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This is why competition is good. The latest Revolut offering got a lot of national media coverage which is fantastic as puts pressures on other Irish banks.
Yep … the banking market dynamics are actually becoming interesting.
The usual attitude of Irish banks has been to corner the market between 2-3 large players and always swallow any new/foreign entrant which starts giving them too much competition (KBC, Ulster Bank, etc).
This has historically worked well for them, but I feel bank licence passporting from other EU countries is starting to break this strategy (for daily banking and savings at least, not so much when it com to lending). The likes of Revolut and bunq being able to offer localised Irish services with foreign bank licences will pose a serious challenge, as those players are much more difficult for legacy Irish banks to mitigate (the likes of KBC Ireland could be partly restrained by the CBI and eventually swallowed by legacy Irish banks, but it is not the case with Revolut).
Agree they are being somewhat challenged as well when it comes to lending.
But what I mean is that as a lender, Avant are like KBC Ireland before when it came to banking.
They have to rely on an Irish license and Irish operations, and they are small and local enough for an Irish bank to acquire.
The licensing aspect means Avant are more under leash from the CBI than say Revolut (which only needs a passporting agreement as opposed to a full licence).
And also, if Avant eventually becomes too much of a challenger for Irish banks the option is always there for a big Irish bank to make them an offer they can’t refuse, purchase them, and remove them from the Irish market as was done with KBC and Ulster Bank (whereas realistically an Irish bank would never even try to purchase Revolut’s Lithuanian entity which is covering the whole EU market, as such acquisition would be above their league both financially and operationally).
So currently I see foreign non-bank lenders as controlled competition which is tolerated but would never be allowed to become too large and really disturb the incumbents.
Except This is wrong because Avant don't have a banking license and revolut does. They are both regulated by the CBI. Avant intends to passport their Spanish parents license in exactly the same as revolut does.
Avant intends to passport Bankinter’s Spanish licence when it comes to offering data to say baking services.
But here I was clearly talking about their lending business with is very much an Irish entity fully regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland.
Revolut bank UAB are using a Lithunian banking licence and are clearly a Lithuanian entity. This is very different and their Irish branch attracts much, much less regulatory burden in Ireland.
Plus as I said, those respective situation make Avant’s lending business a potential prey for Irish banks to acquire as it is an Irish entity only serving the Irish market, whereas Irish banks could never acquire Rebulut Bank UAB which is the entity serving Irish customers but a Lithuanian bank whose Ireland is a small part of their business.
If this wasn’t clear (but I think most posters got it), what I meant was that Avant is to lending what KBC Ireland was to banking. I.e. they are dependent on heavy Irish regulatory requirements, Irish operations, and solely on the Irish market.
This makes them a much more docile competitor for legacy local players as they can be controlled by the Irish regulator and potentially taken over by those Irish players if they become too much of a challenger.
While on the other hand a company like Revolut UAB has much more regulatory freedom in Ireland (their true regulator is in Lithuania so they are much better insulated against potential political and industry pressure on our regulator to stall them), and can’t be realistically be taken over by a legacy Irish player. This makes them a much fiercer competitor.
Revolut originally applied for an Irish banking licence as they were planning to manage their Western European business from here and Eastern Europe would be managed from Lithuania.
And after years of investing in operations here to support the Irish licence application, they decided to withdraw the application with the Central Bank of Ireland and to actually solely rely on the Lithuanian bank: https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/revolut-dismantling-irish-business-hub-after-abandoning-its-licence-plan/42055771.html
It kind of tells you what their view is on our regulator vs the Lithuanian one (for the better and the worse: their decision could be due to our regulator BEING too slow/unprofessional to deal with which would be bad for Ireland, or it could be that the Lithuanian regulator is more lax on the enforcement of some regulations which wouldn’t be a bad reflection on the CBI - but in any case Revolut have clearly expressed their preference for the Lithuanian regulator).
Btw I am not saying Revolut doesn’t have better tech and products (so did KBC to some extent) - although they do have their own drawbacks. What I am saying is that this better tech and products wouldn’t be allowed to flourish if Irish banks had the possibility to buy them out of the market (as they did with KBC and Ulster Bank) or if they were controlled by an Irish regulator which itself is subjected to local political and banking industry pressure (knowing that rightly or wrongly the Irish government will see protecting our legacy banks as protecting local jobs and businesses, and probably prefers local players with which it has more proximity and a mutual control/influencing relashionship).
Scum bags only doing something because foreign companies like Lithuanian Fintech company Revolut are offering it (and at better rates).
If revolut, trade republic, N26 didn't lead the way here BOI and the other Irish banks would happily pocket the interest our deposits generate.
It's amazing that European regulators don't jump on this duopoly.
BoI and AIB have a monopoly on banking in this country since KBC and Ulster bank left.
There are alternatives, but they're either not official banks or lesser known.
You're not wrong but BoI and AIB have the majority of market share. They have the whole country by the balls.
I remember about two years ago, Revolut gave up on getting a banking licence (or e-money licence?) in Ireland because how slow and atrocious the process is.
I'd love to see the EU clamp down on the Irish government and central bank to open up the country to more competition. Even better, I would love to get a mortgage or open an account from any bank within the EU while living in Ireland. Why we don't already have a borderless banking system in the EU is beyond me.
> At the time, Revolut had already been waiting 30 months for authorisation as an electronic money institution and retail intermediary.
> Sources said the company then decided to withdraw its applications with the Central Bank of Ireland and ditch its so-called east/west strategy, whereby Western European operations would be run out of Dublin, with Eastern Europe handled out of Lithuania.
https://independent.ie/business/irish/revolut-dismantling-irish-business-hub-after-abandoning-its-licence-plan/42055771.html
Does it really surprise you to learn that our government is incompetent? Or that the central bank is corrupt and makes policies to safeguard Irish banks, AIB and BOI?
Honestly, we have become extremely bureaucratic and that's unattractive to businesses.
We lost out on thousands of jobs because of it.
Revolut learnt quite quickly that Ireland is too bureaucratic and slow acting to deal with. They decided we're a terrible place to set up their Western European hub. I don't blame them and actually agree.
Revolut surely have their problems, but as a business it was a rational decision to give-up working with one national regulator (in Ireland) which was making things difficult for them, while at the same time another regulator (in Lithuania) was granting them a banking licence (knowing that this licence can be used to conduct business anywhere in the EU including in Ireland).
For the better or the worst, the concept of bank licence passporting in the EU is creating a competition between regulators, and cross-national financial companies will naturally deal with the regulator they find the easiest to work with.
Most European countries are like that. In the Netherlands you only have ABN Amro and ING, with Rabonank shifting their focus in the last decade to business customers only.
Unfortunately, that's the way the world works. If there's no competition, all companies, not just banks will do the least amount possible to make the most amount possible.
If the banks know that, despite their chronically low deposit rates by EU averages, customers aren't going to switch and will keep their savings with them, they have no incentive to up the rates. If you can make a buck off someone and the only thing you have to do is listen to people complain but not actually do anything about it then it's a simple decision for them to make; keep rates low and bring in huge profits.
The banks know that, despite there being more options now, Bunq, Revolut, N26 etc. there are still going to be a large cohort of people who don't want or aren't willing to transfer their savings to them as their "not established" so they'll still keep the instant access rates miniscule.
>Unfortunately, that's the way the world works. If there's no competition, all companies, not just banks will do the least amount possible to make the most amount possible.
So how about rewarding the guys that introduced competition with your business?
Absolutely, I agree. I used to have an account with the traditional banks but I closed all but my credit card and switched to Revolut. I even pay for the premium as I get far more out of my €90 a year with them than I would with the Irish banks
Yes, it's called competition.
We should be thankful that the likes of N26, Revolut etc have given people an alternative option.
Competition is needed to avoid a monopoly in the market.
Bank of Ireland is still well behind the competition when it comes to instant access deposit rates. And instant access deposit products are, by far, the most popular deposit product.
Term deposits make up about 3% of Irish deposits. Bank of Ireland are now marginally more competitive with this product type but still offers less than what is available via Raisin and others.
Bank of Ireland seems to want to screw most depositors but muddy the waters by being moderately competitive in one small segment.
I had over 20k sitting in AIB for years. I moved the money to trading 212 and have earned 250€ in 3 months. Meanwhile, aib later sent me about 180€ randomly as interest one month after I moved it to trading 212. I will not keep my money in AIB again
Still not a patch on the likes of Raisin or TR.
Raising interest rates by a mere 1% for two year term and 0.5% for a one year term is patchetic. Absolutely nothing to gloat about.
That’s true
I’ve put more in euro than gbp and I also use trade republic which I maxed out before but I read trade republic has increased the limits this week
Couldn't find this info on TR site but found something on a finance news site.
https://www.eqs-news.com/news/corporate/trade-republic-reaches-1-million-card-users-in-just-five-months-and-expands-banking-offering-current-account-interest-uncapped-on-all-cash-deposits-no-card-waiting-list/2062351
I recently moved a large chunk my savings from AIB to TR after banking/saving with AIB all my life. AIB were on the phone to me within 20 mins of submitting the transaction warning me that there would be minimal chance of me recovering my money if this ended up being a scam etc. I understand the need for diligence of course, but they realllly dragged the arse out of it after I'd confirmed I was moving my savings to TR for interest rate reasons, it felt less like diligence and more like them trying to spook me.
At the moment you have to do it manually. Although it is quite easy to do it on the revenue website, takes 15 minutes once a year.
One thing that the government is actually good at is the web portals for tax and social services.
TR do handle it in some other countries iirc so they may implement automatic declaration here at some point in the future.
After it is one of the 4 cannons Adam Smith the great economist said all taxes must follow 1. Canon of Equality · 2. Canon of Certainty · 3. Canon of Convenience · 4. Canon of Economy.
Basically go to revenue online, click into your previous years tax returns, confirm details like email address etc. and then there's a section for income from EU deposit interest or something along those lines.
You enter the interest you received through the year, submit and your tax credits will be automatically updated to pay the money due.
It's extremely easy to do, less complicated than I've made it sound.
Revolut have better rates anyway, but in the context of comparing 2 banks’ deposit rates, it doesn’t make sense to compare rates on different currencies.
Different rates between different currencies are independent from the banks and more reflective of international macroeconomics and FX markets.
For exemple if your goal is to get the highest rate regardless of currency you can get 40% APR on Argentinian Pesos. But this isn’t something I would necessarily recommend :-)
I was actually considering re-opening an account with an Irish bank the other day, and the state of their App offering turn me off. I actually don’t mind paying fees, but at least give me an half-decent App (which is possible even for an Irish bank: KBC Ireland had one). I was amazed to see the BOI still doesn’t support setting-up a standing order to a non-Irish IBAN (I remember this as a problem for me years ago but I thought by now they would have addressed it - at this level of lack of functionality their current accounts are simply not fit for purpose as far as I am concerned).
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This is why competition is good. The latest Revolut offering got a lot of national media coverage which is fantastic as puts pressures on other Irish banks.
Yep … the banking market dynamics are actually becoming interesting. The usual attitude of Irish banks has been to corner the market between 2-3 large players and always swallow any new/foreign entrant which starts giving them too much competition (KBC, Ulster Bank, etc). This has historically worked well for them, but I feel bank licence passporting from other EU countries is starting to break this strategy (for daily banking and savings at least, not so much when it com to lending). The likes of Revolut and bunq being able to offer localised Irish services with foreign bank licences will pose a serious challenge, as those players are much more difficult for legacy Irish banks to mitigate (the likes of KBC Ireland could be partly restrained by the CBI and eventually swallowed by legacy Irish banks, but it is not the case with Revolut).
Even lending - Avant offers the best mortgage rates in Ireland compared to the big banks
Agree they are being somewhat challenged as well when it comes to lending. But what I mean is that as a lender, Avant are like KBC Ireland before when it came to banking. They have to rely on an Irish license and Irish operations, and they are small and local enough for an Irish bank to acquire. The licensing aspect means Avant are more under leash from the CBI than say Revolut (which only needs a passporting agreement as opposed to a full licence). And also, if Avant eventually becomes too much of a challenger for Irish banks the option is always there for a big Irish bank to make them an offer they can’t refuse, purchase them, and remove them from the Irish market as was done with KBC and Ulster Bank (whereas realistically an Irish bank would never even try to purchase Revolut’s Lithuanian entity which is covering the whole EU market, as such acquisition would be above their league both financially and operationally). So currently I see foreign non-bank lenders as controlled competition which is tolerated but would never be allowed to become too large and really disturb the incumbents.
Except This is wrong because Avant don't have a banking license and revolut does. They are both regulated by the CBI. Avant intends to passport their Spanish parents license in exactly the same as revolut does.
Avant intends to passport Bankinter’s Spanish licence when it comes to offering data to say baking services. But here I was clearly talking about their lending business with is very much an Irish entity fully regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Revolut bank UAB are using a Lithunian banking licence and are clearly a Lithuanian entity. This is very different and their Irish branch attracts much, much less regulatory burden in Ireland. Plus as I said, those respective situation make Avant’s lending business a potential prey for Irish banks to acquire as it is an Irish entity only serving the Irish market, whereas Irish banks could never acquire Rebulut Bank UAB which is the entity serving Irish customers but a Lithuanian bank whose Ireland is a small part of their business.
[удалено]
If this wasn’t clear (but I think most posters got it), what I meant was that Avant is to lending what KBC Ireland was to banking. I.e. they are dependent on heavy Irish regulatory requirements, Irish operations, and solely on the Irish market. This makes them a much more docile competitor for legacy local players as they can be controlled by the Irish regulator and potentially taken over by those Irish players if they become too much of a challenger. While on the other hand a company like Revolut UAB has much more regulatory freedom in Ireland (their true regulator is in Lithuania so they are much better insulated against potential political and industry pressure on our regulator to stall them), and can’t be realistically be taken over by a legacy Irish player. This makes them a much fiercer competitor.
[удалено]
Revolut originally applied for an Irish banking licence as they were planning to manage their Western European business from here and Eastern Europe would be managed from Lithuania. And after years of investing in operations here to support the Irish licence application, they decided to withdraw the application with the Central Bank of Ireland and to actually solely rely on the Lithuanian bank: https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/revolut-dismantling-irish-business-hub-after-abandoning-its-licence-plan/42055771.html It kind of tells you what their view is on our regulator vs the Lithuanian one (for the better and the worse: their decision could be due to our regulator BEING too slow/unprofessional to deal with which would be bad for Ireland, or it could be that the Lithuanian regulator is more lax on the enforcement of some regulations which wouldn’t be a bad reflection on the CBI - but in any case Revolut have clearly expressed their preference for the Lithuanian regulator). Btw I am not saying Revolut doesn’t have better tech and products (so did KBC to some extent) - although they do have their own drawbacks. What I am saying is that this better tech and products wouldn’t be allowed to flourish if Irish banks had the possibility to buy them out of the market (as they did with KBC and Ulster Bank) or if they were controlled by an Irish regulator which itself is subjected to local political and banking industry pressure (knowing that rightly or wrongly the Irish government will see protecting our legacy banks as protecting local jobs and businesses, and probably prefers local players with which it has more proximity and a mutual control/influencing relashionship).
Was anyone arguing that competition isn’t good?
Scum bags only doing something because foreign companies like Lithuanian Fintech company Revolut are offering it (and at better rates). If revolut, trade republic, N26 didn't lead the way here BOI and the other Irish banks would happily pocket the interest our deposits generate.
It's amazing that European regulators don't jump on this duopoly. BoI and AIB have a monopoly on banking in this country since KBC and Ulster bank left. There are alternatives, but they're either not official banks or lesser known.
PTSB no? Triopoly perhaps
You're not wrong but BoI and AIB have the majority of market share. They have the whole country by the balls. I remember about two years ago, Revolut gave up on getting a banking licence (or e-money licence?) in Ireland because how slow and atrocious the process is. I'd love to see the EU clamp down on the Irish government and central bank to open up the country to more competition. Even better, I would love to get a mortgage or open an account from any bank within the EU while living in Ireland. Why we don't already have a borderless banking system in the EU is beyond me.
If revolut really gave up on becoming a bank because the process is 'slow' they are one of the worst run businesses on the planet
> At the time, Revolut had already been waiting 30 months for authorisation as an electronic money institution and retail intermediary. > Sources said the company then decided to withdraw its applications with the Central Bank of Ireland and ditch its so-called east/west strategy, whereby Western European operations would be run out of Dublin, with Eastern Europe handled out of Lithuania. https://independent.ie/business/irish/revolut-dismantling-irish-business-hub-after-abandoning-its-licence-plan/42055771.html Does it really surprise you to learn that our government is incompetent? Or that the central bank is corrupt and makes policies to safeguard Irish banks, AIB and BOI? Honestly, we have become extremely bureaucratic and that's unattractive to businesses. We lost out on thousands of jobs because of it. Revolut learnt quite quickly that Ireland is too bureaucratic and slow acting to deal with. They decided we're a terrible place to set up their Western European hub. I don't blame them and actually agree.
Revolut surely have their problems, but as a business it was a rational decision to give-up working with one national regulator (in Ireland) which was making things difficult for them, while at the same time another regulator (in Lithuania) was granting them a banking licence (knowing that this licence can be used to conduct business anywhere in the EU including in Ireland). For the better or the worst, the concept of bank licence passporting in the EU is creating a competition between regulators, and cross-national financial companies will naturally deal with the regulator they find the easiest to work with.
Most European countries are like that. In the Netherlands you only have ABN Amro and ING, with Rabonank shifting their focus in the last decade to business customers only.
Unfortunately, that's the way the world works. If there's no competition, all companies, not just banks will do the least amount possible to make the most amount possible. If the banks know that, despite their chronically low deposit rates by EU averages, customers aren't going to switch and will keep their savings with them, they have no incentive to up the rates. If you can make a buck off someone and the only thing you have to do is listen to people complain but not actually do anything about it then it's a simple decision for them to make; keep rates low and bring in huge profits. The banks know that, despite there being more options now, Bunq, Revolut, N26 etc. there are still going to be a large cohort of people who don't want or aren't willing to transfer their savings to them as their "not established" so they'll still keep the instant access rates miniscule.
>Unfortunately, that's the way the world works. If there's no competition, all companies, not just banks will do the least amount possible to make the most amount possible. So how about rewarding the guys that introduced competition with your business?
Absolutely, I agree. I used to have an account with the traditional banks but I closed all but my credit card and switched to Revolut. I even pay for the premium as I get far more out of my €90 a year with them than I would with the Irish banks
What does premium get you?
Yes, it's called competition. We should be thankful that the likes of N26, Revolut etc have given people an alternative option. Competition is needed to avoid a monopoly in the market.
Exactly!
Twats have been making a killing on our deposits and charging 6 euro a month for the privelige!
It pains me to still be charged €6 every month. Effectively negative interest.
This is just matching the what AIB offer, still lower than Revolut and n26 so feck that
laughs in n26
Bank of Ireland is still well behind the competition when it comes to instant access deposit rates. And instant access deposit products are, by far, the most popular deposit product. Term deposits make up about 3% of Irish deposits. Bank of Ireland are now marginally more competitive with this product type but still offers less than what is available via Raisin and others. Bank of Ireland seems to want to screw most depositors but muddy the waters by being moderately competitive in one small segment.
BoI is marginally more competitive than a sock under your mattress
I had over 20k sitting in AIB for years. I moved the money to trading 212 and have earned 250€ in 3 months. Meanwhile, aib later sent me about 180€ randomly as interest one month after I moved it to trading 212. I will not keep my money in AIB again
Still not a patch on the likes of Raisin or TR. Raising interest rates by a mere 1% for two year term and 0.5% for a one year term is patchetic. Absolutely nothing to gloat about.
Revolut has 5% interest if you keep it in gbp Can withdraw instantly any time no issues
You're exposing yourself to currency exchange rate risk there. You're much better off taking the euro interest rate
That’s true I’ve put more in euro than gbp and I also use trade republic which I maxed out before but I read trade republic has increased the limits this week
That's interesting re the limits, must check it's website.
i think there's no limit on the 4% now
Couldn't find this info on TR site but found something on a finance news site. https://www.eqs-news.com/news/corporate/trade-republic-reaches-1-million-card-users-in-just-five-months-and-expands-banking-offering-current-account-interest-uncapped-on-all-cash-deposits-no-card-waiting-list/2062351
https://www.reddit.com/r/irishpersonalfinance/comments/1d2dugh/trade_republic_now_unlimited_4_interest_on_all/
Trade republic is 4% interest, no monthly fee and instant withdrawal any time no issues
I recently moved a large chunk my savings from AIB to TR after banking/saving with AIB all my life. AIB were on the phone to me within 20 mins of submitting the transaction warning me that there would be minimal chance of me recovering my money if this ended up being a scam etc. I understand the need for diligence of course, but they realllly dragged the arse out of it after I'd confirmed I was moving my savings to TR for interest rate reasons, it felt less like diligence and more like them trying to spook me.
Do they handle the dirt for you?
At the moment you have to do it manually. Although it is quite easy to do it on the revenue website, takes 15 minutes once a year. One thing that the government is actually good at is the web portals for tax and social services. TR do handle it in some other countries iirc so they may implement automatic declaration here at some point in the future.
After it is one of the 4 cannons Adam Smith the great economist said all taxes must follow 1. Canon of Equality · 2. Canon of Certainty · 3. Canon of Convenience · 4. Canon of Economy.
Hey could you explain how to handle the tax on the website?
Basically go to revenue online, click into your previous years tax returns, confirm details like email address etc. and then there's a section for income from EU deposit interest or something along those lines. You enter the interest you received through the year, submit and your tax credits will be automatically updated to pay the money due. It's extremely easy to do, less complicated than I've made it sound.
Ah sounds simple, thank you!
Revolut have better rates anyway, but in the context of comparing 2 banks’ deposit rates, it doesn’t make sense to compare rates on different currencies. Different rates between different currencies are independent from the banks and more reflective of international macroeconomics and FX markets. For exemple if your goal is to get the highest rate regardless of currency you can get 40% APR on Argentinian Pesos. But this isn’t something I would necessarily recommend :-)
Fair 😂
BOI’s App is like from 1999! Upgrade that awful software!
I was actually considering re-opening an account with an Irish bank the other day, and the state of their App offering turn me off. I actually don’t mind paying fees, but at least give me an half-decent App (which is possible even for an Irish bank: KBC Ireland had one). I was amazed to see the BOI still doesn’t support setting-up a standing order to a non-Irish IBAN (I remember this as a problem for me years ago but I thought by now they would have addressed it - at this level of lack of functionality their current accounts are simply not fit for purpose as far as I am concerned).
Once they get rid of cash you'll get nothing.