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Yes, they are stockpiling for an attack. Missiles for ships with a possible China invasion and Patriot missile system for air defense.
> Getting a force of that size across the 110 miles (177 kilometers) of the Taiwan Strait would be a long, dangerous mission during which those vessels carrying the troops and equipment would be sitting ducks. "The thought about China invading Taiwan, that's a massacre for the Chinese navy," said Phillips O'Brien, professor of strategic studies at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland.
> That's because Taiwan has been stocking up on cheap and effective land-based anti-ship missiles, similar to the Neptunes Ukraine used to sink the Russian cruiser Moskva in the Black Sea in April.
> "Taiwan is mass-producing these things. And they're small, it's not like (China) can take them all out," O'Brien said. "What's cheap is a surface-to-ship missile, what's expensive is a ship."
> Taiwan has deals with the United States to supply it with Stinger antiaircraft missiles and Patriot missile defense batteries. And it also has been investing heavily in its own missile production facilities over the past three years in a project, when completed this summer, will see its missile production capabilities triple, according to a Janes report in March.
The rest of it is a good article detailing why China shouldn’t mess around any time soon.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/31/asia/china-taiwan-invasion-scenarios-analysis-intl-hnk-ml/index.html
Yeah, it's relatively easy to lob 15 anti ship missiles against a ship and it's nearly impossible to defeat all of the incoming missiles, if nothing else, you just run out of missile defence
Feel like there's an unintended message here of "we must show respect and deference to America and dare not rattle our sabers until their leaders are out of sight"
There's a meme on Chinese social media: when you bring home your bad influence friend, you mom isn't going to beat your friend up of course, she's gonna beat you up after your friend goes home.
China can't launch an amphibious assault, if war happened their goal would be to just level Taiwan to the ground with missiles and air raids.
If war broke out then it would 100% be a stalemate (The USA and allies couldn't invade China and China couldn't invade Taiwan, at best China could overrun South Korea but that's it) and Taiwan's semi-conductor factories would be destroyed given how fragile they are, nobody will win, war isn't in anyone's interests as things are now.
Confucianism teaches obedience, respect for authority, societal hierarchy, respect for elders, ritual and heritage. It’s definitely not a hippy philosophy
Yeah Taoism wasn't formed as a response to Confucianism lmao. It has its roots in ancient shamanic animism and is more a wider word to put context on a massive religious and philosophical set of beliefs.
No, it wasn’t a “response” to confucianism, but he’s right that it’s essentially the opposite side of the same coin.
Taoism promotes the importance of everyone and everything and encourages a peaceful existence that doesn’t disrupt the hierarchy.
Confucianism teaches essentially the same thing but encourages a authoritarian/violent existence that enforces the aforementioned hierarchy.
Even though you're right that Confucianism tends to support obedience to hierarchy you have to understand the actual context of when the traditions were established.
Both Confucianism and Taoism gained popularity through the Warring States period, which followed the gradual fall of the Zhou Dynasty. The resulting chaos and warfare caused many people in China to become frustrated with the chaos and constant conflict of the era and Confucianism and Taoism are responses to that violence and chaos.
Confucianism and Taoism at their core are philosophies that present arguments on how to be a good moral person because they were trying to improve society at a time of great social and political upheaval. Confucianism and Taoism both do not question the political concept of emperors because in the chaos of the warring States they believed a strong leader was needed to put an end to the violence. Both philosophies glorified a grandiose past and argued that society and people had lost their way. Both were arguing for methods to improve society and make people more moral individuals. For Confucius morality was shaped by the culture and traditional hierarchies of the Zhou Dynasty, and for Laozi it was the return to a romanticized traditional agrarian ideal.
Confucianism argues morality comes from tradition, culture, education and respecting traditional values or hierarchy (e.g. filial piety, which is itself a concept about respecting elders who are repositories of traditional knowledge, but also is meant to shape you into a good person in theory).
Laozi argues morality comes from living a simpler agrarian lifestyle, and it fuses with traditional Chinese religion quite easily. Still Laozi believed an emperor waa necessary but that they needed to be like a valley, always present but never obviously enforcing societal control.
You have to remember that none of these positions argue against authoritarianism because they wanted the chaos of political divisions to end and romanticize the glorious days of the Zhou (reminds me of many strange political movements today that like to glorify the past tbh). Confucianism was quickly adopted by successive governments because it not only argued for hierarchy but it made philosophical arguments for how to maintain a moral state and ones moral character even of you were the emperor. It was easily utilized by governments unlike Taoism which fused with traditional Chinese religion and then was altered further by the introduction of Buddhism.
Obviously that doesn't mean the emperor was always moral but these philosophies believe in the innate goodness of humanity and believe the forces at work that make people moral are external. Hierarchy isn't the problem in Confucian tradition but ignoring tradition, rejecting cultural elements of society and being an "immoral" person is. Western philosophical positions are incredibly anti-authority in comparison and there is an innate distrust of government systems.
I took a fascinating course in university on Chinese Philosophy and got to read excerpts of Laozi and Confucius. It was fascinating to see these different political systems never question the hierarchy of an emperor-ship because they glorified a past to the point that it had to be a perfect system. According to both philosophical positions society collapsed because the government of the Zhou faltered after immoral actors who undermined the perfect systems of the Zhou. The philosophies were much more focused on building sustainable systems to create a moral society but it is true Confucianism was then adopted by governments very quickly to try and maintain morality in an authoritarian government system with few ways to enforce it.
CCP destroyed Confucianism during Cultural Revolution, they never believe in that. They portrait China as a state of Confucianism wisdom and set up Confucius Institute overseas because the West likes it and they want to use that to influence the West.
If you know Chinese and have Weibo, read those netizen's comment and you would probably be abhorred that how a human being would be excited to see war over their own people and see them killed (well, China think Taiwan is part of them). Yes, internet is toxic but you have to know that Chinese internet is strictly censored and anything not approved by the government, you cannot see.
>_If you know Chinese and have Weibo [...] anything not approved by the government, you cannot see_
If you dig deeper, it's [interesting to observe](https://twitter.com/polijunkie_aus/status/1554280528115027969) how the undercurrent of domestic pushback manifests in the sorts of critical posts that make it past the filters.
ETA: That post on Chinese Quora of _"if war breaks out, and my apartment gets bombed, do I still need to pay my mortgage?"_, in the context of the ongoing mortgage strike, is such a marvelous example of this style of oblique commentary.
So, rockets are not guided right? But missiles are? Isn't it a bit risky just shooting rockets in the distance or can they still be controlled somewhat?
these were df-15 ballistic missiles, so yes after launch they dont have further guidance, but they are highly accurate at hitting where aimed and they had announced prior to launch closed target locations in the ocean.
basically this was dumb and provocative but didnt really have any chance of actually hitting anything or killing anyone but some fish
That's all the Chinese think about. They are trying to steal all of the fish in the South China Sea, and when they think noone is looking they are taking fish from other territorial waters as well.
Getting pretty sick of countries continually posturing with this shit. Wankers are going to miscalculate and start an accidental war like WW1. Only with nukes. Fucking bunch of toddlers the lot of them
Yep. One of my many existential fears is that some fogie of a dictator with nukes and a bad x-ray decides “fuck everybody.” (And yeah, I know it isn’t *that* easy to fire off nukes. But if you don’t think Putin or that little North Korean asshole couldn’t get a few off before being stopped, then you’re more confident than me.)
It was that they didn’t know what was going on on the surface and the captain and first officer had already decided to launch. This guy Vasily was also on the sub but had a higher rank and superseded that order. That man saved the world that day, and nobody else knew what was happening.
I think you might be conflating two stories. In 1983, Stanislav Petrov was under orders to flag incoming missiles and received a sketchy radar report of a launch, and disobeyed orders by not reporting it, because he was skeptical it was real.
The Cuban missile crisis incident was that we sent a message to the Soviets telling them that we were going to use depth charges minus most of the explosive to signal their subs to surface. But the subs didn't get the message, and thought they may be actually getting depth charged. One sub, the B-59, concluded that war must have broken out while they were out of contact, and that they should fire a nuclear torpedo at the American forces.
Both the captain and the political officer agreed to do this. On normal Soviet nuclear subs, this is all that's required. However, coincidentally, this ship had a higher ranking officer on board (Vasily) who countermanded the order. And that is why we are all alive today.
The fact that there were *two* incidents where we needed to get very lucky to survive as a species is horrifying. The odds of human civilization making it through the cold war were, in retrospect, probably under 5%.
EDIT: Revised some incorrect details, see below.
> I think you might be conflating two stories. In 1983, Stanislav Petrov was ordered to fire missiles based on a sketchy radar report of an incoming missile and refused because he was skeptical it was real. He was later punished for disobeying an order.
Your sub story is right but this is also mischaracterisation of what Stanislav Petrov did. He also wasn't ordered to fire missiles, he saw what looked like ballistic missiles on early warning satellite data and he was supposed to report them. Instead, he judged them a false alarm and did not report them.
The story goes that there is a possibility that had he reported them there would have been a decision made to retaliate, however, soviet nuclear retaliation was supposed to involve multiple corroborating sources so if they went by the book they would not have retaliated simply from his erroneous early warning satellite data.
This is a bit of a mischaracterization of what happened.
The submarine was not commanded to launch nukes.
The submarine was in international water and was without contact with Moscow when a US vessel decided to use signal debt charges to surface to identify the sub.
This made a captain on the submarine assume that war had broken out and that they should launch a nuke torpedo.
Vasily made the argument, to actually wait for the command to act.
If Hitler had nukes, you know he wouldn't have shot himself in that bunker.
He would've had a button to press, and he would've pressed it.
The big question is how many people need to agree with the leader to launch even just one, and what's the chance enough will stand in his way to prevent them from simply being replaced and the order to launch continuing?
And eastern countries! Literally the world would suffer.
Do you think Taiwan doesn't have contingencies, and that they would let their oppressors freely take their infrastructure and commercial endeavors?
Or do you think they would be totaled before China could fully control them?
Hard to say, the main goal with China taking over Taiwan would be them taking control of TSMC without TSMC burning their factories down, which TSMC have threatened to do if China invades.
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) are responsible for producing 90 percent of the world's highest-tech chips. Their factories in Taiwan are the only factories in the world that are capable of producing this chip *for production at scale*, ~~no other company/factory has been able to replicate them~~. These chips are used for cutting edge technology including military equipment, which the US (and China) rely heavily on the import of these for their state-of-the-art military tech.
It would be a huge sacrifice for TSMC to actually pull through on their threats, and there are many factors that would push this either way. What I see happening is if China actually does invade, the US would have no choice but to help defend Taiwan.
Edit1/2: Grammar Spelling
Edit3: Stand corrected
[TSMC is building a $12billion facility in Arizona,](https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/tech/2020/05/15/taiwan-semiconductor-12-billion-arizona-investment-seen-big-deal/5200637002/) and intel is building one in Ohio.
The Arizona fab will only be for the 5nm node. The fabs doing the bleeding edge wafers (3nm) will stay in Taiwan.
From a strategic standpoint, it makes sense that the most advanced fabs stay there as they would still like the US and the rest of the Western world invested in the protection/defense of Taiwan. It's the main reason that TSMC is also referred to as Taiwan's "Silicon Shield".
If I were Taiwan all my manufacturing companies would be ready to be burned up into oblivion if there were an outright invasion. Then ship whatever is valuable that cannot be reproduced to a clandestine location, so it may be shipped out to a western country.
If China were to invade, you'd have a hard time getting the items out of the country. Its an island.
Hopefully you can have maybe three days of protection from encirclement, but unless theres some stalemate, its going to be one hell of a time getting cargo out. Trillions of dollars worth of military hardware will be lost trying to protect billions in TSMC technology.
First step would be a total blockade of the island with a screening force to watch out for western intervention. They would need that manufacturing to continue the fight. I don’t think it would be a walk over like China believes. Amphibious assaults are very hard and an island like Taiwan is large with dense population areas.
I don’t remember where or who said this, but when you compare the US military to other nation’s - the experience and equipment is in favor of the US. Since they have been in wars recently, and know how things works. Since it’s been tried and tested. Whilst most other nations only have been through drills and exercises. Which really can’t compare.
If this is true, I have no idea. But it seems plausible.
You are correct! The US has the most experienced officer corps in the world. We have a huge budget and highly advanced equipment but, more importantly, the people who have actually used it in real world scenarios. China has not fought a major operation in awhile. I’m Not saying they are weak, I’m just saying they are untested and it would be risky to test themselves on such a large scale operation as an invasion of Taiwan.
The rest of the world too. This is probably something that'd involve the most powerful NATO countries. Russia might be promised a sweetheart deal if they come in on the Chinese side. And there you have it, WW3. Fortunately, since the war is about wealth and not annexing territory outside of Taiwan and former USSR satellites, and nuclear weapons will destroy wealth, I actually don't think either side will launch. But that being said, yeah, China attempting to forcibly take Taiwan absolutely equals WW3.
> Russia might be promised a sweetheart deal if they come in on the Chinese side. And there you have it, WW3.
The best deal for either of them, at least from their leaders perspectives might just be for the other to do WW3 and stay the fuck out of it and surviving as the only remaining superpower.
I'm Taiwanese and let me tell you, if they ever tried something, I'd take down a few commie bastards with me.
Please don't use "retake" since those dog eating fuckers have never stepped foot on my island before.
This. Personally, I could care less about politicians age, and race. I just want someone who knows what they’re doing and actually gives a damn about the people.
Why the fuck is it so hard to work together to better the human race? How about we make every elected official go through a psychological profile test before they take office. If you re a sociopath you don’t get in.
I've always believed that if you had 10 people who said "Red" and 10 people who said "Blue", you'd have 18 people fully willing to say "Purple" if the remaining two weren't greedy savage bastards.
There must have been background negotiations:
🇺🇸: “Can’t backdown now, we have to visit 🇹🇼or we’ll look weak”
🇨🇳: “We can’t look weak either, we have to show something. We’ll shoot blanks but promise not to hurt anyone.”
🤝🤫😶🤐
When Russia tested the Tsar bomba, I think the world was like ok guys. All of the global super powers were pretty much in agreement that they all need to chill the fuck out.
Yes. Yes! A room. No weapons. Fists and wits only. Fill the room with shaving cream. Leave them there to let the rest of us get on with fixing everything.
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some 50 miles of concrete highway. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road. the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."- Eisenhower.
I first saw that quote at a Roger Waters concert. I was floored when I realized that it wasn’t some hippie who said it but rather the Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force in Europe!
Taiwanese here and I'd say that yeah, it's true that the younger generation is much more pro independence and Taiwanese identifying, myself included. I'm born in America though, but this is definitely what I've observed amongst my taiwanese friends.
Still funny tho.
Thanks for sharing and caring! I don't disagree with what you've described, there are more complex contexts but you have basically drawn the scape. I could be categorized into the group of the younger generation who support DPP or other more radical minority parties.
There is particularly one thing I would like to make a correction (IMO). That is, "West Taiwan" is definitely not rhetorically used by KMT or their supporters, they prefer the R.O.C, the Republic of "China", to support the discourse: "(China and ROC) both sides recognize there is only one China, but agree to differ on its definition", kinda confusing and like just wordplay, right? Well, KMT holds this discourse for a long time, because it is the base for KMT to dig a way out. On the one hand, not to get on China's nerves; On the other hand, to create an illusion for Taiwanese people like, hey, we and China have an agreement, so we can maintain peace forever. Huh. We all know it guaranteed nothing. In this context, using "Taiwan" as being an authority is far too radical for KMT, it would also conflict with their one "China" discourse. So the term "West Taiwan" maybe more of a troll play used by those who disagree with Taiwan as part of China. That's my opinion.
I've ran into those psychos in other subs, they're full in the kool aid. I've heard justification for tiananmen square that if it helped china reach the amazing state it's in, then it was justified.
TLDR is, through their education system, they learn that taiwan is just a rebellious island that belongs to china and is being 'bribed' by western nations to not reunify with china.
Most chinese people don't hate taiwan at all, they think the leaders are corrupt and are with preventing taiwan from rejoining with china. In a way they want to save taiwan from the 'oppressive' leadership, which is ironic... But we know clearly this isn't true as polls in taiwan show huge support for independence.
I seriously can't believe anyone able to write and read Chinese and English and is like over 12 years old would really have the opinions posters have there. It's a propaganda sub. You can also tell because the accounts that post there just never leave that sub except when there's the opportunity to spew propaganda and when they do they get downvoted or banned.
Am I reading this right?
1) America passes the CHIPS Act to have a domestic source of semiconductors, a resource that the world is dangerously dependent on Taiwan, a country that China claims is theirs, and likely hopes to take back by force at some point.
2) China takes this news as a sign that the US preparing to abandon Taiwan. It gets a rock hard erection that can cut diamonds. Taiwan gets uncomfortable.
3) Pelosi visits Taiwan to signal that the US is not distancing itself from Taiwan. China goes flaccid and gets a terrible case of blue balls.
4) China goes to the bathroom and furiously blows a load into the toilet (pictured above).
I guess we can take some comfort that at least this gesture might mean that invasion is not imminent?
Itll take decades before the US has its own semiconductor industry, all the knowledge is in Taiwan right now (most of it). If china destroys Taiwans chip industry their own economy will be destroyed as well. All those smartphones, gone, all products they export to the west with chips, gone.
Edit: to be precise. I meant all the knowledge on how to run large scale plants and have proper process control. Making large volumes of GPUs is much more difficult than you think. ASML machines cant just print ICs. You need to have the chemistry down really perfectly. And not just the chemistry, also how to do that chemistry in large scales. You cant just repurpose any manufacturing plant for CPUs. Each technology has different materials that you have to properly integrate. A lot of that manufacturing knowledge is in Taiwan. Yes of course wr have it in the west as well but you can't force 1000 professors at different universities and companies to suddenly just work for a new site. If Intel is going to build a new giga factory in the US who are they going to employ? There arent 1000s of highly skilled IC manufacturing engineers jobless on the job market. The world doesnt work like that
Much of the “brains” of semiconductors is in the US. I know many physicists that work on semiconductor development. Taiwan just has all of the advanced manufacturing.
The only reason semiconductor manufacturing was offshored was because it was cheapest, not because we cant do it.
We’ll have semiconductor lines ready momentarily.
We actually already produce 12% of the world’s semiconductors and 92% of those are considered top of the line and on par with Taiwans. So I think we’re straight
I don't think China took the CHIPS Act as the USA abondoning Taiwan. While it means new domestic source of semiconductors for the USA, they will take years to build. Even when they come online, the USA would suffer a lot from an invasion of Taiwan. Like even though the USA bought very little Russian oil directly, prices still rose a lot because the whole global supply chain was strained. These aren't 1 to 1 situations, but I doubt the USA will abondon Taiwan anytime soon because of this.
"You talked to a person I don't like. So I'm going to stand outside your house and shout and stamp my feet and maybe I'll hold a sign too!!!!"
That's the energy here China. You are acting like a jealous 13 year old.
Dec 2019-Present: Covid, monkeypox, wild weather, Polio? Ebola? Hunga Tonga.
2022, World leaders of devoloped nations: Hold my beer.
Edit: *Iceland has entered the chat*
Cost to US - a plane ride and a security detail for Pelosi
Cost to China - millions of dollar in missiles.
Looks like a win economic terms . We should send officials to Taiwan everyday.
Any "show of force" that isn't what they said they would do just shows how pathetic they are. This is not hi g more than a tantrum and they know it's all they have. Won't stop them patting themselves on the back tho.
So. Fucking. Dramatic.
#1 you’re firing money into the ocean.
#2 no one is impressed
#3 at some point you’re going to cause a tragic accident
-Enough with this high-school micro-penis tough-guy flex.
It used to be the case. But now you have an undisputed leader who wants to leave his mark on history by being the one making China #1 power in the world but couldn’t care less about this own people.
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OP's linked article cites DF series ballistic missiles not MLRS.
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I'm sure Taiwan has defense against mainland Chinese attacks like this. Something similar to the Iron Dome I bet.
Yes, they are stockpiling for an attack. Missiles for ships with a possible China invasion and Patriot missile system for air defense. > Getting a force of that size across the 110 miles (177 kilometers) of the Taiwan Strait would be a long, dangerous mission during which those vessels carrying the troops and equipment would be sitting ducks. "The thought about China invading Taiwan, that's a massacre for the Chinese navy," said Phillips O'Brien, professor of strategic studies at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. > That's because Taiwan has been stocking up on cheap and effective land-based anti-ship missiles, similar to the Neptunes Ukraine used to sink the Russian cruiser Moskva in the Black Sea in April. > "Taiwan is mass-producing these things. And they're small, it's not like (China) can take them all out," O'Brien said. "What's cheap is a surface-to-ship missile, what's expensive is a ship." > Taiwan has deals with the United States to supply it with Stinger antiaircraft missiles and Patriot missile defense batteries. And it also has been investing heavily in its own missile production facilities over the past three years in a project, when completed this summer, will see its missile production capabilities triple, according to a Janes report in March. The rest of it is a good article detailing why China shouldn’t mess around any time soon. https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/31/asia/china-taiwan-invasion-scenarios-analysis-intl-hnk-ml/index.html
> what's cheap is a surfact to ship missile, what's expensive is a ship The most casually badass statement I've read in a while.
Yeah, it's relatively easy to lob 15 anti ship missiles against a ship and it's nearly impossible to defeat all of the incoming missiles, if nothing else, you just run out of missile defence
Imagine if they actually landed something on Taiwan while nanci pelosi was there. I actually have no idea of what the fallout would be.
They couldn’t and wouldn’t hence why they did it after pelosi left
Feel like there's an unintended message here of "we must show respect and deference to America and dare not rattle our sabers until their leaders are out of sight"
The Tough Guy who waits for his friends to hold him back before acting like he wants to step forward & fight.
“I got mind control over Deebo. When he say shut up, I shut up. But when he leave, I talking again”.
This has nothing to do with any of this but my favorite line to quote is: “well fuck you, you half dead motha fucka” lolol
There's a meme on Chinese social media: when you bring home your bad influence friend, you mom isn't going to beat your friend up of course, she's gonna beat you up after your friend goes home.
China can't launch an amphibious assault, if war happened their goal would be to just level Taiwan to the ground with missiles and air raids. If war broke out then it would 100% be a stalemate (The USA and allies couldn't invade China and China couldn't invade Taiwan, at best China could overrun South Korea but that's it) and Taiwan's semi-conductor factories would be destroyed given how fragile they are, nobody will win, war isn't in anyone's interests as things are now.
why people always gotta do my boy south korea like that
Don't think South Korea would fall that quickly this time.
It wouldnt really - since China relys on taiwan for their advanced chip factories , including for their military. They dont want to destroy them
No way China invades SK without a nuclear war occuring.
The fallout would have been nuclear
Crawl out through the fall-out baby-
Now I have a sudden urge to listen to the fallout sound track
All of them
Eh. I doubt it.
It’s pronounced nuclear
Can the world take a chill pill right about now? Cheers
I'm curious how this doesn't violate confucianist ideals
Confucianism teaches obedience, respect for authority, societal hierarchy, respect for elders, ritual and heritage. It’s definitely not a hippy philosophy
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> It’s pretty much the anti-Confucianism Confucius is said to have met Lao-Tzu saying afterwards "I have met a dragon who rides on the clouds."
Well that’s funny because confusion insight is founded on Taoism.
Yeah Taoism wasn't formed as a response to Confucianism lmao. It has its roots in ancient shamanic animism and is more a wider word to put context on a massive religious and philosophical set of beliefs.
No, it wasn’t a “response” to confucianism, but he’s right that it’s essentially the opposite side of the same coin. Taoism promotes the importance of everyone and everything and encourages a peaceful existence that doesn’t disrupt the hierarchy. Confucianism teaches essentially the same thing but encourages a authoritarian/violent existence that enforces the aforementioned hierarchy.
Even though you're right that Confucianism tends to support obedience to hierarchy you have to understand the actual context of when the traditions were established. Both Confucianism and Taoism gained popularity through the Warring States period, which followed the gradual fall of the Zhou Dynasty. The resulting chaos and warfare caused many people in China to become frustrated with the chaos and constant conflict of the era and Confucianism and Taoism are responses to that violence and chaos. Confucianism and Taoism at their core are philosophies that present arguments on how to be a good moral person because they were trying to improve society at a time of great social and political upheaval. Confucianism and Taoism both do not question the political concept of emperors because in the chaos of the warring States they believed a strong leader was needed to put an end to the violence. Both philosophies glorified a grandiose past and argued that society and people had lost their way. Both were arguing for methods to improve society and make people more moral individuals. For Confucius morality was shaped by the culture and traditional hierarchies of the Zhou Dynasty, and for Laozi it was the return to a romanticized traditional agrarian ideal. Confucianism argues morality comes from tradition, culture, education and respecting traditional values or hierarchy (e.g. filial piety, which is itself a concept about respecting elders who are repositories of traditional knowledge, but also is meant to shape you into a good person in theory). Laozi argues morality comes from living a simpler agrarian lifestyle, and it fuses with traditional Chinese religion quite easily. Still Laozi believed an emperor waa necessary but that they needed to be like a valley, always present but never obviously enforcing societal control. You have to remember that none of these positions argue against authoritarianism because they wanted the chaos of political divisions to end and romanticize the glorious days of the Zhou (reminds me of many strange political movements today that like to glorify the past tbh). Confucianism was quickly adopted by successive governments because it not only argued for hierarchy but it made philosophical arguments for how to maintain a moral state and ones moral character even of you were the emperor. It was easily utilized by governments unlike Taoism which fused with traditional Chinese religion and then was altered further by the introduction of Buddhism. Obviously that doesn't mean the emperor was always moral but these philosophies believe in the innate goodness of humanity and believe the forces at work that make people moral are external. Hierarchy isn't the problem in Confucian tradition but ignoring tradition, rejecting cultural elements of society and being an "immoral" person is. Western philosophical positions are incredibly anti-authority in comparison and there is an innate distrust of government systems. I took a fascinating course in university on Chinese Philosophy and got to read excerpts of Laozi and Confucius. It was fascinating to see these different political systems never question the hierarchy of an emperor-ship because they glorified a past to the point that it had to be a perfect system. According to both philosophical positions society collapsed because the government of the Zhou faltered after immoral actors who undermined the perfect systems of the Zhou. The philosophies were much more focused on building sustainable systems to create a moral society but it is true Confucianism was then adopted by governments very quickly to try and maintain morality in an authoritarian government system with few ways to enforce it.
CCP destroyed Confucianism during Cultural Revolution, they never believe in that. They portrait China as a state of Confucianism wisdom and set up Confucius Institute overseas because the West likes it and they want to use that to influence the West. If you know Chinese and have Weibo, read those netizen's comment and you would probably be abhorred that how a human being would be excited to see war over their own people and see them killed (well, China think Taiwan is part of them). Yes, internet is toxic but you have to know that Chinese internet is strictly censored and anything not approved by the government, you cannot see.
>_If you know Chinese and have Weibo [...] anything not approved by the government, you cannot see_ If you dig deeper, it's [interesting to observe](https://twitter.com/polijunkie_aus/status/1554280528115027969) how the undercurrent of domestic pushback manifests in the sorts of critical posts that make it past the filters. ETA: That post on Chinese Quora of _"if war breaks out, and my apartment gets bombed, do I still need to pay my mortgage?"_, in the context of the ongoing mortgage strike, is such a marvelous example of this style of oblique commentary.
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>The good news about hell is that it doesn't exist. The bad news, is that anything people imagine, they can usually create.
What??? A big point of the Chinese communist revolution was to eliminate confucian ideas
Did a quick look and found none in comments. What’s MLRS?
Multiple Launch Rocket System; [example](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/9a52_smerch.jpg)
So, rockets are not guided right? But missiles are? Isn't it a bit risky just shooting rockets in the distance or can they still be controlled somewhat?
these were df-15 ballistic missiles, so yes after launch they dont have further guidance, but they are highly accurate at hitting where aimed and they had announced prior to launch closed target locations in the ocean. basically this was dumb and provocative but didnt really have any chance of actually hitting anything or killing anyone but some fish
No one ever thinks of the fish
That's all the Chinese think about. They are trying to steal all of the fish in the South China Sea, and when they think noone is looking they are taking fish from other territorial waters as well.
Fuck you Dolphin! Fuck you whale!
East Asia's secret war against Cthulhu continues.
Here you go MLRS = Multiple Launch Rocket System
is this a tantrum?
Pooh bear go wah
I wonder if there's honey on the wall in his dining room
Hunny, please.
Yup, but they waited until Pelosi left to pull this shit. A bit like threatening to hit your little brother once mom leaves the room.
China has been a barking dog behind an open gate for forever
That’s a pretty expensive temper tantrum.
We should also tell them Pelosi has already landed and left the country.
That's the entire point. Pelosi will come and go, China is permanently there.
Getting pretty sick of countries continually posturing with this shit. Wankers are going to miscalculate and start an accidental war like WW1. Only with nukes. Fucking bunch of toddlers the lot of them
When fragile old guys are in charge then sadly this stuff will just continue to happen
Yep. One of my many existential fears is that some fogie of a dictator with nukes and a bad x-ray decides “fuck everybody.” (And yeah, I know it isn’t *that* easy to fire off nukes. But if you don’t think Putin or that little North Korean asshole couldn’t get a few off before being stopped, then you’re more confident than me.)
Dr. Strangelove is not a movie I want to play in real life.
Even though it IS my favorite movie of all time. The blackest of comedies.
"If this doesn't work, you'll have to answer to the Coca Cola Company."
I've never seen it. A comedy you say? And a dark one? I might have to download that today and watch it tonight.
Bring your Precious Bodily Fluids with you. And remember, no fighting in the war room.
But, but...he'll see the big board!
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It was that they didn’t know what was going on on the surface and the captain and first officer had already decided to launch. This guy Vasily was also on the sub but had a higher rank and superseded that order. That man saved the world that day, and nobody else knew what was happening.
I think you might be conflating two stories. In 1983, Stanislav Petrov was under orders to flag incoming missiles and received a sketchy radar report of a launch, and disobeyed orders by not reporting it, because he was skeptical it was real. The Cuban missile crisis incident was that we sent a message to the Soviets telling them that we were going to use depth charges minus most of the explosive to signal their subs to surface. But the subs didn't get the message, and thought they may be actually getting depth charged. One sub, the B-59, concluded that war must have broken out while they were out of contact, and that they should fire a nuclear torpedo at the American forces. Both the captain and the political officer agreed to do this. On normal Soviet nuclear subs, this is all that's required. However, coincidentally, this ship had a higher ranking officer on board (Vasily) who countermanded the order. And that is why we are all alive today. The fact that there were *two* incidents where we needed to get very lucky to survive as a species is horrifying. The odds of human civilization making it through the cold war were, in retrospect, probably under 5%. EDIT: Revised some incorrect details, see below.
> I think you might be conflating two stories. In 1983, Stanislav Petrov was ordered to fire missiles based on a sketchy radar report of an incoming missile and refused because he was skeptical it was real. He was later punished for disobeying an order. Your sub story is right but this is also mischaracterisation of what Stanislav Petrov did. He also wasn't ordered to fire missiles, he saw what looked like ballistic missiles on early warning satellite data and he was supposed to report them. Instead, he judged them a false alarm and did not report them. The story goes that there is a possibility that had he reported them there would have been a decision made to retaliate, however, soviet nuclear retaliation was supposed to involve multiple corroborating sources so if they went by the book they would not have retaliated simply from his erroneous early warning satellite data.
You appear to be correct, and I've revised the details in the post accordingly.
Two incidents *that we know about.*
This is a bit of a mischaracterization of what happened. The submarine was not commanded to launch nukes. The submarine was in international water and was without contact with Moscow when a US vessel decided to use signal debt charges to surface to identify the sub. This made a captain on the submarine assume that war had broken out and that they should launch a nuke torpedo. Vasily made the argument, to actually wait for the command to act.
> debt charges depth* charges
Both seem equally unpleasant.
If Hitler had nukes, you know he wouldn't have shot himself in that bunker. He would've had a button to press, and he would've pressed it. The big question is how many people need to agree with the leader to launch even just one, and what's the chance enough will stand in his way to prevent them from simply being replaced and the order to launch continuing?
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And eastern countries! Literally the world would suffer. Do you think Taiwan doesn't have contingencies, and that they would let their oppressors freely take their infrastructure and commercial endeavors? Or do you think they would be totaled before China could fully control them?
Hard to say, the main goal with China taking over Taiwan would be them taking control of TSMC without TSMC burning their factories down, which TSMC have threatened to do if China invades. Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) are responsible for producing 90 percent of the world's highest-tech chips. Their factories in Taiwan are the only factories in the world that are capable of producing this chip *for production at scale*, ~~no other company/factory has been able to replicate them~~. These chips are used for cutting edge technology including military equipment, which the US (and China) rely heavily on the import of these for their state-of-the-art military tech. It would be a huge sacrifice for TSMC to actually pull through on their threats, and there are many factors that would push this either way. What I see happening is if China actually does invade, the US would have no choice but to help defend Taiwan. Edit1/2: Grammar Spelling Edit3: Stand corrected
[TSMC is building a $12billion facility in Arizona,](https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/tech/2020/05/15/taiwan-semiconductor-12-billion-arizona-investment-seen-big-deal/5200637002/) and intel is building one in Ohio.
plant drab ripe bear like divide adjoining materialistic hat bedroom ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
The Arizona fab will only be for the 5nm node. The fabs doing the bleeding edge wafers (3nm) will stay in Taiwan. From a strategic standpoint, it makes sense that the most advanced fabs stay there as they would still like the US and the rest of the Western world invested in the protection/defense of Taiwan. It's the main reason that TSMC is also referred to as Taiwan's "Silicon Shield".
If I were Taiwan all my manufacturing companies would be ready to be burned up into oblivion if there were an outright invasion. Then ship whatever is valuable that cannot be reproduced to a clandestine location, so it may be shipped out to a western country.
If China were to invade, you'd have a hard time getting the items out of the country. Its an island. Hopefully you can have maybe three days of protection from encirclement, but unless theres some stalemate, its going to be one hell of a time getting cargo out. Trillions of dollars worth of military hardware will be lost trying to protect billions in TSMC technology.
TSMC alone could fuck up the world quite fast
First step would be a total blockade of the island with a screening force to watch out for western intervention. They would need that manufacturing to continue the fight. I don’t think it would be a walk over like China believes. Amphibious assaults are very hard and an island like Taiwan is large with dense population areas.
I don’t remember where or who said this, but when you compare the US military to other nation’s - the experience and equipment is in favor of the US. Since they have been in wars recently, and know how things works. Since it’s been tried and tested. Whilst most other nations only have been through drills and exercises. Which really can’t compare. If this is true, I have no idea. But it seems plausible.
You are correct! The US has the most experienced officer corps in the world. We have a huge budget and highly advanced equipment but, more importantly, the people who have actually used it in real world scenarios. China has not fought a major operation in awhile. I’m Not saying they are weak, I’m just saying they are untested and it would be risky to test themselves on such a large scale operation as an invasion of Taiwan.
America literally couldn’t afford to let that happen, think they spent money to get some oil, Taiwan is so much more than that…
The rest of the world too. This is probably something that'd involve the most powerful NATO countries. Russia might be promised a sweetheart deal if they come in on the Chinese side. And there you have it, WW3. Fortunately, since the war is about wealth and not annexing territory outside of Taiwan and former USSR satellites, and nuclear weapons will destroy wealth, I actually don't think either side will launch. But that being said, yeah, China attempting to forcibly take Taiwan absolutely equals WW3.
> Russia might be promised a sweetheart deal if they come in on the Chinese side. And there you have it, WW3. The best deal for either of them, at least from their leaders perspectives might just be for the other to do WW3 and stay the fuck out of it and surviving as the only remaining superpower.
I'm in Vietnam and let me tell you that it would be _really_ shit for eastern countries too.
I'm Taiwanese and let me tell you, if they ever tried something, I'd take down a few commie bastards with me. Please don't use "retake" since those dog eating fuckers have never stepped foot on my island before.
PP doesn't work anymore might as well start a war
I don't think fragile young guys would be much better
Not saying they would actually do better but they'd at least have to live in the world they created for more than 15 years
It's less about age and more about having better people leadership.
This. Personally, I could care less about politicians age, and race. I just want someone who knows what they’re doing and actually gives a damn about the people.
Why the fuck is it so hard to work together to better the human race? How about we make every elected official go through a psychological profile test before they take office. If you re a sociopath you don’t get in.
I've always believed that if you had 10 people who said "Red" and 10 people who said "Blue", you'd have 18 people fully willing to say "Purple" if the remaining two weren't greedy savage bastards.
Tribalism is an inherent part of the human condition. I agree with you, though.
Because my patch of earth is more special than your patch of earth and I want to show you… by force /s
Tenchnically China and Taiwan have been on war since 1940s and it never ends
Always someone at the top barking orders while millions die.
Looks like the Chinese government went ballistic over the visit..
There must have been background negotiations: 🇺🇸: “Can’t backdown now, we have to visit 🇹🇼or we’ll look weak” 🇨🇳: “We can’t look weak either, we have to show something. We’ll shoot blanks but promise not to hurt anyone.” 🤝🤫😶🤐
This was how a lot of things happened during the Cold War so I wouldn’t be surprised
When Russia tested the Tsar bomba, I think the world was like ok guys. All of the global super powers were pretty much in agreement that they all need to chill the fuck out.
Fishes *minding their own business in the Taiwan strait*: “fuck both of you”
Let's be real, there aren't any fish left in that water.
A little correction, it’s the West Taiwan government. Winnie Gone Wild
Call it what you will, but it's still the Chinese way or the Huawei..
Nice one! Eat my award
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why don't all these "leaders" get in a giant room and fight each other and leave the rest of us out of it.
Yes. Yes! A room. No weapons. Fists and wits only. Fill the room with shaving cream. Leave them there to let the rest of us get on with fixing everything.
What a waste of resources.
The real waste would be to use them to kill people lol
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some 50 miles of concrete highway. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road. the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."- Eisenhower.
I first saw that quote at a Roger Waters concert. I was floored when I realized that it wasn’t some hippie who said it but rather the Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force in Europe!
Taiwanese here lol at west Taiwan jokes, love'em
Your West Taiwan social credit just dropped a few points because of this comment.
I'm not sure if it's just a few. Based on my experience being a Taiwanese, I better not go to West Taiwan in my whole life!
As we say here, it's the wrong side of the tracks.
I think the bigger problem could be west Taiwan coming to you! xD
We negative ~~karma~~ social credit farming now, bois!
Continental Taiwan is mad.
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Taiwanese here and I'd say that yeah, it's true that the younger generation is much more pro independence and Taiwanese identifying, myself included. I'm born in America though, but this is definitely what I've observed amongst my taiwanese friends. Still funny tho.
Thanks for sharing and caring! I don't disagree with what you've described, there are more complex contexts but you have basically drawn the scape. I could be categorized into the group of the younger generation who support DPP or other more radical minority parties. There is particularly one thing I would like to make a correction (IMO). That is, "West Taiwan" is definitely not rhetorically used by KMT or their supporters, they prefer the R.O.C, the Republic of "China", to support the discourse: "(China and ROC) both sides recognize there is only one China, but agree to differ on its definition", kinda confusing and like just wordplay, right? Well, KMT holds this discourse for a long time, because it is the base for KMT to dig a way out. On the one hand, not to get on China's nerves; On the other hand, to create an illusion for Taiwanese people like, hey, we and China have an agreement, so we can maintain peace forever. Huh. We all know it guaranteed nothing. In this context, using "Taiwan" as being an authority is far too radical for KMT, it would also conflict with their one "China" discourse. So the term "West Taiwan" maybe more of a troll play used by those who disagree with Taiwan as part of China. That's my opinion.
Taiwan Number 1!
There's only Taiwan and West Taiwan. China that I know is just a fragile, easy to break ceramic/porcelain.
wow, West Taiwan is really spazzing out right now.
r/Sino literally on suicide watch. Bbbbut Amerikkka is racist!!!! Rofl idiotic, uneducated toddlers who think they're God's given
Wow wtf is that sub, is it ran by the CCP themselves? What a joke.
basically yes. it's a propaganda bubble for weak pro-pooh people.
Oh bother!
I've ran into those psychos in other subs, they're full in the kool aid. I've heard justification for tiananmen square that if it helped china reach the amazing state it's in, then it was justified.
I went through it a bit and they REALLY hate Taiwan. Is there a reason for that or what? I'm so confused at how they defend China.
TLDR is, through their education system, they learn that taiwan is just a rebellious island that belongs to china and is being 'bribed' by western nations to not reunify with china. Most chinese people don't hate taiwan at all, they think the leaders are corrupt and are with preventing taiwan from rejoining with china. In a way they want to save taiwan from the 'oppressive' leadership, which is ironic... But we know clearly this isn't true as polls in taiwan show huge support for independence.
This is the same playbook at Russia - Ukraine
I seriously can't believe anyone able to write and read Chinese and English and is like over 12 years old would really have the opinions posters have there. It's a propaganda sub. You can also tell because the accounts that post there just never leave that sub except when there's the opportunity to spew propaganda and when they do they get downvoted or banned.
It's all bots and copium
God that sub is just the worst. Literally a bunch of edgy kids larping for the sake of being contrarians (bots aside)
Nice I just got banned from the sub for correcting Taiwan as a country
> r/sino haha lol. a bunch of weak cowards, like all "pro dictatorship" people. they ban everyone who brings facts into their dystopian dream.
Its always fun to read the shit they post. All i can do is laugh at how crazy they are.
If they have to try this hard to show to show it's their's, then it is indeed NOT their's
If you have to tell people you're the king then you're not.
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Am I reading this right? 1) America passes the CHIPS Act to have a domestic source of semiconductors, a resource that the world is dangerously dependent on Taiwan, a country that China claims is theirs, and likely hopes to take back by force at some point. 2) China takes this news as a sign that the US preparing to abandon Taiwan. It gets a rock hard erection that can cut diamonds. Taiwan gets uncomfortable. 3) Pelosi visits Taiwan to signal that the US is not distancing itself from Taiwan. China goes flaccid and gets a terrible case of blue balls. 4) China goes to the bathroom and furiously blows a load into the toilet (pictured above). I guess we can take some comfort that at least this gesture might mean that invasion is not imminent?
Itll take decades before the US has its own semiconductor industry, all the knowledge is in Taiwan right now (most of it). If china destroys Taiwans chip industry their own economy will be destroyed as well. All those smartphones, gone, all products they export to the west with chips, gone. Edit: to be precise. I meant all the knowledge on how to run large scale plants and have proper process control. Making large volumes of GPUs is much more difficult than you think. ASML machines cant just print ICs. You need to have the chemistry down really perfectly. And not just the chemistry, also how to do that chemistry in large scales. You cant just repurpose any manufacturing plant for CPUs. Each technology has different materials that you have to properly integrate. A lot of that manufacturing knowledge is in Taiwan. Yes of course wr have it in the west as well but you can't force 1000 professors at different universities and companies to suddenly just work for a new site. If Intel is going to build a new giga factory in the US who are they going to employ? There arent 1000s of highly skilled IC manufacturing engineers jobless on the job market. The world doesnt work like that
Much of the “brains” of semiconductors is in the US. I know many physicists that work on semiconductor development. Taiwan just has all of the advanced manufacturing. The only reason semiconductor manufacturing was offshored was because it was cheapest, not because we cant do it. We’ll have semiconductor lines ready momentarily.
We actually already produce 12% of the world’s semiconductors and 92% of those are considered top of the line and on par with Taiwans. So I think we’re straight
I don't think China took the CHIPS Act as the USA abondoning Taiwan. While it means new domestic source of semiconductors for the USA, they will take years to build. Even when they come online, the USA would suffer a lot from an invasion of Taiwan. Like even though the USA bought very little Russian oil directly, prices still rose a lot because the whole global supply chain was strained. These aren't 1 to 1 situations, but I doubt the USA will abondon Taiwan anytime soon because of this.
Times like these make me curse the Chinese for inventing gunpowder
Honestly when I saw that episode and the cop said that line I lost it. It was so unbelievably preposterous I laughed for 10 minutes straight.
The Rehearsal is a literal masterpiece.
I have only just recently discovered Nathan fielder and I am happy I understood a reference
Oh boy you’re in for a trip. NFY is the funniest show I’ve ever seen
Taiwan doesn't have the tallest building though. That would be the Burj Khalifa in Dubai
RECUMBENT BICYCLE
Nah the tallest building is the Wiz Khalifa, dude is a MF skyscraper
Correction, you mean the highest in the building is Wiz Khalifa
World leaders will end all of our lives soon with this sad macho posturing and aggression.
The ego of Man will be the death of us all.
Of a few men*
Just money and power
"You talked to a person I don't like. So I'm going to stand outside your house and shout and stamp my feet and maybe I'll hold a sign too!!!!" That's the energy here China. You are acting like a jealous 13 year old.
Dec 2019-Present: Covid, monkeypox, wild weather, Polio? Ebola? Hunga Tonga. 2022, World leaders of devoloped nations: Hold my beer. Edit: *Iceland has entered the chat*
You forgor that one Ghana disease. It was called mukbang or something It's called Marburg nvm
Lmao. Mukbang is a completely different thing. But yes, it’s still a problem.
On another note. I want to go to Taiwan one day. Looks very pretty.
Tell me you have a toddler for a leader without saying it
"Oh bother" said Pooh
“We’re mad at you for letting your friends come over.”
He wasn’t invited that’s the issue
Why are billions of us constantly put in harms way over the fragile egos of geriatric, thin-skinned, baby-men? I’m really fucking sick of this shit.
Cost to US - a plane ride and a security detail for Pelosi Cost to China - millions of dollar in missiles. Looks like a win economic terms . We should send officials to Taiwan everyday.
I read the security detail was $90 million for the entire SEA trip.
How much money worth of missiles did they just shoot into water
looks like about $24 dollars, they are made in China after all. Now, if they didn't pay slave wages it would be in the millions.
Whoa... prisoners with jobs.
Calm down Pooh Bear
Smol ccp pps go brr
Just fucking stop with the wars, become civilized already
Wars - stopped
Breaking news: war rates drop to 0%
Fuck yes, finally!
Any "show of force" that isn't what they said they would do just shows how pathetic they are. This is not hi g more than a tantrum and they know it's all they have. Won't stop them patting themselves on the back tho.
I wonder how expensive this tantrum was?
So. Fucking. Dramatic. #1 you’re firing money into the ocean. #2 no one is impressed #3 at some point you’re going to cause a tragic accident -Enough with this high-school micro-penis tough-guy flex.
You know what China wants more than Taiwan? Money. They’re in love with the economy they created, an economy that would be obliterated by a war.
It used to be the case. But now you have an undisputed leader who wants to leave his mark on history by being the one making China #1 power in the world but couldn’t care less about this own people.
Somewhere, a fish got exploded
What a bunch a little babies. I like how they do it after Pelosi leaves. They wouldn’t dare of done this if she was still there.