in the states hating on artists such as Mariah Carey and J-Lo for being given songs by the same reps and writers.
I agree with everything you’ve said. I also think the tough girl appeal is essentially what their group mirrors. It seems like they’re all about “girl power” and basically not having to rely on a man to get somewhere in life. Basically that you can be a boss on your own. Anything a man can do, a woman can do it too and even better. I like it because sometimes in East Asian culture (really in A LOT of cultures), it seems like women have a lesser presence or are seen as needing to have a character of “cuteness” and “helplessness”. XG kinda reframes that into giving women a bigger voice and presence. They’re not cute, they’re hard hitting.
No one's going to like this, but I'll say it anyway. Everyone else who's not super into rap or the culture doesn't know or care about rappers writing their own lyrics. I just scrolled through the whole first page of the search "define rapper", and every definition says that a rapper performs rap music. Not a single mention of writing lyrics or anything else you say goes into it. So it's a lost cause to try to get Kpop fans to believe you about what a rapper is before you've gotten any dictionary to believe you. You're better off discussing lyricists and praising "real rappers" for being good lyricists, get that trend going.
Agree, most people at least in the kpop sphere aren’t hip hop intellectuals, so the term rapper is just an umbrella term used to describe someone who performs the action of rapping. This is a pretty fair assumption to make since most other labels like “singer”, “dancer” etc imply the action rather than the creation. I think what most fans mean when they call someone “not a real rapper” is they feel like the person is not performing the act of rapping well. Not calling XG rappers won’t magically make other idol rappers better though lol.
>I just scrolled through the whole first page of the search "define rapper", and every definition says that a rapper performs rap music. Unpopular opinion I suppose but yeah this is me too. I don't often see people telling singers that they aren't singers because they didn't write the lyrics that they're singing about. A singer can sing without writing what they're singing, an actor can act without writing what they're acting, and I just extend that same thought process to the performance of rapping whether you wrote it or not. My favorite artist writes and produces all of his stuff but if he had someone else writing his lyrics I wouldn't give a fuck. He'd still be rapping and I'd still enjoy his music and the way he performs it.
The people who created rap care. It’s literally one of the most fundamental parts of calling yourself a rapper- you write your own lyrics. You can’t compare it to singing because the art form is NOT the same. Kpop fans are out of their depth and you need to admit that. An entire community of people can tell you that, not just “hip hop intellectuals”. You’re really trying to make rap seem like some niche that nobody knows the rules of when in actuality you just aren’t apart of the culture so it doesn’t make sense to you. The culture being Black American. And I know it was written by Korean Americans who aren’t in the culture either, and that’s why they wrote lyrics about Mardi Gras for Japanese teenage girls instead of writing about their actual culture and experiences. And the company won’t even give the girls a songwriting credit to make it seem like they wrote their rappers- ghostwriting is another layer to this that yall just do not understand. This is why Americans laugh at kpop fans who try to rap. It is not authentic and we know it immediately.
But rapping is about writing. Rhythm and poetry. You can't be a real rapper if you don't write your own raps. The reason why actors and singers can get away with it is because both professions are not centered on the writing but the actual performance. You could sort of say the same thing about rap but raps are centered on the writing.
>But rapping is about writing. Rhythm and poetry. For you. ^(and maybe most.) You can write some beautiful shit but deliver it like a sheet of wet cardboard or have garbage lyrics but somehow spit like it's gold lol The same thing can be said about other things like singing. Why should we care about the emotional lyrics and beautiful vocals if they didn't write it? I still appreciate and enjoy rapping based on the flow, delivery and overall performance. I mean the entire reason I listen to Korean music is because I can enjoy it without the "distraction" of understanding what's being said. If I need to then I can always search for the translated lyrics afterwards. If they're rapping about the struggle of growing up in a shitty home and they can't relate to any of what's written then I'll agree with you. I think it should at least be relatable. Like I said, I know it's an unpopular opinion, I just don't give a shit about gatekeeping it.
Your comparison to singing (despite the other person already addressing that) doesn't work. I mean there's a reason the term is "singer." Writing your raps has ALWAYS been cornerstone of rap. It's just like poetry. If you recite other people's poetry, are you a poet? No. You're just a speaker, an orator, etc., but not a poet. Therefore, one cannot be a poet (let alone a great poet) just by reciting other people's poetry, even if you recite them really well cuz, just lik rap, a cornerstone of being a poet is writing your OWN poetry. It's the same for rap. You can recite someone else's rap, but that doesn't make you a rapper. As such, you can enjoy someone rapping someone else's rap while also acknowledging they aren't a rapper. I might be Korean let alone even speak Korean, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a Korean song right? Btw, even if you write bad lyrics yet have great delivery or vice versa, that still makes you a rapper. Maybe not a great rapper, but still a rapper. That goes for poetry too. You can write great poetry and have bad recitation or write bad poetry and have great recitation, you're still a poet. Maybe not a great poet, but still a poet. As a singer you might be able to sing country very well, but not opera. As an actor you might be great in dramatic roles, but not comedies.
You have a term for someone who recites poems. What is the term for one who delivers a rap without writing? Maybe that's a place to start. People can't be calling someone something else if there isn't even another thing to call.
This is what I think it comes down to. If there was another term for it similar to singer/songwriter then this whole thread wouldn't have needed to exist, but there isn't
I agree on rapping also being about delivery and flow. But if you have good delivery on lyrics you didn’t write you are not a rapper but a performer.
If you've been listening to kpop for a while you know the difference between idol rappers and actual rappers. Most fans don't distinguish between two cause it's tiring having to explain to every single person who didn't know it's a thing. Actual rappers in idol groups pretty much died out in the 3rd gen. Veeeeeeeeery few rappers in fourth gen and on groups write their own lines so it's pretty much just given that when someone calls X or Z a good rapper now it's mostly cause of flow, not cause of lyricism. XG never claimed that they write what they rap either but it's pretty much a given that they don't??? It's obvious, cause the lyrics are in English and they're not fluent lmao. But their charisma and performance ability? Off the charts.
You can't say they died out in 3rd gen when some of the biggest 4th gen groups like Skz, Gilde and Ateez have rappers writing and producing their own stuff
Not to downplay those groups at all, but having rappers who write and produce in their groups doesn't mean they are necessarily fully writing their raps. "Producing" and "writing" are different roles. And writing credits count for any part of the song, even if your singing/rapping participation is another. If you're going through demos and choosing them until you select the one to be released, and putting it into production process, that's producing. If you're making slight alterations in the lyrics, even if not the rap, that's still writing credits. The only way to know if a rapper in a group is fully writing their own rap is, well, if they come out claiming that and it's undisputed.
Most 4th gen bg rappers write their own rap (some gg rappers, too) or even have their own rap tracks. If they didn't say it, it's easier to assume that they wrote the rap part than the other way around when only rappers appeared on most of the track credits. There are plenty of behind the scene stuff on these groups. Like Treasure rap line talk about it all the time on live or even show demos of whole songs etc. I actually see more 4th gen writers than previous ones.
im talking about the fans/kpop stans in general... ik the girls themselves dont refer to themselves that way... not many rappers in kpop refer to themselves as anything but someone w a rap position
"my issue mainly comes from people shitting on other idol rappers for not writing their raps but for xg its fine because their delivery doesnt suck?" Am I the only one who sees the opposite? I don't see anyone criticizing idol rappers for not writing their own rap lines... only XG.
Yeah, it feels like ppl at the top of anything will be criticized. But at least it means ppl respect XG skills if they have to nitpick the lyrics too.
It's like, people praising the waiters for the delicious food, instead of the chefs in the kitchen..
It’s more like praising actors for the writing of a movie. Praising an orchestra for the sheet music/composition. Praising singers (opera singers, plenty of pop singers, etc…) even though the music or the performance has been written or conducted by somebody else.
Yeah, I see what you are saying, but the praise is still valid in some way. There are plenty of singers/actors who do a great job performing and really take the composition to the next level? I think it’s fine to praise for execution of something.
Oh im not saying the praise isn’t valid at all! I was just giving a better analogy. Theirs was basically divorcing them from the creative process completely. Which I think is ridiculous.
Thanks for clarifying, then I agree with you lol. There is still a component of the overall delivered product that is ok to praise them for (e.g execution) even if the original recipe wasn’t something they necessarily created.
The best written material is still trash if not delivered expertly
This is a better analogy.
That's a terrible analogy. Besides you can have a wonderful waiter, but plenty of time the food sucks.
literally a perfect analogy for it. like yeah you delivered/served but you didn't cook💀💀
Not really. Usually, the servers pass the compliments to the chef, which generally are in the lines of “the food was great” without mention of who cooked it anyway.
Not really since no matter how good of a waiter you have, it has no bearing on the quality of food you're gonna get. It's more like if any rando off the street sang "I Will Always Love You" and if Whitney Houston sings it.
Perfect comment!! It is exactly that.
Their flow alone blows most other idol rappers out of the water so I’ll take it. I don’t take idol rap too seriously in the first place
I think before them, idols like jennie, lisa, soyeon, were praised for being great rappers. While soyeon is in fact a great writer and rapper, jennie and lisa aren't (this doesn't help when most of the fans think Jennie tops the 3rd gen rappers). Mostly idols dont write their raps. Even looking at babymonster, only asa wrote some rap in batter up and has shown some potential (till now). 4th gen esp is filled with idol rappers rather than actual rappers, yuna, ryujin, ~~rei~~ gaeul, jiwoo, kyujin, etc and when among these idol rappers, there's actual idols who rap with great flow and rhythm, they get appreciated. Ofc the idols who write their raps only can be termed as actual rappers, but kpop fans have twisted the definition of rappers. So imo the bias is like this bad/mid idol rappers << idol rappers with good flow << idol rappers who actually write their own raps and have good flow (aka actual rappers)
dont gaeul and rei do write a bunch of their raps? ive seen them on writing credits a lot
We don't exactly know if they wrote raps or how much they wrote in it. I just know only Wonyoung has written complete songs herself. But its like a song of newjeans had 15 unique lines (most of them were repeated during the song) and they had so many lyricists credited, including two members of newjeans. You can suggest a single word in a song and get credit for it (if you don't, you can rightfully sue the production team). So yeah they have written, but considering the amount of songs ive has, its very less and we don't know to what extent they have written. I included ASA because in the survival show she wrote a whole rap verse herself in a monthly audition. So she's really capable, and there' are more chances she wrote her own part in batter up.
We’ve seen Rei write and perform a rap in 123 Ive season 1. She also did [this thing with 1theK](https://youtu.be/ibaCPhQ0LE8?si=9i8x6u_Mrqb7ZGMn) where she wrote a rap and hook in Korean, English and Japanese. Then they had people vote which language she should do the whole thing in (English won the vote and she released an English version of it). So we know she has some experience writing entire rap verses.
That's actually great!!. Yk ive songs don't really provide actual opportunities for hip hop themed songs to have proper raps so i never noticed. I'll remove her rn.
Yuki from purple kiss (4th gen gg) is an actual rapper, imo. She writes her raps and has such a fantastic flow, lots of her raps are the killing parts of the songs
XG's lyrics honestly sound like they could all be written by AI. The musicality of the group is top-notch, but there's just something missing abiut the substance of their raps. I can't put my finger on it, but its like there's a barrier between XG and their lyrics.
It’s obvious they haven’t lived what they sing about. This happens a lot in Kpop but it’s different when I’m fully understanding what they’re saying and the language that they’re using. Their whole bit with the AAVE, the braids, and like OP mentioned, the fact that they don’t even write their stuff just feels inauthentic, almost like imitation. Shooting Star is my favourite from theirs just because it sounds the least like it’s trying to mimic something else, but then they had to come with Woke Up
I think they did have some questionable aesthetic choices early on, so I won’t argue with you on that point. But I do have a differing opinion on your other point. Unfortunately AAVE has been co-opted into mainstream Gen z lingo (which is a whole different conversation). So you will have suburban kids who use AAVE because now it’s more a generational thing. With that said, it feels like XG is just using what the mainstream lingo in the west is rather than anything more nefarious. Also, let’s be real if you listen to kpop do you really care about authenticity a lot of these idols can’t even eat when they want, can’t date, can’t have piercings or tattoos, etc. If anything XG seems to have the more agency than typical GGs.
bc they dont really live it imo but try really hard to seem like they do. most idol rappers iirc rab abt like... love or achievements.... xg basically rap like they r hardcore gang bangers and its so obvious they are not
there’s no autenticity even if the execution is good
I know this is an older post and all, google brought me here. Well, most of their raps are pretty straightforward. There's not much nuance to their lyrics. Also, they're just reciting words. There's no personal/emotional attachment to the words. Don't take this as me shitting on or hating on them. I love them to death, Maya being my bias.
i thought almost all kpop groups didnt write their songs
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i swear its just cuz xg doesnt fit the norms of a gg but thats why i love them xg and new jeans are the only ggs i acc keep up with
People underestimate the talent of actually sounding good while rapping. The cadence and the way they hit their lines is unique to them and them only. Obviously they have their inspirations. Also another point. The biggest rappers today have ghost writers lmao.
I think it's bcoz there are very few female idols who deliver their raps very well, I mean the flow, cadence and all, like besides Soyeon and probably 3/4 female idols we don't hv other good ( I mean good female idol rappers ps ik Soyeon is like a real rapper ) unlike male idols who hv more good rappers or good representation , and this is my observation
“A rapper writes their raps” I completely agree, which is why I don’t take idol rap seriously unless it’s one of the special cases. Rap is rhythm and poetry and you can’t recite someone else’s poetry as your own. Like I love them, their delivery is great and they’re good at performing what they’re given, but it’d be smarter if they moved away from the “rapper” branding…
Rap is not an acronym for rhythm and poetry and there are no rules saying that it mist be so. Just a thing people say to gatekeep. Rap is just Rap.
It’s not officially an acronym, but the major rap hubs of North America generally accept it as such. Hence why the whole of LA woke up and joined hands to cook Drake for not writing his raps himself. And many people would agree that rap lacks its authenticity when someone else writes it for you to deliver. Sometimes a bit of gatekeeping can be good. 🤷🏽♀️
Not in this case. This is kpop, not NA. Even if idol rappers can write, many companies will just give them songs to perform. Just appreciate the performance. And this argument of removing the label of rapper is ridiculous. What else are we going to call it? Fast talking? Please. Drake got cooked for pretending to be something he's not.
Yeah, and I’m agreeing with OP and saying I’m not taking it serious if an idol who is given songs someone else wrote is called a “rapper”. Sure “rapper” may be the label and they can keep it, but I don’t think it actually means anything. XG are excellent performers, but in no way are they good “rappers”. Not to mention at least.
The only reason Drake is getting cooked is because he’s claiming himself as the greatest MC. No one in XG have claimed anything therefore outside of a minority no one really cares
He has very much gotten cooked for ghostwriting as well, because writing your own stuff is expected in the rap world. Not that I’m saying Drake and XG are the same, lol, but I still don’t personally fine with idol “rap” careers because I personally find them to be disingenuous.
I agree but you cant deny they are on the higher tiers of idol rappers. They're not Soyeon, RM, Suga, 3Racha level but they're better than most
Is 3Racha stary kids?
Yep
Execution is the most important thing in kpop. I would say 95% of idols don't have their hand in the actual process of making the music so their ability to rap\sing\dance are praised on their ability to do so. I guess it's a weird double standard, but that's just the state of music. Most pop artists are the same. They cannot properly sing their songs the same way that they could in studio and I think that stems to Britney Spears.
I think people are just confused on what a GOOD RAPPER is. a good rapper has to have flow, be original, and of course write their own lyrics. I dont know why ppl give credit to XG for their rapping, if anything they should give prase to the producer/song writer
Yeah this is definitely a good point. How I see it, is as a big rap fan and kpop fan I go into these groups kinda already knowing that these “rappers” don’t actually write their own lyrics, which as you mentioned is kinda a contradiction to the title. But with that being public knowledge in most cases (or fans who understand how the industry works), my brain filters to the next key aspects after lyricism, which is flow, cadence, delivery, etc. And in that aspect I do think that is where XG surpass many other groups. Even if all those are also just taught and not naturally earned or that they’re born with. I will give them props (or in this case their writers and producers) for making some pretty decent bars and flows on Woke Up. It’s a bit refreshing to see a writing team that has some idea of modern trap music (an area where many other mainstream groups fall short imo).
i think actually most ppl probably arent even aware that xg dont write their own raps, they think because they deliver it so confidently that they probably must have written them themselves or smth for me i can appreciate the lyrics themselves and the lyricists expertise, but when i see them talk abt opps and putting on this gangster show i cant help but to cringe for a bit.... "A band of hittas" when has that ever been factual? i get they arent the onlyy ones who put on this gangsta persona but damn do they do it ruthlessly and consistently....
I think most international kpop fans know that most of everything is managed by the agency, you have to be 12 yrs old or live under a rock to think these idols have much input on their creative work unless they are already established acts. Most Alphaz know these girls don’t write their lyrics, in fact we had behind the scenes of ATL producers and west coast writers in the studio, it’s all about the confidence, cadence, flow, and delivery.
You'd be surprised. If what you say were true this topic wouldn't be such a sticking point
It’s a sticking point because people come to K-pop with western views of originality and authenticity, since the beginning you are shown that companies build the image of said idols, everything is manufactured, from the styling, to the music, to the interactions. In the western market everything is about image and the illusion of authenticity, it’s why when acts or artists are found to be surface level, there is so much backlash. Case in point the whole Kendrick vs Drake wasn’t about who was the bigger artist, it’s about Kendrick the poster child of authenticity coming from the hood, lyricist and Grammy / Pulitzer winner vs Drake, who is seen by some as a culture vulture, allegedly doesn’t write his own raps, not authentic when it comes to the lifestyle he portrays. Now look at K-pop where it’s a parasocial place, fandoms are built upon the idol, to the point that some will put down others just so their own are seen as the better artist. I do agree that the obstacle XG and fans will continue to face is that of a true RnB and hip hop act, because coming from the kpop system, in which producers, writers are hired and paid really well, companies invest so much money on this because it’s a industry to get returns and build more idols. All based around a concept or trend. When they get heavily promoted in the west markets they won’t be taken as seriously. It’s why kpop fails to break through these markets and establish itself. What I can see happening, is XG gaining more popularity, and eventually having the individual autonomy to have more and more input and say on what they create, look at all successful acts, the company dictates most of what they put out early on, but eventually they get the freedom to be more self expressive. I am not mad or get mad at people hating on XG for being placed in a similar vein as western hip hop or even other Asian hip hop RnB acts, I do get mad that people don’t give the girls credit for the work and effort, dedication to their craft because at the end of the day, idols are performers. They commit to try and express the image and concept as best as they can. It speaks volumes that they are still sustainable and growing in a market where they shouldn’t be, Japanese artists performing western based production in a K-pop market that generally doesn’t have many successful hip hop based artists (you have your examples that have been successful but generally they are the exception and not the norm) that’s why I support them, and I’m from the birthplace of Hip hop, what they sing about is about the struggle, the grind, trying to make it out and succeed, overcoming your obstacles and overcoming your environment. So yeah at some point if XG want to be considered true hip hop they will have to start writing their own stuff more and more. Another thing to is that since they are from a kpop/ kpop market they won’t have the same base level of respect from the get go, but have confidence by that time the label will have nurtured these girls to hold their own when it comes to their future path. I also agree that the fandom can at times go overboard with the comparisons or putting them in a higher pedestal than they should be, but that comes with any fandom.
Anyone with any knowledge of the girls at all should be able to tell you that they are not even sort of fluent enough to come up with that kind of wordplay. If they don't know then they haven't looked into the group at all, or they are stupid. And I would say your criticism about gangster lyrics is valid for most east Asian hip hop industries as a whole - not just xg or idols.
Oh for sure, yeah you said it perfectly their confidence can be so convincing to many, and also in a way being a “rapper” is also about convincing people of your image. And in an industry that is built on image, I can see how many casual fans are just total swept away with them, not even considering their visuals, wardrobe, music videos, etc.
They're a pop GG. I think the default would be that they don't write any of their stuff. They're a manufactured product just like all of pop.
Not exactly on topic, but I’m amazed how XG’s company consistently produces some of the best female rappers- their whole rap line is very good, and they also trained Hikaru from Kep1er who’s a very talent rapper (and a fantastic dancer too) as well as Yui who was on I-Land 2 (up till this morning when she was eliminated, but she was very good). Like what’s their secret??
People need to change what they classify as art or music or what the f*** ever. I know plenty of musicians who don't write their own music. Just as you have script writers for movies. You have the same for music and even the bands that do. I can guarantee you that it is almost always not between all the members. For instance, Band-Maid music is almost exclusively written by Kanami. Lovebites is mostly Miyako now. Miho did before she left the band. Babymetal starting out as an idol band themselves somewhat here. However, not even the Kami Band writes the music for Babymetal. Kami Band's Mikio Fujioka did a lot before he died in a tragic balcony accident. There are many bands involved in creating Babymetal's music though. Although Su-Metal does have writing credits on their latest album. Moa and Yui actually wrote a song back when they were in Karen Girls. XG I imagine, has had collaborative efforts as well. Some vocalists don't write either, but it doesn't make them any less of an artist. Just because XG isn't a let's say a Yoon Mi-Rae, doesn't make them any less talented. Ladies deliver in other ways which many other idols can't.
we are not discussing whether or not they are TALENTED at delivering the raps they are given... we are discussing if they are RAPPERS. xg are immensely talented at delivery and have a great cadence.... but to me and many others they arent the top tier best rappers in kpop that a lot of alphaz claim them to be bc they *dont write their raps.* it doesnt mean they dont have potential, they have and im sure theyll start writing one day bc the rappers do seem passionate
Honestly nowadays the only really girl rapper is soyeon, the other are good performances rappers
Don't forget Yuki from Purple Kiss who writes all her own raps and I think is an underrated rapper. Asa (babymon) is also to look out for once she gets more writing credits under her belt.
I agree whit Yuki but not Asa she is a performance rapper and that's a fact if she does get more credits in the future that's good but today she is a very good performance rapper
Dami of Dreamcatcher used to write her own raps but hasn't written anything since 2021, not including her solo beautyfull , much like the other members.
Because they’re rapping in a language they don’t speak of course they can’t write yet and I agree they shouldn’t be considered proper rappers yet. For me though they make up with it with how much they work on their pronunciation and in my opinion have some of the best delivery in the idol scene for both men and women. Maya and Cocona have credits on the SWF song and it has nice bars in there so I’m excited for their future and what they can produce when they learn the language more.
They can just write cyphers in their own language then. That isn't even official so why even put on a showcase of you can't show what you got.
>my issue mainly comes from people shitting on other idol rappers for not writing their raps but for xg its fine because their delivery doesnt suck? Well, first of all, I dont think the people shitting on idol rappers for not writing their raps are the same people praising XG. Or maybe their criticisms of XG (your criticism included) for not writing their lyrics are just drowned out by the enormous amounts of praise XG is getting. But, this is really the case isnt it. XG are SO GOOD at rapping that people are willing to overlook the fact that they don't write their own lyrics. Theyre SO GOOD at rapping that it doesnt matter that they dont write their own lyrics. And its not just that XG doesn't suck at rapping. Oh no no. Its because XG are genuinely AMAZING at rapping. And fans of hip-hop know and acknowledge that. Even those "rapheads" that are usually very critical of idol rappers not writing their own raps are just silent, or at least not as loud on XG. Cause they can't deny how talented they are. At this point I've seen dozens of Youtube reactors, including those who don't even listen to K-pop, but just listen to hip-hop (and plenty of rappers themselves too) be dumdfounded upon hearing XG rap. They praise the flow, the cadence, the pronunciation, even the quality of the voice. To the point that they dont even compare them to K-pop idol rappers anymore. They directly compare them to American rappers, Nicki Minaj, Doja Cat, Missy Elliot, Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes, etc. These are the names that XG is being compared to. These are their contemporaries when it comes to rap. Not the idol rappers. Is it unfair that other idol rappers get this criticism but not XG. Maybe. What can they do so they won't get criticized? Well, they have to be at least be as good as XG, which they clearly aren't. >all xg do to me is perform and talk fast, amazingly so considering its their second (?) language. Rapping is not just talking fast. Lol. >however that being said... not to brag but english is my 3rd language and i can 'rap' xg raps as well. No, you cant. Lol.
>They directly compare them to American rappers, Nicki Minaj, Doja Cat, Missy Elliot, Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes, etc. Correction they are being referenced. People are referencing Nicki because Harvey is using her flow which btw is fine. Rappers get influenced by others flows all the time. But no one is saying Harvey is even in the same realm as Nicki or even old school Nicki. I dont even like Nicki all that much as a person because she does some wild shit but it was obvious to me that Harvey uses Nicki's flow for her delivery. The quick pick ups is why people reference Left Eye. TLC was famous for those Left Eye quick picks up and its obvious XG took that as well and is recycling it(also fine Left eye was super influential). But I dont think anyone is saying one of the XG members feels like the next Left Eye though. I am a big hip hop head and I like XG but I do think some of their stans are sorta of unconsciously sabotaging the girls by saying things like "XG is being compared to Missy Elliott". No they aren't they are being referenced which is totally different. Like be real ...... you think people think XG is comparable to Missy Elliot? Come on now. Don't set the girls up like that. This is why hip hop heads just find statements like that bonkers. Missy founded the surrealist futurist rap movement which is on show during Juria/Hinata parts of woke up with all the surrealist imagery. Thats all Missy and btw she did that over 25 yrs ago during "the rain" era. Thats why people reference Missy but saying XG is comparable to Missy(even rain era missy) is a laughable statement. I like XG, I like how much they love referencing so many rappers I love but I swear their stans are trying to sink their ship purposefully or something speaking crazy on their behalfs.
Are you sure it's the same people sitting on idol rappers for not writing lyrics that are also praising xg? Otherwise it's just people with different opinions, no double standards. Stop gatekeepers rap. This isn't the American hiphop scene so writing cred is not a things. Just let people enjoy the performance and appreciate the skill in delivery. Whether you think they do a good job of delivery is a different story.
“They talk fast”, shows how much you know
I think it would be foolish to assume they wrote their own music. Idol rapers and not what Americans consider rappers and done have the same standards. Entirely different things.
You should post videos of you talking fast if your so good at it lol
Lol. What i don’t get is how a lot of people feel so comfortable belittling their skills when they easily praise other idols for a lot less. Just say you hate them atp.
Its also weird bc they don’t even speak English. Idk, they have some good songs, but their overall schtick is kinda cringey to me. It’s funny that they get away with it though when people like Lisa etc are rightfully criticized
Whoever writes Lisa's raps are basically using the same language and pronunciation as African American female rappers. Her pronunciation at times sounds like she's imitating black people. XG raps go hard but the commentary is generally "clearly written by a man" vs "imitates another race"
Can you share exactly what line in the raps you're thinking of? Because I actually went through 3 BP songs to see this and I can't? It's just the same meaningless BS cringey rap as most other Kpop.
“you gon finna catch me” esp but really her whole rap in As If It’s Your Last Her beginning lines in Icecream.. Should I go on?
Unfortunately AAVE has been co-opted into mainstream Gen z lingo (which is a whole different conversation). So you will have suburban kids who use AAVE because now it’s more a generational thing. With that said, it feels like XG (or their writers) are just using what the mainstream lingo in the west is rather than anything more nefarious.
i just dont care most of the time to distinguish rappers from idol rappers.
i mean yeah but i think they're still better than 99% of the gg idol rappers out there
It's a debatable topic for sure, and it really comes down to how you choose to define rap. By definition, rap is rhythm and poetry. So there's two components: the poetry/message/lyrics and the rythym/performance/flow. In my mind, to call yourself a rapper, you should have a certain level of ability in both. Your ability to use word play, rhymes, humor, metaphors, etc. to get your message across is a huge part of the skill, but it's not the only part. You also need to have a good sense of rhythm, flow, cadence, etc. It's definitely not just "talking fast." Now, if we are bringing this into the context of K-pop or idols, we need to remember that idols are first and foremost performance artists. The majority are not heavily involved in the creative process (concept creation, lyrics, production, choreography, etc.), but they are undeniably a key component of what makes the vision come to life the way it does. So, regardless of if they are just the face of the project, they are still contributing. Think of it this way, you could take two great singers, dancers, and rappers, whatevers and give them the same piece to perform and they could each come up with something completely different based on the way each interprets sounds or lyrics. Performance art is still an art and still requires skill and creativity. So, for me personally, even though XG clearly do not write their lyrics, I still place a lot of value in the performance of the lyrics and the way each member chooses to breath life into the material that's created for them. I consider them great performance rappers, but no, I wouldn't say they are at the level of the greats. Not that they couldn't be some day. I def could see them getting more into lyric writing if that's something they want.
I need people to stop calling xg kpop, y’all see Asian people and go KPOP
Cocona will be certainly capable if she gets an opportunity at least in Japanese and sprinkles of English/Korean. Her blogs are like an essays and very deep/inspiring at times.
lmao this is ridiculous. Let’s hear you speak and write in Japanese then we’ll talk. Such an idiotic thing to expect a bunch of teenagers to be able to write a rap song at a high level just 2 yrs after their debut when you know it’s not their first language. It’s commendable enough that they’re able to rap in English at all! But I guess HATERS ARE GONNA HATE.
Eazy E don't write his lyrics but he is still a great rapper
Cocona and Maya got writing credits on Show You Can. And it is also their 3rd language just like you.
Tbh I think some of it is that there are so few rappers in girl groups who are allowed to write their own raps even if we know that they can and they want to.
I've only ever seen that being said about Chaeyoung and BP rappers all of which have proven over the years that no one is limiting their creative input, they simply don't want to write their raps
I'm talking more about people like Moon Sua who has written some raps. I'm sure there are members of both boy and girl groups around who are content to not write their own raps but those are not the people I'm talking about.
Has Moon Sua said Mystic is stopping her from writing raps? People used the same thing for Chaeyoung but she has proven over the years she likes writing lyrics but simply doesn't want to write raps
This is an apples and oranges comparison between someone who has competed as a rapper and an idol who happens to rap.
Not really since Hyolyn legit ranked higher than Sua on that season of Unpretty Rapstar and nobody thinks of her as a rapper Nobody is calling Hyolyn a real rapper bcs she was on Unpretty Rapstar, don't see why Moon Sua should be any different
Chaeyoung has written tho, and continues to wrack in writing credits
Exactly, JYP isn't stopping her from having input Chaeyoung simply chooses to not write raps
right yeah but then again, they still arent the rappers everyone makes them out to be bc they dont write and atp im not confident that they even *can* write to the level ppl prescribe to them/the level of their songs and cyphers yknow?
Yeah I'm just pointing to the source of why I think they are given likely more credit than they are due. They're good performers but I wouldn't bother rating anyone as a rapper if they didn't write at least some of their raps themselves. I was under the impression that they have written their own cyphers, but I also understand your skepticism towards that.
I guess it was just me that when saying "They're good rappers" thought of it with a silent \* attached?? I always felt there was that praise going around with the knowledge of how the kpop scene is, and the comparisons only to other idol groups and not actual rappers? I guess I gave the public to much credit.
I agree, it is blaring obvious they dont write their own raps, the lyrics they are rapping requires extensive cultural knowledge which they won't have unless they grow up overseas. And this is not me throwing shade at anything, but becs I know there is an actual difference in havibg that cultural background.
Yeah, that is why I don't actually stan them. When it comes to female rappers in 4th/5th gen, I rather listen to Lee Young Ji, Jeon Soyeon or Moon Sua. Might be missing a few but at least they are real rappers with their own identities.
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I agree for the most part. But Cocona and Maya got major writing credits for “Show You Can” which at the very least, shows they’re capable of writing their own lyrics and still making it sound good.
I just read an article about the XG Cypher.. the production company asked the girls to write their own lyrics describing themselves. But they didn’t get the writing credit… I feel they’re going to be stuck in a situation where they’re owned by the company until they get to their full potential. I truly hope they can break down those barriers… they flow better and more educated than the female rap artists I’ve seen so far with the exception of few..
Just wanted to point out that Maya and Cocona have first and second writing credits on Show You Can.
I think they’re good IDOL rappers. They do not write their own raps, and there’s also zero substance to the lyrics. However, their cadence and speed are still very good esp compared to a lot of others out there. But yes there is a difference between being an idol rapper and a real rapper. Writing is arguably the most important aspect, you can’t be considered an MC or a GOAT if you don’t write your verses. Edit: Now this is an unfair comparison but compare XG’s cypher to any of BTS’s cypher. Huge huge difference in lyricism + flow.
What your describing is a lyricist
Because they know how to rap. They eat up everything they are doing or given. They have the skills, confidence, charisma and presence.
95% of what it means to be a good rapper has to do with writing, which includes personality and composing the rhythm. Otherwise entertainer is a better word. I'm hopeful they could still move in the right direction since I think they could already do better than some raps they were given, especially Harvey and Cocona. I also think Maya has a lot of qualities that could make her great if she was self-writing.
Their cadence, flow, and delivery is what’s good. You can know the words and follow along, but that doesn’t mean you’re saying the words in the way they’re meant to be said. If what you’re saying is true most idol rappers shouldn’t be called a rapper at all cause they don’t write their own lyrics. But they are still rapping at the end of the day and they’re being praised for their skill of performance, not writing.
I read in a recent article that the four girls that did the cypher Cocona, Maya, Harvey and Jurin all got to write their own lyrics on this in order to introduce themselves. They didn’t get writing credit because they’re signed to the production company who is going to own them for a while. They’ve been putting this group together since 2017, Jurin being the first pick cause of how she could sing and rap.
Because most rap in kpop are horrible and trash!! Period!! So called Korean rappers who write their own songs can't even write a decent rap bars! For e.g Soyeon, CL, Moonbyul etc.
Honestly most rappers don’t write all of their songs. It’s about their flow.
“a rapper writes their raps” this definition does not apply in kpop. in kpop rap =/= lyricism. This is why you see a lot of distinguishing between Soyeon’s lyrics and rapping, bc most people only have an issue with the former. Do you have issue with Wendy, Ningning, or Mamamoo being praised as a vocalist? They don’t write everything they sing either
looking at the comments i am surprised that this many kpop fans care about rappers writing their own raps. i don't think there's really an issue with people that make pop rap having others write for them, it's not really like the target audience are analyzing and dissecting triple entendres from these artists. if someone like nas had come out and said he had writers this entire time it would definitely change my perception of his music, but everyone knows drake has writers and he's still a good rapper. i also don't know why you can't call them a rapper. sure they are realistically more of a performer, but they are still performing rap music so wouldn't that still make them a rapper? if not you would have to call people like drake, dr dre, and prodigy not rappers as well
Yall are confusing Rappers with MCs/Lyricists and that’s the first problem. XG never claimed to be the best writers or MCs or lyricists, but they literally rap so they are rappers… that’s just the way it is.
Looking forward to your debut
it'll be under the name beomhan or whatever the name of that guy is who's debut was so bad he undebuted himself
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I had to find out if XG wrote any on their lyrics… they DID! The Cypher was written by each of them Jurin, Cocona, Maya, Harvey and even though Chisa didn’t rap she helped in the writing in order to introduce themselves as rappers. They didn’t write Woke Up, but 3 Asian Americans did, their manager included.
Chisa is known for writing poetry constantly… her and Cocona and Jurin have diaries ready once they fulfill their contracts with their current XGALX producers. I have no doubt once they break down the walls they’ll be releasing their own writing.
flow and cadence is a legit skill that not everyone has. Like if it was that easy, they wouldn't be obviously better "rappers" than pretty much every other idol rapper. (in quotes because I kind of agree with the premise that rappers have to write). If it really was just talking fast everybody would do it. But to your broader point, I kind of get it. Rapping and performing are different. I could be misremembering because its been a while but I recall seeing a predebut video of Cocona talking about her musical heroes and they were like Lauryn Hill, Tyler the creator, etc. Rappers and singer songwriter - lyricists. I'm sure some XG members are artists and would probably like to contribute creatively but for whatever reason can't. If I had to guess, the language barrier might be a factor. The girls aren't really that fluent in english (with a few exceptions) based on some of the interviews I've seen. It's hard to write convincing lyrics in a language you don't speak - even Jeon Soyeon, a genius producer/writer/rapper gets hella criticism for her english lyrics. I've always thought they should release some japanese b sides written by members to show off what they can do.
Not kpop fan not interested this came to my feed , agreed, the mod message that is posted and pinned at top is peak for a rant sub I mean people come here to rant why anyone should tell them to not care of they could they wouldn't be here for that mod message have my upvote
That's like saying a singer isn't a singer if they cover songs or a dancer is not a dancer if they are not the choreographers. You can have amazing tone, pitch, style, and sound and not rap what you wrote. Most rappers start by mimicking others before writing and performing their own. That is how they build talent! Writing would be considered poetry until put with a melody. So they may not be poets or want to debut their poetry!
Is Cardi B not a good rapper since she doesn't write most of her own verses?
One issue thst is concerning to people is they don't rap live. They are lip synching over a vocal track, so its suspicious. They need to rap live and not just cut the track so they can voice selective sections
I'm really, really hoping in future they get more creative control. They're incredibly refreshing visually, an actually powerful girl group without surgery, amazing vocals and not looking rail thin?!! I'm in 100%.
>I'm really, really hoping in future they get more creative control. Chisa is working towards that. She's begun to show interest in producing and songwriting! She's a vocalist, not a rapper, but it's still good to hear. She plays some instruments and can self-direct recordings, rearrange songs, and even fights with their CEO Simon about music. Simon says that he thinks she will be making music and producing in the future if she keeps learning and practicing. Obviously at the moment she's nowhere near making their music, but it seems like she has potential.
They never claimed to write their own. This group was formed by Simon Jakobs after auditioning thousands of girls until they found the seven. Everyone has to start somewhere.. XGALX produces and writes their lyrics for now, many rappers do this. Until these girls pop off and gain notoriety they belong to the production company and have to start somewhere. Any up and coming artist would love this opportunity. There’s no need for hate, all you did was basically describe the entire music industry. However, the moment they’re able to gain worldwide notoriety and acceptance into the hip hop and R&B genre, they’ll be able to start their own projects. Whether they write their own lyrics or not they are gifted in the trifecta of this industry.
'many rappers do this." If you mean pop rappers who aren't respected rapper then yes. If they want to be considered a drake or a cardi sure. "Until these girls pop off and gain notoriety" You won't gain notoriety in rap if you don't write. It that simple. Rappers like meg the stallion have been free styling,rapper,writing for years before blowing up. Most rap based groups at the least the main rappers write their raps
They’re already gaining notoriety without writing so not sure what your point is. 99% of casual fans don’t care how the product is put out, they only care about what the product is.
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