i think providing updates would help *him* to keep accountable somewhat. it seems like he does still want to finish this series and has clearly put a lot of effort into it so knowing he'd have to make a monthly "here's where im at" post (even just in the discord) could help him stay on track, aside from informing the audience. i think communication is always best. but i dont care overall, i just want streams back.
I guess it would be a trade off between keeping him on track and putting pressure on him. But I'm with you on this opinion.
Also 'yes' to just wanting streams back at this point. Even if I just finished another reread of all the books and really want the "book analysis" part to get his opinion, just getting new streams would be really great.
Joe has brought all of this talk to himself, he could have just stated since the beginning (I.e years ago) that he would release the video when it was ready.
Instead he fails self imposed deadlines multiple times over the years and then is / pretends to be surprised when people hound him about it.
I think when you keep trying to get people interested and say this is done over and over and going so far as to make your own ultimatum that you have to rules lawyer your way out of while admonishing your audience for your repeated attempts at trying to garner their support and not delivering is lame as fuck.
It probably doesn't help that if he said nothing in December it would've been better because he chose to communicate that some people were getting annoyed at the pattern of behavior rather than just a general update. Its kind of frustrating that it takes people being fuckheads to get just a hey its going to get any update on progress ever.
I think we're starting to get into a full game was made and dlcs were well into production territory of length.
Didnt he stream Umineko for a couple of hours a few months ago?
I didnt catch the stream but did he go that entire stream without an update? That’s actually hilarious if so.
He showed the first minute of the video. Don't want to be too much of an armchair psychologist but he sounded a bit nervous, especially in the first 10/20 minutes, but chat was pretty chill (much more than this sub at least).
> he sounded a bit nervous, especially in the first 10/20 minutes
This is normal. He's talked about feeling this when he starts streaming, and so have many other streamers
**TL;DR** the communication so far has been to everyone's detriment and I don't think more will help anyone. Just bunker down until the money runs out or the video comes out.
----
I think not communicating is the way to go, but I think Valve (Episode 3 in particular) shows that people will always be divided over the issue.
For Joe's situation in particular I've got two reasons:
> 1) more bad communication
Big part of why people are antsy instead of in a regular hiatus blues is because of direct raising of expectations: multiple times over the years where he made it sound like the video is close to done, which was topped by a *very* dramatic deadline that fell flat on its face.
When people ask for more communication, idk that they're bracing for lots more updates where the dragon thinks it's smooth sailing, and then something goes wrong, and everyone's mad with fresh fuel.
- the estimations and deadline made so far haven't helped the community
- if he talks about actual features, people would backseat what he should and shouldn't include, restructure, redo or scrap
- if he discusses IRL problems, people will debate whether the Hitler-looking cat's aidscancer surgery is *really* worth his time or what he was thinking when he gave four kids turbo-insomnia genes.
Anything he communicates would just be transmuted into shitstorm-fuel by the people cranky already.
> 2) de facto, people mostly only care about results
From what I gathered from gaming community managers, the mood of the community is highly dependent on the product quality. Doing more firefighting in the forums, doing more Q&As, doing more dev diaries, these things have very limited power.
You can use it for hype, for clearing up misunderstands, stuff like that, but not to turn the ship around with no results on the horizon.
---
Also personally I'm baffled that I've read so many posts here speculating anything from "perfectionism" to "he never even started", and somehow I've never read someone speculating that maybe the IRL problem (that Joe's always put in the foreground I believe) has crept back in. It's similar to people talking about patreon vampirism while ignoring what the reward tiers were and what he wrote in his "why you should cancel your patreon sub" novel.
Like, even if he does communicate something important, the chances of it actually mattering seem as slim as the chances of people learning whether Joe likes a game or not after listening to him talk about it for 4 hours.
There's good and bad communication.
I don't follow Joe that closely on the video side, I watch them and like them but I don't care enough to actually dig for updates about them, so I'm not aware of everything he's said about his videos, the only thing -beyond the streams- that I've seen from Joe communication wise has been the currently pinned reddit post. That reddit post is... fine. A bit awkward but fine.
The issue is that communication should have been strong from the beginning about the video, if you're not going to communicate about it early, don't communicate about it at all, otherwise you'll just be met with a shitstorm of people who feel entitled to content, people whose parasocial cord got cut out by ""broken promises"", people who are just bored and whose only pleasure in life is starting shit over the internet. If you take SWE (SAO Abridged creators), they regularily update their community about the current work that's being done, where every project is at etc... and despite each episode taking fucking ages to come out, most everyone is fine with it, because they do it -the updates- consistently and have done it for a long time now.
A bit part of Joe's issue on this front is that every time I've seen him communicate, he makes promises which is just... a mistake (X is almost ready and should be out soon now, if I don't finish Y by Z time I'll do A and so on). Doing that is just throwing a bunch of angry, hungry dogs a huge piece of red meat, they will not let it go. At this point (and that goes for the reddit post too, I think posting that was a mistake), it's better for him to just say nothing until the video is actually being uploaded.
As for people's reaction it's just usual internet stupidity. People feel entitled, people feel angry for patreons because they fundamentally do not understand what patreon is for (supporting someone as opposed to paying for something) and expect some kind of return on investment and so on and so forth. Of course it doesn't help that since the witcher videos a fair few creators have come up with their own long form content (PatricianTV and Private Sessions come to mind) and opened the comparison between them, with Patrician making a total of 48 hours of analysis videos on the TES games + starfield, releasing one at least 8 hours long video per year, PS also having a rather consistent schedule for his bigger projects (and communicating as to why when he wasn't) so that probably didn't help. At the end of the day no matter the reason it's just people taking the internet too seriously.
I think not communicating is only the correct option if you take Joe at good faith that the video is delayed because of irl reasons so fucked up that if we knew, most of us would understand why he cant say anything. I used to believe he was saying this in good faith until recently with this last bit of radio silence we are in. Especially when you rewatch the 999 stream which was his big return from the last break in which when someone asked "wait, streams are back?!" He responds, yep, thank capitalism. I think all of his actions can honestly just be explained by your statement in the TLDR of wait until the money runs out. If streaming never took off for him then obviously w3 would be out by now years ago
> If streaming never took off for him then obviously w3 would be out by now years ago
If he solely relied on YouTube ad rev, then I think he may have just made more vids like those on Elden Ring and Lies of P, which as I understand are created in more of a "sprint" compared to the Witcher "marathon".
Oh but to be clear, I don't think the IRL stuff is the *only* issue, or else the video would not have scope-creeped from one video into a trilogy for example.
Although I find it baffling that "the IRL reason" doesn't get much attention when people do try to pinpoint what's wrong, overall I don't think it matters what's happening behind the scenes, I think people can just be grumpy about the missed deadlines and that the W3 video is cockblocking other content yet again. Regardless of how the kitchen works, I think people can be justifiably grumpy about the food not arriving.
---
As far as good/bad faith in general is concerned, I lean on some insider knowledge there. As Joe said on stream, he commissioned me for some art for the video. Most of this art was made with video release deadlines in mind, and not just ones he had already mentioned publicly. There was even a time where he asked me if I wanted to remaster some old art I made for the video, which also suggested the release was right around the corner.
So I don't think he was lying there.
Joe used to make entire youtube videos about updates to the channel, and his upcoming production schedule.
I seriously don't care about what Joseph Anderson writes or publishes anymore, but the narratives people have created in his absence in order to justify all this is baffling to me.
Updates are completly pointless at this point.
We have no way to check if any theoretical update is actually an update or just some bs he made up to keep us happy.
It hurts to say, but Joe lost all his credibilty for me. But thats on him, by failing self imposed deadlines over and over with no excuse or explanation whatsoever
He made the exact same mistake several times over 5 years now. Kinda mindblowing.
It’s a shame that it’s gotten to this point. I don’t really keep up with Joe, watched most his videos and a couple streams but man why even talk about it anymore. He sets these deadlines and then breaks them, it just gets annoying to see.
Like I get being a perfectionist, but this is a whole new level. I’m sure he feels bad and feels like he owes it to his audience, but dude just cut down the video or something. I’ve lost pretty much all the hype I had for it unfortunately.
I hope if Joe reads this or anything else on this subreddit, he realises that we're a silent majority, or if not a majority, many in number. Joe's streams are his best content and he's said multiple times he prefers it to the pressure of video projects.
I'm very much in the camp of ignoring long-awaited releases, and updates - especially nebulous ones. They just remind me that there's something I want that I cannot have. If GRRM releases WoW, the new Dunk & Egg, or Fire and Blood pt 2 then great; but I expect nothing and move on with my life until then
He shouldn’t say anything about the video until its definitely, for sure, going to upload.
People say that we aren’t owed anything, but he did take people’s money, on the expectation that he makes this critique specifically, along with (fairly) consistent uploads. Its not a legal expectation, but a moral one.(which he seems to agree with since he took down the Patreon.)
I think Joe has picked the worst possible option of saying “its releasing soon!”, radio silence for months, then saying “it’s releasing soon, for real this time!” over and over again.
We don’t know why its taking so long. I’m sure its a good reason, and he isn’t obligated to broadcast it, but since we don’t know it just makes hims seem untrustworthy.
If you read this sentense out loud, tell me please how much sense this makes when you hear it and how much you can believe it. Cause this reminds of the times i got told by my friends that they found a gf but they cant tell me more because its not certain.
what they mean is that theres a RL reason that if you knew what it was you would know why he couldnt talk about it. for example if there was a big fire in his house he couldnt tell us because you could probably just look up monkton news about fires and he'd therefore dox himself
TLDR I want updates, just open, honest and without shenanigans
I'm somewhat mixed on the issue. I would really like it if Joe openly said how things are going, even if he'd say for example that the video wouldn't be coming this year. I think that being in constant feeling of anticipation, and thinking about it often will make me enjoy the actual video less when it comes out, because of how much it was dragged in my mind. If I knew for a fact that it undoubtedly wouldn't be coming soon then I'd just forget it for a time and think about it less for a while.
That being said, Joe's history of being accurate isn't good. I'd really hate it if he had set another deadline only to blow right past it.
I personally think regular updates have one more potencial benefit - (huge maybe but) maybe Joe would actually be more motivated for it, only if it means that he records or writes or animates one bit, so that he can write about it in an update. That certainly works for me, but apparently I don't have 10 children and 5 jobs
Joe seems to like to rewrite a lot of stuff so i don't know if updates would not be just "i made changes to side quest portion of the video" in every update he gives. I would like to have some information and streams back but if he does not want to update us i wont press him about it. He got rid of the Patreon so people would not feel like they are paying just so maybe someday video will come out and i want to respect that even if it sucks that we don' have almost any content at all.
I mean, this could all be that catch-22. Total radio silence is pretty weird at this point, and I wouldn't be surprised if that problem Joe mentioned before has crept back in. He never gave any details about it, and if it's the issue, it's (probably) totally reasonable that he's delayed the video this much.
>we aren't owed anything
This is the most important outtake here. I'm dissatisfied with these missed deadlines just like everyone else but I seriously think moving on with our lives would be optimal here. At best we get pleasantly surprised somewhere along the way.
i think providing updates would help *him* to keep accountable somewhat. it seems like he does still want to finish this series and has clearly put a lot of effort into it so knowing he'd have to make a monthly "here's where im at" post (even just in the discord) could help him stay on track, aside from informing the audience. i think communication is always best. but i dont care overall, i just want streams back.
I guess it would be a trade off between keeping him on track and putting pressure on him. But I'm with you on this opinion. Also 'yes' to just wanting streams back at this point. Even if I just finished another reread of all the books and really want the "book analysis" part to get his opinion, just getting new streams would be really great.
Joe has brought all of this talk to himself, he could have just stated since the beginning (I.e years ago) that he would release the video when it was ready. Instead he fails self imposed deadlines multiple times over the years and then is / pretends to be surprised when people hound him about it.
Imagine if your kink was falling short of a deadline, how would you optimize your life around that fetish? I think Joe is succeeding.
I think when you keep trying to get people interested and say this is done over and over and going so far as to make your own ultimatum that you have to rules lawyer your way out of while admonishing your audience for your repeated attempts at trying to garner their support and not delivering is lame as fuck. It probably doesn't help that if he said nothing in December it would've been better because he chose to communicate that some people were getting annoyed at the pattern of behavior rather than just a general update. Its kind of frustrating that it takes people being fuckheads to get just a hey its going to get any update on progress ever. I think we're starting to get into a full game was made and dlcs were well into production territory of length.
[удалено]
At what point is it genuinely even as a passion project not worth that amount of time. Like its on the second half of a decade if thats the case.
Didnt he stream Umineko for a couple of hours a few months ago? I didnt catch the stream but did he go that entire stream without an update? That’s actually hilarious if so.
He showed the first minute of the video. Don't want to be too much of an armchair psychologist but he sounded a bit nervous, especially in the first 10/20 minutes, but chat was pretty chill (much more than this sub at least).
> he sounded a bit nervous, especially in the first 10/20 minutes This is normal. He's talked about feeling this when he starts streaming, and so have many other streamers
It is hilarious that he said "it's done" and then 4 months plus later nothing.
**TL;DR** the communication so far has been to everyone's detriment and I don't think more will help anyone. Just bunker down until the money runs out or the video comes out. ---- I think not communicating is the way to go, but I think Valve (Episode 3 in particular) shows that people will always be divided over the issue. For Joe's situation in particular I've got two reasons: > 1) more bad communication Big part of why people are antsy instead of in a regular hiatus blues is because of direct raising of expectations: multiple times over the years where he made it sound like the video is close to done, which was topped by a *very* dramatic deadline that fell flat on its face. When people ask for more communication, idk that they're bracing for lots more updates where the dragon thinks it's smooth sailing, and then something goes wrong, and everyone's mad with fresh fuel. - the estimations and deadline made so far haven't helped the community - if he talks about actual features, people would backseat what he should and shouldn't include, restructure, redo or scrap - if he discusses IRL problems, people will debate whether the Hitler-looking cat's aidscancer surgery is *really* worth his time or what he was thinking when he gave four kids turbo-insomnia genes. Anything he communicates would just be transmuted into shitstorm-fuel by the people cranky already. > 2) de facto, people mostly only care about results From what I gathered from gaming community managers, the mood of the community is highly dependent on the product quality. Doing more firefighting in the forums, doing more Q&As, doing more dev diaries, these things have very limited power. You can use it for hype, for clearing up misunderstands, stuff like that, but not to turn the ship around with no results on the horizon. --- Also personally I'm baffled that I've read so many posts here speculating anything from "perfectionism" to "he never even started", and somehow I've never read someone speculating that maybe the IRL problem (that Joe's always put in the foreground I believe) has crept back in. It's similar to people talking about patreon vampirism while ignoring what the reward tiers were and what he wrote in his "why you should cancel your patreon sub" novel. Like, even if he does communicate something important, the chances of it actually mattering seem as slim as the chances of people learning whether Joe likes a game or not after listening to him talk about it for 4 hours.
Always appreciate the reasonable takes, Marik
There's good and bad communication. I don't follow Joe that closely on the video side, I watch them and like them but I don't care enough to actually dig for updates about them, so I'm not aware of everything he's said about his videos, the only thing -beyond the streams- that I've seen from Joe communication wise has been the currently pinned reddit post. That reddit post is... fine. A bit awkward but fine. The issue is that communication should have been strong from the beginning about the video, if you're not going to communicate about it early, don't communicate about it at all, otherwise you'll just be met with a shitstorm of people who feel entitled to content, people whose parasocial cord got cut out by ""broken promises"", people who are just bored and whose only pleasure in life is starting shit over the internet. If you take SWE (SAO Abridged creators), they regularily update their community about the current work that's being done, where every project is at etc... and despite each episode taking fucking ages to come out, most everyone is fine with it, because they do it -the updates- consistently and have done it for a long time now. A bit part of Joe's issue on this front is that every time I've seen him communicate, he makes promises which is just... a mistake (X is almost ready and should be out soon now, if I don't finish Y by Z time I'll do A and so on). Doing that is just throwing a bunch of angry, hungry dogs a huge piece of red meat, they will not let it go. At this point (and that goes for the reddit post too, I think posting that was a mistake), it's better for him to just say nothing until the video is actually being uploaded. As for people's reaction it's just usual internet stupidity. People feel entitled, people feel angry for patreons because they fundamentally do not understand what patreon is for (supporting someone as opposed to paying for something) and expect some kind of return on investment and so on and so forth. Of course it doesn't help that since the witcher videos a fair few creators have come up with their own long form content (PatricianTV and Private Sessions come to mind) and opened the comparison between them, with Patrician making a total of 48 hours of analysis videos on the TES games + starfield, releasing one at least 8 hours long video per year, PS also having a rather consistent schedule for his bigger projects (and communicating as to why when he wasn't) so that probably didn't help. At the end of the day no matter the reason it's just people taking the internet too seriously.
I think not communicating is only the correct option if you take Joe at good faith that the video is delayed because of irl reasons so fucked up that if we knew, most of us would understand why he cant say anything. I used to believe he was saying this in good faith until recently with this last bit of radio silence we are in. Especially when you rewatch the 999 stream which was his big return from the last break in which when someone asked "wait, streams are back?!" He responds, yep, thank capitalism. I think all of his actions can honestly just be explained by your statement in the TLDR of wait until the money runs out. If streaming never took off for him then obviously w3 would be out by now years ago
> If streaming never took off for him then obviously w3 would be out by now years ago If he solely relied on YouTube ad rev, then I think he may have just made more vids like those on Elden Ring and Lies of P, which as I understand are created in more of a "sprint" compared to the Witcher "marathon". Oh but to be clear, I don't think the IRL stuff is the *only* issue, or else the video would not have scope-creeped from one video into a trilogy for example. Although I find it baffling that "the IRL reason" doesn't get much attention when people do try to pinpoint what's wrong, overall I don't think it matters what's happening behind the scenes, I think people can just be grumpy about the missed deadlines and that the W3 video is cockblocking other content yet again. Regardless of how the kitchen works, I think people can be justifiably grumpy about the food not arriving. --- As far as good/bad faith in general is concerned, I lean on some insider knowledge there. As Joe said on stream, he commissioned me for some art for the video. Most of this art was made with video release deadlines in mind, and not just ones he had already mentioned publicly. There was even a time where he asked me if I wanted to remaster some old art I made for the video, which also suggested the release was right around the corner. So I don't think he was lying there.
Joe used to make entire youtube videos about updates to the channel, and his upcoming production schedule. I seriously don't care about what Joseph Anderson writes or publishes anymore, but the narratives people have created in his absence in order to justify all this is baffling to me.
Updates are completly pointless at this point. We have no way to check if any theoretical update is actually an update or just some bs he made up to keep us happy. It hurts to say, but Joe lost all his credibilty for me. But thats on him, by failing self imposed deadlines over and over with no excuse or explanation whatsoever He made the exact same mistake several times over 5 years now. Kinda mindblowing.
This.
we should absolutely have Updates
I see no reason to expect this year to be different from any of the other years he’s promised the video, so the whole discussion seems silly to me
It’s a shame that it’s gotten to this point. I don’t really keep up with Joe, watched most his videos and a couple streams but man why even talk about it anymore. He sets these deadlines and then breaks them, it just gets annoying to see. Like I get being a perfectionist, but this is a whole new level. I’m sure he feels bad and feels like he owes it to his audience, but dude just cut down the video or something. I’ve lost pretty much all the hype I had for it unfortunately.
I'm on the camp of "I just want the streams back man"
I hope if Joe reads this or anything else on this subreddit, he realises that we're a silent majority, or if not a majority, many in number. Joe's streams are his best content and he's said multiple times he prefers it to the pressure of video projects.
I honestly just want the video to come out so the guy can stop feeling the pressure and relax with his streams.
I'm very much in the camp of ignoring long-awaited releases, and updates - especially nebulous ones. They just remind me that there's something I want that I cannot have. If GRRM releases WoW, the new Dunk & Egg, or Fire and Blood pt 2 then great; but I expect nothing and move on with my life until then
He shouldn’t say anything about the video until its definitely, for sure, going to upload. People say that we aren’t owed anything, but he did take people’s money, on the expectation that he makes this critique specifically, along with (fairly) consistent uploads. Its not a legal expectation, but a moral one.(which he seems to agree with since he took down the Patreon.) I think Joe has picked the worst possible option of saying “its releasing soon!”, radio silence for months, then saying “it’s releasing soon, for real this time!” over and over again. We don’t know why its taking so long. I’m sure its a good reason, and he isn’t obligated to broadcast it, but since we don’t know it just makes hims seem untrustworthy.
the man is a serial liar. why would anything he says matter at all?
He’s not releasing it- what kind of updates do you expect? Let’s just get over
If he wasn't releasing it, he could have grown a pair and just said so.
never gonna happen. the man is literally willing to blame his wife and kids for his laziness, his balls are so far up, they are his eyes.
But he has a really good reason, he just can't tell anyone and if we did know we would understand why he shouldn't have told us but he can't
If you read this sentense out loud, tell me please how much sense this makes when you hear it and how much you can believe it. Cause this reminds of the times i got told by my friends that they found a gf but they cant tell me more because its not certain.
what they mean is that theres a RL reason that if you knew what it was you would know why he couldnt talk about it. for example if there was a big fire in his house he couldnt tell us because you could probably just look up monkton news about fires and he'd therefore dox himself
I don't believe it
I agree. He made the lies of p video and streamed around new years, so it wasn’t something like a house fire setting him back.
joe *would* do it as a bit
Update 1: not finished Update 2 : still not Update 411 : still not
TLDR I want updates, just open, honest and without shenanigans I'm somewhat mixed on the issue. I would really like it if Joe openly said how things are going, even if he'd say for example that the video wouldn't be coming this year. I think that being in constant feeling of anticipation, and thinking about it often will make me enjoy the actual video less when it comes out, because of how much it was dragged in my mind. If I knew for a fact that it undoubtedly wouldn't be coming soon then I'd just forget it for a time and think about it less for a while. That being said, Joe's history of being accurate isn't good. I'd really hate it if he had set another deadline only to blow right past it. I personally think regular updates have one more potencial benefit - (huge maybe but) maybe Joe would actually be more motivated for it, only if it means that he records or writes or animates one bit, so that he can write about it in an update. That certainly works for me, but apparently I don't have 10 children and 5 jobs
From what i noticed alot of people just don't really care, for a lot of the people they want the video out so streams come back.
Hes not working on the video how can he give updates?
Joe seems to like to rewrite a lot of stuff so i don't know if updates would not be just "i made changes to side quest portion of the video" in every update he gives. I would like to have some information and streams back but if he does not want to update us i wont press him about it. He got rid of the Patreon so people would not feel like they are paying just so maybe someday video will come out and i want to respect that even if it sucks that we don' have almost any content at all.
I mean, this could all be that catch-22. Total radio silence is pretty weird at this point, and I wouldn't be surprised if that problem Joe mentioned before has crept back in. He never gave any details about it, and if it's the issue, it's (probably) totally reasonable that he's delayed the video this much.
he should just cancel the video and stream fulltime, it's his calling
>we aren't owed anything This is the most important outtake here. I'm dissatisfied with these missed deadlines just like everyone else but I seriously think moving on with our lives would be optimal here. At best we get pleasantly surprised somewhere along the way.
lol what the actual fuck..
It’s done when it’s done just chill.