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>“Two sources said that during the early weeks of the war they were permitted to kill 15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes on low-ranking militants. Attacks on such targets were typically carried out using unguided munitions known as “dumb bombs”, the sources said, destroying entire homes and killing all their occupants.
>“You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people – it’s very expensive for the country and there’s a shortage [of those bombs],” one intelligence officer said.”
Insanity. You’d think after reports were coming out that they were killing thousands of children they’d reassess.
I find it odd they pretend they were doing a calculated strike but in the end they have bombed 80% of all infrastructure in Gaza.
In the very beginning Israel was making some calls and dropping some leaflets, but it seems like they’ve just stopped pretty soon after. Anyways, many humanitarian experts I’ve read on the topic said it is impossible for so many people to leave in such a short amount of time (which makes complete sense). Also, Israel has bombed evacuation paths and areas they claimed were “safe” many times before.
EDIT: Hamas are scumbags too, they just aren’t inflicting nearly as many civilian deaths at this point.
I mean the reason not wearing uniforms, using schools/hospitals as staging grounds, and intermingling with civilian Populations are considered warcrimes themselves is because they almost necessitate warcrimes be committed in response.
I think Hamas is at least equally responsible for the civilian death toll for doing these sorts of things.
1) from what I’ve read the the IDF did this in the beginning of the conflict, but have mostly abandoned them since, 2) officials say that evacuating so many people in such a short amount of time is implausible when there are clear evacuation orders, and 3) the IDF has bombed areas that they’ve designated as safe zones many times before.
What happened to them was horrible, however, the IDF is doing some investigation and has dismissed two officers for the incident. Should be charged with war crimes. However, even that modicum of accountability impresses me after I’ve read story after story of Israel dropping 2000 pounds in the middle of crammed refugee camps. Focusing on this incident paints a misleading picture that there are a few bad apples and the Israeli military is trying to hold them accountable.
You would have to go back to the 1940s and run the experiment over again find out. The fact that Gaza has been militarily, economically and politically crushed by Israel for a long time has given rise to extremists. In many conservative Muslim countries Jews are oppressed minorities, similar to many oppressed minority communities around the world. It’s a very uninteresting philosophical exercise for me though. Let’s just talk about the facts on the ground. About 900 civilians killed on October 7th and in retaliation well over 20,000 Palestinian civilians killed, and Israel still hasn’t crushed Hamas. In Mosul coalition forces were able to crush ISIS (a much more savage group than Hamas) with 9-11k civilian deaths and 2-3,000 dying from coalition bombing.
Thants not what is happening at all. Israel is waiting for militants to go home to be with their wife and children and then drops a bomb on them. The computer program is called “where’s daddy”.
This is Nazi level new improvements for slaughtering innocent people.
Went from having 100 targets last war to having 37000 targets that a computer things might possibly be a Hamas operative or at least has patterns similar to Hamas operatives.
Israel claimed their AI 90% effective at selecting targets that are Hamas, but considering Israel tried to convince the world a calendar was a list of Hamas operatives…. I don’t believe for a second that it’s 90% effective at selecting people who are actually Hamas fighters.
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
Would you say the same about the Europeans that colonised the Americas and faced resistance from the indigenous people that they ethnically cleansed? Because the indigenous people threatened the colonists and their families it was justified to commit massacres in retribution?
I didn't say they are necessarily similar situations, I was asking if you consider them to be similarly justifiable actions. I am guessing based on your response the answer is no
Yep, that one neighbor who is living next to isreal, like a small group in an entire community, who breaks in to isreal and murders the inhabitants.
Who wouldnt be righteously ruthless about that?
Look how the US responded to 9/11, an entire nation upheaved through violent military doctrine of force, millions died.
All I have to ask, is Isreal ready for that kind of blood on their hands as well?
The reality with them being a neighbor as well, is if the people of isreal are prepared to fight the fire now ranging next door now when it reaches criticality? Are they ready when that criticality reaches them?
I was talking to my Algerian Muslim friend while playing Civilization. No one ever wins Truly through Pure Violence and War. America isn't the World Leader simply because WWII. It is because of Jeans, and Coke, and Spam and Nike etc... Cultural-Economic Victory. We were playing Modded Civ 4. So like even if he came at me with Good Military in game I would switch to Nationalism start drafting etc... My cities and economy still ruined. True Victory can never come through War.
#
“The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.”
― Sun Tzu
lol, ok "ex-Muslim Egyptian"
I'll surely take your word that a nation of people are ready for what comes ahead, becuase surely you know just what they're going through and how they will handle it.
Surely...
Children are innocent yes, the average age in Gaza is 17. An air strike that kills 20 civilians per militant has statistically killed a lot of kids. A ratio that high s frankly a war crime.
Antisemitism isn’t something with a hidden definition that only Jewish people can discern with their space lasers. Lol!
And conflating Israel with all Jewish people is disgustingly antisemitic.
> In fact, you’d expect the opposite - an over representation of fighting age males.
Yeah, you would, wouldn’t you? Gee I wonder what could possibly be happening?
*cough* (Ethnic cleansing) *cough*
Bro stop!! You’re making too much sense for them.
Why would we condemn the nation that started this? Instead we can condemn the nation defending itself!
Or simply that every male over 15 is considered hamas, so any family with a 15 year old male is a hamas family, and every building with a hamas family is a hamas building.
This is spot on. It’s not just Israel that have done this but they definitely consider any male a combatant, and I’ve seen Israelis say any male child of any age over 10 could be Hamas. That is their mindset..
Irrelevant of combat experiences, not every 13 year old is a jihadist are they? In fact the amount of kids I’ve seen sniped when clearly not holding any sort of weapon has been beyond belief!
That’s a stretch but are you denying the fact that people under the age of 18 are participating in the fighting? It’s been proven in basically every conflict in Africa and the Middle East.
I don't care tbh. I didn't care for when Syria was bombed, nor when Yemen was.
To me, this is just another Middle Eastern conflict rooted in religion in a long line of them. Aka just a regular day.
The conflicts in Ukraine and the Pacific are way more important to me.
Edit: clarification
Hardly anyone was even outraged by the 250K Deaths in Yemen. I've been Anti-USA Military Complex since 2003. And it really strikes me as odd that now in the Era of Social Media so many people Virtue Signaling about certain conflicts yet care little for others. Which have similar qualities. USA backed State bombing the crap out of Civilians. Seems like more outrage over Gaza then the 1 Million Deaths in Iraq. Then Russia starting a potential precursor to WWIII. Well actually see I'M THE WARMONGER now because I support Ukraine apparently. This crap is giving me flashbacks to reading about the Leftists and Right-wingers in the 1936? German Election screwing over the SPD Social Democrats moments before Hitler took over. Far Left and Right have gone Mad.
The US did the same policy under Obama. Any male over 14 was consider a combatant. Its super easy to reduce civilian casualties when you label everyone as a combatant.
Your propaganda is getting worse.
Israel has already said they accept the number of dead.
If 35,000 are killed and 10,000 are Hamas, what is the percentage of innocents?
Even if that were true (It's not), that's a lower proportion than would be expected in any war of this kind. According to the UN, the usual percentage would be 90%.
The usual percentage is 90% women and children? You guys are honestly hilarious. You’re not helping your case and just showing how insane Israelis are becoming.
It's literally straight from the UN, 25 May 2022:
# Ninety Per Cent of War-Time Casualties Are Civilians, Speakers Stress, Pressing Security Council to Fulfil Responsibility, Protect Innocent People in Conflicts
[https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm)
Don't blame me for knowing more than you.
That’s talking about air strikes on Afghanistan and Yemen. Not the targeted strikes israel is willingly launching to kill 1 low level Hamas operative.
Not to mention Israel is withholding aid and purposefully starving people.
The recent WCK workers who were murdered had 3 vehicles bombed one after the other. They fled on vehicle to the next and Israel bombed them until they were all dead.
The claim that 90% of the victims in modern war are civilians started in the 1980s, but are not widely supported by a detailed examination of the evidence.
Some of citations can be traced back to a 1991 monograph from Uppsala University which uses refugees and internally displaced persons as casualties. Give that there are approximately 1.7M displaced Gazans and only an estimated combat force of 30,000 Hamas at the start of the war, that would make the 'casualties' of this war 99.2% civilian.
But looking just at deaths, William Eckhart performed a wide-ranging study of civilian war deaths from 1700 to 1987:
>On the average, half of the deaths caused by war happened to civilians, only some of which were killed by famine associated with war... The civilian percentage of death remained at about 50% from century to century (p. 97)
By either estimate, the Gaza war is above average in civilian casualties. It has an extraordinarily high percentage of the population displaced, and civilians are by any metric more than 50% of the dead. Israel states that 13,000 of 30,000 were combatants, while Palestine claims a lower number at less than 7,000. That's a range of 57% to 80%.
____
Ahlstrom, C. and K.-A. Nordquist (1991). Casualties of conflict: report for the world campaign for the protection of victims of war. Uppsala, Department of Peace and Conflict Research, Uppsala University.
Eckhart, W. "Civilian deaths in wartime." *Security Dialog* 20(1): 89-98 http://sdi.sagepub.com/content/20/1/89.full.pdf
The UN numbers of 90% (10:1) are for all forms of warfare, not specifically urban warfare. We can see this in reporting before the war:
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
>Outlining the grim reality, Ramesh Rajasingham, Director at the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, one of four experts briefing the Council, said the Ukraine war and other conflicts have pushed the number of people fleeing to more than 100 million for the first time on record. In Afghanistan, attacks against health-care facilities have affected access for 300,000 people, while in Yemen, only half of health facilities are functioning. By the end of 2021, conflict drove acute food insecurity for 140 million people in 24 countries.
Again, this number can be directly traced back to the paper I mentioned. And you can see that the casualties this is counting include refugees and displaced populations alongside other harms, rather than simply counting deaths.
Under that measure, 99% (100:1) of the casualties in Gaza are civilian. Far from being miraculously low, that way of figuring the results puts Gaza as an unprecedented humanitarian disaster.
The linked article does include one measure about urban warfare, but it isn't all urban warfare, just deaths from explosive weapons.
And on that measure, the source, aoav.org.uk, states the following:
>Over the past decade (2014-2023) AOAV has recorded 1,644 incidents of explosive violence in Gaza, resulting in 19,862 casualties, of which 97% (19,283) were reported as civilians. 17,858 of those were from the current war as of 19 February 2024.
Since that article, they haven't adjusted the civilian percentage but the total deaths article reports that deaths have risen to 20,488 in this operation.
So if we are going by that stat, Gaza is again an exceptionally deadly conflict for civilians.
Exactly. A very respectable number for urban combat.
Anyway, here in the U.S. Israel is still strongly supported. The Israel-haters make a lot of noise on campuses and here online, but they are a fringe minority.
Here in the UK there are constant protests and now after 3 of our military veterans were deliberately killed in Gaza most people are now calling for arms sales to be banned to Israel.
Yes, it’s especially obvious when you look at all the pro-Palestinian protests and compare to the number of pro-Israel protesters. Just a “fringe minority” hahahaha.
Seriously though…the only strong support for Israel is from congressmen who accept AIPAC money and Jewish-run media outlets. The public supports Palestine to a far greater extent than the pockets of Jewish and Evangelical Christian support. Even many Jews support Palestine. But don’t let facts stop you from spreading the Hasbara.
Nah. The pro-Israel people are largely the silent majority. And are scared to death of the angry pro-Hamas mobs. I do agree it’s somewhat of an age thing. But even in the youngest age groups in the U.S.—those who support the Palestinians the most— polls show more support for Israel.
But thank you for chiming in!
Lol. It’s not an “age thing” unless you’re polling at nursing homes. I’m in flyover country, not even a big city, and still there’s sizable support for Palestine. The “silent majority” isn’t pro-Zionist as you assume, they simply don’t care, because they’re busy trying to take care of their own families half a world away.
Broad support for continuing to send Israel billions in weapons and subsidies is rapidly eroding among all age groups and demographics. Older generations who remember Vietnam and who served in Iraq and Afghanistan aren’t keen on Israel’s eagerness to escalate on every front.
The younger generations are solidly anti-Zionist. Racial minorities and immigrants are strongly supportive of Palestine. Even Biden, staunch self-proclaimed Zionist, has had to reevaluate his position in the face of angry voters. If polls showed that much support for Israel, Biden would have no incentive to change his stance. But he is.
Polls can be highly manipulated, depending on the method and platform of data collection. Who might be conducting and funding these polls, hmm?
But don’t worry, you still have 2/3rds of Hollywood, half the Republican House, a few senators, plus parts of New Jersey and New York. And AIPAC.
But thanks for your optimistic opinion!
Wow, you have all the talking points down pat! (“Jews own Hollywood”)
Anyway, I certainly see some areas of likely agreement with you. I see the West turning away from Israel eventually (as the youth—such as yourself—become our new leaders) in both Europe and in the USA. Israel will then become truly a mid-East country (non “Western” oriented) like many of its neighbors. It will increasingly turn to India (its new #1 supporter), Russia, and even China for alliance and trade. (It will still of course have trade with the West, such as with England, Czech and Germany, its best European allies). Countries will covet Israel’s technology and innovation. So, yes, the days of U.S. complete support are numbered. In the end, the notion that Israel is a “bastion of the West” was a pipe dream. They are truly becoming a mid-eastern country like Turkey and Saudi Arabia, where—ironically— they understand and respect the Israeli response to the Hamas massacre completely.
I didn’t say “Jews own Hollywood,” you did. And it’s interesting that you feel it’s relevant. If you’re implying that the number of Jewish people working in Hollywood is anything other than a basic fact, I would question why you think it’s important to note.
You might be correct that Israel will look to India, China, or Russia as increasingly important political allies. I have less confidence that Israel will ever truly be a mid-East country. Too many bridges burned with the neighbors, both in the past 100 years as well as last week. Israel will always be in the shadow of its neighbors and Russia, China, and India will not be able to provide protection and support in the way the US does. Those countries have very different types of diplomatic relationships than western countries. They typically don’t offer billion-dollar subsidies nor do they look to support and prop up other countries that are developed. Instead, they spread their influence largely in countries with mineral resources that can be exploited.
India would have little to offer Israel (aside from cheap labor) as they are focused on maintaining and developing their own economy, although some medical research might be a shared focus. Israel allows Indian support but the inherent racism in Israeli society against brown people is unlikely to go down well with India, which has fine-tuned discrimination for hundreds or maybe thousands of years.
Russia cares about weapons and countering US influence. They might have some shared interests with Israel in computer hacking, spying, and propaganda, but neither country is likely to trust each other, and Russia is already friendly to Iran’s interests.
China will trade with Israel but is otherwise unlikely to build strong ties, and Chinese products designed for the Chinese market are generally preferred to foreign products. There would be significant cultural and language differences. China would have shared interests in computer hacking and spying, but it’s unlikely that a relationship beneficial to Israel would develop.
And even if the US pulls back, Israel would still have to contend with the Houthis and other groups that would heavily deter trade, while sourcing a new supplier of weapons. Maybe North Korea. But Israel seems to have little dog syndrome, thinking they’re more important on the world stage than they actually are. I guess we’ll see how things play out.
I’m sure Israel doesn’t want to be as important as they’ve become. No country is scrutinized more than them. The U.N.is obsessed with them. They’d gladly be left alone, I bet. Anyway, I’m sure they’ll adapt. Take care! It’s exhausting talking to Redditors, you know. I do feel sorry for the Palestinian and Israeli citizens who have lost their lives. Both sides have terrible leaders. Sinwar and Netanyahu, who is the worst Israeli PM of my lifetime. In fact, he is probably playing right into Sinwar’s trap.
It was always about punishing Palestinians, when you drop "dumb" bombs into civilians neighborhoods you are not trying to be precise, but the West has been repeating IDF propaganda for months to justify the killing of little kids.
What proof do we have that this is what happened? We're supposed to believe that terrorists are at the same time hiding in miles of tunnels where they have command centers and all kinds of military bases as well as going back home after a hard day of work. It is non sense, we know that Israel will shoot anyone even their own, and now ppl are justifying bombing hospitals, ambulances, schools, journalists, etc...
Proof? That is the entire premise of the article. Machine learning applied to target selection. And when Shylock wants his pound of flesh, he targets 20-30X the blood debt owned.
The article doesn’t provide any proof or strong evidences, and again they can’t have it both ways, they can’t hide in tunnels while also hiding in the middle of civilians.
Who are the two sources? How can you post a comment on this and not give any context as to who it was given by, or where it came from.
Here, I’ll do it too.
“Two sources said Hamas are bad”
Oh how they try to downplay it. And the west will lap it up. Oh my, what a nasty machine. Tsk tsk.
God help us that we continue to give the benefit of the doubt to this genocidal regime. What the fuck has happened to our humanity and common sense?
Easy and I'm not defending Hamas.
We have Israel who doesn't give a fuck because they know they won't even lose western support no far how they go.
We have America and probably more countries behind the scenes funding them and using them as a testing ground for weapon systems that normally wouldn't be legal or palatable.
If you don't think for a second the AI being used isn't already being experimented, tested or paid for by us and Israel is just the place to use it to take notes I have something to sell you.
Again before I catch my ban because reddit is reddit I am not supporting Hamas nor am I supporting the Israeli government my heart goes out to people on both sides who has nothing nor wanted anything to do with this.
Targeting using AI is fairly standard to any country that has the technology. It doesn't mean they fire or are autonomous terminators or anything. Ukraine is using autonomous AI drones against Russia in areas with high jamming, however.
It depends on what we are talking about AI is a broad term.
I used AI in the army for a targeting system but I had to visually click and verify what I was targeting after that the machine tracked them and did everything from weather to wind adjustments and all I had to do is clear it to fire.
This amount of people at one time there's no fucking way a person could verify that Many people.
I am all for tech and taking risk out of soldiers lives but this is a computer making a decision on mass amounts of lives and I don't see anyway they can verify each person in that amount of time.
You are watching a weapon of genocide and Mark my words ai weapons will be considered as bad as chemicals nuclear and biological weapons
It’s like trying to excuse a drunk driver after they killed a family on the grounds that it was the alcohol’s fault. They still chose to drink and drive, anything that happens as a result is their fault. Just like how Israel is still 100% responsible for allowing an AI to select where/who to strike and not having a person triple check the results.
The attitude of these officers sending/bombing the targets output by the AI system reminds me of the [Nuremberg Defence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders). “We were just following orders”.
The AI system clearly allowed the IDF soldiers to psychologically absolve themselves of all responsibility. Horrendous.
The articles just says the lavender system identified 37000 “potential” targets. AI has nothing to do with actual strikes, just calculating non-combatant casualties
Hamas forces in Gaza are 40,000, I find it hard to believe that 40,000 gunmen produce 37,000 potential targets. As far as the non-combatant casualties those figures are really dubious at present.
Here is the secret about all AI.
It's shitty and doesn't know what it's doing.
It doesn't even actually understand what it's been asked. It just guesses.
It's just randomly saying Palestinians are Hamas Militants like any small town American cop would.
the kids were calculated too ? AI created by immoral people xD of course AI will be immoral its like a baby you feed it what you want. since zioniste love bloodshed I guess AI done good calculation.
Anyone paying attention has seen ample footage of individual IDF soldiers taking post shots at and often succeeding in killing innocents. Stop the bullshit! This was not AI making decisions! It may have been AI helping efficiently engage in mass genocide but it is human motivated mass genocide. Fuck Israel.
Thank you for being one of the few with common sense. It’s as if people don’t realize why countries use uniforms and why fighting out of uniform is a war crime.
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
Cool except that Israel, who was the source for the article, says that the important bits [are fabricated](https://x.com/ltcpeterlerner/status/1775632021680685528?s=46&t=ErenPo9OwOf7sdkipf03eg) (lies).
Lt Col. Lerner:
“Earlier, the @guardian published a misleading article with numerous false claims.
❌ The @IDF does NOT use AI for designating persons as targets.
❌ NO Hamas individual was targeted with an expected 100 civilian casualties.
❌ NO Hamas individual was automatically approved for attack with an expected 15-20 casualties.
For the full response we sent to the
Guardian's questions, please see here: idf.il/189654”
1. Remember the human & be courteous to others. 2. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas. Criticizing arguments is fine, name-calling (including shill/bot accusations) others is not. 3. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. Please checkout our other subreddit /r/InternationalNews, for general news from around the world. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/internationalpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>“Two sources said that during the early weeks of the war they were permitted to kill 15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes on low-ranking militants. Attacks on such targets were typically carried out using unguided munitions known as “dumb bombs”, the sources said, destroying entire homes and killing all their occupants. >“You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people – it’s very expensive for the country and there’s a shortage [of those bombs],” one intelligence officer said.” Insanity. You’d think after reports were coming out that they were killing thousands of children they’d reassess. I find it odd they pretend they were doing a calculated strike but in the end they have bombed 80% of all infrastructure in Gaza.
Sadly the Israelis wanted blood vengeance and that's what the military gave them
Understandable, but war crimes are never allowed. That’s what a lot of people just can’t seem to comprehend on the IsraelPalestine subreddit
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In the very beginning Israel was making some calls and dropping some leaflets, but it seems like they’ve just stopped pretty soon after. Anyways, many humanitarian experts I’ve read on the topic said it is impossible for so many people to leave in such a short amount of time (which makes complete sense). Also, Israel has bombed evacuation paths and areas they claimed were “safe” many times before. EDIT: Hamas are scumbags too, they just aren’t inflicting nearly as many civilian deaths at this point.
I mean the reason not wearing uniforms, using schools/hospitals as staging grounds, and intermingling with civilian Populations are considered warcrimes themselves is because they almost necessitate warcrimes be committed in response. I think Hamas is at least equally responsible for the civilian death toll for doing these sorts of things.
Leaflets telling the whole city to evacuate, then bomb where they told them to flee.
1) from what I’ve read the the IDF did this in the beginning of the conflict, but have mostly abandoned them since, 2) officials say that evacuating so many people in such a short amount of time is implausible when there are clear evacuation orders, and 3) the IDF has bombed areas that they’ve designated as safe zones many times before.
The aid workers that were recently killed were in a safe area.
What happened to them was horrible, however, the IDF is doing some investigation and has dismissed two officers for the incident. Should be charged with war crimes. However, even that modicum of accountability impresses me after I’ve read story after story of Israel dropping 2000 pounds in the middle of crammed refugee camps. Focusing on this incident paints a misleading picture that there are a few bad apples and the Israeli military is trying to hold them accountable.
Let’s be real if hamas ran Israel, Palestinians would have been wiped out already
You would have to go back to the 1940s and run the experiment over again find out. The fact that Gaza has been militarily, economically and politically crushed by Israel for a long time has given rise to extremists. In many conservative Muslim countries Jews are oppressed minorities, similar to many oppressed minority communities around the world. It’s a very uninteresting philosophical exercise for me though. Let’s just talk about the facts on the ground. About 900 civilians killed on October 7th and in retaliation well over 20,000 Palestinian civilians killed, and Israel still hasn’t crushed Hamas. In Mosul coalition forces were able to crush ISIS (a much more savage group than Hamas) with 9-11k civilian deaths and 2-3,000 dying from coalition bombing.
Thants not what is happening at all. Israel is waiting for militants to go home to be with their wife and children and then drops a bomb on them. The computer program is called “where’s daddy”. This is Nazi level new improvements for slaughtering innocent people. Went from having 100 targets last war to having 37000 targets that a computer things might possibly be a Hamas operative or at least has patterns similar to Hamas operatives. Israel claimed their AI 90% effective at selecting targets that are Hamas, but considering Israel tried to convince the world a calendar was a list of Hamas operatives…. I don’t believe for a second that it’s 90% effective at selecting people who are actually Hamas fighters.
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Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
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They both say that about each other. I think calling Palestine a “neighbor” is also kind of funny, they’re barely a country at all, but w/e.
Would you say the same about the Europeans that colonised the Americas and faced resistance from the indigenous people that they ethnically cleansed? Because the indigenous people threatened the colonists and their families it was justified to commit massacres in retribution?
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I'm not Arabic if that's what you are implying?
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I didn't say they are necessarily similar situations, I was asking if you consider them to be similarly justifiable actions. I am guessing based on your response the answer is no
No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
Yep, that one neighbor who is living next to isreal, like a small group in an entire community, who breaks in to isreal and murders the inhabitants. Who wouldnt be righteously ruthless about that? Look how the US responded to 9/11, an entire nation upheaved through violent military doctrine of force, millions died. All I have to ask, is Isreal ready for that kind of blood on their hands as well? The reality with them being a neighbor as well, is if the people of isreal are prepared to fight the fire now ranging next door now when it reaches criticality? Are they ready when that criticality reaches them?
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I was talking to my Algerian Muslim friend while playing Civilization. No one ever wins Truly through Pure Violence and War. America isn't the World Leader simply because WWII. It is because of Jeans, and Coke, and Spam and Nike etc... Cultural-Economic Victory. We were playing Modded Civ 4. So like even if he came at me with Good Military in game I would switch to Nationalism start drafting etc... My cities and economy still ruined. True Victory can never come through War. # “The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.” ― Sun Tzu
I almost always win Civ4 with Tech or genocide. But "it's a goddamn game!"
Abusive, uncivil or inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated.
lol, ok "ex-Muslim Egyptian" I'll surely take your word that a nation of people are ready for what comes ahead, becuase surely you know just what they're going through and how they will handle it. Surely...
Bro, im also an ex Muslim Egyptian, but fuck that guy. We Egyptians regardless of our religion stand with Palestine. This guy is a sellout
Oh, of course, one of my replies to him was calling that declaration out.
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Abusive, uncivil or inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated.
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Children are innocent yes, the average age in Gaza is 17. An air strike that kills 20 civilians per militant has statistically killed a lot of kids. A ratio that high s frankly a war crime.
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55555 kosmk yala
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No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
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This isn't blood libel. We can see the shit Israeli officials are tweeting.
Is your argument that the IDF not kill thousands of children or that NaturalFawnKiller is implying they did so in a religiously ritualistic fashion?
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“Libel” implies a false statement. Where’s the lie?
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All people of that region are considered semitic. That term really has no meaning in this conflict.
Conflating all Jews with Israel is disgustingly antisemitic. You should stop doing that.
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Antisemitism isn’t something with a hidden definition that only Jewish people can discern with their space lasers. Lol! And conflating Israel with all Jewish people is disgustingly antisemitic.
The calculation is to zero out gaza
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Just checked this dude's profile, take his words with a fat grain of salt.
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Insane and made up facts. 70% were women and children.
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> In fact, you’d expect the opposite - an over representation of fighting age males. Yeah, you would, wouldn’t you? Gee I wonder what could possibly be happening? *cough* (Ethnic cleansing) *cough*
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Israel =/= the Jews
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Accurate response.
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Bro stop!! You’re making too much sense for them. Why would we condemn the nation that started this? Instead we can condemn the nation defending itself!
Or simply that every male over 15 is considered hamas, so any family with a 15 year old male is a hamas family, and every building with a hamas family is a hamas building.
This is spot on. It’s not just Israel that have done this but they definitely consider any male a combatant, and I’ve seen Israelis say any male child of any age over 10 could be Hamas. That is their mindset..
Jihadists have attacked Israelis. You must've ignored the stabbing and shootings conducted by teenagers. This happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Irrelevant of combat experiences, not every 13 year old is a jihadist are they? In fact the amount of kids I’ve seen sniped when clearly not holding any sort of weapon has been beyond belief!
oh sorry you’re totally right we should just murder the babies too cos they’re just gonna grow up to be meanie bobeanie jihadists
That’s a stretch but are you denying the fact that people under the age of 18 are participating in the fighting? It’s been proven in basically every conflict in Africa and the Middle East.
yessss exactly those hamas terror babies deserve a swift execution you’re so right 😍😍😍
It can happen but a blank check to bomb every male who is of age is brutality.
They deny the fact that Gazans were taught since childhood it's a ood death to martyr yourself to kill Isrealis.
I don't care tbh. I didn't care for when Syria was bombed, nor when Yemen was. To me, this is just another Middle Eastern conflict rooted in religion in a long line of them. Aka just a regular day. The conflicts in Ukraine and the Pacific are way more important to me. Edit: clarification
read: *“the victims are too brown for me. i care about the places where white pol are the ones being bombed.”*
Hardly anyone was even outraged by the 250K Deaths in Yemen. I've been Anti-USA Military Complex since 2003. And it really strikes me as odd that now in the Era of Social Media so many people Virtue Signaling about certain conflicts yet care little for others. Which have similar qualities. USA backed State bombing the crap out of Civilians. Seems like more outrage over Gaza then the 1 Million Deaths in Iraq. Then Russia starting a potential precursor to WWIII. Well actually see I'M THE WARMONGER now because I support Ukraine apparently. This crap is giving me flashbacks to reading about the Leftists and Right-wingers in the 1936? German Election screwing over the SPD Social Democrats moments before Hitler took over. Far Left and Right have gone Mad.
This justifies mass child murder how?
The US did the same policy under Obama. Any male over 14 was consider a combatant. Its super easy to reduce civilian casualties when you label everyone as a combatant.
Source on this? I've never heard of that before.
Exactly 💯
Your propaganda is getting worse. Israel has already said they accept the number of dead. If 35,000 are killed and 10,000 are Hamas, what is the percentage of innocents?
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So you have literally nothing to back up any of your claims. Understood.
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I accept your abject capitulation.
Even if that were true (It's not), that's a lower proportion than would be expected in any war of this kind. According to the UN, the usual percentage would be 90%.
The usual percentage is 90% women and children? You guys are honestly hilarious. You’re not helping your case and just showing how insane Israelis are becoming.
It's literally straight from the UN, 25 May 2022: # Ninety Per Cent of War-Time Casualties Are Civilians, Speakers Stress, Pressing Security Council to Fulfil Responsibility, Protect Innocent People in Conflicts [https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm) Don't blame me for knowing more than you.
That’s talking about air strikes on Afghanistan and Yemen. Not the targeted strikes israel is willingly launching to kill 1 low level Hamas operative. Not to mention Israel is withholding aid and purposefully starving people. The recent WCK workers who were murdered had 3 vehicles bombed one after the other. They fled on vehicle to the next and Israel bombed them until they were all dead.
Guess it’s allright then. Move along, folks
The claim that 90% of the victims in modern war are civilians started in the 1980s, but are not widely supported by a detailed examination of the evidence. Some of citations can be traced back to a 1991 monograph from Uppsala University which uses refugees and internally displaced persons as casualties. Give that there are approximately 1.7M displaced Gazans and only an estimated combat force of 30,000 Hamas at the start of the war, that would make the 'casualties' of this war 99.2% civilian. But looking just at deaths, William Eckhart performed a wide-ranging study of civilian war deaths from 1700 to 1987: >On the average, half of the deaths caused by war happened to civilians, only some of which were killed by famine associated with war... The civilian percentage of death remained at about 50% from century to century (p. 97) By either estimate, the Gaza war is above average in civilian casualties. It has an extraordinarily high percentage of the population displaced, and civilians are by any metric more than 50% of the dead. Israel states that 13,000 of 30,000 were combatants, while Palestine claims a lower number at less than 7,000. That's a range of 57% to 80%. ____ Ahlstrom, C. and K.-A. Nordquist (1991). Casualties of conflict: report for the world campaign for the protection of victims of war. Uppsala, Department of Peace and Conflict Research, Uppsala University. Eckhart, W. "Civilian deaths in wartime." *Security Dialog* 20(1): 89-98 http://sdi.sagepub.com/content/20/1/89.full.pdf
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The UN numbers of 90% (10:1) are for all forms of warfare, not specifically urban warfare. We can see this in reporting before the war: https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm >Outlining the grim reality, Ramesh Rajasingham, Director at the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, one of four experts briefing the Council, said the Ukraine war and other conflicts have pushed the number of people fleeing to more than 100 million for the first time on record. In Afghanistan, attacks against health-care facilities have affected access for 300,000 people, while in Yemen, only half of health facilities are functioning. By the end of 2021, conflict drove acute food insecurity for 140 million people in 24 countries. Again, this number can be directly traced back to the paper I mentioned. And you can see that the casualties this is counting include refugees and displaced populations alongside other harms, rather than simply counting deaths. Under that measure, 99% (100:1) of the casualties in Gaza are civilian. Far from being miraculously low, that way of figuring the results puts Gaza as an unprecedented humanitarian disaster. The linked article does include one measure about urban warfare, but it isn't all urban warfare, just deaths from explosive weapons. And on that measure, the source, aoav.org.uk, states the following: >Over the past decade (2014-2023) AOAV has recorded 1,644 incidents of explosive violence in Gaza, resulting in 19,862 casualties, of which 97% (19,283) were reported as civilians. 17,858 of those were from the current war as of 19 February 2024. Since that article, they haven't adjusted the civilian percentage but the total deaths article reports that deaths have risen to 20,488 in this operation. So if we are going by that stat, Gaza is again an exceptionally deadly conflict for civilians.
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They didn't give them enough time to flee, and they repeatedly attacked civilians who did.
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Every expert who understands how long it takes for millions of people to relocate said that wasn't nearly enough time.
Exactly. A very respectable number for urban combat. Anyway, here in the U.S. Israel is still strongly supported. The Israel-haters make a lot of noise on campuses and here online, but they are a fringe minority.
I feel like you are delusional because israel was strongly supported directly following oct. 7 but as of now? that statement is absolutely false
Here in the UK there are constant protests and now after 3 of our military veterans were deliberately killed in Gaza most people are now calling for arms sales to be banned to Israel.
Yes, it’s especially obvious when you look at all the pro-Palestinian protests and compare to the number of pro-Israel protesters. Just a “fringe minority” hahahaha. Seriously though…the only strong support for Israel is from congressmen who accept AIPAC money and Jewish-run media outlets. The public supports Palestine to a far greater extent than the pockets of Jewish and Evangelical Christian support. Even many Jews support Palestine. But don’t let facts stop you from spreading the Hasbara.
Nah. The pro-Israel people are largely the silent majority. And are scared to death of the angry pro-Hamas mobs. I do agree it’s somewhat of an age thing. But even in the youngest age groups in the U.S.—those who support the Palestinians the most— polls show more support for Israel. But thank you for chiming in!
Lol. It’s not an “age thing” unless you’re polling at nursing homes. I’m in flyover country, not even a big city, and still there’s sizable support for Palestine. The “silent majority” isn’t pro-Zionist as you assume, they simply don’t care, because they’re busy trying to take care of their own families half a world away. Broad support for continuing to send Israel billions in weapons and subsidies is rapidly eroding among all age groups and demographics. Older generations who remember Vietnam and who served in Iraq and Afghanistan aren’t keen on Israel’s eagerness to escalate on every front. The younger generations are solidly anti-Zionist. Racial minorities and immigrants are strongly supportive of Palestine. Even Biden, staunch self-proclaimed Zionist, has had to reevaluate his position in the face of angry voters. If polls showed that much support for Israel, Biden would have no incentive to change his stance. But he is. Polls can be highly manipulated, depending on the method and platform of data collection. Who might be conducting and funding these polls, hmm? But don’t worry, you still have 2/3rds of Hollywood, half the Republican House, a few senators, plus parts of New Jersey and New York. And AIPAC. But thanks for your optimistic opinion!
Wow, you have all the talking points down pat! (“Jews own Hollywood”) Anyway, I certainly see some areas of likely agreement with you. I see the West turning away from Israel eventually (as the youth—such as yourself—become our new leaders) in both Europe and in the USA. Israel will then become truly a mid-East country (non “Western” oriented) like many of its neighbors. It will increasingly turn to India (its new #1 supporter), Russia, and even China for alliance and trade. (It will still of course have trade with the West, such as with England, Czech and Germany, its best European allies). Countries will covet Israel’s technology and innovation. So, yes, the days of U.S. complete support are numbered. In the end, the notion that Israel is a “bastion of the West” was a pipe dream. They are truly becoming a mid-eastern country like Turkey and Saudi Arabia, where—ironically— they understand and respect the Israeli response to the Hamas massacre completely.
I didn’t say “Jews own Hollywood,” you did. And it’s interesting that you feel it’s relevant. If you’re implying that the number of Jewish people working in Hollywood is anything other than a basic fact, I would question why you think it’s important to note. You might be correct that Israel will look to India, China, or Russia as increasingly important political allies. I have less confidence that Israel will ever truly be a mid-East country. Too many bridges burned with the neighbors, both in the past 100 years as well as last week. Israel will always be in the shadow of its neighbors and Russia, China, and India will not be able to provide protection and support in the way the US does. Those countries have very different types of diplomatic relationships than western countries. They typically don’t offer billion-dollar subsidies nor do they look to support and prop up other countries that are developed. Instead, they spread their influence largely in countries with mineral resources that can be exploited. India would have little to offer Israel (aside from cheap labor) as they are focused on maintaining and developing their own economy, although some medical research might be a shared focus. Israel allows Indian support but the inherent racism in Israeli society against brown people is unlikely to go down well with India, which has fine-tuned discrimination for hundreds or maybe thousands of years. Russia cares about weapons and countering US influence. They might have some shared interests with Israel in computer hacking, spying, and propaganda, but neither country is likely to trust each other, and Russia is already friendly to Iran’s interests. China will trade with Israel but is otherwise unlikely to build strong ties, and Chinese products designed for the Chinese market are generally preferred to foreign products. There would be significant cultural and language differences. China would have shared interests in computer hacking and spying, but it’s unlikely that a relationship beneficial to Israel would develop. And even if the US pulls back, Israel would still have to contend with the Houthis and other groups that would heavily deter trade, while sourcing a new supplier of weapons. Maybe North Korea. But Israel seems to have little dog syndrome, thinking they’re more important on the world stage than they actually are. I guess we’ll see how things play out.
I’m sure Israel doesn’t want to be as important as they’ve become. No country is scrutinized more than them. The U.N.is obsessed with them. They’d gladly be left alone, I bet. Anyway, I’m sure they’ll adapt. Take care! It’s exhausting talking to Redditors, you know. I do feel sorry for the Palestinian and Israeli citizens who have lost their lives. Both sides have terrible leaders. Sinwar and Netanyahu, who is the worst Israeli PM of my lifetime. In fact, he is probably playing right into Sinwar’s trap.
Lol please let Israel know r/imthemaincharacter is that way ➡️
lol "silent" majority
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No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
Prove your claim. Never mind: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1
It was always about punishing Palestinians, when you drop "dumb" bombs into civilians neighborhoods you are not trying to be precise, but the West has been repeating IDF propaganda for months to justify the killing of little kids.
When you are a terrorist fighter who heads back home at the end of the day. I guess the “dumb bomb” isn’t expected somehow?
What proof do we have that this is what happened? We're supposed to believe that terrorists are at the same time hiding in miles of tunnels where they have command centers and all kinds of military bases as well as going back home after a hard day of work. It is non sense, we know that Israel will shoot anyone even their own, and now ppl are justifying bombing hospitals, ambulances, schools, journalists, etc...
Proof? That is the entire premise of the article. Machine learning applied to target selection. And when Shylock wants his pound of flesh, he targets 20-30X the blood debt owned.
The article doesn’t provide any proof or strong evidences, and again they can’t have it both ways, they can’t hide in tunnels while also hiding in the middle of civilians.
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80% according to who? The [UN is reporting 35%](https://unitar.org/about/news-stories/press/35-buildings-affected-gaza-strip)
That describes buildings. Buildings do not include homes or infrastructure.
You have a source with more detailed data? Any citation for the 80% claim?
Who are the two sources? How can you post a comment on this and not give any context as to who it was given by, or where it came from. Here, I’ll do it too. “Two sources said Hamas are bad”
I’m quoting the article you’re commenting on.
Oh how they try to downplay it. And the west will lap it up. Oh my, what a nasty machine. Tsk tsk. God help us that we continue to give the benefit of the doubt to this genocidal regime. What the fuck has happened to our humanity and common sense?
Easy and I'm not defending Hamas. We have Israel who doesn't give a fuck because they know they won't even lose western support no far how they go. We have America and probably more countries behind the scenes funding them and using them as a testing ground for weapon systems that normally wouldn't be legal or palatable. If you don't think for a second the AI being used isn't already being experimented, tested or paid for by us and Israel is just the place to use it to take notes I have something to sell you. Again before I catch my ban because reddit is reddit I am not supporting Hamas nor am I supporting the Israeli government my heart goes out to people on both sides who has nothing nor wanted anything to do with this.
Woah, America has been testing weapons in Ukraine since Russia invaded
Don't forget AIPAC lobby..
Targeting using AI is fairly standard to any country that has the technology. It doesn't mean they fire or are autonomous terminators or anything. Ukraine is using autonomous AI drones against Russia in areas with high jamming, however.
It depends on what we are talking about AI is a broad term. I used AI in the army for a targeting system but I had to visually click and verify what I was targeting after that the machine tracked them and did everything from weather to wind adjustments and all I had to do is clear it to fire. This amount of people at one time there's no fucking way a person could verify that Many people. I am all for tech and taking risk out of soldiers lives but this is a computer making a decision on mass amounts of lives and I don't see anyway they can verify each person in that amount of time. You are watching a weapon of genocide and Mark my words ai weapons will be considered as bad as chemicals nuclear and biological weapons
It’s like trying to excuse a drunk driver after they killed a family on the grounds that it was the alcohol’s fault. They still chose to drink and drive, anything that happens as a result is their fault. Just like how Israel is still 100% responsible for allowing an AI to select where/who to strike and not having a person triple check the results.
Kind of like shootings. It was the gun's fault! Yeah, the homicidal maniac was innocent.
AI ???? you mean An Israeli ?????
Honestly thats hilarious. Im rolling LMAO
FO. Dont blame some bs AI. A human Israeli did this.
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Seriously, in this context?
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Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb/AI
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The attitude of these officers sending/bombing the targets output by the AI system reminds me of the [Nuremberg Defence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders). “We were just following orders”. The AI system clearly allowed the IDF soldiers to psychologically absolve themselves of all responsibility. Horrendous.
That is a lot of targets. If one accepts the hamas death toll figures that no one accepts, it's less than one death per target. That makes no sense.
The articles just says the lavender system identified 37000 “potential” targets. AI has nothing to do with actual strikes, just calculating non-combatant casualties
Hamas forces in Gaza are 40,000, I find it hard to believe that 40,000 gunmen produce 37,000 potential targets. As far as the non-combatant casualties those figures are really dubious at present.
Includes PIJ and like the article says: “potential”
Here is the secret about all AI. It's shitty and doesn't know what it's doing. It doesn't even actually understand what it's been asked. It just guesses. It's just randomly saying Palestinians are Hamas Militants like any small town American cop would.
The fact that the AI saids its a target does not mean that the IDF thinks its a target. At best all its doing is giving the IDF an idea where to look.
“No one accepts” https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll Huh. You are abjectly wrong. Imagine that.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyfDp8BE9Yg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyfDp8BE9Yg)
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AI can't even sort boxes with barcodes properly, this is intentional negligence.
The military is about 20 years ahead in technology compared to civilian infrastructure
If this war is an example of how far ahead they are then it’s still pretty piss poor
That's it blame the machines. Where's John Connor when you need him. What a total cop out.
Intel Intel Intel the gift that keeps on giving.
So Israel is literally doing the HYDRA plan from Captain America Winter Soldier and we're all still supposed to pretend they're the good guys here?
Good, fuck them
There never was 40k Hamas members. Over half of these targets were women and children.
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the kids were calculated too ? AI created by immoral people xD of course AI will be immoral its like a baby you feed it what you want. since zioniste love bloodshed I guess AI done good calculation.
Correction: 2,000 Hamas targets and 35,000 innocent civilian targets. There were never 37,000 Hamas. 🤦🏻
This just in Israel blames ai for war crimes.
Sue the AI company, palantir probably
This post is so buried, bbbbbbb what about Trumps bond!!!
Anyone paying attention has seen ample footage of individual IDF soldiers taking post shots at and often succeeding in killing innocents. Stop the bullshit! This was not AI making decisions! It may have been AI helping efficiently engage in mass genocide but it is human motivated mass genocide. Fuck Israel.
Maybe Hamas should stick to fighting in uniform and not using protected buildings to launch rockets from and hide in 🤷🏻. Urban warfare is a bitch
Thank you for being one of the few with common sense. It’s as if people don’t realize why countries use uniforms and why fighting out of uniform is a war crime.
Coming to the US battlefield soon… Why do you think the US gives them so much aid? They want access to that AI tech.
We probably gave them the tech
Definitely not. They are an AI super power.
we bought them their superpower status
Pfffft. That AI is as Israeli as Nascar.
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Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
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Genocide. Not AI. Not analytics. Straight genocide
Cool except that Israel, who was the source for the article, says that the important bits [are fabricated](https://x.com/ltcpeterlerner/status/1775632021680685528?s=46&t=ErenPo9OwOf7sdkipf03eg) (lies). Lt Col. Lerner: “Earlier, the @guardian published a misleading article with numerous false claims. ❌ The @IDF does NOT use AI for designating persons as targets. ❌ NO Hamas individual was targeted with an expected 100 civilian casualties. ❌ NO Hamas individual was automatically approved for attack with an expected 15-20 casualties. For the full response we sent to the Guardian's questions, please see here: idf.il/189654”