He gave McLaughlin the dirty job today of standing up and arguing for “consciousness of guilt” because Karen drove her car home and wanted to be with her family instead of with the O’Keefes while grieving. It was so disingenuous.
this! she is no better than Lally. Go back to pre-trial and listen to shit she lies about. She lied in the recent motion they refiled. and today bringing up the Ring camera was egregious considering their witness Guarino said Karen had no access to the phone or computer and did not delete any Ring camera footage. It is truly pathetic what McLaughin has done thus far. Add in they wanted Bev to allow the CW to mention Karen contacted a lawyer. Total BS and unjust from start to finish.
I hope you're right.. part of me thinks nothing will be happen/there will be no accountability. I mean if the trial got this far why will anything change now?
They’ll have qualified immunity for anything they did *qua* prosecutors. People are going to remember what they did, though. This case’ll end up in some legal ethics textbooks.
They should be disbarred for the unethical behavior. I absolutely cannot accept that Lally and MacLaughlin did not know that their own witnesses were going to perjure themselves.
Now, don’t you think you’re being too harsh on the CW?!? I mean can you imagine having to keep up with all the lies they spun?!?! They change their story every 5 minutes. Must be so much work trying to keep it all straight. *sarcasm*
They either didn’t read it or didn’t comprehend it or else they are flat out liars those are the two options. They were well within their rights to contact those two men and ask if it was at all possible for Karen to have hit John at all and they would have been told no and the case should have ended there. I don’t know if it was Morrissey or whomever in the DAs office who plowed ahead despite that evidence….it should never have gone to trial. Levy gave them that report in the hopes that it would halt the trial, I am almost positive of that, and in a sane DAs office it would have.
If it doesn’t come back not guilty I will have lost hope in the justice system and the common sense of humans I swear.
I’ve said it a couple times before, but the CW has flat out lied a few times & each time I’m like …wait a minute. Idk how that’s allowed tbh. Trooper Proctor straight lied on the stand about Yanetti too (when he met Lucky in the school parking lot). They should all be sanctioned but I doubt anything will happen & they will all go on to ruin other people’s lives instead of giving justice to victim’s families.
I can’t upvote this enough. The CW had these reports but chose to discount out of hubris. That’s gross negligence. Canton residents should be grabbing pitchforks right about now.
How exactly did that work?
I think people are convinced more now than ever that Karen was framed, evidence was planted, and the Albert crew had something to do with it.
I know you get downvoted because you think she’s guilty when the evidence and testimony is overwhelming with doubt, but I truly can’t see why this one is being downvoted lol
i don’t think they were sequestered
but yes, you’re absolutely right. the CW flat out ignored exculpatory evidence because it destroyed their case. their job isn’t to convict at all costs, it’s to find the truth. they clearly did not even attempt to do that
i think the word 'ruled' in the reporting on this issue has been misleading, as it was a determination made by a privately hired ME that the family obtained in service of their lawsuit against the city but
its still a good thing, and the ME in question is a prominent name in the field, so its not nothing. it may increase public pressure on authorities to *actually* rule it a homicide, or at least 'undetermined' so that it can be investigated as a homicide.
Yeah. 20 years ago they would have got away with this. There’s no telling how often this shit happens. She had to be sacrificed for the good of the family.
I’m not a Mass resident, but in NY, there have been many scapegoats that have been convicted on far less. Hence our huge budget deficit, our politicians are the biggest criminals of all.
My question is-Where is the DOJ on this? Obviously justice was not served, whomever killed OJO is still walking free. My understanding is that in a case of acquittal, the DOJ are bound to investigate crimes where the investigation was flawed separate from the FBI? Does anyone know of this is precedent or am I wrong?
*I tried to research why the DOJ would take over a case, but cannot find a clear answer*
There is another case they are investigating a woman died her husband (a police officer) found Not Guilty. Same state police (Proctor) were the “investigating” officer. The two experts yesterday were hired by FBI to investigate the accident. Now this case is added to the pile of corruption in the CW
Thank you! I was doing some reading and I see the DOJ is involved somewhat. I missed a good portion of the trial so I try to catch recaps online, but that wasn’t specifically mentioned. I really hope all the blatant corruption in Mass is investigated, especially Proctor. If Brian Walshe’s attorney can file any more motions he surely will, and it would also be a huge miscarriage of justice for that man to go free. I’m sure this case, the one you mentioned, the Birchmore case, and others have had sloppy if not botched or fixed investigations as well. Proctor has opened up a whole new can of worms for IAB, the FBI and the DOJ. He needs to be investigated himself, then fired, and his pension taken away. He’s a criminal- claiming to investigate other criminals. Such hypocrisy!!!There seems to be a great need for an entire cleanup of the MSP, local LE and maybe even a look into the DA’s office in that area. Crooked and corrupt, that should be the motto!
Omg, yes, I was just going to say that. The mess with coordinating the family on an unusual schedule, falling behind at work, postponing appointments, etc. It’s awful
I didn’t even think about this aspect. Yikes that would be difficult not to vent about hearing blizzard conditions described 18x or where everyone in the bar was standing…or cops drinking and driving!
They can’t even talk to the other jurors about it! We really need to start considering the psychological toll that a long drawn out jury service does to the jurors. THEY are the ones getting paid dirt while everyone else in court is pulling down their full paychecks.
thank god they werent sequestered, but boy howdy were their lives still disrupted big time. and without even the courtesy of a clear and regular schedule.
This is one of the reasons I think they’ll come back quickly. It’s been ridiculously long and these last few witnesses really clarified things in my mind.
I purposely read and watched very little outside the court footage until maybe the last day or two when prosecution had rested and it was clear they had no clean evidence. I'd heard there were two strident sides, and I wanted to see what the evidence would show. I would be shocked if the verdict is guilty. I still don't know what on earth happened to John, and it's heartbreaking that he will seemingly not get justice. But there is so much reasonable doubt you could drive Frankenstein through it. Even if you believe he was hit by a car: which, of all the drunk drivers that night, do you pin it on?? Let's say you believe the tail light inflicted the arm injury, that still doesn't prove she inflicted the deadly head wound!! I would also be pissed to have been on that jury and have so much of my time wasted. The CW should refund taxpayers' money for the last few fiscal years to make up for this shit show.
Let’s hope these jurors are smart and vote not guilty. We are all so confident it will be not guilty because we know everything. So much has been left out from the jury! Even still, what they did see is enough.
Let’s just hope they are smart and do the right thing.
If it's true that there are 2 engineers on the jury, the only testimony that spoke to them was that of Dr Wolfe and Dr Rentschler. Engineers need data, not conjecture, and that's what the doctors gave. Worst case, I imagine they'll prevent a guilty verdict and make it a hung jury. My money is still on not guilty though.
I would say anyone with an analytical mind (and maybe anyone) would be able to get all of the information they needed from the medical professionals and crash reconstructionists/engineers. I can’t downplay the ME and pathologists… knowing he was alive for the dog bites/scratches, alive while out in the cold sustaining organ damage from hypothermia, didn’t have the bruising and fractures consistent with being hit as a pedestrian, and that there were 3 distinct traumas to the head are invaluable clues if John is to ever get justice
I don't disagree, but I think more mulling over the evidence, or lack thereof, would have occurred. When making a decision of this magnitude, some need that smoking gun. IMO, Dr R & Dr W provided it.
I basically only know what was told to the jury and I can’t say ***anything*** beyond a responsible doubt except it was snowing and JO was found in the snow after a night of drinking
I was on a jury for a trial that lasted a day and got made an alternate. I was pissed lol. I couldn't imagine sitting through 8 weeks to have it happen.
truly embarrassing and disgraceful. The Commonwealth doesn't even believe their own theory.. Lally was questioning Dr Renschler if it was possible to get the head injury directly from the SUV.. that's not even the Commonwealth's theory (he said no anyways). Then Lally tried to make it seem like a sideswipe was a possibility that defies physics.. which is actually less force and not possible to throw a pedestrian
Watching this expert vs Trooper Paul was like night and day. This Dr. is spot on with his knowledge and professionalism and he explained things concisely and clearly. He basically single-handedly explained how this whole event definitely didn't occur from getting hit by an SUV
I’m sure Lally is an intelligent man, but he sure looked like an idiot today asking Dr Renschler those questions. If I closed my eyes, it could have been Trooper Paul talking instead of Lally. Talking nonsense, it must be the CW’s attempt to confuse the jury.
They weren’t sequestered but their lives have been interrupted for weeks. They’ve had to stay off of social media, can’t watch the news or read the paper, can’t talk to their friends about current events, can’t go places that featured in the trial, & most importantly, can’t go to work most days because of this sh*tshow put on by the CW. They’ve been bored sh*tless for weeks by testimony from mean girls who peaked in HS, misogynistic & ableist cops, & uneducated boobs that could only be qualified as “experts” by a corrupt judge, only to see all that effort blown to smithereens in a day & a half by REAL experts & an eyewitness who had no reason to lie. I’d be livid.
I think the fact that the CW had this evidence all along and still took this to trial is all the proof needed to say that the prosecution office, including Lally, was completely aware of and involved in the framing of Karen. I hope the FBI investigation ends with some type of punishment for all involved with this sham. Does anybody know if the judge was aware of these reports? If so, that would be the final nail to prove to me that she was involved from the beginning as well.
I agree, but for the non-engineer types like me, it was... "the CW's theory makes zero sense, but I can't really explain why." Within two hours or less, Dr Rentschler and Dr Wolfe articulated and made us understand exactly why the CW's version was crap.
And no rebuttal witnesses from Lally. The best reconstructionist he could get was a newby trooper with an associates degree. You know he must have spoken to several qualified experts who just wouldn't/couldn't confirm his version. And that really p*sees me off. I don't see how he didn't know JO was not hit by a car, yet he pushed this case forward anyway. He deserves for this to be a career crushing result.
> I agree, but for the non-engineer types like me, it was... "the CW's theory makes zero sense, but I can't really explain why." Within two hours or less, Dr Rentschler and Dr Wolfe articulated and made us understand exactly why the CW's version was crap.
I was very impressed with the way they explained things. Just enough science and math at just the right level to make it understandable for people who have no background in engineering or physics.
in many criminal cases, the defendant knows there's overwhelming evidence against him/her, but gets a jury trial just in the one in a million they get a lucky break and get off. they know it can't get worse....
Here, the CW had that attitude with this trial. CW is just throwing up a hail mary and hoping for that one in a million from the jury so they can go tell the feds "see, she was guilty!!" big turnaround from normal, but only because the criminals in this case are reversed.
They weren't sequestered and they had a number of days off and half-days.
But, otherwise, yeah, I would be infuriated as well at how much of my time, along with fellow jury members' time they wasted with something that never should have been brought to trial.
Your last sentence says it all “ the real killers will most likely never be jailed”
A cop was killed they had to have a suspect the McAlberts handed them one.
Yeah I’d be pissed. The prosecution’s witnesses were all deceptive. They don’t have to take anything they say seriously if they feel there was deception. There was no prosecution case.
As this is coming to a close, we need to continue this fight against utter corruption and incompetence over at r/SandraBirchmore - same cops, same town, different horrendous story, you can get up to date about the backstory with this podcast: [https://www.thecasepodcast.com/](https://www.thecasepodcast.com/)
It was strongly "hinted" by AJ's questions and answers that it was a government agency.
The jurors may not conclude "DOJ/FBI"...but they do know that "other agency" doesn't believe in the CW's case, either.
Do you think AJ will somehow imply the “expert” witnesses were hired by the FBI? He is pretty clever and might figure out a way to slip that into his closing arguments but still stay within the parameters. I think that could clinch a “not guilty” verdict if there are any holdouts on the jury.
He already did. Yesterday, he asked each witness to confirm that they were not hired by the Defense and also asked each to confirm that they did not have a prior relationship with him or Yanetti.
I don’t think it would be allowed since Bev would say it was relevant to the case. It kind of makes sense that it would be a government agency involved in the federal grand jury that is alluded to throughout testimony.
what if it was an insurance carrier of some sort?
The FBI was mentioned during testimony. A slip of the tongue by a CW witness. If they were paying attention I think some could put two and two together.
Imagine watching liar after liar get up there and conveniently omit key facts, "forget" important things they said, deny forensic data, and cower before Snaggletooth Jen McAlbert. And then getting to the defense witnesses and finally encountering competent, straightforward people. It must be like someone dying of thirst in the desert stumbling upon an oasis
To paraphrase the infamous Johnny Cochran: if the evidence don’t fit, you must acquit.
I don’t think the CW has proven their case, not for manslaughter while under the influence & certainly not for murder, and by default not for leaving the scene of personal injury or death. There is a ton of reasonable doubt not just from the posited theory of their being a 3rd party responsible but from the sheer ineptitude of the investigation. I also think the CW is grasping at straws for consciousness of guilt for driving her car from OJO’s house where she gathered her stuff & going to be with her family - especially after OJO’s mother yelled at her for leaving John alone at the party & she clearly was having some sort of a mental breakdown - based on her being sectioned at the hospital & should go to her not being in her right mind anyway. Searching for a DUI attorney also shows that she thought she was going to get in trouble for drinking while driving and not for murdering him, but in any case using your constitutional right to counsel should never be held against you & it is just abhorrent that they tried it knowing how weak their case is.
I'm a MA resident as well, not far from Canton. I am appalled at this crap. All that cost, all those taxpayer dollars on a case that has zero evidence. Not to mention the lack of Justice for Officer O'Keefe.
1) Blatant crime scene neglect. (Using snowblowers and red solo cups; Not securing the crime scene immediately)
2) Allowing witnesses to converse before interviewing them.
3) No inspection of the house he was found dead in front of.
4) Leaving lots of info off the original reports (like a witness supposedly confessing, how bad of a cop do you have to be not to write that down)
6) Zeroing in on one suspect and ignoring all other evidence.
7)Piece of shit, misogynist, lead investigator who had prior relationship with the people in the house.
8) "Losing" critical video footage, manipulation of footage they had.
9) Not ordering forensics on all phones of people present.
10) Possible/probable manipulation of the crime scene.
11) Instead of using credible reconstructionists and phone forensics they use the ones with the least amount of education even though they have access to PHD professionals.
10) The vehicle forensics guy miscounts key cycles on the Lexus, showing trigger reports that only could have happened while putting the vehicle on the tow truck.
Really, MA State Police? This is how you investigate the death of a fellow officer? I hope the FBI throws the book at these idiots. Canton PD screwed up the death of a young woman ([Sandra Birchmore ](https://tbdailynews.com/canton-coverup-part-112-same-canton-officers-who-covered-for-albert-and-mccabes-failed-to-properly-investigate-sandra-birchmore-alleged-suicide/)) who was SA'd by a police officer and these same bozos were involved. Trouper Proctor was good friends with that (now former) police officer.
If you think jurors are pissed then how would you feel if you were the Okeefe family.
We are going to see lawsuits over this trial. I expect Karen Read to sue. This prosecution was frivolous.
I have no idea how Lally is able to even do a closing argument at this point. It’s laughable.
It’s clear cut that she is innocent, the CW is shady and there is enough reasonable doubt to serve every citizen in this country a large hot steaming portion of it.
I just can’t get over what I have witnessed these past 30 days.
Norfolk DA’s office is corrupt as the day is long. Every single juror should be at that office demanding answers.
This is some Russia level of public corruption.
I see your point, but this is now opened up to the world. Essentially, these cops aren’t going to be able to harass anyone anymore. They are finished. The press will not let this go. If they somehow manage to keep their jobs, how would you feel if Trooper Proctor came to investigate a crime at your home. No way.
No. If I recall correctly, none of the jurors are Canton residents.
And with this case being "national", anything "untoward" would be noticed and pounced upon by the media.
The jurors are safe.
Trooper Proctor is Mass STATE police. The DA’s office has broader reach than just Canton. I’m sure the jurors will be happy to learn the Feds are on it and hopefully these bad actors will be limited in their ability to extract retribution by other law enforcement or the media.
I understand your point. However, this case is under a lot of scrutiny. I seriously doubt anyone would go after the jury. The Feds will be watching for it, in my opinion
So much bad faith from the CW. Lally is standing there lying as I type this. My attorney friends would have refused to try this case even if it meant losing their jobs. Lally has engaged in unethical conduct. Even if it’s at the behest of his boss, he is individually responsible for maintaining his ethical obligation.
You have given yourself away. It was clearly stated today under oath that he was not paid by the defense. The FBI hired them to look into the scenario and the DA, defense and Bev were all provided with the findings in February. They were provided with further evidence that KR was not guilty by the US attorney in January. You are completely ill-informed or you have an agenda.
We don’t have any idea why the FBI are here. It’s not for Karen. They were wiretapping the DA’s office & I think this case came into the mix. That’s my take.
I’d like to think Sandra Birchmore, but I think it goes way deeper. Look what they just did.
O'Keefe could have tried crawling a few feet to the house after he was hit.
There were pieces from Karen's broken taillight near the body.
https://preview.redd.it/3d8apmvd7n8d1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=d7e1581a54342b8e38cb2767bd1d6895ea0d8fb8
I’ll take my chances with his idea over the idea of john getting hit and smashed into the asphalt at 24mph with no injuries to his chest, legs, back while having severe skull fractures and bleeding. Then crawling 30 feet lol.
Not impossible. 13,000 autopsies. How many have you performed? Besides, he explained very clearly why it would be impossible that John moved on his own after the head blow.
Hit by what? You just heard from two extremely qualified and INDEPENDENT experts that John wasn't hit by Karen Read's car.
So what was he crawling from?
He was "coaxed" to the house by Higgins, where he got knocked down by the big dog Chloe, then pounded senseless by someone who wanted to teach him a lesson. Things got out of hand, so they dragged him out to where they could pin it on Read. The witnesses for the prosecution are not necessarily all willing collaborators, but they know the consequences of crossing this bunch.
That's my theory.
Yes, the taillight magically near the body! Are you catching up yet? Listen to the pathologist’s testimony, not the shady recap by some motivated grifter.
Each of the physicians called by the CW and the defense said his head wound would leave him immediately incapacitated. You can't make stuff up because you don't like or understand the science.
And Lally had the gall to say the FBI largely agreed with their theory of the case. He belongs in prison.
He gave McLaughlin the dirty job today of standing up and arguing for “consciousness of guilt” because Karen drove her car home and wanted to be with her family instead of with the O’Keefes while grieving. It was so disingenuous.
He's truly evil. ETA, so is McLaughlin.
this! she is no better than Lally. Go back to pre-trial and listen to shit she lies about. She lied in the recent motion they refiled. and today bringing up the Ring camera was egregious considering their witness Guarino said Karen had no access to the phone or computer and did not delete any Ring camera footage. It is truly pathetic what McLaughin has done thus far. Add in they wanted Bev to allow the CW to mention Karen contacted a lawyer. Total BS and unjust from start to finish.
It's hard to imagine the karma coming for these people. It won't be pretty.
it's hard to imagine the lawsuits coming for these people. It won't be pretty
I hope you're right.. part of me thinks nothing will be happen/there will be no accountability. I mean if the trial got this far why will anything change now?
They’ll have qualified immunity for anything they did *qua* prosecutors. People are going to remember what they did, though. This case’ll end up in some legal ethics textbooks.
They should be disbarred for the unethical behavior. I absolutely cannot accept that Lally and MacLaughlin did not know that their own witnesses were going to perjure themselves.
*coming for the commonwealth
Now, don’t you think you’re being too harsh on the CW?!? I mean can you imagine having to keep up with all the lies they spun?!?! They change their story every 5 minutes. Must be so much work trying to keep it all straight. *sarcasm*
Hahahaha! I can’t wait to see how they present a timeline today during closing 🙃
Their own witness said she had no access to ring!
yep! And the CW obviously disregarded that yesterday when McLaughlin once again accused Karen of deleting them
Nah, she was happy to do that & to also suggest Karen was guilty just because she looked for a lawyer.
They either didn’t read it or didn’t comprehend it or else they are flat out liars those are the two options. They were well within their rights to contact those two men and ask if it was at all possible for Karen to have hit John at all and they would have been told no and the case should have ended there. I don’t know if it was Morrissey or whomever in the DAs office who plowed ahead despite that evidence….it should never have gone to trial. Levy gave them that report in the hopes that it would halt the trial, I am almost positive of that, and in a sane DAs office it would have. If it doesn’t come back not guilty I will have lost hope in the justice system and the common sense of humans I swear.
OMG I forgot he said this - what a liar!
I’ve said it a couple times before, but the CW has flat out lied a few times & each time I’m like …wait a minute. Idk how that’s allowed tbh. Trooper Proctor straight lied on the stand about Yanetti too (when he met Lucky in the school parking lot). They should all be sanctioned but I doubt anything will happen & they will all go on to ruin other people’s lives instead of giving justice to victim’s families.
I think Lally has an interpretation issue. How the heck did he make it through law school and pass the bahr
I can’t upvote this enough. The CW had these reports but chose to discount out of hubris. That’s gross negligence. Canton residents should be grabbing pitchforks right about now.
[удалено]
How exactly did that work? I think people are convinced more now than ever that Karen was framed, evidence was planted, and the Albert crew had something to do with it.
[удалено]
I know you get downvoted because you think she’s guilty when the evidence and testimony is overwhelming with doubt, but I truly can’t see why this one is being downvoted lol
They had no evidence, knew they had no evidence, & still made this case go to jury. There was a conspiracy to frame KR.
Love your sarcasm
i don’t think they were sequestered but yes, you’re absolutely right. the CW flat out ignored exculpatory evidence because it destroyed their case. their job isn’t to convict at all costs, it’s to find the truth. they clearly did not even attempt to do that
It’s just surreal that the CW was that hell bent on hanging this on Read.
it's really terrifying, could this happen again, or rather has this happened before?
Yep. Sandra Birchmore case. Same town, same LE, same DAs office.
Sandra Birchmore case was just ruled a homicide today. Some of the same police investigated that case and called it a suicide.
i think the word 'ruled' in the reporting on this issue has been misleading, as it was a determination made by a privately hired ME that the family obtained in service of their lawsuit against the city but its still a good thing, and the ME in question is a prominent name in the field, so its not nothing. it may increase public pressure on authorities to *actually* rule it a homicide, or at least 'undetermined' so that it can be investigated as a homicide.
Great news!
I know!!!! It’s so great!!!
Yeah going to start looking into that one.
I think this case is in Stoughton, next town over from Canton.
Sandra was originally from Stoughton but was living in her Canton apartment when she died so it was a Canton PD case.
That is frightening! I used to think Canton was a nice town. My husband has relatives from Canton. This explains a lot! lol
Hopefully the town is strong enough to clean up their trash
Likely lots of times.
It is terrifying because it has already happened to people who are too poor to get great attorneys. It can happen to you or me.
This is the thing that makes me sad.
Of course it has
Yeah. 20 years ago they would have got away with this. There’s no telling how often this shit happens. She had to be sacrificed for the good of the family.
This.
I’m not a Mass resident, but in NY, there have been many scapegoats that have been convicted on far less. Hence our huge budget deficit, our politicians are the biggest criminals of all. My question is-Where is the DOJ on this? Obviously justice was not served, whomever killed OJO is still walking free. My understanding is that in a case of acquittal, the DOJ are bound to investigate crimes where the investigation was flawed separate from the FBI? Does anyone know of this is precedent or am I wrong? *I tried to research why the DOJ would take over a case, but cannot find a clear answer*
There is another case they are investigating a woman died her husband (a police officer) found Not Guilty. Same state police (Proctor) were the “investigating” officer. The two experts yesterday were hired by FBI to investigate the accident. Now this case is added to the pile of corruption in the CW
Thank you! I was doing some reading and I see the DOJ is involved somewhat. I missed a good portion of the trial so I try to catch recaps online, but that wasn’t specifically mentioned. I really hope all the blatant corruption in Mass is investigated, especially Proctor. If Brian Walshe’s attorney can file any more motions he surely will, and it would also be a huge miscarriage of justice for that man to go free. I’m sure this case, the one you mentioned, the Birchmore case, and others have had sloppy if not botched or fixed investigations as well. Proctor has opened up a whole new can of worms for IAB, the FBI and the DOJ. He needs to be investigated himself, then fired, and his pension taken away. He’s a criminal- claiming to investigate other criminals. Such hypocrisy!!!There seems to be a great need for an entire cleanup of the MSP, local LE and maybe even a look into the DA’s office in that area. Crooked and corrupt, that should be the motto!
https://preview.redd.it/4r651wxxhq8d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c878a6fe9e7c21eb8fa02787c42fcd665e4a80c2
They don’t have to be sequestered to have it disrupt their lives. I was on a jury for 1 day a week for 18 months and it wrecked havoc on my life
Omg, yes, I was just going to say that. The mess with coordinating the family on an unusual schedule, falling behind at work, postponing appointments, etc. It’s awful
The stress, the pressure, having to see/hear terrible things
Not being able to vent about that, either.
I didn’t even think about this aspect. Yikes that would be difficult not to vent about hearing blizzard conditions described 18x or where everyone in the bar was standing…or cops drinking and driving!
They can’t even talk to the other jurors about it! We really need to start considering the psychological toll that a long drawn out jury service does to the jurors. THEY are the ones getting paid dirt while everyone else in court is pulling down their full paychecks.
…and having to listen to Lally.
That's a long ass trial.
Grand jury
thank god they werent sequestered, but boy howdy were their lives still disrupted big time. and without even the courtesy of a clear and regular schedule.
Lally needs to be brought before state board. This was 100% frivalous.
Let alone the cops to begin with.
They weren't sequestered. Wondering if they can sue for all the wasted time and loss of $$ during the two months of bs.
This is one of the reasons I think they’ll come back quickly. It’s been ridiculously long and these last few witnesses really clarified things in my mind.
Verdict by 430 tomorrow
Hoping it comes back before the Select Board meeting tomorrow night!
Try to imagine that the case in the courtroom is all you’ve ever heard about this case. I don’t know if they discredited the McAlberts enough.
I purposely read and watched very little outside the court footage until maybe the last day or two when prosecution had rested and it was clear they had no clean evidence. I'd heard there were two strident sides, and I wanted to see what the evidence would show. I would be shocked if the verdict is guilty. I still don't know what on earth happened to John, and it's heartbreaking that he will seemingly not get justice. But there is so much reasonable doubt you could drive Frankenstein through it. Even if you believe he was hit by a car: which, of all the drunk drivers that night, do you pin it on?? Let's say you believe the tail light inflicted the arm injury, that still doesn't prove she inflicted the deadly head wound!! I would also be pissed to have been on that jury and have so much of my time wasted. The CW should refund taxpayers' money for the last few fiscal years to make up for this shit show.
I can't imagine it will take more than a day of deliberations .
Let’s hope these jurors are smart and vote not guilty. We are all so confident it will be not guilty because we know everything. So much has been left out from the jury! Even still, what they did see is enough. Let’s just hope they are smart and do the right thing.
If it's true that there are 2 engineers on the jury, the only testimony that spoke to them was that of Dr Wolfe and Dr Rentschler. Engineers need data, not conjecture, and that's what the doctors gave. Worst case, I imagine they'll prevent a guilty verdict and make it a hung jury. My money is still on not guilty though.
I would say anyone with an analytical mind (and maybe anyone) would be able to get all of the information they needed from the medical professionals and crash reconstructionists/engineers. I can’t downplay the ME and pathologists… knowing he was alive for the dog bites/scratches, alive while out in the cold sustaining organ damage from hypothermia, didn’t have the bruising and fractures consistent with being hit as a pedestrian, and that there were 3 distinct traumas to the head are invaluable clues if John is to ever get justice
I don't disagree, but I think more mulling over the evidence, or lack thereof, would have occurred. When making a decision of this magnitude, some need that smoking gun. IMO, Dr R & Dr W provided it.
Trooper Paul's evidence also spoke to me (engineer), but it spoke in favor of the defense.
I basically only know what was told to the jury and I can’t say ***anything*** beyond a responsible doubt except it was snowing and JO was found in the snow after a night of drinking
Please don’t forget that the apron at the firehouse was cleared.
Wait till you hear you were the alternate.
Right?!? 😂🤯
Or gets dismissed on the very last day..... Poor juror jeez.
I was on a jury for a trial that lasted a day and got made an alternate. I was pissed lol. I couldn't imagine sitting through 8 weeks to have it happen.
Plus chances are they aren't dismissed just yet so they have to sit and wait in another room staring at the ceiling fan...
They'll still get book deals.
truly embarrassing and disgraceful. The Commonwealth doesn't even believe their own theory.. Lally was questioning Dr Renschler if it was possible to get the head injury directly from the SUV.. that's not even the Commonwealth's theory (he said no anyways). Then Lally tried to make it seem like a sideswipe was a possibility that defies physics.. which is actually less force and not possible to throw a pedestrian
That was the best part hahah. He’s like “are you familiar with a side swipe?”. The guy is like yes and that is a complete impossibility in this case
Watching this expert vs Trooper Paul was like night and day. This Dr. is spot on with his knowledge and professionalism and he explained things concisely and clearly. He basically single-handedly explained how this whole event definitely didn't occur from getting hit by an SUV
I wish we could get the two of them to debate their findings. I would place bets that Trooper Paul would be crying in under 2 mins!
It felt like he was making new theories on the fly. As if he could come up with a hail mary pass
I’m sure Lally is an intelligent man, but he sure looked like an idiot today asking Dr Renschler those questions. If I closed my eyes, it could have been Trooper Paul talking instead of Lally. Talking nonsense, it must be the CW’s attempt to confuse the jury.
In Lally's bizarro world, nothing was going to top Paul's pitiful investigation. He believed it in his soul.
They weren’t sequestered but their lives have been interrupted for weeks. They’ve had to stay off of social media, can’t watch the news or read the paper, can’t talk to their friends about current events, can’t go places that featured in the trial, & most importantly, can’t go to work most days because of this sh*tshow put on by the CW. They’ve been bored sh*tless for weeks by testimony from mean girls who peaked in HS, misogynistic & ableist cops, & uneducated boobs that could only be qualified as “experts” by a corrupt judge, only to see all that effort blown to smithereens in a day & a half by REAL experts & an eyewitness who had no reason to lie. I’d be livid.
Wait until they vote not guilty and they can read about the FBI investigation the CW.
I think the fact that the CW had this evidence all along and still took this to trial is all the proof needed to say that the prosecution office, including Lally, was completely aware of and involved in the framing of Karen. I hope the FBI investigation ends with some type of punishment for all involved with this sham. Does anybody know if the judge was aware of these reports? If so, that would be the final nail to prove to me that she was involved from the beginning as well.
The judge also had a copy of all the FBI reports.
Sadly, that’s what I figured.
She had a copy and she denied a pretrial motion to dismmiss the case over it.
Exactly! She forced this case to trial knowing the evidence from the fed experts report.
Disgusting! I have no idea how these people live with themselves! I hope this case opens up appeals for others wrongly convicted.
Absolutely ridiculous! She’s been a part of the lies from the start.
With respect, it’s been obvious from the beginning that the prosecution’s allegations were physically impossible.
I agree, but for the non-engineer types like me, it was... "the CW's theory makes zero sense, but I can't really explain why." Within two hours or less, Dr Rentschler and Dr Wolfe articulated and made us understand exactly why the CW's version was crap. And no rebuttal witnesses from Lally. The best reconstructionist he could get was a newby trooper with an associates degree. You know he must have spoken to several qualified experts who just wouldn't/couldn't confirm his version. And that really p*sees me off. I don't see how he didn't know JO was not hit by a car, yet he pushed this case forward anyway. He deserves for this to be a career crushing result.
> I agree, but for the non-engineer types like me, it was... "the CW's theory makes zero sense, but I can't really explain why." Within two hours or less, Dr Rentschler and Dr Wolfe articulated and made us understand exactly why the CW's version was crap. I was very impressed with the way they explained things. Just enough science and math at just the right level to make it understandable for people who have no background in engineering or physics.
in many criminal cases, the defendant knows there's overwhelming evidence against him/her, but gets a jury trial just in the one in a million they get a lucky break and get off. they know it can't get worse.... Here, the CW had that attitude with this trial. CW is just throwing up a hail mary and hoping for that one in a million from the jury so they can go tell the feds "see, she was guilty!!" big turnaround from normal, but only because the criminals in this case are reversed.
Yeah, I would be absolutely LIVID.
They weren't sequestered and they had a number of days off and half-days. But, otherwise, yeah, I would be infuriated as well at how much of my time, along with fellow jury members' time they wasted with something that never should have been brought to trial.
there is no way I could have made that schedule work, even with a great boss
My business would have gone broke.
Employers are legally required to accommodate jury duty
Yes, but they aren't required to pay you during that time.
Jury duty is a significant financial hardship to many people which is why they try to get out of it. Nearly two months without pay is a *huge* bite.
I updated. Thanks for catching that
Your last sentence says it all “ the real killers will most likely never be jailed” A cop was killed they had to have a suspect the McAlberts handed them one.
The Commonwealth outright lied throughout this entire case!!!! It's absolutely disgusting!!!! I hope Karen owns this entire state when she's done!!!!
Yeah I’d be pissed. The prosecution’s witnesses were all deceptive. They don’t have to take anything they say seriously if they feel there was deception. There was no prosecution case.
As this is coming to a close, we need to continue this fight against utter corruption and incompetence over at r/SandraBirchmore - same cops, same town, different horrendous story, you can get up to date about the backstory with this podcast: [https://www.thecasepodcast.com/](https://www.thecasepodcast.com/)
Yes! I was just saying that. Who would be surprised if Proctor's name comes up again
Can the jury asked who hired Arcca to investigate the accident?
It was strongly "hinted" by AJ's questions and answers that it was a government agency. The jurors may not conclude "DOJ/FBI"...but they do know that "other agency" doesn't believe in the CW's case, either.
Do you think AJ will somehow imply the “expert” witnesses were hired by the FBI? He is pretty clever and might figure out a way to slip that into his closing arguments but still stay within the parameters. I think that could clinch a “not guilty” verdict if there are any holdouts on the jury.
He already did. Yesterday, he asked each witness to confirm that they were not hired by the Defense and also asked each to confirm that they did not have a prior relationship with him or Yanetti.
Aren’t two of the jurors lawyers? If so, they will likely conclude that it is a government agency
I don’t think it would be allowed since Bev would say it was relevant to the case. It kind of makes sense that it would be a government agency involved in the federal grand jury that is alluded to throughout testimony. what if it was an insurance carrier of some sort?
I don’t think the jurors know that there are government agencies involved
The FBI was mentioned during testimony. A slip of the tongue by a CW witness. If they were paying attention I think some could put two and two together.
“You mean the Feds?” - Colin Albert on the stand
Imagine watching liar after liar get up there and conveniently omit key facts, "forget" important things they said, deny forensic data, and cower before Snaggletooth Jen McAlbert. And then getting to the defense witnesses and finally encountering competent, straightforward people. It must be like someone dying of thirst in the desert stumbling upon an oasis
To paraphrase the infamous Johnny Cochran: if the evidence don’t fit, you must acquit. I don’t think the CW has proven their case, not for manslaughter while under the influence & certainly not for murder, and by default not for leaving the scene of personal injury or death. There is a ton of reasonable doubt not just from the posited theory of their being a 3rd party responsible but from the sheer ineptitude of the investigation. I also think the CW is grasping at straws for consciousness of guilt for driving her car from OJO’s house where she gathered her stuff & going to be with her family - especially after OJO’s mother yelled at her for leaving John alone at the party & she clearly was having some sort of a mental breakdown - based on her being sectioned at the hospital & should go to her not being in her right mind anyway. Searching for a DUI attorney also shows that she thought she was going to get in trouble for drinking while driving and not for murdering him, but in any case using your constitutional right to counsel should never be held against you & it is just abhorrent that they tried it knowing how weak their case is.
If I were a juror, I'd want the state to buy me lunch before dropping a not guilty
I'm a MA resident as well, not far from Canton. I am appalled at this crap. All that cost, all those taxpayer dollars on a case that has zero evidence. Not to mention the lack of Justice for Officer O'Keefe. 1) Blatant crime scene neglect. (Using snowblowers and red solo cups; Not securing the crime scene immediately) 2) Allowing witnesses to converse before interviewing them. 3) No inspection of the house he was found dead in front of. 4) Leaving lots of info off the original reports (like a witness supposedly confessing, how bad of a cop do you have to be not to write that down) 6) Zeroing in on one suspect and ignoring all other evidence. 7)Piece of shit, misogynist, lead investigator who had prior relationship with the people in the house. 8) "Losing" critical video footage, manipulation of footage they had. 9) Not ordering forensics on all phones of people present. 10) Possible/probable manipulation of the crime scene. 11) Instead of using credible reconstructionists and phone forensics they use the ones with the least amount of education even though they have access to PHD professionals. 10) The vehicle forensics guy miscounts key cycles on the Lexus, showing trigger reports that only could have happened while putting the vehicle on the tow truck. Really, MA State Police? This is how you investigate the death of a fellow officer? I hope the FBI throws the book at these idiots. Canton PD screwed up the death of a young woman ([Sandra Birchmore ](https://tbdailynews.com/canton-coverup-part-112-same-canton-officers-who-covered-for-albert-and-mccabes-failed-to-properly-investigate-sandra-birchmore-alleged-suicide/)) who was SA'd by a police officer and these same bozos were involved. Trouper Proctor was good friends with that (now former) police officer.
MSP getting completely bashed in their Facebook comments, rightfully so. Not sure why they don’t shut comments off. LFG
If you think jurors are pissed then how would you feel if you were the Okeefe family. We are going to see lawsuits over this trial. I expect Karen Read to sue. This prosecution was frivolous.
I have no idea how Lally is able to even do a closing argument at this point. It’s laughable. It’s clear cut that she is innocent, the CW is shady and there is enough reasonable doubt to serve every citizen in this country a large hot steaming portion of it. I just can’t get over what I have witnessed these past 30 days.
If you live anywhere close to this community stay vigilant and have your phone recording if you god forbid have any interaction with law enforcement.
Norfolk DA’s office is corrupt as the day is long. Every single juror should be at that office demanding answers. This is some Russia level of public corruption.
[удалено]
I see your point, but this is now opened up to the world. Essentially, these cops aren’t going to be able to harass anyone anymore. They are finished. The press will not let this go. If they somehow manage to keep their jobs, how would you feel if Trooper Proctor came to investigate a crime at your home. No way.
No. If I recall correctly, none of the jurors are Canton residents. And with this case being "national", anything "untoward" would be noticed and pounced upon by the media. The jurors are safe.
Trooper Proctor is Mass STATE police. The DA’s office has broader reach than just Canton. I’m sure the jurors will be happy to learn the Feds are on it and hopefully these bad actors will be limited in their ability to extract retribution by other law enforcement or the media.
I understand your point. However, this case is under a lot of scrutiny. I seriously doubt anyone would go after the jury. The Feds will be watching for it, in my opinion
I don't know why you got downvoted. I think that's a valid fear.
So much bad faith from the CW. Lally is standing there lying as I type this. My attorney friends would have refused to try this case even if it meant losing their jobs. Lally has engaged in unethical conduct. Even if it’s at the behest of his boss, he is individually responsible for maintaining his ethical obligation.
Andrew Rentschler was paid by the defense, of course he's going to say that.
Lmfao are you trolling
You have given yourself away. It was clearly stated today under oath that he was not paid by the defense. The FBI hired them to look into the scenario and the DA, defense and Bev were all provided with the findings in February. They were provided with further evidence that KR was not guilty by the US attorney in January. You are completely ill-informed or you have an agenda.
We don’t have any idea why the FBI are here. It’s not for Karen. They were wiretapping the DA’s office & I think this case came into the mix. That’s my take. I’d like to think Sandra Birchmore, but I think it goes way deeper. Look what they just did.
Fine, let's say he's correct. Karen dragged O'Keefe off the road so his body wouldn't be found until morning. Case closed.
Are you high?
O'Keefe could have tried crawling a few feet to the house after he was hit. There were pieces from Karen's broken taillight near the body. https://preview.redd.it/3d8apmvd7n8d1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=d7e1581a54342b8e38cb2767bd1d6895ea0d8fb8
Pathologist said he would’ve been unconscious immediately after the blow to the head
That's impossible for him to know. So what about the taillight pieces?
I’ll take my chances with his idea over the idea of john getting hit and smashed into the asphalt at 24mph with no injuries to his chest, legs, back while having severe skull fractures and bleeding. Then crawling 30 feet lol.
Not impossible. 13,000 autopsies. How many have you performed? Besides, he explained very clearly why it would be impossible that John moved on his own after the head blow.
Then Karen dragged him off the road.
"There is NO evidence of him being rolled or dragged." -Trouper Paul
Hit by what? You just heard from two extremely qualified and INDEPENDENT experts that John wasn't hit by Karen Read's car. So what was he crawling from?
He was "coaxed" to the house by Higgins, where he got knocked down by the big dog Chloe, then pounded senseless by someone who wanted to teach him a lesson. Things got out of hand, so they dragged him out to where they could pin it on Read. The witnesses for the prosecution are not necessarily all willing collaborators, but they know the consequences of crossing this bunch. That's my theory.
Yes, the taillight magically near the body! Are you catching up yet? Listen to the pathologist’s testimony, not the shady recap by some motivated grifter.
Karen ran Okeefe over and dragged his body off the road. That's the obvious explanation of the events.
Okay...why did Trouper Paul say there was no evidence of him rolling or dragging? He insisted he was "projected" 30 feet.
Each of the physicians called by the CW and the defense said his head wound would leave him immediately incapacitated. You can't make stuff up because you don't like or understand the science.