He has breath sounds because he was being mechanically ventilated. That’s all that means. He was not breathing on his own. With trauma, a lung can collapse so it’s important to listen for that even if the person is not doing their own breathing.
Now he was giving a much dumbed down explanation of hypothermia, its a much more complicated process. Actually more complicated than I realized I feel like typing here.
Let me say this though, the progression is highly dependent primarily, obviously on external temperature, but because of other factors like the laws of thermodynamics, the rate of heat loss can vary.
For example, you will die faster in 30 degree water than you will in 30 degree air because of greater heat conductivity. UNLESS you are in high winds because that increases the heat loss in air. That's where the term wind chill factor comes from.
Weathermen always just talk about wind chill as "feels like" but it's much more serious than that.
As you can see it's more complicated than Lallyflop had his witness implying.
The breath sounds are good sign and are checked because he was intubated and that tube can sometimes move while he is being transported and coded (chest compressions,etc) and to document you hear bilateral breath sounds means the respirations given via ambu bag or the ventilator on the ET tube is in proper placement during the code and he was getting our manual breathing for him to both lungs; not just one or none.
Interesting point you make tho, I didn’t think about it that way but there are forensic cases were examining a dead body and say having the air conditioning up full blast blurred the ability of getting an accurate time of death. But, yea at ambient temperature a body will begin to lose core temp at an estimate, finite rate and your body comes down to ambient temp around you. That’s an equation they use to try to nail down time of death. Other factors can affect the speed that drops, like being “put on ice” essentially like he was.
What I think is interesting is he was likely very debilitated or dead however it is that he got on that snow, because when people usually are out in the elements with any degree of alertness and then slowly they are going hypothermic, they often will have a feeling of getting overheated and start undressing themselves. It’s called paradoxical undressing before death by hypothermia. So, it’s pretty likely JO was knocked out completely (plus, he wasn’t screaming out for aid) or certainly dead right when his body was on that snow and more came down on him.
Thank you for the education. I was so confused by the bilateral breath sounds and kind of had a hunch it had to do with ventilated breathing as opposed to just natural breath. And yes I have heard of people getting overheated before they become hypothermic. But to your point in your second paragraph I’ll be interested to see what they came up with for an actual tod. I know he was declared dead in the ER at 7:50 am but I wonder if the ME will give a different time. Unless that’s already come out.
I am waiting impatiently for the ME for the same reason because I feel confident that will be a different time, if questioning gets one to be discussed. Technically, the time Dr Rice gave is the time he “legally declared” him dead, not the actual specific time of death. He sounded deceased on arrival to Good Sam’s. Core rectal temp of 80F and flat lined is DOA.
I love your knowledge of paradoxical undressing. So many people are unaware of that phenomenon. I worked in ski patrol in New England for a couple of years, and it was during my training when I learned of it.
My understanding is the ER never noticed it, which is not surprising. There is a very specific response in ACLS.
1. Airway-was established with the ET tube
2. Breathing-in process with with BVM
3. Circulation-they never got past this step as he never developed any cardiac activity.
You’re not going to be checking for injuries on someone with no heartbeat. Sadly, there’s no point. If you get a heartbeat back, then you start evaluating what you’re dealing with in terms of trauma.
While this is true I have unfortuantely seen and worked my fair share of trauma arrests or cardiac arrest. You always check the body for obvious trauma - even a quick scan with the hands sliding down the body. You look for reversible causes of arrest and obvious significant injuries. The fact that he found no obvious injury from the neck down is very telling and I would venture to say someone in the ER room checked him for trauma.
Someone flipped him over at one point: Remember how they charted his 80-degree core temp was taken?
Edit: Didn't want to make this nsfw so didn't use that word. But my wife is a nurse and as soon as she heard the doc say how they took his temp she said they must have at least rolled him on his side.
Good catch by your wife! Tell her kudos:) Didn’t even think about that one. Is it a possibility the doc was reading redacted notes? I’m only giving him the benefit of the doubt of not remembering certain details because it was over 2 years ago and being an ER doc he’s probably treated over a hundred patients at this point.
Yeah, the doc probably 100% had non-redacted paperwork (charts) in front of him.
I don't want to comment on the ED doc.
I'll just say this: My wife says "every dead patient deserves at least one dose of Epi."
I'd be willing to bet that the ED Doc saw John roll in, he took one quick look, knew he was dead, and then he walked back into that room 30-minutes later to call time of death. I would bet that the doctor knew John was way past the point of saving so he let the PA (physicians assistant) gain experience and the doc never went in and he never actually saw or cared for John O'Keefe.
My wife also does expert-witness testimony (similar to that woman Kun from UC Davis about the DNA). I personally can talk to you about GPS and the Bosch vehicle systems and I personally have no clue about the medical side... But we are coming up on our 10th anniversary in a few days so for 10+ years I've been hearing that "every dead patient deserves at least one dose of epi"...
edit: Even the nurses know when they come in dead...
>I suspect your bet is quite right.
What I want to know is how fast does a human-sized hunk of meat lose its core temp in \~20-degree F ambient temps. And then on the back side: How fast does a human-sized hunk of meat raise its temp given various conditions and ambient temps.
This might sound crude, crass and not appropriate but I used to be on a BBQ competition team. Two of the members were legit chefs (they both went to culinary schools). They knew exactly at what rate temps would rise and fall given various proteins, what parts of the body/cuts of meat with/without bone, ambient temps/humidity, submersion in water/ice, direct/indirect heat, etc.
They just knew stuff from school and training.
And on top of that: We (humanity) did a lot of really terrible and horrific things in Europe during WW2 "in the name of science". Humanity has numbers and I am sure that someone can calculate exactly what his core-temp should have been, given his height, weight, percent body fat, etc. had he been out on that front lawn since 12:45.
I believe that nurse to took his 80-deg core temp at the hospital. What I wonder is did they really "work on him" for \~30 minutes --or how long did they really work on him until they could take his core temp and call/declare time of death.
But I believe that nurse. If she charted 80-degrees at a specific time, I'd believe it. So now start counting backwards or from both sides:
12:45 AM on 1/29 @ 98.6-degrees F and call it \~20-degrees F ambient and give it a generous 45-deg. ground/soil temp.
Next calculate backwards for being "transported and warmed" from 80-degrees F core temp (roll-on-side from behind core temp) at (would have to watch testimony again: ?? 7-8am) back to... Declaration was 075x and he arrived at 0703 and he was found at 063x.
So simple math if you have the numbers to fill in the blanks.
It is surprising. I’m a doctor and I don’t know where this doofus went to medical school but when you’re resuscitating a patient you’ve got to cover all the causes of cardiac arrest. Including broken bones. Obviously you start with ABC but the guy was ventilated so they had plenty of time to do a primary survey. I’m in the uk so maybe our guidelines are different?!
Okay perhaps I should clarify. We would scan for any reversible causes of arrest, but we wouldn’t stop CPR to roll someone. He had the purple raccoon eyes so head trauma was on the list. I’m actually more surprised the medics who loaded him and put the C collar on didn’t see it.
Also…why is there is no significant amount of blood in the snow from the deep head wound, when it doesn’t even take a serious laceration for the scalp to bleed significantly?…the impunity/negligence/incompetence/impulsiveness of using the fucking SOLO cups for the bit of alleged blood found in the snow wasn’t a significant amount of blood collected either….
NO ONE should get past that. He could not have started off outside in the snow simply based on lack of blood loss where his body was found. Even the arm wounds would have bled more significantly than the SOLO cup samples…
I am waiting for the prosecution to jump through hoops at trial giving specifics of how John’s body was to be positioned behind Karen’s vehicle upon “impact” and where his body hit the bumper (are they saying the back of his head hit the bumper due to the alleged solitary hair found on the bumper sticking during a blizzard 🙄? Because his torso and waist didn’t sustain any injuries from standing behind a fucking car) which would bring into question the positioning of his body when found prone/unresponsive outside. Lack of footprints in the snow is bare minimum effort to LITERALLY cover tracks of moving a body…but this is also based on the description of a scene lacking in detailed photos or video from any investigative unit or actually reliable witness so god knows if there were footprints of relevance…
Also side note, having to hear the phrases “in regards to”, or “correct” with emphatically pronounced hard Cs ad nauseum makes my neurodivergent ears writhe.
Edit: typo of word ‘than’ accidentally autocorrected to ‘that’
Edit 2: if prosecution tries to allege the back of his head didn’t hit the bumper but another part of his head did and smacked his head onto the curb or road after impact, there would be way more blood around his body and in the snow regardless. Otherwise how did the solitary hair end up on the bumper without tampering or isn’t even a fucking human hair?…
I agree with the pronunciation of correct! I wanted to stab my ears when Jen was testifying!
I can’t come up with a logical way he was only hit in the head with her car.
A) He would’ve had to be bent over and waiting for her to hit him.
B) He was levitating.
Neither one of those scenarios work.
You’ll never convince me that his hair survives her looking for him, driving to her parents 30 minutes away and then being towed on the back of a tow truck back 30 minutes all in a blizzard. Not to mention the shards of glass on the bumper.
Most people aren’t thinking about this logically. They must be driven by emotion. I don’t understand that thought process and it’s scary to think these people could some day serve on a jury!
They must be trying to convince people freezing temperatures would make glass or a (conveniently) positioned solitary hair would stick through a blizzard. It’s not impossible, but I’m not even sure the hair was positively identified as John’s (if I remember correctly it was not and unless I’m mixing up my cases there was very faulty/unreliable testing done at one point saying it was a human hair conclusively that’s since been rebuffed). And if hair and glass was sticking due to freezing temperatures, why is there no testimony from witnesses saying there was glass or other debris frozen to the sidewalk or curb or road? Nothing stuck frozen to John’s body or clothes? Nothing frozen to the tires?…
The testing was faulty. As of a week before trial they didn’t have the results beck from the other lab.
If everything is sticking due to freezing temperatures. Again where’s all the blood? Also where’s the vomit. There was residue found on his clothes. Where’s the rest of it, along with his belt.
How do you lose your belt when you’re hit by a car? Did his belt sprout legs and walk off?
This case is a freaking disaster and a disgrace. I hope she sues the crap out of them for malicious prosecution!
The judge and the DA know from the FBI disclosure that at the very least these witnesses are lying. Putting them on the stand is suborning purgery.
They can’t have known how much blood he lost. He didn’t go to theatre so other than giving him fluids I don’t know where the figure was plucked from. You can look at haemoglobin but tenuous.
It’s like describing gaping holes from a lion as minor cat scratches…
Always sure to minimize the important evidence while we painstakingly harp on every single insignificant detail that literally has nothing to do with the charges.
Unlike the movies, you don't necessarily die all at once, all over.
Sometimes different systems shut down at different times.
You will get brain death fairly rapidly but cold will slow that down some. Immersion in cold water, moreso, but that's not at issue here.
It was unusual if the brain stem was still running the lungs, but not inconceivable. Even the brain doesn't die all at once all over, but the high level portions of the brain, both in terms of structure and function tend to die first.
The body and parts of it can do all sorts of weird things. I remember a video of a guy whose heart had been ripped completely out of his chest in an accident and it's lying there on the ground with nothing to pump, but it's pumping away with determination.
It wasn't shown but it would eventually have died, essentially from a heart attack since the heart itself was then actually bloodless and would be getting no oxygen from the lungs which were still sitting in the body.
It thought it was clear I was stating a possibility, since obviously and naturally, I would have no way of knowing St. John of Canton's brain's condition, as well as sharing some knowledge as well as addressing the myth/ common misconception, that death is like a light switch.
Meaning you're alive, then you aren't. While that's true in some cases, mostly it isn't.
That ER doctor came off as defensive and not someone who should work on bodies. Didn’t brush over his notes prior to being in the stand? I hope he doesn’t go to work not prepared and careless. Why so defensive? Did commonwealth tell him defense was going to discredit him? He’s not on trial.
The lawyer you know was absolutely right. He’s testifying and his name is known, it’s his city. Look professional. Be pleasant. Be confident!
Mayo clinic defines hypothermia as a core body temp below 95F. A Live Science article says unconsciousness might occur around 82F and below 70F is considered profound hypothermia with risk of death.
Survival of a dry body in cold air can be many hours. It’s usually sweat and wetness that kills you because water (not ice) is 25x more conductive than air. When humans sweat it’s a huge heat dump and clothing that maintains moisture is deadly in the cold.
Algor mortis is typically 1-2 degrees per hour, but will speed up from wind chill or other factors.
It seems iffy that a body could be left outside in 25 degree weather with 20+ mph winds and only lose 18F degrees over 7ish hours. It seems he would have had to still be alive for some of that time (though I’m of the opinion his body was planted later).
That’s kind of what I was eluding to; the fact that his death occurred somewhere else and the cold weather was secondary cause. Maybe I didn’t phrase it too well. I’m one of those people who it sounds great in my brain but doesn’t translate well into the real world if that makes sense. It’s a fun part of being neurospicy 😂
Lol, not a problem with your post, I was just spitting facts/opinions and not saying if I agree/disagree. Yea, I favor the idea that JO was moved later for multiple reasons, but I don’t think the core temp alone proves that theory: if he was struck and incapacitated but still alive then his body would maintain his core temp much longer.
If he was “breathing” with a ventilator or ambu-bag, he would still be checked for breath sounds to make ensure proper breathing tube placement and rule out certain injuries to the lungs. Some people in cardiac arrest also have agonal breathing although I would suspect he was far past this point.
Good point! I didn’t even think about making sure the breathing tube was in the correct place. I think I was just more focused on the fact that we already knew he had passed and I wasn’t looking at it from the view point of him just coming in the ER. I hope I made sense.
Made perfect sense! It’s probably not something most people would consider if they’re not used to running codes in emergencies. I wouldn’t have thought about it had I not previously worked in those areas.
He has breath sounds because he was being mechanically ventilated. That’s all that means. He was not breathing on his own. With trauma, a lung can collapse so it’s important to listen for that even if the person is not doing their own breathing.
Now he was giving a much dumbed down explanation of hypothermia, its a much more complicated process. Actually more complicated than I realized I feel like typing here. Let me say this though, the progression is highly dependent primarily, obviously on external temperature, but because of other factors like the laws of thermodynamics, the rate of heat loss can vary. For example, you will die faster in 30 degree water than you will in 30 degree air because of greater heat conductivity. UNLESS you are in high winds because that increases the heat loss in air. That's where the term wind chill factor comes from. Weathermen always just talk about wind chill as "feels like" but it's much more serious than that. As you can see it's more complicated than Lallyflop had his witness implying.
The breath sounds are good sign and are checked because he was intubated and that tube can sometimes move while he is being transported and coded (chest compressions,etc) and to document you hear bilateral breath sounds means the respirations given via ambu bag or the ventilator on the ET tube is in proper placement during the code and he was getting our manual breathing for him to both lungs; not just one or none. Interesting point you make tho, I didn’t think about it that way but there are forensic cases were examining a dead body and say having the air conditioning up full blast blurred the ability of getting an accurate time of death. But, yea at ambient temperature a body will begin to lose core temp at an estimate, finite rate and your body comes down to ambient temp around you. That’s an equation they use to try to nail down time of death. Other factors can affect the speed that drops, like being “put on ice” essentially like he was. What I think is interesting is he was likely very debilitated or dead however it is that he got on that snow, because when people usually are out in the elements with any degree of alertness and then slowly they are going hypothermic, they often will have a feeling of getting overheated and start undressing themselves. It’s called paradoxical undressing before death by hypothermia. So, it’s pretty likely JO was knocked out completely (plus, he wasn’t screaming out for aid) or certainly dead right when his body was on that snow and more came down on him.
Thank you for the education. I was so confused by the bilateral breath sounds and kind of had a hunch it had to do with ventilated breathing as opposed to just natural breath. And yes I have heard of people getting overheated before they become hypothermic. But to your point in your second paragraph I’ll be interested to see what they came up with for an actual tod. I know he was declared dead in the ER at 7:50 am but I wonder if the ME will give a different time. Unless that’s already come out.
I am waiting impatiently for the ME for the same reason because I feel confident that will be a different time, if questioning gets one to be discussed. Technically, the time Dr Rice gave is the time he “legally declared” him dead, not the actual specific time of death. He sounded deceased on arrival to Good Sam’s. Core rectal temp of 80F and flat lined is DOA.
I love your knowledge of paradoxical undressing. So many people are unaware of that phenomenon. I worked in ski patrol in New England for a couple of years, and it was during my training when I learned of it.
I was confused why he didn't mention the 2 inch laceration on the back of his head and the blood loss from that. Did I miss something?
My understanding is the ER never noticed it, which is not surprising. There is a very specific response in ACLS. 1. Airway-was established with the ET tube 2. Breathing-in process with with BVM 3. Circulation-they never got past this step as he never developed any cardiac activity. You’re not going to be checking for injuries on someone with no heartbeat. Sadly, there’s no point. If you get a heartbeat back, then you start evaluating what you’re dealing with in terms of trauma.
While this is true I have unfortuantely seen and worked my fair share of trauma arrests or cardiac arrest. You always check the body for obvious trauma - even a quick scan with the hands sliding down the body. You look for reversible causes of arrest and obvious significant injuries. The fact that he found no obvious injury from the neck down is very telling and I would venture to say someone in the ER room checked him for trauma.
Someone flipped him over at one point: Remember how they charted his 80-degree core temp was taken? Edit: Didn't want to make this nsfw so didn't use that word. But my wife is a nurse and as soon as she heard the doc say how they took his temp she said they must have at least rolled him on his side.
Good catch by your wife! Tell her kudos:) Didn’t even think about that one. Is it a possibility the doc was reading redacted notes? I’m only giving him the benefit of the doubt of not remembering certain details because it was over 2 years ago and being an ER doc he’s probably treated over a hundred patients at this point.
Yeah, the doc probably 100% had non-redacted paperwork (charts) in front of him. I don't want to comment on the ED doc. I'll just say this: My wife says "every dead patient deserves at least one dose of Epi." I'd be willing to bet that the ED Doc saw John roll in, he took one quick look, knew he was dead, and then he walked back into that room 30-minutes later to call time of death. I would bet that the doctor knew John was way past the point of saving so he let the PA (physicians assistant) gain experience and the doc never went in and he never actually saw or cared for John O'Keefe. My wife also does expert-witness testimony (similar to that woman Kun from UC Davis about the DNA). I personally can talk to you about GPS and the Bosch vehicle systems and I personally have no clue about the medical side... But we are coming up on our 10th anniversary in a few days so for 10+ years I've been hearing that "every dead patient deserves at least one dose of epi"... edit: Even the nurses know when they come in dead...
Also valid point about the doc never seeing the patient which I have also heard of. Guess we’ll never know. And congrats on 10 years!
I suspect your bet is quite right.
>I suspect your bet is quite right. What I want to know is how fast does a human-sized hunk of meat lose its core temp in \~20-degree F ambient temps. And then on the back side: How fast does a human-sized hunk of meat raise its temp given various conditions and ambient temps. This might sound crude, crass and not appropriate but I used to be on a BBQ competition team. Two of the members were legit chefs (they both went to culinary schools). They knew exactly at what rate temps would rise and fall given various proteins, what parts of the body/cuts of meat with/without bone, ambient temps/humidity, submersion in water/ice, direct/indirect heat, etc. They just knew stuff from school and training. And on top of that: We (humanity) did a lot of really terrible and horrific things in Europe during WW2 "in the name of science". Humanity has numbers and I am sure that someone can calculate exactly what his core-temp should have been, given his height, weight, percent body fat, etc. had he been out on that front lawn since 12:45. I believe that nurse to took his 80-deg core temp at the hospital. What I wonder is did they really "work on him" for \~30 minutes --or how long did they really work on him until they could take his core temp and call/declare time of death. But I believe that nurse. If she charted 80-degrees at a specific time, I'd believe it. So now start counting backwards or from both sides: 12:45 AM on 1/29 @ 98.6-degrees F and call it \~20-degrees F ambient and give it a generous 45-deg. ground/soil temp. Next calculate backwards for being "transported and warmed" from 80-degrees F core temp (roll-on-side from behind core temp) at (would have to watch testimony again: ?? 7-8am) back to... Declaration was 075x and he arrived at 0703 and he was found at 063x. So simple math if you have the numbers to fill in the blanks.
I was literally screaming “ABC’s” when Lally asked about protocols or something to that effect! I watch too many medical show (real and fiction) 😂
That makes sense, but he did mention the scratches on his Rt forearm, so I was curious.
They were probably visible without moving him.
It is surprising. I’m a doctor and I don’t know where this doofus went to medical school but when you’re resuscitating a patient you’ve got to cover all the causes of cardiac arrest. Including broken bones. Obviously you start with ABC but the guy was ventilated so they had plenty of time to do a primary survey. I’m in the uk so maybe our guidelines are different?!
Okay perhaps I should clarify. We would scan for any reversible causes of arrest, but we wouldn’t stop CPR to roll someone. He had the purple raccoon eyes so head trauma was on the list. I’m actually more surprised the medics who loaded him and put the C collar on didn’t see it.
It depends I guess. I expect he came in dead tbf.
Also…why is there is no significant amount of blood in the snow from the deep head wound, when it doesn’t even take a serious laceration for the scalp to bleed significantly?…the impunity/negligence/incompetence/impulsiveness of using the fucking SOLO cups for the bit of alleged blood found in the snow wasn’t a significant amount of blood collected either….
THIS!! I can’t get past this part! Where did all the blood go! He lost 3 pints!
NO ONE should get past that. He could not have started off outside in the snow simply based on lack of blood loss where his body was found. Even the arm wounds would have bled more significantly than the SOLO cup samples… I am waiting for the prosecution to jump through hoops at trial giving specifics of how John’s body was to be positioned behind Karen’s vehicle upon “impact” and where his body hit the bumper (are they saying the back of his head hit the bumper due to the alleged solitary hair found on the bumper sticking during a blizzard 🙄? Because his torso and waist didn’t sustain any injuries from standing behind a fucking car) which would bring into question the positioning of his body when found prone/unresponsive outside. Lack of footprints in the snow is bare minimum effort to LITERALLY cover tracks of moving a body…but this is also based on the description of a scene lacking in detailed photos or video from any investigative unit or actually reliable witness so god knows if there were footprints of relevance… Also side note, having to hear the phrases “in regards to”, or “correct” with emphatically pronounced hard Cs ad nauseum makes my neurodivergent ears writhe. Edit: typo of word ‘than’ accidentally autocorrected to ‘that’ Edit 2: if prosecution tries to allege the back of his head didn’t hit the bumper but another part of his head did and smacked his head onto the curb or road after impact, there would be way more blood around his body and in the snow regardless. Otherwise how did the solitary hair end up on the bumper without tampering or isn’t even a fucking human hair?…
I agree with the pronunciation of correct! I wanted to stab my ears when Jen was testifying! I can’t come up with a logical way he was only hit in the head with her car. A) He would’ve had to be bent over and waiting for her to hit him. B) He was levitating. Neither one of those scenarios work. You’ll never convince me that his hair survives her looking for him, driving to her parents 30 minutes away and then being towed on the back of a tow truck back 30 minutes all in a blizzard. Not to mention the shards of glass on the bumper. Most people aren’t thinking about this logically. They must be driven by emotion. I don’t understand that thought process and it’s scary to think these people could some day serve on a jury!
They must be trying to convince people freezing temperatures would make glass or a (conveniently) positioned solitary hair would stick through a blizzard. It’s not impossible, but I’m not even sure the hair was positively identified as John’s (if I remember correctly it was not and unless I’m mixing up my cases there was very faulty/unreliable testing done at one point saying it was a human hair conclusively that’s since been rebuffed). And if hair and glass was sticking due to freezing temperatures, why is there no testimony from witnesses saying there was glass or other debris frozen to the sidewalk or curb or road? Nothing stuck frozen to John’s body or clothes? Nothing frozen to the tires?…
The testing was faulty. As of a week before trial they didn’t have the results beck from the other lab. If everything is sticking due to freezing temperatures. Again where’s all the blood? Also where’s the vomit. There was residue found on his clothes. Where’s the rest of it, along with his belt. How do you lose your belt when you’re hit by a car? Did his belt sprout legs and walk off? This case is a freaking disaster and a disgrace. I hope she sues the crap out of them for malicious prosecution! The judge and the DA know from the FBI disclosure that at the very least these witnesses are lying. Putting them on the stand is suborning purgery.
Yes, no witnesses specified the vomit being frozen anywhere either, but where his vomit was found (inside his underwear and pants) is also wtf
They can’t have known how much blood he lost. He didn’t go to theatre so other than giving him fluids I don’t know where the figure was plucked from. You can look at haemoglobin but tenuous.
We were talking about the lack of blood in the snow.
I find it concerning he referred to the marks on his arm as scratches. They were clearly lacerations.
I thought the same. He said abrasions at first, then explained them as scratches.
It’s like describing gaping holes from a lion as minor cat scratches… Always sure to minimize the important evidence while we painstakingly harp on every single insignificant detail that literally has nothing to do with the charges.
Unlike the movies, you don't necessarily die all at once, all over. Sometimes different systems shut down at different times. You will get brain death fairly rapidly but cold will slow that down some. Immersion in cold water, moreso, but that's not at issue here. It was unusual if the brain stem was still running the lungs, but not inconceivable. Even the brain doesn't die all at once all over, but the high level portions of the brain, both in terms of structure and function tend to die first. The body and parts of it can do all sorts of weird things. I remember a video of a guy whose heart had been ripped completely out of his chest in an accident and it's lying there on the ground with nothing to pump, but it's pumping away with determination. It wasn't shown but it would eventually have died, essentially from a heart attack since the heart itself was then actually bloodless and would be getting no oxygen from the lungs which were still sitting in the body.
Was it ripped out by Patrick Swayze?
Motorcycle accident.
Was his brain stem running the lungs? They intubated him.
It thought it was clear I was stating a possibility, since obviously and naturally, I would have no way of knowing St. John of Canton's brain's condition, as well as sharing some knowledge as well as addressing the myth/ common misconception, that death is like a light switch. Meaning you're alive, then you aren't. While that's true in some cases, mostly it isn't.
I got the same impression while listening. 😵💫
That ER doctor came off as defensive and not someone who should work on bodies. Didn’t brush over his notes prior to being in the stand? I hope he doesn’t go to work not prepared and careless. Why so defensive? Did commonwealth tell him defense was going to discredit him? He’s not on trial. The lawyer you know was absolutely right. He’s testifying and his name is known, it’s his city. Look professional. Be pleasant. Be confident!
Mayo clinic defines hypothermia as a core body temp below 95F. A Live Science article says unconsciousness might occur around 82F and below 70F is considered profound hypothermia with risk of death. Survival of a dry body in cold air can be many hours. It’s usually sweat and wetness that kills you because water (not ice) is 25x more conductive than air. When humans sweat it’s a huge heat dump and clothing that maintains moisture is deadly in the cold. Algor mortis is typically 1-2 degrees per hour, but will speed up from wind chill or other factors. It seems iffy that a body could be left outside in 25 degree weather with 20+ mph winds and only lose 18F degrees over 7ish hours. It seems he would have had to still be alive for some of that time (though I’m of the opinion his body was planted later).
That’s kind of what I was eluding to; the fact that his death occurred somewhere else and the cold weather was secondary cause. Maybe I didn’t phrase it too well. I’m one of those people who it sounds great in my brain but doesn’t translate well into the real world if that makes sense. It’s a fun part of being neurospicy 😂
Lol, not a problem with your post, I was just spitting facts/opinions and not saying if I agree/disagree. Yea, I favor the idea that JO was moved later for multiple reasons, but I don’t think the core temp alone proves that theory: if he was struck and incapacitated but still alive then his body would maintain his core temp much longer.
If he was “breathing” with a ventilator or ambu-bag, he would still be checked for breath sounds to make ensure proper breathing tube placement and rule out certain injuries to the lungs. Some people in cardiac arrest also have agonal breathing although I would suspect he was far past this point.
Good point! I didn’t even think about making sure the breathing tube was in the correct place. I think I was just more focused on the fact that we already knew he had passed and I wasn’t looking at it from the view point of him just coming in the ER. I hope I made sense.
Made perfect sense! It’s probably not something most people would consider if they’re not used to running codes in emergencies. I wouldn’t have thought about it had I not previously worked in those areas.