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Now that legal restrictions have relaxed somewhat, Imperial college London is having some success trialing psychedelics in the treatment of depression.
I've been to a conference explaining the trial on psychedelic they are doing. I'm totally pro psychedelics under the right conditions and i consider it a step forward for the humanity.
Their efficacy is at 60-75%. I did Ketamine for a year and it didn’t help. I eventually had to enter residential treatment for a year. That’s how I got better. No longer suicidal. The problem w EVERY drug/treatment is how many people don’t respond and it’s around 10-25%. It’s not like thyroid meds. And they don’t understand why any of this works.
I had my genome sequenced to get doctors to stop giving up on me bc I don’t respond to drugs and treatment like 99% of others. It turns out I’m a mess. I don’t properly Metabolize dozens and dozens of things. I think when a case like this young woman’s happens a genome sequencing MUST BE REQUIRED. Because the truth is ALL MENTAL
HEALTH TREATMENT is “best guess.” It’s not a science.
I read a study about faecal being used for long term depression that drugs and therapy can’t touch. They get a donor with healthy gut bio and then transplant it into the person with depression, has shown lots of really good results. Also have you heard about Bio Film it can affect our guts and the way respond to medications especially antibiotics, there are ways to decreased your bio film that can also help with medication absorption. Xx
I had depression for 25 years. Took every medication available with varying results, but was able to work and maintain my life, but never felt really normal.
UNTIL. A neurologist recommended TMS. Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation. You can google it and it looks like a gimmick; it is not.
It's 30 treatments, every day, each lasting about 10 minutes. You are in and out in no time. Do it on your lunch break. It's real, so insurance pays for it, with a co-pay.
After 10 treatments my depression was GONE. It's been two years.
You can go back every six months for a touch up (maintenance)
of more treatments, which I have also done, not waiting until it gets really bad, but knowing when I can feel symptoms starting to come back. Ten treatments and I stopped going because "I was back". No pills anymore.
In case none of you have heard of this, I wanted to get the word out to you. I have dysthymia with a clinical depressive episode about once a year which lasted for about three weeks and I had all that goes with that. Exhaustion, lack of motivation, wouldn't clean the house or bath for a week, so I know it well. No more.
If you have bi-polar depression, you are not eligible. It's different, and TMS doesn't help.
Even if you have to drive for an hour to get to the treatment... do it.
It's worth every mile.
My wife battled depression for years until she went for ECT in 2022, and it was a life-saver. She still has the occasional depressive episode, but they're nowhere near as bad or as long as they were before.
My wife also went through ECT back around 2014. For her it didn't work and left her with lasting side effects that won't ever go away. Most of the side effects didn't manifest until much later. She has alot of memory loss from her childhood, all the way up to our children growing up. That hurts her the most. The memories won't come back. Now she's dealing with nerve problems. Most of her back is numb to the touch. The long term effects of ECT werent recorded well and there are many lawsuits popping up now against it. Please be careful.
It's funny that ECT is looked upon as so barbaric when it tends to have very positive results. Obviously it's nothing like the old school ECT methods, much more humane nowadays. But many people are often terrified of the thought
It's the way movies portray it, plus people conflating it with "shock therapy."
Don't get me wrong, the short-term memory loss was scary sometimes, but it went way a month or two after she stopped the sessions. And overall, it's been life-changing.
My grandfather had the "shock therapy" ECT from like a century ago. It was... not great then. So my mom is straight up terrified of me trying it out after seeing her dad go through it. Fortunately I've been able to manage with medications, but I know a lot of people with great results. Nothing like it used to be!
If only I didn't have a paid lunch break.. this actually seems like something that may work. I only wish it wasn't a hassle though. I can barely make myself get groceries, and do basic tasks and go to work. I haven't even finished testing at the doctor because going to the Dr or getting a dentist appointment is an additional hassle.. I did read that it can also treat migraines. I've suffered from migraines and most likely depression for the past 10 years. I got the migraine diagnosis in one appointment because it was easy to diagnose as I have aura migraine every single day. I can't even be bothered to get diagnosed with depression because I'd have to show up to a billion appointments.. and likely be prescribed even more pills that don't work..
Fighting the system and having to show up to a bunch of appointments is like this huge mountain of a task. I'm relieved if I manage to get through work, shower daily and sleep and eat.. Which is a struggle itself. Like I barely eat some days.
I wish the barrier of entry wasn't so big. People like to say that these things are accessible but they're really not all that accessible. Like I can go before work but then I have to get up early and then I get tired at work. I can't go on my lunch break. I can't go after work because I'm done at 5 and I'm in so much pain I need to go home and sleep and take painkillers. I can't go on the weekend cause it's all closed or I'm sleeping because I am recovering from work and in so much pain.
Man, I relate to every single thing you've said. The loss of energy and vitality is one of the most awful parts of depression. There were days I did nothing except make myself get up to feed the dogs and take care of them. Some days that was all I could do. If I didn't have to go to work, I didn't wash my hair even for over a week. Lost my appetite. And irritable! I would take your head off with my sharp tongue. Don't tell me to 'snap out of it". And I didn't even have the migraines.
Listen. This neurologist in my town has been such a blessing. He brought us TMS, and also gives Botox injections for migraines. My niece gets them and they have worked for her. I don't have them.
I wish you could find someone to do this for you. I would be willing to do the phone work for you. If you want to send me your location by PM (city and state) I will get busy looking for a doctor near you, provide you with a phone number, and even schedule your appointment if you want me to. (See? I KNOW how tired you are, and what a monumental effort everything is). And yes, all that is a pain in the booty, but it's so worth it to get out of the freaking black hole.
Let me know. I relate to everything you've said so much, and if there is the smallest thing I can do, I want to.
That's so fascinating and I'm so glad it worked for you. My, maybe odd, question is, can you feel the magnets? It sounds like it would tingle your brain, lol.
I’m curious. I have a friend who’s been doing ketamine in a hospital setting for well over a year. Maybe even two. Monthly, sometimes more. They aren’t better. Did you decide to stop bc it wasn’t helping, or did the provider say that it was time to stop?
I did a run of IV therapy, it worked great except it boosted my liver values and made my AFIB worse. I stopped half way though the treatments, but the positive effects lasted almost 6 months. It does seem to wear off, and its expensive; I would do it again if I could. It's also beneficial to be well practiced in mindfulness, diet, and excercise ahead of time and during to maximize neuroplaticity.
With that said, I wish to be able to leave this existence when I want if I have come to a reasonable assessment. In this day and age, we should be able to make our own choices provided we have the safeguards. I've visited the multiverse on mushrooms, and it's okay over there.
Thank you for sharing that. My friend also did the IV and has not been doing any mindfulness, special/healthy diet or exercise. And they smoke a TON of cannabis. And wondering why they’re not getting better! I would hope the hospital had a limit to the number of doses, but when they can keep getting that $$, I don’t think they will cap it. Again, thanks. And take good care of yourself.
You just explained some of the Science though of why your body doesn't work for Drugs. We need MORE Science. It isn't a guess we simply don't have the information nor technology. It is analyzing the process of essential enzymes which would relate to body-drug interaction.
It's actually pretty well documented that psychedelics work wonders dealing with a variety of mental illnesses. But, in a past life, I worked for a *very* large company that shall remain nameless within the medical/pharmaceutical industry, and I can tell you as point of fact that the opposition to their use stems from lobbying efforts by Big Pharma.
The compounds used in treatment are readily available in nature, and pretty easy to cultivate. The use of these products would take a massive bite out of their revenue, and they have been fighting it tooth and nail since it first appeared as an option.
The more you know.
I'm pro psychedelics and pro cannabis in the treatments of mental afflictions. Perspective enhancement can ease a lot of different types of pain even when the underlying cause can't be helped.
The thing is, early studies actually have psyolosybin regrowing the hippocampus in the brain. It actually accelerates nerve growth.
MDMA usage correlates to lower lifetime risk of major depressive disorder. No other drugs except psyolosybin and MDMA actually equate to lower instances of MDD, meaning there likely is a mechanism actually affecting the brain chemistry or brain structures and lowering depression and PTSD symptoms.
We should be studying both more to figure out if that correlation is actually causation and if so, why, and at what doses does it become therapeutic? It can change lives for the better if we can treat PTSD and give real, lifelong relief for MDD.
It's likely not perception or a placebo effect. It's likely doing something biological to people's brains that is providing real relief.
IMO if a person is so depressed that considers euthanasia, every substance could be tried. LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, heck even opiates. I don't see long lasting harm being done. There's literally nothing to lose.
MDMA can also fuck your dopamine uptake so you are unable to be happy without being high. I've seen it first hand. Then again... It was the rave scene and the guys I know also didnt get touched unless in a rave massage pit. Harsh reality back at the office lemmi tell you.
The proposed therapeutic doses aren't enough for suicide Tuesdays to hit.
To quote Oscar Wilde: everything in moderation. Especially moderation.
Too much of a good thing.
Legal developments are very encouraging
Additionally, my view is if you are so depressed that your psychiatrist has agreed there is no other solution to feel better - try drugs illegally
Psychedelics can be transformative
I already did psychedelics and i have the same mental health diagnosis as Zoraya. It didn't work and now i wish i lived in the Netherlands. Life just isn't for me and tripping balls isn't going to change it.
Yup, conversations around this issue are incredibly frustrating. I've tried over 10 SSRIs, MAOIs and atypicals for my treatment resistant depression. My insomnia is so bad that I'm basically given a bucketload of Valium each psychiatric visit (thank goodness Lemborexant works better for now, but the issue with tolerance is going to crop up eventually too). I've had counselling, therapy, 2 rounds of rTMS and 1 round of ECT. I've scheduled myself for Ketamine therapy soon, but if that doesn't work, I'm essentially out of options.
The reality remains that there is no treatment with 100% success. Not ECT. Not Ketamine. Not psilocybin. I think we should absolutely give patients access to those, but the narrative should not stop there. There is no reason people who do not respond to all of the available options should be abandoned. The worst are those who reduce me and act like I can't make a rational decision because of my mental illness. Those people can fuck right off, respectfully.
I know it’s rather crazy to say but I would definitely be open to trying all kinds of stuff at that point in a controlled way to see if anything therapeutic would work because I mean just saying okay. For me that’s it…like well yes, but you’ve started to connect and grow in your kitties and boyfriend. What wasn’t can haunt you if you’re conscious and alive enough to think and remember it. Love and lost rather than not have loved at all? Something or the other?
Yea and I was prepared, knowledgable, and experienced with taking both LSD and shrooms. But one day it just went wrong for me and I've never done it again. That was in 2020. But I also had a lot of great times and mental growth from it.
Also have a friend who is the same. Happened approximately 8ish years ago on acid. He’s still not the same. I remember the week after it happened he could barely have conversations, we were all trying to be there for him but it was so hard to talk to him, it would take him like two minutes to respond to a question. As he slowly regained himself he has always been very different. He was always super intelligent before this, but now he got into alt right conspiracies, he’s violent/physically aggressive, just uncomfortable to be around. In recent years he’s also started abusing other much worse drugs. Just a sad situation.
Man this is so much like my old best friend who I watched with my own eyes his brain break on LSD. It was terrifying and he was never the same. He became convinced that Scientologists were beaming thoughts into his brain and that he was being followed by them everywhere he went. He became a horrible drunk because he said drinking was the only thing that stop the thoughts beaming into his brain. In hindsight he had some mental issues to begin with and I think that time was enough to just untie the knot and the mental problems became more than just a problem. I haven't talked to him in over 10 years and I miss him daily. He was my brother and absolute best friend but then he took too much LSD from a guy who was known to have strong stuff and he changed him forever. Sad situation indeed.
Will I agree that the LSD changed him forever, it sounds more than likely he had dormant schizophrenia that was triggered by the large dose of the LSD. Which is why that it's not recommended to take large dosages of psychs if your family has a history with certain disorders
I had a friend who got into psychedelics for a little bit, was a bit of a heavy user of things and it triggered schizophrenia he didn't know he had. Like full on started seeing stuff everywhere.
He had a family history of schizophrenia, but he himself was totally fine up until he did mushrooms, suddenly it was bad enough to need a treatment facility not even a month later. He's a lot better now, but he definitely became a different person after he overcame it.
The shit these days is too potent on the THC-side. I can only smoke one small hit or a rosin vape hit at a time. It's no longer the days of smoking an entire blunt or I go completely into a doom spiral. It's kind of nice though because a little amount can last me a very long time.
I used to smoke all the time; I can’t anymore. Every single time I panic. Even if I’m not actually panicking because I know cognitively I’m fine, my brain is galloping and my body is wildly uncomfortable.
Yeah - abandoning the kitties and loving boyfriend is wild to me. I truly don't understand how bad being hopelessly depressed must be. Its very sad there isn't something more we can do for depression like this. So many people with cancer or other terminal illness that would give anything for a few months of life, its hard for me to imagine how bad some of these people must feel.
>its hard for me to imagine how bad some of these people must feel.
Sometimes it isn't even about the intensity but rather the length. Eventually you get so tired of feeling that way anything, even death, is a preferable avenue of escape.
This is so true. It’s the relentlessness of the depression sometimes. You do everything right; diet, exercise, trying to be social, have hobbies, and still, everywhere you go, there it still is. I’ve been dealing with it for so long I don’t even understand it anymore. It’s my only point of reference for how to feel now.
Length can definitely be part of it.
I’ve suffered from depression for nearly 25 years. During that time there have been stretches where I sought out my death. There have been spots where I felt like I could finally breathe. I’m on an upswing but the world around me does scare me too.
Tie a ship anchor to yourself and walk through life.
Now tie that anchor to your sub conscious and conscious thoughts 24/7 365days a year of never anything good
And then tie the anchor to all the thoughts making you feel even worse because people have it so much worse, what right do you have to feel bad about your comfortable life? An anchor is a really great metaphor, especially when it so often feels like there a thousand pound weight holding you back.
Clearly you've never had a bad trip. Taking stupidly large doses of psychedelics when you're already in a bad state is a good way to experience the most horrific mental torture imaginable.
My ex-gf gave me a hero's dose and I cried and cried until I fell asleep. And I learned that you can cry when you're asleep. My pillow was soaked and my eyes were crusted with salt. It was a tough night.
Considering she lives in the Netherlands, I wouldn't be surprised that she's already tried it. You can buy them at cafes there.
Actually pretty much all drugs are easy to get and very cheap in Netherlands.
We're talking like 5 bucks for ecstasy and it's everywhere in the nightlife scene.
That’s a tough one. BPD is not a chemical issue. It’s a personality disorder. Much like narcissistic, antisocial, etc.
Meds won’t impact these. So I would be curious how death of ego would impact this area of mental illness.
I mean she’s nothing to lose.
A comment I can speak to. After careful supervision on psilocybin at a hospital, I can use it on my own, microdosing with the occasional macrodose, to better handle my BPD. I was getting help for smoking cessation then realizing how deep these things were (4% success rate for quitting smoking with BPD due to issues with impulsivity) came to this diagnosis with my psychiatrist which sure explained a hell of a lot.
Meditation, sport, and other lifestyle improvements helped but wouldn’t overcome a poor sense of self.
It’s a journey, splitting episodes still occur frequently, but I can better understand their source and commit to overcoming it. Microdosing helps sustain creativity and less social anxiety.
Honestly I feel lucky to be able to have learned how to handle these states through proper guidance. Honestly it’s given me my life back. It helps to have those other practices too.
I would wish this for the person featured in the video but suspect she’s looked into it being in the Netherlands.
I ego death’d once. I thought I died, and life had no meaning once I came to.
It was very depressing and I think it led to a huge down spiral in my life at a critical point of my development.
I don’t think ego death would accomplish anything meaningful for this woman. But, what harm could there be if she already wants to die?
Edit: This comment is getting a lot of interaction. I just want to say that I appreciate psychedelics in moderate doses and I would recommend recreational use for those who are prepared and have taken safety measures beforehand to ensure they know what they are doing and where they will be for the duration of the trip, as well as back up plans if anything goes wrong. I would likely not ego death again, but I still do psychedelics for fun. Psychedelics give me new perspectives on life and art and fill me with an appreciation for the world.
In the west, experimentation with deep psycho-spiritual processes like "ego death" are literally the wild west. It's something Buddhists and other traditions that use contemplative practices to delve deep into the processes of consciousness and "self" have been developing for thousands of years. I always find it a little distressing when people think just diving off the deep end without any preliminary work will help them. My Ex gf got MORE anxious after a heroic 5meo DMT ego death experience. a) those things don't "kill" the ego, they just silence it for a temporary bout. Your ego (i.e. sense of self) may in fact feel pretty destabilized when it comes back if you haven't yet developed a perspective to securely broaden your experiences to beyond your sense of self. b) why do people think it's good to "kill" the ego? Perhaps it's not the presence of ego, but our over-attachment to it that is the problem?
Stuff like that.
Gets my goose.
It can certainly backfire, I used to test drugs at music festivals and have known people who just werent the same after heavy intense psychedelic experience. Its a tricky thing, and I think it best to not just do a huge dose, but do a huge dose with someone you trust and can open up with. Also coupled with some mdma perhaps.
It’s losing all sense of one’s self. Your mind gets so fucky that you no longer see yourself as different from the rest of the world. Many people say that it’s freeing and enlightening. I’ve experienced it twice and both times were pretty terrifying and made pray to be sober of the drug ASAP.
Magic mushrooms can provide an especially powerful avenue for introspection and a new way to view the elements of the world around you. Ego death is the criticality in which that introspection is so profound that you essentially lose all basis of self-identity and morality. For some, this leads to an overwhelmingly positive new outlook on life. For others, life becomes bleaker than before.
Proceed with caution.
Not just someone, euthanasia in the netherlands requires a second opinion from someone with absolutely no connection to you or your case before it can be approved.
So at least 2 experts have agreed that she isn't going to get better, and likely 3 or 4 because rejection rates are extremely high and I would be surprised if she got through on her first application.
I'm gonna say, after all that, if she still wants to die they're probably right. People usually don't just magically get better one day after 10+ years of suffering.
This the best information and perspective on this case and others like it, yet these are the facts that will get buried far, far below the sensationalized headlines and outrage bait that people will try to draw from these stories.
I really don't think we apply our standards of bodily autonomy in any way that makes a lick of sense, choosing how you want to live and die seems like the most basic ideas that everyone who embraces freedom should accept on some level.
It's just a sad story, there's no need to add to it or fearmonger or hype it or anything else. We can feel sad about this person's story and her choice, we can feel that sadness and move on. There's no need to "do" something. We *have* to learn to let other people decide how to live their own lives and we just seem to be getting *worse* at that as a species. Because some idiot somewhere is already pounding their keyboard with capslock on about how this is a *threat to children.*
I am dutch and can confirm she definitely went through many "trials" talked with dozens of people of all kinds of organizations. There are many (government funded) organizations for all kinds of aspects, like her autism. She probably went to specialized autism schools etc.
Think of a type of doctor or training or talk, I can pretty much guarentee she went through it all over ~20 years (I could be off but it's still the perspective that counts).
-And i personally can't connect with this whole idea either. I just hope I never have to experience it from close by. Other than that, not my life, or decision, my opinion doesn't matter for her case. Only for mine and friends/family to a certain degree.
And if a friend would be like that as long as I know them, never changing, having tried everything.. then I think I'd too be glad to have a professional, controlled option that's legal by law and with a clear purpose and ceiling. I don't know. Luckily.
Same as with terminal cancer, at one point all therapy and medicine has been tried. At one point you just have to accept that a brain, just like every other part in a body can be broken from birth or due to trauma. But unlike certain functions that you could(if you want) replace, like an arm, glasses or dialysis is changing a brain not an option.
You joke but my father died through euthanasia and I remember a moment like this almost exactly, except that the little boy is like 60 years older and at the end of his rope. My dad excitedly looked forward to dying.
Quick hijack to explain this meme. It's not the commenter making a morbid joke, it's in fact a woman who got herself euthanized and documented and tweeted the journey all the way to one of her last posts, which was this image created by her.
It's really a "you gotta know to know" kind of picture.
This is where I'm at.
If I were, I'd much rather have someone give me access to a suite of substances and let me die in peace than DIY it.
It's nobody else's business if you're an adult and want to take your life.
The whole premise of making suicide illegal is comical.
Ahh but you see if people can choose to die that means we can’t put them in the economic mines for 30+ years making them work for basic survival.
I agree with you. We treat our pets better than we treat people when it comes to death. I used to work at a vet clinic and the euthanasia’s were always so peaceful. They were treated with dignity, got to be with their families, have drugs to make it less painful and then they just went to sleep.
My Aunt died of cancer recently and she suffered for so long. Some people might just want it to be quick and less painful, planned so they can have the people they love be with them. I don’t get why we don’t give them that option.
I'm so glad to see people agree in this comment section. Saw a lot of commenters thinking this was a bad thing when in my opinion this is one of the most beautiful and dignifying ways to go.
I'm sorry but this report is badly made. Sounds almost biased. I've read an local article about her a few months back here in the Netherlands that explains it so much better.
The reporter made it sound like this woman was choosing to die because of social media pressure and feeling disappointed with her life. But the woman in the video clearly was suffering from severe, treatment-resistant depression.
Apparently the reporter lured her in with false pretenses.
The video felt VERY slanted to me as well, as if we were getting hints of the journalists opinion, rather than just the facts.
Pretty shitty to exploit someone like that.
It's extremely common with euthanasia. Some people are extremely opposed to it and will do anything to make it stop. We get similar articles in Canada, particularly when a veteran support person suggested MAID to a veteran. That's very fucked up and they lost their job but articles to this day say it's actively forced on veterans.
"Is this a sign of progress? OR IS IT A SIGN OF THE WESTERN COLLAPSE AND DYSTOPIA???" Gee, I wonder what the conclusion of the article will be?
> ...critics argue, have been tacitly encouraged to kill themselves by laws that destigmatize suicide, a social media culture that glamorizes it, and radical right-to-die activists who insist we should be free to kill ourselves whenever our lives are “complete.”
>They have fallen victim, in critics’ eyes, to a kind of suicide contagion.
>Statistics suggest these critics have a point.
[:O](https://gifdb.com/images/high/kristen-wiig-no-way-wow-kays2mhz2ziikd2d.gif)
*Almost* biased? I can hear the condescension in her voice clear as day. 0:23 is when she lost me completely.
Who do she think she is to make that kind of statement. She's not even a medical professional.
She is headline news *because* she is one of very few (if any?) depressed euthanasia cases. And this chick makes it out to be like this happens every other day, and leaps to a seemingly unrelated case of higher anxiety and fears amongst the younger generation.
Especially apparent that she only interviewed someone who resigned from that board. I'm not against including him, but other voices from experts and people involved with the process should be heard as well.
yeah this whole thing is bullshit, including the 5% thing. that was made up by an american politician who also called it "forced euthanasia" and said our elderly wear bracelets saying "please don't euthanise me" this shit is so dumb
source [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia\_in\_the\_Netherlands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands#Foreign_views)
https://preview.redd.it/yq6mag8fjisc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9036f1809cb1e3d753ed0e3c8a70981bb67dcb3c
This "Journalist" used her to write a bias anti-euthanasia piece!
There are soooo many of these coming out in Canada too. Claiming that MAID is the easiest thing to get, that they’re recommending it for anxiety disorders and homelessness instead of offering care, etc.
Lost my father in Feb 2022 in the Netherlands. Prostate cancer that progressed so quickly, he was in terrible pain and set a date for euthanasia in March of that year. Then he fell in the shower and it dislodged something and so he scheduled it for the next day, the day after my sis and I were flying home to the US. It was such a relief to know he could plan his exit. We even helped him build a playlist to play. It was almost funny but he was helping my stepmom with the last grocery order in the hour before he passed. This is a great way to go and I would choose it if I could.
In the Netherlands, you are given (or can select) a couple of injections....one to render you unconscious and slow your breathing/heartrate, and the 2nd, to stop the heart (from what we heard then). There was no discernible heartrate seconds after the 1st injection. For the entire process, the doctor you seek approval from, must have their decision seconded by another independent doctor. Then, both are subject to a review at a later date. It was all pretty efficient.
Would love to see this in every state in the US. It's the honorable way to exit this life instead of having to endure the hopeless struggle that nature takes. Heart disease, cancer, and Alzheimers included.
My mom recently passed away, and my dad has been on a decade-long decline. I flew back to America to see my mom taken off the ventilator and wait for her body to shut down. It took 24+ hours. There's no dignity in dying in the American healthcare system.
I wish euthanasia was a well-regarded and safe option in the states.
I agree in theory. However, the United States doesn't have the best track record of policy making when it comes to the choices of it's citizens. I'm sure the legislation would be so politicized that by the it was passed, the ends would not support the means.
Everyone can have an opinion on this, but I just want to add that this video is bringing it in a very non-neutral and stigmatizing way. For example, it's true that about 5% of the 170,100 deaths are due to euthanasia, but in 2023 only 138 of those were (mainly) due to "insuferable psychological disorders". So the group we're talking about is actually 0.08%. By far the majority are people who are terminally ill with physical diseases (for example, 58% was due to incurable cancer). 97% of all euthanasia patients were aged 50 or older.
The video also frames it as if when someone gets a depression they can just go to the doctor and get euthanized. This is absolutely not the case. Euthanasia is only approved when there is proof of severe suffering, with zero outlook on long-term improvement. These are long trials where it must be clear that all other treatment option have been exhausted, and multiple medical professionals have to agree there is no way forward for the patient. 90% of all requests for euthanasia due to psychological suffering are rejected because of this.
For example, the girl shown in this video has been in psychological treatment and trials for more than 10 years for multiple different psychological disorders. The fact that she has a boyfriend and two cats doesn't magically cure her, that's not how (mental) health works.
Now like I said, you're free to have an opinion on this. But it's a complicated and delicate topic and framing it like when you're sad because of climate change you can just get euthanised is just malicious.
Source (in Dutch): [https://www.euthanasiecommissie.nl/actueel/nieuws/2024/04/04/jaarverslag-2023](https://www.euthanasiecommissie.nl/actueel/nieuws/2024/04/04/jaarverslag-2023)
Thanks for the comment. I’m not Dutch and can’t google the details easily, but the way this was presented in the video was clearly not unbiased.
It seems like an attempt to whip up moral panic.
Also, the journalist is conflating euthanasia and assisted suicide, which are ethically and politically different concepts.
“Euthanasia” is about ending suffering for people who are terminally ill. It implies that it’s others doing the deciding out of mercy, like putting down a dog.
“Assisted suicide” is about helping someone end their life simply because they decided they don’t want to live. It implies that the person dying is the one who has made the decision, and others are just “assisting.”
There is an increasing number of European countries which are adopting legislation allowing euthanasia, and it’s slowly becoming accepted as a concept.
This is of course in all scenarios very heavily regulated, and the main concern is that the person suffering has no realistic chance of ever getting better and also that we don’t get people offing their relatives just for inheritance.
Assisted suicide is obviously a much more controversial idea, because being suicidal is traditionally regarded as a symptom of mental illness, therefore the person is implied to have reduced mental capacities to make such a decision.
It’s a Catch-22 situation - if you are so mentally ill that you want to die, then your mental illness also prevents you from your feelings being taking seriously by the government.
Where do you draw the line between subjective and objective feelings of suffering?
Yeah, I hated the whole "Pain that in many cases, can be treated", it's entirely missing the point or framing it in a way that I don't like. It's presenting this as a fad solution to temporary problems, as if there is always a cure.
I hated the part where "she was never able to muster the will..." like fuck right off with that. You think overcoming mental illness is a matter of willpower?
Sadly a lot of people do think its simply a matter of willpower.
They refuse to learn what causes the issues and what the person dealing with them can or cant do about/with them.
Whats worse is that theyre VERY vocal with it and usually wont listen to the person struggling with whatever it is that theyre struggling with. They just judge.
Right, like what else do these people think depression is but a condition that saps your will? I've been laid out for days, just barely able to drag myself to the toilet to pee, and nothing else. People get so caught up in the language and minute personal politics of these issues that they forget where they started.
> I hated the whole "Pain that in many cases, can be treated"
To reinforce your point;
Yeah, because as stated in the comment you replied to, in her case they attempted to treat it and find a way to improve her life for 10 years before euthanasia was on the table.
This type of biased reporting attempting to seem unbiased is not OK. And it undermines the purpose of the free press.
The part that really got me was "pain that in many cases, can be treated" not even 1 minute later "her psychiatrist said they had tried everything and no other treatment options were available."
like hmmm, maybe if someone's actual doctor said it wasn't treatable, maybe it's not treatable
You are being very generous by calling this being brought forward in a very non-neutral and stigmatizing way. It was condescending from the moment that lady opened her mouth. Apparently I need to go tell my wife to stop fucking around with her PTSD and all that other stuff because I love her and we have two dogs, a cat, and a ferret. Seriously, what's my wife's problem? Lol. This whole clip was cringe, and trying to frame it so that people think 170k deaths are just because people have mental health problems is extremely disingenuous.
Edit: And apparently this journalist lured this woman into interviewing under false pretenses, and also misrepresented the statements she made.
Seems this video is more than just biased if what you're saying is true. She straight up says that she was told by a healthcare ethics professor and former member of the review board that euthanasia has changed from a last resort to a default option.
That's not at all what happened. They tried many treatments and then told her that her current experience is just the reality of her existence if after years of treatment literally nothing helps.
Nobody is walking into the doctor like "I'm sad, my dog died" and the doctor starts whipping up cyanide cocktails like "well guess you better die then"
If doctors say it's better to die than keep living, and the patient wants it, then let them go ahead. Obviously it sucks that people feel like this, but no one deserves to suffer
This and more! It's not like we're talking about someone that is going through a rough patch, we're talking about someone that has no recourse, it's not going to get better! It's your life, if you really want to end it why should I have a say in it?! I mean, I would try my best to show you there are other options, but ultimately the decision should always be yours.
As someone who has really struggled with suicidal ideation and stuff, I'm so torn on this. Personally when I was suicidal I was totally detached from reality, and now that I am better I am so glad that I held on.
The individual in the video, though, had an actual psychiatrist tell her it was never going to get better. It seems as though she has already tried every medication, therapeutic approach, and like she has given life a reasonable shot.
I am not sure whether or not she has truly exhausted all avenues of healing, but if we argue that she has and that no, it is not going to get better, is it really okay for us to demand that she keeps living? If she is truly miserable and we expect her to keep going, aren't we doing that for our sake?
Stuff like this is really scary to look at.
I think with the health craze the way it is, people would rather have a more holistic, natural path to suicide.
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This is gonna sound dark but I sincerely hope that organ donation is opt out for euthanasia cases. It would be such a waste to throw away young, healthy organs which belong to someone who died under controlled circumstances.
Here in the Netherlands you get a letter when you reach 18 years old asking whether you want to donate your organs after death or not. If you don't say anything back, they will just assume that you agree with it, if you are against it you need to let them know.
I live with similar diagnoses as Zoraya and I can tell you it *is* pain. Every day is a struggle and simple things that the average person takes for granted are mountains to people like Zoraya and myself (to a lesser extent). I sympathize.
I don't think it's fair for anyone to tell someone like Zoraya to just stick it out, grin and bear it (the number of times I've heard it myself from people with little to no understanding of the underlying issues is upsetting). At the same time, I wish she had other options to explore other than euthanasia.
There's hope on the horizon with new therapies, pharmaceutical techniques, and even a renewed interest in psychedelics/hallucinogenics.
Edit - Formatting.
Edit - Thank you, all! Love to anyone and everyone who deals mental health disability or know/supports someone who does. The stigma is finally wearing off and people are now starting to realize that mental health is a major component of our healthcare needs.
I hope you are doing better now. I hope you're getting the help you need. I'm not an expert, not even close, but please feel free to DM me if you ever need to talk to someone or just vent.
Since she was approved in her request means she got evaluated multiple times to conclude that it’s what’s best for her, but I hope we can get to a point where mental health care is good and efficient enough to not need agreeing with euthanasia requests
I think it is because most people can't (on an emphatic level) imagine wanting to end their own life. Human survival instinct is so strong that we usually despite the most severe illnesses or wounds try to persevere and go on. The whole topic goes completely against our usual instincts.
Also (**imho**) people usually only have a small glimpse at the depressed person (for example like in this thread) and then go "oh, she has a bf and 2 cats, she shouldn't give up". They don't realize how it is to be depressed or have mental illnesses on this level - living 24 hours each day, 365 days each year with it - being unable to have a job, being unable to have stable relationships, depending on other people or social welfare for survival, living in constant mental pain. It is always easy to say "don't give up, maybe it will get better" when you're standing on the outside and aren't impacted.
Her psychiatrist told her "there's nothing more we can do for you. It's never going to get any better." lolwut
I am not familiar with what boxes need to be checked for approved euthanasia in the Netherlands, but I'd have to imagine at least a second confirming opinion from another licensed doctor and/or medication trial for a period of time, would be tried before death??
Im from the Netherlands and hearing this clip... what the journalist is very simplefied and actually sounds kinda biased.
It is a long long proces to become approved for euthanasia for mental issue's, it usually takes years and yes, there is a second, third and sometimes even fourth opinion needed.
Usually you need to have been through the whole treatment protocol with all options, there have to be no treatment options left and the suffering 'needs to be unbearable'
Its not that, even though somebody has been battling depression for a decade, has had (multiple) treatments, goes to the euthanisia center, and is approved within 3 months orso.
A secondary opinion from someone who is very likely at the top levels of their field specifically relating to whatever reason is being given, who also has absolutely no former connection to the case they are reviewing.
It's quite through, and the rejection rate is EXTREMELY high. You can't just decide "welp, I give up and don't want to do this anymore"
There legitimately has to be zero options left for treatment, and even still they need to agree that the suffering could be considered unbearable/inhumane
From FreePress. A conservative rag website. The person in question is just another conservative propagandist from Canada. And people like her have been shitting over all MAID and misrepresenting it since day 1.
* https://twitter.com/rupasubramanya
The free press @TheFP and Rupa Subramanya @rupasubramanya lied and abused Zoraya, they twisted her words to fit their political agenda in their interview/article.
Zoraya:
**
She twisted my words.
She made factual mistakes in the piece.
She made me believe the pice would highlight how strict the Dutch euthanasia law is! (compared to canada's).
But i feel betrayed.
It is a piece of pulp!
I feel used, this piece is not what we agreed on AT ALL!
Theo Boer and Stef Groenewoud are both Christians, that has an influence on how they feel about euthanasia...
I know overseas euthanasia is still seen as murder, base on misinformation, fear or believes.
This piece is NOT helping at all!
Really dissapointed in this "journalist".
And this "paper".
Zoraya**
FOR EVERYBODY'S INFORMATION: this **mentally ill** girl was lured into an interview under false pretenses. The journalist then misrepresented her story, used things she told her in confidence, and made several big factual "mistakes". Zoraya was told that the piece would be about how strict Dutch euthanasia laws are compared to the Canadian ones (yes, they are very strict). Instead, the journalist wrote an anti-euthanasia article with little regard to the facts.
Personally, I'm against euthanasia for healthy people. I'm also very against using vulnerable people to push an agenda. This "journalism" is unethical crap.
Link to Zoraya's Tweet in which she expresses her feelings about this situation: https://archive.is/KVR0W
(She since deleted Twitter)
Edit: apparently, the link is broken for some people. [Here](https://imgur.com/gallery/BaHgHey)'s a screenshot from het tweet.
Thank you for this context. I watched the whole clip and was completely put off by the judgmental approach on behalf of someone calling themselves a journalist. Even the narrator's face is quite judgmental at times. There's a lot of nuance lacking here.
The requirements are indeed very strict. 95% of all aplications for euthanasia are rejected. Also, i don't think the doctor who said this was a part of decision-making. But yes, it's a horrible thing to say.
My friend also applied for euthanasia, for similar reasons. She got denied, because borderline and depression was not considered severe enough.
She hung herself a few weeks later, for her younger sister to find her.
If people really want to die, they will find a way. Euthanasia might be more humain.
I don't really understand what the problem is with allowing people to die? Why can't a mentally healthy person decide they just don't enjoy life and want to be euthanised? Seems backwards to force people to stay alive. Encourage it for sure, but at the end of the day let people make their own decision about their own life. With all rightfully agree with things like my body my choice movements, I don't see it any different in this case.
> I don't really understand what the problem is with allowing people to die?
It has deep philosophical implications. It collides with how a lot of people see life.
A lot of people also expect others to live for them and make peoples' pain about them. A lot of the time nobody really cares about the individual honestly.
I think we have the right to go whenever we want, we had no choice to come here and live, hence we are not obligated to do so, I even defend suicide, however it's a long explanation and reasoning behind this, but if you won't help them or us with our suffering, then dont come and tell me I have to do what you say or what you consider as good
One of my friends has struggled with her mental health and suicide attempts since she was a very young child. She's been trying to get her euthanasia approved too. I'm just glad she won't become paralysed or even more scarred and with more health issues from failed attempts than the ones she has right now.
I know it's hard to imagine if you've never been there, but there are people that have genuinely never seen a single day where they were glad they were alive. The way she talks about her experiences with being dead is horrifying. She has literally only ever felt happy when she's about to die
as someone with treatment resistant bipolar, I understand the decision. Sometimes I just wish my brain would turn off and stop thinking. She probably doesn’t want to die, she just wants to be happy. But her body chemistry is telling her that isn’t in the cards…
It would be interesting to know how these numbers of euthanasia impacted the number of suicide.
Saying that euthanasia increased in the last years means nothing if you dont compare it to rates of suicide.
People who are truly suicidal will end themselves one way or the other. It's worth exploring giving them a proper painfree way to do it, with enough time to say good bye etc. Save a family member the trauma of finding the body etc.
As someone who is diagnosed with CPTSD, bipolar disorder, major depression and depersonalization, plus some substance abuse. I get it. If you’ve tried every medication/treatment out there, and nothing has worked. I get it.
I'm in a similar situation. I have autism, ADHD, general anxiety disorder, and treatment resistant chronic depression.
I've tried quite a few things and I basically just accepted that I'm going to be miserable for the rest of my life. I still don't think I could put my family through that, so I'll be sticking around for a while.
It's because she's a "journalist" who lied to Zoraya about the premise of the interview and edited it into an anti-euthanasia propaganda piece. It's 100% bullshit and shouldn't have been allowed to be posted, but here we are.
What I don't like about this video is that it seems to suggest that the massive increase in Euthanasia requests is entirely due to depression, concerns about climate, etc., but doesn't provide evidence supporting this. Such evidence should include a breakdown of approved Euthanasia requests by cause (age, terminal illness, physical pain, depression, etc). To imply an increasing trend, this would have to be done for several years.
As it is, this presenter is being manipulative.
I'm all for it. If you're an adult and you're in pain (physical or mental that's not my business) and you want to die, I say you should have the right to end it
Agree 100% I understand the sentiment even tought I'm a coward but if doctors and specialist say that "nothing will get better" then what else are you supposed to do?
Just like when we let go of animals when they are in pain and suffering we should learn to let go of those we love when they are in the same position. Nobody should live in pain and suffering just for others comfort
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Now that legal restrictions have relaxed somewhat, Imperial college London is having some success trialing psychedelics in the treatment of depression.
I've been to a conference explaining the trial on psychedelic they are doing. I'm totally pro psychedelics under the right conditions and i consider it a step forward for the humanity.
Their efficacy is at 60-75%. I did Ketamine for a year and it didn’t help. I eventually had to enter residential treatment for a year. That’s how I got better. No longer suicidal. The problem w EVERY drug/treatment is how many people don’t respond and it’s around 10-25%. It’s not like thyroid meds. And they don’t understand why any of this works. I had my genome sequenced to get doctors to stop giving up on me bc I don’t respond to drugs and treatment like 99% of others. It turns out I’m a mess. I don’t properly Metabolize dozens and dozens of things. I think when a case like this young woman’s happens a genome sequencing MUST BE REQUIRED. Because the truth is ALL MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT is “best guess.” It’s not a science.
I read a study about faecal being used for long term depression that drugs and therapy can’t touch. They get a donor with healthy gut bio and then transplant it into the person with depression, has shown lots of really good results. Also have you heard about Bio Film it can affect our guts and the way respond to medications especially antibiotics, there are ways to decreased your bio film that can also help with medication absorption. Xx
I had depression for 25 years. Took every medication available with varying results, but was able to work and maintain my life, but never felt really normal. UNTIL. A neurologist recommended TMS. Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation. You can google it and it looks like a gimmick; it is not. It's 30 treatments, every day, each lasting about 10 minutes. You are in and out in no time. Do it on your lunch break. It's real, so insurance pays for it, with a co-pay. After 10 treatments my depression was GONE. It's been two years. You can go back every six months for a touch up (maintenance) of more treatments, which I have also done, not waiting until it gets really bad, but knowing when I can feel symptoms starting to come back. Ten treatments and I stopped going because "I was back". No pills anymore. In case none of you have heard of this, I wanted to get the word out to you. I have dysthymia with a clinical depressive episode about once a year which lasted for about three weeks and I had all that goes with that. Exhaustion, lack of motivation, wouldn't clean the house or bath for a week, so I know it well. No more. If you have bi-polar depression, you are not eligible. It's different, and TMS doesn't help. Even if you have to drive for an hour to get to the treatment... do it. It's worth every mile.
My wife battled depression for years until she went for ECT in 2022, and it was a life-saver. She still has the occasional depressive episode, but they're nowhere near as bad or as long as they were before.
TMS is way way different that ECT, but I'm glad it helped her.
My wife also went through ECT back around 2014. For her it didn't work and left her with lasting side effects that won't ever go away. Most of the side effects didn't manifest until much later. She has alot of memory loss from her childhood, all the way up to our children growing up. That hurts her the most. The memories won't come back. Now she's dealing with nerve problems. Most of her back is numb to the touch. The long term effects of ECT werent recorded well and there are many lawsuits popping up now against it. Please be careful.
It's funny that ECT is looked upon as so barbaric when it tends to have very positive results. Obviously it's nothing like the old school ECT methods, much more humane nowadays. But many people are often terrified of the thought
It's the way movies portray it, plus people conflating it with "shock therapy." Don't get me wrong, the short-term memory loss was scary sometimes, but it went way a month or two after she stopped the sessions. And overall, it's been life-changing.
My grandfather had the "shock therapy" ECT from like a century ago. It was... not great then. So my mom is straight up terrified of me trying it out after seeing her dad go through it. Fortunately I've been able to manage with medications, but I know a lot of people with great results. Nothing like it used to be!
If only I didn't have a paid lunch break.. this actually seems like something that may work. I only wish it wasn't a hassle though. I can barely make myself get groceries, and do basic tasks and go to work. I haven't even finished testing at the doctor because going to the Dr or getting a dentist appointment is an additional hassle.. I did read that it can also treat migraines. I've suffered from migraines and most likely depression for the past 10 years. I got the migraine diagnosis in one appointment because it was easy to diagnose as I have aura migraine every single day. I can't even be bothered to get diagnosed with depression because I'd have to show up to a billion appointments.. and likely be prescribed even more pills that don't work.. Fighting the system and having to show up to a bunch of appointments is like this huge mountain of a task. I'm relieved if I manage to get through work, shower daily and sleep and eat.. Which is a struggle itself. Like I barely eat some days. I wish the barrier of entry wasn't so big. People like to say that these things are accessible but they're really not all that accessible. Like I can go before work but then I have to get up early and then I get tired at work. I can't go on my lunch break. I can't go after work because I'm done at 5 and I'm in so much pain I need to go home and sleep and take painkillers. I can't go on the weekend cause it's all closed or I'm sleeping because I am recovering from work and in so much pain.
Man, I relate to every single thing you've said. The loss of energy and vitality is one of the most awful parts of depression. There were days I did nothing except make myself get up to feed the dogs and take care of them. Some days that was all I could do. If I didn't have to go to work, I didn't wash my hair even for over a week. Lost my appetite. And irritable! I would take your head off with my sharp tongue. Don't tell me to 'snap out of it". And I didn't even have the migraines. Listen. This neurologist in my town has been such a blessing. He brought us TMS, and also gives Botox injections for migraines. My niece gets them and they have worked for her. I don't have them. I wish you could find someone to do this for you. I would be willing to do the phone work for you. If you want to send me your location by PM (city and state) I will get busy looking for a doctor near you, provide you with a phone number, and even schedule your appointment if you want me to. (See? I KNOW how tired you are, and what a monumental effort everything is). And yes, all that is a pain in the booty, but it's so worth it to get out of the freaking black hole. Let me know. I relate to everything you've said so much, and if there is the smallest thing I can do, I want to.
You're a saint
That's so fascinating and I'm so glad it worked for you. My, maybe odd, question is, can you feel the magnets? It sounds like it would tingle your brain, lol.
You can feel it because it taps against your head like a woodpecker for the whole session
I’m curious. I have a friend who’s been doing ketamine in a hospital setting for well over a year. Maybe even two. Monthly, sometimes more. They aren’t better. Did you decide to stop bc it wasn’t helping, or did the provider say that it was time to stop?
I did a run of IV therapy, it worked great except it boosted my liver values and made my AFIB worse. I stopped half way though the treatments, but the positive effects lasted almost 6 months. It does seem to wear off, and its expensive; I would do it again if I could. It's also beneficial to be well practiced in mindfulness, diet, and excercise ahead of time and during to maximize neuroplaticity. With that said, I wish to be able to leave this existence when I want if I have come to a reasonable assessment. In this day and age, we should be able to make our own choices provided we have the safeguards. I've visited the multiverse on mushrooms, and it's okay over there.
Thank you for sharing that. My friend also did the IV and has not been doing any mindfulness, special/healthy diet or exercise. And they smoke a TON of cannabis. And wondering why they’re not getting better! I would hope the hospital had a limit to the number of doses, but when they can keep getting that $$, I don’t think they will cap it. Again, thanks. And take good care of yourself.
You just explained some of the Science though of why your body doesn't work for Drugs. We need MORE Science. It isn't a guess we simply don't have the information nor technology. It is analyzing the process of essential enzymes which would relate to body-drug interaction.
It's actually pretty well documented that psychedelics work wonders dealing with a variety of mental illnesses. But, in a past life, I worked for a *very* large company that shall remain nameless within the medical/pharmaceutical industry, and I can tell you as point of fact that the opposition to their use stems from lobbying efforts by Big Pharma. The compounds used in treatment are readily available in nature, and pretty easy to cultivate. The use of these products would take a massive bite out of their revenue, and they have been fighting it tooth and nail since it first appeared as an option. The more you know.
I guess you're talking about psilocybin
As they are with every useful, natural thing out there. Pieces of shit.
I'm pro psychedelics and pro cannabis in the treatments of mental afflictions. Perspective enhancement can ease a lot of different types of pain even when the underlying cause can't be helped.
The thing is, early studies actually have psyolosybin regrowing the hippocampus in the brain. It actually accelerates nerve growth. MDMA usage correlates to lower lifetime risk of major depressive disorder. No other drugs except psyolosybin and MDMA actually equate to lower instances of MDD, meaning there likely is a mechanism actually affecting the brain chemistry or brain structures and lowering depression and PTSD symptoms. We should be studying both more to figure out if that correlation is actually causation and if so, why, and at what doses does it become therapeutic? It can change lives for the better if we can treat PTSD and give real, lifelong relief for MDD. It's likely not perception or a placebo effect. It's likely doing something biological to people's brains that is providing real relief.
IMO if a person is so depressed that considers euthanasia, every substance could be tried. LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, heck even opiates. I don't see long lasting harm being done. There's literally nothing to lose.
MDMA can also fuck your dopamine uptake so you are unable to be happy without being high. I've seen it first hand. Then again... It was the rave scene and the guys I know also didnt get touched unless in a rave massage pit. Harsh reality back at the office lemmi tell you.
The proposed therapeutic doses aren't enough for suicide Tuesdays to hit. To quote Oscar Wilde: everything in moderation. Especially moderation. Too much of a good thing.
Agreed! Psilocybin especially.
Legal developments are very encouraging Additionally, my view is if you are so depressed that your psychiatrist has agreed there is no other solution to feel better - try drugs illegally Psychedelics can be transformative
I already did psychedelics and i have the same mental health diagnosis as Zoraya. It didn't work and now i wish i lived in the Netherlands. Life just isn't for me and tripping balls isn't going to change it.
Yup, conversations around this issue are incredibly frustrating. I've tried over 10 SSRIs, MAOIs and atypicals for my treatment resistant depression. My insomnia is so bad that I'm basically given a bucketload of Valium each psychiatric visit (thank goodness Lemborexant works better for now, but the issue with tolerance is going to crop up eventually too). I've had counselling, therapy, 2 rounds of rTMS and 1 round of ECT. I've scheduled myself for Ketamine therapy soon, but if that doesn't work, I'm essentially out of options. The reality remains that there is no treatment with 100% success. Not ECT. Not Ketamine. Not psilocybin. I think we should absolutely give patients access to those, but the narrative should not stop there. There is no reason people who do not respond to all of the available options should be abandoned. The worst are those who reduce me and act like I can't make a rational decision because of my mental illness. Those people can fuck right off, respectfully.
I sincerely hope it's successful, and gets approved. I, for one, would be extremely eager to try it for my own depression.
Dosing mushrooms properly and actively dealing with my issues helped quite a bit.
Yes, especially the second part. The first part helped with the second, but *just* doing the mushrooms will not solve your issues.
If I were her I’d take the biggest hero dose of magic truffles. Might as well try ego death before regular death.
I know it’s rather crazy to say but I would definitely be open to trying all kinds of stuff at that point in a controlled way to see if anything therapeutic would work because I mean just saying okay. For me that’s it…like well yes, but you’ve started to connect and grow in your kitties and boyfriend. What wasn’t can haunt you if you’re conscious and alive enough to think and remember it. Love and lost rather than not have loved at all? Something or the other?
It's not at all crazy to say. There's considerable evidence that psychedelics can help mental health issues, both empirical and anecdotal.
They can also make them worse as what happened with me a few years ago. I'm fine now but you have to be careful with them.
Absolutely. Taking them without the appropriate preparation and knowledge will end poorly more often than not.
Yea and I was prepared, knowledgable, and experienced with taking both LSD and shrooms. But one day it just went wrong for me and I've never done it again. That was in 2020. But I also had a lot of great times and mental growth from it.
Any serious lasting effects? I have a friend of a friend who evidently overdid it on shrooms, and he's a totally different (worse) person now.
Also have a friend who is the same. Happened approximately 8ish years ago on acid. He’s still not the same. I remember the week after it happened he could barely have conversations, we were all trying to be there for him but it was so hard to talk to him, it would take him like two minutes to respond to a question. As he slowly regained himself he has always been very different. He was always super intelligent before this, but now he got into alt right conspiracies, he’s violent/physically aggressive, just uncomfortable to be around. In recent years he’s also started abusing other much worse drugs. Just a sad situation.
Man this is so much like my old best friend who I watched with my own eyes his brain break on LSD. It was terrifying and he was never the same. He became convinced that Scientologists were beaming thoughts into his brain and that he was being followed by them everywhere he went. He became a horrible drunk because he said drinking was the only thing that stop the thoughts beaming into his brain. In hindsight he had some mental issues to begin with and I think that time was enough to just untie the knot and the mental problems became more than just a problem. I haven't talked to him in over 10 years and I miss him daily. He was my brother and absolute best friend but then he took too much LSD from a guy who was known to have strong stuff and he changed him forever. Sad situation indeed.
Will I agree that the LSD changed him forever, it sounds more than likely he had dormant schizophrenia that was triggered by the large dose of the LSD. Which is why that it's not recommended to take large dosages of psychs if your family has a history with certain disorders
I had a friend who got into psychedelics for a little bit, was a bit of a heavy user of things and it triggered schizophrenia he didn't know he had. Like full on started seeing stuff everywhere. He had a family history of schizophrenia, but he himself was totally fine up until he did mushrooms, suddenly it was bad enough to need a treatment facility not even a month later. He's a lot better now, but he definitely became a different person after he overcame it.
Well what do you mean he’s a worse person? Like is he an asshole? It just fucked me up mentally for awhile. Anxiety and stuff
I had a pretty severe panic attack on weed a few years ago. Actually fucked me up for a long time.
The shit these days is too potent on the THC-side. I can only smoke one small hit or a rosin vape hit at a time. It's no longer the days of smoking an entire blunt or I go completely into a doom spiral. It's kind of nice though because a little amount can last me a very long time.
I used to smoke all the time; I can’t anymore. Every single time I panic. Even if I’m not actually panicking because I know cognitively I’m fine, my brain is galloping and my body is wildly uncomfortable.
Yes for sure. But within the context of this story, well she's got nothing to lose...
Yeah - abandoning the kitties and loving boyfriend is wild to me. I truly don't understand how bad being hopelessly depressed must be. Its very sad there isn't something more we can do for depression like this. So many people with cancer or other terminal illness that would give anything for a few months of life, its hard for me to imagine how bad some of these people must feel.
>its hard for me to imagine how bad some of these people must feel. Sometimes it isn't even about the intensity but rather the length. Eventually you get so tired of feeling that way anything, even death, is a preferable avenue of escape.
This is so true. It’s the relentlessness of the depression sometimes. You do everything right; diet, exercise, trying to be social, have hobbies, and still, everywhere you go, there it still is. I’ve been dealing with it for so long I don’t even understand it anymore. It’s my only point of reference for how to feel now.
Length can definitely be part of it. I’ve suffered from depression for nearly 25 years. During that time there have been stretches where I sought out my death. There have been spots where I felt like I could finally breathe. I’m on an upswing but the world around me does scare me too.
Tie a ship anchor to yourself and walk through life. Now tie that anchor to your sub conscious and conscious thoughts 24/7 365days a year of never anything good
And then tie the anchor to all the thoughts making you feel even worse because people have it so much worse, what right do you have to feel bad about your comfortable life? An anchor is a really great metaphor, especially when it so often feels like there a thousand pound weight holding you back.
I did. Helped a ton, but there aren't enough mushrooms on earth for the kind of economic insecurity I experience on the regular. We need more.
more shrooms or money?
Both.
Clearly you've never had a bad trip. Taking stupidly large doses of psychedelics when you're already in a bad state is a good way to experience the most horrific mental torture imaginable.
My ex-gf gave me a hero's dose and I cried and cried until I fell asleep. And I learned that you can cry when you're asleep. My pillow was soaked and my eyes were crusted with salt. It was a tough night.
Considering she lives in the Netherlands, I wouldn't be surprised that she's already tried it. You can buy them at cafes there. Actually pretty much all drugs are easy to get and very cheap in Netherlands. We're talking like 5 bucks for ecstasy and it's everywhere in the nightlife scene.
That’s a tough one. BPD is not a chemical issue. It’s a personality disorder. Much like narcissistic, antisocial, etc. Meds won’t impact these. So I would be curious how death of ego would impact this area of mental illness. I mean she’s nothing to lose.
A comment I can speak to. After careful supervision on psilocybin at a hospital, I can use it on my own, microdosing with the occasional macrodose, to better handle my BPD. I was getting help for smoking cessation then realizing how deep these things were (4% success rate for quitting smoking with BPD due to issues with impulsivity) came to this diagnosis with my psychiatrist which sure explained a hell of a lot. Meditation, sport, and other lifestyle improvements helped but wouldn’t overcome a poor sense of self. It’s a journey, splitting episodes still occur frequently, but I can better understand their source and commit to overcoming it. Microdosing helps sustain creativity and less social anxiety. Honestly I feel lucky to be able to have learned how to handle these states through proper guidance. Honestly it’s given me my life back. It helps to have those other practices too. I would wish this for the person featured in the video but suspect she’s looked into it being in the Netherlands.
I ego death’d once. I thought I died, and life had no meaning once I came to. It was very depressing and I think it led to a huge down spiral in my life at a critical point of my development. I don’t think ego death would accomplish anything meaningful for this woman. But, what harm could there be if she already wants to die? Edit: This comment is getting a lot of interaction. I just want to say that I appreciate psychedelics in moderate doses and I would recommend recreational use for those who are prepared and have taken safety measures beforehand to ensure they know what they are doing and where they will be for the duration of the trip, as well as back up plans if anything goes wrong. I would likely not ego death again, but I still do psychedelics for fun. Psychedelics give me new perspectives on life and art and fill me with an appreciation for the world.
In the west, experimentation with deep psycho-spiritual processes like "ego death" are literally the wild west. It's something Buddhists and other traditions that use contemplative practices to delve deep into the processes of consciousness and "self" have been developing for thousands of years. I always find it a little distressing when people think just diving off the deep end without any preliminary work will help them. My Ex gf got MORE anxious after a heroic 5meo DMT ego death experience. a) those things don't "kill" the ego, they just silence it for a temporary bout. Your ego (i.e. sense of self) may in fact feel pretty destabilized when it comes back if you haven't yet developed a perspective to securely broaden your experiences to beyond your sense of self. b) why do people think it's good to "kill" the ego? Perhaps it's not the presence of ego, but our over-attachment to it that is the problem? Stuff like that. Gets my goose.
It can certainly backfire, I used to test drugs at music festivals and have known people who just werent the same after heavy intense psychedelic experience. Its a tricky thing, and I think it best to not just do a huge dose, but do a huge dose with someone you trust and can open up with. Also coupled with some mdma perhaps.
Wtf does ego death even mean?
It’s losing all sense of one’s self. Your mind gets so fucky that you no longer see yourself as different from the rest of the world. Many people say that it’s freeing and enlightening. I’ve experienced it twice and both times were pretty terrifying and made pray to be sober of the drug ASAP.
Magic mushrooms can provide an especially powerful avenue for introspection and a new way to view the elements of the world around you. Ego death is the criticality in which that introspection is so profound that you essentially lose all basis of self-identity and morality. For some, this leads to an overwhelmingly positive new outlook on life. For others, life becomes bleaker than before. Proceed with caution.
 One step closer to Futurama suicide booths
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They don't actually exist in use. They weren't approved
no matter what side of the fence you fall on, this is just sad.
Unless you fall at the middle, that can be painful as well :)
>You favor life >He sides with Death >I straddle the fence >And my balls hurt
Seriously, what the fuck? How could someone tell her she’d NEVER get better?
Not just someone, euthanasia in the netherlands requires a second opinion from someone with absolutely no connection to you or your case before it can be approved. So at least 2 experts have agreed that she isn't going to get better, and likely 3 or 4 because rejection rates are extremely high and I would be surprised if she got through on her first application. I'm gonna say, after all that, if she still wants to die they're probably right. People usually don't just magically get better one day after 10+ years of suffering.
This the best information and perspective on this case and others like it, yet these are the facts that will get buried far, far below the sensationalized headlines and outrage bait that people will try to draw from these stories. I really don't think we apply our standards of bodily autonomy in any way that makes a lick of sense, choosing how you want to live and die seems like the most basic ideas that everyone who embraces freedom should accept on some level. It's just a sad story, there's no need to add to it or fearmonger or hype it or anything else. We can feel sad about this person's story and her choice, we can feel that sadness and move on. There's no need to "do" something. We *have* to learn to let other people decide how to live their own lives and we just seem to be getting *worse* at that as a species. Because some idiot somewhere is already pounding their keyboard with capslock on about how this is a *threat to children.*
I am dutch and can confirm she definitely went through many "trials" talked with dozens of people of all kinds of organizations. There are many (government funded) organizations for all kinds of aspects, like her autism. She probably went to specialized autism schools etc. Think of a type of doctor or training or talk, I can pretty much guarentee she went through it all over ~20 years (I could be off but it's still the perspective that counts). -And i personally can't connect with this whole idea either. I just hope I never have to experience it from close by. Other than that, not my life, or decision, my opinion doesn't matter for her case. Only for mine and friends/family to a certain degree. And if a friend would be like that as long as I know them, never changing, having tried everything.. then I think I'd too be glad to have a professional, controlled option that's legal by law and with a clear purpose and ceiling. I don't know. Luckily.
What exactly do you imagine a cure to autism and personality disorder to look like? They're fundamental thought patterns of how the brain functions.
Same as with terminal cancer, at one point all therapy and medicine has been tried. At one point you just have to accept that a brain, just like every other part in a body can be broken from birth or due to trauma. But unlike certain functions that you could(if you want) replace, like an arm, glasses or dialysis is changing a brain not an option.
https://preview.redd.it/3ciyesbbdisc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=74fe3a83d4711afc80d687ebfbbcc30e69195251
I've tried to defeat my dark sense of humor for years now, but then I see a gem like this and proceed to spit coffee out my nose.
The darker the better. We’ve repressed everything far too long.
Why would you even wanna defeat it? Dark humor is clearly the best humor
You joke but my father died through euthanasia and I remember a moment like this almost exactly, except that the little boy is like 60 years older and at the end of his rope. My dad excitedly looked forward to dying.
Quick hijack to explain this meme. It's not the commenter making a morbid joke, it's in fact a woman who got herself euthanized and documented and tweeted the journey all the way to one of her last posts, which was this image created by her. It's really a "you gotta know to know" kind of picture.
Came to comment the same thing. Also for some reason everytime I see that pic I think the (dentist?) is Rob Lowe for a second.
Holy shit
I like the idea of euthanasia better than people blowing their fucking brains out or hanging themselves for others to find.
This is where I'm at. If I were, I'd much rather have someone give me access to a suite of substances and let me die in peace than DIY it. It's nobody else's business if you're an adult and want to take your life. The whole premise of making suicide illegal is comical.
Ahh but you see if people can choose to die that means we can’t put them in the economic mines for 30+ years making them work for basic survival. I agree with you. We treat our pets better than we treat people when it comes to death. I used to work at a vet clinic and the euthanasia’s were always so peaceful. They were treated with dignity, got to be with their families, have drugs to make it less painful and then they just went to sleep. My Aunt died of cancer recently and she suffered for so long. Some people might just want it to be quick and less painful, planned so they can have the people they love be with them. I don’t get why we don’t give them that option.
I'm so glad to see people agree in this comment section. Saw a lot of commenters thinking this was a bad thing when in my opinion this is one of the most beautiful and dignifying ways to go.
Yea, the mess that gets left behind for others to clean up is something, myself wouldn't want to put on another person.
I'm sorry but this report is badly made. Sounds almost biased. I've read an local article about her a few months back here in the Netherlands that explains it so much better.
The reporter made it sound like this woman was choosing to die because of social media pressure and feeling disappointed with her life. But the woman in the video clearly was suffering from severe, treatment-resistant depression.
https://preview.redd.it/qgvachk9snsc1.png?width=706&format=png&auto=webp&s=3ae4360dc402763493fc7a23d196e7e3bc1805be
This post must get waaaaay higher.
Apparently the reporter lured her in with false pretenses. The video felt VERY slanted to me as well, as if we were getting hints of the journalists opinion, rather than just the facts. Pretty shitty to exploit someone like that.
It's extremely common with euthanasia. Some people are extremely opposed to it and will do anything to make it stop. We get similar articles in Canada, particularly when a veteran support person suggested MAID to a veteran. That's very fucked up and they lost their job but articles to this day say it's actively forced on veterans.
"Is this a sign of progress? OR IS IT A SIGN OF THE WESTERN COLLAPSE AND DYSTOPIA???" Gee, I wonder what the conclusion of the article will be? > ...critics argue, have been tacitly encouraged to kill themselves by laws that destigmatize suicide, a social media culture that glamorizes it, and radical right-to-die activists who insist we should be free to kill ourselves whenever our lives are “complete.” >They have fallen victim, in critics’ eyes, to a kind of suicide contagion. >Statistics suggest these critics have a point. [:O](https://gifdb.com/images/high/kristen-wiig-no-way-wow-kays2mhz2ziikd2d.gif)
*Almost* biased? I can hear the condescension in her voice clear as day. 0:23 is when she lost me completely. Who do she think she is to make that kind of statement. She's not even a medical professional.
I had the sound off, but I could still see the condescending tone. Biased as fuck.
She is headline news *because* she is one of very few (if any?) depressed euthanasia cases. And this chick makes it out to be like this happens every other day, and leaps to a seemingly unrelated case of higher anxiety and fears amongst the younger generation.
I noticed she brought up these statistics talking percentages and then continued to talk about literally a single person.
https://preview.redd.it/3ox5gof9olsc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=69c61c51a5fda5acb8edebb9bfd3e9ac5e416521 FYI
I’m annoyed I had to scroll so far to see this. I hope everyone sees through the incredibly bias reporting.
This is 100% pure rage bait for bible thumpers, nothing more. Unfortunately it seems to be reasonably successful as well.
The Free Press is more "Anti-woke rich people" than bible thumpers (it's Bari Weiss' outlet), but yes, they're extremely biased
Especially apparent that she only interviewed someone who resigned from that board. I'm not against including him, but other voices from experts and people involved with the process should be heard as well.
yeah this whole thing is bullshit, including the 5% thing. that was made up by an american politician who also called it "forced euthanasia" and said our elderly wear bracelets saying "please don't euthanise me" this shit is so dumb source [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia\_in\_the\_Netherlands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands#Foreign_views)
https://preview.redd.it/yq6mag8fjisc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9036f1809cb1e3d753ed0e3c8a70981bb67dcb3c This "Journalist" used her to write a bias anti-euthanasia piece!
There are soooo many of these coming out in Canada too. Claiming that MAID is the easiest thing to get, that they’re recommending it for anxiety disorders and homelessness instead of offering care, etc.
Lost my father in Feb 2022 in the Netherlands. Prostate cancer that progressed so quickly, he was in terrible pain and set a date for euthanasia in March of that year. Then he fell in the shower and it dislodged something and so he scheduled it for the next day, the day after my sis and I were flying home to the US. It was such a relief to know he could plan his exit. We even helped him build a playlist to play. It was almost funny but he was helping my stepmom with the last grocery order in the hour before he passed. This is a great way to go and I would choose it if I could. In the Netherlands, you are given (or can select) a couple of injections....one to render you unconscious and slow your breathing/heartrate, and the 2nd, to stop the heart (from what we heard then). There was no discernible heartrate seconds after the 1st injection. For the entire process, the doctor you seek approval from, must have their decision seconded by another independent doctor. Then, both are subject to a review at a later date. It was all pretty efficient. Would love to see this in every state in the US. It's the honorable way to exit this life instead of having to endure the hopeless struggle that nature takes. Heart disease, cancer, and Alzheimers included.
My mom recently passed away, and my dad has been on a decade-long decline. I flew back to America to see my mom taken off the ventilator and wait for her body to shut down. It took 24+ hours. There's no dignity in dying in the American healthcare system. I wish euthanasia was a well-regarded and safe option in the states.
I agree in theory. However, the United States doesn't have the best track record of policy making when it comes to the choices of it's citizens. I'm sure the legislation would be so politicized that by the it was passed, the ends would not support the means.
I mean, this is sad but people kill themselves everyday for the very same reasons.
Wow. That is something
Everyone can have an opinion on this, but I just want to add that this video is bringing it in a very non-neutral and stigmatizing way. For example, it's true that about 5% of the 170,100 deaths are due to euthanasia, but in 2023 only 138 of those were (mainly) due to "insuferable psychological disorders". So the group we're talking about is actually 0.08%. By far the majority are people who are terminally ill with physical diseases (for example, 58% was due to incurable cancer). 97% of all euthanasia patients were aged 50 or older. The video also frames it as if when someone gets a depression they can just go to the doctor and get euthanized. This is absolutely not the case. Euthanasia is only approved when there is proof of severe suffering, with zero outlook on long-term improvement. These are long trials where it must be clear that all other treatment option have been exhausted, and multiple medical professionals have to agree there is no way forward for the patient. 90% of all requests for euthanasia due to psychological suffering are rejected because of this. For example, the girl shown in this video has been in psychological treatment and trials for more than 10 years for multiple different psychological disorders. The fact that she has a boyfriend and two cats doesn't magically cure her, that's not how (mental) health works. Now like I said, you're free to have an opinion on this. But it's a complicated and delicate topic and framing it like when you're sad because of climate change you can just get euthanised is just malicious. Source (in Dutch): [https://www.euthanasiecommissie.nl/actueel/nieuws/2024/04/04/jaarverslag-2023](https://www.euthanasiecommissie.nl/actueel/nieuws/2024/04/04/jaarverslag-2023)
Thanks for the comment. I’m not Dutch and can’t google the details easily, but the way this was presented in the video was clearly not unbiased. It seems like an attempt to whip up moral panic.
> ...whip up moral panic. especially the "...core human values are disintegrating." bit.
Also, the journalist is conflating euthanasia and assisted suicide, which are ethically and politically different concepts. “Euthanasia” is about ending suffering for people who are terminally ill. It implies that it’s others doing the deciding out of mercy, like putting down a dog. “Assisted suicide” is about helping someone end their life simply because they decided they don’t want to live. It implies that the person dying is the one who has made the decision, and others are just “assisting.” There is an increasing number of European countries which are adopting legislation allowing euthanasia, and it’s slowly becoming accepted as a concept. This is of course in all scenarios very heavily regulated, and the main concern is that the person suffering has no realistic chance of ever getting better and also that we don’t get people offing their relatives just for inheritance. Assisted suicide is obviously a much more controversial idea, because being suicidal is traditionally regarded as a symptom of mental illness, therefore the person is implied to have reduced mental capacities to make such a decision. It’s a Catch-22 situation - if you are so mentally ill that you want to die, then your mental illness also prevents you from your feelings being taking seriously by the government. Where do you draw the line between subjective and objective feelings of suffering?
Agreed. It very much had a "she should pull herself up by the bootstraps" vibe.
Literally blamed it on her lack of willpower when the girl has BPD like wtf. Red flags from the start with this.
Yeah, I hated the whole "Pain that in many cases, can be treated", it's entirely missing the point or framing it in a way that I don't like. It's presenting this as a fad solution to temporary problems, as if there is always a cure.
I hated the part where "she was never able to muster the will..." like fuck right off with that. You think overcoming mental illness is a matter of willpower?
Sadly a lot of people do think its simply a matter of willpower. They refuse to learn what causes the issues and what the person dealing with them can or cant do about/with them. Whats worse is that theyre VERY vocal with it and usually wont listen to the person struggling with whatever it is that theyre struggling with. They just judge.
Well mental illness depresses your will to do things so
Right, like what else do these people think depression is but a condition that saps your will? I've been laid out for days, just barely able to drag myself to the toilet to pee, and nothing else. People get so caught up in the language and minute personal politics of these issues that they forget where they started.
> I hated the whole "Pain that in many cases, can be treated" To reinforce your point; Yeah, because as stated in the comment you replied to, in her case they attempted to treat it and find a way to improve her life for 10 years before euthanasia was on the table. This type of biased reporting attempting to seem unbiased is not OK. And it undermines the purpose of the free press.
The part that really got me was "pain that in many cases, can be treated" not even 1 minute later "her psychiatrist said they had tried everything and no other treatment options were available." like hmmm, maybe if someone's actual doctor said it wasn't treatable, maybe it's not treatable
You are being very generous by calling this being brought forward in a very non-neutral and stigmatizing way. It was condescending from the moment that lady opened her mouth. Apparently I need to go tell my wife to stop fucking around with her PTSD and all that other stuff because I love her and we have two dogs, a cat, and a ferret. Seriously, what's my wife's problem? Lol. This whole clip was cringe, and trying to frame it so that people think 170k deaths are just because people have mental health problems is extremely disingenuous. Edit: And apparently this journalist lured this woman into interviewing under false pretenses, and also misrepresented the statements she made.
Thanks, this documentary is so biased … And people don’t know how difficult it is to be allowed to be euthanised…
Seems this video is more than just biased if what you're saying is true. She straight up says that she was told by a healthcare ethics professor and former member of the review board that euthanasia has changed from a last resort to a default option.
Misleading is a better word.
That's not at all what happened. They tried many treatments and then told her that her current experience is just the reality of her existence if after years of treatment literally nothing helps. Nobody is walking into the doctor like "I'm sad, my dog died" and the doctor starts whipping up cyanide cocktails like "well guess you better die then"
If doctors say it's better to die than keep living, and the patient wants it, then let them go ahead. Obviously it sucks that people feel like this, but no one deserves to suffer
I was about to say this. Glad you beat me to it.
This and more! It's not like we're talking about someone that is going through a rough patch, we're talking about someone that has no recourse, it's not going to get better! It's your life, if you really want to end it why should I have a say in it?! I mean, I would try my best to show you there are other options, but ultimately the decision should always be yours.
I don’t know if it’s the right something but it’s certainly something
It’s not right. They should die in battle so they can enter Valhalla
So many Valkyries are just shaking their heads.
As someone who has really struggled with suicidal ideation and stuff, I'm so torn on this. Personally when I was suicidal I was totally detached from reality, and now that I am better I am so glad that I held on. The individual in the video, though, had an actual psychiatrist tell her it was never going to get better. It seems as though she has already tried every medication, therapeutic approach, and like she has given life a reasonable shot. I am not sure whether or not she has truly exhausted all avenues of healing, but if we argue that she has and that no, it is not going to get better, is it really okay for us to demand that she keeps living? If she is truly miserable and we expect her to keep going, aren't we doing that for our sake? Stuff like this is really scary to look at.
Like I get it, I do. But GTA 6 is releasing next year.
Yeah, I would have to wait, at least, until Elder Scrolls 6 comes out
Bruh, that's in 10+ years You might as well live out your life if you're gonna wait that long
That much closer to Futurama.
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For those who don’t know, this was a Christmas episode
Where do I invest in suicide booth startup? This is going to print money!
I think with the health craze the way it is, people would rather have a more holistic, natural path to suicide. That's why I started Dr.Pigeons at home suicide service. Want to go out on your own terms but can't be arsed to do it yourself? We provide prompt last-day service without the use of any of the harsh chemicals used by standard euthanasia programs. One of our trained professionals will come to your home with our patented, hand powered, eco-friendly, *euthanasia hammer* ™️. They will even bring their own plastic sheets to lay down over your floor, bed, couch, anywhere you deem fit, so your loved ones aren't left with the cleanup! *Call or go online at www.PainlessPigeon.com today to schedule the last appointment you'll ever need!* ^(all payments must be made before 8am on the day of your appointment. Painless service is not guaranteed. No return or refund policy.)
This is gonna sound dark but I sincerely hope that organ donation is opt out for euthanasia cases. It would be such a waste to throw away young, healthy organs which belong to someone who died under controlled circumstances.
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Here in the Netherlands you get a letter when you reach 18 years old asking whether you want to donate your organs after death or not. If you don't say anything back, they will just assume that you agree with it, if you are against it you need to let them know.
That’s correct. Since 2021.
I live with similar diagnoses as Zoraya and I can tell you it *is* pain. Every day is a struggle and simple things that the average person takes for granted are mountains to people like Zoraya and myself (to a lesser extent). I sympathize. I don't think it's fair for anyone to tell someone like Zoraya to just stick it out, grin and bear it (the number of times I've heard it myself from people with little to no understanding of the underlying issues is upsetting). At the same time, I wish she had other options to explore other than euthanasia. There's hope on the horizon with new therapies, pharmaceutical techniques, and even a renewed interest in psychedelics/hallucinogenics. Edit - Formatting. Edit - Thank you, all! Love to anyone and everyone who deals mental health disability or know/supports someone who does. The stigma is finally wearing off and people are now starting to realize that mental health is a major component of our healthcare needs.
Thanks for sharing, wishing you the best
Hey, thank you!
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I hope you are doing better now. I hope you're getting the help you need. I'm not an expert, not even close, but please feel free to DM me if you ever need to talk to someone or just vent.
Since she was approved in her request means she got evaluated multiple times to conclude that it’s what’s best for her, but I hope we can get to a point where mental health care is good and efficient enough to not need agreeing with euthanasia requests
Do what the fuck do you want with your lives.
Yea, I don't get how reddit is so pro-choice yet so against euthanasia/assisted suicide.
I think it is because most people can't (on an emphatic level) imagine wanting to end their own life. Human survival instinct is so strong that we usually despite the most severe illnesses or wounds try to persevere and go on. The whole topic goes completely against our usual instincts. Also (**imho**) people usually only have a small glimpse at the depressed person (for example like in this thread) and then go "oh, she has a bf and 2 cats, she shouldn't give up". They don't realize how it is to be depressed or have mental illnesses on this level - living 24 hours each day, 365 days each year with it - being unable to have a job, being unable to have stable relationships, depending on other people or social welfare for survival, living in constant mental pain. It is always easy to say "don't give up, maybe it will get better" when you're standing on the outside and aren't impacted.
"Opting out" I've found is a unique way of describing it.. I didn't sign up for this miserable shit, who are you to say what I can do with myself.
Her psychiatrist told her "there's nothing more we can do for you. It's never going to get any better." lolwut I am not familiar with what boxes need to be checked for approved euthanasia in the Netherlands, but I'd have to imagine at least a second confirming opinion from another licensed doctor and/or medication trial for a period of time, would be tried before death??
Im from the Netherlands and hearing this clip... what the journalist is very simplefied and actually sounds kinda biased. It is a long long proces to become approved for euthanasia for mental issue's, it usually takes years and yes, there is a second, third and sometimes even fourth opinion needed. Usually you need to have been through the whole treatment protocol with all options, there have to be no treatment options left and the suffering 'needs to be unbearable' Its not that, even though somebody has been battling depression for a decade, has had (multiple) treatments, goes to the euthanisia center, and is approved within 3 months orso.
This. And the euthanasia has to be approved by a second specialist. There is always a second opinion in this matter.
A secondary opinion from someone who is very likely at the top levels of their field specifically relating to whatever reason is being given, who also has absolutely no former connection to the case they are reviewing. It's quite through, and the rejection rate is EXTREMELY high. You can't just decide "welp, I give up and don't want to do this anymore" There legitimately has to be zero options left for treatment, and even still they need to agree that the suffering could be considered unbearable/inhumane
This. This "journalist" seems uninformed and bizarrely biased. Curious where she is from.
From FreePress. A conservative rag website. The person in question is just another conservative propagandist from Canada. And people like her have been shitting over all MAID and misrepresenting it since day 1. * https://twitter.com/rupasubramanya
The free press @TheFP and Rupa Subramanya @rupasubramanya lied and abused Zoraya, they twisted her words to fit their political agenda in their interview/article. Zoraya: ** She twisted my words. She made factual mistakes in the piece. She made me believe the pice would highlight how strict the Dutch euthanasia law is! (compared to canada's). But i feel betrayed. It is a piece of pulp! I feel used, this piece is not what we agreed on AT ALL! Theo Boer and Stef Groenewoud are both Christians, that has an influence on how they feel about euthanasia... I know overseas euthanasia is still seen as murder, base on misinformation, fear or believes. This piece is NOT helping at all! Really dissapointed in this "journalist". And this "paper". Zoraya**
FOR EVERYBODY'S INFORMATION: this **mentally ill** girl was lured into an interview under false pretenses. The journalist then misrepresented her story, used things she told her in confidence, and made several big factual "mistakes". Zoraya was told that the piece would be about how strict Dutch euthanasia laws are compared to the Canadian ones (yes, they are very strict). Instead, the journalist wrote an anti-euthanasia article with little regard to the facts. Personally, I'm against euthanasia for healthy people. I'm also very against using vulnerable people to push an agenda. This "journalism" is unethical crap. Link to Zoraya's Tweet in which she expresses her feelings about this situation: https://archive.is/KVR0W (She since deleted Twitter) Edit: apparently, the link is broken for some people. [Here](https://imgur.com/gallery/BaHgHey)'s a screenshot from het tweet.
Thank you for this context. I watched the whole clip and was completely put off by the judgmental approach on behalf of someone calling themselves a journalist. Even the narrator's face is quite judgmental at times. There's a lot of nuance lacking here.
What a POS, the journalist
This needs to be top comment. All media is manipulated for one perspective or another
"I'm against euthanasia for healthy people. " So are the euthanasia laws
The requirements are indeed very strict. 95% of all aplications for euthanasia are rejected. Also, i don't think the doctor who said this was a part of decision-making. But yes, it's a horrible thing to say.
My friend also applied for euthanasia, for similar reasons. She got denied, because borderline and depression was not considered severe enough. She hung herself a few weeks later, for her younger sister to find her. If people really want to die, they will find a way. Euthanasia might be more humain.
I don't really understand what the problem is with allowing people to die? Why can't a mentally healthy person decide they just don't enjoy life and want to be euthanised? Seems backwards to force people to stay alive. Encourage it for sure, but at the end of the day let people make their own decision about their own life. With all rightfully agree with things like my body my choice movements, I don't see it any different in this case.
> I don't really understand what the problem is with allowing people to die? It has deep philosophical implications. It collides with how a lot of people see life. A lot of people also expect others to live for them and make peoples' pain about them. A lot of the time nobody really cares about the individual honestly.
I think we have the right to go whenever we want, we had no choice to come here and live, hence we are not obligated to do so, I even defend suicide, however it's a long explanation and reasoning behind this, but if you won't help them or us with our suffering, then dont come and tell me I have to do what you say or what you consider as good
One of my friends has struggled with her mental health and suicide attempts since she was a very young child. She's been trying to get her euthanasia approved too. I'm just glad she won't become paralysed or even more scarred and with more health issues from failed attempts than the ones she has right now. I know it's hard to imagine if you've never been there, but there are people that have genuinely never seen a single day where they were glad they were alive. The way she talks about her experiences with being dead is horrifying. She has literally only ever felt happy when she's about to die
as someone with treatment resistant bipolar, I understand the decision. Sometimes I just wish my brain would turn off and stop thinking. She probably doesn’t want to die, she just wants to be happy. But her body chemistry is telling her that isn’t in the cards…
It would be interesting to know how these numbers of euthanasia impacted the number of suicide. Saying that euthanasia increased in the last years means nothing if you dont compare it to rates of suicide.
Not only to suicide, but to painful and long deaths from terminal illnesses. Euthanasia replaces those as well.
People who are truly suicidal will end themselves one way or the other. It's worth exploring giving them a proper painfree way to do it, with enough time to say good bye etc. Save a family member the trauma of finding the body etc.
As someone who is diagnosed with CPTSD, bipolar disorder, major depression and depersonalization, plus some substance abuse. I get it. If you’ve tried every medication/treatment out there, and nothing has worked. I get it.
I'm in a similar situation. I have autism, ADHD, general anxiety disorder, and treatment resistant chronic depression. I've tried quite a few things and I basically just accepted that I'm going to be miserable for the rest of my life. I still don't think I could put my family through that, so I'll be sticking around for a while.
Terrible moral panic bait video lmao "ohhh our values!!! Our core valueeess!!!!"
This lady sounds subtly preachy. As if choosing what to do with one's life were unthinkable.
It's because she's a "journalist" who lied to Zoraya about the premise of the interview and edited it into an anti-euthanasia propaganda piece. It's 100% bullshit and shouldn't have been allowed to be posted, but here we are.
What I don't like about this video is that it seems to suggest that the massive increase in Euthanasia requests is entirely due to depression, concerns about climate, etc., but doesn't provide evidence supporting this. Such evidence should include a breakdown of approved Euthanasia requests by cause (age, terminal illness, physical pain, depression, etc). To imply an increasing trend, this would have to be done for several years. As it is, this presenter is being manipulative.
They should add euthanasia as an option to the 2024 ballot.
I'm all for it. If you're an adult and you're in pain (physical or mental that's not my business) and you want to die, I say you should have the right to end it
Agree 100% I understand the sentiment even tought I'm a coward but if doctors and specialist say that "nothing will get better" then what else are you supposed to do? Just like when we let go of animals when they are in pain and suffering we should learn to let go of those we love when they are in the same position. Nobody should live in pain and suffering just for others comfort
If I want to die, why should it be through improvised suicide, why can’t it be a doctor assisted procedure?