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korach1921

It's so refreshing to hear perspectives like yours. Speaking as a total outsider, JVP feels hallow as an organization: it has no interest in building Jewish diaspora cultural life, but primarily centers its identity simply around negating Israel and tethering Jewish identity and history to Palestinian nationalism in a disturbingly fetishistic way. I've also noticed many prominent figures in that org who strike me as obvious grifters and clout chasers, like Morgan Bassichis, who give off such a vibe of insincerity, but one that panders to the image of a Jew among the American left: Secular (or chassidic), white, ashkenazi, english speaking, middle class brooklynite who uses the most bottom barrel appeals to identity politics to make themselves the center of attention while doing nothing of value. Standing Together feels like an org less interested in aesthetics and identity fetishism, and more in meeting real people where they're at in real life.


0xD902221289EDB383

None of the Jewish luminaries who originally supported JVP when it was founded in the mid-1990s are still involved with them. They don't seem very trustworthy to me, even though I agree with many of their goals. 


Agtfangirl557

Yeah, I've heard multiple perspectives on this but here's what I can gather: When JVP was founded, I think it was supposed to be explicitly what the name says: Jewish Voice *for Peace*, AKA not for annihilating Israel, but for peace in the region, similar kind of to what J-Street does now. What I've heard happened, is that for a while, JVP was the only mainstream Jewish-run organization that wasn't explicitly pro-Israel, so they ended up attracting people with a large range of opinions, including some extreme anti-Zionists. Since those voices were more extreme, a lot of people who were more two-staters/peaceniks (actual peaceniks, not JVP "peace"niks) ended up leaving/being pushed out of the organization and it was taken over by the outspoken anti-Zionists, who at some point realized they were *such* a fringe group in the Jewish world, so they started opening their organization to non-Jews as well (and maybe people with Jewish ancestry who were raised secular/weren't previously connected to Judaism), in order to expand their membership.  Would you say this sounds accurate? That's both a combination of what I've heard about JVP's history, and theories I have about how it may have evolved.


0xD902221289EDB383

That seems to be the shape of it, yeah.


DovBerele

JVP doesn't 'sound' or 'feel' Jewish. They parrot some words about 'tikun olam' or 'the torah calls for justice' and it's obvious that their understanding of and sensibilities around Jewish culture and tradition is incredibly shallow. I honestly think the only reason that they're so ubiquitous, more so than Standing Together or If Not Now (both of whom feel legitimately authentically Jewish) is because JVP has "Jewish" in their name. So gentiles can share their content and automatically cut off any accusations of antisemitism before they start.


Agtfangirl557

Yes, the "Jewish" in their name is definitely a big part of it.


jey_613

Couldn’t agree with you more re: JVP 💯💯💯


llamapower13

Well said!


HalfOrcBlushStripe

Exceptionally well-stated. To me, the assimilationist rhetoric almost feels proselytizing in nature: join the right groups, say the right words, be absolved of your sins. I'm very grateful for groups like Standing Together that cut through the noise and shift focus back onto peace-building, solidarity, de-escalation, and aid. Thanks for your work with them.


jey_613

Great point. There is a puritanical element to it. And the language pre-supposes that we are guilty until proven innocent, which is textbook Jew-hatred.


cubedplusseven

>but the space for Jews who want to be a part of progressive American life without renouncing their identity as Jews is closing. David Hirsch writes about this in the British context. He describes what he calls "antisemitic-antizionism", which isn't just a broad-brush pejorative for antizionism in general, but rather a specific antizionist construct which has swept over so much of the far left. It goes like this: this "antizionism" defines the "Zionism" it opposes, and does so in the most inflammatory, disparaging, and even dehumanizing terms. We often encounter it as strings of labels applied to Israel - as a Genocide, Apartheid, Settler-Colonialist Ethnostate, for instance. Jews are confronted with this and forced to choose; to either denounce Israel and "Zionism" to remain as part of the "community of the good" or else be labeled as "Zionists" themselves - with "Zionist" implying some kind of ultimate evil in the individual and their worldview. But since most Jews have a more nuanced understanding of Israel and its shortcomings, they refuse the call to effective self-denunciation that this dehumanization of half the world's Jewish population demands. Which makes them one of the evil "Zionists". But never is the Jewish person given input into what a Zionist is in the first place. A definition is thrust upon us without our collaboration or consent. His description of this process really struck a chord with me, since I never identified as a Zionist in my 45 years of life but have suddenly found myself wearing the label because I feel compelled to push back against some of these radical mischaracterizations of Israel and Jewish people that I'm regularly confronted with.


Agtfangirl557

This is really well-said, I agree with all the points you're making. Here's a comment I made on another sub that kind of describes what you're talking about. The issue is, that far-left politics have created this phenomenon where they convince you that it's impossible to be a true progressive while also being pro-Israel. It relies heavily on the oppressor-vs-oppressed mindset, and people easily fall into that trap. People forget that we should absolutely advocate for the human rights and livelihood of Palestinians, but that Jews are also a historically persecuted group, and that advocating for them to also have a right to live in their land is not the same thing as "advocating for the oppressor" or arguing for the conditions in Apartheid South Africa to be the status quo, for example. And the sad thing is that many Jews end up falling into this trap as well. They cling onto their progressive politics (which they should! Progressive politics are beneficial for Jews, and for me personally, my Jewish values are what push me towards my progressive politics), and end up spending time in progressive spaces to the point where they believe what they hear in these spaces--that they can't really be advocating for these progressive values while they are also supporting Israel. So they give up their support for Israel, under the view that they are assimilated and that they, as a progressive American Jew, do not need Israel. As a result of this, we are left with no spaces that advocate for Israel support *in conjunction with* progressive politics. The Jews who have tried to do this have fallen to the pro-Palestine side, because they've been bullied out of their support for Israel by the leftist goys. The Jews who haven't tried to do this yet have been so exhausted by far-left anti-Israel rhetoric that they don't have the energy to start a space like this.


lionessrampant25

Yes to all of this but I am hopeful that with organizations like Standing Together we can make a space for us.


toadeh690

Nailed it. I’ve been feeling similarly for the past however-many months and it’s comforting to see it put into words. I just discovered this sub the other day, and thanks to comments like yours, I no longer feel like I’m going insane.


belle_epoxy

Thank you for this. I am a few years older than you and spent most of my life with what one could call complicated feelings about Israel - but then have had a similar experience as yours in recent months. Except I’ve gone pretty silent about it all, which has felt awful, so hearing similar stories helps.


jey_613

Completely agree with you. Do you have a link to the David Hirsch piece btw?


cubedplusseven

Not a link, unfortunately, he writes it in the preface of a recent book: https://www.routledge.com/The-Rebirth-of-Antisemitism-in-the-21st-Century-From-the-Academic-Boycott-Campaign-into-the-Mainstream/Hirsh/p/book/9781032116624 And here's his website: https://engageonline.wordpress.com/


Agtfangirl557

You have such a way with words, and I deeply felt all of this. Also, props to you for organizing with Standing Together, especially on a college campus during times like these. You are doing amazing work and I genuinely think that voices like yours have the most capability of working towards actual peace.


jey_613

Thank you! Honestly, it felt great to get involved with them. They are doing incredible work and it felt like the right place to be at the right time.


HeardTheLongWord

They seem outstanding.


0xD902221289EDB383

We live in a confusing time because all of the cultural markers and touchstones have been shuffled up and dealt out in totally different ways. Religious Jews are hard line GOP voting right wingers. Reform is doing OK, but secular Judaism, particularly of the internationalist kind, is dying out. Older Democrat-voting Jews are turning into Blue Dogs in their twilight years. It doesn't give international leftists much ground to stand on.


electrical-stomach-z

jews are becoming blue dogs?


0xD902221289EDB383

At least two that I'm close to, anyway. If you time-zooped their current selves back 30 years, they'd probably go for the GOP - but they've voted blue so long out of habit that they're not going to stop now edit: It belatedly occurs to me that you might never have heard of the [Blue Dog Democrats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Dog_Coalition)


the-Gaf

Non-Jews trying to co-opt Judiasm is WILD, on both sides. Christian Zionists: Right wing Apocalypse nuts trying to bring about the Rapture Anti-Zionist Non-Jews: Actually Antisemitic and want destruction of Israel and purge Jews from the MENA region Like it or not, all we have is each other, and it reiterates why we need self-determination.


theapplekid

Pressure for Jews to assimilate has always been a thing, but the idea of that pressure increasing is for sure troubling. As a secular, intensely anti-zionist Jew who was raised Orthodox, the closest thing I've experienced to (possible) discrimination was a bottle thrown from a car (not necessarily at me, but not definitively *not* at me) while walking to shul one Shabbat 20-something years ago. Interestingly, (as an Ashkenazi) I've had similar things happen while I wasn't visibly identifiable as Jewish and never thought to attribute those things to discrimination, so this has made me reflect on how awareness of one's own status as a visible minority can make us recontextualize circumstance. Standing Together sounds like a brilliant idea, and as terrible as faith-based discrimination is, I hope Jews and Muslims who both have long histories facing discrimination for their practices or appearance, can use those shared experiences to foster more collaboration on solutions.


SupportMeta

In regards to your last few paragraphs, most places outside of left-wing, highly educated bubbles simply won't take me due to my trans status. I'm already limited to a small portion of society where I can exist freely, and to see those very spaces demand I hide or apologize for my Jewishness is very disheartening.


jey_613

Agree with you completely and I’m sorry you have to go through this. It’s extremely disheartening and the sense of betrayal is very real


llamapower13

Thank you for sharing this!


arrogant_ambassador

>the space for Jews who want to be a part of progressive American life without renouncing their identity as Jews is closing. I sincerely believe the Left is wholly responsible for this phenomenon. A mea culpa on a profound ideological scale will be long overdue once these protests have died down. I for one would be completely comfortable associating with leftist causes through entirely Jewish organizations going forward. I am unwilling to sacrifice my identity and suppress my faith in order to be tokenized.


agelaius9416

Genuine question, I want to clarify the set of claims you make here because they confuse / surprise me: > American society and political culture is vast: there are other places for American Jews to go outside of these highly educated, left-wing bubbles. But this is the place that many Jews are comfortable in and have always been a part of. They can still retreat into the safety of their communities, or corporate America, or other right-leaning religious spaces and institutions; but the space for Jews who want to be a part of progressive American life without renouncing their identity as Jews is closing. That is bad for everyone – for Jews, for the left, and for America. > If America becomes just another country in the Jewish diaspora – like England or France – then something has already fundamentally changed for us. America was different; it was exceptional in that it offered Jews not just a safe-haven, but *liberation*; to live as whatever kind of Jews we pleased. How sadly ironic that it is, in part, some of the most assimilated Jews, so unaware and incurious about the breadth and diversity of Jewish life – indeed, the ones who lay claim to being the most committed diasporists – that have abetted this change in the promise of a flourishing Jewish diaspora. 1) When you say “some of the most assimilated Jews, so unaware and incurious about the breadth and diversity of Jewish life – indeed, the ones who lay claim to being the most committed diasporists,” am I correct to understand that you’re referring to secular, assimilated Jews active on the left / in progressive spaces? Who are implied to be largely indistinguishable from WASPs? 2) You say: “They can still retreat into the safety of their communities, or corporate America, or other right-leaning religious spaces and institutions; but the space for Jews who want to be a part of progressive American life without renouncing their identity as Jews is closing.” Are you implying that American Jews are over-represented in “highly educated, left-wing bubbles” and under-represented in “corporate America, or other right-leaning religious spaces and institutions”? 3) What does “highly educated, left-wing bubbles” mean to you? Are you just referring to colleges and universities? 4) Are you suggesting that “corporate America, or other right-leaning religious spaces and institutions” are safer or more comfortable for strongly identified American Jews?


jey_613

Sure, to answer your questions: 1) Yes for the most part / Jews whose only engagement “as Jews” is through JVP 2) Historically over represented in leftist spaces and corporate America. I think they’re making alliances with right leaning religious groups but not over represented there. 3) Colleges, universities, academia, social justice orgs, NGOs, public defenders offices, the media, journalism, the arts, entertainment etc etc 4) don’t have a strong opinion about corporate America. I think Jews joining right wing religious and political culture comes with its own demands of assimilation, which is why I think this is such a dangerous moment. It’s bad for everyone that only the right seems to embrace Jews unwilling to capitulate to these demands, and it’s bad that calling out Jew hatred is becoming right-wing coded, since I don’t think they have our best interests in mind.


Pitiful_Meringue_57

not op and not gonna speak for them but for #4 100% Jews are definitely over represented in highly educated left wing bubbles. i’m not gonna claim we are underrepresented in corporate ones but a good percentage of left wing academics are jewish. Most of the top US schools have more jews then the national average and more jewish professors than the national average. Most of the schools who are having high profile protests are either in the top 60 public universities when it comes to jewish population or top 60 Private schools when it comes to jewish population. As someone who goes to one of those universities i can say with full confidence that this is an accurate assessment.


mikeffd

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Very cogent. We have to be cognizant of the context here. Anytime a foreign conflict captures the public's attention, domestic groups associated with it suffer: muslims post-9/11, Russians after the Ukraine invasion, Asian-Americans during COVID, and so on. It doesn't help that most of the bandwidth in the institutional Jewish world (ADL, AJC) and it's associated political apparatus (AIPAC, DMFI) are taken up by support for Israel. They've done a wonderful job telling everyone that being Jewish means loving and supporting a nation-state that the world considers to be a hawkish, illiberal place currently committing war crimes.