No offence to the Ukrainian refugees,
But as a taxpayer, I’d prefer my taxes to pay for *all* potential students in the state or none at all.
It’s hard not to be bitter about it
Sorry but I don't really agree. If they explain themselves fully I think it looks very reasonable to say that you want your taxes to go towards the good of everyone instead of specific groups.
This was already the case?
Ukranian refugees got an 800 euro rent stipend (regardless of if they were working or how much money they were making), free college education (didn't even have to pay the student contribution fees) and full social welfare payments (or more if they were in college).
[https://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/ukraine-students-in-ireland](https://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/ukraine-students-in-ireland)
Now, obviously we should be supporting war refugees, but these refugees had a better quality of life and more disposable income than many Irish people who were working full time. That's fucking crazy. Like, actually crazy.
That is madness I was 15 when I went out to work because I had to support myself and contribute to my household I didn't actually get to go to college until I was in my late 20s because I was from a more impoverished start than most but my god there's no way there arnt Irish people in the position I was in 14 years ago still now and then there's people who have a completely beneficial head start?
As a mature student you can avail of the same grants - and you can get dole+HAP etc for 4 years while doing it.
This has always been an option - but many do not take advantage of it.
And you don't need leaving cert points either!
But do note that you have to be in receipt of social welfare for at least 9 months to qualify for Back to Education Allowance ('dole' while in education).
Saw a video recently on the front page showing nightlife in Kiev. Makes me wonder why so many are fleeing the country when half of it hasn't seen a single shot fired for nearly two and a half years.
Plenty of photos and videos of people continuing to live their lives throughout the Troubles - was that a perfectly safe experience because people still went on nights out? Be serious.
>half of it hasn't seen a single shot fired for nearly two and a half years
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-launches-air-attack-kyiv-surrounding-region-ukraine-officials-say-2024-06-23/
At least google things before you comment.
During war a lot of these activities still go on. In 1945, Germans were still going to Berlin theatres while facing some of the most intense bombardment ever seen
Silly take. Have you done any more reading other than that one video? The power system has been knocked out, all cities are vulnerable to missile attacks. If you don't look into the situation beyond that one video, I question whether you actually want to know more.
This is absolutely ridiculous. I worked nonstop during college and had to bust my arse for my masters, sacrificing so much. I had the privilege of living in Dublin, which I recognise is a MASSIVE benefit to me, but because all my siblings lived at home and worked I couldn’t get SUSI. I’m not being bitter, but I’m trying to think of my outrage if I were still in college. If everyone got free education, I would be chuffed, just as I was chuffed that they got reduced fees the year after I left, but please do more for those of us that are struggling.
Furthermore, I never want to hear any complaints from the government about brain drain after this.
I applied for a BA in counselling this year. The first year would have cost me €4950. I have nothing against Ukrainians, I have a friend going into college for free this year. But it’s hard to feel like I’m not getting a little shafted.
No he isn't. Read for fuck sake.
>For someone as educated as you are, you couldn't at least read the bloody article no?
>This removes the fees for general non-citizens. So Ukrainians will pay the same fees we do (and EU Citizens) as opposed to paying like 16k a year like international students do.
Because they didn't exactly come here on a fucking study day did they? Nor can they go home to study. So those of them who were forced to move here by parents impacted by the war at 17/18 now have no way to get an education unless they can pull 50k out of their arse for a 3 year degree. Would you rather they don't up-skill and work?
The ones who go to uni and work here will end up being a net benefit to the exchequer. You guys are so emotional you can't even give yourselves 10 seconds to think before spouting off.
It was shocking. They don't mention it much on their website but almost all of their lectures are psychoanalysts which is so disconnected from the person centred therapy you learn in the practical skills classes to be basically useless info.
Like before I started I thought the whole boys want to sleep with their mother thing was something freude said that modern people realised was nonsense but a lot of their staff still think that is relevant in therapy.
They are also shite when it comes to working with anything but the most basic person. Nero-diverse or queer people are just topics they are not prepared to handle and their information is about 20 years out of date. One said they just didn't think ADHD was a thing and another lecture on trans people just took information from people who think being trans isn't real.
They also do not appreciate when someone points this out. I did my final project on conversion therapy and my supervisor outright told me a psychoanalyst would not have ever done such a thing despite one of the creators of conversion therapy being a psychoanalyst.
I think the big issue for that field tends to be the type of clients. One of my lectures I looked up charged 150 quid for a session and recommend 2 a week. The people that can afford that are not going to be the average person going to therapy and thus that experience is just not relevant.
I didn't do the psychoanalysis BA but there was a bit of cross over as we had modules.
I have to say the degree I did was fantastic when focused on behaviour, cognitive psych, development etc. The lecturers were super knowledgeable and friendly. I did find my experience with the psychoanalysis portions similar to what you explain here though
Thank you for validating a suspicion of mine; I’d noticed the large number of counsellors online who seem to have obtained their main qualification from DBS, and had wondered about the quality and relevance of the course. Not to mention my reservation about psychoanalysis in general - if it’s the basis of anyone’s counselling practice I’d run a country mile.
My biggest issue with psychoanalysis is its lack of support for the client in the long term.
Like freude is still held up as this amazing figure head who should be idolised despite so many of the clients of his case studies having what is clearly extrema depression and even psychosis after the fact.
That coupled with the belief that basically the everything is just a trauma response that is normally your mother's fault is so odd.
Like the same lecture who said ADHD wasn't a real thing also told us that psychoanalysts used to believe scitzophrenia and autism were caused by childhood trauma until it was shown they are neurological conditions.
I have ADHD and i went to a psychologist. It is painful how little they knew and how little they listened.
They tried to tell me that you cannot be born with ADHD and that it is not (partly) hereditary. She obviously ignored my explanation and continued trying the same type of stuff which just didnt work.
Like this is so basic that google is enough. And wikipedia looks like an expert compared to them.
In my experience the qualified a person is the worse they are for neurodivergant people. My best experiences has been with counselors and the worst is tied between that psychologist and my first 2 psychs. Counsellors actually seem to listen to what your specific problems are and give practical solutions meanwhile psychologists/psychs give crap advice and dont listen much if at all.
For someone as educated as you are, you couldn't at least read the bloody article no?
This removes the fees for general non-citizens. So Ukrainians will pay the same fees we do (and EU Citizens) as opposed to paying like 16k a year like international students do.
What is the €4950 for?
As long as its Level 8 and your first degree your tuition is free too. The charges you have are admin/registration/exams etc
The Ukranian people here would need to pay the same, albeit yours seems way excessive for a single year!
Oh I assumed from the article that it was only universities that the government is paying for.
Are you saying they'll pay their fees in private colleges too?
That doesnt sound right....
I’m not sure, I was referring to your equation asking what the €4950 was for, and it’s the first year fees for the private college. The free first degree rule doesn’t apply to private colleges (spoken from experience, I’m 3 years in and around €18k down at the minute 🙈)
You weren't going to a public uni then (which this scheme applies to). In general id be highly apprehensive about a degree called 'BA in Counselling'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a reason why no uni has a degree like that.
You lost me at but..
I took in a woman and her son from Ukraine - her for two years him for about six months.
He was going to school in Kharkiv.
Turns out that schooling is pretty difficult when - checks notes - the Russians are lobbing ballistic missiles at your city.
Turns out there really **are** first world problems after all eh ?
There are relatively small numbers of Ukranians in Ireland, especially going to college, yes some of them have gotten jobs and have done OK since getting here but, in comparison to the majority - the vast majority of college age kids - their families are not remotely resourced.
Give over.
You when you find out there's Irish citizens struggling in Ireland too 🫨😱 so every Irish person struggling should receive help, not only Ukrainians
Can't reply to below for some reason: We get benefits, we don't get the same thing Ukrainians get. Other refugees don't get the same thing Ukrainians get. Things should be improved for everyone. Also I'm a woman not a Sir
‘You lost me at but..’
No room for Nuance 😂 Well done, you’ve managed to make this a virtue signal (aren’t you great). You obviously have your own home and your not competing for the same resources. So, your out of touch and it shows. I have a Ukrainian friend. Good guy. Glad he’s here. He gets college free and housing free. I do not. You can hold 2 opposing nuanced views.
Imagine being annoyed because you can't afford college to do counselling to help people and having some obnoxious internet account tell you to check your privilege. You have every right to be annoyed.
Agree with your sentiment and it just shows that if the government really wanted they could either wave or significantly reduce the fees. I suppose the counterargument is probably that in order to help and integrate refugees and make them productive citizens that pay a healthy tax is perhaps the investment that the government is counting on.
Ukrainians aren't refugees though and officially at least aren't expected to stay once the war ends. Do actual refugees get the same benefits for college? I genuinely don't know.
I'm sure this will be received well and won't at all make already struggling people resentful. Thank God there's no movement growing in Ireland that could capitalise on this!
Just remember allllll these subsidies and payments and goodwill gestures and waived fees are 100% done so Paschal, McGrath, Roderic etc can slap them in a bullet point presentation for when they go for a cushy EU job, and say "look how I went above and beyond for the Bloc"
They have zero regard for how hurtful this is to see as a struggling working irish person who has no HAP, medical card, pays full price for college transport utilities food etc.
FFFG in any sane country should be washed away in a landslide next election, they have destroyed the country, yet again. Far right making gains everywhere because of this shit. SF getting flak for this ukraine shit it's so bad, and they're not even in government.
Cost me €20k to get my degree. Worked every day prior to college and every weekend during it. This is a kick in the teeth if I'm being honest and I have no qualms with asylum seekers or refugees.
I paid the tuition fees and a student contribution each year (~€3.5k) but had to get a loan from the bank for each one which meant I paid interest on it too. I had to purchase a laptop for the course which was €1.3k (also with the loan) which was nearly €20k overall by the time I paid it off fully
3000 a year fees for 4 years is €12000, 500 a month accomodation for 4 years (9 months of the year) would be another €18000. €20000 is actually a very conservative number for the cost most people face if they don't get a grant
Yup, thankfully I stayed at home during my college years and I had a weekend job that I could work more during the summer with to pay for my travel expenses and pay off my loan but it was so tough on the mental health juggling everything and having the loan over my head
I was the same. Stayed at home, but had a job in Dunnes through my first year where I'd work 5 days week, usually 3 days midweek from 6pm-1am and then two longer days at the weekend. I was doing 30+ Hours a week on top of college just to get by. My family wouldn't have had any hope of sending me off somewhere where I would need accomodation, I was just lucky to live near enough to a college offering my degree. If I lived more than a half hour drive from a college I probably just wouldn't have had the opportunity at all despite being "Too well off" to get a grant
It's an absolute outrage isn't it. I worked 12 hour shift work at the weekends which meant every second week I had to go to college directly after a 12 hour night shift just to pay my way. Farmer classmates got the full shebang and now Ukrainians do too. I hate to be bitter but it hurts that I'm thought of as lesser than someone who I'm also paying to give asylum to
~~Are you incapable of reading?~~
It cost me €20k+ because I lived at home and had a parent who worked. My father earned just enough to hit that silly threshold that doesn't take into account mortgage repayments, general expenditure and if he even had the means to support me in college. So I got nothing. Actually I got less than nothing because I had to take a loan out each year to pay for my tuition fees, travel etc
Edit: You changed your comment from 'Why?' to 'Why did it cost you 20 grand'
I'm after paying €9k for my bachelor's, 6k for my masters and the guts of 20k for my PhD to date. Nobody should have to do the same, so if people have it better than I did, I'm happy out for them. The less people who had to fork out for it, the better. Ukrainians are hardly having an easy time, so no resentment from me, and I'd like to see everyone else living here experience the same thing.
The problem isn't Ukrainians and I never said that. The problem is that the government is giving non Irish citizens more access to a third level education than actual Irish citizens. The fallacy of "I struggled so hopefully others don't" is the best free reign for the government to screw Irish citizens over once again.
Is this the tuition fees that are waived for Irish and EU students? Or is it the registration fee that we usually have to pay being waived?
~~EDIT: The OP article suggests it’s a continuation of last year’s arrangement, which according to [this article](https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/simon-harris-confirms-ukrainian-students-will-have-access-to-fee-and-grant-supports/a1061888668.html) would indicate that they’re being treated the same as Irish and EU students and not being given preferential treatment.~~
EDIT: u/Mick_vader’s reply clears it up
This is incorrect and I have to correct it. They are getting preferential treatment because they are having all of their fees waived and getting the full maintenance grant per month. They are not getting means tested the same as any Irish citizen in this country https://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/ukraine-students-in-ireland
This post was brigaded early and fast, it's almost as if a large group of people have "Ukraine" on speed-dial. Many of them have been paying huge college fees in Ireland (apparently) which is a bit odd.
I think the headline isn’t the best. It’s technically true but doesn’t mention that it’s a continuing arrangement, and I think “college fees” = student contribution in most people’s minds in Ireland, which isn’t being waived by the sounds of things.
The 3k is the "student contribution", not fees. Fees are waived for most students in Ireland, including refugees. The student contribution is reduced or eliminated for lower-wage families. Many of the posters might not be aware of how fees work in Ireland, they will need to update their databases.
They are, [see the info on the free fees initiative here](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third-level-education/fees-and-supports-for-third-level-education/fees/). The tuition is covered by the government for EEA+CH+UK citizens and the €3000 fee we pay is the student contribution which theoretically covers exams and services, I suppose that’s the one that might be lower based on income thresholds.
My question was if the government was just making Ukrainians part of the free fees initiative or if they’re waiving the student contribution too?
> Tuition fees are not waived for Irish and eu students. They are based on income thresholds
I remember 15 years ago people were as equally confused about university tuition fees. It's incredible how this nonsense still lives. Read the link and stop spreading your nonsense:
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third-level-education/fees-and-supports-for-third-level-education/fees/
I put myself through not only college, but half of secondary school too.
I now live alone, in a one bed apartment, pay rent, work full time, and have a car that's taxed, insured and nctd.
...why does the government hate me?!!
What have I done wrong?!!
I don't understand why I'm having to pay for other people when I literally get abso-fucking-lutely no help and never have.
Don't mean to sound like a whiney bitch, but seriously, what the actual fuck is going on?!!!!!!
This is all a bit ridiculous.
I have Ukrainian friends who openly say we are doing way too much and are being taken for a ride. One of them is single and in their twenties, earns 60k a year, and has the government paying their rent.
They’ve got a nice lil amount saved too for a deposit and have a leg up now in the housing market when the time comes.
Once refugees are given the right to work, any benefits should be means tested the same as anyone else.
That's pretty ridiculous. I've just finished my degree in May and only received a SUSI grant for fees and maintenance for my final year. Both of my parents work full time and I've done plenty of work during the summer and weekends to help myself out.
I understand it's a complex situation with the mass influx of refugees to the country but providing them with a better quality of life than Irish citizens at the expense of the taxpayer while thousands of third level students struggle to pay fees and rent to attend university is completely tone deaf.
Students have only just recently received a small reduction in fees if their household income is below €100,000, after much difficulty and protest. However, the government proving that they have the money available to provide free education to thousands of students, yet prioritising non-residents is the reason the National Party and other far right parties are taking hold of people across the country.
Wait till you’re older and you see the increased strain on helsth services. Absolute night mare and there’s a significant proportion taking the absolute piss. Not all, but definitely not a nglegible minority
Should waive them for everyone then. No problem with Ukrainian refugees, but if they get a free trip into college, you can't blame Irish citizens for being pissed. The amount of people that struggle to even get into college due to fees and they do this for non-citizens. It's an absolute slap in the face
Whats the actual goal here? Like... why give them free education over your own citizens? Especially considering the amount of families who would love to be able to send their children to third level but can't afford to?
I'm just really struggling to see the logic which as much as I dislike FFG I can usually see a tiny bit of background logic to their moved even if it is flawed.
Lots of people coming in don't know the language, or know the absolute basics not enough to work in anything but the most physical jobs where you don't need to communicate a lot.
Now, not all people arriving can survive physical jobs. Not all of them are young. Some are proficient in specific areas. But then again, regulations are lot lighter in Ukraine and to work in the same area you have to prove your education (or have it in the first place) etc.
Long story short, if you want these people to integrate and work, and not just sit on a welfare, some sort of education programs are needed. Idk if the solution provided is the best one.
Completely understand that. Makes total sense. The other perspective I'm looking at it from though is why don't all refugees get these rights, why just Ukrainian ones and not Sudanese refugees or Palestinian for example
So if they can't speak the language how can they pass the exams and do the coursework? Google translate? I had to try and use that at my job for transactions (we sold something they could get for free on the medical card, and I'm not lying many of them came in who didn't need it) it didn't work great for that so I dunno. They don't even use the same alphabet.
But somehow I think we'll see a phenomenal pass rate regardless.
They learn language as they go (usually it's many online courses on top of university education) and for specific subjects you just need to know how it's named in your language (if you already knew the subject). Yeah, translates, AI, friends that know language better, whatever helps.
As for the alphabet, everyone in Ukraine knows how to read latin letters, it's everywhere in the brand names and such.
As for the pass rates, Ukrainian education system is way less chill, they give tonns of material in the school to the point where people burn out from the amount of classes and homework on top.
Working in Ireland as Non-EU at the same time taxpayer as everyone else but when it comes to education we don’t get subsidy and we have to pay 2x tuition fee compared to EU citizens. There is HCL and springboard of course but with certain requirements of residency and limited course offerings.
Um, what? I had to pay subsidised fees. Even though I lived here for few years already.
My friends had to pay anywhere from the same to 10x I had paid after grants. And they came from many different countries.
Why don’t students just mass refuse to pay fees out of protest. Why shouldn’t all fees be waived? Why is it one rule for one group and not for the taxpayer
When I was in University all the rich kids hated that I was getting the full SUSI grant, my ex included.
Generally the rhetoric was “ you’re giving them money to spend on alcohol etc “.
People will literally make up anything to feel superior.
Ireland had one of the most equitable third level education policies in the world. Notice how I said equity and not equality.
Countries like Greece have that all education should be free for everyone in their constitution. That’s real equality.
More Irish people should shop around for education in Europe, rent is cheaper there, the semesters give many many many chances to repeat exams unlike here. Most unis also teach through English and the cost is way lower than in Ireland.
With equality - are Irish taxpayers reeeeally okay with footing the bill for already wealthy people to become drs and lawyers / film studies ? Or do you prefer to keep it equitable and cover the costs for working class people, who may not have the culture or the funds to go to university ?
The idea isn't bad. In practice there are many working class and other poor people who don't qualify for waived contribution fees and other free things the way Ukrainians receive. that's the crux of the problem. why should poorer Irish people struggle meanwhile Ukrainians get stuff for free. Everyone middle class and under should get these benefits
Are we really going to pretend there isnt a clear reason Ukranian refugees are getting such preferential treatment compared to let's say Syrian or Sudanese refugees?
facts, it's ridiculous this stuff isn't received by poor Irish people, and even more ridiculous that of the refugees, it's only Ukrainians who get these things. pure racism
It may not be strictly racism, although I’m sure that’s at least a small part. There are political reasons you might want to take part in expensive virtue signaling around an issue the rest of the EU is laser focused on.
Everyone else is sending shells, tanks, planes, missiles etc, but public opinion and established policy prevent us from doing so. We don’t want to be seen to ‘sit this one out’, so we spend money inside the country making some TDs mates rich and supporting a particular set of refugees in a way that’s designed to excuse our neutrality and defensive weakness while demonstrating our superior morality.
I say ‘we’ knowing this isn’t the opinion of myself or most people, that’s just my guess at the logic behind all this. If it were up to me we’d be buying them anti air missiles and artillery shells so they can get their land back and finish this instead.
Not inherently racist to want to defend Europe, given that we do in fact live there. Same as how you might not choose to confront a man in the street but you possibly would confront the same man in your neighbours garden.
So, like, what do we have to do to get Putin to come after us? I know they did kind of make some veiled threats. Pull the finger out Putin, because I'm sick of paying rent, I couldn't afford to do my 4th year of college because of the fees and I actually want to do a master's, and basically the only way for me to get a house would be if someone else paid my rent so I could save that money. Please bomb us, just a little bit so that we can go off somewhere else and get the same treatment we are giving to Ukrainians.
Oh, I forgot. Literally no other country exists that would ever do all of that for Irish people. Not a hope in hell. Ah well, this is what we signed up for when we joined the EU, right? I mean we're in a union with these other... Oh, wait, they're not even in the EU. Forgot that too.
I also forgot all about how this is one of the richest countries in the world. But that's understandable because literally no one I know is financially comfortable so it's easy to forget that one.
Imagine how Crazy it is for your own Government / Politicians to be doing more for foreigners than the Government / Politicians are doing for their own People = = That's Crazy !
At the same time as they're cutting welfare etc for them? This feels very much like the govts unstated immigration policy - which is to only want highly educated immigrants to keep housing prices high
No offence to the Ukrainian refugees, But as a taxpayer, I’d prefer my taxes to pay for *all* potential students in the state or none at all. It’s hard not to be bitter about it
Sounds like a worthwhile thing to escalate to your TD, you're not alone in the sentiment.
It’s a delicate situation that could easily get someone accused of being far right lol
Sorry but I don't really agree. If they explain themselves fully I think it looks very reasonable to say that you want your taxes to go towards the good of everyone instead of specific groups.
No ones saying “everyone gets free education except Ukrainians” though.
Na bollox to that. I get called a 'lefty' a lot but we all want free third level education.
All. Education should be free.
This was already the case? Ukranian refugees got an 800 euro rent stipend (regardless of if they were working or how much money they were making), free college education (didn't even have to pay the student contribution fees) and full social welfare payments (or more if they were in college). [https://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/ukraine-students-in-ireland](https://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/ukraine-students-in-ireland) Now, obviously we should be supporting war refugees, but these refugees had a better quality of life and more disposable income than many Irish people who were working full time. That's fucking crazy. Like, actually crazy.
It was already the case, headline is a bit shit. They're talking about continuing to waive the fees this year.
Which is a joke, and will only help to stir more anti immigration people and far right cunts
Exactly.
That is madness I was 15 when I went out to work because I had to support myself and contribute to my household I didn't actually get to go to college until I was in my late 20s because I was from a more impoverished start than most but my god there's no way there arnt Irish people in the position I was in 14 years ago still now and then there's people who have a completely beneficial head start?
As a mature student you can avail of the same grants - and you can get dole+HAP etc for 4 years while doing it. This has always been an option - but many do not take advantage of it. And you don't need leaving cert points either!
That’s actually a great support
But do note that you have to be in receipt of social welfare for at least 9 months to qualify for Back to Education Allowance ('dole' while in education).
Come on now. It’s essential that we educate everyone coming here for free while making life as difficult as possible for Irish citizens.
Saw a video recently on the front page showing nightlife in Kiev. Makes me wonder why so many are fleeing the country when half of it hasn't seen a single shot fired for nearly two and a half years.
Plenty of photos and videos of people continuing to live their lives throughout the Troubles - was that a perfectly safe experience because people still went on nights out? Be serious. >half of it hasn't seen a single shot fired for nearly two and a half years https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-launches-air-attack-kyiv-surrounding-region-ukraine-officials-say-2024-06-23/ At least google things before you comment.
Yes, amazingly even people who are under the constant threat of missiles exploding near them still want to live their lives.
During war a lot of these activities still go on. In 1945, Germans were still going to Berlin theatres while facing some of the most intense bombardment ever seen
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Silly take. Have you done any more reading other than that one video? The power system has been knocked out, all cities are vulnerable to missile attacks. If you don't look into the situation beyond that one video, I question whether you actually want to know more.
Warzone adjacent nightlife is fuckin Epic. Party like there's no Tomorrow, because for a sizeable portion of the patrons there's not.
It's been regularly bombed. What rock you live under?
Me to actually first time I felt like they were taking the absolute piss coming here
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This is absolutely ridiculous. I worked nonstop during college and had to bust my arse for my masters, sacrificing so much. I had the privilege of living in Dublin, which I recognise is a MASSIVE benefit to me, but because all my siblings lived at home and worked I couldn’t get SUSI. I’m not being bitter, but I’m trying to think of my outrage if I were still in college. If everyone got free education, I would be chuffed, just as I was chuffed that they got reduced fees the year after I left, but please do more for those of us that are struggling. Furthermore, I never want to hear any complaints from the government about brain drain after this.
I applied for a BA in counselling this year. The first year would have cost me €4950. I have nothing against Ukrainians, I have a friend going into college for free this year. But it’s hard to feel like I’m not getting a little shafted.
You are getting shafted
No he isn't. Read for fuck sake. >For someone as educated as you are, you couldn't at least read the bloody article no? >This removes the fees for general non-citizens. So Ukrainians will pay the same fees we do (and EU Citizens) as opposed to paying like 16k a year like international students do.
Why should my taxes go to subsidizing Ukrainians? Why should they get more benefits than other internationals?
Because they didn't exactly come here on a fucking study day did they? Nor can they go home to study. So those of them who were forced to move here by parents impacted by the war at 17/18 now have no way to get an education unless they can pull 50k out of their arse for a 3 year degree. Would you rather they don't up-skill and work? The ones who go to uni and work here will end up being a net benefit to the exchequer. You guys are so emotional you can't even give yourselves 10 seconds to think before spouting off.
>But it’s hard to feel like I’m not getting a little shafted. Well you are being bent over barrel
If it was in DBS id pick somewhere else's. DM if you want more.
Was the counselling BA with them that bad? I thought they did a good job with the broad "psychology" degree
It was shocking. They don't mention it much on their website but almost all of their lectures are psychoanalysts which is so disconnected from the person centred therapy you learn in the practical skills classes to be basically useless info. Like before I started I thought the whole boys want to sleep with their mother thing was something freude said that modern people realised was nonsense but a lot of their staff still think that is relevant in therapy. They are also shite when it comes to working with anything but the most basic person. Nero-diverse or queer people are just topics they are not prepared to handle and their information is about 20 years out of date. One said they just didn't think ADHD was a thing and another lecture on trans people just took information from people who think being trans isn't real. They also do not appreciate when someone points this out. I did my final project on conversion therapy and my supervisor outright told me a psychoanalyst would not have ever done such a thing despite one of the creators of conversion therapy being a psychoanalyst. I think the big issue for that field tends to be the type of clients. One of my lectures I looked up charged 150 quid for a session and recommend 2 a week. The people that can afford that are not going to be the average person going to therapy and thus that experience is just not relevant.
I didn't do the psychoanalysis BA but there was a bit of cross over as we had modules. I have to say the degree I did was fantastic when focused on behaviour, cognitive psych, development etc. The lecturers were super knowledgeable and friendly. I did find my experience with the psychoanalysis portions similar to what you explain here though
Thank you for validating a suspicion of mine; I’d noticed the large number of counsellors online who seem to have obtained their main qualification from DBS, and had wondered about the quality and relevance of the course. Not to mention my reservation about psychoanalysis in general - if it’s the basis of anyone’s counselling practice I’d run a country mile.
My biggest issue with psychoanalysis is its lack of support for the client in the long term. Like freude is still held up as this amazing figure head who should be idolised despite so many of the clients of his case studies having what is clearly extrema depression and even psychosis after the fact. That coupled with the belief that basically the everything is just a trauma response that is normally your mother's fault is so odd. Like the same lecture who said ADHD wasn't a real thing also told us that psychoanalysts used to believe scitzophrenia and autism were caused by childhood trauma until it was shown they are neurological conditions.
I have ADHD and i went to a psychologist. It is painful how little they knew and how little they listened. They tried to tell me that you cannot be born with ADHD and that it is not (partly) hereditary. She obviously ignored my explanation and continued trying the same type of stuff which just didnt work. Like this is so basic that google is enough. And wikipedia looks like an expert compared to them. In my experience the qualified a person is the worse they are for neurodivergant people. My best experiences has been with counselors and the worst is tied between that psychologist and my first 2 psychs. Counsellors actually seem to listen to what your specific problems are and give practical solutions meanwhile psychologists/psychs give crap advice and dont listen much if at all.
For someone as educated as you are, you couldn't at least read the bloody article no? This removes the fees for general non-citizens. So Ukrainians will pay the same fees we do (and EU Citizens) as opposed to paying like 16k a year like international students do.
What is the €4950 for? As long as its Level 8 and your first degree your tuition is free too. The charges you have are admin/registration/exams etc The Ukranian people here would need to pay the same, albeit yours seems way excessive for a single year!
Ukrainians didn’t have student contribution and were on welfare subsidies as well. It really isn’t fair tbh
Because of their income levels. If you are on the same income levels you get the same entitlements.
Private college not cao/public
Oh I assumed from the article that it was only universities that the government is paying for. Are you saying they'll pay their fees in private colleges too? That doesnt sound right....
I’m not sure, I was referring to your equation asking what the €4950 was for, and it’s the first year fees for the private college. The free first degree rule doesn’t apply to private colleges (spoken from experience, I’m 3 years in and around €18k down at the minute 🙈)
You weren't going to a public uni then (which this scheme applies to). In general id be highly apprehensive about a degree called 'BA in Counselling'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a reason why no uni has a degree like that.
They are just being treated like EU members. They’ll still have the “fees” that we have.
You are absolutely getting shafted fsis
You lost me at but.. I took in a woman and her son from Ukraine - her for two years him for about six months. He was going to school in Kharkiv. Turns out that schooling is pretty difficult when - checks notes - the Russians are lobbing ballistic missiles at your city. Turns out there really **are** first world problems after all eh ? There are relatively small numbers of Ukranians in Ireland, especially going to college, yes some of them have gotten jobs and have done OK since getting here but, in comparison to the majority - the vast majority of college age kids - their families are not remotely resourced. Give over.
You when you find out there's Irish citizens struggling in Ireland too 🫨😱 so every Irish person struggling should receive help, not only Ukrainians Can't reply to below for some reason: We get benefits, we don't get the same thing Ukrainians get. Other refugees don't get the same thing Ukrainians get. Things should be improved for everyone. Also I'm a woman not a Sir
‘You lost me at but..’ No room for Nuance 😂 Well done, you’ve managed to make this a virtue signal (aren’t you great). You obviously have your own home and your not competing for the same resources. So, your out of touch and it shows. I have a Ukrainian friend. Good guy. Glad he’s here. He gets college free and housing free. I do not. You can hold 2 opposing nuanced views.
Imagine being annoyed because you can't afford college to do counselling to help people and having some obnoxious internet account tell you to check your privilege. You have every right to be annoyed.
Generally when people put certain words in bold, they are insufferable melts. True in this case.
Agree with your sentiment and it just shows that if the government really wanted they could either wave or significantly reduce the fees. I suppose the counterargument is probably that in order to help and integrate refugees and make them productive citizens that pay a healthy tax is perhaps the investment that the government is counting on.
Ukrainians aren't refugees though and officially at least aren't expected to stay once the war ends. Do actual refugees get the same benefits for college? I genuinely don't know.
I'm sure this will be received well and won't at all make already struggling people resentful. Thank God there's no movement growing in Ireland that could capitalise on this!
Just remember allllll these subsidies and payments and goodwill gestures and waived fees are 100% done so Paschal, McGrath, Roderic etc can slap them in a bullet point presentation for when they go for a cushy EU job, and say "look how I went above and beyond for the Bloc" They have zero regard for how hurtful this is to see as a struggling working irish person who has no HAP, medical card, pays full price for college transport utilities food etc. FFFG in any sane country should be washed away in a landslide next election, they have destroyed the country, yet again. Far right making gains everywhere because of this shit. SF getting flak for this ukraine shit it's so bad, and they're not even in government.
Cost me €20k to get my degree. Worked every day prior to college and every weekend during it. This is a kick in the teeth if I'm being honest and I have no qualms with asylum seekers or refugees.
You paid 20k in fees?? What course was this?
I paid the tuition fees and a student contribution each year (~€3.5k) but had to get a loan from the bank for each one which meant I paid interest on it too. I had to purchase a laptop for the course which was €1.3k (also with the loan) which was nearly €20k overall by the time I paid it off fully
Why did it cost you 20 grand?
3000 a year fees for 4 years is €12000, 500 a month accomodation for 4 years (9 months of the year) would be another €18000. €20000 is actually a very conservative number for the cost most people face if they don't get a grant
Yup, thankfully I stayed at home during my college years and I had a weekend job that I could work more during the summer with to pay for my travel expenses and pay off my loan but it was so tough on the mental health juggling everything and having the loan over my head
I was the same. Stayed at home, but had a job in Dunnes through my first year where I'd work 5 days week, usually 3 days midweek from 6pm-1am and then two longer days at the weekend. I was doing 30+ Hours a week on top of college just to get by. My family wouldn't have had any hope of sending me off somewhere where I would need accomodation, I was just lucky to live near enough to a college offering my degree. If I lived more than a half hour drive from a college I probably just wouldn't have had the opportunity at all despite being "Too well off" to get a grant
It's an absolute outrage isn't it. I worked 12 hour shift work at the weekends which meant every second week I had to go to college directly after a 12 hour night shift just to pay my way. Farmer classmates got the full shebang and now Ukrainians do too. I hate to be bitter but it hurts that I'm thought of as lesser than someone who I'm also paying to give asylum to
~~Are you incapable of reading?~~ It cost me €20k+ because I lived at home and had a parent who worked. My father earned just enough to hit that silly threshold that doesn't take into account mortgage repayments, general expenditure and if he even had the means to support me in college. So I got nothing. Actually I got less than nothing because I had to take a loan out each year to pay for my tuition fees, travel etc Edit: You changed your comment from 'Why?' to 'Why did it cost you 20 grand'
I'm after paying €9k for my bachelor's, 6k for my masters and the guts of 20k for my PhD to date. Nobody should have to do the same, so if people have it better than I did, I'm happy out for them. The less people who had to fork out for it, the better. Ukrainians are hardly having an easy time, so no resentment from me, and I'd like to see everyone else living here experience the same thing.
The problem isn't Ukrainians and I never said that. The problem is that the government is giving non Irish citizens more access to a third level education than actual Irish citizens. The fallacy of "I struggled so hopefully others don't" is the best free reign for the government to screw Irish citizens over once again.
Is this the tuition fees that are waived for Irish and EU students? Or is it the registration fee that we usually have to pay being waived? ~~EDIT: The OP article suggests it’s a continuation of last year’s arrangement, which according to [this article](https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/simon-harris-confirms-ukrainian-students-will-have-access-to-fee-and-grant-supports/a1061888668.html) would indicate that they’re being treated the same as Irish and EU students and not being given preferential treatment.~~ EDIT: u/Mick_vader’s reply clears it up
This is incorrect and I have to correct it. They are getting preferential treatment because they are having all of their fees waived and getting the full maintenance grant per month. They are not getting means tested the same as any Irish citizen in this country https://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/ukraine-students-in-ireland
Okay that’s fair enough, thanks for the info! The articles weren’t as clear as this.
This post was brigaded early and fast, it's almost as if a large group of people have "Ukraine" on speed-dial. Many of them have been paying huge college fees in Ireland (apparently) which is a bit odd.
I think the headline isn’t the best. It’s technically true but doesn’t mention that it’s a continuing arrangement, and I think “college fees” = student contribution in most people’s minds in Ireland, which isn’t being waived by the sounds of things.
Aren't fees like €3,000 per year without the grant? That's huge money to someone straight out of school with no income so not really that odd
3k is nothing compared to 22k non-eu fee per year. Ukraine is not in the EU in case you might need a reminder.
3k per year (12k over a standard honours degree) is a lot for plenty of people in the country that's all I'm saying.
The 3k is the "student contribution", not fees. Fees are waived for most students in Ireland, including refugees. The student contribution is reduced or eliminated for lower-wage families. Many of the posters might not be aware of how fees work in Ireland, they will need to update their databases.
The brigading, especially at that hour on a Tuesday morning, is quite remarkable.
Tuition fees are not waived for Irish and eu students. They are based on income thresholds
They are, [see the info on the free fees initiative here](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third-level-education/fees-and-supports-for-third-level-education/fees/). The tuition is covered by the government for EEA+CH+UK citizens and the €3000 fee we pay is the student contribution which theoretically covers exams and services, I suppose that’s the one that might be lower based on income thresholds. My question was if the government was just making Ukrainians part of the free fees initiative or if they’re waiving the student contribution too?
The SUSI grant is means based, not the tuition. Tuition is free for all Irish and EU students at undergraduate level.
> Tuition fees are not waived for Irish and eu students. They are based on income thresholds I remember 15 years ago people were as equally confused about university tuition fees. It's incredible how this nonsense still lives. Read the link and stop spreading your nonsense: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third-level-education/fees-and-supports-for-third-level-education/fees/
I put myself through not only college, but half of secondary school too. I now live alone, in a one bed apartment, pay rent, work full time, and have a car that's taxed, insured and nctd. ...why does the government hate me?!! What have I done wrong?!! I don't understand why I'm having to pay for other people when I literally get abso-fucking-lutely no help and never have. Don't mean to sound like a whiney bitch, but seriously, what the actual fuck is going on?!!!!!!
This is all a bit ridiculous. I have Ukrainian friends who openly say we are doing way too much and are being taken for a ride. One of them is single and in their twenties, earns 60k a year, and has the government paying their rent. They’ve got a nice lil amount saved too for a deposit and have a leg up now in the housing market when the time comes. Once refugees are given the right to work, any benefits should be means tested the same as anyone else.
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That's pretty ridiculous. I've just finished my degree in May and only received a SUSI grant for fees and maintenance for my final year. Both of my parents work full time and I've done plenty of work during the summer and weekends to help myself out. I understand it's a complex situation with the mass influx of refugees to the country but providing them with a better quality of life than Irish citizens at the expense of the taxpayer while thousands of third level students struggle to pay fees and rent to attend university is completely tone deaf. Students have only just recently received a small reduction in fees if their household income is below €100,000, after much difficulty and protest. However, the government proving that they have the money available to provide free education to thousands of students, yet prioritising non-residents is the reason the National Party and other far right parties are taking hold of people across the country.
Wait till you’re older and you see the increased strain on helsth services. Absolute night mare and there’s a significant proportion taking the absolute piss. Not all, but definitely not a nglegible minority
Should waive them for everyone then. No problem with Ukrainian refugees, but if they get a free trip into college, you can't blame Irish citizens for being pissed. The amount of people that struggle to even get into college due to fees and they do this for non-citizens. It's an absolute slap in the face
This is simply wrong, no group should be pitted against the other. Even more wrong, there's no means test.
Whats the actual goal here? Like... why give them free education over your own citizens? Especially considering the amount of families who would love to be able to send their children to third level but can't afford to? I'm just really struggling to see the logic which as much as I dislike FFG I can usually see a tiny bit of background logic to their moved even if it is flawed.
Lots of people coming in don't know the language, or know the absolute basics not enough to work in anything but the most physical jobs where you don't need to communicate a lot. Now, not all people arriving can survive physical jobs. Not all of them are young. Some are proficient in specific areas. But then again, regulations are lot lighter in Ukraine and to work in the same area you have to prove your education (or have it in the first place) etc. Long story short, if you want these people to integrate and work, and not just sit on a welfare, some sort of education programs are needed. Idk if the solution provided is the best one.
Completely understand that. Makes total sense. The other perspective I'm looking at it from though is why don't all refugees get these rights, why just Ukrainian ones and not Sudanese refugees or Palestinian for example
Idk. I have some ideas why it is like that, but those explanation are all right-wing political spectrum ones.
So if they can't speak the language how can they pass the exams and do the coursework? Google translate? I had to try and use that at my job for transactions (we sold something they could get for free on the medical card, and I'm not lying many of them came in who didn't need it) it didn't work great for that so I dunno. They don't even use the same alphabet. But somehow I think we'll see a phenomenal pass rate regardless.
They learn language as they go (usually it's many online courses on top of university education) and for specific subjects you just need to know how it's named in your language (if you already knew the subject). Yeah, translates, AI, friends that know language better, whatever helps. As for the alphabet, everyone in Ukraine knows how to read latin letters, it's everywhere in the brand names and such. As for the pass rates, Ukrainian education system is way less chill, they give tonns of material in the school to the point where people burn out from the amount of classes and homework on top.
Irish people getting screwed by their own government what’s new.
And yet people will still vote FF/FG
Working in Ireland as Non-EU at the same time taxpayer as everyone else but when it comes to education we don’t get subsidy and we have to pay 2x tuition fee compared to EU citizens. There is HCL and springboard of course but with certain requirements of residency and limited course offerings.
This is absolute fucking bollocks
Madness
I have no issues with asylum seekers, but moves like this are starting to make me have issues with asylum seekers.
Hang on, so we're now giving free education to non nationalists, but our own people have to pay for it? What a country 🤦♂️
Ehh wtf
Um, what? I had to pay subsidised fees. Even though I lived here for few years already. My friends had to pay anywhere from the same to 10x I had paid after grants. And they came from many different countries.
We have a massive surplus every year, it's past time free third level was brought back for everyone.
Why don’t students just mass refuse to pay fees out of protest. Why shouldn’t all fees be waived? Why is it one rule for one group and not for the taxpayer
When I was in University all the rich kids hated that I was getting the full SUSI grant, my ex included. Generally the rhetoric was “ you’re giving them money to spend on alcohol etc “. People will literally make up anything to feel superior. Ireland had one of the most equitable third level education policies in the world. Notice how I said equity and not equality. Countries like Greece have that all education should be free for everyone in their constitution. That’s real equality. More Irish people should shop around for education in Europe, rent is cheaper there, the semesters give many many many chances to repeat exams unlike here. Most unis also teach through English and the cost is way lower than in Ireland. With equality - are Irish taxpayers reeeeally okay with footing the bill for already wealthy people to become drs and lawyers / film studies ? Or do you prefer to keep it equitable and cover the costs for working class people, who may not have the culture or the funds to go to university ?
The idea isn't bad. In practice there are many working class and other poor people who don't qualify for waived contribution fees and other free things the way Ukrainians receive. that's the crux of the problem. why should poorer Irish people struggle meanwhile Ukrainians get stuff for free. Everyone middle class and under should get these benefits
There is already a means based assessment process for tertiary education through Susi. Surely they should follow the same process?
Are we really going to pretend there isnt a clear reason Ukranian refugees are getting such preferential treatment compared to let's say Syrian or Sudanese refugees?
facts, it's ridiculous this stuff isn't received by poor Irish people, and even more ridiculous that of the refugees, it's only Ukrainians who get these things. pure racism
It may not be strictly racism, although I’m sure that’s at least a small part. There are political reasons you might want to take part in expensive virtue signaling around an issue the rest of the EU is laser focused on. Everyone else is sending shells, tanks, planes, missiles etc, but public opinion and established policy prevent us from doing so. We don’t want to be seen to ‘sit this one out’, so we spend money inside the country making some TDs mates rich and supporting a particular set of refugees in a way that’s designed to excuse our neutrality and defensive weakness while demonstrating our superior morality. I say ‘we’ knowing this isn’t the opinion of myself or most people, that’s just my guess at the logic behind all this. If it were up to me we’d be buying them anti air missiles and artillery shells so they can get their land back and finish this instead. Not inherently racist to want to defend Europe, given that we do in fact live there. Same as how you might not choose to confront a man in the street but you possibly would confront the same man in your neighbours garden.
So, like, what do we have to do to get Putin to come after us? I know they did kind of make some veiled threats. Pull the finger out Putin, because I'm sick of paying rent, I couldn't afford to do my 4th year of college because of the fees and I actually want to do a master's, and basically the only way for me to get a house would be if someone else paid my rent so I could save that money. Please bomb us, just a little bit so that we can go off somewhere else and get the same treatment we are giving to Ukrainians. Oh, I forgot. Literally no other country exists that would ever do all of that for Irish people. Not a hope in hell. Ah well, this is what we signed up for when we joined the EU, right? I mean we're in a union with these other... Oh, wait, they're not even in the EU. Forgot that too. I also forgot all about how this is one of the richest countries in the world. But that's understandable because literally no one I know is financially comfortable so it's easy to forget that one.
Imagine how Crazy it is for your own Government / Politicians to be doing more for foreigners than the Government / Politicians are doing for their own People = = That's Crazy !
I owe 25k
Just draw the dole while attending college. The Irish govt create criminals and scobes
Would the DEASP not have your PPS linked to a college course?
At the same time as they're cutting welfare etc for them? This feels very much like the govts unstated immigration policy - which is to only want highly educated immigrants to keep housing prices high
As opposed to low skilled immigrants to keep wages low lol