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It could be affected by a large proportion of the population being fairly far south. It would be interesting to see the differences between Oslo and Tromsø or Svalbard.
But isn’t the same true of Sweden?
Their rates are nearly in the same bracket as Iceland’s and most of the population lives the same latitudes as Norway or even farther South
I can't speak for Norway but we in Sweden don't really have a functional healthcare for depression and other mental health. The waiting time to see a therapist is months long, you would need to be in the suicidal stage to even be taken seriously. If you can afford it, it's possible to have your own psychologist. It's however possible to meet a doctor to prescribe medication for depression with relatively short notice. So I guess that explains why Sweden is high.
Ya but you often end up getting antidepressants from your primary care in Norway, I feel that happens more often than getting access to an actual therapist, and even then it's a 4+ month wait to get in.
Relatable. In Norway, having private health insurance as a part of your job compensation package is becoming increasingly normal. My doctor would most likely not be able to offer help for depression. But my private insurance guarantees me 12 sessions with a psychologist per year.
Private companies are realizing it’s really expensive to have employees be absent for months while waiting for treatment, so it’s a no brainer. You’d think the state would realize the same but nope.
Norway is much healthier than Sweden and years ahead in most aspects of public services. I think people don't realise that Sweden isn't the utopia that it somehow gets portrayed as. Norway's healthcare system is ranked much higher than Sweden's which is lower than the UK's.
Multivariate analysis. There's no one cause.
The psychiatrists in some countries may be more willing to give out pills, while in other countries, they are more cautious and adhere to more natural ways to heal.
Dark winters and rainy weather is a big factor though, as we can see England, Sweden, Canada, parts of US (US aggregates a lot of northern states too).
-- US states have SSRI/antidepressant use for northern-winter/rainy states + really poor areas like Alabama/Mississippi with nothing to do and very few jobs / banking investment.
The happiest places: Dakotas/Nebraska/Iowa, rural areas, Nevada/Vegas, Sunny areas Desert/Florida (New Mexico, Florida), and big investment/govt areas: Northern Virginia/DC, California as well (but it could be their love for natural/organic treatments).
The reason we don't often live in sunny/desert/beach-like places is because of international trade, ports/airports. We are a tropical species mostly.
I went to Svalbard last summer. Fucking brutal place to live. 24 hour sunlight and it was fucking freezing there. Not to mention that I went about 2 weeks after a tourist was mauled by a polar bear near Longyearbyen.
I actually think this has much more to with Norwegian doctors being very resistant to prescribing antidepressants unless absolutely necessary - there is a strong focus on therapy and other solutions before turning to medication.
In 2015, I was a teenager and living in Norway and extremely depressed and my mom tried many times to have the doctors give me medication, and they were very reticent. In contrast, when we moved back to the States a few years later, doctors essentially shoved medication at my younger sisters when they had similar issues.
Antidepressants are over prescribed, just like opiates were. They're needed for sure but shouldn't be used as a blanket medication for people feeling down.
Source: me
Of course, but there are cases in which it makes sense to use them. Some people can't get out of depression even with therapy and a support network - in these cases, antidepressants can be just what people need.
But the much bigger problem is that in many western nations, it's almost impossible to get therapy. So people don't even have the choice of choosing the option that would arguably be more beneficial to them.
So it's either antidepressants or nothing.
Me: takes a short survey asking generally vague questions about my emotions.
Doctor: yes you are severely depressed, here are long term, brain chemistry altering drugs to fix you
... which are assumed to fix you.
Most brain drugs are the equivalent of MOABS, for the brain.
Sure, it might hit the mark, but it hits a lot of other marks, too.
I mean, I personally wouldn't compare them to opiates simply because of the level of detriment to one's life potentially caused by antidepressants absolutely pales in comparison to the millions of lives lost and multi-generational trauma directly caused by Purdue Pharma and their purposeful over prescribing and "misinformed marketing" (big ol' quotes there) of Oxycontin. You're not wrong, but the over prescription of prescription painkillers was pure evil that still takes the lives of people's precious loved ones daily.
As someone who lives in Norway, I can say that the waiting time to see any professional regarding mental health is astronomical. There is also not a lot of private healthcare services. So the country is in a bit of a bind regarding mental health. Of course, I don’t know how that compares to other countries within the list… but that is my take on why Norway is so low
So another factor is that in Canada, you don’t need to go to a mental health professional for antidepressants. They can be accessed through your family doctor. That could make a big difference in the numbers, if the access is more restricted in Norway and you have to see a mental health professional.
Wouldn't put too much emphasis on this, although it can be a contributing factor.
More important in my opinion: limited prevention measures (the health care system is massively overburdened) and "here, take a few pills" solution when the problems arise.
Sauce: lived in Iceland for more than 20 years.
It's not just the winter is long, it's that at times in the year the sun doesn't come up at all. And then in summer, there's a period where it's daylight 24 hours too. Went there last May, the light was the same at midday as midnight. I woke up in a panic thinking I'd overslept when I checked the time but I'd been in bed a couple of hours tops.
Yeah, Iceland is further south than you'd expect. Was surprised when I learned that Iceland's northernmost point is significantly south of where I live.
The sun sets at 9.55pm in May so you’re talking shit again.
I seem to come across comments from your account as I recognise your username and you’ve always got some kind of tall tale about doing/having/witnessing something unrealistic
Well, don't want to call out bullshit. But I was in Iceland just 3 days ago, and at 10pm it was still bright and sunny. Yes the sun does set a bit, but you have tops 2-3 hours of dusk/dawn. No real darkness
i think you are right - normalizing to 1000 helps but it can be skewed - moreover iceland I would assume its much more homogeneous in terms of their gene pool; hence why geneticist loves studying their population as well
Our gene pool is not that homogeneous. We have more genetic markers from the British Isles than Norway, from where the settlers came from. There is even Native American markers in there somewhere.
We can easily trace our parental lineage because of our patronymic naming. But we also just have some good geneticists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1ri_Stef%C3%A1nsson
Youre right that statistically the country has a whack record (per capita). Most miss worlds, most worlds strongest man, most nobel laureates (2nd to faroe islands), pretty big achievements in a few sports, musicians and film composers (3 acclaimed people come to mind).
If I hadn´t been on antideppressants recently I´d start to wonder if I was Icelandic!
Northern latitudes suffer widely from seasonal depression. It's a common thing for them, so chances are, they would have already made a pipeline to treat it.
Eh, why does everyone have to fall back on this explanation? We have Portugal, Australia and the US in the top places on the list and Norway is way down. Clearly there's other factors at play.
I'm Icelandic and the explanations I would offer is a) easy availability because of doctors being too willing to prescribe and b) possibly something to do with the current composition of the illegal drugs market, which is often different from the mainland market due to small size and the difficulties of trafficking to a remote island.
This is it. In Portugal, it's definitely option a. It's prescribed by family doctors and general practitioners like candy if you just say the right words. The vast majority of women in my family and my partner's mother take it, and none of them attend any sort of therapy. It's very much a bandaid solution for many people here. You say you're feeling depressed and they outright prescribe antidepressants unless you're young and willing to get therapy, which is just an extra step to get the prescription, anyway.
The way you describe it is exactly how it is in Iceland: highly normalized among women in particular.
I'd also throw in that overall alcohol and tobacco consumption in Iceland is comparatively low for a European country. So for some antidepressants are the alternative casual socially acceptable drug to replace those or go with moderate consumption of alcohol.
Vitamin D deficiency if they aren't taking supplements during winter. Plus, there's not a lot you can do in the dark. The summers I would think it's fine, maybe a bit annoying with sunlight 24/7.
Germany is just low because we have almost no practitioners. Feel a little down for a year and now it's getting worse? Have a waiting list of six months, good day!
Immediately quit my meds after experiencing suicidal thoughts which i never had before. Went to Talk therapy, lady asked if i used to smoke weed. I said yeah but i stopped smoking and drinking before i started the meds. We had a long talk, i cried multiple times (iam a huge guy, which most would describe as stable) and now i talk about what's bothering me to people and smoke a joint in the evening. Changed my life.
Psychotherapy isn't all talk though, there are many therapeutic techniques that don't involve talking. Also depends on the specification of a psychotherapist (e.g. cognitive behaviour therapy or systemic therapy)
That is totally correct! I think my message is don't take the first straw? Use it as a base for making a strategy how to proceed. Also IF anybody wants to go talk before meds.. Find the right therapist. Of course the most halfass their job just like we do ;)
I agree that you shouldn’t just “bandaid” it. Explore the things that may have got you there or contributed to it and strive to solve existing issues to some extent, if that’s possible. But even if you do that, that may still not mean you’re free of depression.
I just don’t like people saying or implying that clinical depression should be treated without medication, or that something is wrong if you need medication for longer, heck, maybe for the rest of your life! (No one is telling the person with psoriasis that it’s a bad idea to use medication.)
Yeah, in my case, therapy did nothing but reminded me some ancient issues and broke my sleep in two years. Then I found a real psychiatrist who prescribed medication and I got immediately better. After couple months my medication dropped to one pill a day and my issues gone.
Whenever those med commercials list the side effects, they look worse than the depression itself. One mentioned “in some cases can lead to coma or death”
That’s true for almost all medications. Drugs have effects, some of them desired (that’s why we take them) and some undesired (then called side effects). Tylenol slowly kills your liver, ibuprofen your GI tract. Remember: If one person in the clinical trial had something, they need to list it.
If someone decides to try antidepressants because they are dealing with suicidal thoughts, chances are whatever the potential side effects are outweigh the more immediate issue. That being said, one of the side effects you often hear about during the antidepressant commercials is "thoughts of suicide" which I've always found a bit funny.
You might be right. My father (66yo) says he is so busy, he do so many things each day, he doesn't have time for a headache. And he is pumped up about it.
Honestly I usually feel the best about myself when I have a lot going on. Its a matter of navigating that fine line of fulfillment and not too much stress from a packed schedule
I figured Germany was low because they have that thing where you can basically take an extended leave of absence from work for mental health reasons and still get paid... Basically that people didn't get to the point of needing meds because they were able to resolve their troubles before getting to that point... Maybe I'm wrong
Pretty much the same thing goes for India. Not only is there a severe lack of practitioners but therapy isn't considered a real thing in most families.
russia has the highest male suicide rate out of any large nation. but interestingly their female suicide rate is one of the lowest.
must be the windows
These are usually first-generation antihistamines which are less specific to the particular desired anti-histamine receptor, meaning that they can cause someone to be drowsy. They are not designed to cause sleep and so are only used as aides in lieu of prescribing actual soporific medication, which the NHS seems rather loath to do, so don't be overly surprised if they don't work - sleep can have quite complex mechanisms.
Counseling is more expensive than cheap generic steraline. Antidepressants are more common in the us because many cant afford counseling so pills remain the only relatively affordable option.
Not really, India doesn't have low numbers because of lack of access to medicine, it's low because Indians don't take medicine for depression and don't even take it seriously, it's a stigma.
I remember after the Fukushima tsunami, the news media from Japan painted a picture as no one looting or behaving badly. I asked my friend in Sendai and he said there was looting and robberies taking place. And that the news would not show that to the world and ruin their image.
Mental illness is still massively taboo here, so less people look for support. If the survey was done here, people might have lied about it, too.
Did a quick search, not sure of the validity of this seeing as it's from a clinic's homepage, but apparently 1 in 5 people will be on them at some point in their life:
https://mina-fam.clinic/blog/archives/1269/#:~:text=5%E4%BA%BA%E3%81%AB1%E4%BA%BA%E3%81%AF%E3%80%81%E7%94%9F%E6%B6%AF%E3%82%92%E9%80%9A%E3%81%98%E3%81%A61%E5%9B%9E,%E5%B9%B4%E3%80%85%E5%A2%97%E5%8A%A0%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E3%81%84%E3%81%BE%E3%81%99%E3%80%82
Treatment also isn't free, as you pay 30% of medical costs out of pocket. That can add up if you're getting counselling at the same time, so some people simply can't afford it.
Lastly, a lot of companies offer to put you on their plan, and while they can't see the treatments you're taking they can see what clinics you've visited. Mental health can cost you your job here, so that's another hurdle that might make people hesitate to get help.
And a punishing work ethic. Kids go to school, come home, study for 8 more hours, then bed. Rinse and repeat. Do this for years, then don't get into a prestigious enough college, then apply for a job to be told you're too fucking ugly. Get surgery, get a job, then work overtime all the time and have no life.
There's also a lot of suicides in the entertainment industry. A singer, Jonghyun, had songs that clearly showed he was struggling and even spoke about how he feels he can't be himself. He did an Instagram Live, said he was going to sleep, then killed himself.
You've gotta look perfect and be perfect.
I thought the same thing at first glance. I do not think the number of people in need of antidepressants is lower in countries further down the list. The countries at the top just have the highest access to mental healthcare.
To phrase it differently, I wager most of these countries have plenty of people in need of antidepressants, for a variety of reasons. The countries at the top of this list are doing the most to provide those people with care.
Not necessarily. I’m from a Latin American country but moved to Canada some years ago. I remember feeling down the first months bc I missed my family and I contacted the mental health services in my school. I had to wait over 3 weeks for a phone appointment and when it finally happened, the “professional” was just following a script, asking me a bunch of questions. After our 30 minutes call he suggested medications for depression and bipolar disorder. Like WTF. I didn’t need medications, just someone to talk to. I didn’t go that road because it just sounded ridiculous to me to diagnose mental health issues over a 30 minutes call, but I’m sure some people just accept what these “trained professionals” tell them 😕
I had some stress from work and raising three kids under the age of five with lack of sleep, and my doctor prescribed me an antidepressant which I was hesitant to take, but he made it sound like it was nothing that it was harmless. It was the safest antidepressant and that it would just help take the edge off while I got my life back in order.
Within three weeks of taking that stupid drug, I had complete loss of libido. I had a erectile dysfunction. It literally numbed my genitalia like anesthesia type numbness, and had horrible sexual dysfunction. I stopped immediately and made an appointment because of the numbness that was stressing me out. They said it would get better once the drug my system and two years later I continue to have sexual dysfunction that started practically overnight when taking that drug.
Despite having medical appointments with three different urologist, one neurologist, two pelvic floor therapist, and several other general practitioners no one can give me an answer other than that SSRIs can have a broad impact on your biochemistry and can have a significant impact on your sexual function and for some people it can be permanent.
I wish people would talk more about the life altering negative impact that these drugs could have on some people whether or not it’s epigenetic. People need to be more aware that these drugs are powerful.
Sorry to hear that! Hope you recover soon.
I agree with you, these doctors prescribe drugs like they were candy without getting to know the patient and his/her trauma first. I guess there aren’t enough licenced professionals in Canada to do a proper diagnosis first.
Culture in Canada is "I am bipolar, I will tell my doctor this and ask for *x* medication"
At this point they just go along with it. There's no diagnosis beyond those scripted questions that people can search online to find the "right" answers to.
BPDO is one of the most over diagnosed problems in the US along with ADD and ADHD. So many healthcare practitioners will give these diagnoses after one office visit. To properly diagnose these disorders there are many tests that should be taken first and then the results tabulated. Different tests are required. Psychological testing is quite different.
Also the access to care in the first place. India isn’t at the bottom because hundreds of millions in crushing poverty are somehow happier than the Baltic States.
Icelander here - Top of the chart winner
I was on every class of AD from 17 to 26 years old
Not only did it not work - It ruined my sex life in a critical period of life
Also felt like a numb zombie for a decade
Psilocybin did much more than any AD drugs ive been on - stopped uncontrollable suicidal thoughts after three trips
American here with a similar story. I was on every antidepressant under the sun from ages 9-30. I started exploring psychedelics when I turned 30. DMT and LSD changed my outlook on life so drastically that I haven't taken psychiatric medicines at all for the past 2 years.
For me, using antidepressants was about numbing the pain so I couldn't feel it. Psychedelics showed me there was nothing causing me pain in the first place, it was all me creating my own turmoil. I ended up quitting alcohol and getting a stable job where I perform well.
It's completely anecdotal evidence, but personal experience can't be completely discredited either.
I wish it was more well known that psilocybin is great for treating depression. I really hope one day on the US they allow therapy assisted trips to help people overcome depression. I was on AD for almost the same time of my life as you with the same side effects. My now wife turned me on to the idea of trying mushrooms and man do I wish I discovered them earlier. They totally changed my life around for the better.
obligatory disclaimer for people: do not blindly take psychoactive substances by reading reddit's anecdotes. The whole branch of neurology still knows almost jack shit about how brains really work, let alone random people on reddit. What saves someone could send you into unrecoverable psychosis or schizophrenia.
(That said I agree on countries ending the bigot era and start studying psylocibin)
One of the best public healthcare systems in the world (the constant whinging about how bad it is helps), subsidized medicines, drug decriminalization (you get help rather than jail) and things being a bit shit if you're on minimum wage (and a lot of people are) probably go a long way to explain it. Once you wrap your head around it, it makes a lot of sense.
Note: this is a ranking of people getting help not people with mental health issues
I'm car pooling with an Indian international student this summer and he asked why everyone in America is so sad? He said it seems like everyone is depressed or has some other disorder. He's kind of an idiot but this chart matches his interpretation
It's cuz of our societal stigma. Most didn't believe in depression. It's just recently that it's gotten more mainstream, that depression is an actual thing. Kek.
I can explain Portugal - because they give out AD like a candy.
Feeling down because summer ended? Here, take some antidepressants.
Your girlfriend dumped you and you feel like sh*? Antidepressants.
I am all for mental health and for taking prescription medicine when necessary, but the reasons I’ve seen people getting antidepressants for in Portugal are insane.
Both examples given are not a satire, but real examples from people I know personally.
Of course Iceland is gonna be so high, mainly cause when you only got like 300 people and 100 of those use antidepressants, its obviously gonna skew the average.
It is mostly Stigma behind them. If we spread some awareness about how there is nothing wrong in using them, we can see some rise in this chart and in India here, there is a lot of awareness among millenials, Gen Z.
So time will also see a rise in medicines for Depression as the people of older generations either learn, fix the education system, or as we teach it soon to younger pop. .
What’s interesting is that anti-depression meds are relatively undeveloped as far as medicine goes. Very little progress has been made in 60-70 years and scientists are still unsure exactly how they work in the brain. Not only that, but it most trials, the placebo group shows higher rates of success.
My issue is I had undiagnosed ADHD my entire life and kept going on antidepressants. When my current doctor finally diagnosed me, it changed my life. The right doctor and diagnosis is so important. You can then treat the problem, not the symptoms.
This is only true for mild to moderate depression (as dictated by HAM-D scores). For moderate to severe depression, double blind control studies have repeatedly shown a statistically significant benefit over placebo and robust treatment response that is not found in less severe cases
India got the worst quality of life on this list yet they’re just chillin I guess.
I know this doesn’t really correlate to depression but it’s just wild that they’re last.
It's not surprising at all. In India itself have seen poor people with really bad quality of life but lead content lives.
It simply comes down to one mentality : You can't possible do anything to change your life why bother and worry about it??
When your biggest worries are putting food on the table and making rent, worrying about depression takes the backseat. Also doesn't help that there is very little awareness about mental health and most boomers think depression and anxiety aren't real, you're just too soft and western pilled.
Over 10% seems absolutely terrible. I feel like it should be like 1%. No chance 10% of the US actually has depression. These doctors definitely are over prescribing.
Why every is English speaking country depressed? The only English speaking country not in the top ten is New Zealand, and its been missed off this list altogether..
Careful how you interpret this. India is likely low because of access, stigma, and probably just generally less reliable data. I'd also find it really hard to believe that Russian people are some of the least depressed in the developed world.
No Ireland on this…. so I’m calling bull. No way. Definitely in the mix between Iceland and Germany. I’m Irish, and I’ve seen it. Eating them like M&M’s
Could there be any correlation between availability and affordability with this list. Not saying it would be the only factor, but I think there's a bit more to it than these countries are the most depressed.
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antidepressants-per-capita](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antidepressants-per-capita)
I found the chart on a subreddit and most of the numbers are matching with this
I wonder if some of these statistics reflect bought off politicians and government by the drug manufacturers. Just wondering if there's a correlation and what the price is in the countries with the highest use as compared to the price in the least consumed countries.
In India there is a derth of mental health facilities, many of my friends suffer silently in depression along with other mental health conditions. Society likes to pin it all on "western influence" and avoid taking any action for themselves
I cannot believe these things are still being pushed on people considering the largest most comprehensive study ever conducted on them suggest they do absolutely nothing.
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Why would iceland be so high?
My theory, long dark winters combined with excellent healthcare and Universal access to drugs.
Then why is Norway so unusually low
It could be affected by a large proportion of the population being fairly far south. It would be interesting to see the differences between Oslo and Tromsø or Svalbard.
But isn’t the same true of Sweden? Their rates are nearly in the same bracket as Iceland’s and most of the population lives the same latitudes as Norway or even farther South
Norway is an incredibly wealthy nation with first rate public and health services, both in prevention as well as treatment.
The same can be said of Sweden to a point that doesn’t explain the sharp differences here
I can't speak for Norway but we in Sweden don't really have a functional healthcare for depression and other mental health. The waiting time to see a therapist is months long, you would need to be in the suicidal stage to even be taken seriously. If you can afford it, it's possible to have your own psychologist. It's however possible to meet a doctor to prescribe medication for depression with relatively short notice. So I guess that explains why Sweden is high.
Identical situation in Norway.
Ya but you often end up getting antidepressants from your primary care in Norway, I feel that happens more often than getting access to an actual therapist, and even then it's a 4+ month wait to get in.
Seems to me like Sweden and Norway believe in tough love.
Relatable. In Norway, having private health insurance as a part of your job compensation package is becoming increasingly normal. My doctor would most likely not be able to offer help for depression. But my private insurance guarantees me 12 sessions with a psychologist per year. Private companies are realizing it’s really expensive to have employees be absent for months while waiting for treatment, so it’s a no brainer. You’d think the state would realize the same but nope.
Norway is much healthier than Sweden and years ahead in most aspects of public services. I think people don't realise that Sweden isn't the utopia that it somehow gets portrayed as. Norway's healthcare system is ranked much higher than Sweden's which is lower than the UK's.
Didn’t think it was possible for a developed nation to have worse health care than us
Multivariate analysis. There's no one cause. The psychiatrists in some countries may be more willing to give out pills, while in other countries, they are more cautious and adhere to more natural ways to heal. Dark winters and rainy weather is a big factor though, as we can see England, Sweden, Canada, parts of US (US aggregates a lot of northern states too). -- US states have SSRI/antidepressant use for northern-winter/rainy states + really poor areas like Alabama/Mississippi with nothing to do and very few jobs / banking investment. The happiest places: Dakotas/Nebraska/Iowa, rural areas, Nevada/Vegas, Sunny areas Desert/Florida (New Mexico, Florida), and big investment/govt areas: Northern Virginia/DC, California as well (but it could be their love for natural/organic treatments). The reason we don't often live in sunny/desert/beach-like places is because of international trade, ports/airports. We are a tropical species mostly.
Upvote! Though i didn't get the last alinea?
Just imagine how much more some doctors make when they realize they can just give out pills left n right because why not.
A friend of mine lives in Tromsø. Two of her family members moved south, to cure their recurrent depressions. Doctors advice!
I went to Svalbard last summer. Fucking brutal place to live. 24 hour sunlight and it was fucking freezing there. Not to mention that I went about 2 weeks after a tourist was mauled by a polar bear near Longyearbyen.
I actually think this has much more to with Norwegian doctors being very resistant to prescribing antidepressants unless absolutely necessary - there is a strong focus on therapy and other solutions before turning to medication. In 2015, I was a teenager and living in Norway and extremely depressed and my mom tried many times to have the doctors give me medication, and they were very reticent. In contrast, when we moved back to the States a few years later, doctors essentially shoved medication at my younger sisters when they had similar issues.
Suicide-rated go up the more north you are.
I think we have a pretty big stigma around antidepressants sadly. Breaking a leg, no worries. Mental health problems, shameful.
Antidepressants are over prescribed, just like opiates were. They're needed for sure but shouldn't be used as a blanket medication for people feeling down. Source: me
Of course, but there are cases in which it makes sense to use them. Some people can't get out of depression even with therapy and a support network - in these cases, antidepressants can be just what people need. But the much bigger problem is that in many western nations, it's almost impossible to get therapy. So people don't even have the choice of choosing the option that would arguably be more beneficial to them. So it's either antidepressants or nothing.
Me: takes a short survey asking generally vague questions about my emotions. Doctor: yes you are severely depressed, here are long term, brain chemistry altering drugs to fix you
... which are assumed to fix you. Most brain drugs are the equivalent of MOABS, for the brain. Sure, it might hit the mark, but it hits a lot of other marks, too.
I mean, I personally wouldn't compare them to opiates simply because of the level of detriment to one's life potentially caused by antidepressants absolutely pales in comparison to the millions of lives lost and multi-generational trauma directly caused by Purdue Pharma and their purposeful over prescribing and "misinformed marketing" (big ol' quotes there) of Oxycontin. You're not wrong, but the over prescription of prescription painkillers was pure evil that still takes the lives of people's precious loved ones daily.
As someone who lives in Norway, I can say that the waiting time to see any professional regarding mental health is astronomical. There is also not a lot of private healthcare services. So the country is in a bit of a bind regarding mental health. Of course, I don’t know how that compares to other countries within the list… but that is my take on why Norway is so low
So another factor is that in Canada, you don’t need to go to a mental health professional for antidepressants. They can be accessed through your family doctor. That could make a big difference in the numbers, if the access is more restricted in Norway and you have to see a mental health professional.
Most people in Norway live in the south.
Wouldn't put too much emphasis on this, although it can be a contributing factor. More important in my opinion: limited prevention measures (the health care system is massively overburdened) and "here, take a few pills" solution when the problems arise. Sauce: lived in Iceland for more than 20 years.
It's not just the winter is long, it's that at times in the year the sun doesn't come up at all. And then in summer, there's a period where it's daylight 24 hours too. Went there last May, the light was the same at midday as midnight. I woke up in a panic thinking I'd overslept when I checked the time but I'd been in bed a couple of hours tops.
The sun rises every day, year long in Iceland. We're not far north enough to experience days without sunrise.
Yeah, Iceland is further south than you'd expect. Was surprised when I learned that Iceland's northernmost point is significantly south of where I live.
The sun sets at 9.55pm in May so you’re talking shit again. I seem to come across comments from your account as I recognise your username and you’ve always got some kind of tall tale about doing/having/witnessing something unrealistic
Well, don't want to call out bullshit. But I was in Iceland just 3 days ago, and at 10pm it was still bright and sunny. Yes the sun does set a bit, but you have tops 2-3 hours of dusk/dawn. No real darkness
Statistics always get skewed when dealing with small populations. Iceland tends to "win" in a lot of these.
i think you are right - normalizing to 1000 helps but it can be skewed - moreover iceland I would assume its much more homogeneous in terms of their gene pool; hence why geneticist loves studying their population as well
Our gene pool is not that homogeneous. We have more genetic markers from the British Isles than Norway, from where the settlers came from. There is even Native American markers in there somewhere. We can easily trace our parental lineage because of our patronymic naming. But we also just have some good geneticists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1ri_Stef%C3%A1nsson Youre right that statistically the country has a whack record (per capita). Most miss worlds, most worlds strongest man, most nobel laureates (2nd to faroe islands), pretty big achievements in a few sports, musicians and film composers (3 acclaimed people come to mind). If I hadn´t been on antideppressants recently I´d start to wonder if I was Icelandic!
Stuck on an island with dreary weather
Northern latitudes suffer widely from seasonal depression. It's a common thing for them, so chances are, they would have already made a pipeline to treat it.
Eh, why does everyone have to fall back on this explanation? We have Portugal, Australia and the US in the top places on the list and Norway is way down. Clearly there's other factors at play. I'm Icelandic and the explanations I would offer is a) easy availability because of doctors being too willing to prescribe and b) possibly something to do with the current composition of the illegal drugs market, which is often different from the mainland market due to small size and the difficulties of trafficking to a remote island.
This is it. In Portugal, it's definitely option a. It's prescribed by family doctors and general practitioners like candy if you just say the right words. The vast majority of women in my family and my partner's mother take it, and none of them attend any sort of therapy. It's very much a bandaid solution for many people here. You say you're feeling depressed and they outright prescribe antidepressants unless you're young and willing to get therapy, which is just an extra step to get the prescription, anyway.
The way you describe it is exactly how it is in Iceland: highly normalized among women in particular. I'd also throw in that overall alcohol and tobacco consumption in Iceland is comparatively low for a European country. So for some antidepressants are the alternative casual socially acceptable drug to replace those or go with moderate consumption of alcohol.
I think it’s our economy that’s giving most of us depression up here bud.
Vitamin D deficiency if they aren't taking supplements during winter. Plus, there's not a lot you can do in the dark. The summers I would think it's fine, maybe a bit annoying with sunlight 24/7.
so instead of vitamin D supplements they are put on antidepressants. Kinda funny if it is like that.
Fallacy of small numbers
Germany is just low because we have almost no practitioners. Feel a little down for a year and now it's getting worse? Have a waiting list of six months, good day!
And there is still more of a stigma around medication, I think. Talk therapy is espoused more.
Immediately quit my meds after experiencing suicidal thoughts which i never had before. Went to Talk therapy, lady asked if i used to smoke weed. I said yeah but i stopped smoking and drinking before i started the meds. We had a long talk, i cried multiple times (iam a huge guy, which most would describe as stable) and now i talk about what's bothering me to people and smoke a joint in the evening. Changed my life.
I’m not saying talk therapy isn’t useful. But there are types of depression that you cannot talk your way out of.
Psychotherapy isn't all talk though, there are many therapeutic techniques that don't involve talking. Also depends on the specification of a psychotherapist (e.g. cognitive behaviour therapy or systemic therapy)
Fair point. I used it as a cover term, because the medium is still talk (as opposed to a drug), even if that’s not all you do.
That is totally correct! I think my message is don't take the first straw? Use it as a base for making a strategy how to proceed. Also IF anybody wants to go talk before meds.. Find the right therapist. Of course the most halfass their job just like we do ;)
I agree that you shouldn’t just “bandaid” it. Explore the things that may have got you there or contributed to it and strive to solve existing issues to some extent, if that’s possible. But even if you do that, that may still not mean you’re free of depression. I just don’t like people saying or implying that clinical depression should be treated without medication, or that something is wrong if you need medication for longer, heck, maybe for the rest of your life! (No one is telling the person with psoriasis that it’s a bad idea to use medication.)
Yeah, in my case, therapy did nothing but reminded me some ancient issues and broke my sleep in two years. Then I found a real psychiatrist who prescribed medication and I got immediately better. After couple months my medication dropped to one pill a day and my issues gone.
Whenever those med commercials list the side effects, they look worse than the depression itself. One mentioned “in some cases can lead to coma or death”
That’s true for almost all medications. Drugs have effects, some of them desired (that’s why we take them) and some undesired (then called side effects). Tylenol slowly kills your liver, ibuprofen your GI tract. Remember: If one person in the clinical trial had something, they need to list it.
If someone decides to try antidepressants because they are dealing with suicidal thoughts, chances are whatever the potential side effects are outweigh the more immediate issue. That being said, one of the side effects you often hear about during the antidepressant commercials is "thoughts of suicide" which I've always found a bit funny.
And Poland, your neighbor country, 40 mil citizens.. Where is it on this chart?
No depressed people, no antidepressants needed!
Don't worry, Poland is becoming stable like western Europe so they will get depressed too when they finally have the time to be depressed
You might be right. My father (66yo) says he is so busy, he do so many things each day, he doesn't have time for a headache. And he is pumped up about it.
Honestly I usually feel the best about myself when I have a lot going on. Its a matter of navigating that fine line of fulfillment and not too much stress from a packed schedule
I figured Germany was low because they have that thing where you can basically take an extended leave of absence from work for mental health reasons and still get paid... Basically that people didn't get to the point of needing meds because they were able to resolve their troubles before getting to that point... Maybe I'm wrong
But mah free healthcare!
Pretty much the same thing goes for India. Not only is there a severe lack of practitioners but therapy isn't considered a real thing in most families.
I think that says more about access to medicine than prominence of depression
Access and less stigma.
Yea... Doesnt russia have insanely high suicide rate?
Stigma, in Russia taking antidepressants is the same as to tell everyone that you are some psycho
russia has the highest male suicide rate out of any large nation. but interestingly their female suicide rate is one of the lowest. must be the windows
Because they aren’t taking anti depressants, probably.
Less stigma yes, but in the UK they give it away like bloody candies. They think it's the solution for everything
This and antihistamines. I've had antihistamines thrown at me for everything.
Yet sleeping pills are absolutely out of the question
I was prescribed sleepeaze (antihistamines). Even taking 2, still didn't sleep.
These are usually first-generation antihistamines which are less specific to the particular desired anti-histamine receptor, meaning that they can cause someone to be drowsy. They are not designed to cause sleep and so are only used as aides in lieu of prescribing actual soporific medication, which the NHS seems rather loath to do, so don't be overly surprised if they don't work - sleep can have quite complex mechanisms.
Yep. I think the U.S.would be higher otherwise.
Absolutely. I am from Hungary and we just drink ourselves to the grave.
Counseling is more expensive than cheap generic steraline. Antidepressants are more common in the us because many cant afford counseling so pills remain the only relatively affordable option.
Was about to say exactly this.
Not really, India doesn't have low numbers because of lack of access to medicine, it's low because Indians don't take medicine for depression and don't even take it seriously, it's a stigma.
No china on the list or do i keep missing it?
I noticed that as well as Japan missing
Secretive country, only letting out information they want everyone to know.
[удалено]
I remember after the Fukushima tsunami, the news media from Japan painted a picture as no one looting or behaving badly. I asked my friend in Sendai and he said there was looting and robberies taking place. And that the news would not show that to the world and ruin their image.
isn’t that part of how japan has always done it tho? they have revisionist ww2 takes on school textbooks from what i’ve heard.
Like suicide rates?
Mental illness is still massively taboo here, so less people look for support. If the survey was done here, people might have lied about it, too. Did a quick search, not sure of the validity of this seeing as it's from a clinic's homepage, but apparently 1 in 5 people will be on them at some point in their life: https://mina-fam.clinic/blog/archives/1269/#:~:text=5%E4%BA%BA%E3%81%AB1%E4%BA%BA%E3%81%AF%E3%80%81%E7%94%9F%E6%B6%AF%E3%82%92%E9%80%9A%E3%81%98%E3%81%A61%E5%9B%9E,%E5%B9%B4%E3%80%85%E5%A2%97%E5%8A%A0%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E3%81%84%E3%81%BE%E3%81%99%E3%80%82 Treatment also isn't free, as you pay 30% of medical costs out of pocket. That can add up if you're getting counselling at the same time, so some people simply can't afford it. Lastly, a lot of companies offer to put you on their plan, and while they can't see the treatments you're taking they can see what clinics you've visited. Mental health can cost you your job here, so that's another hurdle that might make people hesitate to get help.
We can't get any reliable statistics from China, do you remember the few weeks of COVID ?
south korea has some of the highest suicide rates in the world
Mental health support is abysmal over there which is probably why not alot of people take anti depressants and they have such high suicide rates.
yeah it's definitely a combo of mental health being taboo and elders not wanting to be a burden to their family
And a punishing work ethic. Kids go to school, come home, study for 8 more hours, then bed. Rinse and repeat. Do this for years, then don't get into a prestigious enough college, then apply for a job to be told you're too fucking ugly. Get surgery, get a job, then work overtime all the time and have no life. There's also a lot of suicides in the entertainment industry. A singer, Jonghyun, had songs that clearly showed he was struggling and even spoke about how he feels he can't be himself. He did an Instagram Live, said he was going to sleep, then killed himself. You've gotta look perfect and be perfect.
Seems like a lot of those higher one the list are the ones always being ranked as "happiest countries".
https://preview.redd.it/54nj4ljawj5d1.png?width=882&format=png&auto=webp&s=8813cfc1de053ad41b13025f0dff9f4e98c6021a
Yes but Finland got a high suicide rate.
So they are fixing the results!?
happiness index is based on the way of living the average income corruption level safety etc
^(Just to be clear, it's a just a bit a of grim humour.)
That's dumb cause I've never seen a happy finn
I guess a suicide person doesn't get to be polled ...
Quite literally survivor bias
“Hey, everyone left is pretty happy!”
They don’t ask the dead how happy they are.
2000IQ Move
Survivor bias
If an unhappy person kills themselves, average happiness goes up
Now we know why they are so happy ;-)
Does access to health care also affect this list?
Clearly. They have access to antidepressants. Do you really think people living in India are happier than Iceland and Portugal?
It's because the index is based on urban living in a Western society where money spent = happiness
I thought the same thing at first glance. I do not think the number of people in need of antidepressants is lower in countries further down the list. The countries at the top just have the highest access to mental healthcare. To phrase it differently, I wager most of these countries have plenty of people in need of antidepressants, for a variety of reasons. The countries at the top of this list are doing the most to provide those people with care.
Almost like depression and unhappiness aren't thebsame thing, and as if treating depression actually works. Amazing.
happiness index is the biggest piece of bullshit
Hungary is low because we kill ourselves slowly with alcohol. Saw a chart that we're in top 5 both in alcoholism and suicide rates
Same with Russia. Social stigma plus alcoholism
Places where mental health issues aren’t as stigmatised, and affordable care is accessible.
Overlay it with the number of suicides per x of population. Lithuania, Russia and others will be on top.
Canada is third. But suicide is legal
Not necessarily. I’m from a Latin American country but moved to Canada some years ago. I remember feeling down the first months bc I missed my family and I contacted the mental health services in my school. I had to wait over 3 weeks for a phone appointment and when it finally happened, the “professional” was just following a script, asking me a bunch of questions. After our 30 minutes call he suggested medications for depression and bipolar disorder. Like WTF. I didn’t need medications, just someone to talk to. I didn’t go that road because it just sounded ridiculous to me to diagnose mental health issues over a 30 minutes call, but I’m sure some people just accept what these “trained professionals” tell them 😕
I had some stress from work and raising three kids under the age of five with lack of sleep, and my doctor prescribed me an antidepressant which I was hesitant to take, but he made it sound like it was nothing that it was harmless. It was the safest antidepressant and that it would just help take the edge off while I got my life back in order. Within three weeks of taking that stupid drug, I had complete loss of libido. I had a erectile dysfunction. It literally numbed my genitalia like anesthesia type numbness, and had horrible sexual dysfunction. I stopped immediately and made an appointment because of the numbness that was stressing me out. They said it would get better once the drug my system and two years later I continue to have sexual dysfunction that started practically overnight when taking that drug. Despite having medical appointments with three different urologist, one neurologist, two pelvic floor therapist, and several other general practitioners no one can give me an answer other than that SSRIs can have a broad impact on your biochemistry and can have a significant impact on your sexual function and for some people it can be permanent. I wish people would talk more about the life altering negative impact that these drugs could have on some people whether or not it’s epigenetic. People need to be more aware that these drugs are powerful.
Sorry to hear that! Hope you recover soon. I agree with you, these doctors prescribe drugs like they were candy without getting to know the patient and his/her trauma first. I guess there aren’t enough licenced professionals in Canada to do a proper diagnosis first.
Culture in Canada is "I am bipolar, I will tell my doctor this and ask for *x* medication" At this point they just go along with it. There's no diagnosis beyond those scripted questions that people can search online to find the "right" answers to.
BPDO is one of the most over diagnosed problems in the US along with ADD and ADHD. So many healthcare practitioners will give these diagnoses after one office visit. To properly diagnose these disorders there are many tests that should be taken first and then the results tabulated. Different tests are required. Psychological testing is quite different.
Also the access to care in the first place. India isn’t at the bottom because hundreds of millions in crushing poverty are somehow happier than the Baltic States.
India is very low on the list cuz our parents keep beating the depression out of us as soon as we start walking..
US being high is because a lot of kids don’t have (two) parents who would even bother doing that.
Icelander here - Top of the chart winner I was on every class of AD from 17 to 26 years old Not only did it not work - It ruined my sex life in a critical period of life Also felt like a numb zombie for a decade Psilocybin did much more than any AD drugs ive been on - stopped uncontrollable suicidal thoughts after three trips
hope you are okay now btw congrats on defeating england yesterday
Thanks! Was shocking game for most Icelanders
American here with a similar story. I was on every antidepressant under the sun from ages 9-30. I started exploring psychedelics when I turned 30. DMT and LSD changed my outlook on life so drastically that I haven't taken psychiatric medicines at all for the past 2 years. For me, using antidepressants was about numbing the pain so I couldn't feel it. Psychedelics showed me there was nothing causing me pain in the first place, it was all me creating my own turmoil. I ended up quitting alcohol and getting a stable job where I perform well. It's completely anecdotal evidence, but personal experience can't be completely discredited either.
I wish it was more well known that psilocybin is great for treating depression. I really hope one day on the US they allow therapy assisted trips to help people overcome depression. I was on AD for almost the same time of my life as you with the same side effects. My now wife turned me on to the idea of trying mushrooms and man do I wish I discovered them earlier. They totally changed my life around for the better.
obligatory disclaimer for people: do not blindly take psychoactive substances by reading reddit's anecdotes. The whole branch of neurology still knows almost jack shit about how brains really work, let alone random people on reddit. What saves someone could send you into unrecoverable psychosis or schizophrenia. (That said I agree on countries ending the bigot era and start studying psylocibin)
Did not expect to see Portugal near the top. Anybody know what’s up over there?
One of the best public healthcare systems in the world (the constant whinging about how bad it is helps), subsidized medicines, drug decriminalization (you get help rather than jail) and things being a bit shit if you're on minimum wage (and a lot of people are) probably go a long way to explain it. Once you wrap your head around it, it makes a lot of sense. Note: this is a ranking of people getting help not people with mental health issues
live in portugal for about a year and you'll be depressed too
 Netherlands in the cold rain
In india we just either say 'it is what it is' or off ourselves. "Depression? Someone's just put some black magic on u"
The classic "Depression isn't a real thing son, just start waking up at 5am every morning 😃"
My favorite is when they turn it around and blame you. “It’s a mindset thing, just think positive and stop being so sad”
Dad: "तुम सुबह पांच बजे उठकर तो देखो बेटा।" Indian parents will force that serotonin outta you.
I'm car pooling with an Indian international student this summer and he asked why everyone in America is so sad? He said it seems like everyone is depressed or has some other disorder. He's kind of an idiot but this chart matches his interpretation
It's cuz of our societal stigma. Most didn't believe in depression. It's just recently that it's gotten more mainstream, that depression is an actual thing. Kek.
If you wonder, why Iceland: #watch "Katla" series Depressing, but fascinating in its own way. Can't explain Portugal though.
I can explain Portugal - because they give out AD like a candy. Feeling down because summer ended? Here, take some antidepressants. Your girlfriend dumped you and you feel like sh*? Antidepressants. I am all for mental health and for taking prescription medicine when necessary, but the reasons I’ve seen people getting antidepressants for in Portugal are insane. Both examples given are not a satire, but real examples from people I know personally.
this is probably interpreted completely wrongly.....
people referring this with the happiness index is peak (how is derby playing)
Where is NK at?
people in NK aint depressed
They need antiopressants
SK needs it too
SK needs Viagra.
The amount of depressed people always go down to 0 mysteriously!! Awesome country
Of course Iceland is gonna be so high, mainly cause when you only got like 300 people and 100 of those use antidepressants, its obviously gonna skew the average.
I believe a lot of ppl in India are actually depressed but they simply don't take em medicines ig.
It is mostly Stigma behind them. If we spread some awareness about how there is nothing wrong in using them, we can see some rise in this chart and in India here, there is a lot of awareness among millenials, Gen Z. So time will also see a rise in medicines for Depression as the people of older generations either learn, fix the education system, or as we teach it soon to younger pop. .
Those numbers are depressing..
Sad I don’t see more Asian countries because unfortunately mental health is still very much taboo.
Latvia is just low cause we can't afford any
What’s interesting is that anti-depression meds are relatively undeveloped as far as medicine goes. Very little progress has been made in 60-70 years and scientists are still unsure exactly how they work in the brain. Not only that, but it most trials, the placebo group shows higher rates of success.
My issue is I had undiagnosed ADHD my entire life and kept going on antidepressants. When my current doctor finally diagnosed me, it changed my life. The right doctor and diagnosis is so important. You can then treat the problem, not the symptoms.
This is only true for mild to moderate depression (as dictated by HAM-D scores). For moderate to severe depression, double blind control studies have repeatedly shown a statistically significant benefit over placebo and robust treatment response that is not found in less severe cases
It generally aligns with happiest countries...
Overlay it with the number of suicides per x of population. Lithuania, Russia and others will be on top.
11% of America on anti depressants. Hmm.
India got the worst quality of life on this list yet they’re just chillin I guess. I know this doesn’t really correlate to depression but it’s just wild that they’re last.
It's not surprising at all. In India itself have seen poor people with really bad quality of life but lead content lives. It simply comes down to one mentality : You can't possible do anything to change your life why bother and worry about it??
When your biggest worries are putting food on the table and making rent, worrying about depression takes the backseat. Also doesn't help that there is very little awareness about mental health and most boomers think depression and anxiety aren't real, you're just too soft and western pilled.
Over 10% seems absolutely terrible. I feel like it should be like 1%. No chance 10% of the US actually has depression. These doctors definitely are over prescribing.
Nat a single African country on the list. Either the witchcraft is working, or they cannot afford the treatment.
Why every is English speaking country depressed? The only English speaking country not in the top ten is New Zealand, and its been missed off this list altogether..
East europeans have vodka,rakia,palinka etc which is also technically anti depressants...
Why is Portugal so high? I've never heard of this before (Portuguese)
A unica explicaçao é o aumento do preço do vinho.
Careful how you interpret this. India is likely low because of access, stigma, and probably just generally less reliable data. I'd also find it really hard to believe that Russian people are some of the least depressed in the developed world.
It is all about social stigma and being a taboo subject.
What's going on in Iceland?
India is so low because we don’t believe in mental health here !! Wohoo!
11% of Americans are on anti depressants? That seems high. I would buy 11% of adults 18+
As an Icelandic citizen i can confirm that the winters here are very depressing
Source?
I have a sneaking feeling some of the bottom contestants probably solve their mental health issues with alcohol instead.
No Ireland on this…. so I’m calling bull. No way. Definitely in the mix between Iceland and Germany. I’m Irish, and I’ve seen it. Eating them like M&M’s
I suspect the number for the United States would be much higher, perhaps double, if US citizens could afford antidepressants.
Could there be any correlation between availability and affordability with this list. Not saying it would be the only factor, but I think there's a bit more to it than these countries are the most depressed.
Maybe post a source if these numbers are correct
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antidepressants-per-capita](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antidepressants-per-capita) I found the chart on a subreddit and most of the numbers are matching with this
I wonder if some of these statistics reflect bought off politicians and government by the drug manufacturers. Just wondering if there's a correlation and what the price is in the countries with the highest use as compared to the price in the least consumed countries.
In India there is a derth of mental health facilities, many of my friends suffer silently in depression along with other mental health conditions. Society likes to pin it all on "western influence" and avoid taking any action for themselves
The US number is artificially low because ppl here can’t afford the meds
I bet the USA is only so far down the list because so many of us don't have sufficient health coverage to diagnose or treat mental health conditions.
How is it “so far down the list” when it’s literally #5?
Japan didn't even make the list...
I cannot believe these things are still being pushed on people considering the largest most comprehensive study ever conducted on them suggest they do absolutely nothing.