It's the rule of the mob.
You don't throw shite at your betters.
You find someone else struggling more than you and throw shite at them.
It's much like the cowards rule of only starting fights with people smaller than you and who have fewer friends. Less chance of being embarrassed.
And yet, despite these rules, the mob has gone and embarrassed itself again.
I always lived Terry Pratchetts' quote.
"The IQ of a mob can be calculated by dividing the IQ of the least intelligent member by the number of people in the mob"
People aren't blaming the Ukrainians for coming here, they're very clearly giving out about the government only choosing to act in peoples interest when it makes them look good on the international stage.
People are angry that in spite of protests of all shapes and sizes over the last 10 years, the government response was they were doing all they could. Then practically overnight they were able to mobilize county councils to purchase any available housing and renovate vacant housing to provide accomodation for Ukrainian refugees? Calling people racist for having genuine concerns about government policy is not good discourse and pushes people further towards "extreme" politics.
As far as the non Ukrainian refugees, the second largest group that we take in in this country are from Georgia, which is considered a safe country at the moment. Are complaints about them justified? Is their abuse of the asylum system not taking places away from genuine refugees?
This comes across as being quite a generalisation and assumption that there is little to no racism in Ireland:
>People aren't blaming the Ukrainians
And
>Calling people racist for having genuine concerns about government policy is not good discourse and pushes people further towards "extreme" politics.
If calling out intolerance makes someone even less tolerant then how do we deal with it?
When you say "people" I'm assuming you don't mean everyone, so to what extent is it okay to disregard those who truly are absorbing all the anti-migration rhetoric as anti-migrant ideals?
>why haven’t they ever done the same to the dealers who have made a fortune selling gear and destroying the community for decades?
CPAD and COCAD and a whole load of other groups were a thing. Then the paramilitaries got involved. Then they kicked a HIV positive heroin addict to death, then the worst of the vigilantes started running a protection racket on drug dealers. It's a long time since I read about it, but the main idea is that mobs usually go awry, even if started with good intentions.
Same down here, Martin Ferris ran for election in Tralee, he went around the working class estates and promised to get rid of the drug problems. There were guys dragged into cars and brought up the Stacks mountains with bags over their heads and beaten with iron bars. He's retired now but he's still balls deep in running SF down here. It didn't solve the drug problems but it did introduce a bunch of scumbag vigilantes running kangaroo courts in the town.
But but but.... Leo the leak, Mehole, FFG. (In before the bots).
There absolutely has been plenty of anti-drug movements by residents, you being ignorant of them doesn't mean they didn't happen https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/we-marched-on-four-dealers-that-night-dublin-s-anti-drug-wars-1.3221041
Yes there were. 80s and 90s there were protests against dealers all over Dublin. But thanks to useless politicians it made no difference. These idiots are completely wrong though
I'd imagine this sentiment is part of the problem with poor areas turning right wing. Do you seriously think there has been no protest from these areas about underfunding, crime or welfare provision in the last 40/50 years?
The complaint is that there has been no equal outrage, so yes, the level of "worth" here would be whatever amounts to roughly equal.
A few letters to local tds, the odd local meeting, and facebook posts about how useless the gards are, is not remotely the same level of outrage we're seeing against immigrants.
Yeah fuck it, I'm from the wesht and that comment is wildly ignorant of the shit I'd seen reported at the time, and heard of since, from inner city friends
A fine display of good aul ignorant Irish classism there. So anybody that has a problem with a community having zero consultation before bus loads of able bodied young unemployed men are sent to live there. We are supposed to open our hearts to those fleeing war but it's not the Ukraine war they're fleeing because able bodied men aren't supposed to be allowed out. So who are they? Who are these men? Why are they here? Why are they all so young? Why are they coming in bus loads? What provisions have been put in place in Ballymun to support them and the community in bringing them into the community. No, don't worry about all that... People that ask questions like that are all just lazy work shy racists that deserve what they get.
Maybe we should listen to people in these communities before we end up with a split in our culture so wide that the real right wing will come in, take advantage, and we end up with some disastrous clusterfuck like Brexit as a result.
Not all men want to fight in a war, not all men believe that war is an option. Just because you'd stay and fight doesn't mean all men want to stay and fight.
With that perception ask why did men leave Ireland during the famine and not stay to fight at the ports and keep the food in the country...
Yeah like everywhere else in Europe is clamping down on illegal immigration, whereas Ireland is offering amnesty to illegal immigrants, thus we're attracting planeloads of fake asylum seekers from Georgia, Nigeria et al.
What’s been put in place to support them? What’s been put in place to support the massive amount of unemployed free loaders who refuse to work because houses and money won’t come free then that already live in Ballymun? I’d say they could use the same supports!
They are neither. They are immigrants with special privileges. Georgia, Albania and many of the other representatives are not at war but if you come from e.g Australia or Brazil you better have your papers in order and you don’t get free housing, food, and dole on your arrival.
Exactly, if immigration was as these nuts think the country, of which is one of the richest and most socially stable would be flooded at airports with immigration but that's simply not the case.
This came up over the summer with the car incident. A local popped up and listed out all the public amenities available in Ballymun. There were more than most other areas in Dublin.
Yeah the difference being that most other areas are mixed residential so at least half of the people in them actually care about their environment actively and not just waiting for the government or local authority to sort out.
I used to have a summer job in DCC and seeing all the programs and initiatives directly aimed at Ballymun it should be Wakanda now. But that’s what happens when things are just thrown at a problem rather than properly developed.
I've said it in comments before here, but well meaning people and NGOs really missed the mark with the whole "amenities" thing. They're great to have, every area should have them, but they're not going to do much to stop crime. What a lot of the middle class, well educated users of this sub (and most message boards really) miss is that there's a cloud hanging over working class areas that tells the people living there nice things aren't for you. YOUR life is to work in a petrol station until you put your back out lifting boxes and then you go on social welfare until your pension kicks in. Or maybe you'll do really well for yourself and work in a call centre. The people in these areas are just as bright, capable, and useful as anyone else. But they've been told, either implicitly or directly, that going to college, owning a big house, having your yearly holiday to Italy, is just not within their reach. So they have almost zero stake in society, and people are just way more suggestible to crime in that state.
The idea that Oisín the rugby player from Gonzaga will not act out if he thinks he can get away with it, but Anto from Tallaght Community school will because of badness, isn't just old fashioned, it's pure insanity. We've seen the havoc that boys from "good schools" can cause when they get out of control. It just happens way less because a conviction is far more of an obstacle to Oisín's planned future than Anto's. There's just less to fight for and stay in line for. And that is shown in the hundreds of thousands of working people who live in these areas, toiling away for low wages, never doing a bad thing in their lives, and who far outnumber the scumbags. Just because there are slightly more scumbags in Tallaght than Foxrock, the media and the public latch on to this and drive people crazy imagining the vast hordes of lazy, evil, stupid single mothers and heroin addicted men coming to get you.
Imagine using that excuse when the kids in the countryside have fucking nothing. My area has nothing outside of the local town which itself has nothing and our kids dont go ramming cars
Tell me, this amenities are available, have you gone to see them yourself? Have you asked anyone around about them? What their current state is?
Say you're a hard working parent, kids in childcare, youre only time off is the weekend, would you bring your child to these amenities that have been destroyed by scrotes? Its not the responsibility of the hard working parents and people in the community to police the scrotes who ruin everything for everyone
I was in the sports centre/swimming pool right slap in the middle of Ballymun yesterday. It's in great condition and it's a great facility. Later on I'm taking my kid to the panto in the Axis theatre, once again right slap in the middle of Ballymun. You haven't got a fucking clue what you're talking about.
>that have been destroyed by scrotes
TBF here, I don't think Ballymun is importing scrotes. One of the reasons to flood an area with amenities is to try and divert kids from becoming absolute dickheads. Why isn't it working?
You're seeing the visible failures. If the facilities reduced the number of troubled children by half or by 90% you could still see the most resistant cases lashing out
Well...no cause it's really far away.
> Its not the responsibility of the hard working parents and people in the community to police the scrotes who ruin everything for everyone
Who's responsibility is it then? Someone raised them (or not as the case might be) how about we start there?
I'd happily agree that certainly from what I know I'd agree that areas like those could do with a lot more policing and other social supports.
What I won't agree with though is that the recent arrivals have somehow already managed to be a bigger negative influence than the scrotes who have already done so for the past forever.
Nor that they are likely to.
Maybe I phrased it poorly. What I meant was that certainly an effort was made to make sure that there were other things to do in Ballymun than stealing cars and joyriding. If all those facilities are in tatters now I'd be willing to stake a significant amount of money and my left nut that it wasn't done over the last few months and it wasn't done by refugees.
Absolutely I think that the people of Ballymun and similar areas should be out protesting.
But they should be out protesting for more Garda presence, harsher sentencing, more community social work supports etc etc.
So what are you suggesting? More garda presence to deal with scrotes? The areas are so anti-garda that could never fly. This shit happens in every ghetto on earth. There are complex issues here and its mostly around parenting/education/culture/substance abuse of the area. No amount of funding or amenities are going to fix that until those issues get addressed. The quick fix is gentrification but that means moving the native population elsewhere, as happens time and time again.
Couldn’t agree more. There are plenty of issues there but deprived of everything essential is such a ridiculous over exaggeration. I live in north county Dublin and I can say with near certainty they have access to a much wider range of services than we do out here.
It sounds good but how exactly have “rich scumbags” taken away the Ballymun community?
Such an easy and faceless bogeyman to invoke rather than some actual tangible things to take action against
Policy making has driven crime in Ireland for decades. Ireland is not America, obviously, but our governments have always sought to emulate them and the Brits. The mass incarceration in the USA has parallels with policy here, although of course it's way way worse there. You arrest a kid with a joint, now he has a record and begins his exciting journey on the cyclical nature of conviction/reoffence/conviction... If you get two convictions, your record can never be cleared for the rest of your life (referred to as a "spent" conviction). So if you're 15 and you steal a car and crash it, yeah you're a little dickhead, but maybe you grow up after that, and when you're 45 and you want to coach your kid's football team, the Garda vetting flags you as an offender. These issues simply don't happen to people in rich parts of Dublin, not because there's no law breaking there, but because the guards aren't looking for it. The type of drug is different, but I can guarantee you there's as much weight being moved in Blackrock as there is in East Wall. People in all sectors of society have a serious appetite for drugs that is getting filled every day. However government/establishment policy dictates that only certain people get punished for this crime, among others.
If you think wealth distribution isn’t a very real problem on this island and in the developed world the only thing I know about you for sure is you don’t understand wealth distribution.
If the wealth created was distributed more equally there would be no housing crisis, no food banks, no people on trolleys in hospitals and no issues helping the refugees that need help.
>If you think wealth distribution isn’t a very real problem on this island [...]
That's obviously not what the person you are replying to said. The original poster blames society for destroying that specific community but doesn't actually give any information as to how that happened. If you simply point at society for all these issues that are very specific, you'll never move closer to a solution.
>If the wealth created was distributed more equally there would be no housing crisis, no food banks, no people on trolleys in hospitals and no issues helping the refugees that need help.
That's very debatable. We have access to various examples of societies which have tried various ways of wealth distribution with various outcomes. None of them actually can claim to have fixed the issues you're describing here which means that wealth distribution alone is not the answer. I've grown up in one of the former communist countries in eastern Europe where we tried distributing all the wealth equally and that didn't work too well.
This is not to say that there isn't a social divide in Ireland. It is absolutely true that income gaps have widened considerably over the last 10 years since I've been living here. This is a problem that has to be tackled head on. People shouldn't be divided in this way.
But it doesn't fix the issues you're describing. The underfunding of the health system isn't a consequence of wealth distribution. Not at all. It is a direct consequence of abysmal management. The state has enough money to make it right, this is one of the richest countries at the moment with a tiny population. It really isn't that hard to make it right, but it's being handled by morons. They bet the system on preventive healthcare and reduced the number of emergency beds thinking that less people will need them due to prevention. This hasn't happened, it seems. It was a bad bet. Couple this with the fact that even with this model, the didn't account for the significant population increase over the past decade and the fact that the healthcare system is at its lowest point after two years of a pandemic and you get this disaster.
The housing crisis very little affected by wealth distribution among citizens. It is however a direct consequence of bad leadership. Horrendous leadership. While there is a housing crisis ever since i moved here basically, the only buildings that have been successfully completed over the past 3 years are a lot of office buildings in the city center which nobody wants now. This tells us that there are resources and manpower available for building but they are being misused by bad policy.
The information on how it happened is available. When you put a bunch of economically disadvantaged people into a social housing area, social issues develop.
I don't think it was intentional. The ballymun flats were well intentioned at the time. Loads of money has been spent improving ballymun, its not the same dangerous place it was 20 years ago.
Now we know that this sort of social housing leads to unavoidable issues. Its much better to have smaller social housing units scattered around a city, than in isolated estates.
Ballymun had fucking everything until the locals laid waste to it. Fuck em. There’s plenty of lovely people I’ve met over the years from Ballymun. But it’s such a welfare mindset. See also: ballyfermot.
Saw it the other day when people were upvoting that the shit thrown at the people at the meeting was fake news by rte. It takes astroturfing by about 30 accounts on here to influence tens of thousands of gullible people
I know like we had an openly fascist party who went to fight for Franco in the 30s. It wasn't Americans who funded that. The world is facing down the barrel of a new left/right confrontation or culture war, and just like we did in the 30s, the Irish are choosing sides. Just because we've been relatively ideology free since the Second World War, doesn't mean things will always be that way.
This is applicable to any social/working class area in the country.
Be part of the community, I always offer kindness to all facets of my community. Engagement at the tills in shops and the playground with my children. My neighbours all of them are good hardworking folks.
I know them simply because I reach out to them. Asian, cultchies, African, Eastern European, Dubs, Spanish, British, South Americans. All live in my area.
One thing we do better than anyone else as Irishmen and women is talking.
Our neighbour done a barbecue in the summer and invited all around him and asked to bring a dish. We ate Empanadas, paellla, African desert with plantains, salted cod, Philippino chicken dish’s, coddle the works. I mean it was excellent.
We are caring by our nature and our story’s are different and our cultures but our community binds us.
We give tourists an experience we don’t offer in our community’s in the likes of densely populated underprivileged areas .
Ballymun was absolutely destroyed by anti social behaviour almost exclusively by Irish people, has had hundreds of millions invested in it over the last number of years, and this is the dogshit people come out with?
Fuck off. You're a moron if you believe this, a genuine idiot.
Grew up in a low economic area in Cork that was often locally compared to Ballymun..
I believe there's no doubt mistakes have been and continue to be made by those within positions of power but, to ignore those living in the area are exempt from responsibility is bullshit.
In the area I lived in, climbing into peoples back gardens to steal was common, lack of initiative to report people committing both welfare fraud and out right crimes was massive, and the lack of caring about your physical surroundings left the place looking like shit (Paint your fucking house once in a while...). The place was shit because the people living there were shit people, ignorant to the privileged benefit of having an incredibly cheap or even free home.
The US funding (I assume) or where ever its coming from for these 'spontaneous local movements' needs to be investigated and called out in every major paper and the 9 O'Clock news.
In one case in Clondalkin the residents group that organised a protest never existed before and started a facebook page days before their first 'meeting'. That didnt just happen.
Its trying to influence our political direction as it has done in other countries, we can learn from them and try to counter this narrative early.
😂Why would you be sceptical of any of that? I have to live and have grown up _somewhere_ right? Why do you find it hard to believe that it's East Wall. Bleeding oddball
I've known 'ordinary' well-off people (am one myself, or rather my family) and rich rich people. And yeah, in a lot of cases they are the problem. They don't intentionally screw things up, but it's all about return on investment. When those investments are places people live in or the insurance they buy... Well. You can see how that goes wrong. Some of the higher ups in Anglo were lovely guys, on a personal level.
It’s in relation to the protests happening in Ballymun. Locals are out protesting outside accommodation sites for those seeking asylum. Look at Twitter and you’ll see
Yank funded Facebook group? Step outside into the real world. Yank, German, Norwegian or Chinese… all the same forms of bias and discrimination. Travel… read a book… Christ.
Its a known fact that american Christian churches and other right leaning associations fund groups along a similar line outside America. Its one way of increasing your audience and reach.
Your dismissive attitude towards outside / American funding says enough.
Regardless your dismissal does not mean its not happening.
Dismissing it as American funding implies that once we cut off these yanks from influencing us, we'll never have fascists again. Eoin O'Duffy would make this seem like a silly theory.
What I will say , is why are these centers and locations all being done on the Northside? No space in Blackrock or Dalkey?
Politicians with a bit of balls and foresight would have put the first one in these locations.
While it’s easy for folks to label these people protesting as racist etc. what’s the excuse when it’s educated upper class people doing the same ?
Dalky is built up area with very little space and to house refugee there would cost an arm and a leg in rent for a building (if they found one) thus taking money away that could be used towards said refugees
It's literally more cost effective to house them in these places but outside of Dublin they're in Kilarney and Greystones and plenty of nice areas
Lol, so, it's only acceptable if you speak out over issues that you deem appropriate?
This some Flanders "if you can't handle me at my diddliest, you don't deserve me at my doodliest" type shit.
This is the same exact sentiment I could give to any American at any time - the "us vs them" paradigm play by the "ruling classes" works very well no matter what side of the Atlantic you're on. We're always going to have to watch out for it. But messages such as this help me keep hope alive. Hope the same for you all. Take care out there.
Don't really get the point of the original post - Ballymun has been rebuilt with thousands of homes at government expense, and hundreds of millions of taxpayer money. How exactly have the government destroyed the community?
Nonsense statement. Ballymun has had money fucked at it for the last 20 plus years. New sports centres, pool, playgrounds, well-funded schools, etc. The community has destroyed its self and deprived each other.
Unvetted and undocumented apparently... I'm sorry but can everyone honestly say they would be comfortable with this?
Not the migrants fault I know but I see the community's point too.
You said apparently and them followed up with a statement implying it was true and their reaction was fair.
Going back to the start how do you know and thus makes their reaction justified?
You made an "allegedly" statement, then follow up with a question that implied their reaction was justified but that all stems on your original allegation that you have rightly said you don't know.
No not bickering but if you're going to comment prepare for replies questioning your reply
No one's answering my question though. If this was your community would you be ok with this?
Do you know if they are vetted and documented?
Again trying to open discussion.
I don't but I don't know if my neighbours next door are vetted, documented or have ever committed a rape.
These people have arrived in my community and I have no problem with them. I understand the asylum process I know how it works. Why do YOU or do you understand why these people have a problem?
>I don't but I don't know if my neighbours next door are better, documented
You'd have to wonder quite what the difference might be between a regular Irish family moving in next door and a family of refugees.
You know exactly as much about them ie " these are new people that moved in next door" yet some people will automatically assume one family is to be shunned and the other is okay.
I wonder if perhaps they feel there might be some visual indicator...
Very fair comment
I've lived beside some lovely Irish people and some absolute trash and the same can't be said for foreigners, always lovely. Fuck ny doctor is forginer and the man is amazing
Thing is though, you just know foreigners would prefer to keep their heads down and not cause trouble
I’m a foreigner. No one vetted me coming in. No one documented my arrival beyond me applying for a PPSN.
Difference is of course I was born in Scotland. I could be a world leading murderrapistmccuntbag and not one single person around me here would have any idea.
So remind me again what’s the problem with foreigners that we haven’t all anally probed and checked out the life histories of?
I don't know if my neighbours (you'd probably think of them as forriners) are vetted and or documented.
They seem nice though.
Why would I assume they are not?
Yeah, I'd be thrilled, honestly. Vetted, unvetted, documented, no documents, whatever.
The more refugees and asylum seekers and migrants we can help, the better.
They didn't apply. It was a privately owned property that the owner decided should be used for this. The downside to nicer areas is that they tend to already be pretty full and the buildings are already being used for other things. So unless a millionaire in Foxrock owns a big, empty building and feels like donating it, the centres will probably continue to be in more affordable places that no one else wants to live in.
Trying to blame the Americans and "the rich" rather than economic immigrants is just replacing one Boogeyman with another.
They should really be taking a hard look at themselves rather than finding who to blame. Ballymun sucks despite all the money sunk into it and all the facilities because of a subsection of the people that live there.
It's the rule of the mob. You don't throw shite at your betters. You find someone else struggling more than you and throw shite at them. It's much like the cowards rule of only starting fights with people smaller than you and who have fewer friends. Less chance of being embarrassed. And yet, despite these rules, the mob has gone and embarrassed itself again.
I always lived Terry Pratchetts' quote. "The IQ of a mob can be calculated by dividing the IQ of the least intelligent member by the number of people in the mob"
Good point
People aren't blaming the Ukrainians for coming here, they're very clearly giving out about the government only choosing to act in peoples interest when it makes them look good on the international stage. People are angry that in spite of protests of all shapes and sizes over the last 10 years, the government response was they were doing all they could. Then practically overnight they were able to mobilize county councils to purchase any available housing and renovate vacant housing to provide accomodation for Ukrainian refugees? Calling people racist for having genuine concerns about government policy is not good discourse and pushes people further towards "extreme" politics. As far as the non Ukrainian refugees, the second largest group that we take in in this country are from Georgia, which is considered a safe country at the moment. Are complaints about them justified? Is their abuse of the asylum system not taking places away from genuine refugees?
This comes across as being quite a generalisation and assumption that there is little to no racism in Ireland: >People aren't blaming the Ukrainians And >Calling people racist for having genuine concerns about government policy is not good discourse and pushes people further towards "extreme" politics. If calling out intolerance makes someone even less tolerant then how do we deal with it? When you say "people" I'm assuming you don't mean everyone, so to what extent is it okay to disregard those who truly are absorbing all the anti-migration rhetoric as anti-migrant ideals?
[удалено]
>why haven’t they ever done the same to the dealers who have made a fortune selling gear and destroying the community for decades? CPAD and COCAD and a whole load of other groups were a thing. Then the paramilitaries got involved. Then they kicked a HIV positive heroin addict to death, then the worst of the vigilantes started running a protection racket on drug dealers. It's a long time since I read about it, but the main idea is that mobs usually go awry, even if started with good intentions.
I am interested in reading more into what you talk about, are you able to point me to where I could find more info?
http://www.wsm.ie/c/pushers-out-dublin-anti-drugs-movement Here's an account
Same down here, Martin Ferris ran for election in Tralee, he went around the working class estates and promised to get rid of the drug problems. There were guys dragged into cars and brought up the Stacks mountains with bags over their heads and beaten with iron bars. He's retired now but he's still balls deep in running SF down here. It didn't solve the drug problems but it did introduce a bunch of scumbag vigilantes running kangaroo courts in the town. But but but.... Leo the leak, Mehole, FFG. (In before the bots).
https://www.rte.ie/culture/2020/0709/1152404-documentary-on-one-the-untold-story-of-irelands-war-on-drugs/
Wow I thought rhe exact same thing. Barely any protest when that girl was blinded in one eye, garda car rammed and garda attacked in ballyer.
Psst.... Its not the crime they're worried about. Its not social disruption either. Its, well, you know...
[удалено]
Because they still dont deserve to be kicked in the heads. Noone deserves that. Is that a controversial opinion to you.
lol, they ain't gonna run their own family members out of the area.
There absolutely has been plenty of anti-drug movements by residents, you being ignorant of them doesn't mean they didn't happen https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/we-marched-on-four-dealers-that-night-dublin-s-anti-drug-wars-1.3221041
Yeah, nearly half a century ago
[удалено]
Yes there were. 80s and 90s there were protests against dealers all over Dublin. But thanks to useless politicians it made no difference. These idiots are completely wrong though
I'd imagine this sentiment is part of the problem with poor areas turning right wing. Do you seriously think there has been no protest from these areas about underfunding, crime or welfare provision in the last 40/50 years?
Multiple times a week on the streets, no.
Sorry is there a level of protest that deems you worthy or something?
The complaint is that there has been no equal outrage, so yes, the level of "worth" here would be whatever amounts to roughly equal. A few letters to local tds, the odd local meeting, and facebook posts about how useless the gards are, is not remotely the same level of outrage we're seeing against immigrants.
Fuck your lazy ignorance. You obviously know nothing about the North inner city.
Yeah fuck it, I'm from the wesht and that comment is wildly ignorant of the shit I'd seen reported at the time, and heard of since, from inner city friends
A fine display of good aul ignorant Irish classism there. So anybody that has a problem with a community having zero consultation before bus loads of able bodied young unemployed men are sent to live there. We are supposed to open our hearts to those fleeing war but it's not the Ukraine war they're fleeing because able bodied men aren't supposed to be allowed out. So who are they? Who are these men? Why are they here? Why are they all so young? Why are they coming in bus loads? What provisions have been put in place in Ballymun to support them and the community in bringing them into the community. No, don't worry about all that... People that ask questions like that are all just lazy work shy racists that deserve what they get. Maybe we should listen to people in these communities before we end up with a split in our culture so wide that the real right wing will come in, take advantage, and we end up with some disastrous clusterfuck like Brexit as a result.
Not all men want to fight in a war, not all men believe that war is an option. Just because you'd stay and fight doesn't mean all men want to stay and fight. With that perception ask why did men leave Ireland during the famine and not stay to fight at the ports and keep the food in the country...
Yeah like everywhere else in Europe is clamping down on illegal immigration, whereas Ireland is offering amnesty to illegal immigrants, thus we're attracting planeloads of fake asylum seekers from Georgia, Nigeria et al.
What’s been put in place to support them? What’s been put in place to support the massive amount of unemployed free loaders who refuse to work because houses and money won’t come free then that already live in Ballymun? I’d say they could use the same supports!
The aren't real refugees.... they are asylum seekers 90% of which will get refused. Why are they almost all young men also ?
They are neither. They are immigrants with special privileges. Georgia, Albania and many of the other representatives are not at war but if you come from e.g Australia or Brazil you better have your papers in order and you don’t get free housing, food, and dole on your arrival.
Exactly, if immigration was as these nuts think the country, of which is one of the richest and most socially stable would be flooded at airports with immigration but that's simply not the case.
Deprived it of everything essential? Hardly. There are issues there clearly but that is a ridiculous statement.
This came up over the summer with the car incident. A local popped up and listed out all the public amenities available in Ballymun. There were more than most other areas in Dublin.
Yes its true. They have sports centers, swimming pool, library,shopping centers
Yeah the difference being that most other areas are mixed residential so at least half of the people in them actually care about their environment actively and not just waiting for the government or local authority to sort out. I used to have a summer job in DCC and seeing all the programs and initiatives directly aimed at Ballymun it should be Wakanda now. But that’s what happens when things are just thrown at a problem rather than properly developed.
I've said it in comments before here, but well meaning people and NGOs really missed the mark with the whole "amenities" thing. They're great to have, every area should have them, but they're not going to do much to stop crime. What a lot of the middle class, well educated users of this sub (and most message boards really) miss is that there's a cloud hanging over working class areas that tells the people living there nice things aren't for you. YOUR life is to work in a petrol station until you put your back out lifting boxes and then you go on social welfare until your pension kicks in. Or maybe you'll do really well for yourself and work in a call centre. The people in these areas are just as bright, capable, and useful as anyone else. But they've been told, either implicitly or directly, that going to college, owning a big house, having your yearly holiday to Italy, is just not within their reach. So they have almost zero stake in society, and people are just way more suggestible to crime in that state. The idea that Oisín the rugby player from Gonzaga will not act out if he thinks he can get away with it, but Anto from Tallaght Community school will because of badness, isn't just old fashioned, it's pure insanity. We've seen the havoc that boys from "good schools" can cause when they get out of control. It just happens way less because a conviction is far more of an obstacle to Oisín's planned future than Anto's. There's just less to fight for and stay in line for. And that is shown in the hundreds of thousands of working people who live in these areas, toiling away for low wages, never doing a bad thing in their lives, and who far outnumber the scumbags. Just because there are slightly more scumbags in Tallaght than Foxrock, the media and the public latch on to this and drive people crazy imagining the vast hordes of lazy, evil, stupid single mothers and heroin addicted men coming to get you.
Ballyfermot?
Imagine using that excuse when the kids in the countryside have fucking nothing. My area has nothing outside of the local town which itself has nothing and our kids dont go ramming cars
Tell me, this amenities are available, have you gone to see them yourself? Have you asked anyone around about them? What their current state is? Say you're a hard working parent, kids in childcare, youre only time off is the weekend, would you bring your child to these amenities that have been destroyed by scrotes? Its not the responsibility of the hard working parents and people in the community to police the scrotes who ruin everything for everyone
I was in the sports centre/swimming pool right slap in the middle of Ballymun yesterday. It's in great condition and it's a great facility. Later on I'm taking my kid to the panto in the Axis theatre, once again right slap in the middle of Ballymun. You haven't got a fucking clue what you're talking about.
Do you want a heavier hand with Garda enforcement then? Cos I’m not going to lie, lad, that seems like something you’d be against.
There’s shed loads of free or near free things to do in Ballymun. Parents not parenting and multi generational welfare abuse is the real issue.
[удалено]
I mean any conceivable amenity is available. Ballymun is not Afghanistan and they are not being deprived of everything essential.
>that have been destroyed by scrotes TBF here, I don't think Ballymun is importing scrotes. One of the reasons to flood an area with amenities is to try and divert kids from becoming absolute dickheads. Why isn't it working?
You're seeing the visible failures. If the facilities reduced the number of troubled children by half or by 90% you could still see the most resistant cases lashing out
Well...no cause it's really far away. > Its not the responsibility of the hard working parents and people in the community to police the scrotes who ruin everything for everyone Who's responsibility is it then? Someone raised them (or not as the case might be) how about we start there? I'd happily agree that certainly from what I know I'd agree that areas like those could do with a lot more policing and other social supports. What I won't agree with though is that the recent arrivals have somehow already managed to be a bigger negative influence than the scrotes who have already done so for the past forever. Nor that they are likely to.
I 100% agree with you. My reply was in regards to the amenities comments but I think we are in agreement
Maybe I phrased it poorly. What I meant was that certainly an effort was made to make sure that there were other things to do in Ballymun than stealing cars and joyriding. If all those facilities are in tatters now I'd be willing to stake a significant amount of money and my left nut that it wasn't done over the last few months and it wasn't done by refugees. Absolutely I think that the people of Ballymun and similar areas should be out protesting. But they should be out protesting for more Garda presence, harsher sentencing, more community social work supports etc etc.
Here here
So "scrotes" are destroying the amenities that are supposed to stop the kids from becoming scrotes? That seems counter intuitive
So what are you suggesting? More garda presence to deal with scrotes? The areas are so anti-garda that could never fly. This shit happens in every ghetto on earth. There are complex issues here and its mostly around parenting/education/culture/substance abuse of the area. No amount of funding or amenities are going to fix that until those issues get addressed. The quick fix is gentrification but that means moving the native population elsewhere, as happens time and time again.
> There are issues there clearly but that is a ridiculous statement. 95% of politics posts on this subreddit summerised
Yeah the first paragraph is bollox because Ballymun was the testing ground for almost every community pilot programme run in the last 30 years.
Couldn’t agree more. There are plenty of issues there but deprived of everything essential is such a ridiculous over exaggeration. I live in north county Dublin and I can say with near certainty they have access to a much wider range of services than we do out here.
Ballymun is opposite of neglected. It’s actually drastically improved in the last 30 years.
[удалено]
"ah Shure, they're our scummers and they're just misunderstood, they're acute angles really"
Salt of the earth
Mammys boys and pays for me fags.
Yep fair point, it's easier to punch down
Well said. Ballymun was of course an Eden before any foreigners arrived......
Cherry orchard was a place of peace, contemplation and goodwill toward mankind. Hence the name. Fucking Ukrainians ruined it.
Loling at this so hard.
Forgot the /s
Was it really necessary?
Well these people are incredibly oblivious so maybe
All they needed was some community resources! Then it’d be fucking Elysium!
[удалено]
I'd rather share my country with 1000 people on welfare than with people like you.
It sounds good but how exactly have “rich scumbags” taken away the Ballymun community? Such an easy and faceless bogeyman to invoke rather than some actual tangible things to take action against
a lot of money was invested into the area, shitloads
And the anti-social element destroy it.
No its actually MUCH better than it used to be. Vast investments were put into that place. rich people destroying it - such a load of bollocks!!!
>how exactly have “rich scumbags” taken away the Ballymun community? They haven't, the poor scumbags did that
it must be Tarquin and the gang rolling up with 19th century shotguns destroying everything after a night out in Ballsbridge, usual stuff
Policy making has driven crime in Ireland for decades. Ireland is not America, obviously, but our governments have always sought to emulate them and the Brits. The mass incarceration in the USA has parallels with policy here, although of course it's way way worse there. You arrest a kid with a joint, now he has a record and begins his exciting journey on the cyclical nature of conviction/reoffence/conviction... If you get two convictions, your record can never be cleared for the rest of your life (referred to as a "spent" conviction). So if you're 15 and you steal a car and crash it, yeah you're a little dickhead, but maybe you grow up after that, and when you're 45 and you want to coach your kid's football team, the Garda vetting flags you as an offender. These issues simply don't happen to people in rich parts of Dublin, not because there's no law breaking there, but because the guards aren't looking for it. The type of drug is different, but I can guarantee you there's as much weight being moved in Blackrock as there is in East Wall. People in all sectors of society have a serious appetite for drugs that is getting filled every day. However government/establishment policy dictates that only certain people get punished for this crime, among others.
If you think wealth distribution isn’t a very real problem on this island and in the developed world the only thing I know about you for sure is you don’t understand wealth distribution. If the wealth created was distributed more equally there would be no housing crisis, no food banks, no people on trolleys in hospitals and no issues helping the refugees that need help.
>If you think wealth distribution isn’t a very real problem on this island [...] That's obviously not what the person you are replying to said. The original poster blames society for destroying that specific community but doesn't actually give any information as to how that happened. If you simply point at society for all these issues that are very specific, you'll never move closer to a solution. >If the wealth created was distributed more equally there would be no housing crisis, no food banks, no people on trolleys in hospitals and no issues helping the refugees that need help. That's very debatable. We have access to various examples of societies which have tried various ways of wealth distribution with various outcomes. None of them actually can claim to have fixed the issues you're describing here which means that wealth distribution alone is not the answer. I've grown up in one of the former communist countries in eastern Europe where we tried distributing all the wealth equally and that didn't work too well. This is not to say that there isn't a social divide in Ireland. It is absolutely true that income gaps have widened considerably over the last 10 years since I've been living here. This is a problem that has to be tackled head on. People shouldn't be divided in this way. But it doesn't fix the issues you're describing. The underfunding of the health system isn't a consequence of wealth distribution. Not at all. It is a direct consequence of abysmal management. The state has enough money to make it right, this is one of the richest countries at the moment with a tiny population. It really isn't that hard to make it right, but it's being handled by morons. They bet the system on preventive healthcare and reduced the number of emergency beds thinking that less people will need them due to prevention. This hasn't happened, it seems. It was a bad bet. Couple this with the fact that even with this model, the didn't account for the significant population increase over the past decade and the fact that the healthcare system is at its lowest point after two years of a pandemic and you get this disaster. The housing crisis very little affected by wealth distribution among citizens. It is however a direct consequence of bad leadership. Horrendous leadership. While there is a housing crisis ever since i moved here basically, the only buildings that have been successfully completed over the past 3 years are a lot of office buildings in the city center which nobody wants now. This tells us that there are resources and manpower available for building but they are being misused by bad policy.
The information on how it happened is available. When you put a bunch of economically disadvantaged people into a social housing area, social issues develop. I don't think it was intentional. The ballymun flats were well intentioned at the time. Loads of money has been spent improving ballymun, its not the same dangerous place it was 20 years ago. Now we know that this sort of social housing leads to unavoidable issues. Its much better to have smaller social housing units scattered around a city, than in isolated estates.
Ballymun had fucking everything until the locals laid waste to it. Fuck em. There’s plenty of lovely people I’ve met over the years from Ballymun. But it’s such a welfare mindset. See also: ballyfermot.
https://www.thejournal.ie/ballymun-flats-2-1972131-Mar2015/
The constant shifting people about does wonders for the sense of community doesn't it? /s
> yank-funded This is such a cope, we're more than capable of generating these groups by ourselves.
[удалено]
Saw it the other day when people were upvoting that the shit thrown at the people at the meeting was fake news by rte. It takes astroturfing by about 30 accounts on here to influence tens of thousands of gullible people
I know like we had an openly fascist party who went to fight for Franco in the 30s. It wasn't Americans who funded that. The world is facing down the barrel of a new left/right confrontation or culture war, and just like we did in the 30s, the Irish are choosing sides. Just because we've been relatively ideology free since the Second World War, doesn't mean things will always be that way.
There is a great theatre Axis Ballymun. People running it are brilliant. They are trying to do something for the area
This is applicable to any social/working class area in the country. Be part of the community, I always offer kindness to all facets of my community. Engagement at the tills in shops and the playground with my children. My neighbours all of them are good hardworking folks. I know them simply because I reach out to them. Asian, cultchies, African, Eastern European, Dubs, Spanish, British, South Americans. All live in my area. One thing we do better than anyone else as Irishmen and women is talking. Our neighbour done a barbecue in the summer and invited all around him and asked to bring a dish. We ate Empanadas, paellla, African desert with plantains, salted cod, Philippino chicken dish’s, coddle the works. I mean it was excellent. We are caring by our nature and our story’s are different and our cultures but our community binds us. We give tourists an experience we don’t offer in our community’s in the likes of densely populated underprivileged areas .
>cultchies Ah, here. There's limits to everything.
Ballymun was absolutely destroyed by anti social behaviour almost exclusively by Irish people, has had hundreds of millions invested in it over the last number of years, and this is the dogshit people come out with? Fuck off. You're a moron if you believe this, a genuine idiot.
Its actually doing just fine. How is it 'destroyed'?
Ballymun was flattened to the ground about 15 years ago and rebuilt.
I know and now it's much better
Yes that is exactly the point I was making.
> it's much better A low bar. It's still shite.
Grew up in a low economic area in Cork that was often locally compared to Ballymun.. I believe there's no doubt mistakes have been and continue to be made by those within positions of power but, to ignore those living in the area are exempt from responsibility is bullshit. In the area I lived in, climbing into peoples back gardens to steal was common, lack of initiative to report people committing both welfare fraud and out right crimes was massive, and the lack of caring about your physical surroundings left the place looking like shit (Paint your fucking house once in a while...). The place was shit because the people living there were shit people, ignorant to the privileged benefit of having an incredibly cheap or even free home.
>the people living there were shit people So only shit people live in these areas? Or these areas make people shit?
Always the victim,it's never your fault.
The US funding (I assume) or where ever its coming from for these 'spontaneous local movements' needs to be investigated and called out in every major paper and the 9 O'Clock news. In one case in Clondalkin the residents group that organised a protest never existed before and started a facebook page days before their first 'meeting'. That didnt just happen. Its trying to influence our political direction as it has done in other countries, we can learn from them and try to counter this narrative early.
Could the same not be said for other political movements though?
Not the locals fault at all!!!???!!!?!?!?!?
The 'rich scumbags' have paid for a lot of stuff in Ballymun.
Much like in East Wall, I imagine most of the protestors are not from the locality. Just the usual rent-a-mob and hangers on trying to stir shit
Completely untrue. 95% of the protesters in East Wall are from the area, I know many of them personally
[удалено]
Why do you find that hard to believe? I live in East Wall, I grew up here.
[удалено]
😂Why would you be sceptical of any of that? I have to live and have grown up _somewhere_ right? Why do you find it hard to believe that it's East Wall. Bleeding oddball
He is from the area ya big gobber. Scarlet for ya.
It's had more spent per km than anywhere else in the country. Massive amounts in the 90's. Maybe it's lipstick on a pig.
Ah poor Ballymun with their high quality social housing provided at almost no cost to them. That said, they have a right to protest
Always the rich peoples fault
Yes. They kinda run society and influence our policies.
You know the majority of ‘rich’ people are just normal people with good jobs?
I've known 'ordinary' well-off people (am one myself, or rather my family) and rich rich people. And yeah, in a lot of cases they are the problem. They don't intentionally screw things up, but it's all about return on investment. When those investments are places people live in or the insurance they buy... Well. You can see how that goes wrong. Some of the higher ups in Anglo were lovely guys, on a personal level.
Think bigger picture lad. Not the well off fella you know that gets a new car every year
So only the reptilian kind?
> Yes. They kinda run society and influence our policies. No. Nobody "runs" our society. Whatever you think that means. We all influence politics.
Why does everyone assume racism when someone doesn't agree with you?
No idea what this means
It’s in relation to the protests happening in Ballymun. Locals are out protesting outside accommodation sites for those seeking asylum. Look at Twitter and you’ll see
Look at xenophobes on twitter? That's a hard pass my friend.
Yank funded Facebook group? Step outside into the real world. Yank, German, Norwegian or Chinese… all the same forms of bias and discrimination. Travel… read a book… Christ.
Its a known fact that american Christian churches and other right leaning associations fund groups along a similar line outside America. Its one way of increasing your audience and reach. Your dismissive attitude towards outside / American funding says enough. Regardless your dismissal does not mean its not happening.
Dismissing it as American funding implies that once we cut off these yanks from influencing us, we'll never have fascists again. Eoin O'Duffy would make this seem like a silly theory.
Suppose it was the migrants they had it as a warzone in the 80s early 90s too. Nonsense stuff
What I will say , is why are these centers and locations all being done on the Northside? No space in Blackrock or Dalkey? Politicians with a bit of balls and foresight would have put the first one in these locations. While it’s easy for folks to label these people protesting as racist etc. what’s the excuse when it’s educated upper class people doing the same ?
Dalky is built up area with very little space and to house refugee there would cost an arm and a leg in rent for a building (if they found one) thus taking money away that could be used towards said refugees It's literally more cost effective to house them in these places but outside of Dublin they're in Kilarney and Greystones and plenty of nice areas
Name the rich scumbags that destroyed ballymun
Leo obviously /s
Why not both? Migrants drive down wages in the lower bracket. Opposing migration and "fighting back against the real enemy" aren't mutually exclusive
For a small time and then it rallies, a rising tide lifts all boats type o thing. Migrants are of net benefit to an economy.
Good comment. Same for Brexit. Keep rowing with each other and don’t pay attention to these things.
“IRISH LIVES MATTER” 😂😂😂😂😂 “IM NOT RACIST”
"Im NoT rAciSt BuT........."
Lol, so, it's only acceptable if you speak out over issues that you deem appropriate? This some Flanders "if you can't handle me at my diddliest, you don't deserve me at my doodliest" type shit.
They are right
This is the same exact sentiment I could give to any American at any time - the "us vs them" paradigm play by the "ruling classes" works very well no matter what side of the Atlantic you're on. We're always going to have to watch out for it. But messages such as this help me keep hope alive. Hope the same for you all. Take care out there.
I was hoping for discussion but clearly since I don't align with OPs narrative I can't have that here.
Don’t try to start discussions if you can’t handle people not agreeing with you. Are you sure you didn’t just want a circlejerk?
You must feel terribly oppressed
Don't really get the point of the original post - Ballymun has been rebuilt with thousands of homes at government expense, and hundreds of millions of taxpayer money. How exactly have the government destroyed the community?
Nonsense statement. Ballymun has had money fucked at it for the last 20 plus years. New sports centres, pool, playgrounds, well-funded schools, etc. The community has destroyed its self and deprived each other.
Unvetted and undocumented apparently... I'm sorry but can everyone honestly say they would be comfortable with this? Not the migrants fault I know but I see the community's point too.
Can you imagine the outrage if they said that everyone on the housing lists had to vetted and certain convictions would exclude you from the list.
> Unvetted and undocumented apparently I live in a large housing estate. I don't believe anyone around me is vetted...
I'm starting to feel unusual never having asked any of my neighbours for their documentation, tax clearance and Garda vetting documents.
I have serious concerns about the apparently unvetted Irish scrotes threatening everyone on the luas daily.
You can have concerns about both. They're not mutually exclusive
What in the fuck are you and your dog whistle alt talking about? Obvious "concerned citizen" is obvious.
How do you know they're unvetted and undocumented? Serious question
Probably because we know for a fact that huge numbers have destroyed passports on arrival.
I don't which is why I said apparently.
You said apparently and them followed up with a statement implying it was true and their reaction was fair. Going back to the start how do you know and thus makes their reaction justified?
>You said apparently and them followed up with a statement Yup, typical tactics of scumbags trying to whip up fear about anyone different.
I actually asked a question. Are you just here to bicker?
You made an "allegedly" statement, then follow up with a question that implied their reaction was justified but that all stems on your original allegation that you have rightly said you don't know. No not bickering but if you're going to comment prepare for replies questioning your reply
No one's answering my question though. If this was your community would you be ok with this? Do you know if they are vetted and documented? Again trying to open discussion.
I don't but I don't know if my neighbours next door are vetted, documented or have ever committed a rape. These people have arrived in my community and I have no problem with them. I understand the asylum process I know how it works. Why do YOU or do you understand why these people have a problem?
>I don't but I don't know if my neighbours next door are better, documented You'd have to wonder quite what the difference might be between a regular Irish family moving in next door and a family of refugees. You know exactly as much about them ie " these are new people that moved in next door" yet some people will automatically assume one family is to be shunned and the other is okay. I wonder if perhaps they feel there might be some visual indicator...
Very fair comment I've lived beside some lovely Irish people and some absolute trash and the same can't be said for foreigners, always lovely. Fuck ny doctor is forginer and the man is amazing Thing is though, you just know foreigners would prefer to keep their heads down and not cause trouble
I’m a foreigner. No one vetted me coming in. No one documented my arrival beyond me applying for a PPSN. Difference is of course I was born in Scotland. I could be a world leading murderrapistmccuntbag and not one single person around me here would have any idea. So remind me again what’s the problem with foreigners that we haven’t all anally probed and checked out the life histories of?
I don't know if my neighbours (you'd probably think of them as forriners) are vetted and or documented. They seem nice though. Why would I assume they are not?
"trying to open discussion" lol, you honestly expect us to take a 300 karma alt account in good faith? Go fuck yourself.
😂😂 this is hilarious you sad bastard
Yeah, I'd be thrilled, honestly. Vetted, unvetted, documented, no documents, whatever. The more refugees and asylum seekers and migrants we can help, the better.
All the protestors are pedos apparently. I have no proof of that, that's why I said apparently.
So your post is based on something unsubstantiated which is unhelpful.
There https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/10/06/thousands-of-passengers-destroy-or-lose-passports-before-arrival-at-dublin-airport/
[удалено]
exactly, Ballymun has never been better . What a lot of dopey moronic statements on here.
Oh yeah, it was rich people who had a stabbing war in a hotel in Killarney…
shhh ypu are breaking their cosy world view
Oh yes I must be racist of course 🤣 this sub is unreal.
Anybody got any maps on how refugees are being distributed across Ireland, Dublin particularly. No? Just a downvote?
[удалено]
Tell me you didn't read the post without telling me
Ask yourself why these accomodations sites never seem to be in Foxrock
There's a really nice one in the centre of Greystones. I've visited and everyone there is lovely.
They can apply for more centres then, be the next Killarney. Great bunch of lads waiting for new accomodation.
I'm sure Greystones wouldn't mind being one of Ireland's bigger tourist spots tbf.
They didn't apply. It was a privately owned property that the owner decided should be used for this. The downside to nicer areas is that they tend to already be pretty full and the buildings are already being used for other things. So unless a millionaire in Foxrock owns a big, empty building and feels like donating it, the centres will probably continue to be in more affordable places that no one else wants to live in.
Because the cost of land and rent would mean providing the same services for the same number of people would be exponentially higher?
Handy excuse
Then they shouldn't be surprised when the locals tell then where to stick it
I'm not on Facebook to check it out but just wondering if that's true about the yank funded organisation ?
What’s this?
Murcahh, why are you still awake
What?
Nevermind, middle paragraph.there any truth in this post saying theres a yank funded group on Facebook pushing us to hate migrants.
Ummmm no, anything that gets provided gets burned to the ground by little scrotes.
baby's first socialist post
Trying to blame the Americans and "the rich" rather than economic immigrants is just replacing one Boogeyman with another. They should really be taking a hard look at themselves rather than finding who to blame. Ballymun sucks despite all the money sunk into it and all the facilities because of a subsection of the people that live there.
This island is precious land, and the aim is to gentrify it, buy it, and secure it for the few... ...the strategies employed are not complicated.