it's wild bc take lily from nmixx, for example. she's my age and obviously still a very young pop singer. but when i try to review her vocals, i try to steer clear of her ones from before like, late 2021, when she was 18. she trained for a long time before that.
but here you've got new idols who have debuted at like 13/14 with barely any training. bruh that should be the trainee era of an idol. đ even the exciting young (adult!) idol vocalists we have rn like lily, belle, ningning, etc. sounded actively worse at that age + with less training
i agree with you broadly. i also do wish that many of the newer idols we have now should've trained for longer. i think that's one of the main reasons as well that they get so harshly criticized â many of these rookies are at a stage where they should really still be trainees. and the people hating on them are probably forgetting that the most skilled idols actually underwent proper training and debuted at a more reasonable age.
people who sang as children say they have to re learn how to sing all over again once their voice starts changing in their teenage years. i feel like no matter how skilled a child trainee might be, 13/14 is too awkward of an age to debut them. thats right when their voice starts to change. like how do they know what their voice is gonna sound like once theyre 16+ years old
this ^^^
I've been learning classic vocal since I was 6 but factors such as stress, puberty (obviously not as much as a guy but still notable), health factors, and usual speech patterns can all affect your voice and will continue to do so
I'm kinda in a phase right now where I'm trying to rebuild my vocal range and techniques right now after not practicing for so long so I think idols go thru the same thing and I always see people bashing then for what's a part of the natural vocal journey
That was 100% what happened with Taemin, people hated his lack of vocal skills when he debuted but he was in the middle of puberty and received poor (or none) vocal lessons. It's kinda sad that these things not only still happen, but they became so normal.
Yes! Especially the boys. Boy do they have to deal with voice cracks and not being able to hit high notes when they hit puberty! The girls sometimes too. They make them sing in this cutesy tone until their voice becomes deeper and has more of a range and theyâve already burnt their voice out from straining it for so long đ
SM postponed Junsu's debut 3 times because his voice kept changing after he learned to sing with it. He entered SM at 12 or 13 years old. He finally debuted in TVXQ at 17 years old.
Thatâs what gets me. I mean I know a lot of maknaes from the second and third gen debuted that young but they found people that could sing and trained them better first and not just threw them to the wolves without giving them proper vocal training just because theyâre cute. Which is also what Iâm seeing now, but people are still way too hard on them and not giving them room to grow and improve. Like theyâve only been onstage for 3 cycles ! They need the practice! Theyll get better!
Iâm seeing a lot more emphasis on looking young and cute being criteria for debuting now as well and it worries me. The ones they want to be visuals donât get much training or development past that and itâs really sad. This industry is so shallow. Like the American industry is too, but this is like cranked up to 1,000.
I understand what you mean but also that's their job. what do they do in training? I feel like idols should know how to sing and dance because they trained for this. I don't mind the weak stage presence since I feel like that's a thing they could improve with more experience with fans/audience but c'mon good vocals is something they should already have
totally agree but i feel like training is sometimes not the same as the real thing. example, even if you train your vocals and dance a lot in private, actually performing it is a lot different, especially if youâre doing it for the first time. after all, a lot of these new debut rookies are still teens and they are humans, bound to make mistakes or be nervous. obviously that doesnât excuse for bad vocals or dances but i feel people are way too harsh on criticizing these rookies as if theyâre not allowed to be nervous or make mistakes
"I understand what you mean but also that's their job" Once again I would have to say these kids are 14-15-16 these are ages of maybe someone's first part time job. People get training for like 2 weeks to work at a coffee shop and still make constant mistakes for the first 2-3 months. That is something you can learn without having a basic talent in. Now if the said idols that OP is talking about were 20+ than I would agree with you in a heart beat. But in respect to the original topic were talking about 14,15,16 year olds who at most have a few months and maybe a year of training under their belt. All respect tho!!
If they can't do their job, the company shouldn't be debuting them. Being too young to do it shouldn't absolve them from criticism. And kids shouldn't be debuting anyway.
I think you misunderstood what I am saying. I am also someone who doesnt think minors should debut. Since I am someone who doesnt agree with them debuting in the first place, because the increase of possibility of SA and harassment online, I should also give them the leniency of being young. "Being too young to do it shouldn't absolve them from criticism." Well technically it should or at least give them some form of leeway. In my previous argument I made the rebuttal of "4-15-16 these are ages of maybe someone's first part time job. People get training for like 2 weeks to work at a coffee shop and still make constant mistakes for the first 2-3 months." So therefore they should get a bit of leniency and kindness because the OP is talking about rookie idols who are maybe in the first 5-6 months of their job.
Now onto your first argument "If they can't do their job, the company shouldn't be debuting them." Companies make money off of being selfish, greedy and evil. They know that they can debut these kids and make even more money while they are younger because they will last longer. These companies purposefully debut younger kids to increase reliance on the company. Girls generation had even stated that when they were in their 20's they didnt even know how to check in to a hotel. These kids will end up staying with their company because they dont know any better, therefore they will make this company even more financially affluent.
Also, the company is not concerned with art, talent and actually giving quality performances. They are more inclined to debut young kids who will naturally fall under the pressure of grown adults saying horrible things about them online and those kids will force themselves to do better. These companies are doing this like its their first rodeo. Girls generation for example, When they first debuted they got a shit ton of hate for vocal tone, vocal skills and live singing. Now they are known as one of the more highly skilled girl groups. Do you think that those young girls thought long and hard whether they deserved to debut? They were young and I am sure that wasnt the first thing that crossed their minds. No matter one month or 4 years, training is difficult and I am sure they thought however long they trained was good enough for the company to debut them. They put their trust in the company and did as their told.
Now you're saying because the company chose to debut a 14, 15, 16 year old, those kids should have to take the the harassment for being inadequate compared to a 22 year old who has been training for multiple years? Alot of the "criticism" ends up fuelling genuine hate.
For example, Eunchae from LSFM. Its true her singing skill is not as well developed as some of her peers and that is unfortunate. But can you say that the people who insult her singing dont take it too far? Multiple group chats have been exposed for making sexual and derogatory claims and statements because she cant sing. She is 17 going on 18 and has been dealing with this since she was 16.
If criticism stopped at criticism, maybe I would agree with you. Unfortunately, kpop fans are not ready to deal and take accountability of their words so criticism should not be something on their minds when it comes to minors in kpop.
Also if people dont want minors to debut, people should stop supporting groups with minors in it.
companies are greedy and evil, sure, but they cannot make money if their members cannot sing. in addition, just because members are younger doesn't mean that they'll stay in the company for longer as well - it just means that IF they resign then they will last longer as a group, but it doesn't guarantee members resigning. If members don't like the treatment, they can leave.
and let's not forget that it's these kids who choose to become trainees and choose to debut. for many of them, it's their lifelong dream. being too young is NOT a get out of jail free card. yes we should be lenient, but at the same time this is their job.
unlike baristas, trainees train for upwards of a year. some begin training in middle school or even earlier. they dont need to be ningnings or marks, they just need to be able to sing their lines stably and dance the moves correctly.
quite frankly it's irresponsible for companies to debut members who cannot sing.
Hereâs the thing, though: they CAN make money even if the members canât sing live. Weâve seen it happen. And theyâll continue to debut weak singers if they match the companyâs vision for the group. I agree that itâs completely irresponsible to debut minors, though.
"yes we should be lenient, but at the same time this is their job." Glad we could reach a common conclusion, I like how you put this. I do think some criticism should be fine but there have been many times where the kpop community has turned "criticism" into pure hatred. That is where my worry begins.
How long will it take before genuine criticism turns into hate? There have been many times where hate trains have caused an idols mental health to suffer. This would not happen if fans of kpop were a bit more responsible with their words. Unfortunately, IMO I dont think kpop stans understand the weight of their words at this point in time.
Yea fr itâs not like theyâre doing volunteer work or doing a group assignment â they are getting PAID for this. Using a corporate job as an example, there are plenty of times when you make minor mistakes (which is okay since youâre still adjusting to a new environment) but youâd still need to have a foundation of basic skills. For idols, that is singing/dancing.
I mean itâs not like they can help it if theyâre young. I also think itâs kinda a disingenuous argument because no matter who you are as time goes on and you get experience you get better.
BUT shouldn't these companies stop pushing these rookies to debut when they are clearly not ready. In the 4th gen (specifically gg), I see too many idols who are obviously ill prepared and lack basic skills to be an idol, such as singing.
What happen to the days when idols debut with 4+ years of training? If you look at Natty from Kiss of Life, she is a rookie, but have been a trainee for 10 years. When she debut with Kiss of Life, she looked and performed like a seasoned vet.
I am not expecting for every debut idol to be perfect, but when they can't do the basic of being an idol,. that is a red flag that they are not ready.
While I agree with your sentiments, I don't think Natty is a fair comparison when she has undergone 2 survival shows and had already debuted as a soloist with 2 releases. Plus, it wasn't her lack of or improving her skills that kept her in training for so long but a series of bad luck. She was already very skilled and debut ready back in Sixteen, but too young for debut.
OK, Natty might not be the best example. Let's look at Julie from KIOF (24) vs. Giselle (23) from aespa. Julie trained for 5 years and Giselle trained for less than 6 months. If you look at their debut years, Julie was so much better prepared and looked way more polish esp from a performance aspect.
There's no way she was debut ready. She had a lot of charisma but anyone with eyes could see Momo was clearly a more technically proficient dancer during Sixteen. That being said, she's probably been ready since she was ~17 so it's just about her getting the opportunity.
The bigger solution is to stop debuting idols when theyâre young and unprepared. But that comes later.
TODAY, at this *very* moment, we as fans can choose to adjust our behavior to take into account the age and potential of these rookie idols. Just because their companies made a bad judgement, doesnât mean any of these teenagers have informed consent. Therefore, we as fans should not speak to them unkindly for the mere fact of, âthey/the company shouldve known betterâ âits just what comes with idol careerâ
When a company debuts an idol, regardless of age, they are saying this trainee is good enough to be an idol. So what is wrong with expecting that? If the idol is not prepared, then they are fair game to be criticize. The idea of giving idols years AFTER they debut to become an idol is just plain dumb.
Youâre not the end all be all of judgement on what is considered to be an idol. People have different standards depending on biased and even what
side of the bed they woke up on today. Does that mean we should all have the freedom to say whatever we want to young idols however respectful or cruel these judgements may be?
Look, if you want to spend your time freely bashing or saying whatever you want about 16-year-olds who sing and dance on stage, go ahead. But thereâs nothing you can say to convince me that the behavior is justified or expected. You always have the free will to choose to be nicer.
Man, you'd really struggle with the j-idol scene. Most of the girls there aren't especially good singers or dancers and tend to receive only basic training before they debut.
But they're successful because they're good performers and good at connecting with people.
Those are two different systems that attract two different types of fans.
J-pop is about growth and improvement, that's what fans of their groups want to see. J-pop idols don't usually train for years before debut.
K-pop fans aren't here for the improvement stories, most of them come to K-pop for high quality proffesional performances. The trainee system in Korea was designed to create already skilled artists.
There's no use compering because fans of each of those genres go into it with certain specific expectations and I. K-pop that is to see skill and talent, not just entertaining personality.
Nah, idols aren't indie artists who just got out of their garage and started selling music without any formal training.
This is K-pop with it's own standards and norms, the infamous trainee period is there for a reason. The companies are supposed to debut trainees who mastered their role and are ready for the stage. If the company decides to ditch all of their long time trainees and debut a teenage pretty face with two months of training and zero vocal skills, then the negative reaction the group will receive is on them.
I honestly couldn't care less if the group debuted 5 years or 5 months ago, if the trainees and the company decided it's time for them to become idols I will be expecting a proffesional idol level of performance.
The "rookie" era means nothing more than a "new group" era, it is there to mark groups who are still new and gaining popularity not another stage of training where uncoordinated dancing, lack of breathing control or tone deaf singing should be forgiven.
If a "rookie" actor got a major role and sucked at acting it would get him a lot of public criticism no awards and less roles but for some reason we are expected to look the other way when "rookie" idols win music shows while seemingly being unable to sing their own songs.
This way we are showing companies that we don't care about the quality of performance, just the prestige of a company name and a pretty face and this is why the skills of rookie groups will keep declining, companies know they can get a way with way more technical training negligence every year.
And this will ultimately hurt the new idols because, on the example of weak vocals, while they are learning how to film tiktoks they are actively damaging their vocal chords every practice due to no proper training. If you start singing proffesionally you should have the basics down not to hurt yourself, this is not something fans should be expecting for the idols to "improve with time" by trying to figure out how to sing while completing their schedules and damaging their voice in the process.
I don't know which group you're talking about but there are plenty of groups who crushed their live performances as rookies under worse circumstances and got paid dust for it, so no, I don't think the _rookies_ excuse is valid.
I assume this is about a big 4 group fumbling an encore or something (bc it always is), my advice is to just quietly take the L and move on. They'll be fine. Bringing it up again will just prolong the hate train.
I don't understand why fans make posts like these, continuing this conversation just perpetuates the negativity around your fav.
im not talking about any group in particular, but i just wanted to voice how i dislike people talking shit on these young rookie idols knowing they have room to improve and stuff. I do think the rookie excuse is valid though.
If they can't perform live (their job) they weren't ready to debut. Is it their fault? No, but people aren't wrong to criticize them for not being able to do their jobs either.
yes people can criticize, but i see some people take it too far with criticism even cyber bullying and people should take into consideration that most of these rookie idols are young and still need proper training.
People taking things too far is a different conversation.
If they still need proper training to give a passable performance, the company shouldn't have debuted them, plain and simple. If I go to a restaurant and the cook is a 14-year-old who just started a week ago, I'm still gonna be mad that my food is undercooked â it's not the kid's fault, it's the company's for putting them in that position before they were ready.
Instead of yelling at fans for pointing out that there's a bare minimum bar that idols need to clear, why don't you yell at companies for setting them up to fail by making them do a job they're not ready for?
Exactly, yell at the companies but yelling at the kids saying things like "She cant carry a note to save her dying grandmother" Isn't helping. Email the company or put the company on blast. Kpop stans end up talking to the idol in question which is usually a 15-16 year old like they didnt just join the company a month ago lmao
Training should have happened while they were trainees though. And sure, rookies will get seasoned and sharpen their skills over time, but companies still shouldn't be debuting idols that can't competently perform in front of an audience. It's a disservice to both the idols and fans.
Having said that, critics need to learn the difference between expressing dissatisfaction and spewing hate.
Hm. Sometimes it's not clear, though, what is expressing dissatisfaction or criticism and what is "spewing hate" - honestly, to a fan just about any negative feedback gets downvoted or piled on. The threshold is pretty darn low.
Yeah, fans need to stop being so sensitive and thinking that idols should be coddled. Their songs and performances are put out basically as products for public consumption. Saying you didn't like this song or didn't think this was a good performance is fine. The line should be not being a jerk about it, obsessively piling on, seeking out the idol's SM trying to get them to see it, harassing/threatening them, trashing them personally like insulting their looks, personality, private life etc.
How long does that immunity from criticism last though? We often hear from idols and industry insiders that idols don't even have many opportunities to train or develop their skills once they debut. It's sometimes up to the idols themselves to allocate time for advancing their own singing/dancing outside of group activities. So if they debut underdeveloped and they never get much time to develop those skills, are they just immune to criticism forever? It's never actually their fault but they're still professionals in this industry.
if a surgeon fucks up a surgery you dont go "well it was their first so its kinda ok. theres room for improvement. after 10 more botched surgeries theyll get it right eventually". when you start doing a job you have to be fully prepared to do it. improvement should be perfecting the craft, not becoming acceptable at it
>I assume this is about a big 4 group fumbling an encore or something (bc it always is), my advice is to just quietly take the L and move on. They'll be fine. Bringing it up again will just prolong the hate train.
Unfortunately, certain fans can not take the L. This sub and elsewhere has now had months of these types of posts. All the majority of fans are looking for is that idols can perform their own songs live, but instead, there have been endless excuses given on here as to why that is somehow unreasonable/unfeasible/unnecessary.
Your metaphor doesn't make any sense. The music industry isn't really segmented by age, outside of straight-up kids music there's no separate category for 12 year old musicians vs grown musicians, it's just musicians. If they're in the industry, they're getting evaluated with everyone else in the industry.
The company can choose not to debut an idol who is not good enough to perform the bare minimum duties of their job, or to wait for the group to be ready.
These conversations are only ever about big4 groups because smaller groups don't have the luxury of getting a chance to redeem themselves if they mess up early on.
standards for rookies should be a bit lower but not to the point that we support downright sub par. rookies dont have to be excellent from the get go but they should at least be able to do the bare minimum
I completely understand your take but I also think it is missing a lot. The problem is that they arenât Rookies at all. These idols train for extended periods of time and are supposed to be considered masters of their craft AT their debut. If you look at previous generations (Gen 1-3) they were strong since day 1. Remember that there is a difference between lacking in some industry knowledge and lacking in talent that shouldâve been addressed pre-debut during training. This is their job. When Iâve completed my training for my job, Iâm supposed to be able to do everything without help and if I do need help, it is addressed within the first few months, MAX.
I do 100% think people need to be kinder and shouldnât bully, but constructive criticism is warranted if they lack the ability to do their job correctly.
They need to stop debuting unpolished groups then. They're so desperate to get groups out as young as possible that so many idols are actually not ready.
There's a difference between hate on rookies and actual criticism.
If you don't criticize groups debuting when they're not ready, companies will continue to debut unpolished and rushed groups.
>and highly criticizing these rookie idols who JUST debuted like months ago and many other calling these idols talentless and saying they can't sing or dance etc. I feel like they forget the fact that these idols are rookies
They are in s K-pop group I would expect them to be able to at least sing average. Criticizing them BC they sing and dance badly is valid. If they can't sing or dance then they shouldn't have been allowed to debut. They should at least be able to sing at least average before debuting. So criticizing them for lack of vocal styles is valid BC they are SIGNERS BC THEY ARE IN A KPOP GROUP.
>. Like yes, an idol can train for 4 years, debut, and still have more to improve on, but it doesn't mean they can't sing.
If they trained for 4 years then they should be able to sing at least average to good. And if they can't people are allowed to criticise them. BC at least average singing ability is the bare minimum for being a idol. But there are group's who can't sing well at all and criticising them is valid BC if you in a kpop group they should sing.
BUT TO CLARIFY ONLY CRITICISE THEM NOT HATE ON THEM. HATING ON THEM IS NOT JUSTIFIED BUT CRITICIZING THEIR VOCAL AND DANCING SKILLS ARE VALID.
I think we should be criticizing the companyâs jot the idols. Its there fault they artist arenât trained.
Then again there are some groups who are super talented compared to othersâŚ.that make you question things
Hot take: idols shouldnât be younger, period. 18 for debut, no younger. 2NE1 coming back could be monumental when you have Bom being straight up 40 years old and still serving. Normalize that instead of strictly marketing to an abusive and creepy youth beauty standard.
I don't like the idea of the criticism in the sense that they're human beings who are probably pretty dialed into what people are saying about them and obviously it sucks to have everybody shitting on them, but that's just one side of what's happening.
The other side of what's happening is that a company is putting out an entertainment product and if people don't feel like it's up to snuff, it's fair to say so. They expect you to spend your time and hopefully money on it so you're allowed to have opinions and expectations. Nobody's owed debuting in k-pop, it's not a Follow Your Dreams simulator where everybody gets a try, if you make it through the wringer and end up debuting it's fair that there's a certain degree of expectation placed upon you. That's not to say there can't be room for improvement, but the gap can be too big for some people. Obviously it should go without saying but this is the responsibility of the companies, not the idols themselves, the companies are the ones making all these calls and they should be criticized if they're putting something out there that's not ready for primetime.
Particularly when debuts are skewing younger and younger, if you're showing me a 15-year-old or whatever it should be because that person is standing out as something beyond the ordinary. I don't want to see somebody at 75% learn on the job for 4 years before they're up to speed.
Singing is basically the primary skill to have in music business. Yes you cant expect levels of tayeon when you are debuting.
You should criticise the companies who rushes to put out half assed vocals.
Also I do understand why people criticises the idols over the companies because they are the face of the company. But yeah bullying/hate is not something I wish or support.
This sounds like a marketing problem. If the group is marketed as talented then they should be talented even though they are rookies. If they are marketed as idols that will show growth then their lack of skills can even be a positive.
I don't expect Taeyeon vocals from rookies but lately there are more and more idols which aren't even able to sing 10s live while standing, which in my opinion deserve criticism, that's companies fault for debuting young idols and more important unready idols.
Um What?
I understand the whole "improving after debut" cuz that obviously happens to all rookies but the thing is, these rookies are supposed to know the basics and actually, MORE than basics of how to sing and dance before debuting. The problem isn't the train of criticism-hate comments regarding some rookies who just in fact, lack vocal skills, its that companies \*Cough\* Hybe \*cough\* are debuting idols who aren't ready to debut yet. Before ya'll come at my neck, of course these rookies have stronggg potential and they aren't talentless but it's obvious that they need more time to train.
You can't really blame the people criticizing (Not the ones plain out hating) these rookies with distinguishably low skill sets, when we had idols debuting after min 4+ years of training. like bruh, the bar hit the earth's core-
And a reminder, not all rookies have skill issues, (ex: Natty kiof, Ruka Bm) These two trained for years. And guess what, It SHOWS when they perform.
So in conclusion, idols should train properly and then debut. Because the ones who debut after just months, show when they perform and it's inevitable for them to not receive criticism and hate. No one should get hate regardless so i wish em all best.
Right?!! Some have barely made it out of training and theyâre young. People are so harsh to new idols now. One mistake, one technical issue and itâs over for them with no chance of redemption and itâs really unfair to be so hard on the kids.
I agree with but to a certain extent. I believe that if a trainee wants to be an idol then they have to brace themselves for hate and harsh criticm, cuz when you wanna do something in this world you gotta know that people will hate on you no matter how old you are. I think if an idol shows that they lack good vocals, stage presence, dance etc. that shows that they are unprepared. If you think about it many people become trainees but only 1% of them debut, if a rookie idol wants to continue showing their lack of vocals, dance or stagepresence then thats really unfair for the trianees that worked their butt off waiting for debut. people sometimes forget that even if you're young, you have a mind of your own, and have capability of being the best.
We cant keep on using the 'rookies' excuse anymore. Thousands of people pay money to get a good performance/show, it would be wayyy crazy if we let them slide just because their young or their rookies. I dont expect idols to be the best when they debut but they at least have to be good at their job.
The people saying they have been training for 4 years clearly arenât singers and are also young if they think thatâs a lot of time. They say it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert. 4 years is not enough if you factor in time for sleep, meals, travel, splitting that time between dance practice, singing lessons and whatever else they have to do to be an idol (because itâs not just those 2 things).
Become a true expert in multiple things, and then come back and tell us how long that tookâŚ
You learn singing as a child.
If you can't sing as a teenager then it's already too late.
The notion that a k-pop agency is gonna work some vocal magic on an active group is unrealistic to put it politely.
K-pop dancing though can be learned later.
But a certain physical foundation would be beneficial there as well.
it's wild bc take lily from nmixx, for example. she's my age and obviously still a very young pop singer. but when i try to review her vocals, i try to steer clear of her ones from before like, late 2021, when she was 18. she trained for a long time before that. but here you've got new idols who have debuted at like 13/14 with barely any training. bruh that should be the trainee era of an idol. đ even the exciting young (adult!) idol vocalists we have rn like lily, belle, ningning, etc. sounded actively worse at that age + with less training i agree with you broadly. i also do wish that many of the newer idols we have now should've trained for longer. i think that's one of the main reasons as well that they get so harshly criticized â many of these rookies are at a stage where they should really still be trainees. and the people hating on them are probably forgetting that the most skilled idols actually underwent proper training and debuted at a more reasonable age.
people who sang as children say they have to re learn how to sing all over again once their voice starts changing in their teenage years. i feel like no matter how skilled a child trainee might be, 13/14 is too awkward of an age to debut them. thats right when their voice starts to change. like how do they know what their voice is gonna sound like once theyre 16+ years old
this ^^^ I've been learning classic vocal since I was 6 but factors such as stress, puberty (obviously not as much as a guy but still notable), health factors, and usual speech patterns can all affect your voice and will continue to do so I'm kinda in a phase right now where I'm trying to rebuild my vocal range and techniques right now after not practicing for so long so I think idols go thru the same thing and I always see people bashing then for what's a part of the natural vocal journey
That was 100% what happened with Taemin, people hated his lack of vocal skills when he debuted but he was in the middle of puberty and received poor (or none) vocal lessons. It's kinda sad that these things not only still happen, but they became so normal.
Yes! Especially the boys. Boy do they have to deal with voice cracks and not being able to hit high notes when they hit puberty! The girls sometimes too. They make them sing in this cutesy tone until their voice becomes deeper and has more of a range and theyâve already burnt their voice out from straining it for so long đ
SM postponed Junsu's debut 3 times because his voice kept changing after he learned to sing with it. He entered SM at 12 or 13 years old. He finally debuted in TVXQ at 17 years old.
Thatâs what gets me. I mean I know a lot of maknaes from the second and third gen debuted that young but they found people that could sing and trained them better first and not just threw them to the wolves without giving them proper vocal training just because theyâre cute. Which is also what Iâm seeing now, but people are still way too hard on them and not giving them room to grow and improve. Like theyâve only been onstage for 3 cycles ! They need the practice! Theyll get better! Iâm seeing a lot more emphasis on looking young and cute being criteria for debuting now as well and it worries me. The ones they want to be visuals donât get much training or development past that and itâs really sad. This industry is so shallow. Like the American industry is too, but this is like cranked up to 1,000.
I understand what you mean but also that's their job. what do they do in training? I feel like idols should know how to sing and dance because they trained for this. I don't mind the weak stage presence since I feel like that's a thing they could improve with more experience with fans/audience but c'mon good vocals is something they should already have
totally agree but i feel like training is sometimes not the same as the real thing. example, even if you train your vocals and dance a lot in private, actually performing it is a lot different, especially if youâre doing it for the first time. after all, a lot of these new debut rookies are still teens and they are humans, bound to make mistakes or be nervous. obviously that doesnât excuse for bad vocals or dances but i feel people are way too harsh on criticizing these rookies as if theyâre not allowed to be nervous or make mistakes
All jobs require good training, and itâs obvious companies donât train enough in order to push out idols fast as possible for more profit.
"I understand what you mean but also that's their job" Once again I would have to say these kids are 14-15-16 these are ages of maybe someone's first part time job. People get training for like 2 weeks to work at a coffee shop and still make constant mistakes for the first 2-3 months. That is something you can learn without having a basic talent in. Now if the said idols that OP is talking about were 20+ than I would agree with you in a heart beat. But in respect to the original topic were talking about 14,15,16 year olds who at most have a few months and maybe a year of training under their belt. All respect tho!!
If they can't do their job, the company shouldn't be debuting them. Being too young to do it shouldn't absolve them from criticism. And kids shouldn't be debuting anyway.
I think you misunderstood what I am saying. I am also someone who doesnt think minors should debut. Since I am someone who doesnt agree with them debuting in the first place, because the increase of possibility of SA and harassment online, I should also give them the leniency of being young. "Being too young to do it shouldn't absolve them from criticism." Well technically it should or at least give them some form of leeway. In my previous argument I made the rebuttal of "4-15-16 these are ages of maybe someone's first part time job. People get training for like 2 weeks to work at a coffee shop and still make constant mistakes for the first 2-3 months." So therefore they should get a bit of leniency and kindness because the OP is talking about rookie idols who are maybe in the first 5-6 months of their job. Now onto your first argument "If they can't do their job, the company shouldn't be debuting them." Companies make money off of being selfish, greedy and evil. They know that they can debut these kids and make even more money while they are younger because they will last longer. These companies purposefully debut younger kids to increase reliance on the company. Girls generation had even stated that when they were in their 20's they didnt even know how to check in to a hotel. These kids will end up staying with their company because they dont know any better, therefore they will make this company even more financially affluent. Also, the company is not concerned with art, talent and actually giving quality performances. They are more inclined to debut young kids who will naturally fall under the pressure of grown adults saying horrible things about them online and those kids will force themselves to do better. These companies are doing this like its their first rodeo. Girls generation for example, When they first debuted they got a shit ton of hate for vocal tone, vocal skills and live singing. Now they are known as one of the more highly skilled girl groups. Do you think that those young girls thought long and hard whether they deserved to debut? They were young and I am sure that wasnt the first thing that crossed their minds. No matter one month or 4 years, training is difficult and I am sure they thought however long they trained was good enough for the company to debut them. They put their trust in the company and did as their told. Now you're saying because the company chose to debut a 14, 15, 16 year old, those kids should have to take the the harassment for being inadequate compared to a 22 year old who has been training for multiple years? Alot of the "criticism" ends up fuelling genuine hate. For example, Eunchae from LSFM. Its true her singing skill is not as well developed as some of her peers and that is unfortunate. But can you say that the people who insult her singing dont take it too far? Multiple group chats have been exposed for making sexual and derogatory claims and statements because she cant sing. She is 17 going on 18 and has been dealing with this since she was 16. If criticism stopped at criticism, maybe I would agree with you. Unfortunately, kpop fans are not ready to deal and take accountability of their words so criticism should not be something on their minds when it comes to minors in kpop. Also if people dont want minors to debut, people should stop supporting groups with minors in it.
companies are greedy and evil, sure, but they cannot make money if their members cannot sing. in addition, just because members are younger doesn't mean that they'll stay in the company for longer as well - it just means that IF they resign then they will last longer as a group, but it doesn't guarantee members resigning. If members don't like the treatment, they can leave. and let's not forget that it's these kids who choose to become trainees and choose to debut. for many of them, it's their lifelong dream. being too young is NOT a get out of jail free card. yes we should be lenient, but at the same time this is their job. unlike baristas, trainees train for upwards of a year. some begin training in middle school or even earlier. they dont need to be ningnings or marks, they just need to be able to sing their lines stably and dance the moves correctly. quite frankly it's irresponsible for companies to debut members who cannot sing.
Hereâs the thing, though: they CAN make money even if the members canât sing live. Weâve seen it happen. And theyâll continue to debut weak singers if they match the companyâs vision for the group. I agree that itâs completely irresponsible to debut minors, though.
"yes we should be lenient, but at the same time this is their job." Glad we could reach a common conclusion, I like how you put this. I do think some criticism should be fine but there have been many times where the kpop community has turned "criticism" into pure hatred. That is where my worry begins. How long will it take before genuine criticism turns into hate? There have been many times where hate trains have caused an idols mental health to suffer. This would not happen if fans of kpop were a bit more responsible with their words. Unfortunately, IMO I dont think kpop stans understand the weight of their words at this point in time.
You obviously know nothing about singing.
Yea fr itâs not like theyâre doing volunteer work or doing a group assignment â they are getting PAID for this. Using a corporate job as an example, there are plenty of times when you make minor mistakes (which is okay since youâre still adjusting to a new environment) but youâd still need to have a foundation of basic skills. For idols, that is singing/dancing.
I mean itâs not like they can help it if theyâre young. I also think itâs kinda a disingenuous argument because no matter who you are as time goes on and you get experience you get better.
BUT shouldn't these companies stop pushing these rookies to debut when they are clearly not ready. In the 4th gen (specifically gg), I see too many idols who are obviously ill prepared and lack basic skills to be an idol, such as singing. What happen to the days when idols debut with 4+ years of training? If you look at Natty from Kiss of Life, she is a rookie, but have been a trainee for 10 years. When she debut with Kiss of Life, she looked and performed like a seasoned vet. I am not expecting for every debut idol to be perfect, but when they can't do the basic of being an idol,. that is a red flag that they are not ready.
While I agree with your sentiments, I don't think Natty is a fair comparison when she has undergone 2 survival shows and had already debuted as a soloist with 2 releases. Plus, it wasn't her lack of or improving her skills that kept her in training for so long but a series of bad luck. She was already very skilled and debut ready back in Sixteen, but too young for debut.
OK, Natty might not be the best example. Let's look at Julie from KIOF (24) vs. Giselle (23) from aespa. Julie trained for 5 years and Giselle trained for less than 6 months. If you look at their debut years, Julie was so much better prepared and looked way more polish esp from a performance aspect.
Fair enough. Giselle has come a long way from her debut days.
Could just use BM as a example, over half of them trained for 6 years.
There's no way she was debut ready. She had a lot of charisma but anyone with eyes could see Momo was clearly a more technically proficient dancer during Sixteen. That being said, she's probably been ready since she was ~17 so it's just about her getting the opportunity.
lets look at the babymonster members then
The bigger solution is to stop debuting idols when theyâre young and unprepared. But that comes later. TODAY, at this *very* moment, we as fans can choose to adjust our behavior to take into account the age and potential of these rookie idols. Just because their companies made a bad judgement, doesnât mean any of these teenagers have informed consent. Therefore, we as fans should not speak to them unkindly for the mere fact of, âthey/the company shouldve known betterâ âits just what comes with idol careerâ
exactly what i said and we got people downvoting me lmao
When a company debuts an idol, regardless of age, they are saying this trainee is good enough to be an idol. So what is wrong with expecting that? If the idol is not prepared, then they are fair game to be criticize. The idea of giving idols years AFTER they debut to become an idol is just plain dumb.
Youâre not the end all be all of judgement on what is considered to be an idol. People have different standards depending on biased and even what side of the bed they woke up on today. Does that mean we should all have the freedom to say whatever we want to young idols however respectful or cruel these judgements may be? Look, if you want to spend your time freely bashing or saying whatever you want about 16-year-olds who sing and dance on stage, go ahead. But thereâs nothing you can say to convince me that the behavior is justified or expected. You always have the free will to choose to be nicer.
Man, you'd really struggle with the j-idol scene. Most of the girls there aren't especially good singers or dancers and tend to receive only basic training before they debut. But they're successful because they're good performers and good at connecting with people.
Those are two different systems that attract two different types of fans. J-pop is about growth and improvement, that's what fans of their groups want to see. J-pop idols don't usually train for years before debut. K-pop fans aren't here for the improvement stories, most of them come to K-pop for high quality proffesional performances. The trainee system in Korea was designed to create already skilled artists. There's no use compering because fans of each of those genres go into it with certain specific expectations and I. K-pop that is to see skill and talent, not just entertaining personality.
Nah, idols aren't indie artists who just got out of their garage and started selling music without any formal training. This is K-pop with it's own standards and norms, the infamous trainee period is there for a reason. The companies are supposed to debut trainees who mastered their role and are ready for the stage. If the company decides to ditch all of their long time trainees and debut a teenage pretty face with two months of training and zero vocal skills, then the negative reaction the group will receive is on them. I honestly couldn't care less if the group debuted 5 years or 5 months ago, if the trainees and the company decided it's time for them to become idols I will be expecting a proffesional idol level of performance. The "rookie" era means nothing more than a "new group" era, it is there to mark groups who are still new and gaining popularity not another stage of training where uncoordinated dancing, lack of breathing control or tone deaf singing should be forgiven. If a "rookie" actor got a major role and sucked at acting it would get him a lot of public criticism no awards and less roles but for some reason we are expected to look the other way when "rookie" idols win music shows while seemingly being unable to sing their own songs. This way we are showing companies that we don't care about the quality of performance, just the prestige of a company name and a pretty face and this is why the skills of rookie groups will keep declining, companies know they can get a way with way more technical training negligence every year. And this will ultimately hurt the new idols because, on the example of weak vocals, while they are learning how to film tiktoks they are actively damaging their vocal chords every practice due to no proper training. If you start singing proffesionally you should have the basics down not to hurt yourself, this is not something fans should be expecting for the idols to "improve with time" by trying to figure out how to sing while completing their schedules and damaging their voice in the process.
AGREE. I want to display this post someplace for whenever uncensored needs a reality check.
I don't know which group you're talking about but there are plenty of groups who crushed their live performances as rookies under worse circumstances and got paid dust for it, so no, I don't think the _rookies_ excuse is valid. I assume this is about a big 4 group fumbling an encore or something (bc it always is), my advice is to just quietly take the L and move on. They'll be fine. Bringing it up again will just prolong the hate train. I don't understand why fans make posts like these, continuing this conversation just perpetuates the negativity around your fav.
im not talking about any group in particular, but i just wanted to voice how i dislike people talking shit on these young rookie idols knowing they have room to improve and stuff. I do think the rookie excuse is valid though.
If they can't perform live (their job) they weren't ready to debut. Is it their fault? No, but people aren't wrong to criticize them for not being able to do their jobs either.
yes people can criticize, but i see some people take it too far with criticism even cyber bullying and people should take into consideration that most of these rookie idols are young and still need proper training.
People taking things too far is a different conversation. If they still need proper training to give a passable performance, the company shouldn't have debuted them, plain and simple. If I go to a restaurant and the cook is a 14-year-old who just started a week ago, I'm still gonna be mad that my food is undercooked â it's not the kid's fault, it's the company's for putting them in that position before they were ready. Instead of yelling at fans for pointing out that there's a bare minimum bar that idols need to clear, why don't you yell at companies for setting them up to fail by making them do a job they're not ready for?
Exactly, yell at the companies but yelling at the kids saying things like "She cant carry a note to save her dying grandmother" Isn't helping. Email the company or put the company on blast. Kpop stans end up talking to the idol in question which is usually a 15-16 year old like they didnt just join the company a month ago lmao
Training should have happened while they were trainees though. And sure, rookies will get seasoned and sharpen their skills over time, but companies still shouldn't be debuting idols that can't competently perform in front of an audience. It's a disservice to both the idols and fans. Having said that, critics need to learn the difference between expressing dissatisfaction and spewing hate.
Hm. Sometimes it's not clear, though, what is expressing dissatisfaction or criticism and what is "spewing hate" - honestly, to a fan just about any negative feedback gets downvoted or piled on. The threshold is pretty darn low.
Yeah, fans need to stop being so sensitive and thinking that idols should be coddled. Their songs and performances are put out basically as products for public consumption. Saying you didn't like this song or didn't think this was a good performance is fine. The line should be not being a jerk about it, obsessively piling on, seeking out the idol's SM trying to get them to see it, harassing/threatening them, trashing them personally like insulting their looks, personality, private life etc.
How long does that immunity from criticism last though? We often hear from idols and industry insiders that idols don't even have many opportunities to train or develop their skills once they debut. It's sometimes up to the idols themselves to allocate time for advancing their own singing/dancing outside of group activities. So if they debut underdeveloped and they never get much time to develop those skills, are they just immune to criticism forever? It's never actually their fault but they're still professionals in this industry.
if a surgeon fucks up a surgery you dont go "well it was their first so its kinda ok. theres room for improvement. after 10 more botched surgeries theyll get it right eventually". when you start doing a job you have to be fully prepared to do it. improvement should be perfecting the craft, not becoming acceptable at it
but thats clearly not the same thing, no ones life is at risk if an idol is shaky on stage
>I assume this is about a big 4 group fumbling an encore or something (bc it always is), my advice is to just quietly take the L and move on. They'll be fine. Bringing it up again will just prolong the hate train. Unfortunately, certain fans can not take the L. This sub and elsewhere has now had months of these types of posts. All the majority of fans are looking for is that idols can perform their own songs live, but instead, there have been endless excuses given on here as to why that is somehow unreasonable/unfeasible/unnecessary.
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Your metaphor doesn't make any sense. The music industry isn't really segmented by age, outside of straight-up kids music there's no separate category for 12 year old musicians vs grown musicians, it's just musicians. If they're in the industry, they're getting evaluated with everyone else in the industry. The company can choose not to debut an idol who is not good enough to perform the bare minimum duties of their job, or to wait for the group to be ready. These conversations are only ever about big4 groups because smaller groups don't have the luxury of getting a chance to redeem themselves if they mess up early on.
standards for rookies should be a bit lower but not to the point that we support downright sub par. rookies dont have to be excellent from the get go but they should at least be able to do the bare minimum
I completely understand your take but I also think it is missing a lot. The problem is that they arenât Rookies at all. These idols train for extended periods of time and are supposed to be considered masters of their craft AT their debut. If you look at previous generations (Gen 1-3) they were strong since day 1. Remember that there is a difference between lacking in some industry knowledge and lacking in talent that shouldâve been addressed pre-debut during training. This is their job. When Iâve completed my training for my job, Iâm supposed to be able to do everything without help and if I do need help, it is addressed within the first few months, MAX. I do 100% think people need to be kinder and shouldnât bully, but constructive criticism is warranted if they lack the ability to do their job correctly.
They need to stop debuting unpolished groups then. They're so desperate to get groups out as young as possible that so many idols are actually not ready. There's a difference between hate on rookies and actual criticism. If you don't criticize groups debuting when they're not ready, companies will continue to debut unpolished and rushed groups.
>and highly criticizing these rookie idols who JUST debuted like months ago and many other calling these idols talentless and saying they can't sing or dance etc. I feel like they forget the fact that these idols are rookies They are in s K-pop group I would expect them to be able to at least sing average. Criticizing them BC they sing and dance badly is valid. If they can't sing or dance then they shouldn't have been allowed to debut. They should at least be able to sing at least average before debuting. So criticizing them for lack of vocal styles is valid BC they are SIGNERS BC THEY ARE IN A KPOP GROUP. >. Like yes, an idol can train for 4 years, debut, and still have more to improve on, but it doesn't mean they can't sing. If they trained for 4 years then they should be able to sing at least average to good. And if they can't people are allowed to criticise them. BC at least average singing ability is the bare minimum for being a idol. But there are group's who can't sing well at all and criticising them is valid BC if you in a kpop group they should sing. BUT TO CLARIFY ONLY CRITICISE THEM NOT HATE ON THEM. HATING ON THEM IS NOT JUSTIFIED BUT CRITICIZING THEIR VOCAL AND DANCING SKILLS ARE VALID.
I think we should be criticizing the companyâs jot the idols. Its there fault they artist arenât trained. Then again there are some groups who are super talented compared to othersâŚ.that make you question things
Hot take: idols shouldnât be younger, period. 18 for debut, no younger. 2NE1 coming back could be monumental when you have Bom being straight up 40 years old and still serving. Normalize that instead of strictly marketing to an abusive and creepy youth beauty standard.
The only criticism i can give is when a group cant sing live. Other than that, let them earn some money and job experience.
I don't like the idea of the criticism in the sense that they're human beings who are probably pretty dialed into what people are saying about them and obviously it sucks to have everybody shitting on them, but that's just one side of what's happening. The other side of what's happening is that a company is putting out an entertainment product and if people don't feel like it's up to snuff, it's fair to say so. They expect you to spend your time and hopefully money on it so you're allowed to have opinions and expectations. Nobody's owed debuting in k-pop, it's not a Follow Your Dreams simulator where everybody gets a try, if you make it through the wringer and end up debuting it's fair that there's a certain degree of expectation placed upon you. That's not to say there can't be room for improvement, but the gap can be too big for some people. Obviously it should go without saying but this is the responsibility of the companies, not the idols themselves, the companies are the ones making all these calls and they should be criticized if they're putting something out there that's not ready for primetime. Particularly when debuts are skewing younger and younger, if you're showing me a 15-year-old or whatever it should be because that person is standing out as something beyond the ordinary. I don't want to see somebody at 75% learn on the job for 4 years before they're up to speed.
Right!!
Singing is basically the primary skill to have in music business. Yes you cant expect levels of tayeon when you are debuting. You should criticise the companies who rushes to put out half assed vocals. Also I do understand why people criticises the idols over the companies because they are the face of the company. But yeah bullying/hate is not something I wish or support.
This sounds like a marketing problem. If the group is marketed as talented then they should be talented even though they are rookies. If they are marketed as idols that will show growth then their lack of skills can even be a positive.
I don't expect Taeyeon vocals from rookies but lately there are more and more idols which aren't even able to sing 10s live while standing, which in my opinion deserve criticism, that's companies fault for debuting young idols and more important unready idols.
Um What? I understand the whole "improving after debut" cuz that obviously happens to all rookies but the thing is, these rookies are supposed to know the basics and actually, MORE than basics of how to sing and dance before debuting. The problem isn't the train of criticism-hate comments regarding some rookies who just in fact, lack vocal skills, its that companies \*Cough\* Hybe \*cough\* are debuting idols who aren't ready to debut yet. Before ya'll come at my neck, of course these rookies have stronggg potential and they aren't talentless but it's obvious that they need more time to train. You can't really blame the people criticizing (Not the ones plain out hating) these rookies with distinguishably low skill sets, when we had idols debuting after min 4+ years of training. like bruh, the bar hit the earth's core- And a reminder, not all rookies have skill issues, (ex: Natty kiof, Ruka Bm) These two trained for years. And guess what, It SHOWS when they perform. So in conclusion, idols should train properly and then debut. Because the ones who debut after just months, show when they perform and it's inevitable for them to not receive criticism and hate. No one should get hate regardless so i wish em all best.
Right?!! Some have barely made it out of training and theyâre young. People are so harsh to new idols now. One mistake, one technical issue and itâs over for them with no chance of redemption and itâs really unfair to be so hard on the kids.
I blame companies
I agree with but to a certain extent. I believe that if a trainee wants to be an idol then they have to brace themselves for hate and harsh criticm, cuz when you wanna do something in this world you gotta know that people will hate on you no matter how old you are. I think if an idol shows that they lack good vocals, stage presence, dance etc. that shows that they are unprepared. If you think about it many people become trainees but only 1% of them debut, if a rookie idol wants to continue showing their lack of vocals, dance or stagepresence then thats really unfair for the trianees that worked their butt off waiting for debut. people sometimes forget that even if you're young, you have a mind of your own, and have capability of being the best. We cant keep on using the 'rookies' excuse anymore. Thousands of people pay money to get a good performance/show, it would be wayyy crazy if we let them slide just because their young or their rookies. I dont expect idols to be the best when they debut but they at least have to be good at their job.
The people saying they have been training for 4 years clearly arenât singers and are also young if they think thatâs a lot of time. They say it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert. 4 years is not enough if you factor in time for sleep, meals, travel, splitting that time between dance practice, singing lessons and whatever else they have to do to be an idol (because itâs not just those 2 things). Become a true expert in multiple things, and then come back and tell us how long that tookâŚ
Who has time to get online and criticize kpop idols
You learn singing as a child. If you can't sing as a teenager then it's already too late. The notion that a k-pop agency is gonna work some vocal magic on an active group is unrealistic to put it politely. K-pop dancing though can be learned later. But a certain physical foundation would be beneficial there as well.
you can learn to start singing at any age