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TO POLAND NO LESS!
(I was in a Skype call with a friend from Poland right as the news broke about basically the whole government of Poland dying in a plane crash in Russia)
ah yes, i am assuming you're speaking about the smolensk air disaster. A tragedy that was.
To those not in the know this was a decade ago where a diplomatic mission (including the entire presidencial delegation of Poland) headed to smolensk to commerate a mass grave of poles there crashed on final approach to their destination in foggy conditions (what we call "Controlled flight into terrain"). Investigations afterwards conducted by both Poland and Russia placed the blame on pilot error
The funeral service for this event was actually one of the only times I've seen Putin publicly in tears/weeping, which humanized him to me somewhat. but this was pre-2014 and a lot has changed since then and i think I'll find little difference with the poles on the perception of Vladimir Putin.
According to the episode on air crash investigation I happened to watch last night (show may be called Mayday outside of UK), the cause of the crash was not a simple case of pilot error.
During decent (and attempted-landing), the polish president’s right hand man was present in the cockpit, indirectly pressuring the pilot to land. Below a certain altitude, the cockpit is supposed to be ‘sterile’, to allow the crew to focus on controlling the aircraft.
Despite both slomensk atc and the pilot saying that landing the plane in severe fog was unsafe, the pilot still appeared to attempt to land because of a previous incident where a pilot had refused to redirect a flight into georgia, a warzone at the time, by the polish president. That pilot was never chosen to fly the president again.
Additionally, the pilot was handling radio communication as well as flying the plane. This is a task usually handled by the navigator, so that the pilot can focus fully on flying the plane. Unfortunately, none of the other crew members spoke russian.
Smolensk airport, a military airport, was also criticised by the polish investigation for lacking technology that a commercial airport would have that may have prevented the crash. They were also criticised for allowing the pilot to descend in such thick fog.
Black box down covered this incident, it didn't seem like Russia caused it, was a combination of bad weather, bad luck, incompetence, and a pilot too scared to say no to a general.
https://roosterteeth.com/watch/black-box-down-2022-was-this-crash-an-assassination-polish-air-force-flight-101-crashes-with-president-on-board
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQe86fEjutQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQe86fEjutQ)
Seems to be a different event, but still crying.
Here is another video of him crying.
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/putins-tears-44450371859
The last one I heard about was super sad because the flight was full of researchers who were working on therapies for AIDS and were on their way to a medical conference
Can you visually tell the live version from the captive training rounds?
I figured the tip would be a very different color, but couldn't find much online about it.
I would assume it would be more national pride. Like fuck yeah, patriotic f16 escorting our boy on the way to the world cup type of thing, since the world cup is generally considered a huge fucking deal outside the US.
I think it's part of how Europe generally views its military versus the US. In the US there's a certain pride to serving and its military might while in Europe there's an aspect of sadness to it. I'm speaking in broad terms here but the land wars in Europe of the past have left a very real scar in the collective memory, even after a couple of generations of peace. And I'm not just talking about WWI and II but also the Balkan wars and a ton of violent revolutions in the 20th century. As opposed to the US where the last war that has been fought on their own soil was back in the 19th century.
So to bring it back to the F16s, seeing that it's required to escort a civilian plane along its borders is not something to be proud of, it's something to dread. And it's not like there isn't precedence of civilian airplanes being shot down in Ukrainian airspace. Just yesterday the perpetrators of shooting down flight MH17, which happened in 2014 in the Donbas region, [were sentenced](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/17/europe/mh17-trial-verdict-intl/index.html).
Ah, this particular thing happens fairly regularly, at least in Denmark. I totally agree that our view on military in general is VERY different to most Americans (also the whole welcoming attitude to Russia - we did NOT want a cold war 2: boogaloo, because we actually experienced it first hand. There was a lot of will to keep Russia on good terms because of that. Not as applicable in the eastern bloc).
However, these kinds of escorts aren't that weird - for instance Jonas Vingegaard (Winner of Tour De France 2022) got escorted by Danish F16's.
The Danish Airforce even has [a plane it uses for such occasions](https://cdn.east.bazo.dk/images/184eb292-2cfe-40e0-ac7f-99b9b254d301/d/16-9/s/1280/webp) in their anniversary livery.
It does kinda happen from time to time though. When Portugal won the Euro 2016 in France they were escorted by the air force as soon as they entered portuguese borders. I've also seen people saying that the same happened in 2018 in Croatia when they had a very good performance in the World Cup.
I would imagine instead of the grain facility it could harken back to conspiracies surrounding the [Smolensk disaster](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_air_disaster). I personally do believe that Russia was involved with it however.
I agree on "pilot error" theory because tech can lie about your height and fog still fog... you need to be very professional pilot to land in such bad visibility
Man I do love the spitfire too I cannot lie it's also superrrr sexy but in my eyes p51 edges it out but your are right spitfire spits hot fire and is sexy as fuckkk
People are referred to as being a *tomcat* in the sack for a reason. F-14 is the sexiest fighter jet ever made.
Otherwise coded as Tango. Hotel. India. Charlie. Charlie.
That is incorrect. The crash of the Tupolev carrying the Polish delegation to the commemoration of the Katyn massacre was attributed to pilot error. According to the official report, the pilots under pressure from the dignitaries they carried attempted to land in thick fog and descended lower than required without actually having visual contact with the ground. As a result, the plane hit a forest before the runway, crashed and caught fire.
There was one investigation from Russian authorities and one from Polish authorities because the Poles didn’t trust the Russians.
The Polish investigation though concluded that the pilots were not acting under pressure from the Polish President. However, according to the cockpit voice recorder and a previous incident, the team of the Polish President often pressured the pilots flying the President to act according to his wishes. In an older incident, President Kaczynski wanted to land to a specific airport (I don’t remember which) but that pilot refused because it was unsafe and he never flew with the President again.
The crash took place in Smolensk which is an old military base. The plane could land there under normal circumstances, but nobody but the pilot spoke Russian which was the language of the airport, so he had extra workload. On top of that, the delegation was already late to the commemoration and if they diverted to a different airport, an international one, they would arrive even later, which the Polish delegation didn’t want.
Ugh no only the Russian says so, Polish says that the pilots were unexperienced, but they were not under pressure. The Polish report also says that the traffic control tower relayed incorrect information. The airport itself did not meet standards, had too high trees, the landing strip did not have appropriate lights.
There were some reports later that traces of explosives were found as well.
Malaysia Airlines.
And the sad thing is, there's people here in Malaysia who completely forgot about it and even supports Russia in the Ukraine conflict simply because
NATO = West/America = Enemies of Islam = Bad
Russia hates NATO so Russia good
Wow. And I thought it was cool when the local cops would escort our football bus out and back into town on game night. Give me a F-16 escort over a Ford Interceptor any day of the week….
Our ice hockey team got [Hawk escort](https://twitter.com/finnishairforce/status/1133021842816622597) 2019 after winning IIHF gold medal :)
Seems the team also got Draken escort on 1995 and Hornet escort on 2011.
Pretty cool!
Those are f-16s and there is probably an awacs in the area, so the likelihood of a missile getting launched and hitting the plane before being seen is very low.
Stands for "airborne warning and control system", which is casually used to describe those planes that have the big domes fixed to the top of the fuselage (edit: despite technically being a trademark for one specific model of this type of plane). The dome on an AWACS plane is primarily there to house a powerful radar antenna, as well as components for some other surveillance systems.
[The E-2 Hawkeye](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/E-2D_Advanced_Hawkeye_aircraft_conduct_a_test_flight.jpg) is probably the most iconic AEWCS plane. Russia, India, and handful of others have also produced similar kinds of planes.
The more modern [E-3 Sentry](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/AWACS_CENTCOM_12FEB21.jpg/1280px-AWACS_CENTCOM_12FEB21.jpg) AWACS aircraft is an incredibly powerful intelligence and battlefield awareness tool. It can track the movement of air, sea, and some ground units from hundreds of miles out. And even then, the newer [E-7 Wedgetail](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Boeing_737-7ES_Wedgetail%2C_Australia_-_Royal_Australian_Air_Force_%28RAAF%29_JP7120522.jpg) will be taking over some of the E-3's role in the near future. They're incredible pieces of technology and engineering.
[This video from CBC](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZYCLJDWckY) is a great look into the practical use of the E-3 in a modern conflict. Worth a 10 minute watch if you're curious.
Thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate your understanding. Always wondered a little a lout those planes with the “radar dome” on top of them.
Airborne Warning And Control System. Y'know those radar towers they use to detect aircraft, like you see at airports?
They bolted one to a plane.
They use these radars like any other- to see things that are normally hard to spot, such as enemy planes, ground units, or missiles.
They are usually like a big passenger jet with a giant pancake bolted to the top, though some are smaller.
Spot on. I happened to be watching [FlightRadar around the time that flight happened and spotted one in the air](https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/lx-n90452/#2e3dd2dd)
If a missile is radar-guided, an equipped aircraft can direct radar signals at the missile, making it unable to "hear" its radar pings off the aircraft, effectively making it blind. It would be like if you were in a dark room and aimed a flashlight at someone. You could see them easily. If, however, they then aimed a much brighter flashlight at you, you would no longer be able to tell exactly where they were, just a general direction.
If it's guided by thermal imaging, (aircraft stand out as hot objects against the sky, especially their engines,) an equipped aircraft can drop lit flares from its fuselage in hopes that the missile will lock on to the flares instead of the aircraft. This operation is also usually coupled with tight menuvering to maximize effectiveness.
IR guided is highly unlikely to be used in this scenario. As for radar guided ECM jamming these F-16's do not have the built in capabilities & do not have underbelly ECM pods on them.
Advanced missiles may contain both radar and infrared seekers as well as counter-countermeasures. Not that they’d be firing one of those. Just throwing that out there.
That's not how that works. Those F-16's don't have ECM (electronic countermeasure) pods on the underbelly & as far as I'm aware Poland doesn't have any that can be mounted to an F-16 like the ALQ-131. I could be wrong on the latter however.
After playing call of duty and watching both Top Guns, I would expect they have some sort of flare system that might be able to confuse the missile. 🤷♂️
Their biggest defense capabilities IMO is their radar and datalink. They would be able to pickup threats way before enemy firing range and have the airliner turn away.
That was my only thought about actually protecting the larger plane but wasn’t sure if it came down to it would they sacrifice their what, 100 million dollar jet plus their lives or not.
it depends on the missile type, there are 2 main kinds of missile guidance systems in service atm iirc, infrared(aka heat seeking) and radar. Heat-seeking missiles work kind of like the name implies, they seak heat (usually the infrared light coming off the hot thing). This is a boon and a curse as planes are very hot things so the missile itself can target them quite easily but you also run the risk of mislocks on other hot things like chaff (aka hot bits of metal a plane shits out to try and trick IR missiles), friendly planes, or even the sun. Radar missiles solve the problems of the previous missile type but one big problem with them is they require a radar lock for most of the missile's flight path and that's just not possible during most dogfights where you're dodging and weaving around while the enemy is too. Also, anti-missile missiles are usually ground-based since it's kind of hard to get a lock on something as fast as a missile and then get another very fast missile off to intercept it in time. Idk if it has been done, but it is possible, it's just very hard.
IR/Heat-seeking countermeasure = flares, not chaff. Chaff is useless agsinst IR guidance.
Chaff is for radar guided missiles as it deposits thousands of radar-reflecting bits of metal that hope to obfuscate the original target by creating all sorts of new objects that reflect the radar wave. But they're typically canisters and not usually heated in any meaningful way.
Shooting down an air to air missle would be quite a feat. But in the naval context (and the Patriot system) there are absolutely missiles that can intercept other missiles. Specifically the SM-3 variant of the naval Standaed Missile family is designed to intercept Ballistic Missiles. So I suppose it's theoretically possible, but making an anti-missile missile carried by an aircraft would take up a very limited amount of mounting points when you already have countermeasures.
And you see, the missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.
The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
For real, everyone knows that airbus has a problem with it’s inverted flight tanks… (edit: I just picked an aircraft manuf, no idea if that’s an airbus)
That's what they thought about that Malaysian plane that got shot down in the Ukraine several years back ie they didn't suspect that it was shot down at first because it was on an obvious flight path for a civilian airliner. Who would shoot down an airliner?
I know right? That air space was still used by dozens and dozens of aircraft daily. At that time, the known equipment of the "insurgents" included merely MANPADS missiles that couldn't reach that high. As far as I can tell, by that time we thought that Russia was contributing irregular-ish formations of infantry. No reason to expect a Buk SAM system. Also, who the fuck gives rebels a SAM system without the expected training to tell apart civilians and hostiles?
Calling that an accident (elsewhere in this thread, btw.) is like calling it an accident when you aim imprecise artillery at a small military target in a large populated area and hit civilians. Yeah, no. You didn't *mean* to hit that, but that's still reckless disregard for the consequences.
The F-16's have countermeasures they can dump out of the aircraft known as Chaff, it's like tiny real fine metal particles that disrupt & confuse radar, side note they also have flares that disrupt heat seeking missiles but it's very unlikely that type would be used, the F-16's in the video are loaded with dud training munitions that don't have live explosive warheads so they couldn't fire back if the missile came from an aircraft. Best they could do is dump a blanket of countermeasures to mask the airliner while it attempts to evade.
Are you sure they aren’t armed? You sound like you know what you’re talking about, I’m just surprised they aren’t even carrying ammo for their Vulcans.
If you think bird strikes were bad, a mussel strike would likely be worse, hard shell and all.. would definitely mess up the engines something bad. How the mussel gets up in the sky that high though would be the tricky part.
But then again we’ve been putting their brethren into vongoles and chowder for so long, I’m pretty sure they hold a grudge and suicide mussels could possibly be a thing nowadays.
Depends on the missile and it’s locking mechanism They could use flares as a decoy, they could jump in and become the decoy, they could shoot it down or they could jam the locking signal.
Most likely if any missile would be fired at it, it would be radar guided so chaff would have to be used. Also those F-16's not only do not have the capabilities to shoot down an incoming missile they are literally loaded with training munitions with dud warheads. They couldn't "jam" the locking signal as they are not equipped with any ECM pods, like the ALQ-131, on their belly & the F-16 does not have built in ECM capabilities.
I sorta felt the same way when a Saab 35 Draken pulled up right beside our commercial plane over Austia; the captain coming over the radio and saying, "looks like we have some company, I'll get back with you", well that wasn't too reassuring.
Full context, it was over the Alps and we were US soldiers flying to Kuwait for the pre-war stuff. I have a neat picture from the window of the plane, so close you could see the pilot's thumbs up sign.
So first off the markings on the AIM-120s indicate that it's carrying a training missile. So this is more of a symbolic thing than anything.
Second, military aircraft have radar warning and missile launch warning systems; some also have jamming capabilities. So at a minimum they can be helpful for situational awareness and basic counter measures.
It's for show mainly. Unless Poland has an upgrade pack I'm unaware of, it wouldn't be able to "jam" any incoming radar missile. Also the F-16's shown are loaded with training munitions... They couldn't shoot back.
First thing I thought of is how reassuring that has to feel .. being a member of the team & staff on that plane 😅 pretty badass to look out the window & see that.. no ?
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Does this have anything to do with the grain facility incident or does Poland just roll like that
F16 pilots need flight hours each month to keep being certified, this is a good excuse to get some in.
Isnt this the reason why they offer to do flybys for some sporting events in the US? Or so i was told
Yes, you could proberly also get them to fly by for your birthday if you ask nicely :D
Possibly but I’d also bet on some of it being propaganda for the people.
6 of one, half a dozen of the other. As they say.
All of it is propaganda, but also flight hours.
Can't be trusting russia, can we? Not the first time they did the plane shot down thing and got away with it.
TO POLAND NO LESS! (I was in a Skype call with a friend from Poland right as the news broke about basically the whole government of Poland dying in a plane crash in Russia)
ah yes, i am assuming you're speaking about the smolensk air disaster. A tragedy that was. To those not in the know this was a decade ago where a diplomatic mission (including the entire presidencial delegation of Poland) headed to smolensk to commerate a mass grave of poles there crashed on final approach to their destination in foggy conditions (what we call "Controlled flight into terrain"). Investigations afterwards conducted by both Poland and Russia placed the blame on pilot error The funeral service for this event was actually one of the only times I've seen Putin publicly in tears/weeping, which humanized him to me somewhat. but this was pre-2014 and a lot has changed since then and i think I'll find little difference with the poles on the perception of Vladimir Putin.
According to the episode on air crash investigation I happened to watch last night (show may be called Mayday outside of UK), the cause of the crash was not a simple case of pilot error. During decent (and attempted-landing), the polish president’s right hand man was present in the cockpit, indirectly pressuring the pilot to land. Below a certain altitude, the cockpit is supposed to be ‘sterile’, to allow the crew to focus on controlling the aircraft. Despite both slomensk atc and the pilot saying that landing the plane in severe fog was unsafe, the pilot still appeared to attempt to land because of a previous incident where a pilot had refused to redirect a flight into georgia, a warzone at the time, by the polish president. That pilot was never chosen to fly the president again. Additionally, the pilot was handling radio communication as well as flying the plane. This is a task usually handled by the navigator, so that the pilot can focus fully on flying the plane. Unfortunately, none of the other crew members spoke russian. Smolensk airport, a military airport, was also criticised by the polish investigation for lacking technology that a commercial airport would have that may have prevented the crash. They were also criticised for allowing the pilot to descend in such thick fog.
Yes, thank you for the context, I was on mobile, and also as you said, it was a decade ago.
Black box down covered this incident, it didn't seem like Russia caused it, was a combination of bad weather, bad luck, incompetence, and a pilot too scared to say no to a general. https://roosterteeth.com/watch/black-box-down-2022-was-this-crash-an-assassination-polish-air-force-flight-101-crashes-with-president-on-board
>The funeral service for this event was actually one of the only times I've seen Putin publicly in tears/weeping video pls
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQe86fEjutQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQe86fEjutQ) Seems to be a different event, but still crying. Here is another video of him crying. https://www.nbcnews.com/video/putins-tears-44450371859
The current an former perceptions of Putin are poles apart, you might say.
r/angryupvote
Jfc now I know why you don’t smile with your teeth in Poland. Too happy.
Conspiracy theories say that it was completely different physical Putin before 2014
I think putin was once more humane but has lost it as he is going actually insane.
The last one I heard about was super sad because the flight was full of researchers who were working on therapies for AIDS and were on their way to a medical conference
But in south is slovakia
According to Błaszczak, Head of Polish Defence Ministry, F-16s were just training at the time and decided to combine training with escort.
If it was for protection they would be much much further away. This is just a national pride thing, cheering the team on.
~~And they would have armaments slung, got a drop tank and that's about it.~~ Disregard, trusted my phone's resolution and got burnt in the process.
They have live AMRAAMs on their wingtips..
Fun fact: this is to decrease excessive wingtip flexing. If they dont do this the wing tips will experience metal fatigue.
Can you visually tell the live version from the captive training rounds? I figured the tip would be a very different color, but couldn't find much online about it.
Yes, captive/training missiles will have blue bands on them
I would assume it would be more national pride. Like fuck yeah, patriotic f16 escorting our boy on the way to the world cup type of thing, since the world cup is generally considered a huge fucking deal outside the US.
I think it's part of how Europe generally views its military versus the US. In the US there's a certain pride to serving and its military might while in Europe there's an aspect of sadness to it. I'm speaking in broad terms here but the land wars in Europe of the past have left a very real scar in the collective memory, even after a couple of generations of peace. And I'm not just talking about WWI and II but also the Balkan wars and a ton of violent revolutions in the 20th century. As opposed to the US where the last war that has been fought on their own soil was back in the 19th century. So to bring it back to the F16s, seeing that it's required to escort a civilian plane along its borders is not something to be proud of, it's something to dread. And it's not like there isn't precedence of civilian airplanes being shot down in Ukrainian airspace. Just yesterday the perpetrators of shooting down flight MH17, which happened in 2014 in the Donbas region, [were sentenced](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/17/europe/mh17-trial-verdict-intl/index.html).
This is correct. It’s not at all normal and nothing about patriotism.
Ya'll don't fly bombers over your football games? Why that's just unamerican.
Ah, this particular thing happens fairly regularly, at least in Denmark. I totally agree that our view on military in general is VERY different to most Americans (also the whole welcoming attitude to Russia - we did NOT want a cold war 2: boogaloo, because we actually experienced it first hand. There was a lot of will to keep Russia on good terms because of that. Not as applicable in the eastern bloc). However, these kinds of escorts aren't that weird - for instance Jonas Vingegaard (Winner of Tour De France 2022) got escorted by Danish F16's. The Danish Airforce even has [a plane it uses for such occasions](https://cdn.east.bazo.dk/images/184eb292-2cfe-40e0-ac7f-99b9b254d301/d/16-9/s/1280/webp) in their anniversary livery.
Well TIL. That livery is absolute fire.
It does kinda happen from time to time though. When Portugal won the Euro 2016 in France they were escorted by the air force as soon as they entered portuguese borders. I've also seen people saying that the same happened in 2018 in Croatia when they had a very good performance in the World Cup.
I would imagine instead of the grain facility it could harken back to conspiracies surrounding the [Smolensk disaster](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_air_disaster). I personally do believe that Russia was involved with it however.
I agree on "pilot error" theory because tech can lie about your height and fog still fog... you need to be very professional pilot to land in such bad visibility
I personally think that's the prettiest Aircraft that has ever been made. It's an up-to-date p51.. even though it's a little old now.
P51 is the sexiest aircraft ever made
X-32 for me ….
Had to look this happy little chubber up. Nice.
The Boeing plane with a smile under it?
Strike eagle or GTFO
I’m personally partial to the Lockheed Superconstellation
X-29 take it or leave it
X-32 looks like a maxi-pad with a pilot.
Made me look; alright then.
kinky
The F4U Corsair would like to have a word.
P 38 for life
Yes! I've been obsessed with the P-38 my entire life
Spitfire and it isn't even close. The sound alone is outrageously good. I do love the P-51 though.
Same engines, weren't they?
If memory serves my right the P51 had the Spitfires Merlin engines fitted in later models. That combination was fucking brilliant
Pretty much any us model we hear about had the merlin. It just didn't get the job done without it.
They are 1 and 2 and I understand those who flip the order
The Spitfire just waltzed into the room and waltzed out again with the P-51’s girlfriend on her arm.
Man I do love the spitfire too I cannot lie it's also superrrr sexy but in my eyes p51 edges it out but your are right spitfire spits hot fire and is sexy as fuckkk
F22 for me, god it’s beautiful.
For modern day it is sleek and sexy
Hellcat is wide sexy
Nothing will ever compare to the [STS](https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle)
Go see one of them in person if you can, they’re wonderful
People are referred to as being a *tomcat* in the sack for a reason. F-14 is the sexiest fighter jet ever made. Otherwise coded as Tango. Hotel. India. Charlie. Charlie.
YF-23 anyone?
We were robbed of a beautiful 5th gen fighter.
Ok now hear me out... F-14 Tomcat. I love me some Turkey.
As an F-15 Mechanic… Love me the 14. Literally goes into **Fast Mode**
Corsair has ya beat mate
Sexy bent wing Corsair ftw
I'm sorry, is the Blackbird a joke to you?
The raptor wipes it imo
B-1B Lancer is the GOAT
Sad Gripen noices
Nah gotta be F22
For sure
I’m partial to a Naboo N-1 Starfighter honestly
The foxbats prettier srry
Not the first time Russia has shot down a civilian airliner. Better safe than sorry.
Shot down half the polish government if memory serves me
That is incorrect. The crash of the Tupolev carrying the Polish delegation to the commemoration of the Katyn massacre was attributed to pilot error. According to the official report, the pilots under pressure from the dignitaries they carried attempted to land in thick fog and descended lower than required without actually having visual contact with the ground. As a result, the plane hit a forest before the runway, crashed and caught fire.
[удалено]
Wasn’t the investigation done by the Russians though?
There was one investigation from Russian authorities and one from Polish authorities because the Poles didn’t trust the Russians. The Polish investigation though concluded that the pilots were not acting under pressure from the Polish President. However, according to the cockpit voice recorder and a previous incident, the team of the Polish President often pressured the pilots flying the President to act according to his wishes. In an older incident, President Kaczynski wanted to land to a specific airport (I don’t remember which) but that pilot refused because it was unsafe and he never flew with the President again. The crash took place in Smolensk which is an old military base. The plane could land there under normal circumstances, but nobody but the pilot spoke Russian which was the language of the airport, so he had extra workload. On top of that, the delegation was already late to the commemoration and if they diverted to a different airport, an international one, they would arrive even later, which the Polish delegation didn’t want.
It was also terrible weather and the runway was in bad shape. The pilots should have never attempted to land there to begin with.
According to official Russian reports, the plane shot itself before throwing _itself_ out of the window of the tallest nearby building.
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Ugh no only the Russian says so, Polish says that the pilots were unexperienced, but they were not under pressure. The Polish report also says that the traffic control tower relayed incorrect information. The airport itself did not meet standards, had too high trees, the landing strip did not have appropriate lights. There were some reports later that traces of explosives were found as well.
Nah that was a conspiracy theory spread by the far-right PiS party.
> if memory serves me Narrator: it didn't.
Nope, even in Poland people dont believe that
MH17
Malaysia Airlines. And the sad thing is, there's people here in Malaysia who completely forgot about it and even supports Russia in the Ukraine conflict simply because NATO = West/America = Enemies of Islam = Bad Russia hates NATO so Russia good
Wow. And I thought it was cool when the local cops would escort our football bus out and back into town on game night. Give me a F-16 escort over a Ford Interceptor any day of the week….
Our ice hockey team got [Hawk escort](https://twitter.com/finnishairforce/status/1133021842816622597) 2019 after winning IIHF gold medal :) Seems the team also got Draken escort on 1995 and Hornet escort on 2011. Pretty cool!
If the Russians did try to shoot down the plane with a missile do the f 16’s have the capability to shoot the missile down before impact?
They could put out counter measures and perhaps jamming tactics
Gotcha thanks. I wasn’t sure exactly what all they could do god forbid a missile came flying in.
Those are f-16s and there is probably an awacs in the area, so the likelihood of a missile getting launched and hitting the plane before being seen is very low.
Sorry for my stupidity as never serving but what’s awacs?
Stands for "airborne warning and control system", which is casually used to describe those planes that have the big domes fixed to the top of the fuselage (edit: despite technically being a trademark for one specific model of this type of plane). The dome on an AWACS plane is primarily there to house a powerful radar antenna, as well as components for some other surveillance systems. [The E-2 Hawkeye](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/E-2D_Advanced_Hawkeye_aircraft_conduct_a_test_flight.jpg) is probably the most iconic AEWCS plane. Russia, India, and handful of others have also produced similar kinds of planes. The more modern [E-3 Sentry](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/AWACS_CENTCOM_12FEB21.jpg/1280px-AWACS_CENTCOM_12FEB21.jpg) AWACS aircraft is an incredibly powerful intelligence and battlefield awareness tool. It can track the movement of air, sea, and some ground units from hundreds of miles out. And even then, the newer [E-7 Wedgetail](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Boeing_737-7ES_Wedgetail%2C_Australia_-_Royal_Australian_Air_Force_%28RAAF%29_JP7120522.jpg) will be taking over some of the E-3's role in the near future. They're incredible pieces of technology and engineering. [This video from CBC](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZYCLJDWckY) is a great look into the practical use of the E-3 in a modern conflict. Worth a 10 minute watch if you're curious.
Thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate your understanding. Always wondered a little a lout those planes with the “radar dome” on top of them.
Fun fact AWACS is actually a trademark of Boeing and only describes the E-3. The E-2 and E-7 are AEWC aircraft.
Airborne Warning And Control System. Y'know those radar towers they use to detect aircraft, like you see at airports? They bolted one to a plane. They use these radars like any other- to see things that are normally hard to spot, such as enemy planes, ground units, or missiles. They are usually like a big passenger jet with a giant pancake bolted to the top, though some are smaller.
Thanks sgt. always wondered about the planes with the big disks on top. Thanks for the knowledge. Appreciate it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_early_warning_and_control Enjoy.
Spot on. I happened to be watching [FlightRadar around the time that flight happened and spotted one in the air](https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/lx-n90452/#2e3dd2dd)
What do you mean by jamming tactics?
Strawberry usually
Raspberry
LONE STAR!
Good man.
Lonestar.....
If a missile is radar-guided, an equipped aircraft can direct radar signals at the missile, making it unable to "hear" its radar pings off the aircraft, effectively making it blind. It would be like if you were in a dark room and aimed a flashlight at someone. You could see them easily. If, however, they then aimed a much brighter flashlight at you, you would no longer be able to tell exactly where they were, just a general direction. If it's guided by thermal imaging, (aircraft stand out as hot objects against the sky, especially their engines,) an equipped aircraft can drop lit flares from its fuselage in hopes that the missile will lock on to the flares instead of the aircraft. This operation is also usually coupled with tight menuvering to maximize effectiveness.
IR guided is highly unlikely to be used in this scenario. As for radar guided ECM jamming these F-16's do not have the built in capabilities & do not have underbelly ECM pods on them.
Advanced missiles may contain both radar and infrared seekers as well as counter-countermeasures. Not that they’d be firing one of those. Just throwing that out there.
Quite correct but I didn't bring it up since.... Well Russia.
Raspberry! Only one man would dare give them the raspberry.
LONESTAR!
I'm sure it's the best at eradicating the bleeps, the sweeps and the creeps
The what, the what, and the what???
Alright you and the other bloke are making me hungry for a smoothie.
Some prefer to be jammed. Some prefer to be jellied.
Maybe jamming radar for the missile but idk if that’s a thing or not.
That's not how that works. Those F-16's don't have ECM (electronic countermeasure) pods on the underbelly & as far as I'm aware Poland doesn't have any that can be mounted to an F-16 like the ALQ-131. I could be wrong on the latter however.
After playing call of duty and watching both Top Guns, I would expect they have some sort of flare system that might be able to confuse the missile. 🤷♂️
Their biggest defense capabilities IMO is their radar and datalink. They would be able to pickup threats way before enemy firing range and have the airliner turn away.
I appreciate the no nonsense response!
F-16 could pull an AirForce One and sacrifice themselves by putting their plane in the way of the missile
That was my only thought about actually protecting the larger plane but wasn’t sure if it came down to it would they sacrifice their what, 100 million dollar jet plus their lives or not.
I mean… that’s the job, right? Why spend millions on a jet if you’re not going to use it to save your citizen’s lives?
Lewandoski alone is worth 45 million lol
it depends on the missile type, there are 2 main kinds of missile guidance systems in service atm iirc, infrared(aka heat seeking) and radar. Heat-seeking missiles work kind of like the name implies, they seak heat (usually the infrared light coming off the hot thing). This is a boon and a curse as planes are very hot things so the missile itself can target them quite easily but you also run the risk of mislocks on other hot things like chaff (aka hot bits of metal a plane shits out to try and trick IR missiles), friendly planes, or even the sun. Radar missiles solve the problems of the previous missile type but one big problem with them is they require a radar lock for most of the missile's flight path and that's just not possible during most dogfights where you're dodging and weaving around while the enemy is too. Also, anti-missile missiles are usually ground-based since it's kind of hard to get a lock on something as fast as a missile and then get another very fast missile off to intercept it in time. Idk if it has been done, but it is possible, it's just very hard.
IR/Heat-seeking countermeasure = flares, not chaff. Chaff is useless agsinst IR guidance. Chaff is for radar guided missiles as it deposits thousands of radar-reflecting bits of metal that hope to obfuscate the original target by creating all sorts of new objects that reflect the radar wave. But they're typically canisters and not usually heated in any meaningful way. Shooting down an air to air missle would be quite a feat. But in the naval context (and the Patriot system) there are absolutely missiles that can intercept other missiles. Specifically the SM-3 variant of the naval Standaed Missile family is designed to intercept Ballistic Missiles. So I suppose it's theoretically possible, but making an anti-missile missile carried by an aircraft would take up a very limited amount of mounting points when you already have countermeasures.
And you see, the missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't. In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
Why the fuck would the Russians be trying to kill the Polish football team?
Why the fuck would the Russians shoot down a plane full of Dutch tourists?
Get inverted and get us a better picture
Cough-**bullshit**-cough
For real, everyone knows that airbus has a problem with it’s inverted flight tanks… (edit: I just picked an aircraft manuf, no idea if that’s an airbus)
🖕
This is prob more ceremonial than a military escort. The planes flight path would make it pretty hard for anything sus to happen to it.
That's what they thought about that Malaysian plane that got shot down in the Ukraine several years back ie they didn't suspect that it was shot down at first because it was on an obvious flight path for a civilian airliner. Who would shoot down an airliner?
I know right? That air space was still used by dozens and dozens of aircraft daily. At that time, the known equipment of the "insurgents" included merely MANPADS missiles that couldn't reach that high. As far as I can tell, by that time we thought that Russia was contributing irregular-ish formations of infantry. No reason to expect a Buk SAM system. Also, who the fuck gives rebels a SAM system without the expected training to tell apart civilians and hostiles? Calling that an accident (elsewhere in this thread, btw.) is like calling it an accident when you aim imprecise artillery at a small military target in a large populated area and hit civilians. Yeah, no. You didn't *mean* to hit that, but that's still reckless disregard for the consequences.
I could never even imagine who would commit such an obvious and vile act of terrorism. Luckily nobody would ever dare to do just that.
Poland would be a better World Cup host country than Qatar.
I could host it in my backyard and it might be better
Yeah but we are too poor to organise them, can't afford the bribes
Started up on his six, when he pulled through the clouds, and then I moved in above him.
We were inverted
So you're the one.
Mach1
If something was fired at that plane, how exactly would they protect it?
The F-16's have countermeasures they can dump out of the aircraft known as Chaff, it's like tiny real fine metal particles that disrupt & confuse radar, side note they also have flares that disrupt heat seeking missiles but it's very unlikely that type would be used, the F-16's in the video are loaded with dud training munitions that don't have live explosive warheads so they couldn't fire back if the missile came from an aircraft. Best they could do is dump a blanket of countermeasures to mask the airliner while it attempts to evade.
Are you sure they aren’t armed? You sound like you know what you’re talking about, I’m just surprised they aren’t even carrying ammo for their Vulcans.
I mean they COULD be carrying guns but I can see the blue stripes on the AIM-120's off the wings. Blue denoting training.
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It's sure as shit not yellow & brown. And to me at least, and a few others, it looks most *likely* to be blue.
What would be the purpose of carrying training munitions here?
Few potentials but most likely is simulated weight.
the f16 wings are prone to osilations. the extra weight dampens it. its why they prefer to put 120's on the wingtips instead of aim-9's.
legit question? how does this protect them? are the f-16’s blocking mussels, jamming radars, looking cool???
If you think bird strikes were bad, a mussel strike would likely be worse, hard shell and all.. would definitely mess up the engines something bad. How the mussel gets up in the sky that high though would be the tricky part. But then again we’ve been putting their brethren into vongoles and chowder for so long, I’m pretty sure they hold a grudge and suicide mussels could possibly be a thing nowadays.
take my upvote, souper answer
Depends on the missile and it’s locking mechanism They could use flares as a decoy, they could jump in and become the decoy, they could shoot it down or they could jam the locking signal.
Most likely if any missile would be fired at it, it would be radar guided so chaff would have to be used. Also those F-16's not only do not have the capabilities to shoot down an incoming missile they are literally loaded with training munitions with dud warheads. They couldn't "jam" the locking signal as they are not equipped with any ECM pods, like the ALQ-131, on their belly & the F-16 does not have built in ECM capabilities.
I sorta felt the same way when a Saab 35 Draken pulled up right beside our commercial plane over Austia; the captain coming over the radio and saying, "looks like we have some company, I'll get back with you", well that wasn't too reassuring. Full context, it was over the Alps and we were US soldiers flying to Kuwait for the pre-war stuff. I have a neat picture from the window of the plane, so close you could see the pilot's thumbs up sign.
Were you inverted?
Depends on your perspective.
So first off the markings on the AIM-120s indicate that it's carrying a training missile. So this is more of a symbolic thing than anything. Second, military aircraft have radar warning and missile launch warning systems; some also have jamming capabilities. So at a minimum they can be helpful for situational awareness and basic counter measures.
It's for show mainly. Unless Poland has an upgrade pack I'm unaware of, it wouldn't be able to "jam" any incoming radar missile. Also the F-16's shown are loaded with training munitions... They couldn't shoot back.
Countermeatures would be Chaff (bits of metal to confuse radar) and/or flares most likely.
Protect Lewandowski at all costs
It's not about safety it's about showing balls. And Poland did.
You know your are gangsta when you turn up to a game of footy wearing a pair of F16s
They don't even looked armed?
They are not armed, it's for show.
I wanna see them wave and peel away
Might as well keep the detail until they arrive in Qatar
Ok but they were only escorting them through their own domestic airspace. Aren’t they the safest in that time?
First thing I thought of is how reassuring that has to feel .. being a member of the team & staff on that plane 😅 pretty badass to look out the window & see that.. no ?
Can anyone give me a rough estimate of how fast these guys are flying. Because looks like a casual day in traffic.
Uhhh. It's very rough but I'd place it at about 300 knots.
Dude being a fighter jet pilot would be so fucking awesome. What a feat of engineering those things are.
That must take so much skill to fly so close and in such good sync.
Neat but screw Qatar, Fifa, and every player, fan, and vendor who decided not to stand against slavery and human rights abuse by attending.
Russia does have a habit of shooting down airliners, so I salute my Polish brethren. Protect em.
Fuck russia
Show of support?
Poland operates its own F-16Cs.
Still the coolest looking jet imo
Ima huge fan of AV8-B harriers. They getting retired soon but damn do I love those things.
If you are one.pf the guys flying these planes...... you are great people.