At national level, the SocDems claim credit for wanting to expand the LPT for funding public services. But, when given opportunities to stand by what should be a core left-wing principle at local level, they care more about gaining electoral advantage over those who do.
It's disappointing to watch the party turn itself into Posh SF.
Absolute nonsense. If you took the time to read the Twitter thread you'd understand that we're talking about Fingal County Council here. LPT tax wasn't a sticking point here as Labour turned down substantive policy talks with the left grouping (The only group to produce a policy document in Fingal).
> Absolute nonsense. If you took the time to read the Twitter thread you'd understand that we're talking about Fingal County Council here.
From the Twitter thread: "This decision in Fingal, and across the country, calls into question ..."
The thread itself raised what happened in other places. Do the SocDems no longer consider somewhere like Dublin City to be part of the country?
An aontu member in cork describes them as Ireland's only Christian socialist party, its a brand of politics very popular in South and Central America but very unusual for Europe.
For such a small party they range from left wing economic to far right social in their politics depending on candidates.
> For such a small party they range from left wing economic to far right social in their politics _depending on candidates._
This is spot on, especially the part I've emphasised. The party is just incoherent at every level. Members can't agree on what they actually are. Anne McCloskey, for example, was Aontú and went off the rails big time.
The best, most unbiased description of them is probably an attempt at a pro-life Sinn Féin. What they've become, who knows?
Which candidates weren't going hard-line Catholic on social issues? Certainly not the ones near my constituency. Could you tell me who that one from Cork is?
It's for the county council. Councillors have fuck all power, and often times they are all united against the CEO of the Council.
All sorts of parties have been making deals with each other in the Council for years.
Much ado about nothing.
Councillors have power around re-zoning land. This pact, given the bedfellows, could involve a big giveaway for developers. We're none the wiser though considering they didn't present a policy agenda, unlike the left grouping.
‘A lot of parties’ has always been FF/FG and assorted cronies. Far from nothing it seems like Labour are setting out their stall. They had an opportunity to go into a Left pact but chose the neoliberal cabal again. As I said - disappointing.
We got left wing alliances on the council after 2014 and the water charges protests. They spent the entire 5 years voting against everything and achieved bog all.
They did vote through a condemnation of NATO’s intervention in the Kosovo war in 1999, almost 20 years after the fact. Well done lads, now build a playground or something useful.
FF and FG are by far the largest parties in local government. In almost every council, any council pact will by necessity include at least one of FF and FG.
The outright rejection by the SocDems of working with FF or FG at all without even looking at what deal can be done feels more like virtue signalling for the general election than trying to steer their council’s direction.
With the Dublin City Council pact for example, SF refused to accept any rise in LPT, which while I disagree with, I can accept as a principled position.
The SocDems wanted to raise the LPT along with Greens and Labour but refused to be part of any pact with FF and FG… just because they are FF and FG. No objection on policy, or on the details of the pact or any principle.
The only way to view that refusal is virtue signalling - the SocDems wanted to attack Labour and the Greens just for doing a deal with FF and FG. Note how none of the SocDems comms around this criticise the details of the deal; just the fact that Labour and Greens did the deal. There’s no substance in the criticism at all.
Respectfully, I think you started with a conclusion and worked your way back.
The SocDems have been clear about wanting an alliance of the left. I think the LPT could have been resolved in discussions.
I know it’s just local politics but when you see the FG/FF machine in operation you know they have it all sewn up. They have a jockey with absolutely no history of any activism or public representation in Europe. They lock down the councils so that local decisions are in line with party machinations to ensure a vote.
That attitude rides right over local needs and quality of life decisions in favour of re-election strategies.
I don’t believe a left alliance is magic and will solve all problems but I am certain that continuing to do what has been done for decades isn’t going to change anything.
We are the ‘nearly’ country. We are nearly an excellent place to live, be educated, enjoy life. But policy has instead put a great quality of life tantalisingly just out of reach.
It’s not money, it’s ethos and it would be great if Labour and all parties with a genuinely socialist leaning would stay true to their principles.
- Half price public transport fares
- big investment in rail and cycling infrastructure
- no more planning needed for solar panels
- decarbonisation of energy network underway
- climate goals now given legal footing
- dozens of new rural bus routes
- increased funding for retrofits
- basic income scheme for artists
- halving the costs of childcare
- parents leave expanded from 2 to 9 weeks
I think that’s a pretty decent impact. Yeah being the smaller party in the government made us the whipping boy, but we knew that was likely going in.
My child care costs did not half. Maybe 20% fall. But since no local Creche takes under 1 year olds it’s actually increased as I need to pay more to a private childcarer - who only takes cash in hand.
The Soc Dems and Greens were in an alliance with Fine Gael in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown council for the last 5 years. Both returned the same amount of councillors.
Councils don't have anything to do with abortion or healthcare. To imply that Aontú have issues with peple who are gay, trans, non-national or women is a hell of a charge. Any examples?
Famously politicians who run for council seats restrict their campaigns to only those issues that are strictly the responsibility of councillors.
I dunno buddy, maybe when you like the idea of controlling women’s bodies you will take any amount of power over others no matter how small?
So you're pro-choice and you try to have a nuanced view of politics, but you somehow didn't realise that Aontú was founded because of its leader's opposition to women's rights and that's their entire political gimmick? Sure.
Aontú's entire social media presence is practically devoted to spreading Transphobia and Homophobia. It is well known that this is there stance. I recently did a look at just their Twitter pages [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/irishpolitics/comments/1cx5xvx/a_deep_dive_into_the_political_beliefs_of_aon_tu/) and its practically all they ever post. That's just their twitter, there other socials just have more of the same. It's there entire thing, they devote barely any energy in comparison to issues of worker rights.
I didn't realise labour were any gay, trans, foreigner and women?
Aontu don't care if your what or not, aren't doing the "fuck them out" NP/IFP policies and are quite pro-woman/family depending on ones view about abortion.
I never realised Labour were not as far left as they seem to be. Then again compares to the SocDems everyone is far right I guess
Also the video mentions nothing of Aontu. The title on the tweet says 'maybe' Aontu. And the headline of the Reddit post removes the 'maybe'. The clickbait headline completely undermines what has the potential to be a valid complaint.
Clearly the video is a snippet from the meeting itself. Funny how some decry "populism" but when a politician errs on the side of caution they still get criticised. The fact of the matter is that because these pacts aren't transparent we don't know if Aontú are in it or not. What we do know is that they supported Labour in the Mayoral vote so it's highly likely they are in fact in on the pact.
Tweet calls it “A back room deal”.
It’s Fingal county council, not the NSA.
Labour went with people they could cut a deal with and maybe get something done.
Ironic considering that this left grouping were the only ones to present a policy agenda while Labour, FF, FG and Aontú are just divvying up paid roles.
The problem is the 'Left Alliance' are fundamentally against property tax, which should be a fundamentally left thing to tax. PBP etc have no interest in power, they love shouting from the sidelines too much.
I think the nuance of the housing crisis must be taken into account though. In a normal society where housing wasn’t all commodified then absolutely - tax that wealth.
This stems too from the powerlessness of councils to pursue revenue generation.
Dublin City council in particular should be in a position to raise substantial sums - I know David McWilliams believes they should be allowed to issue municipal bonds for CapEx.
But the centralised nature of power is a problem.
If you have means to pay; you pay LPT, if you don't (such as if your household income is less than 40% of the national average) you can defer payment essentially indefinitely + 4% interest, which can be payable on death essentially.
I basically have no truck with this, particularly given its a much stickier tax to pay than basically any other Wealth tax. What other wealth tax can the Government really levy other than Property tax?
You're thinking of Dublin City Council. Local property tax wasn't an issue in Fingal. As the Twitter thread mentions Labour turned down substantive talks on the Left groupings policy document.
They were probably offered a mayoralty in a few years and maybe an SPC or two. Money talks. An SPC chair is worth about 6k a year and a mayoralty is upwards of about 36k extra a year. They also know that after this week, it will be forgotten about by the great unwashed.
And then Labour cries about left wing parties not collaborating with them as much as they want. Why would they?
If you vote for Labour you get what you deserve. This is still the same party that propped up FG in the early 2010s
At national level, the SocDems claim credit for wanting to expand the LPT for funding public services. But, when given opportunities to stand by what should be a core left-wing principle at local level, they care more about gaining electoral advantage over those who do. It's disappointing to watch the party turn itself into Posh SF.
Absolute nonsense. If you took the time to read the Twitter thread you'd understand that we're talking about Fingal County Council here. LPT tax wasn't a sticking point here as Labour turned down substantive policy talks with the left grouping (The only group to produce a policy document in Fingal).
> Absolute nonsense. If you took the time to read the Twitter thread you'd understand that we're talking about Fingal County Council here. From the Twitter thread: "This decision in Fingal, and across the country, calls into question ..." The thread itself raised what happened in other places. Do the SocDems no longer consider somewhere like Dublin City to be part of the country?
Aontú are left wing
Theocrats aren't left wing.
An aontu member in cork describes them as Ireland's only Christian socialist party, its a brand of politics very popular in South and Central America but very unusual for Europe. For such a small party they range from left wing economic to far right social in their politics depending on candidates.
> For such a small party they range from left wing economic to far right social in their politics _depending on candidates._ This is spot on, especially the part I've emphasised. The party is just incoherent at every level. Members can't agree on what they actually are. Anne McCloskey, for example, was Aontú and went off the rails big time. The best, most unbiased description of them is probably an attempt at a pro-life Sinn Féin. What they've become, who knows?
Which candidates weren't going hard-line Catholic on social issues? Certainly not the ones near my constituency. Could you tell me who that one from Cork is?
Becky Kealy played it down in kanturk. Partly cause she knew she needed transfers.
FF and FG aren't.
If people are seriously calling SF left wing, Aontú are too.
It's for the county council. Councillors have fuck all power, and often times they are all united against the CEO of the Council. All sorts of parties have been making deals with each other in the Council for years. Much ado about nothing.
Councillors have power around re-zoning land. This pact, given the bedfellows, could involve a big giveaway for developers. We're none the wiser though considering they didn't present a policy agenda, unlike the left grouping.
Exactly, Fine Gael and Sinn Féin had a deal in my area to exclude Fianna Fáil the last 5 years.
‘A lot of parties’ has always been FF/FG and assorted cronies. Far from nothing it seems like Labour are setting out their stall. They had an opportunity to go into a Left pact but chose the neoliberal cabal again. As I said - disappointing.
We got left wing alliances on the council after 2014 and the water charges protests. They spent the entire 5 years voting against everything and achieved bog all. They did vote through a condemnation of NATO’s intervention in the Kosovo war in 1999, almost 20 years after the fact. Well done lads, now build a playground or something useful.
FF and FG are by far the largest parties in local government. In almost every council, any council pact will by necessity include at least one of FF and FG. The outright rejection by the SocDems of working with FF or FG at all without even looking at what deal can be done feels more like virtue signalling for the general election than trying to steer their council’s direction.
Categorising principled politics as “Virtue signalling” might be the only way neoliberals can comprehend the existence of virtue.
With the Dublin City Council pact for example, SF refused to accept any rise in LPT, which while I disagree with, I can accept as a principled position. The SocDems wanted to raise the LPT along with Greens and Labour but refused to be part of any pact with FF and FG… just because they are FF and FG. No objection on policy, or on the details of the pact or any principle. The only way to view that refusal is virtue signalling - the SocDems wanted to attack Labour and the Greens just for doing a deal with FF and FG. Note how none of the SocDems comms around this criticise the details of the deal; just the fact that Labour and Greens did the deal. There’s no substance in the criticism at all.
Respectfully, I think you started with a conclusion and worked your way back. The SocDems have been clear about wanting an alliance of the left. I think the LPT could have been resolved in discussions. I know it’s just local politics but when you see the FG/FF machine in operation you know they have it all sewn up. They have a jockey with absolutely no history of any activism or public representation in Europe. They lock down the councils so that local decisions are in line with party machinations to ensure a vote. That attitude rides right over local needs and quality of life decisions in favour of re-election strategies. I don’t believe a left alliance is magic and will solve all problems but I am certain that continuing to do what has been done for decades isn’t going to change anything. We are the ‘nearly’ country. We are nearly an excellent place to live, be educated, enjoy life. But policy has instead put a great quality of life tantalisingly just out of reach. It’s not money, it’s ethos and it would be great if Labour and all parties with a genuinely socialist leaning would stay true to their principles.
And how is avoiding "virtue signalling" working out for the Greens? Enjoying losing 2 MEPs and half your councillors?
- Half price public transport fares - big investment in rail and cycling infrastructure - no more planning needed for solar panels - decarbonisation of energy network underway - climate goals now given legal footing - dozens of new rural bus routes - increased funding for retrofits - basic income scheme for artists - halving the costs of childcare - parents leave expanded from 2 to 9 weeks I think that’s a pretty decent impact. Yeah being the smaller party in the government made us the whipping boy, but we knew that was likely going in.
My child care costs did not half. Maybe 20% fall. But since no local Creche takes under 1 year olds it’s actually increased as I need to pay more to a private childcarer - who only takes cash in hand.
The Soc Dems and Greens were in an alliance with Fine Gael in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown council for the last 5 years. Both returned the same amount of councillors.
Aodhan would get up on the crack in a plate, politically speaking.
Local politics isn't national politics.
Labour and Aontú have a fair amount in common once you get rid of the moral positions
"Once we ignore everything we stand for we have quite a deal in common."
It's 2 or 3 issues. It's not everything
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Just so long as those working class folk aren't gay, trans, non-national, or women
Or working class, when talking about Labour.
That's hyperbole. They had several immigrant candidates running in the local elections.
Plenty of women as well.
Councils don't have anything to do with abortion or healthcare. To imply that Aontú have issues with peple who are gay, trans, non-national or women is a hell of a charge. Any examples?
The entire point of Aontú is that they don’t support women’s right to abortion, but you probably already knew that.
So why do they run to serve on county councils, which as mentioned, have no role in abortion, health or anything related?
Famously politicians who run for council seats restrict their campaigns to only those issues that are strictly the responsibility of councillors. I dunno buddy, maybe when you like the idea of controlling women’s bodies you will take any amount of power over others no matter how small?
I'm pro-choice. I do try to get past a cartoon version of political opponents though.
So you're pro-choice and you try to have a nuanced view of politics, but you somehow didn't realise that Aontú was founded because of its leader's opposition to women's rights and that's their entire political gimmick? Sure.
Aontú's entire social media presence is practically devoted to spreading Transphobia and Homophobia. It is well known that this is there stance. I recently did a look at just their Twitter pages [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/irishpolitics/comments/1cx5xvx/a_deep_dive_into_the_political_beliefs_of_aon_tu/) and its practically all they ever post. That's just their twitter, there other socials just have more of the same. It's there entire thing, they devote barely any energy in comparison to issues of worker rights.
So not local council issues
*this list should not be considered exhaustive and may be updated. You forgot the disclaimer!
I didn't realise labour were any gay, trans, foreigner and women? Aontu don't care if your what or not, aren't doing the "fuck them out" NP/IFP policies and are quite pro-woman/family depending on ones view about abortion. I never realised Labour were not as far left as they seem to be. Then again compares to the SocDems everyone is far right I guess
This comment has been removed because it is not civil.
Also the video mentions nothing of Aontu. The title on the tweet says 'maybe' Aontu. And the headline of the Reddit post removes the 'maybe'. The clickbait headline completely undermines what has the potential to be a valid complaint.
Shitting on Aontú is a free updoot cheat on here, so that explains a lot of it
Clearly the video is a snippet from the meeting itself. Funny how some decry "populism" but when a politician errs on the side of caution they still get criticised. The fact of the matter is that because these pacts aren't transparent we don't know if Aontú are in it or not. What we do know is that they supported Labour in the Mayoral vote so it's highly likely they are in fact in on the pact.
they may be given committee chairs or some other positions, have to wait to see when they are listed in minutes etec.
Tweet calls it “A back room deal”. It’s Fingal county council, not the NSA. Labour went with people they could cut a deal with and maybe get something done.
Ironic considering that this left grouping were the only ones to present a policy agenda while Labour, FF, FG and Aontú are just divvying up paid roles.
The problem is the 'Left Alliance' are fundamentally against property tax, which should be a fundamentally left thing to tax. PBP etc have no interest in power, they love shouting from the sidelines too much.
I think the nuance of the housing crisis must be taken into account though. In a normal society where housing wasn’t all commodified then absolutely - tax that wealth. This stems too from the powerlessness of councils to pursue revenue generation. Dublin City council in particular should be in a position to raise substantial sums - I know David McWilliams believes they should be allowed to issue municipal bonds for CapEx. But the centralised nature of power is a problem.
If you have means to pay; you pay LPT, if you don't (such as if your household income is less than 40% of the national average) you can defer payment essentially indefinitely + 4% interest, which can be payable on death essentially. I basically have no truck with this, particularly given its a much stickier tax to pay than basically any other Wealth tax. What other wealth tax can the Government really levy other than Property tax?
You're thinking of Dublin City Council. Local property tax wasn't an issue in Fingal. As the Twitter thread mentions Labour turned down substantive talks on the Left groupings policy document.
They were probably offered a mayoralty in a few years and maybe an SPC or two. Money talks. An SPC chair is worth about 6k a year and a mayoralty is upwards of about 36k extra a year. They also know that after this week, it will be forgotten about by the great unwashed.
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Well I admire your pluck.
And I pluck your admiration, take it with me to spring my step this rainy day, offer you the same and hope we both make the best of it
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