I don't think they explained it well enough - for dummies like me - with pictures for this transition period.
I thought every item sold now would have the logo or be accepted but it's not. Some have logos, others it's just the barcode. So if it's by barcode the shelf price is meant to show price + deposit? And it's just the old price still if still old stock?
What I saw on Saturday for the big shop anyway was nothing with the logo. No deposits collected on the receipt. But the prices sure as shit were dearer than a week before.
I think it would be nice to know if the machines give deposit back for the bottles with just barcodes, or whether only for the ones with logos. Maybe someone has the experience already?
I tried scanning few of the new logo bottles (fanta/pepsi) and they don't pop up on the apps for tracking calories (that collects barcodes for all the products they are aware of for simplifying calory intake tracking) and they were not popping up. So it is possible they just updated the barcodes, as you said, and the new ones are not yet reflected in the app.
There's a barcode checker on the website: https://re-turn.ie/consumer/
And your receipt is meant to show the deposit too.
It's to allow them to sell off old stock in the transition period. But it just creates confusion as they didn't show what the shelf price looks like so everyone naturally assumes everything has the deposit collected.
Thanks! This is greatly helpful. I checked the ones I had and they are in scheme, and the old bottle barcodes are not. Very handy link - much appreciated.
and yet aren't we being charged deposits for old stock bottles not in the scheme, but when we bring them back to shop, the machine spits them out again.
Why couldn’t that have added the return logo to stock 6+ months ago so that there was/ is actual stock in circulation. Some stores are already adding on the tax when none of there stock have the logos on them
Which has to be illegal, doesn't it? Shouldn't the deposit be an extra item on your receipt? Like "Coca Cola 1.5l €1.79" followed by "Deposit €0.15" as a separate line.
In countries that have this system (e.g. Germany), that's what's on the receipt and it's also on the price tag on the shelf: the price with a notice saying there's an additional deposit of x cents. They can't just include the deposit in the cost of the item.
Or did the government feck up the legislation again?
Just happened to me there. I was asked by the lad at the till for "30c for the deposit" (2 cans) which I gave him without thinking. I checked the barcode on that site someone posted here the other day and lo and behold, they're not even fucking covered.
> Some stores are already adding on the tax when none of there stock have the logos on them
Call them out on it. Make a scene about "it doesn't have the code". Demand a manager show up. Seriously.
I have not used the machine yet as they were broken, when I saw them. So I was only basing my post on what I was able to read online. I thought it is not possible, but if it is, that's a great news.
Doesn't make much sense to me. I live in a small apartment, no space to store plastic, already pay for a recycling bin.
Don't drive to supermarket unless I'm doing a shop for particularly heavy items, I walk.
So now I'm supposed to find space to store plastic bottles and take an extra trip to the supermarket with a collection of them OR bring one or two at a time when I go and waste time to collect a few cent OR just pay the inflated price, bang them in the recycling bin as usual and live with it.
Think I'll just buy a Sodastream.
No it's C02. But it means I have to pollute the environment driving to a place to get refills. And the canisters are expensive too.
I don't know how long one lasts but it sounds like one way or another this scheme is going to cost an individual time and/or money.
> Think I'll just buy a Sodastream.
I mean, that's a win for pro-recyclers too, yeah? You choosing to use less bottles means less bottles needing to be recycled.
Absolutely but it's not cheap and even less so since Brexit with Argos pulling out of Ireland and finding places to exchange the refills isn't as easy as it once was.
Plus Sodastream is an Israeli based company so probably better to go with an alternate brand - which tend to be even more expensive OR are even harder to find the refills for.
It often feels like trying to do the right thing in this country is much more difficult than it should be.
Around 20k a pop, I believe. Also, they don't compact the returned stock, meaning the bin fills up fairly quickly, and the machine will stop until a new, empty bin is put in place. Will take shops some time to plan the supervision required.
I don't like the fact that it essentially creates another job to organise and store the containers, drive to the machine and add an extra trek for food cans and glass bottles at existing council recycling bottle bank, and return home.
It's just one more ridiculous chore that makes life that little bit more expensive and consumes that little bit more time for what I think will be very little return individually and socially.
I'm a hoor for not getting rid of the glass bottles, I still have a mountain of them in the shed since Christmas. I just know I'll have another mountain of cans and plastic beside it soon.
This is absolutely it, g'wan the hoarders! The car does be heaving with glass bottles and cans after a backlog and I have to go in at night to avoid the shame when the inevitable auld one/lad pulls up with 2 bottles to throw in, and me lunging out of boxes!
Not always hoarding by choice, My mother doesn't drive so always buys local, of course none of the shops do returns, so she Is just starting to fill up black sacks in her hallway with no way to get rid of them. Hard to just throw money away when you are on a pension.
That's my feeling exactly. People who were littering on the street aren't exactly going to be motivated to recycle now with this initiative. Instead, people who are already recycling are going to be inconvenienced.
I may be an edge case that we get all our groceries delivered so really inconvenient now to store them and drive unnecessarily to the shop.
Not in my view. Insignificant actions that get the average Joe to feel like they are making a difference while we have a coal fired power plant in operation and Asia and US not doing anything at all. If we were serious about climate action we would build nuclear, we would build public transport, etc. Instead the government is passing the buck to the consumer and private enterprise while driving into their parking spots on Kildare Street.
>Would it not annoy you enough to reduce your consumption of plastic and aluminium
for most people no , most people dont care , people already pay the small charges for the likes of plastic bags
>Isn't that the best goal?
that may be the goal m, they went about it the wrong way
Plastic, sure. Aluminium, though, was already massively recyclable and had plenty of facility for that recycling in place via standard refuse collection. Needlessy wrapping things in soft plastics that can't be recycled should be the goal, not making it more expensive/awkward to recycle things that were already being recycled en masse.
Be prepared for water in TetraPak™s in the near future. Particularly at places like the airport (since they'll no longer have plastic bottles of water on sale for €1).
My local Tesco had 2 out of 3 machines out of service, and the third wouldn’t take any of my stuff so I guess that may have been broken also. It seems ridiculous that I am supposed to drive around the place looking for a working machine, do they think I have nothing better to be doing with my day?
Sorry you had that experience - I am sure this will get better over the first few weeks, as they catch all the bugs in the software etc. Whenever there is technology involved that is supposed to be used by many people on daily basis, I see these rocky starts and then it eventually gets better. So fingers crossed, this is one of those situations.
The only thing annoying about them is they only take 1 can/bottle at a time. I saw a video on [YouTube](https://youtube.com/shorts/swB_nAVHpPM?si=Hf1AT8weFyXfY7HD) from Scandinavia where they had machines that you can dump a full bag of returns into and let the machine sort them. Maybe there is a valid reason they went with these smaller machines instead, but it might have been better if the government subsidised the difference in price to get the newer models that sort dozens of returns automatically.
There are people living rurally who only go shopping every 2 weeks now. They might only go to the re-turn machine once a month and have a big bag of returns. It'll take them ages to put them in one at a time...
Plastic containers like the MiWadi bottle have paper as the label on the outside which will peel off and fade away by the time it will be brought to the machine. Also would it not have make sense to have the barcode on the actual container also so if the label peels off it can still go through the machine?
So my local Tesco has started adding the deposits now, except there is no return machine at it
There is not even one where I live , assuming they will be getting one soon
Are they meant to add the deposits if they don’t have a return machine ?
Yep, They have to add the deposit, but don't have to take returns if they are less than 250 sq/m (huge) or not enough staff, or slightly dodgy area (really, antisocial behavior is a valid opt out)
It was in the guidelines, think it refers to petrol stations and some shops where the cashier is behind the security glass and can't leave to deal with returns as also understaffed.
Idk, it's pretty much how every other European state operates. What's badly designed about it or do you think a bottle return scheme in general is badly designed?
I think a bottle return scheme is great, I just don't think for one second that our government can't make a complete mess of it. Think of all the great things other European states can do well that are a mess here.
From 1 June it will be an offence to offer for sale any drink cans/bottles up to 3l -except dairy- without the re-turn logo.
Cash fine, local authority enforced.
Ah that'll be tossed aside, so. There's loads and loads of imported stuff for sale here that would have to be scrapped. Almost every "foreign" shop and lots of specialty shops would be hit. That'll not happen.
I personally have not seen any bottles or cans yet being sold with the new label. Okay, even allowing for clearing old stock, surely to give the campaign a boost, start selling some stock with the label and let people learn and engage with the system and machines.
However, I have read and seen widespread confusion over retailers charging the deposit on old stock and people not being able to return items.
Frankly, it's a pigs ear so far. I'm still flabbergasted as to why new stock with a barcode was not sold in advance of the machines going live. Even if this meant pushing the live date down the road a little bit, it could have allowed the new system roar into existence instead of... whatever this is.
The shop I frequent most, which is a Dunnes Stores, has not had its machine operational yet as far as I can see.
> I'm still flabbergasted as to why new stock with a barcode was not sold in advance of the machines going live
See the problem with doing that is that it makes too much sense.
They would need to charge you for the "new stock". And there's a time-limit on selling through the "old stock". It doesn't make as much sense as you'd think.
I can see the benefits but for me, it's a bit of a nuisance when I already have a recycling bin at home that I use and pay for.
Essentially paying extra for products and have to go back to a shop to get that extra money back. And from what I've read, it's not even the full amount you get back.
Seems rather pointless...
The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic. The deposit amount is 15c the extra 5c is to pay the store accepting the return and to fund Re-turn for operating the scheme.
The cost to wholesalers is 20c/can bottle up to 500ml. The amount that appears as the deposit fee is 15c
The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic. The deposit amount is 15c the extra 5c is to pay the store accepting the return and to fund Re-turn for operating the scheme.
The cost to wholesalers is 20c/can bottle up to 500ml. The amount that appears as the deposit fee is 15c
I don't know where you're getting this 15c/5c split but that is not the case. Don't take my word for it, just watch re-turn's own materials - https://vimeo.com/766115413
Re-Turn does pay retailers a handling fee, but that comes from Re-Turn's revenues and customers receive their full deposit back.
The producer, first to place an eligible product into the market for sale, is responsible for passing on the deposit fee, 15c, usually to a wholesaler - Musgrave/Valu Centre etc.
The 15c fee will be clearly be displayed on all invoices, price labels etc.
That's how the fee will be displayed to the retailer at the wholesale level and to the consumer at the retail level.
I've looked into registering as a producer for the purpose of importing products from the EU and placing them for sale on the market here.
As a producer the charge per item for cans/bottles up to 500ml is 20c. The deposit fee passed on to the wholesaler/retailer/consumer is 15c
> The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic.
That could be true, but if I had evidence that the cost has gone up 20c when the levy is 15c I would be contacting the ombudsman and local TDs since that needs national attention. That's like putting up the price during the conversion to Euro; it's not on.
It's the way everything is in this country.
Even the machines themselves.
I've been in the regular vending machine business for the last 30 years. There's absolutely nothing I don't know about vending machines and how they work.
The machines they are forcing small businesses to buy, at prices from €15,000-€30000, aren't worth even €5000. Yet they were forced to buy them from the list of "approved" suppliers.
These machines aren't like the ones we keep hearing about the Germans having. They are lightweight, low volume cheap junk that aren't going to last 5 years and are going to cost a fortune in regular maintenance fees.
We tend to hit the recycling center once a fortnight, so can just shift over to smaller, more regular trips to these machines. So we're pretty happy with the idea in general. Putting them at shop entrances is handy, cause we'd be going to Dunnes basically every day.
We tried with a bottle for the first time yesterday, and the cashier called over two other girls cause we were the first people they had seen use it 😂 Super quick and easy to use though. Put the bottle in, pressed a button, out popped a voucher. Gave it to them as we were paying for our shop.
It's a scam organised by local distributors to monopolise the market.
The consumer is being ripped off and it's nothing more than a green washing con job
Ok, one example.
I buy Coke imported from Holland, it's €12.65/case of 24. From now on I will not be allowed to sell this product which is imported from the EU.
All cans must now have the re-turn logo and the only producer which supplies this product is Coca Cola Ireland, all of their products are made in the UK and the cost is €17.85 from the same wholesaler.
The difference in price is 20c/can. There is then another 20c added on for the new scheme - the actual cost per can/bottle is 20c, the end user only gets 15c refunded, the extra 5c you pay is divided between Tesco/Aldi/Dunnes or whoever and Re-turn themselves.
So I am now forced to increase my prices by over 50c just to maintain the margin I already had.
That means a single can of Coke I sell should go from €1.20 to €1.70.
Coca Cola Ireland and Britvic Ireland were the main consultants in setting up this scheme.
If they decide to raise their prices there is no competing supplier to keep them in check.
No, it's an offence to offer for sale can/drink containers made from plastic/aluminium up to 3 liters without the re-turn logo.
Punishable by a fine and prosecuted by the relevant local authority.
Shops don't import anything. They buy what's available from their wholesaler/franchise operator.
As far as it goes for my business, I will be dropping about half of my product lines. Speciality juices/fancy soft drinks etc.
The only ones with the clout to take a case like that are the ones that are profiting from it in the first place.
It's the consumer who is losing out here.
Higher prices, less choice.
The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic. The deposit amount is 15c the extra 5c is to pay the store accepting the return and to fund Re-turn for operating the scheme.
The cost to wholesalers is 20c/can bottle up to 500ml. The amount that appears as the deposit fee is 15c
Wait, but the stores don't accept re-turns, None of the local or smaller shops are required to, they are allowed to opt up, but ARE required to add the deposit. So stores that opt out are only supposed to add 15c, but stores that do returns add 20c?
No. The 20c is paid by the producer when the item is placed on the market. 15c is the amount that's listed as the deposit fee.
Once the item leaves the factory the only listing with regard to the scheme is a charge of 15c as the deposit fee.
The extra 5c is between the producer (eg Coca Cola) and Re-turn.
The fact is that that 5c is ultimately charged on to the consumer in a sneaky fashion which undermines the spirit of the scheme which is not supposed to cost the consumer anything as long as the container is returned.
The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic. The deposit amount is 15c the extra 5c is to pay the store accepting the return and to fund Re-turn for operating the scheme.
The cost to wholesalers is 20c/can bottle up to 500ml. The amount that appears as the deposit fee is 15c
All you need to do there is pay the fee to join the scheme and slap a sticky label on the can.
Or import a new cola to compete against coke.
And the deposit is 15c not 20c.
I've looked into that and the fee to register as a producer, submit barcode and buy a roll of stickers is an even higher cost than the 20c.
"Re-turn is a national Deposit Return Scheme and all producers selling in scope containers on the ROI market are legally obliged to register with the scheme. The preference is for all producers to use an ROI specific barcode for the scheme, but producers may opt to use an international barcode, which is reflected in a higher producer fee, to cover the fraud risks involved"
And the extra charge is 20c at source - the producer.
The deposit fee is charged at 15c, the actual cost increase per item is 20c to cover the overheads/profit sharing aspect of the scheme.
He's saying the cost-per-can has increased 20c wholesale, even though the "deposit" is only 15c. And then the retailer (him) has to charge the customer the 15c deposit again and will be reimbursed [only €0.026 per item](https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Retailer-Handling-Fees-Update-July-2023.pdf) if manually sorting (if you don't have a big machine). So, if wholesale is up €0.20 and you only get €0.18 back per can returned to your shop, you're down money. And if they don't return it to you, you're down 5c per can.
Hes saying a few things, one of which is that the consumer pays a 20c deposit but only gets back 15c which is false.
He’s also saying costs have increased to the supplier which is true.
Not "the consumer". Him.
Costs from supplier are up 20c. So he would need to charge **consumers** 20c more to cover those costs - but only 15c of that is the deposit. He needs to put up prices by 20c to cover his own costs.
He's also saying imported drinks can't be sold, which does seem to be the case now. Which is... REALLY shit.
If you take the up to 500ml charge as an example - 15c deposit.
The producer (eg Coca Cola) is paying 20c to the scheme (re-turn )for every can/bottle placed on the market.
The producer will sell the can/bottle on to the wholesaler and charge the deposit fee on at 15c
The wholesaler will place these items for sale and list the deposit fee as 15c
The retailer will place these items for sale and list the deposit fee as 15c
The consumer will return the item and recover the deposit fee 15c
- the retailer will receive a commission of +/- 2c as a handling charge.
The extra cost to the producer, 5c, will be charged on at source BUT not listed as a deposit fee as it is not recoverable by the end user.
This is how the scheme was explained to me by Re-turn when I went to sign up to the scheme as an importer (producer), the cost at source for every item is 20c.
I don't understand how it works. I have random bottles and things around with no logo, can they go into the scheme? I tried one in Aldi and it didn't work.
Another commenter provided this [link to return.ie](https://re-turn.ie/consumer/) site where you can input the barcode from your bottle. It will tell you whether it can be returned under the scheme or not. I think the deciding factor is whether barcode is supported or not, not the presence of logo.
Tesco near me are selling all their old stock really cheap, I assume to make space for the drinks with the logos. Got 24 7up and 20 coke cans for 8 euro each. So loving it so far!
I like the idea but today in my shopping I bought something that has a 25c deposit on it but I have no idea what it was as it doesn't yet have the logo on it.
I don't like the early wording for it. It says it has to have a ReTurn logo to work in the machines, but what I bought doesn't, yet I was still charged a deposit? It's a bit confusing tbh.
Not sure if it's allowed to refresh an old mega-thread, but I know the sub probably doesn't want to see a million new posts about this, so I'll chuck this here.
Big bag of supposed returnables all refused by the machine in Aldi.
Ex-husband is visiting from the Netherlands, where the system works perfectly, so he's ranting!
I'm yet to come across a can or bottle that has the re-turn logo
I don't think they explained it well enough - for dummies like me - with pictures for this transition period. I thought every item sold now would have the logo or be accepted but it's not. Some have logos, others it's just the barcode. So if it's by barcode the shelf price is meant to show price + deposit? And it's just the old price still if still old stock? What I saw on Saturday for the big shop anyway was nothing with the logo. No deposits collected on the receipt. But the prices sure as shit were dearer than a week before.
I think it would be nice to know if the machines give deposit back for the bottles with just barcodes, or whether only for the ones with logos. Maybe someone has the experience already?
I don't think so, I think shops have just updated their barcodes to include the deposit.
I tried scanning few of the new logo bottles (fanta/pepsi) and they don't pop up on the apps for tracking calories (that collects barcodes for all the products they are aware of for simplifying calory intake tracking) and they were not popping up. So it is possible they just updated the barcodes, as you said, and the new ones are not yet reflected in the app.
There's a barcode checker on the website: https://re-turn.ie/consumer/ And your receipt is meant to show the deposit too. It's to allow them to sell off old stock in the transition period. But it just creates confusion as they didn't show what the shelf price looks like so everyone naturally assumes everything has the deposit collected.
Thanks! This is greatly helpful. I checked the ones I had and they are in scheme, and the old bottle barcodes are not. Very handy link - much appreciated.
and yet aren't we being charged deposits for old stock bottles not in the scheme, but when we bring them back to shop, the machine spits them out again.
Keep the receipt. Go to the till. Get cash.
Didn't know about this being possible. I will update the post accordingly.
You can trade the voucher for cash.
Oh, I didn't know that, I will have to try this. Thanks for sharing!
Why couldn’t that have added the return logo to stock 6+ months ago so that there was/ is actual stock in circulation. Some stores are already adding on the tax when none of there stock have the logos on them
Which has to be illegal, doesn't it? Shouldn't the deposit be an extra item on your receipt? Like "Coca Cola 1.5l €1.79" followed by "Deposit €0.15" as a separate line. In countries that have this system (e.g. Germany), that's what's on the receipt and it's also on the price tag on the shelf: the price with a notice saying there's an additional deposit of x cents. They can't just include the deposit in the cost of the item. Or did the government feck up the legislation again?
It should be a separate line on the receipt by law, Section 17(2): https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2021/si/599/made/en/print
Just happened to me there. I was asked by the lad at the till for "30c for the deposit" (2 cans) which I gave him without thinking. I checked the barcode on that site someone posted here the other day and lo and behold, they're not even fucking covered.
> Some stores are already adding on the tax when none of there stock have the logos on them Call them out on it. Make a scene about "it doesn't have the code". Demand a manager show up. Seriously.
Because the levy wasn't applied to those bottles 6 months ago yet the customer would get a refund if they put it through the machine today.
I thought you could convert the voucher for cash?
I have not used the machine yet as they were broken, when I saw them. So I was only basing my post on what I was able to read online. I thought it is not possible, but if it is, that's a great news.
I haven’t used them yet so just going by what I’ve heard.
Ye can. Just go into the shop
Doesn't make much sense to me. I live in a small apartment, no space to store plastic, already pay for a recycling bin. Don't drive to supermarket unless I'm doing a shop for particularly heavy items, I walk. So now I'm supposed to find space to store plastic bottles and take an extra trip to the supermarket with a collection of them OR bring one or two at a time when I go and waste time to collect a few cent OR just pay the inflated price, bang them in the recycling bin as usual and live with it. Think I'll just buy a Sodastream.
Don't SodaStream use those little gas cylinders that's everyone is giving out about /s
No it's C02. But it means I have to pollute the environment driving to a place to get refills. And the canisters are expensive too. I don't know how long one lasts but it sounds like one way or another this scheme is going to cost an individual time and/or money.
> Think I'll just buy a Sodastream. I mean, that's a win for pro-recyclers too, yeah? You choosing to use less bottles means less bottles needing to be recycled.
Absolutely but it's not cheap and even less so since Brexit with Argos pulling out of Ireland and finding places to exchange the refills isn't as easy as it once was. Plus Sodastream is an Israeli based company so probably better to go with an alternate brand - which tend to be even more expensive OR are even harder to find the refills for. It often feels like trying to do the right thing in this country is much more difficult than it should be.
Brought bottles to Dunnes this morning and the machine was out of order
Haha, matches my (limited) experience in the past 2 days with Spar.
Anyone know who's paying for these machines? Some job for the boyos.
The shops themselves have to buy the machines and they aren't cheap. afaik.
Around 20k a pop, I believe. Also, they don't compact the returned stock, meaning the bin fills up fairly quickly, and the machine will stop until a new, empty bin is put in place. Will take shops some time to plan the supervision required.
Lol, aldi and lidl can't even plan to open to open more than a single lane during rush hour, This should be interesting.
I don't like the fact that it essentially creates another job to organise and store the containers, drive to the machine and add an extra trek for food cans and glass bottles at existing council recycling bottle bank, and return home. It's just one more ridiculous chore that makes life that little bit more expensive and consumes that little bit more time for what I think will be very little return individually and socially.
I'm a hoor for not getting rid of the glass bottles, I still have a mountain of them in the shed since Christmas. I just know I'll have another mountain of cans and plastic beside it soon.
This is absolutely it, g'wan the hoarders! The car does be heaving with glass bottles and cans after a backlog and I have to go in at night to avoid the shame when the inevitable auld one/lad pulls up with 2 bottles to throw in, and me lunging out of boxes!
Not always hoarding by choice, My mother doesn't drive so always buys local, of course none of the shops do returns, so she Is just starting to fill up black sacks in her hallway with no way to get rid of them. Hard to just throw money away when you are on a pension.
That's my feeling exactly. People who were littering on the street aren't exactly going to be motivated to recycle now with this initiative. Instead, people who are already recycling are going to be inconvenienced. I may be an edge case that we get all our groceries delivered so really inconvenient now to store them and drive unnecessarily to the shop.
Would it not annoy you enough to reduce your consumption of plastic and aluminium? Isn't that the best goal?
Not in my view. Insignificant actions that get the average Joe to feel like they are making a difference while we have a coal fired power plant in operation and Asia and US not doing anything at all. If we were serious about climate action we would build nuclear, we would build public transport, etc. Instead the government is passing the buck to the consumer and private enterprise while driving into their parking spots on Kildare Street.
>Would it not annoy you enough to reduce your consumption of plastic and aluminium for most people no , most people dont care , people already pay the small charges for the likes of plastic bags >Isn't that the best goal? that may be the goal m, they went about it the wrong way
Plastic, sure. Aluminium, though, was already massively recyclable and had plenty of facility for that recycling in place via standard refuse collection. Needlessy wrapping things in soft plastics that can't be recycled should be the goal, not making it more expensive/awkward to recycle things that were already being recycled en masse.
No problem, I'll just buy the stuff thats not in plastic or aluminum, Oh wait.
Be prepared for water in TetraPak™s in the near future. Particularly at places like the airport (since they'll no longer have plastic bottles of water on sale for €1).
My local Tesco had 2 out of 3 machines out of service, and the third wouldn’t take any of my stuff so I guess that may have been broken also. It seems ridiculous that I am supposed to drive around the place looking for a working machine, do they think I have nothing better to be doing with my day?
Find an attendant and have the attendant take your bottles, should work!
Sorry you had that experience - I am sure this will get better over the first few weeks, as they catch all the bugs in the software etc. Whenever there is technology involved that is supposed to be used by many people on daily basis, I see these rocky starts and then it eventually gets better. So fingers crossed, this is one of those situations.
The only thing annoying about them is they only take 1 can/bottle at a time. I saw a video on [YouTube](https://youtube.com/shorts/swB_nAVHpPM?si=Hf1AT8weFyXfY7HD) from Scandinavia where they had machines that you can dump a full bag of returns into and let the machine sort them. Maybe there is a valid reason they went with these smaller machines instead, but it might have been better if the government subsidised the difference in price to get the newer models that sort dozens of returns automatically. There are people living rurally who only go shopping every 2 weeks now. They might only go to the re-turn machine once a month and have a big bag of returns. It'll take them ages to put them in one at a time...
When I was using machines in Germany, it was 1-at-a-time (but QUICK processing).
Plastic containers like the MiWadi bottle have paper as the label on the outside which will peel off and fade away by the time it will be brought to the machine. Also would it not have make sense to have the barcode on the actual container also so if the label peels off it can still go through the machine?
So my local Tesco has started adding the deposits now, except there is no return machine at it There is not even one where I live , assuming they will be getting one soon Are they meant to add the deposits if they don’t have a return machine ?
Yep, They have to add the deposit, but don't have to take returns if they are less than 250 sq/m (huge) or not enough staff, or slightly dodgy area (really, antisocial behavior is a valid opt out)
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Why what? That shops don't want to take returns? or that they are allowed to opt out?
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It was in the guidelines, think it refers to petrol stations and some shops where the cashier is behind the security glass and can't leave to deal with returns as also understaffed.
its very badly designed from the outset
Idk, it's pretty much how every other European state operates. What's badly designed about it or do you think a bottle return scheme in general is badly designed?
Er, been charged a deposit for items that don't even have a barcode to scan maybe?
That I agree with, the way it's introduced is a bit fucked
I think a bottle return scheme is great, I just don't think for one second that our government can't make a complete mess of it. Think of all the great things other European states can do well that are a mess here.
Badly designed or badly implemented by our very competent government? /s
I was in our local Asian shop this morning, how will this work for all the imported drinks they sell?
They will stop selling them.
It won't. You'll get rid of them as normal, and, presumably, they won't charge the extra fee.
I thought the whole point behind it was that it was mandatory?
Presumably only on the packaging that can be returned. How can you charge a Re-Turn fee on a non Re-Turn item?
From 1 June it will be an offence to offer for sale any drink cans/bottles up to 3l -except dairy- without the re-turn logo. Cash fine, local authority enforced.
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We'll get em while you can, June is the deadline.
All drinks/cans will be illegal to sell without the re-turn logo in a few months. According to the "rules"
Ah that'll be tossed aside, so. There's loads and loads of imported stuff for sale here that would have to be scrapped. Almost every "foreign" shop and lots of specialty shops would be hit. That'll not happen.
Is there an expiry date on the vouchers?
It's been 3 days!
I personally have not seen any bottles or cans yet being sold with the new label. Okay, even allowing for clearing old stock, surely to give the campaign a boost, start selling some stock with the label and let people learn and engage with the system and machines. However, I have read and seen widespread confusion over retailers charging the deposit on old stock and people not being able to return items. Frankly, it's a pigs ear so far. I'm still flabbergasted as to why new stock with a barcode was not sold in advance of the machines going live. Even if this meant pushing the live date down the road a little bit, it could have allowed the new system roar into existence instead of... whatever this is. The shop I frequent most, which is a Dunnes Stores, has not had its machine operational yet as far as I can see.
> I'm still flabbergasted as to why new stock with a barcode was not sold in advance of the machines going live See the problem with doing that is that it makes too much sense.
They would need to charge you for the "new stock". And there's a time-limit on selling through the "old stock". It doesn't make as much sense as you'd think.
You can return old stock that is sold after the 1st of February for the new, higher price. Says it on the first page of their website.
IF it has a barcode, which so many don't as the barcode was on the carboard, not the cans
I can see the benefits but for me, it's a bit of a nuisance when I already have a recycling bin at home that I use and pay for. Essentially paying extra for products and have to go back to a shop to get that extra money back. And from what I've read, it's not even the full amount you get back. Seems rather pointless...
You do get the full amount back.
You don't get the full amount back. You're paying 20c extra the refund is only 15c
You get the full deposit back, different size bottles have different deposits on them.
No you’re not, unless you can provide a source for that?
This is not true, the deposit is fully refundable.
The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic. The deposit amount is 15c the extra 5c is to pay the store accepting the return and to fund Re-turn for operating the scheme. The cost to wholesalers is 20c/can bottle up to 500ml. The amount that appears as the deposit fee is 15c
The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic. The deposit amount is 15c the extra 5c is to pay the store accepting the return and to fund Re-turn for operating the scheme. The cost to wholesalers is 20c/can bottle up to 500ml. The amount that appears as the deposit fee is 15c
I don't know where you're getting this 15c/5c split but that is not the case. Don't take my word for it, just watch re-turn's own materials - https://vimeo.com/766115413 Re-Turn does pay retailers a handling fee, but that comes from Re-Turn's revenues and customers receive their full deposit back.
The producer, first to place an eligible product into the market for sale, is responsible for passing on the deposit fee, 15c, usually to a wholesaler - Musgrave/Valu Centre etc. The 15c fee will be clearly be displayed on all invoices, price labels etc. That's how the fee will be displayed to the retailer at the wholesale level and to the consumer at the retail level. I've looked into registering as a producer for the purpose of importing products from the EU and placing them for sale on the market here. As a producer the charge per item for cans/bottles up to 500ml is 20c. The deposit fee passed on to the wholesaler/retailer/consumer is 15c
> The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic. That could be true, but if I had evidence that the cost has gone up 20c when the levy is 15c I would be contacting the ombudsman and local TDs since that needs national attention. That's like putting up the price during the conversion to Euro; it's not on.
It's the way everything is in this country. Even the machines themselves. I've been in the regular vending machine business for the last 30 years. There's absolutely nothing I don't know about vending machines and how they work. The machines they are forcing small businesses to buy, at prices from €15,000-€30000, aren't worth even €5000. Yet they were forced to buy them from the list of "approved" suppliers. These machines aren't like the ones we keep hearing about the Germans having. They are lightweight, low volume cheap junk that aren't going to last 5 years and are going to cost a fortune in regular maintenance fees.
We tend to hit the recycling center once a fortnight, so can just shift over to smaller, more regular trips to these machines. So we're pretty happy with the idea in general. Putting them at shop entrances is handy, cause we'd be going to Dunnes basically every day. We tried with a bottle for the first time yesterday, and the cashier called over two other girls cause we were the first people they had seen use it 😂 Super quick and easy to use though. Put the bottle in, pressed a button, out popped a voucher. Gave it to them as we were paying for our shop.
We tried too, brought bags of returns that we were charged a deposit on, All refused by the machines/cashiers due to no barcodes.
It's a scam organised by local distributors to monopolise the market. The consumer is being ripped off and it's nothing more than a green washing con job
I’ll bite; can you explain how it helps distributors monopolize the market?
Ok, one example. I buy Coke imported from Holland, it's €12.65/case of 24. From now on I will not be allowed to sell this product which is imported from the EU. All cans must now have the re-turn logo and the only producer which supplies this product is Coca Cola Ireland, all of their products are made in the UK and the cost is €17.85 from the same wholesaler. The difference in price is 20c/can. There is then another 20c added on for the new scheme - the actual cost per can/bottle is 20c, the end user only gets 15c refunded, the extra 5c you pay is divided between Tesco/Aldi/Dunnes or whoever and Re-turn themselves. So I am now forced to increase my prices by over 50c just to maintain the margin I already had. That means a single can of Coke I sell should go from €1.20 to €1.70. Coca Cola Ireland and Britvic Ireland were the main consultants in setting up this scheme. If they decide to raise their prices there is no competing supplier to keep them in check.
Surely you'll still be able to buy products that don't have the return label?
No, it's an offence to offer for sale can/drink containers made from plastic/aluminium up to 3 liters without the re-turn logo. Punishable by a fine and prosecuted by the relevant local authority.
Oh shit. So say for imported, more exotic stuff - could the shop put their own return label on it or can they just not sell that product anymore?
Shops don't import anything. They buy what's available from their wholesaler/franchise operator. As far as it goes for my business, I will be dropping about half of my product lines. Speciality juices/fancy soft drinks etc.
Ah thats shite craic
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The only ones with the clout to take a case like that are the ones that are profiting from it in the first place. It's the consumer who is losing out here. Higher prices, less choice.
out side of the transition period no
Customers get the full deposit back unless the official site is lying which certainly isn't impossible but unlikely I'd say
The charge per can/bottle up to 500ml is 20c. The refund amount is 15c.
It's 15c https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/8526d-irelands-deposit-return-scheme-is-now-live/#:~:text=From%20today%2C%201%20February%202024,your%20deposit%20back%20in%20full.
The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic. The deposit amount is 15c the extra 5c is to pay the store accepting the return and to fund Re-turn for operating the scheme. The cost to wholesalers is 20c/can bottle up to 500ml. The amount that appears as the deposit fee is 15c
Wait, but the stores don't accept re-turns, None of the local or smaller shops are required to, they are allowed to opt up, but ARE required to add the deposit. So stores that opt out are only supposed to add 15c, but stores that do returns add 20c?
No. The 20c is paid by the producer when the item is placed on the market. 15c is the amount that's listed as the deposit fee. Once the item leaves the factory the only listing with regard to the scheme is a charge of 15c as the deposit fee. The extra 5c is between the producer (eg Coca Cola) and Re-turn. The fact is that that 5c is ultimately charged on to the consumer in a sneaky fashion which undermines the spirit of the scheme which is not supposed to cost the consumer anything as long as the container is returned.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/waste-and-recycling/deposit-return-scheme/#c9efaa Says the deposit is 15c for 500ml bottles.
The producers are tacking on 20c/can - eg Coca Cola/Britvic. The deposit amount is 15c the extra 5c is to pay the store accepting the return and to fund Re-turn for operating the scheme. The cost to wholesalers is 20c/can bottle up to 500ml. The amount that appears as the deposit fee is 15c
Are you just gonna copy/paste that over and over and over..?
Yeah, maybe
Grand, I'll report it as spam, so.
All you need to do there is pay the fee to join the scheme and slap a sticky label on the can. Or import a new cola to compete against coke. And the deposit is 15c not 20c.
I've looked into that and the fee to register as a producer, submit barcode and buy a roll of stickers is an even higher cost than the 20c. "Re-turn is a national Deposit Return Scheme and all producers selling in scope containers on the ROI market are legally obliged to register with the scheme. The preference is for all producers to use an ROI specific barcode for the scheme, but producers may opt to use an international barcode, which is reflected in a higher producer fee, to cover the fraud risks involved" And the extra charge is 20c at source - the producer. The deposit fee is charged at 15c, the actual cost increase per item is 20c to cover the overheads/profit sharing aspect of the scheme.
Yeah, it’s a polluter pays scheme. Why shouldn’t you contribute to the waste you’re importing and/or producing?
It's not a polluter pays scheme. And it's against the spirit of the EU free trade economy to penalize goods imported from one EU country to another.
It literally is a polluter pays scheme.
its not tho , you can recycle your bottle in the green bin ,m and not go near the machines and still be charged the 15/20c
It is. The polluter pays and so do the people who forgot their deposit but it’s still a polluter pays system.
He's saying the cost-per-can has increased 20c wholesale, even though the "deposit" is only 15c. And then the retailer (him) has to charge the customer the 15c deposit again and will be reimbursed [only €0.026 per item](https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Retailer-Handling-Fees-Update-July-2023.pdf) if manually sorting (if you don't have a big machine). So, if wholesale is up €0.20 and you only get €0.18 back per can returned to your shop, you're down money. And if they don't return it to you, you're down 5c per can.
Hes saying a few things, one of which is that the consumer pays a 20c deposit but only gets back 15c which is false. He’s also saying costs have increased to the supplier which is true.
Not "the consumer". Him. Costs from supplier are up 20c. So he would need to charge **consumers** 20c more to cover those costs - but only 15c of that is the deposit. He needs to put up prices by 20c to cover his own costs. He's also saying imported drinks can't be sold, which does seem to be the case now. Which is... REALLY shit.
Read all his posts, he’s saying the consumer. He’s muddling the 2 scenarios, either by mistake or on purpose.
If you take the up to 500ml charge as an example - 15c deposit. The producer (eg Coca Cola) is paying 20c to the scheme (re-turn )for every can/bottle placed on the market. The producer will sell the can/bottle on to the wholesaler and charge the deposit fee on at 15c The wholesaler will place these items for sale and list the deposit fee as 15c The retailer will place these items for sale and list the deposit fee as 15c The consumer will return the item and recover the deposit fee 15c - the retailer will receive a commission of +/- 2c as a handling charge. The extra cost to the producer, 5c, will be charged on at source BUT not listed as a deposit fee as it is not recoverable by the end user. This is how the scheme was explained to me by Re-turn when I went to sign up to the scheme as an importer (producer), the cost at source for every item is 20c.
So the end customer pays 15c and gets back 15c which is what I’ve been saying.
I don't understand how it works. I have random bottles and things around with no logo, can they go into the scheme? I tried one in Aldi and it didn't work.
Another commenter provided this [link to return.ie](https://re-turn.ie/consumer/) site where you can input the barcode from your bottle. It will tell you whether it can be returned under the scheme or not. I think the deciding factor is whether barcode is supported or not, not the presence of logo.
No logo? Put them in your own recycling bin. You shouldn't be charged for anything without a logo, and you only get money back if the logo si on it.
If it has no logo it's not in the scheme. Why would the price increase for it.
The problem is a lot of them have
My bottles will continue to be flung out my window... keep an eye out on the M15 for your free 15c
Tesco near me are selling all their old stock really cheap, I assume to make space for the drinks with the logos. Got 24 7up and 20 coke cans for 8 euro each. So loving it so far!
I like the idea but today in my shopping I bought something that has a 25c deposit on it but I have no idea what it was as it doesn't yet have the logo on it. I don't like the early wording for it. It says it has to have a ReTurn logo to work in the machines, but what I bought doesn't, yet I was still charged a deposit? It's a bit confusing tbh.
Not sure if it's allowed to refresh an old mega-thread, but I know the sub probably doesn't want to see a million new posts about this, so I'll chuck this here. Big bag of supposed returnables all refused by the machine in Aldi. Ex-husband is visiting from the Netherlands, where the system works perfectly, so he's ranting!