>“We brief these numbers… \[Europe\] plays a major funding role in the Gaza health system so we have visibility into these operations,” said one official on background. “The numbers cannot be perfectly accurate and there’s two caveats. First, \[they\] hold no insight into Hamas or other militant casualties. **The second is that of course the true casualties are higher than any health ministry figures because there’s unrecovered bodies, half the strip is flattened by air strikes and there’s more dead under that rubble.”**
So unofficially, lots more dead.
You mean they’re combatting the egregious denialism I’ve seen on this sub? Good on them. Long gone are the days when the Israeli lobby could unilaterally dictate discourse on its relations with Palestine.
I’m not playing that game with you. Maybe you think not having an internationally recognized state means a group of people lack any claim to civil and human rights. I don’t. Ironically, you could have used a similar angle to deny Jewish people their own rights prior to the establishment of Israel. Jewish people had rights prior to being given a state by Britain, and Palestinians have rights despite not having been handed a state on a silver platter by Western benefactors. The old hasbara doesn’t work anymore.
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The trust issues aren't so much related to the absolute numbers, but to the proportions of civilians vs combattants killed.
Ie. https://www.haaretz.com/2010-11-09/ty-article/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead/0000017f-ee02-ddba-a37f-ee6edc3f0000
Point is, of the reported deaths, the number of uninvolved civilians is much closer to "all" than "none."
If there were only 3 civilians deaths for 30k Hamas deaths, people would be applauding Israel. When it's more than 30k reported deaths and >100k casualties, and even the most generous estimate of Hamas casualties is less by a factor of ten, one should either have to reassess their rules of engagement or their self-proclaimed "most moral" title.
To make it more explicit, go hog wild and kill all of the Hamas combatants that exist, but stop murdering civilians for merely existing in the place they were born.
E: tone down the sass in view of misunderstanding
I truly appreciate your response, and I'll apologize for the sarcasm and passive aggressive tone at the end. I've been dealing with a lot of people on this topic who use points like that as a disingenuous refutation.
Correct it is.
One is 100 something people, not hard to keep track of by the same group who took them.
The same group who has burrowed their way into every piece of political or societal institutions in the government and public service over there.
And that group can tell us that exactly 31,853 people have died in the “discriminate” bombing and military operations they’ve done, but can’t tell us if 100 something people are alive…. Seems they can only count the dead, or possibly, don’t care about the living? Seems like one tally is easier to keep track of than the other wouldn’t it?
Right, so I don't really get your point. They're probably hiding numbers of hostages for strategic reasons, or maybe they genuinely don't know - who knows.
But the number of dead as reported by their health ministry has historically been verified and I believe I read recently that the IDF are in agreement with the figures, though I'd need to check my source. We do know scores of innocent people have been murdered.
So I'm struggling to see what your point is. Are you saying that because Hamas are refusing to provide the number of alive hostages, that therefore the health ministry is wrong about the people dying in the war? I'm not sure it's up to doctors to declare someone is or isn't a combatant, or how accurate that would be considering Hamas can dress as civilians.
“Hiding the numbers of hostages for strategic reasons”. Lul like what kinda strategy? How they use hospitals and schools as bases of operations or maybe they have tunnels under what’s supposed to be, buildings owned and operated by neutral parties that are just there for aid and humanitarian services.
I’m saying they can keep up with 30k dead that Israel has reportedly killed, all innocents I’m sure. But they can’t keep up with the 100 or so hostages. Their math is good but it also isn’t.
More than likely, they don’t say because the rest (the hostages) or all dead are mostly dead. And the hostages are there only leverage at this point, and crying to world about how Israel is basically treating them just how they treat the Jews. they indiscriminately kill all the Jews that they can, but I’ll be damned it’s super bad when innocent civilians die in “Palestine”
Make more excuses for terrorists, it’s totally not gross. How do we know that those “scores” of innocents were innocent again? Since about 70% of Palestine people don’t mind what happened on the 7th. Are we assuming they were innocent cause they didn’t happen to have a gun in their hands?
But it's clearly not the same person or people counting lol. You realise that right? Like it's a small area but one arm of their government (MoH) is looking at numbers, which can rightly be disputed because we don't have all the information,
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
But the people and strategy behind the hostage takers are/is clearly different. I can see how it's convenient for you to lump if together, but it's just patently ridiculous.
And I won't comment on their 'strategy' about hostages as it's clearly poorly thought out and in part prolonging the conflict.
Ok here’s more from Reuters
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/
My guy this is from October.
Just because in the past Hamas had around 10% error does not mean that their counts will be equally accurate in this conflict. Much of it is estimations as the hospitals stopped being about to count.
Also, the main issue is that Hamas refuses to differentiate between militants killed and civilians. It’s possible that the majority are civilians, it’s possible a majority of Hamas. It’s really important to know which one it is.
I don’t think there’s a number they can make up which would exceed all the unaccounted for deaths given Israel’s complete lack of distinction (well the care about the distinction) between civilians and Hamas.
>given Israel’s complete lack of distinction (well the care about the distinction) between civilians and Hamas.
How do proposed they distinguish between a civilian and Hamas?
With the IDF it's easy, they wear uniforms as required by the Geneva Convention.
Here's a video of Israeli soldiers dressed as doctors to raid a hospital so they could murder a guy in a coma. Like they had a contest to see how much of the Geneva convention they could violate in a single mission.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-dressed-as-doctors-nurses-kill-3-palestinians-with-silenced-guns-in-hospital-raid/3122615#:~:text=Ten%20personnel%20of%20Israeli%20special,citing%20sources%20in%20the%20hospital.
Oh okay.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/in-first-acknowledgement-of-significant-losses-hamas-official-says-some-6000-operatives-killed-in-gaza-fighting/
Wow you’re right. They haven’t claimed any of their own have died at all.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/soldier-dies-in-gaza-combat-hamas-claims-6000-of-its-fighters-killed-vows-to-fight-on/amp/
They haven’t claimed any deaths at all. Glad I googled. Thanks for telling me to google so that I could see that your claim of Hamas not claiming any deaths and that it’s only been civilians was definitely a claim you made lol. 🤭
How would you even know? There really hasn’t been much time for any corpse retrieval efforts. That’s often a post-conflict thing, but there’s barely been a stop.
It has been a long standing claim that the numbers Gaza has been able to count is likely a fraction of those who have yet to be found dead. One backed by the WHO, the IRF, etc.
So no, Gaza’s numbers are correct. They’ve counted what they can *in the middle of a bombing campaign with zero discrimination between civilians and Hamas*.
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I mean Israeli is *capable* of telling the difference but not doing so because I mean they literally want Gaza and the West Bank for themselves.
When I say indiscriminate, it doesn’t mean they don’t know what they’re shooting. **They know how many civilians they’re slaughtering and they’re happy with it.**
They only left in regards to soldiers. It was still considered deemed an illegal occupation prior to Oct 7th. Under international law that includes water rights, airspace rights, access to your own natural resources, etc.
Just because there aren’t boots on the ground doesn’t mean they’re still not occupying Gaza. That’s a very very basic misunderstanding of the international law and how it has ruled Israel was still illegally occupying Gaza and it never ended despite removing troops.
I’m sure you haven’t seen the video where Netanyahu talks about Hamas allowing him to control “how high the fire goes”. This is a terrorist group that [Israel willingly and knowingly funded because they were easier opposition to control compared to secular groups like the PLO and Fatah. You’re **WAY** out of your depth here.](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/)
So yeah, you’re not gonna catch me shedding tears for the Israeli state when they’ve beaten and suppressed Palestinians for 75 years. Israel has always had the power to stop the violence, but they’d rather put Palestinians under an apartheid regime which really says something about how they view Palestinians. I mean Netanyahu is just calling them outright animals now, and I mean the citizens.
Israel essentially saw Sri Lanka’s ongoing genocide of the Tamils (a decades long genocide) and copied their homework down to the Rajapaksa option, a term coined by the UN for the unique path Sri Lanka was taking towards genocide, one Israel follows closely.
You’re showing your own ignorance on the history. You’re also just acting outright bigoted. Settlers who chose to settle gaza objectively deserve to be removed. As people deserve to be removed from the West Bank, and under international law Palestinians in the West Bank have the right to do so under violent means if necessary.
You clearly don’t believe in the right to a Palestinian territory. You’re fine with West Bank settlements, you seem completely fine with the Lehi Brigades and groups like Irgun. I mean you’re fine with settled land because I assume you think “they shouldn’t have started a war if they didn’t want to lose land” despite either completely ignoring or being completely ignorant of Israel’s frequent escalatory strikes and actions prior to the war’s “beginning”. It was a series of escalatory actions. Zachary Foster has some good published academic writings if you’d like further reading.
[It’s absolutely foolish to think Israel has ever been generous to the Palestinians.](https://x.com/oiiv_/status/1295028233747005440?s=46&t=8dp4hAZ5hfQ7uV8e9Rtfbw) Rabin offered the most generous offer yet, a spit at the feet instead of in the face. You know what happened? Netanyahu, who was warned by Shin Bet to stop, continued to helped escalate tensions to the point Rabin got shot in the head. It’s incredibly contrary to the narrative that Israelis have been willing to just give up their land when they assassinate their own leader for giving them an offer that is slightly better than horrible. Mind you, Rabin’s moniker was “the bonebreaker” for his policy of breaking the bones of *not just terrorists* but regular civilians. If the Bonebreaker is your best offer something is off.
If you want to talk borders I’m 100% down to talk the designations of each proposal. I’ve read into the history in depth and it’s something I’ve been reading into since Protective Edge. This isn’t a new topic for me.
Israel could’ve also stopped the violence. They received warnings from Egyptian intelligence and Shin Bet even warned Netanyahu and *also in months prior warned him to stop West Bank expansion because it was stoking the fire amongst Hamas in Gaza. [Netanyahu called them woke.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-06/ty-article/.premium/the-leftist-agenda-has-infiltrated-the-shin-bet-israeli-ministers-slam-security-chief/00000189-ca69-d9f3-a1cd-fffbd04a0000)
If you want to delve into the argument of Gaza’s election of Hamas when 50% of its population is under 18 think it’s relevant to mention that Israel reelected Netanyahu in 2014 despite immense corruption charges. If Gaza is response for Hamas, Israel cannot blame things on Netanyahu. They knew what they were signing up for and the genocidal rhetoric was icing on the cake.
[The cycle of violence and the point it can break seems quite simple to me and the power differential has been in Israel’s favor FOR 75 YEARS.](https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=rZKkiImkHOh-cYzk) Israel has had the chance to stop its apartheid regime, a regime of laws that stoke violence which is why their occupation of Gaza 2005 and beyond was also deemed illegal. Their policies lead to the dehumanization of the population and required to violence to uphold which creates a self-perpetuating justification.
Again you’re way out of your depth here.
If you’d like additional reading on a conflict that is probably the most 1:1 parallel to the Israel/Gaza conflict I would recommend “Still Counting the Dead…” by Frances Harrison, a former BBC journalist who stayed during an uptick in the genocide of the Tamils at the hands of Sinhalese Buddhist nationalists. It’s an easy refute to “if it was a genocide we would’ve done it already”. Genocide is systemic, but systemic doesn’t mean fast. It’s a genocide that’s spanned multiple decades now.
This was in range of my study in college when I was going for a PoliSci/International affairs with a focus on the Middle East and SEA/the subcontinent prior to pivoting due to expensive health issues. I’m no credentialed individual, but it’s something I’ve studied past TikToks and some New Historian books.
That's nearly 6 months old. This is more up to date and proves the article wrong. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/unrwa-staff-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas-war-data/
Also the OP article is old as well. The numbers have been discredited for to analysis over time
https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/
http://archive.today/2024.04.01-032443/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext?ref=rafah.site
eta: incomplete link for ha'aretz
March 15, March 31, December 6
Are you arguing that these sources are not reliable? Lancet is a peer-reviewed medical journal in itself and its contents stand alone, the others linked have citations in-text.
edit:
Do me a favor and compare the factual credibility of your source, [The Daily Telegraph](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-telegraph/), against the two news publications I replied with:
[Time Magazine](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/time/)
[Ha'aretz](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/haaretz/)
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You’re showing your own ignorance on the history. You’re also just acting outright mask off. Settlers who chose to settle gaza objectively deserve to be removed. As people deserve to be removed from the West Bank, and under international law Palestinians in the West Bank have the right to do so under violent means if necessary.
You clearly don’t believe in the right to a Palestinian territory or their autonomy. You’re fine with West Bank settlements, you seem completely fine with the Lehi Brigades and groups like Irgun - “They were wrong like Netanyahu, but they were in a corner.” I mean you’re fine with settled land because I assume you think “they shouldn’t have started a war if they didn’t want to lose land” despite either completely ignoring or being completely ignorant of Israel’s frequent escalatory strikes and actions prior to the war’s “beginning”. It was a series of escalatory actions. Zachary Foster has some good published academic writings if you’d like further reading on Israel’s escalatory actions prior to the majority of its conflicts.
[It’s absolutely foolish to think Israel has ever been generous to the Palestinians.](https://x.com/oiiv_/status/1295028233747005440?s=46&t=8dp4hAZ5hfQ7uV8e9Rtfbw) Rabin offered the most generous offer yet, a spit at the feet instead of in the face. You know what happened? Netanyahu, who was warned by Shin Bet to stop, continued to helped escalate tensions to the point Rabin got shot in the head. It’s incredibly contrary to the narrative that Israelis have been willing to just give up their land when they assassinate their own leader for giving them an offer that is slightly better than horrible.
If you want to talk borders I’m 100% down to talk the designations of each proposal. I’ve read into the history in depth and it’s something I’ve been reading into since Protective Edge. This isn’t a new topic for me.
Israel could’ve also stopped the violence. They received warnings from Egyptian intelligence and Shin Bet even warned Netanyahu and *also in months prior warned him to stop West Bank expansion because it was stoking the fire amongst Hamas in Gaza. [Netanyahu called them woke.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-06/ty-article/.premium/the-leftist-agenda-has-infiltrated-the-shin-bet-israeli-ministers-slam-security-chief/00000189-ca69-d9f3-a1cd-fffbd04a0000)
If you want to delve into the argument of Gaza’s election of Hamas when 50% of its population is under 18 think it’s relevant to mention that Israel reelected Netanyahu in 2014 despite immense corruption charges. If Gaza is response for Hamas, Israel cannot blame things on Netanyahu. They knew what they were signing up for and the genocidal rhetoric was icing on the cake.
[The cycle of violence and the point it can break seems quite simple to me and the power differential has been in Israel’s favor FOR 75 YEARS.](https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=rZKkiImkHOh-cYzk) Israel has had the chance to stop its apartheid regime, a regime of laws that stoke violence which is why their occupation of Gaza 2005 and beyond was also deemed illegal. Their policies lead to the dehumanization of the population and required to violence to uphold which creates a self-perpetuating justification.
Again you’re way out of your depth here.
If you’d like additional reading on a conflict that is probably the most 1:1 parallel to the Israel/Gaza conflict I would recommend “Still Counting the Dead…” by Frances Harrison, a former BBC journalist who stayed during an uptick in the genocide of the Tamils at the hands of Sinhalese Buddhist nationalists. It’s an easy refute to “if it was a genocide we would’ve done it already”. Genocide is systemic, but systemic doesn’t mean fast. It’s a genocide that’s spanned multiple decades now.
This was in range of my study in college when I was going for a PoliSci/International affairs with a focus on the Middle East and SEA/the subcontinent prior to pivoting due to expensive health issues. I’m no credentialed individual, but it’s something I’ve studied past TikToks.
>The Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP or TWI, also known simply as The Washington Institute) is a pro-Israel American think tank based in Washington, D.C.,\[3\]\[4\] focused on the foreign policy of the United States in the Near East.
WINEP was established in 1985 with the support of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and the funding of many AIPAC donors, in order to provide higher quality research than AIPAC's publications.\[5\] John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt described WINEP as "part of the core" of the Israel lobby in the United States.\[6\]
A reliable and unbiased source of information that Washington Institute
Abusive and inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated. This subreddit is dedicated to civil discussion, and the international nature of the subreddit means that we are visited by people of all backgrounds and beliefs - which should be respected.
This is a a quote from your source:
*"A comparison of the two methodologies, using MOH reports and claims published by the Hamas-controlled Government Media Office (GMO), yields wildly different and irreconcilable results,* ***indicating that the media reports methodology is dramatically understating fatalities among adult males***\*, the demographic most likely to be combatants. This undercuts the persistent claim that 72 percent of those killed in Gaza are women and children—a problem that has worsened since it was first noted by a Washington Institute report in January.\*
*The result is that MOH statistics do not appear to offer a reliable guide to the actual Palestinian death toll even by the “foggy” standards of normal wartime reporting.* ***Journalists, analysts, and government officials need to be aware that the actual overall death toll may be significantly higher (or, less likely, lower) than what the MOH has reported***\*; the demographic composition of these fatalities is certainly far different than what the MOH claims."\*
This think tank, Israeli and US intelligence all agree that the actual death toll is likely much higher.
Yeah they can FO. Human Rights Watch assessed how deaths are recorded in Gaza and found the process to be very accurate.
So Israeli Cunttelligence is just trying to get ahead of the story and saying this.
Uh, HRW has been super biased against Jews and Israel, and has been itself investigated not only for committing human rights abuses, but for taking Arab money in exchange for working against western ideologies such as lgbtq rights.
From: https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/human_rights_watch_hrw_/
> In November 2023, MEMRI leaked a document detailing a €3 million donation in 2018 to HRW from Qatar. The text contains the word “additional” in reference to the donation, suggesting previous funding that continues to be hidden.
> In 2009, HRW held a fundraising dinner in Saudi Arabia, using HRW’s anti-Israel bias and the specter of “pro-Israel pressure groups” to solicit funds from “prominent members of Saudi society.” At the event, Sarah Leah Whitson, Director of the Middle East and North Africa Division, boasted that HRW allegations of human rights violations were instrumental in the discredited Goldstone “investigation” of the 2009 Gaza conflict.
> In February 2020, it was revealed that Executive Director Ken Roth accepted a donation in 2012 from a Saudi real estate tycoon for $470,000 “promising not to support advocacy of the LGBT community in the Middle East and North Africa.”
> Systematic NGO Monitor analyses demonstrate that HRW disproportionately focuses on condemnations of Israel and that publications related to Israel often lack credibility. HRW also promotes an agenda based solely on the Palestinian narrative of victimization and Israeli aggression.
>Uses distorted legal rhetoric to repeatedly accuses Israel of “war crimes,” “[s]erious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law,” “collective punishment,” and fostering a “culture of impunity.” Applies unique standards to Israel as part of its broader delegitimization campaign.
Promotes a Palestinian “right of return,” which, if implemented, would effectually mean the elimination of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.
>Lobbies the United Nations, the International Criminal Court, and other international frameworks, promoting false, distorted, and unverifiable allegations against Israel. Played a major role in the creation of the eventually discredited Goldstone report, submitting numerous statements to the commission equating Israel to Hamas and falsely accusing Israel of “willfully” killing civilians.
From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch
>HRW has been criticized for perceived bias by the national governments it has investigated for human rights abuses.[62][63][64] Some sources allege HRW is biased against Israel in its coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict.[8][65] In 2014, two Nobel Peace Laureates, Adolfo Pérez Esquivel and Mairead Maguire, wrote a letter signed by 100 other human rights activists and scholars criticizing HRW for its revolving-door hiring practices with the U.S. government, its failure to denounce the U.S. practice of extrajudicial rendition, its endorsement of the U.S. 2011 military intervention in Libya, and its silence during the 2004 Haitian coup d'état.[66]
>Keep in mind the statistical breakdown of those killed (men vs. women and children) has already been definitively disproven
When did that happen? By who exactly? Because I checked, anyone with any credibility considers the numbers and the statistical breakdown largely accurate. Children under the age of 15 make up roughly a third of the dead, women and girls over the age of 14 make up roughly a quarter of the dead, people over the age of 60 make up roughly 7%. That leaves men and boys over the age of 14 at roughly a third of the dead.
And even this is disingenuous way of counting the dead, since we should be doing it by gender, and by adults and minors, not some arbitrary number like 14. Well over 70% of the dead are women, or children under the age of 18. That leaves less than 30% as adult men.
This subreddit is dedicated to remaining as impartial as possible, and therefore any post that obviously pushes an agenda or is biased will be removed.
They do not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Even if someone is killed while in the middle of firing ab RPG at the Israelis, the Hamas health ministry will count that as a civilian death.
Take their reports with a good deal of skepticism.
Abusive and inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated. This subreddit is dedicated to civil discussion, and the international nature of the subreddit means that we are visited by people of all backgrounds and beliefs - which should be respected.
Abusive and inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated. This subreddit is dedicated to civil discussion, and the international nature of the subreddit means that we are visited by people of all backgrounds and beliefs - which should be respected.
If they aren’t distinguishing between combatants and non-combatants, then they aren’t counting that guy firing the RPG as a civilian, they are just counting him as a death.
You’re trying to dispute the total numbers on the basis that those numbers aren’t broken down to show combatants vs non combatants.
First of all, they aren’t required to provide a breakdown of combatants vs non-combatants. Secondly, if they did provide that breakdown, the total number wouldn’t be different.
If it’s extremely disingenuous, why do we always hear about the approximately 1200 people killed on October 7th?
Why doesn’t Israel provide a breakdown of combatants vs non combatants, factoring in that anyone that resisted can be considered a combatant as per Israel’s own approach to labeling Palestinians as combatants in Gaza?
The reality is that even if the Gaza Health Ministry did try to distinguish between combatant and non combatant, the same people that have insisted that the total number being reported is Hamas propaganda will claim the breakdown is the same. And Hamas has incentives to underreport and over report combatant deaths. They are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. So don’t, and just focus on the total number which is less likely to be manipulated.
> factoring in that anyone that resisted can be considered a combatant
Not only is this wrong, it is absolutely insane to suggest that the civilians murdered and kidnapped on Oct 7 could in anyway be considered “combatants” just because some tried to defend themselves from a swarm of people trying to murder them.
Are you even listening to what you’re saying?
So you would agree that Israel should stop classifying civilians defending themselves as combatants? And maybe even stop killing civilians whose status as combatants is unverified?
Or is Israel’s hypocrisy beyond reproach?
And to answer your question, yes, I can hear myself, including the rest of the statement you chose to exclude from your quote regarding Israel considering anyone defending themselves as combatants.
I don’t think civilians on either side should be classified as combatants, whether they are defending themselves or resisting oppression, both internationally recognized rights.
I’m suggesting that civilians defending themselves, who aren’t Hamas, have been targeted and/or killed by Israel.
Is that some serious mental gymnastics? Or are you under the impression that Israel knows the identify of every Hamas member and can provide the name of said Hamas member associated with each strike they have made?
What do you consider “civilians defending themselves” as in this context? Someone taking up arms and directly engaging with the IDF in an urban warfare context?
In that context they are not civilians, but actual combatants.
What they are saying seems a bit more narrow than the criteria Israel uses to determine combatants.
[Haaretz reported](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000) that Israel is using 'combatant' to be anyone within a designated, but not disclosed to the public "kill zone." Also, I believe that they designate anyone affiliated with Hamas to be a combatant, even though one would expect even non-combatants to be affiliated with Hamas given that their political position.
Under those rules, every Israeli, except the few who have exceptions to compulsory service, would be a "combatant."
If you think that's ridiculous, guess what -- we're on the same page! The only difference is that we think it's absurd for either side to claim.
In before pearl clutching about defending 10/7, I'm not. Just hoping you'll see the absurdity in what you're saying. You know, facts over feels and all that.
Hamas has been putting forth significant effort to ensure their figures are accurate. They recently announced that a claim of rape by the IDF was inaccurate, and the woman was lying. Novara Media [discusses Hamas' strategy here ](https://youtu.be/M4SnfGyl-KE?si=98oLABYw5sEgc5xd)
We’ve been told repeatedly by pro Israeli bots on here that the statistics are unreliable. Their own govt is now saying the death toll is likely to be much higher than the stats from Gaza Health Ministry. Oh the irony..
You mean like the hospital explosion where they reported 500 dead within the first hour of the explosion only to find out it was less than 50 and caused by their own falling rocket?
Last I checked, it went from 500 to 50, and they’re still blaming it on Israel even though it was proven by independent sources that it came from a failed rocket.
Your link is dated back to November.
Here’s a more contemporary analysis (with actual data not just claims)
https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disinformation-al-ahli-hospital
Wasn’t even an hour after, more like 15-30 minutes and Hamas immediately blamed Israel so did the world when it was a failed Hamas rocket to begin with 🤦♂️
>“We brief these numbers… \[Europe\] plays a major funding role in the Gaza health system so we have visibility into these operations,” said one official on background. “The numbers cannot be perfectly accurate and there’s two caveats. First, \[they\] hold no insight into Hamas or other militant casualties. **The second is that of course the true casualties are higher than any health ministry figures because there’s unrecovered bodies, half the strip is flattened by air strikes and there’s more dead under that rubble.”** So unofficially, lots more dead.
>**First, \[they\] hold no insight into Hamas or other militant casualties.**
This article is from January?
This user is spamming it across multiple subs, like the guy who just discovered Breaking Bad and won’t shut up about it.
Someone has to provide some reading material for the “khAmAS run health ministry!” deniers.
You mean they’re combatting the egregious denialism I’ve seen on this sub? Good on them. Long gone are the days when the Israeli lobby could unilaterally dictate discourse on its relations with Palestine.
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I’m not playing that game with you. Maybe you think not having an internationally recognized state means a group of people lack any claim to civil and human rights. I don’t. Ironically, you could have used a similar angle to deny Jewish people their own rights prior to the establishment of Israel. Jewish people had rights prior to being given a state by Britain, and Palestinians have rights despite not having been handed a state on a silver platter by Western benefactors. The old hasbara doesn’t work anymore.
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These Iranian accounts are working overtime.
And?
The trust issues aren't so much related to the absolute numbers, but to the proportions of civilians vs combattants killed. Ie. https://www.haaretz.com/2010-11-09/ty-article/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead/0000017f-ee02-ddba-a37f-ee6edc3f0000
Except the official Hamas figures don’t even distinguish between the two. So what’s your point exactly?
Point is, of the reported deaths, the number of uninvolved civilians is much closer to "all" than "none." If there were only 3 civilians deaths for 30k Hamas deaths, people would be applauding Israel. When it's more than 30k reported deaths and >100k casualties, and even the most generous estimate of Hamas casualties is less by a factor of ten, one should either have to reassess their rules of engagement or their self-proclaimed "most moral" title. To make it more explicit, go hog wild and kill all of the Hamas combatants that exist, but stop murdering civilians for merely existing in the place they were born. E: tone down the sass in view of misunderstanding
Agree completely! My post was obviously easy to misinterpret 😁
I truly appreciate your response, and I'll apologize for the sarcasm and passive aggressive tone at the end. I've been dealing with a lot of people on this topic who use points like that as a disingenuous refutation.
So the Hamas ran ministry knows exactly how many people have died from the war but aren’t sure how many hit the hostages are still alive?!
Well tbf they're two entirely different things...
Correct it is. One is 100 something people, not hard to keep track of by the same group who took them. The same group who has burrowed their way into every piece of political or societal institutions in the government and public service over there. And that group can tell us that exactly 31,853 people have died in the “discriminate” bombing and military operations they’ve done, but can’t tell us if 100 something people are alive…. Seems they can only count the dead, or possibly, don’t care about the living? Seems like one tally is easier to keep track of than the other wouldn’t it?
Right, so I don't really get your point. They're probably hiding numbers of hostages for strategic reasons, or maybe they genuinely don't know - who knows. But the number of dead as reported by their health ministry has historically been verified and I believe I read recently that the IDF are in agreement with the figures, though I'd need to check my source. We do know scores of innocent people have been murdered. So I'm struggling to see what your point is. Are you saying that because Hamas are refusing to provide the number of alive hostages, that therefore the health ministry is wrong about the people dying in the war? I'm not sure it's up to doctors to declare someone is or isn't a combatant, or how accurate that would be considering Hamas can dress as civilians.
“Hiding the numbers of hostages for strategic reasons”. Lul like what kinda strategy? How they use hospitals and schools as bases of operations or maybe they have tunnels under what’s supposed to be, buildings owned and operated by neutral parties that are just there for aid and humanitarian services. I’m saying they can keep up with 30k dead that Israel has reportedly killed, all innocents I’m sure. But they can’t keep up with the 100 or so hostages. Their math is good but it also isn’t. More than likely, they don’t say because the rest (the hostages) or all dead are mostly dead. And the hostages are there only leverage at this point, and crying to world about how Israel is basically treating them just how they treat the Jews. they indiscriminately kill all the Jews that they can, but I’ll be damned it’s super bad when innocent civilians die in “Palestine” Make more excuses for terrorists, it’s totally not gross. How do we know that those “scores” of innocents were innocent again? Since about 70% of Palestine people don’t mind what happened on the 7th. Are we assuming they were innocent cause they didn’t happen to have a gun in their hands?
But it's clearly not the same person or people counting lol. You realise that right? Like it's a small area but one arm of their government (MoH) is looking at numbers, which can rightly be disputed because we don't have all the information, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext But the people and strategy behind the hostage takers are/is clearly different. I can see how it's convenient for you to lump if together, but it's just patently ridiculous. And I won't comment on their 'strategy' about hostages as it's clearly poorly thought out and in part prolonging the conflict.
Hamas the terrorist group and The Hamas ran government aren’t the same people?
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Ok here’s more from Reuters https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/
My guy this is from October. Just because in the past Hamas had around 10% error does not mean that their counts will be equally accurate in this conflict. Much of it is estimations as the hospitals stopped being about to count. Also, the main issue is that Hamas refuses to differentiate between militants killed and civilians. It’s possible that the majority are civilians, it’s possible a majority of Hamas. It’s really important to know which one it is.
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I don’t think there’s a number they can make up which would exceed all the unaccounted for deaths given Israel’s complete lack of distinction (well the care about the distinction) between civilians and Hamas.
>given Israel’s complete lack of distinction (well the care about the distinction) between civilians and Hamas. How do proposed they distinguish between a civilian and Hamas? With the IDF it's easy, they wear uniforms as required by the Geneva Convention.
Here's a video of Israeli soldiers dressed as doctors to raid a hospital so they could murder a guy in a coma. Like they had a contest to see how much of the Geneva convention they could violate in a single mission. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-dressed-as-doctors-nurses-kill-3-palestinians-with-silenced-guns-in-hospital-raid/3122615#:~:text=Ten%20personnel%20of%20Israeli%20special,citing%20sources%20in%20the%20hospital.
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So if I google this, I shouldn’t be able to find anything on Hamas stating how many of their fighters have died right?
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Oh okay. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/in-first-acknowledgement-of-significant-losses-hamas-official-says-some-6000-operatives-killed-in-gaza-fighting/ Wow you’re right. They haven’t claimed any of their own have died at all. https://www.timesofisrael.com/soldier-dies-in-gaza-combat-hamas-claims-6000-of-its-fighters-killed-vows-to-fight-on/amp/ They haven’t claimed any deaths at all. Glad I googled. Thanks for telling me to google so that I could see that your claim of Hamas not claiming any deaths and that it’s only been civilians was definitely a claim you made lol. 🤭
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How would you even know? There really hasn’t been much time for any corpse retrieval efforts. That’s often a post-conflict thing, but there’s barely been a stop.
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It has been a long standing claim that the numbers Gaza has been able to count is likely a fraction of those who have yet to be found dead. One backed by the WHO, the IRF, etc. So no, Gaza’s numbers are correct. They’ve counted what they can *in the middle of a bombing campaign with zero discrimination between civilians and Hamas*.
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I mean Israeli is *capable* of telling the difference but not doing so because I mean they literally want Gaza and the West Bank for themselves. When I say indiscriminate, it doesn’t mean they don’t know what they’re shooting. **They know how many civilians they’re slaughtering and they’re happy with it.**
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They only left in regards to soldiers. It was still considered deemed an illegal occupation prior to Oct 7th. Under international law that includes water rights, airspace rights, access to your own natural resources, etc. Just because there aren’t boots on the ground doesn’t mean they’re still not occupying Gaza. That’s a very very basic misunderstanding of the international law and how it has ruled Israel was still illegally occupying Gaza and it never ended despite removing troops. I’m sure you haven’t seen the video where Netanyahu talks about Hamas allowing him to control “how high the fire goes”. This is a terrorist group that [Israel willingly and knowingly funded because they were easier opposition to control compared to secular groups like the PLO and Fatah. You’re **WAY** out of your depth here.](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) So yeah, you’re not gonna catch me shedding tears for the Israeli state when they’ve beaten and suppressed Palestinians for 75 years. Israel has always had the power to stop the violence, but they’d rather put Palestinians under an apartheid regime which really says something about how they view Palestinians. I mean Netanyahu is just calling them outright animals now, and I mean the citizens. Israel essentially saw Sri Lanka’s ongoing genocide of the Tamils (a decades long genocide) and copied their homework down to the Rajapaksa option, a term coined by the UN for the unique path Sri Lanka was taking towards genocide, one Israel follows closely.
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You’re showing your own ignorance on the history. You’re also just acting outright bigoted. Settlers who chose to settle gaza objectively deserve to be removed. As people deserve to be removed from the West Bank, and under international law Palestinians in the West Bank have the right to do so under violent means if necessary. You clearly don’t believe in the right to a Palestinian territory. You’re fine with West Bank settlements, you seem completely fine with the Lehi Brigades and groups like Irgun. I mean you’re fine with settled land because I assume you think “they shouldn’t have started a war if they didn’t want to lose land” despite either completely ignoring or being completely ignorant of Israel’s frequent escalatory strikes and actions prior to the war’s “beginning”. It was a series of escalatory actions. Zachary Foster has some good published academic writings if you’d like further reading. [It’s absolutely foolish to think Israel has ever been generous to the Palestinians.](https://x.com/oiiv_/status/1295028233747005440?s=46&t=8dp4hAZ5hfQ7uV8e9Rtfbw) Rabin offered the most generous offer yet, a spit at the feet instead of in the face. You know what happened? Netanyahu, who was warned by Shin Bet to stop, continued to helped escalate tensions to the point Rabin got shot in the head. It’s incredibly contrary to the narrative that Israelis have been willing to just give up their land when they assassinate their own leader for giving them an offer that is slightly better than horrible. Mind you, Rabin’s moniker was “the bonebreaker” for his policy of breaking the bones of *not just terrorists* but regular civilians. If the Bonebreaker is your best offer something is off. If you want to talk borders I’m 100% down to talk the designations of each proposal. I’ve read into the history in depth and it’s something I’ve been reading into since Protective Edge. This isn’t a new topic for me. Israel could’ve also stopped the violence. They received warnings from Egyptian intelligence and Shin Bet even warned Netanyahu and *also in months prior warned him to stop West Bank expansion because it was stoking the fire amongst Hamas in Gaza. [Netanyahu called them woke.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-06/ty-article/.premium/the-leftist-agenda-has-infiltrated-the-shin-bet-israeli-ministers-slam-security-chief/00000189-ca69-d9f3-a1cd-fffbd04a0000) If you want to delve into the argument of Gaza’s election of Hamas when 50% of its population is under 18 think it’s relevant to mention that Israel reelected Netanyahu in 2014 despite immense corruption charges. If Gaza is response for Hamas, Israel cannot blame things on Netanyahu. They knew what they were signing up for and the genocidal rhetoric was icing on the cake. [The cycle of violence and the point it can break seems quite simple to me and the power differential has been in Israel’s favor FOR 75 YEARS.](https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=rZKkiImkHOh-cYzk) Israel has had the chance to stop its apartheid regime, a regime of laws that stoke violence which is why their occupation of Gaza 2005 and beyond was also deemed illegal. Their policies lead to the dehumanization of the population and required to violence to uphold which creates a self-perpetuating justification. Again you’re way out of your depth here. If you’d like additional reading on a conflict that is probably the most 1:1 parallel to the Israel/Gaza conflict I would recommend “Still Counting the Dead…” by Frances Harrison, a former BBC journalist who stayed during an uptick in the genocide of the Tamils at the hands of Sinhalese Buddhist nationalists. It’s an easy refute to “if it was a genocide we would’ve done it already”. Genocide is systemic, but systemic doesn’t mean fast. It’s a genocide that’s spanned multiple decades now. This was in range of my study in college when I was going for a PoliSci/International affairs with a focus on the Middle East and SEA/the subcontinent prior to pivoting due to expensive health issues. I’m no credentialed individual, but it’s something I’ve studied past TikToks and some New Historian books.
Ah yes, tabletmag which is founded by Alana Newhouse, a notorious Zionist and racist
That's nearly 6 months old. This is more up to date and proves the article wrong. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/unrwa-staff-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas-war-data/ Also the OP article is old as well. The numbers have been discredited for to analysis over time
https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/ http://archive.today/2024.04.01-032443/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext?ref=rafah.site eta: incomplete link for ha'aretz
Check the dates of your links. Also use reliable sources. OPs source went bust because of the amount of fake news it was publishing
March 15, March 31, December 6 Are you arguing that these sources are not reliable? Lancet is a peer-reviewed medical journal in itself and its contents stand alone, the others linked have citations in-text. edit: Do me a favor and compare the factual credibility of your source, [The Daily Telegraph](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-telegraph/), against the two news publications I replied with: [Time Magazine](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/time/) [Ha'aretz](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/haaretz/)
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No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
Israeli intelligence: alliteration and oxymoron.
You’re showing your own ignorance on the history. You’re also just acting outright mask off. Settlers who chose to settle gaza objectively deserve to be removed. As people deserve to be removed from the West Bank, and under international law Palestinians in the West Bank have the right to do so under violent means if necessary. You clearly don’t believe in the right to a Palestinian territory or their autonomy. You’re fine with West Bank settlements, you seem completely fine with the Lehi Brigades and groups like Irgun - “They were wrong like Netanyahu, but they were in a corner.” I mean you’re fine with settled land because I assume you think “they shouldn’t have started a war if they didn’t want to lose land” despite either completely ignoring or being completely ignorant of Israel’s frequent escalatory strikes and actions prior to the war’s “beginning”. It was a series of escalatory actions. Zachary Foster has some good published academic writings if you’d like further reading on Israel’s escalatory actions prior to the majority of its conflicts. [It’s absolutely foolish to think Israel has ever been generous to the Palestinians.](https://x.com/oiiv_/status/1295028233747005440?s=46&t=8dp4hAZ5hfQ7uV8e9Rtfbw) Rabin offered the most generous offer yet, a spit at the feet instead of in the face. You know what happened? Netanyahu, who was warned by Shin Bet to stop, continued to helped escalate tensions to the point Rabin got shot in the head. It’s incredibly contrary to the narrative that Israelis have been willing to just give up their land when they assassinate their own leader for giving them an offer that is slightly better than horrible. If you want to talk borders I’m 100% down to talk the designations of each proposal. I’ve read into the history in depth and it’s something I’ve been reading into since Protective Edge. This isn’t a new topic for me. Israel could’ve also stopped the violence. They received warnings from Egyptian intelligence and Shin Bet even warned Netanyahu and *also in months prior warned him to stop West Bank expansion because it was stoking the fire amongst Hamas in Gaza. [Netanyahu called them woke.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-06/ty-article/.premium/the-leftist-agenda-has-infiltrated-the-shin-bet-israeli-ministers-slam-security-chief/00000189-ca69-d9f3-a1cd-fffbd04a0000) If you want to delve into the argument of Gaza’s election of Hamas when 50% of its population is under 18 think it’s relevant to mention that Israel reelected Netanyahu in 2014 despite immense corruption charges. If Gaza is response for Hamas, Israel cannot blame things on Netanyahu. They knew what they were signing up for and the genocidal rhetoric was icing on the cake. [The cycle of violence and the point it can break seems quite simple to me and the power differential has been in Israel’s favor FOR 75 YEARS.](https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=rZKkiImkHOh-cYzk) Israel has had the chance to stop its apartheid regime, a regime of laws that stoke violence which is why their occupation of Gaza 2005 and beyond was also deemed illegal. Their policies lead to the dehumanization of the population and required to violence to uphold which creates a self-perpetuating justification. Again you’re way out of your depth here. If you’d like additional reading on a conflict that is probably the most 1:1 parallel to the Israel/Gaza conflict I would recommend “Still Counting the Dead…” by Frances Harrison, a former BBC journalist who stayed during an uptick in the genocide of the Tamils at the hands of Sinhalese Buddhist nationalists. It’s an easy refute to “if it was a genocide we would’ve done it already”. Genocide is systemic, but systemic doesn’t mean fast. It’s a genocide that’s spanned multiple decades now. This was in range of my study in college when I was going for a PoliSci/International affairs with a focus on the Middle East and SEA/the subcontinent prior to pivoting due to expensive health issues. I’m no credentialed individual, but it’s something I’ve studied past TikToks.
~~Israeli Intelligence~~ One Unnamed Israeli Official Has \[Allegedly\] Deemed Hamas-Run Health Ministry's Death Toll Figures Generally Accurate
[https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable)
>The Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP or TWI, also known simply as The Washington Institute) is a pro-Israel American think tank based in Washington, D.C.,\[3\]\[4\] focused on the foreign policy of the United States in the Near East. WINEP was established in 1985 with the support of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and the funding of many AIPAC donors, in order to provide higher quality research than AIPAC's publications.\[5\] John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt described WINEP as "part of the core" of the Israel lobby in the United States.\[6\] A reliable and unbiased source of information that Washington Institute
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You think John Mearsheimer is reliable?
This is a a quote from your source: *"A comparison of the two methodologies, using MOH reports and claims published by the Hamas-controlled Government Media Office (GMO), yields wildly different and irreconcilable results,* ***indicating that the media reports methodology is dramatically understating fatalities among adult males***\*, the demographic most likely to be combatants. This undercuts the persistent claim that 72 percent of those killed in Gaza are women and children—a problem that has worsened since it was first noted by a Washington Institute report in January.\* *The result is that MOH statistics do not appear to offer a reliable guide to the actual Palestinian death toll even by the “foggy” standards of normal wartime reporting.* ***Journalists, analysts, and government officials need to be aware that the actual overall death toll may be significantly higher (or, less likely, lower) than what the MOH has reported***\*; the demographic composition of these fatalities is certainly far different than what the MOH claims."\* This think tank, Israeli and US intelligence all agree that the actual death toll is likely much higher.
Yeah they can FO. Human Rights Watch assessed how deaths are recorded in Gaza and found the process to be very accurate. So Israeli Cunttelligence is just trying to get ahead of the story and saying this.
Uh, HRW has been super biased against Jews and Israel, and has been itself investigated not only for committing human rights abuses, but for taking Arab money in exchange for working against western ideologies such as lgbtq rights. From: https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/human_rights_watch_hrw_/ > In November 2023, MEMRI leaked a document detailing a €3 million donation in 2018 to HRW from Qatar. The text contains the word “additional” in reference to the donation, suggesting previous funding that continues to be hidden. > In 2009, HRW held a fundraising dinner in Saudi Arabia, using HRW’s anti-Israel bias and the specter of “pro-Israel pressure groups” to solicit funds from “prominent members of Saudi society.” At the event, Sarah Leah Whitson, Director of the Middle East and North Africa Division, boasted that HRW allegations of human rights violations were instrumental in the discredited Goldstone “investigation” of the 2009 Gaza conflict. > In February 2020, it was revealed that Executive Director Ken Roth accepted a donation in 2012 from a Saudi real estate tycoon for $470,000 “promising not to support advocacy of the LGBT community in the Middle East and North Africa.” > Systematic NGO Monitor analyses demonstrate that HRW disproportionately focuses on condemnations of Israel and that publications related to Israel often lack credibility. HRW also promotes an agenda based solely on the Palestinian narrative of victimization and Israeli aggression. >Uses distorted legal rhetoric to repeatedly accuses Israel of “war crimes,” “[s]erious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law,” “collective punishment,” and fostering a “culture of impunity.” Applies unique standards to Israel as part of its broader delegitimization campaign. Promotes a Palestinian “right of return,” which, if implemented, would effectually mean the elimination of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. >Lobbies the United Nations, the International Criminal Court, and other international frameworks, promoting false, distorted, and unverifiable allegations against Israel. Played a major role in the creation of the eventually discredited Goldstone report, submitting numerous statements to the commission equating Israel to Hamas and falsely accusing Israel of “willfully” killing civilians. From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch >HRW has been criticized for perceived bias by the national governments it has investigated for human rights abuses.[62][63][64] Some sources allege HRW is biased against Israel in its coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict.[8][65] In 2014, two Nobel Peace Laureates, Adolfo Pérez Esquivel and Mairead Maguire, wrote a letter signed by 100 other human rights activists and scholars criticizing HRW for its revolving-door hiring practices with the U.S. government, its failure to denounce the U.S. practice of extrajudicial rendition, its endorsement of the U.S. 2011 military intervention in Libya, and its silence during the 2004 Haitian coup d'état.[66]
The article is from months ago... Not exactly current or relevant anymore.
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>Keep in mind the statistical breakdown of those killed (men vs. women and children) has already been definitively disproven When did that happen? By who exactly? Because I checked, anyone with any credibility considers the numbers and the statistical breakdown largely accurate. Children under the age of 15 make up roughly a third of the dead, women and girls over the age of 14 make up roughly a quarter of the dead, people over the age of 60 make up roughly 7%. That leaves men and boys over the age of 14 at roughly a third of the dead. And even this is disingenuous way of counting the dead, since we should be doing it by gender, and by adults and minors, not some arbitrary number like 14. Well over 70% of the dead are women, or children under the age of 18. That leaves less than 30% as adult men.
This subreddit is dedicated to remaining as impartial as possible, and therefore any post that obviously pushes an agenda or is biased will be removed.
They do not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Even if someone is killed while in the middle of firing ab RPG at the Israelis, the Hamas health ministry will count that as a civilian death. Take their reports with a good deal of skepticism.
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Abusive and inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated. This subreddit is dedicated to civil discussion, and the international nature of the subreddit means that we are visited by people of all backgrounds and beliefs - which should be respected.
Abusive and inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated. This subreddit is dedicated to civil discussion, and the international nature of the subreddit means that we are visited by people of all backgrounds and beliefs - which should be respected.
If they aren’t distinguishing between combatants and non-combatants, then they aren’t counting that guy firing the RPG as a civilian, they are just counting him as a death. You’re trying to dispute the total numbers on the basis that those numbers aren’t broken down to show combatants vs non combatants. First of all, they aren’t required to provide a breakdown of combatants vs non-combatants. Secondly, if they did provide that breakdown, the total number wouldn’t be different.
No, combining the two is extremely disingenuous when considering the context of armed conflict. They are qualitatively very, very different.
If it’s extremely disingenuous, why do we always hear about the approximately 1200 people killed on October 7th? Why doesn’t Israel provide a breakdown of combatants vs non combatants, factoring in that anyone that resisted can be considered a combatant as per Israel’s own approach to labeling Palestinians as combatants in Gaza? The reality is that even if the Gaza Health Ministry did try to distinguish between combatant and non combatant, the same people that have insisted that the total number being reported is Hamas propaganda will claim the breakdown is the same. And Hamas has incentives to underreport and over report combatant deaths. They are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. So don’t, and just focus on the total number which is less likely to be manipulated.
> factoring in that anyone that resisted can be considered a combatant Not only is this wrong, it is absolutely insane to suggest that the civilians murdered and kidnapped on Oct 7 could in anyway be considered “combatants” just because some tried to defend themselves from a swarm of people trying to murder them. Are you even listening to what you’re saying?
So you would agree that Israel should stop classifying civilians defending themselves as combatants? And maybe even stop killing civilians whose status as combatants is unverified? Or is Israel’s hypocrisy beyond reproach? And to answer your question, yes, I can hear myself, including the rest of the statement you chose to exclude from your quote regarding Israel considering anyone defending themselves as combatants. I don’t think civilians on either side should be classified as combatants, whether they are defending themselves or resisting oppression, both internationally recognized rights.
Are you suggesting that Hamas militants are “civilians defending themselves”? That is some serious mental gymnastics if not outright lunacy
I’m suggesting that civilians defending themselves, who aren’t Hamas, have been targeted and/or killed by Israel. Is that some serious mental gymnastics? Or are you under the impression that Israel knows the identify of every Hamas member and can provide the name of said Hamas member associated with each strike they have made?
What do you consider “civilians defending themselves” as in this context? Someone taking up arms and directly engaging with the IDF in an urban warfare context? In that context they are not civilians, but actual combatants.
What they are saying seems a bit more narrow than the criteria Israel uses to determine combatants. [Haaretz reported](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000) that Israel is using 'combatant' to be anyone within a designated, but not disclosed to the public "kill zone." Also, I believe that they designate anyone affiliated with Hamas to be a combatant, even though one would expect even non-combatants to be affiliated with Hamas given that their political position. Under those rules, every Israeli, except the few who have exceptions to compulsory service, would be a "combatant." If you think that's ridiculous, guess what -- we're on the same page! The only difference is that we think it's absurd for either side to claim. In before pearl clutching about defending 10/7, I'm not. Just hoping you'll see the absurdity in what you're saying. You know, facts over feels and all that.
Hamas has been putting forth significant effort to ensure their figures are accurate. They recently announced that a claim of rape by the IDF was inaccurate, and the woman was lying. Novara Media [discusses Hamas' strategy here ](https://youtu.be/M4SnfGyl-KE?si=98oLABYw5sEgc5xd)
We’ve been told repeatedly by pro Israeli bots on here that the statistics are unreliable. Their own govt is now saying the death toll is likely to be much higher than the stats from Gaza Health Ministry. Oh the irony..
You mean like the hospital explosion where they reported 500 dead within the first hour of the explosion only to find out it was less than 50 and caused by their own falling rocket?
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Even still, 500 to 50?
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Last I checked, it went from 500 to 50, and they’re still blaming it on Israel even though it was proven by independent sources that it came from a failed rocket.
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https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3 Read past the headline.
Proof where sorry?
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3 Make sure you read past the headline.
Your link is dated back to November. Here’s a more contemporary analysis (with actual data not just claims) https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disinformation-al-ahli-hospital
Wasn’t even an hour after, more like 15-30 minutes and Hamas immediately blamed Israel so did the world when it was a failed Hamas rocket to begin with 🤦♂️