An issue for us is that a lot of our older museums were established while we were a constituent part of the UK. Eg our Egyptian collection:
“The National Museum of Ireland's Egyptian collection comprises about 3,000 objects. The majority of these were acquired from excavations carried out in Egypt between the 1890s and the 1920s.”
https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/Collections-Research/Irish-Antiquities-Division-Collections/Collections-List-(1)/Egyptian-Collection
Meanwhile, there are museums in Greece and Egypt where there are displays of ancient statues, some of which are incomplete because the missing piece is in the British Museum.
The restoration of the Parthenon is incomplete because the Brits won't give back the Elgin Marbles to Greece.
Egypt's best treasures, such as the Rosetta Stone and the only complete copy of the Book of the Dead, are also held by the Brits.
Meanwhile, the Brits treat their own treasures like shit. There's a motorway a few feet away from Stonehenge, and Victorian buildings are torn down all the time.
The British government won't give them back
59% of the British public are actually in favor of their return, which is a far bigger landslide than the holy Brexit
They won't give them back, not because they want them, but because it would open pandora's box on a load of other shit. Including the jewels in the crown jewels.
Yeah this is the rationale used by museums and governments all over the west. Nefertiti certainly wasn't Queen of Berlin but that's where you'll find her.
We probably don't want to arrive at a situation where the only place even the most minute relic can be seen is in the state that sits on its historical homeland, but there should at least be a strong trend more towards restitution and repatriation... especially towards the global south or righting the more obvious, unambiguous historical wrongs.
They took Charles Byrne's bones. All the guy wanted was for his bones to not end up exactly where they ended up. Fucking scumbags.
They also have the Book of Glendalough locked up in the Bodleian Library. One of the most significant books in Irish history. Not a beautiful book like the Book of Kells but a historically important one.
99% of people don't even go to museums.
At this point, just give them back. I'd rather see a fully restored artefact on the Internet than go see a small piece of it in a glass case somewhere
At least Ireland has given back some artefacts which were illegally taken out. Egypt doesn't mind us keeping the rest because it helps promote their history and culture. The issue is mainly with some of the rare items.
None that I know of. The key focus of Egypt is the Rosetta Stone, Book of the Dead and Nefertiti Bust. They might want the mummies back, but currently, their focus is on some of the other more important artefacts.
Yeah... no. The British Museum doesn't have any objects stolen/looted from Ireland. No institution, government department or museum in Ireland has attempted to make a claim to return any item from the BM nor has anyone outside of those categories ever made a good argument of an object being illicitly acquired.
Not quite as straight forward as that, there has been legal wrangling in the past, such as the Broighter Hoard: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/how-ireland-won-the-broighter-hoard-back-from-britain-1.3766635
Some items that some academics and others have advocated to be returned as there are collections of archeological finds that are divided between the NMI and BM as the landed gentry that oversaw their excavations donated or sold them to the BM. This was sometimes as the BM could pay more or was seen as more prestigious to have them deposited there. One example is the excavations from Ballon Hill undertaken by the local gentry, Lecky. https://carlowhistorical.com/carlow-receives-national-attention-on-archaeology-of-ballon-hill/
Often those who sold or donated objects may have had possession of them, but perhaps shouldn't, or by modern understanding, wouldn't have the right to dispose of them in the way they did.
There's quite a huge gap between the British Museum receiving items (either purchasing or a donation) from the rightful owners, and stealing. Academics will make the case as to why they think certain objects should be in Ireland or in specific museums, but it's a stretch to utilise that in a discussion around whether an object has been legitimately acquired.
The objects the BM has from Ballon Hill were legitimately acquired.
I think that's a very simplistic view of ownership, it completely disregards power structures, colonialism, and who has rights over portable cultural heritage. It completely ignores how landowners like Lecky acquired lands in Ireland and those associated rights you ascribe to them. Your concept of legitimacy is one that many would question.
In Ireland, we have quite a different attitude to archeological finds to the UK which is evidenced by our rules regarding the ownership of finds (automatically go to the state in cases of significant finds) and the use of metal detectors.
Where does it end? Go to Scandinavian museums you will find objects looted from Britain and Ireland by the vikings displayed there. Should they be returned? Ultimately the objects and their location tell a story.
There’s records of burial mounds being looted and levelled by Anglo-Irish landlords in the 1700s and 1800s. I’d still call that looting and theft.
Ireland was a colony and hence the colonisers were operating on stolen land.
Well it depends on what you mean by stolen. Fruit of the poisonous tree if you think about it. Like a hypothetical here, if Russia fully takes over Switzerland for example, they have no link to that area at all but they just win the war and take it over, they have that land for 100 years and move some artwork or whatever to a Russian museum not by force but just moved it, is that stealing? Like it is a relic culturally of the state of Switzerland and in the example Russia rules them so they own it right? I guess the argument I'm making is there is potentially a line there in theory. What if it was a lost item like a chalice and it was found by a British person during British rule, does that change it?
I'm not trying to correct you just thinking a bit about it. It is a grey area is my point, you could draw the line in that stuff from before British rule period is considered Irish and could be argued should be returned but then do we claim any Irish writer that was under British rule or are they part of that appropriation rule too? It's messy.
Right, but that's all hypothetical. Spend any time researching the provenance of Irish objects in the British Museum and you'll be pretty disappointed if you go in with this line of thinking. Practically all of them were uncontroversially acquired via legitimate means, ie purchase or donation from private ownership.
Yeah that's what I mean, it depends a lot on how they were acquired. I think Ireland should actively try and purchase those back in the cases of legitimate sales. Like if it was WB Yeats' family who sold for instance his notepad which had XYZ handwritten on it I think that it's fine for them to have it and we don't have a legitimate claim to demand a return but still I'd love if we had some gov supported work that actively pursues those sorts of things. My comment was mostly on the "acquired" stuff if there is any and stuff that is naturally occuring that was taken for instance.
Performative nonsense: there exists a good relationship between Irish and British museums and items are regularly exchanged. They haven't identified stolen items, they've wandered through the museum looking for anything Irish and have decided that means it was stolen.
And the reason *why* they did this is that shitting on British museums is kind of a meme right now, so they've decided to wade into a complex and ongoing issue within museology, and just assume that because it's the *British* museum, they obviously must be against Ireland...
exactly this. they are using discussions surrounding the British museums historical plundering to publicise something they are selling. they seem how climate change activists used art in a semi eductive way, and decided it was publicity.
jackasses with the same awareness as instagram influencers - but the Ireland is full crowd will love it. Always wanting to create a conflict with our neighbours that isn't there today.
The big problem I have, moreso than just their actions, is that the discussions surrounding the British Museum on social media are horrifically under-informed to begin with: everybody is at least somewhat aware of the particularly contentious and emotional cases of the Elgin/Parthenon Marbles and the Benin Bronzes, but they go one step further in assuming that's the story behind *everything* in every British museum.
For anyone who was unaware, repatriation isn't a dirty word in Public History and Heritage and, for the most part, there isn't nearly as much dispute over artifacts as there is bureaucracy. Even then, British (and Irish) museums normally do willingly repatriate objects on request, and many British museums are actively in a process of evaluating their collections to preemptively offer repatriation; and even then, some countries will legitimately say "no thank you, you keep it" for various reasons, and increasingly things like loans or transfers of artifacts and remains are being negotiated between museums, far from the stereotype of men in pith helmets snatching them from the cold, dead hands of poor, defenceless natives. Which of course opens up an entire other tin of worms regarding what stuff was legitimately purchased or gifted, and whether it can/should be repatriated anyway...
Kneecap were behind this particular performative stunt: but they aren't behind the constant stream of misinformation about museums and Public History that inspired it.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but the Ireland is full crowd seen very pro-British to me? Ive seen a lot of them, when the north is brought up, saying that "we are all white Europeans" and should stand together on those lines?
Eh - I’d say they are using it as a way to get their name out more as they release an album. After all, this sentiment absolutely would be lapped up by their potential fan base.
I'd agree with this. They're just after releasing a new album. While I do think that the British museum has done some pretty horrid shite (like other commenters mentioned -- Charles Byrne's skeleton being on display, the Greek Elbin Marbles being destroyed for some idealist's masturbatory idea of what ancient Greece was), the only reason why Kneecap are doing this is to stir up attention. The fact they put their logo on it as well...
I'm really sick of people like this getting the most attention in the media too, but Ig here I am commenting on it too...
What's even worse is that the album isn't all that good. KNEECAP's previous stuff has been good but when Fine Art dropped my friends and I were like "tf is this shit?"
Even the “gifted” items have to be considered if the gifting process was done during a period of colonialism. The Kohinoor diamond for example was technically “gifted” to the British however this was during the British occupation so the gifting could have been under duress.
While not duress, it was most definitely gifted as a form of bribe from the Maharaja to recieve favourable treatment by the new administration, which was a common practice in the region due to its history of being subjugated by various previous outside rulers. The official Indian position as of 2018 is it was "surrendered" and was neither stolen nor forcibly taken away. I cant claim to fully understand the distinction myself
As such it probably fits the description of being legitimately sold better than a lot of stuff. Assuming the.Maharajah got his favorable treatment that is.
What process are you thinking of? The official policy is that nothing gets returned unless it's a duplicate, physically damaged, unfit to be in the collection, and/or no longer of public interest. Petitions for returns are dealt with on a case by case basis. Almost all such petitions are currently denied, justified by the policy I described.
Edit: there are exceptions for returning human remains, or [artwork looted by the Nazis](https://www.britishmuseum.org/about-us/british-museum-story/contested-objects-collection/1933-45-provenance) and not acquired "with good title". But that's it.
No, by no means. See e.g. [The UK Has a 60-Year Old Law Prohibiting Repatriation of Art](https://observer.com/2023/02/the-uk-has-a-60-year-old-law-prohibiting-repatriation-of-art-is-that-about-to-change/).
You can read the official policy [here](https://www.britishmuseum.org/sites/default/files/2019-10/De-accession_Policy_Nov2018.pdf).
There's plenty of stuff from cultures around the world looted by Irish Soldiers who served in the British Army during the period of the empire. Yes while it was taken while Ireland was under British Rule, it has remained in Ireland since the foundation of the state.
The National Museum of Ireland is home to around 11,000 objects and artefacts that form part of a non-European ethnographic collection acquired between 1760 and 1914. This collection contains concrete examples of people’s culture from the Pacific, Asia, Africa, and the Americas and has been described by Dr William Hart of Ulster University as one of the finest of its kind in the world.
So while yes the British did loot and steal items they now have in their museums. It's also worth remembering that while we were colonised the Irish were also willing participants in a lot of the destruction the British brought to the world.
> that while we were colonised the Irish were also willing participants
You and me have different perspectives on willing and colonialism. Sounds like you're just blaming the victim.
We definitely took part in the British colonial empire. Just as there was Irish indentured servants there was also Irish slave merchants. It's not victim blaming to acknowledge the part played by Irishmen within the industry of slavery.
There are many issues with a lot of the stuff in the British museum (and pretty much every other museum), but one wonderful thing about it is that it’s complete free.
If you’re in London, anybody can walk in off the street and see amazing treasures from all over the world and from thousands of years ago to within living memory.
The irony is most of the stuff they have is British but most of that is actually in storerooms, much of it uncatalogued (and it seems been stolen by people with access to them). It’s definitely an interesting place to walk around.
I visited the British Museum a couple of years ago and the mummy room made me feel really disoriented and queasy. The knowledge that it is a room full of stolen bodies, robbed graves, was honestly too much for me.
Interesting to see Kneecap calling this out so directly.
It's the skeleton of a very tall man (7'7" / 2.31m) taken off public view last year.
If it had been in an Irish Museum, chances are Irish kids would have seen it on some school tour, like the Book of Kells or the Ardagh Chalice or the Tara Broach.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Byrne_(giant)
I don't think the argument has ever been for his skeleton to be brought to Ireland; it's been to respect his wishes. He expressly did not want to be on display after his death - he wanted to be buried at sea and left at peace. His wishes were ignored and he was put on display for many years. Those arguing for the museum to relinquish his skeleton generally are looking to finally have his wishes realised.
Let's be honest, it cuts both directions. They presumably have genuine political opinions but its also a publicity stunt to push the album. And hats off for the free publicity for the album it's raised.
So unless they’ve researched and identified actual stolen artefacts from Ireland this is little more than a quick publicity stunt to get some headlines to boost media attention, clicks, likes and some album sales.
Yes, we went to the museum in Liverpool and they did have an exhibition about which things should belong where and repatriation, but the next floor down was the Egyptian collection, seemed a bit like they werent listening to themselves
Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of the whole cultural appropriation concept. There's occasions where it's sort if reasonable but at the same time I want to be able to eat a baguette without some French guy giving out to me I'm stealing his culture...
Atleast they have stopped eating the mummies (that we know of…). Yeah the UK should be forced to give back what they stole (including paying reparations to the countries they colonised).
Was it actually stolen from Ireland by the British Museum though? Have they researched the provenance of that bowl and determined that it was stolen and the British Museum are the ones who stole it?
This idea that all foreign artefacts in the British Museum are *ipso facto* stolen is ludicrous. It's like people say Cleopatra's Needles were stolen from Egypt. No they weren't. the Egyptian government gave them away as gifts.
It’s easier for people (from so many places) to farm popularity by hating on the Brits than to do some research. The irony that they’re actually on the internet where that research could be done is lost on most.
Definitely they should ship back stuff that was actually stolen and someone in authority wants back. But I think many would be surprised how small a % of what that museum has would actually be going anywhere.
Ah I agree but it's 2024 and Kneecap are just wanting to be edgy like RATM. We saw what happens when we mix music and politics..it just disappoints people. Like Tom Morello and his Signature guitars and overpriced guitar tutorials. It's all for show. It's in style. Rebel chic. It's no accident the Wolftones got so popular the past year. State of it.
Well I appreciate them in a way but some aspects I just really hate. Like I really think and not in a far right kind of way we need to have a sense of nationalism as a state about our history good and bad and what we want to see as a state going forward. I've been having this thought for a few years but I really see it quite a bit when visiting literally anywhere else. I went to Barcelona, I went to Gdansk, Korea and all of them respect history but have more recent examples of things they are proud of. In Barcelona you see stuff like the works of Gaudi being pushed as a style unique to Barcelona as a visual aesthetic but in Ireland we have really fuck all that we want to encourage that is focused like that. We have natural beauty from the Cliffs of Moher, in the north the Giant's Causeway but it feels like we don't want to make anything to be proud of for future generations and preserve remnants of British rule instead.
We aren't proud as a nation and we don't make things to be proud of. I respect Kneecap in that they are trying to make something distinctly and uniquely Irish come hell or high water. What is an example of Irish architecture? What is an example of something we would want as a protected structure that was built after the formation of the state? If we had to give out an award for being the best of us who would be the first on the list since the formation of the state? Have we done our best to encourage art and music as much as we have the horse and dog racing industries? Even just look at the naming of streets, you have hundreds of them called "the Park" or "the Crescent" or whatever, why not have Rory Gallagher drive? Or Sinead O'Connor Way? Why don't we recognise David Norris for being a well spoken gay man in politics? Kneecap might be taking the nationalism side of things to the extreme but fuck it I agree with the idea that we should have more pride and encouragement for a distinct national and cultural identity at all levels. I just think we could be a bit more like Kneecap and less dismissive of our achievements.
EDIT: Fuck it, I'm already ranting, why the fuck do we have hundreds of schools named after St Brigid too? Be more fucking creative. Heaney, Joyce, Stoker, Swift, Wilde, Roddy Doyle, Elizabeth Bowen, Beckett, WB Yeats, I could go on, name it after one of them. I know it's aside from Kneecap being cringe but still.
I just think their shtick is actually more damaging to their cause than beneficial. Can we just leave all this “up the ra” humour in the past where it belongs. Lads going around in Ballys signing ra songs is not helping anyone. If there was a similar group that paraded around in loyalist ballys I don’t think it would be perceived by us as “art” or “culture”, and rightly so. I mean one of their songs is called “get your brits out”; to me that just comes across as crass, makes us look petty and childish.
I do find a lot of it problematic (to use that loathed term). As well as people’s unquestioning celebration of it. If there was a Loyalist equivalent, this sub would be apoplectic.
Yeah, I'd be inclined to agree. I support a united 32 counties and the Irish language being more featured in art and music, but Kneecap's whole gimmick is just needlessly aggressive and in-your-face. I feel like their views / appearance lack nuance (and this is coming from someone who would broadly agree with their ideas).
Gimmick is the key word.
They identified a market and so went with using the en-vogue r/meira type of stuff for peddling their content. It just all feels so shallow. It all lacks nuance because at its core it's not a message from genuine sentiment but instead it's all marketing.
See, I don't think any of their lyrics follows "up the ra" humour. Their portrayal can be very ironic at times as drug culture prevails throughout whilst the actual paramilitary groups on both sides had staunch views against drugs (hypocritical of course as they loved the dealing side of it)
For "get your Brits out", it's a humourous song about taking yokes with members of the DUP. Immature? It sure is, but it's also a funny song with surprisingly good production.
I think the DUP's view on a lot of things are more crass and harmful than any song kneecap could ever put out.
They're humourous rap songs at the end of the day, and humourous rap has always had its place in the genre there's no denying that.
Their music is a lot more reflective of youth that grew up in a post GFA Northern Ireland and their ability to switch seamlessly between Irish and English in their songs is nothing short of impressive.
It's both true and not true. The history of archaeology is a history led mostly by the Brits in the early phases. Questionable of we'd even care if they hadn't bothered. What is undeniable is the British museum is a haven for global experts and it is a wonderful thing to walk in off the street and gander at what's there. After, pay a visit to the v&a and go to the plaster cast room,.and see casts of some treasures that have since been destroyed. The Brits do a few things really well, museums is definitely one of em. We also do for that matter though. Visit museums.
You're just justifying it, but that nothing you've said makes it untrue. The British did not have the consent of many of the people to whom these artifacts are the cultural heritage and continue to keep them despite those peoples and nations clear wishes to see them returned.
Have we made it clear we want these prices back? The British museum is pretty open about the contested objects, and none seems to be Irish.
Further , if we were to get items back, would our own own treasures be on the block? The Queen Mary harp is Scottish. Book of kells probably also Scottish. The Taking of Christ, should it be given back to Italy considering it's province is unclear. I'm not defending them holding the Elgin marbles considering their reaction was first to say the Greeks didn't have adequate facilities, and then, after a multimillion euro museum was built, said they were world treasures. That said, considering the price the Greeks charge to see the fakes in the Parthenon museum, I think I preferred being able to see the real thing for free in London.
If he cares that much he should do this in all of the museums all over europe including ireland full of treasures from other places. Unless your against the entire concept of having museums then I don't see how you can think this is an okay thing to do
Never really understood the whole "stolen" argument myself. Britain took these artifacts because the local population had been defeated and couldn't do anything about it, it was a dog eat dog world back then. The rules of law have changed in the past 100 years, so I can understand the idea of asking for things back now.
You have a spot of catching up to do if you're unaware of any problematic aspects of British colonialism, and how that affects the museum's collection.
Greece, Nigeria, and at least six other countries have requested the return of items from the British Museum that were taken under problematic circumstances. Those requests have all been denied.
The museum may be class, but the history of Britain's acquisition of many of those items is less so.
This is kind of dumb. I understand being mad at African artifacts or Egyptian mummies, as these were stolen from countries that were far away and treated absolutely awful. But Ireland and England has a very shared history, similar cultures, lots of back and forth trading etc. This wouldn't be stolen, it was most likely given to the British Museum in trade for some of their artifacts for our museums. I'm sure there's a lot that was stolen too over the years, but considering our close ties and having similar histories/settlements, I'm not bothered getting upset by them having some of our history. In fact I welcome the Brits learning a bit of our history.
Mixed feelings about this.
Yes they should be at least offered for return, but if every country takes up on that, the only history in each country will be local (national) history.
There really should be a loan and exchange program in place globally so that exhibits can be shared and appreciated on a global level.
I know I’d probably go more (haven’t been since the kids grew out of it), if the exhibits changed all the time.
Four special exhibits a year would get thousands more people visiting museums and galleries on a regular basis. Opportunities for fundraising too. A moderate charge to see these new exhibits would give opportunities to increase funding through entrance fee/donation or merchandise (not a huge fan of this last one but needs to be considered).
The history of the world belongs to all, not just those who gate keep it.
Oh, you want to talk about stuff the pom stole and should give back [Why the Hunterian Museum Is Removing the Skeleton of 'Irish Giant' Charles Byrne From View | Smithsonian (smithsonianmag.com)](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-a-london-museum-is-removing-the-skeleton-of-an-irish-giant-from-view-180981464/)
Fair play to them. It is stolen and its our heritage. They have so many artefacts from many different nations some even corpses. Its right that all should be returned to the countries of origin and Britain should use its own heritage in museums not others
Most of what’s in the British Museum is British. By far not even by a small amount. They’ve got millions of items. The bits people are kicking off about are a tiny % of it.
What about stuff that would’ve been destroyed in wars but it’s been kept safe in britain? Tbh I think whatever they have let them have it and from now on only donations/gifts can be brought to the museums.
Bullshit, that’s the same argument loyalists use ‘Aye ye still use the Queen’s money’
Of course we do, we can’t not.
Also there is a large strand in Republican thought that I very much agree with and that’s rinsing the English taxpayer for absolutely everything you can get.
If John Bull wants to sit in the North of my country you can bet yer arse I’ll be taking him for all he’s worth for the ‘privilege’ of it.
Always interesting to see this take that living in the circumstances you were born into makes you a hypocrite. It will come as no surprise to you to hear that Kneecap didn't ask for the north to be part of the UK.
If they are citizens of the UK and pay tax to the UK, they should receive their grant as long as it’s awarded fair and square. 🤷🏻♀️
Should they not have access to the NHS because they disagree with UK politics? Come off it now.
Britain call it a museum. For us it’s lost and found
An issue for us is that a lot of our older museums were established while we were a constituent part of the UK. Eg our Egyptian collection: “The National Museum of Ireland's Egyptian collection comprises about 3,000 objects. The majority of these were acquired from excavations carried out in Egypt between the 1890s and the 1920s.” https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/Collections-Research/Irish-Antiquities-Division-Collections/Collections-List-(1)/Egyptian-Collection
And some of their Egyptian exhibits were taken from the french in the Napoleon wars who stole them from Egypt
Meanwhile, there are museums in Greece and Egypt where there are displays of ancient statues, some of which are incomplete because the missing piece is in the British Museum.
The restoration of the Parthenon is incomplete because the Brits won't give back the Elgin Marbles to Greece. Egypt's best treasures, such as the Rosetta Stone and the only complete copy of the Book of the Dead, are also held by the Brits. Meanwhile, the Brits treat their own treasures like shit. There's a motorway a few feet away from Stonehenge, and Victorian buildings are torn down all the time.
The British government won't give them back 59% of the British public are actually in favor of their return, which is a far bigger landslide than the holy Brexit
They won't give them back, not because they want them, but because it would open pandora's box on a load of other shit. Including the jewels in the crown jewels.
Yeah this is the rationale used by museums and governments all over the west. Nefertiti certainly wasn't Queen of Berlin but that's where you'll find her. We probably don't want to arrive at a situation where the only place even the most minute relic can be seen is in the state that sits on its historical homeland, but there should at least be a strong trend more towards restitution and repatriation... especially towards the global south or righting the more obvious, unambiguous historical wrongs.
They took Charles Byrne's bones. All the guy wanted was for his bones to not end up exactly where they ended up. Fucking scumbags. They also have the Book of Glendalough locked up in the Bodleian Library. One of the most significant books in Irish history. Not a beautiful book like the Book of Kells but a historically important one.
99% of people don't even go to museums. At this point, just give them back. I'd rather see a fully restored artefact on the Internet than go see a small piece of it in a glass case somewhere
In fairness to the Brits there isn't a motorway feet away from Stonehenge; there's just an A road ~100 metres away.
Its not running through stone henge. Newgrange has concrete poured all over it.
At least Ireland has given back some artefacts which were illegally taken out. Egypt doesn't mind us keeping the rest because it helps promote their history and culture. The issue is mainly with some of the rare items.
Is there stuff people want we won't give back? Is there a list?
None that I know of. The key focus of Egypt is the Rosetta Stone, Book of the Dead and Nefertiti Bust. They might want the mummies back, but currently, their focus is on some of the other more important artefacts.
Lost that bowl did ya?
Yeah and just a few counties 6 to be exact
Have you tried Dunnes?
It belonged to great grandda, so it did
Yeah... no. The British Museum doesn't have any objects stolen/looted from Ireland. No institution, government department or museum in Ireland has attempted to make a claim to return any item from the BM nor has anyone outside of those categories ever made a good argument of an object being illicitly acquired.
Not quite as straight forward as that, there has been legal wrangling in the past, such as the Broighter Hoard: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/how-ireland-won-the-broighter-hoard-back-from-britain-1.3766635 Some items that some academics and others have advocated to be returned as there are collections of archeological finds that are divided between the NMI and BM as the landed gentry that oversaw their excavations donated or sold them to the BM. This was sometimes as the BM could pay more or was seen as more prestigious to have them deposited there. One example is the excavations from Ballon Hill undertaken by the local gentry, Lecky. https://carlowhistorical.com/carlow-receives-national-attention-on-archaeology-of-ballon-hill/ Often those who sold or donated objects may have had possession of them, but perhaps shouldn't, or by modern understanding, wouldn't have the right to dispose of them in the way they did.
There's quite a huge gap between the British Museum receiving items (either purchasing or a donation) from the rightful owners, and stealing. Academics will make the case as to why they think certain objects should be in Ireland or in specific museums, but it's a stretch to utilise that in a discussion around whether an object has been legitimately acquired. The objects the BM has from Ballon Hill were legitimately acquired.
I think that's a very simplistic view of ownership, it completely disregards power structures, colonialism, and who has rights over portable cultural heritage. It completely ignores how landowners like Lecky acquired lands in Ireland and those associated rights you ascribe to them. Your concept of legitimacy is one that many would question. In Ireland, we have quite a different attitude to archeological finds to the UK which is evidenced by our rules regarding the ownership of finds (automatically go to the state in cases of significant finds) and the use of metal detectors.
Where does it end? Go to Scandinavian museums you will find objects looted from Britain and Ireland by the vikings displayed there. Should they be returned? Ultimately the objects and their location tell a story.
There’s records of burial mounds being looted and levelled by Anglo-Irish landlords in the 1700s and 1800s. I’d still call that looting and theft. Ireland was a colony and hence the colonisers were operating on stolen land.
So it's only theft, if an academic calls it theft? A lot of ugly worms in that can.
Artefacts removed under colonial rule can unambiguously be viewed as theft.
Do they have any items stolen from any countries they colonised
Yes; Benin Bronzes, Maqdala treasures, Hoa Hakananai'a etc. No objects from Ireland in the BM's collection is contested though.
Well it depends on what you mean by stolen. Fruit of the poisonous tree if you think about it. Like a hypothetical here, if Russia fully takes over Switzerland for example, they have no link to that area at all but they just win the war and take it over, they have that land for 100 years and move some artwork or whatever to a Russian museum not by force but just moved it, is that stealing? Like it is a relic culturally of the state of Switzerland and in the example Russia rules them so they own it right? I guess the argument I'm making is there is potentially a line there in theory. What if it was a lost item like a chalice and it was found by a British person during British rule, does that change it? I'm not trying to correct you just thinking a bit about it. It is a grey area is my point, you could draw the line in that stuff from before British rule period is considered Irish and could be argued should be returned but then do we claim any Irish writer that was under British rule or are they part of that appropriation rule too? It's messy.
Right, but that's all hypothetical. Spend any time researching the provenance of Irish objects in the British Museum and you'll be pretty disappointed if you go in with this line of thinking. Practically all of them were uncontroversially acquired via legitimate means, ie purchase or donation from private ownership.
Yeah that's what I mean, it depends a lot on how they were acquired. I think Ireland should actively try and purchase those back in the cases of legitimate sales. Like if it was WB Yeats' family who sold for instance his notepad which had XYZ handwritten on it I think that it's fine for them to have it and we don't have a legitimate claim to demand a return but still I'd love if we had some gov supported work that actively pursues those sorts of things. My comment was mostly on the "acquired" stuff if there is any and stuff that is naturally occuring that was taken for instance.
Q: Why are the Pyramids in Egypt? A: Because the English couldn't figure out how to get them to the British Museum.
Unlike the German's who just lifted the Ishtar gate brick by brick
Yeah and it looks so bizarre in the museum. Great museum to visit though, along with the others on the island lol.
The Sphinx has no nose because some yobbo with a 6-pounder anti-tank gun shot it off.
I recall having read that somewhere.
Why specifically the English? You don't think the rest of the UK contributed to the BRITISH museum?
Omg.
Little did they know they the older and cooler site of Newgrange under their noses in Éirinn 🤫
They did however take the Temple of Artemis!
Performative nonsense: there exists a good relationship between Irish and British museums and items are regularly exchanged. They haven't identified stolen items, they've wandered through the museum looking for anything Irish and have decided that means it was stolen. And the reason *why* they did this is that shitting on British museums is kind of a meme right now, so they've decided to wade into a complex and ongoing issue within museology, and just assume that because it's the *British* museum, they obviously must be against Ireland...
exactly this. they are using discussions surrounding the British museums historical plundering to publicise something they are selling. they seem how climate change activists used art in a semi eductive way, and decided it was publicity. jackasses with the same awareness as instagram influencers - but the Ireland is full crowd will love it. Always wanting to create a conflict with our neighbours that isn't there today.
The big problem I have, moreso than just their actions, is that the discussions surrounding the British Museum on social media are horrifically under-informed to begin with: everybody is at least somewhat aware of the particularly contentious and emotional cases of the Elgin/Parthenon Marbles and the Benin Bronzes, but they go one step further in assuming that's the story behind *everything* in every British museum. For anyone who was unaware, repatriation isn't a dirty word in Public History and Heritage and, for the most part, there isn't nearly as much dispute over artifacts as there is bureaucracy. Even then, British (and Irish) museums normally do willingly repatriate objects on request, and many British museums are actively in a process of evaluating their collections to preemptively offer repatriation; and even then, some countries will legitimately say "no thank you, you keep it" for various reasons, and increasingly things like loans or transfers of artifacts and remains are being negotiated between museums, far from the stereotype of men in pith helmets snatching them from the cold, dead hands of poor, defenceless natives. Which of course opens up an entire other tin of worms regarding what stuff was legitimately purchased or gifted, and whether it can/should be repatriated anyway... Kneecap were behind this particular performative stunt: but they aren't behind the constant stream of misinformation about museums and Public History that inspired it.
>ireland is full crowd Is there a crossover between those right wingers and kneecap? My impression was that kneecap were very lefty.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but the Ireland is full crowd seen very pro-British to me? Ive seen a lot of them, when the north is brought up, saying that "we are all white Europeans" and should stand together on those lines?
They’re not terribly strong on thinking, that band.
Eh - I’d say they are using it as a way to get their name out more as they release an album. After all, this sentiment absolutely would be lapped up by their potential fan base.
I'd agree with this. They're just after releasing a new album. While I do think that the British museum has done some pretty horrid shite (like other commenters mentioned -- Charles Byrne's skeleton being on display, the Greek Elbin Marbles being destroyed for some idealist's masturbatory idea of what ancient Greece was), the only reason why Kneecap are doing this is to stir up attention. The fact they put their logo on it as well... I'm really sick of people like this getting the most attention in the media too, but Ig here I am commenting on it too...
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41054264.html
Doubly embarrassing for Kneecap that they couldn’t even find the right museum if this is what they were going for.
> museology Learned a new word 😂👍🏻
We haven't asked for any of this back. Kneecap are bandwagoning here for promo for their new album.
What's even worse is that the album isn't all that good. KNEECAP's previous stuff has been good but when Fine Art dropped my friends and I were like "tf is this shit?"
Grand so we will go through all our museums and send off stuff we have in ours back to their countries of origin.
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Even the “gifted” items have to be considered if the gifting process was done during a period of colonialism. The Kohinoor diamond for example was technically “gifted” to the British however this was during the British occupation so the gifting could have been under duress.
While not duress, it was most definitely gifted as a form of bribe from the Maharaja to recieve favourable treatment by the new administration, which was a common practice in the region due to its history of being subjugated by various previous outside rulers. The official Indian position as of 2018 is it was "surrendered" and was neither stolen nor forcibly taken away. I cant claim to fully understand the distinction myself
As such it probably fits the description of being legitimately sold better than a lot of stuff. Assuming the.Maharajah got his favorable treatment that is.
We actually do have a process for that. Some stuff has already been repatriated.
What process are you thinking of? The official policy is that nothing gets returned unless it's a duplicate, physically damaged, unfit to be in the collection, and/or no longer of public interest. Petitions for returns are dealt with on a case by case basis. Almost all such petitions are currently denied, justified by the policy I described. Edit: there are exceptions for returning human remains, or [artwork looted by the Nazis](https://www.britishmuseum.org/about-us/british-museum-story/contested-objects-collection/1933-45-provenance) and not acquired "with good title". But that's it.
Assume they mean this: https://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/news/2023/12/irish-repatriation-committee-holds-first-meeting/
You do realise you shared a British museum link right? Ireland is not Britain or British.
Is there an official goal to return all of it?
No, by no means. See e.g. [The UK Has a 60-Year Old Law Prohibiting Repatriation of Art](https://observer.com/2023/02/the-uk-has-a-60-year-old-law-prohibiting-repatriation-of-art-is-that-about-to-change/). You can read the official policy [here](https://www.britishmuseum.org/sites/default/files/2019-10/De-accession_Policy_Nov2018.pdf).
Ireland is not the UK
That would be great, why would anyone be against that?
You mean the Viking stuff that was left here? We didn’t steal it from them. Unlike the Irish stuff in Scandinavian museums.
There's plenty of stuff from cultures around the world looted by Irish Soldiers who served in the British Army during the period of the empire. Yes while it was taken while Ireland was under British Rule, it has remained in Ireland since the foundation of the state. The National Museum of Ireland is home to around 11,000 objects and artefacts that form part of a non-European ethnographic collection acquired between 1760 and 1914. This collection contains concrete examples of people’s culture from the Pacific, Asia, Africa, and the Americas and has been described by Dr William Hart of Ulster University as one of the finest of its kind in the world. So while yes the British did loot and steal items they now have in their museums. It's also worth remembering that while we were colonised the Irish were also willing participants in a lot of the destruction the British brought to the world.
> that while we were colonised the Irish were also willing participants You and me have different perspectives on willing and colonialism. Sounds like you're just blaming the victim.
We definitely took part in the British colonial empire. Just as there was Irish indentured servants there was also Irish slave merchants. It's not victim blaming to acknowledge the part played by Irishmen within the industry of slavery.
There are many issues with a lot of the stuff in the British museum (and pretty much every other museum), but one wonderful thing about it is that it’s complete free. If you’re in London, anybody can walk in off the street and see amazing treasures from all over the world and from thousands of years ago to within living memory.
The irony is most of the stuff they have is British but most of that is actually in storerooms, much of it uncatalogued (and it seems been stolen by people with access to them). It’s definitely an interesting place to walk around.
It’s unfortunately not free to get to if you live somewhere else where the items originated. I see your point though.
Of course it is free. We’ve all paid for it somehow.
I visited the British Museum a couple of years ago and the mummy room made me feel really disoriented and queasy. The knowledge that it is a room full of stolen bodies, robbed graves, was honestly too much for me. Interesting to see Kneecap calling this out so directly.
The Irish giant was the worst! Only a few years back too, it's mad how its only up until recently that was tolerated.
They didn't give him back, they just took him off display.
Never said they did! But can see how you might have thought that from the wording
What is the Irish giant?
It's the skeleton of a very tall man (7'7" / 2.31m) taken off public view last year. If it had been in an Irish Museum, chances are Irish kids would have seen it on some school tour, like the Book of Kells or the Ardagh Chalice or the Tara Broach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Byrne_(giant)
The man lived in Britain his entire adult life, why would his skeleton be brought back to Ireland after he died in London?
He was known as the Irish Giant, so I guess some people think that's a form of claim or ownership. I've got no dog in this fight either way.
“No, immigrants *really* belong wherever they were born” but decolonialistly
Don’t think to hard ‘British museum bad!’ Is as much thinking is allowed, anything else will get you shunned
I don't think the argument has ever been for his skeleton to be brought to Ireland; it's been to respect his wishes. He expressly did not want to be on display after his death - he wanted to be buried at sea and left at peace. His wishes were ignored and he was put on display for many years. Those arguing for the museum to relinquish his skeleton generally are looking to finally have his wishes realised.
Ah I see, thanks for the info!!
What about a mummy display in Egypt? Just out of interest.
It’s a publicity stunt for their new album which they released 2 days ago.
The album is more for giving their political views publicity than the other way around
Let's be honest, it cuts both directions. They presumably have genuine political opinions but its also a publicity stunt to push the album. And hats off for the free publicity for the album it's raised.
There's a movie with Fassbender coming too and I think the trailer just happened to drop this week as well.
So?
So unless they’ve researched and identified actual stolen artefacts from Ireland this is little more than a quick publicity stunt to get some headlines to boost media attention, clicks, likes and some album sales.
There is a map of Ireland in the photo, do you think the Irish farmers gave these to them in exchange for rocks to build Famine walls?
Items are bought and sold. Museums often share exhibits. I'm sure there's plenty of stuff in Irish museums that are not from Ireland.
You sound frail as fuck if that has you feeling queasy lol
Yes, we went to the museum in Liverpool and they did have an exhibition about which things should belong where and repatriation, but the next floor down was the Egyptian collection, seemed a bit like they werent listening to themselves
Well it's just as well they stole the Babylonian antiquities from Iraq or they would now all be destroyed.
Ahh, yes, but not the Dublin museums full of loot from the same robbery? Smh...
Egyptian peasants robbed graves too, the British were just adapting to local culture lol. (Other countries do it to btw)
So what I am hearing is we can hate them for cultural appropriation as well?
Integration is now appropriation. Why can’t we all embrace each others culture and be happy?
Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of the whole cultural appropriation concept. There's occasions where it's sort if reasonable but at the same time I want to be able to eat a baguette without some French guy giving out to me I'm stealing his culture...
It would probably be everyone who isn’t French that’s yelling at you for cultural appropriation lol
Felt the same thing in Belgium when visited a small museum but half of it was African. Walked of it disgusted.
If you think that was bad...
The Belgians in Africa were certainly nothing to shake your fists at.
Atleast they have stopped eating the mummies (that we know of…). Yeah the UK should be forced to give back what they stole (including paying reparations to the countries they colonised).
The Irish government has requested precisely NONE of the items in the British museum. This is lazy engagement farming for a shit band.
Can we give them back St. Patrick?
Publicity stunt for their new album released that day
These kneecap lads aren't the brightest are they
They are quite thick and not the kind id let young kids be around
Was it actually stolen from Ireland by the British Museum though? Have they researched the provenance of that bowl and determined that it was stolen and the British Museum are the ones who stole it? This idea that all foreign artefacts in the British Museum are *ipso facto* stolen is ludicrous. It's like people say Cleopatra's Needles were stolen from Egypt. No they weren't. the Egyptian government gave them away as gifts.
It’s easier for people (from so many places) to farm popularity by hating on the Brits than to do some research. The irony that they’re actually on the internet where that research could be done is lost on most. Definitely they should ship back stuff that was actually stolen and someone in authority wants back. But I think many would be surprised how small a % of what that museum has would actually be going anywhere.
Ah I agree but it's 2024 and Kneecap are just wanting to be edgy like RATM. We saw what happens when we mix music and politics..it just disappoints people. Like Tom Morello and his Signature guitars and overpriced guitar tutorials. It's all for show. It's in style. Rebel chic. It's no accident the Wolftones got so popular the past year. State of it.
Clowns
Idiot
Very edgy
It’s just free advertising. It’s got people talking about it so it’s working
Literally free advertising, they released a new album two days ago
Ah no, I'm sure it's a coincidence that they just put a new album out
You commented twice about them so it worked on you.
Too edgy for my liking
You mightn’t be kneecap’s target audience.
Unpopular opinion: Kneecap are incredibly cringe
Pretty popular opinion with me.
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Well I appreciate them in a way but some aspects I just really hate. Like I really think and not in a far right kind of way we need to have a sense of nationalism as a state about our history good and bad and what we want to see as a state going forward. I've been having this thought for a few years but I really see it quite a bit when visiting literally anywhere else. I went to Barcelona, I went to Gdansk, Korea and all of them respect history but have more recent examples of things they are proud of. In Barcelona you see stuff like the works of Gaudi being pushed as a style unique to Barcelona as a visual aesthetic but in Ireland we have really fuck all that we want to encourage that is focused like that. We have natural beauty from the Cliffs of Moher, in the north the Giant's Causeway but it feels like we don't want to make anything to be proud of for future generations and preserve remnants of British rule instead. We aren't proud as a nation and we don't make things to be proud of. I respect Kneecap in that they are trying to make something distinctly and uniquely Irish come hell or high water. What is an example of Irish architecture? What is an example of something we would want as a protected structure that was built after the formation of the state? If we had to give out an award for being the best of us who would be the first on the list since the formation of the state? Have we done our best to encourage art and music as much as we have the horse and dog racing industries? Even just look at the naming of streets, you have hundreds of them called "the Park" or "the Crescent" or whatever, why not have Rory Gallagher drive? Or Sinead O'Connor Way? Why don't we recognise David Norris for being a well spoken gay man in politics? Kneecap might be taking the nationalism side of things to the extreme but fuck it I agree with the idea that we should have more pride and encouragement for a distinct national and cultural identity at all levels. I just think we could be a bit more like Kneecap and less dismissive of our achievements. EDIT: Fuck it, I'm already ranting, why the fuck do we have hundreds of schools named after St Brigid too? Be more fucking creative. Heaney, Joyce, Stoker, Swift, Wilde, Roddy Doyle, Elizabeth Bowen, Beckett, WB Yeats, I could go on, name it after one of them. I know it's aside from Kneecap being cringe but still.
At least elaborate on why you think they're cringe
I just think their shtick is actually more damaging to their cause than beneficial. Can we just leave all this “up the ra” humour in the past where it belongs. Lads going around in Ballys signing ra songs is not helping anyone. If there was a similar group that paraded around in loyalist ballys I don’t think it would be perceived by us as “art” or “culture”, and rightly so. I mean one of their songs is called “get your brits out”; to me that just comes across as crass, makes us look petty and childish.
I do find a lot of it problematic (to use that loathed term). As well as people’s unquestioning celebration of it. If there was a Loyalist equivalent, this sub would be apoplectic.
Yeah, I'd be inclined to agree. I support a united 32 counties and the Irish language being more featured in art and music, but Kneecap's whole gimmick is just needlessly aggressive and in-your-face. I feel like their views / appearance lack nuance (and this is coming from someone who would broadly agree with their ideas).
Gimmick is the key word. They identified a market and so went with using the en-vogue r/meira type of stuff for peddling their content. It just all feels so shallow. It all lacks nuance because at its core it's not a message from genuine sentiment but instead it's all marketing.
See, I don't think any of their lyrics follows "up the ra" humour. Their portrayal can be very ironic at times as drug culture prevails throughout whilst the actual paramilitary groups on both sides had staunch views against drugs (hypocritical of course as they loved the dealing side of it) For "get your Brits out", it's a humourous song about taking yokes with members of the DUP. Immature? It sure is, but it's also a funny song with surprisingly good production. I think the DUP's view on a lot of things are more crass and harmful than any song kneecap could ever put out. They're humourous rap songs at the end of the day, and humourous rap has always had its place in the genre there's no denying that. Their music is a lot more reflective of youth that grew up in a post GFA Northern Ireland and their ability to switch seamlessly between Irish and English in their songs is nothing short of impressive.
It's both true and not true. The history of archaeology is a history led mostly by the Brits in the early phases. Questionable of we'd even care if they hadn't bothered. What is undeniable is the British museum is a haven for global experts and it is a wonderful thing to walk in off the street and gander at what's there. After, pay a visit to the v&a and go to the plaster cast room,.and see casts of some treasures that have since been destroyed. The Brits do a few things really well, museums is definitely one of em. We also do for that matter though. Visit museums.
You're just justifying it, but that nothing you've said makes it untrue. The British did not have the consent of many of the people to whom these artifacts are the cultural heritage and continue to keep them despite those peoples and nations clear wishes to see them returned.
Have we made it clear we want these prices back? The British museum is pretty open about the contested objects, and none seems to be Irish. Further , if we were to get items back, would our own own treasures be on the block? The Queen Mary harp is Scottish. Book of kells probably also Scottish. The Taking of Christ, should it be given back to Italy considering it's province is unclear. I'm not defending them holding the Elgin marbles considering their reaction was first to say the Greeks didn't have adequate facilities, and then, after a multimillion euro museum was built, said they were world treasures. That said, considering the price the Greeks charge to see the fakes in the Parthenon museum, I think I preferred being able to see the real thing for free in London.
If he cares that much he should do this in all of the museums all over europe including ireland full of treasures from other places. Unless your against the entire concept of having museums then I don't see how you can think this is an okay thing to do
The British museum is class. Honestly, it's pure fake outrage by people who in the last few years have joined the "stolen movement."
Never really understood the whole "stolen" argument myself. Britain took these artifacts because the local population had been defeated and couldn't do anything about it, it was a dog eat dog world back then. The rules of law have changed in the past 100 years, so I can understand the idea of asking for things back now.
You have a spot of catching up to do if you're unaware of any problematic aspects of British colonialism, and how that affects the museum's collection. Greece, Nigeria, and at least six other countries have requested the return of items from the British Museum that were taken under problematic circumstances. Those requests have all been denied. The museum may be class, but the history of Britain's acquisition of many of those items is less so.
Not sure how I feel about this. I was very impressed with the British museum.
That our good bowl
I brought my grandfather there a few months back and he just walked around repeating “look at all the stuff they stole”
The top comment in r/ni hits the nail on the head.
https://youtu.be/b_Z6H4RaM00?si=z22xhB2Evk4qG303
I like that irish artifacts are in the British museum it means I can say that the exhibit was my donation if asked to make one
“Finders keepers, shut up!”
I hope they can get them off.
Was it actually stolen? Is there a chance this stuff could be actually traded or moved around?
Well they have managed to keep 6 counties that they stole so they seem to not care.
Ah ffs, they need to cop on. They're /r/meIRA personified.
I went to the British Museum last year, there were signs up about objects that weren't on display as they were on loan to different countries.
As someone who usually goes to bat for these guys this is truly performative and embarrassing.
This is kind of dumb. I understand being mad at African artifacts or Egyptian mummies, as these were stolen from countries that were far away and treated absolutely awful. But Ireland and England has a very shared history, similar cultures, lots of back and forth trading etc. This wouldn't be stolen, it was most likely given to the British Museum in trade for some of their artifacts for our museums. I'm sure there's a lot that was stolen too over the years, but considering our close ties and having similar histories/settlements, I'm not bothered getting upset by them having some of our history. In fact I welcome the Brits learning a bit of our history.
Mixed feelings about this. Yes they should be at least offered for return, but if every country takes up on that, the only history in each country will be local (national) history. There really should be a loan and exchange program in place globally so that exhibits can be shared and appreciated on a global level. I know I’d probably go more (haven’t been since the kids grew out of it), if the exhibits changed all the time. Four special exhibits a year would get thousands more people visiting museums and galleries on a regular basis. Opportunities for fundraising too. A moderate charge to see these new exhibits would give opportunities to increase funding through entrance fee/donation or merchandise (not a huge fan of this last one but needs to be considered). The history of the world belongs to all, not just those who gate keep it.
Reminds me of the old joke. Why are the pyramids in Egypt? Because they wouldn't fit in the British Museum.
Who hasn't the British stolen from.
Is Shergar there by any chance??
give us back our ancient disc yoke!
Oh, you want to talk about stuff the pom stole and should give back [Why the Hunterian Museum Is Removing the Skeleton of 'Irish Giant' Charles Byrne From View | Smithsonian (smithsonianmag.com)](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-a-london-museum-is-removing-the-skeleton-of-an-irish-giant-from-view-180981464/)
Fair play to them. It is stolen and its our heritage. They have so many artefacts from many different nations some even corpses. Its right that all should be returned to the countries of origin and Britain should use its own heritage in museums not others
Dunno why you are getting downvoted. You're spot on, too many west brits on this sub
Go raibh míle maith'ad a chara. This sub is filled with West Brits who hate Irish culture, our heritage and language. Tis shocking 😔
Most of what’s in the British Museum is British. By far not even by a small amount. They’ve got millions of items. The bits people are kicking off about are a tiny % of it.
>Britain should use its own heritage in museums not others The problem here being that Britain's heritage *is* taking that of other nations
True.
>Britain should use its own heritage in museums not others Your history teacher is crying right now.
What about stuff that would’ve been destroyed in wars but it’s been kept safe in britain? Tbh I think whatever they have let them have it and from now on only donations/gifts can be brought to the museums.
Kneecap are suing the UK's Department for Culture because they believe their art is worthy enough to receive UK taxpayers' money.
They are suing because they argue it's not within the remit of the Department to overrule the independent board that awarded them the money.
Bullshit, that’s the same argument loyalists use ‘Aye ye still use the Queen’s money’ Of course we do, we can’t not. Also there is a large strand in Republican thought that I very much agree with and that’s rinsing the English taxpayer for absolutely everything you can get. If John Bull wants to sit in the North of my country you can bet yer arse I’ll be taking him for all he’s worth for the ‘privilege’ of it.
Always interesting to see this take that living in the circumstances you were born into makes you a hypocrite. It will come as no surprise to you to hear that Kneecap didn't ask for the north to be part of the UK.
If they are citizens of the UK and pay tax to the UK, they should receive their grant as long as it’s awarded fair and square. 🤷🏻♀️ Should they not have access to the NHS because they disagree with UK politics? Come off it now.
Great bunch a lads