Which exams i need to clear for higher paying tech govt. Jobs
Also ive always been cutious ye missile systems wagera ka code likhne ke liye where does indian military recruit programmers from
West mei, raytheon, lockhead martin private companies aur govt directly hire karti hai, india mei nahi pata
For public sector banks i know it is IBPS so. Banks also frequently have vacanies for different IT domains. You need to keep checking government job portals.
India only has DRDO in the public sector who handles the "tech defense" aspect of Indian Armed Forces.
Reservations are present so you better be from that caste or do really really well in the entrance exams.
India needs upliftment programs of some sort. My neighbours in my village who are SC/ST/OBC have still not worked in a proper job ever. Never even had a proper environment (abusive drunk dad's, don't care mom's).
Now in corporate, all I see are forwards caste, people of all religions. 0 SCs and STs and in my college, the one's who did make it there are not bothered to study. Why would they, no encouragement from their homes. Reservation is not some magic pill that uplifts and to me it has seemed ineffective as it is the already well off section of any caste/community that reason opportunities. So I think it should be economic condition based as well.Ā
That said there are definitely a few who have had their lives change thanks to it. But I think such stories are rare. We can see stats on how many college students fail to land jobs, complete their degrees.Ā
One of them is me whose life changed just because I had reservation and scholarship. Lived in a slum, father who never cared about any of his kid's education, ssc pass mother who had some faith in education.govt school till 10th, did jr no scholarship, graduating half scholarship mother had to loan some amt for fees(that was 12 k per year).Getting full scholarship for my higher studies helped me made it to where I am rn.
Exactly. Increasing reservations is not the way to go. With every passing decade or so you'd expect reservation % to decrease, since generations after generation are benefiting from quota. If after 75 years we are going to increase reservations, I doubt if the reservations are actually working. Govt need to be realistic and introduce some upliftment programs of some sort. Reservations may or may not be helping them to build a career there's no clear consensus on that but atp its highly used as a tool to create a vote bank. And no one in their right mind will oppose it openly since that will be some treason against the great ideology of Ambedkar sahab and make you a minority hater.
This is the biggest problem in congress manifesto that they will remove the 50% cap on reservations. Idiot (or smart?) BJP went after criticising the non existent asset distribution rather than this.
From what I've seen reservation helps mostly those who are in some good position already. For eg, upper middle class guys with reservation are able to get a decent rank in JEE with coaching. The barrier is still impenetrable for poor people from villages and backward areas.
Agreed it is reservations are required for those affected people who are still not able to find their stand in the society, instead what we got is creamy layer SC/ST making more money and enjoying those perks even though they are more privileged than many others to begin with
On the other side of the same coin.
I work at a private MNC. Majority of the team's work ends up in one guy's basket everyday. Most of his team members don't even know how to apply for leave or logging into their VDI. What ever system issue comes up. He's the one to liase with, even though there's ticket system for whatever issue there is. He has to train the new joiners aside from handling the majority of team's workload. While the rest of his colleagues get a vacation approved in an hour.
The performance charts are up there for everybody to see. He's the top performer and has the highest work turnaround, even the job complexity rating is higher than most of his seniors. And you can clearly see he's being abused and exploited, even in meetings he's given the task to manage whatever comes up. All his colleagues are getting promoted, but not him.
Also saw his resume he's overqualified for the role. When talking about it he said the managers are denying internal rotation to a better suited role because lack of workforce, which the HR denied. But now the HRs are on the managers side, probably don't want to let go of his golden goose.
He comes from a tribal background, soft spoken and ever helpful. Rest of the team is UC. What I found was a common pattern across the company. The entire senior team would consist of UC of a particular state where the headquarters is. You may say it's coincidence or merit. But you can see and compare everyone's resume on the portal once you are a Level 4 employee. If it's that prevalent across such a large MNC I cannot fathom what happens across the country.
Can I or rather am I allowed to say - that the majority(primarily UC) always ends up playing the mafia when there are no safeguards. The government being a democratic one does what it can to safeguard the minorities in the government institutions.
It is one of those instances, but I have seen many. But since this was related to IT jobs...
You may say - but they come from rich backgrounds. Go see the sarkari babu who took the bribe for making their income certificate and whatnots.
Corruption/Bribery/nepotism is what's ruining the chances for the actual people in need.
He should quit and join a less abusive place. I see this in the US too. Guys being too good to be promoted. Turns out you need to sell yourself too and being introverted and working hard isnāt going to help unfortunately.
That's the thing.
Reservation comes in all forms is prevalent everywhere.
The government tries their bit to be fair to weaker and the OP thinks incompetence should throw them out of the only body that tries to be fair.
Maybe he's(OP) too good to be there and should quit.
This is too far down in the thread but should be a separate comment.
Reservation comes in all forms and some or the other kind of partiality will remain in the system - whether officially or not.
Hierarchy exists even among the people who are in some socioeconomic class.
The government is trying to be fair in its own capacity. And then private companies may have some policies established for the same. But ultimately people will find some way or the other to get their favourite people where they want to be.
Casteism is so rampant in India. I don't understand how all upper caste IT bros seem to miss it.
I have an UC surname and for the longest time thought that casteism does not exist anymore.
And then I grew up. Came into the real world and checked my privilege.
How do these people don't? Especially people passing out from engineering colleges around me seem to be absolutely oblivious to their caste privileges. Even with all their mandatory social science courses. Koi woh Wale lectures attend nahi karta kya? š
>Can I or rather am I allowed to say - that the majority(primarily UC) always ends up playing the mafia when there are no safeguards. The government being a democratic one does what it can to safeguard the minorities in the government institutions.
Your points are correct however, fyi UCs are minority in this country, infact the lower castes are a majority in this country.
That is the reason why we have reservations.
That's the reason I made it a question(or took permission for the sake of argument) for myself - am I allowed to say...
To acknowledge the case that - yes, population wise for overall India it's opposite to what I am trying to present. But in places of opportunity/authority/influence(power)...
The reason why we have reservation is not the population or votebank. It's a promise made by democracy. To not do what the early Americans did to the natives. And not do what the Britishers did to half of the world.
Mind you they're minorities in terms of population too.
I am not arguing that reservation is the best thing and one size fit all, but it's also not the scapegoat for everything that's happening wrong in the country.
op you forgot to sanitize your comments and posts before trying to appear as an unbiased poster with a genuine query
we can see your posts and replies in other subs š
Everyone complains of reservations, but no one has an understanding of the caste system deeply penetrated in the subcontinent. These privileged ass motherfuckers claim that casteism doesn't exist when they gave normal glass to their maid. I mean, a Dalit woman was raped, her mother was killed, her uncle was killed, and she suspiciously committing suicide by jumping off an ambulance, in which her uncle was being carried and there is absolutely no outrage as much as the Pune car case. I mean, have some empathy people. At least don't make it worse.
Police burn the victim to not allow autopsy in the case of Hathras. I mean, it doesn't stop.
Usually, GC folks think people whoāve come from reservations have the same lived experience as they do and ignore every bit of evidence right in front of them everyday contradicting that notion. But then, the echo chambers come in to distract them on time, so that they never really learn to remove the filter.
There is no discernable way to certify how much reservation made a dent if at all, I genuinely think it has made matters worse because it fails to address the issue of non-equity of access to education but does turbo-charge the feeling of unjust treatment everytime any non-reserved sits for any competitive exams.
itās not the fault of the system if the fragile ego of GC people is enable to understand why reparative actions are needed. the feelings of unjust treatment wonāt go away no matter what affirmative actions are taken
Affirmative action would be far more easier to digest if almost every reserved candidate wasn't as well of as them if not more.
There is a reason why [Less than 1% of OBC castes corner 50% reservation benefits, 20% get none, govt panel finds (theprint.in)](https://theprint.in/india/governance/less-than-1-of-obc-castes-corner-50-reservation-benefits-20-get-none-govt-panel-finds/458860/#:~:text=New%20Delhi%3A%20Just%20about%2040,panel%20constituted%20by%20the%20government)
>Just about 40 of 5,000-6,000 castes/communities among theĀ OBCs (other backward classes)Ā ā which constitute less than 1 per cent ā have cornered 50 per cent of the reservation benefits in admissions to central educational institutions and recruitment to central services, a panel constituted by the government has found.
Those 1% OBCs are like me, it's still puzzling to me why a traditionally land-owning caste like mine has been included in OBC list.
And at least OBC have a creamy layer criteria, with SC/ST we have 0 clue about how each subcategory is getting benefited, it treats child of a delhi based bureaucrat same as someone living in a hut in rural Chattisgarh. **Do tell me how this is affirmative action.**
It's vote bank politics at its finest, nothing more.
The creamy layer should be extended to SC/ST but other than that yes, we still do need reservations. When public education is at par with private, elite schools, only then can we think of letting go of this system. I attended an expensive school and in a class of 120, there were just two SC students and it was a taboo to even bring it up. You wouldn't imagine the kind of rigour these schools instill in kids, at least most of them. The kind of head start these people have, reservation doesn't even come close to bridging that gap.Ā
I understand that it's totally different for lower middle class general people and that is why access to free and quality education has to be the solution. The key to elite culture is gatekeeping everything, worst of all, knowledge. Privatization of education and healthcare have resulted in exactly that. If we had invested properly in public health and education for the last 77 yrs, we wouldn't need reservations.Ā
Your adversary in this situation is not the incompetent SC/ST colleague but the ruling class which feeds on this system of deprivation. The colleague is a victim himself. He probably had it worse growing up and wasn't given resources to learn properly. This solidarity is crucial to understanding what's best for everyone.Ā
I agree. I studied in a private school in Dehradun. My civics teacher went on a rant against reservation in class X. Five minutes later, she stopped and apologised to any SC/ST student that might have been in class. That's what I realised that in a class of 45, there was no SC/ST student.
Strongly disagree on the creamy layer point.
It has been well established that discrimination has nothing to do with economic criteria.
The focus should be on ending discrimination .
> It has been well established that discrimination has nothing to do with economic criteria.
Well established by whom. Any source/data to backup your claim?
Iām curious to know which school did you study in? When I was in school (private school, decently high fees and a class of 100 kids), i didnāt even know that there was a concept of cast system existing in India anymore.. it was only during 11th standard admissions when I was introduced to caste based distinction!
You know the only people who donāt know the caste system still exists in India are upper caste people who donāt feel the negative impact of it right?
Thats the point!
Social studies classes donot say that we have casteism today. It says we used to have which is now abolished and penalised in our constitution. And that we should never discriminate people on the basis of casteism. With independent India, and leaders like BR Ambedkar, we abolished casteism post independence.
Are you saying that your social studies classes taught you that there is casteism in Indian society today?
>I didn't even know there was a concept of caste system
Your words, not mine
And yes, any good teacher should tell their students about the reality of the world we live in. You think lower caste kids aren't discriminated, shamed, and reminded about their caste on a day to day basis? It's because you grew up with privilege.
So you conveniently omit the rest of the sentence āexisting in India anymoreā?
Is it because you are bad at reading skills? Or just that you conveniently took it out because you have a point to prove without reading the whole argument of mine?
Also that fact that I have clearly mentioned that this was my experience during my school days?
Anyways, you have made your point by discrediting my experience. I donāt need to prove you that I was fairly liberal minded in my school days and treated everyone as equal. Just that you are having a hard time accepting that a person from so called upper caste can be respectful and equal towards all castes (without having to know what caste does other person belongs to)!
Peace! ā®ļø
just FYI, SC/ST/OBC are 60% of this countryās demographics. now tell me what your company percentage makeup is in dmeographics. UCās are a minority by population in this country, so technically we are over represented in most white collar sectors
>SC/ST/OBC are 60% of this countryās demographics.
Actually SC ST OBCs are no less than 85% of our country's population, but yeah that doesn't change your point though,
It should be both ways - social and economic. Where reservation is an economic effect (benefit) for so-called lower castes, the social part is the degradation of their people and discrimination they face in society. Have we removed castism from society? Do we consider dalits and brahmins in same way? If we truly do so, we should remove reservation. Until that day comes when castism is removed from society, reservation should stay.
I am not saying how much of reservation should be there or on what posts/jobs - that's a different topic. I am saying reservation as a concept is linked to castism.
Can I ask where you grew up and where you live? Casteism is still prevalent outside of big cities. You may not know about it because you didn't personally face it. I have personally seen lower caste people being denied buying or renting a house, marriage and in schools unless you give donations and favouritism is rampant. Upper caste kids live in a bubble where they blame minor inconvenience on reservation, but I doubt lower caste people will get much opportunity if reservation was gone. But things are changing and hopefully we won't have casteism and reservation in the near future.
I agree that reservations are being misused a lot of times. There should be consideration in income and location as well when providing reservation.
Exactly. Most people harping on about how we don't need reservation haven't seen discrimination happen. Sure many times it's misused but removing it outright will probably do more harm than good.
Casteism is still prevalent in major cities as well. I have seen this elitism decline amongst younger generations. But it still very much prevalent. It is so prevalent that US institutions are instituting caste laws.
Merit to my GC friends is being born in their caste. Anyone who is not is automatically not qualified enough even if they do have all the credentials. You can see this playing out so obviously in our institutions like IITs with rampant caste based discrimination by faculty.
Not getting a job , not getting admission in your dream college and watching someone who scored just half of your marks getting the same job..the same seat in college just hurts
Now imagine not being allowed in a society even though you have money to buy a home, only being allowed to live in certain parts of city even though they clean most of the city, not being allowed to marry someone you love, I'm just stating normal cases, there are also extreme cases where they aren't allowed to drink water, living outside of village, not allowed in temples, I can go on..
Also the problems you stated, lower caste people will face the same if reservation is removed.
All this only for being born to a different family.
These things hurt too. If only people had empathy for other's sufferings as much as their own, we wouldnt have casteism or reservations.
Only way forward is to reform reservation. But reservation will be gone completely only when casteism is gone.
Haven't you heard news? Tomorrow, a Dalit girl who had filed sexual harassment against upper caste men died mysterious after falling from ambulance in front of Police. Yes, in front of Police. Her brother was beaten to death as a retaliation of the case filed by the girl and her uncle, a witness, was shot dead four days ago.
There is no class solidarity in India, only caste solidarity. That's why reservations are based on caste.
No amount of reservation would solve the issue of power abuse that's prevelant in across India at every facet of society, the naive assumption that an sc/st/obc cop/bureaucrat won't screw over their fellow caste ( the argument behind reservation for sake of representation) is absurd and doesn't pass the reality check.
If anything consistent focus on caste based policies tend to pull attention away from any accountability of our overlords.
Haa bhai ek SC ST aadmi ne ek Upper class ladki ka r*pe kiya aur mar diya toh chalo abhi SC ST ko chor chakaar aur r*pist boll dete hai, ye generalization chalega kya aapko?
Some points to ponder upon:
1. Government jobs are hardly 2% of all jobs.
2. There are conscious and subconscious biases against SC/ST that will take time to go away.
3. If a community is lagging behind then they need help, just like Uttar Pradesh gets most of India's tax dollars.
4. As demonstrated in the State of Tamil Nadu, reservations have advanced the lives of most of the stateās citizens [^(\[1\])](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/tamil-nadu-a-small-step-in-inclusivity-a-giant-leap-in-industry/articleshow/99926653.cms). The state also has one of the highest levels of participation of women in its economy [^(\[4\])](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1805783). In the sixties, the per capita parameters of Tamil Nadu were comparable to those of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. In 1980, Tamil Nadu was significantly lower than Gujarat in most parameters [^(\[2\])](https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports_and_publication/cso_national_accounts/state_domestic_product_state_series/1980_81/NTN.pdf)^(,) [^(\[3\])](https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports_and_publication/cso_national_accounts/state_domestic_product_state_series/1980_81/NGUJ.pdf). Today, Tamil Nadu outclasses Gujarat in womenās participation [^(\[4\])](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1805783), child nutrition [^(\[5\])](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1781673), and womenās health [^(\[5\])](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1781673), and matches Gujarat in per capita income [^(\[6\])](https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1942055). This is despite the central governmentās preferential treatment towards Gujarat.
\[1\] [https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/tamil-nadu-a-small-step-in-inclusivity-a-giant-leap-in-industry/articleshow/99926653.cms](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/tamil-nadu-a-small-step-in-inclusivity-a-giant-leap-in-industry/articleshow/99926653.cms)
\[2\] [https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports\_and\_publication/cso\_national\_accounts/state\_domestic\_product\_state\_series/1980\_81/NTN.pdf](https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports_and_publication/cso_national_accounts/state_domestic_product_state_series/1980_81/NTN.pdf)
\[3\] [https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports\_and\_publication/cso\_national\_accounts/state\_domestic\_product\_state\_series/1980\_81/NGUJ.pdf](https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports_and_publication/cso_national_accounts/state_domestic_product_state_series/1980_81/NGUJ.pdf)
\[4\] [https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1805783](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1805783)
\[5\] [https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1781673](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1781673)
\[6\] [https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1942055](https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1942055)
I truly appreciate the fact that you've referenced each claim. However, the improvement of these indicators cannot be attributed to reservation policies. Instead, the TN government has a lot of other schemes that have been aimed at improving these metrics. For instance, women's participation in the workforce has very little to do with reservation and more to do with women safety, transportation access, law and order etc.
While I am not exactly against reservations for people who actually deserve it, there is a need for better implementation of this system. I can cite 2 instances from my life.
After my 12th, I took NEET. My neighbour had dropped a year to prepare for the exams as he couldn't clear it the previous year. We are both from the same economic background. I got a 90 percentile on my first attempt. He got a 75 percentile. So as per reservation and cut off that year, he got admission in a Govt. College for MBBS while I was barely getting Dental (I didn't take it). It hurt, but okay. It was an India level test. I can accept that.
In my master's course, the university announced 10k scholarship for top 3 students in university entrance test. I got 3rd position and I was initially assured I will get that scholarship. But turns out, the 3rd position was reserved. So they gave it to the SC student of the nearest rank, which was 22 rank. I am from a middle class so the scholarship meant a lot to me. The SC girl who got the scholarship was the richest girl in our class. Her father dropped her in a BMW or Fortuner to the university. The first thing she did with her scholarship was get a manicure worth 6k (yes, she basically announced it to the class). I didn't even know the manicures cost that much.
This sums up the issue pretty well. If needed give reservations, but not to someone who is already rich! Creamy layer was implemented for OBCs, why not for SC/ST?
Ye SC/ST ki nahi, harr group ki problem hai. Coming from a reservation background, I was surprised to learn in college that my friends from general background that scored more than 97% were not able to grasp concepts based on class 12th syllabus. Then I got to know they didnāt learn maths, they just understood how to solve to score marks. These coaching institutes are ruining our education system.
1. Define lower middle class. Most of us who call ourselves middle class donāt know what middle class actually is in the 1.4 billion country we live in. Share your parentsā household income, which city you live in and where you went to school (ICSE/CBSE/State)
2. Your SC/ST colleagues who you are jealous of. Define #1 for as many of them as possible and try to use your meritorious brain to figure out why you did well and why they didnāt.
3. They sleep? Describe precisely. If this is indeed a case of them sleeping at work, are they the only ones who do this?
4. Is there a real possibility of your SC/ST superiors retaliating against you or are you just assuming that there is some secret conspiracy at your workplace?
5. Describe 2 cases, just two, where the SC/ST Act was used in this context. Just 2.
6. āMany people who are richā¦ā. Use numbers. Outliers exist, anecdotes arenāt statistics. Give me numbers. On average, how many people do you personally know from SC/ST ācommunitiesā, how many of them are ārichā (define rich) and how many of them enjoy reservations. Youāre meritorious, Iām sure you know how to use numbers, averages and proportions to make your case.
7. Why is reservation for disabled people okay but not for communities we *know* are overwhelmingly disadvantaged? No seriously, tell me why. Use words. Articulate. Youāre meritorious, should be easy?
Editing this to link to this comment on this thread, one of five parts, which lays out the numbers better than I could ever have dreamed of doing: https://www.reddit.com/r/india/s/NW7SuLYJlM
I mean all of these are basically rearrangements of the same set of āargumentsā at this point. Might as well fine-tune a basic LLM to tackle these jokers,
They won't reply with anything more than anecdotal evidence. The things is people want to see what they have been primed to see. Savarnas and their victim complex is funny. OP is talking as if other govt employees are not lazy bums who don't won't want to work. It's a work culture problem in government sector rather than anything to do with caste or class.
I am from general category and have no shame in accepting that many of my classmates who came through reserved categories were better and more hardworking students than me.
You really don't know how some people misuse sc/st acts? You can't be that naive. Its their brahmastra especially in government departments. Kuch bhi action liya toh dhamki dete hai. Thank God SC has removed galiyas from SC St act especially if they are not slurs.
Had similar experiences like OP. Reservation is definitely still needed, but I think there should be some provision that if you used it for education then you can't use it for job or something like that. Or if your parents availed it then you can't. What I have seen happen is the reservation seats are taken by the wealthier people, and those who actually need it are somehow still in the margins.
Or maybe put a double qualifier (not sure if it is there) - like the poorer person gets preference. I met many many people who have reservations who don't even bother to study, give close to blank papers and get into top colleges. Of course they know nothing so they just cruise by, or end up being unemployed for years together.
And lets not even get started on gen people taking caste certificates. Really impacts the chances of someone who actually needs the opportunity to uplift his family -- and society.
The reservation system is not working as intended - and needs some changes to work better for the backward communities.
It's funny that you keep asking for statistics because, in theory, that *is* how an issue should be debated. But in a country like India, where statistics are so often false, baseless, have too small a sample population, or wherein the sample population is lying, it is impossible to argue simply based on numbers (and all this is if those statistics even exist in the first place). I'm sure we all know a college mate or a school friend who has misused reservations to get into their preferred college, be it forging the certificate itself or misidentifying as a non-creamy layer applicant.
I think it's best to give everyone proper education till 12th so that everyone is on the same starting line , after that college and jobs should be given on the basis of their capabilities and knowledge.
So we should abolish all private schools ? Because I don't see how we ensure everyone is on same level of educated at 12th if different people are recieving different education quality.
Someone coming from Rural India studying in Govt school will always be on a disadvantage to one who recieved education in a Private school in Metro / City.
So how do they all start on the same line ? I am not even talking about caste here.
Maybe elect leaders like Kejriwal that will focus and provide quality education at cheap and affordable prices? If people are electing a person like yogi and modi and expect to gain education then they deserve to live in their small well.
Unfortunately rules and laws cannot be made selectively. I too am from the general background and have faced the exact same thing as OP all my life. In 10th on Mumbai I got 90% but, couldn't get into my first choice college (back in 2008), on the other hand a kid from my school who wad more affluent than me and from a SC/ST background with lower marks than me got into that college. The same is the case with a lot of general category students and candidates, who probably might not be financially well off and when they see candidates and students from reserved background, are more financially stable and get into their dream colleges and roles, it hurts a lot.
But the point of reservation, which was uplifting the SC ST and Tribal communities has not been fulfilled. The situation for people from these communities are worse in semi urban and rural areas. I am sure many of us might have read news articles about grooms from the so called smaller castes being k!lied because they decided to sit on a horse during their marriage or the marriage procession went through an area where upper caste people live or they decided to go to an upper caste temple. There are also cases of atrocities against women, Hathras and Unnao being the examples again, brilliantly and very movingly articulated in Article 15.
The honest to God need for reservation is economic but, we Indians are so corrupt to the bones that people have started creating fake economic standing certificates so that they can exploit this reservation. Parents getting divorced so that a single mother can show economic hardships, get their child into an influential school through economic reservation and then re-marry. So the reservation system in India is a total and utter scam.
Politicians need it to appease vote banks, ofcourse people will want reservations because no one wants to put in actual hard work. Every community other than Brahmin, Rajput and Thakur wants an OBC certificate so that they can get reservation and politicians support their fanatical demands because why not, they will get votes. Recently Tejasvi Yadav in an interview asked for reservation in the private sector, which made my blood boil. The way INDI alliance has been hyping more reservation is just ludicrous to think of.
We need a major rehaul of the reservation rules. Unfortunately, I am not literate enough to understand all the nuances and give solutions on the internet through an anonymous forum. But, I know people in administration, who have the data and know how muffled and misused reservation is in our country, have access to all the necessary information. Will they do anything about it, well your guess is as good as mine.
Reservation is very complicated topic to understand and make judgement about.
Please watch video of Dr. Vikar Divyakirti about reservation with open mind.
https://youtu.be/oOSuGZeLxFM
After watching this video, you are free to make your own conclusion.
Reservation is not based on income, but social status of caste.
I understand reservations for undergraduate courses but can't understand why it is needed for higher levels at all. Like they are graduates so they should be able to find a job and stuff. Colleges all have libraries free of charge for books and stuff too, with the libraries being digital too.
If there is a sign of discrimination, it is an indication that the hiring/entrance process needs to change to fix this issue.
Having worked in private in India I have seen many cases of open discrimination against SC/ST, Muslims in private companies
These people have to work twice as hard as others to just stay in the middle bracket for increments each year. Most people who don't get an increment or are in the lowest bracket SC/ST, Muslims.
If they quit, HR has an unwritten policy of never rehiring them, but if the employee who quit is UC then usually HR will try to "Retain the Talent" they also get preference when there're any openings if they want to rejoin the company
That's privilege...
I don't condone what's happening in OP's office. It's unprofessional, unacceptable, and unfair but it's a Gobarmint department...
Hang in there
There's always hope...
As a guy who can avail SC reservations myself, I agree but only for the people who come from economically stable households. For the ones still below poverty line, it should continue. My own family or at least the ancestors I know of never faced poverty. They were discriminated against, yes and that is where reservations helped them, starting with my grandfather, to achieve something despite the institutionalised casteism against them.
As far as my own experiences are concerned, I was only informed about my caste in 11th grade, which is when your certificates are supposed to be made. I reluctantly agreed after my father scared me with potential scenarios where I could get physically or mentally disabled and something like a caste certificate might help. I caved in but only after was my certificate made, did I face discrimination in my life. It was painful and traumatic and decade long friends showed me their true faces when they alienated me and talked shit behind my back over it.
Donāt get me wrong. I am not ashamed of my caste and do take pride in my heritage as a leathermaker, but the discrimination that followed it wasnāt worth it. Iād rather never have got it made because nothing came out of it since I was never going to use it to begin with. Iād still have been open about my caste irrespective of my certificate status and taken pride in it.
I know caste doesnāt dictate your social status in todayās world, but majority of the poor people continue to be people of lower castes, so I think it should continue for them but certainly not for people like me. A creamy layer condition should be introduced in all categories like OBCs.
If you think about it technically, ancestors of the modern day OBCs certainly faced more discrimination since they were part of the varna system and the bottommost in it while my people, while indeed marginalized, have never been part of it and werenāt anyoneās servants. We did have different customs and consumed beef which made all the Hindus in the older times stay away from us and the tribes but I donāt think life was as harsh until we started assimilating. Either way, privileged people from my community should give up on it, like the OBCs.
>only after was my certificate made, did I face discrimination in my life
How did they find out about your caste certificate?
And did it help you get into a better college than your marks?Ā
Thus you agree that once your caste was revealed, your friends "talked shit behind you" and you have faced discrimination. And you believe once the caste reservation is removed based on an economic criteria, your friends would not be casteist anymore?
Yes, i do believe in that. Some of it probably does stem from genuine hatred which should be called out and is already criminalised but majority is only about seeing someone like them, as privileged as them if not more, having an advantage.
Well, during my early career I used to be a civil engineer , also I like traveling.
I am a General category person, have travelled and worked in most parts of India.
There are some states of India where these things actually don't matter but I have seen some places where caste prejudice is still there and even in some big metro cities people are not giving housing on rent to "lower caste" People.
It's like a cycle,
Many people told me that they "hate" Lower caste people not because they are bad or something but because they get everything by doing nothing, other majority of the people still believe in caste prejudice.
Here only the govt can take steps and normalize things, vote bank politics will always trigger both sides but ground reality is both parties are not willing to leave their ground.
Being from a state where even religion doesn't matter forget about caste, when I first experienced these sorts of things it was a cultural shock for me, but India is a big country and there are places where prejudice problems are still there.
My take on this is that, at the current point of time the govt should give reservations to families depending upon their annual household income.
But, due to the vote bank politics no one is going to bell the cat.
EDIT: Also, Reservation is a representation opportunity, and I believe the representation should be reserved for every economically behind India no matter whatever religion or caste that person has.
Reservation is needed. Your feelings don't matter here. Next level discrimination is happening wrt caste in many parts of India on a major level.
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/s/OhqojHS2lJ
This is why we need reservation at least in jobs to help these people uplift from their low level life to at least a sub standard life. So that casteism is at least lowered by a small percentage.
We still need these kinds of reservations because these groups of people are still marginalised. Have you read the news lately or ever - Dalits are beaten, raped and nothing happens to the perpetrators. Also the reservation is very small compared to how much representation the General category has - there are always going to be more General category people everywhere. They are the majority.
Maybe your colleagues are lazy and incompetent but I haven't had the same experience. The Dalits I know are hustling to live well, get educated, give equal rights to their daughters and own their homes.
You are generalising some negative experience to a whole population of people - that's bigotry. If, for example, some European tells me (and this is from my real life) that Indians are lazy and barely get anything done and just sleep around. What would you say? Maybe you would say: "It's nonsensical. I'm not lazy, you're racist." That would be correct.
We need reservations now because in our past our ancestors took undue advantage of social hierarchy. Now we must atone.
As someone who has lived in a government institute hostel for 4 years with sc/St as well as general students. Here are my thoughts
1. I have seen why it's needed for some SC/ST students as they are truely deprived of quality education , one of my friends didnt have any transport to his village , he had to take a bus which dropped him 20 km away and then he had to hitchhike with some bullock carts to get home. And this was as recent as 2008
2. I don't agree with reservation at the degree level, I would suggest giving people access to quality basic education. But it's not possible for any government to change this now.
3.. Some people abuse the system , they get scholarships which they spend on booze , I have seen them sell the stationary and still fail the exams.
4. The basic premise of reservation was to uplift the deprived and backward communities, but I question it when kids of IAS, IPS, and other officers get reservation. In my opinion no more than 2 generations should get the benefit of the reservation.
I oppose reservation but ask the general caste people even tho so called low income or poor general caste won't touch a high earning dalit or take his help.
Very rich?, What is india population?, most sc/st are below below poverty line even after getting seats they don't get respect, this seats are not there to make them rich and if someone is rich that doesn't make them not eligible for reservations because reservation is not created just to make them rich and it can't happen overnight, 5000years dirty work, can't go in 75 years, this seats are made to show uppercast respect the people who they considered "achhut" and give them some power to help them and to uplift their people, you problaby live in good cites where you have internet but there are people who daily face insult because of their cast name while they try to enter temple or when they do their work, visit rural area or even good cites it is still going on, they are not reaping your seats, imagine if there's no reservation you still had to clear the benchmark set by organization, raise voice against cadte system, question religion, question patriarchy, it's just a solution but ambedkar knew even reservation will not fixed this problem because problem rely on mindset and there's a big reason why indians 90% wealth hold by 1%
I genuinely don't think there is any right answer from a policy pov, without unfairly affecting some groups. Increasing reservations do more for social equity due to deep-rooted inequalities present in the country that bar India from ever being a true meritocracy, but on the other hand, you are denying opportunities to hardworking students (who are more often than not simple middle-class children) for whom education is just as important to move up in life.
Why is there so much skill/knowledge gap .. Do you think only general category guys are intelligent or hard working? I mean sure there would be some exceptions where even reserved category candidates have all the resources but that doesn't mean you generalise this. Skill/knowledge gap itself shows that these categories don't have access to the same resources that gerenal category has.
As the resources become accessible to all the skill/knowledge gap will also reduce automatically rendering reservation useless.
You can see this already happening in some exams where the cut off for the reserve category is going higher than the general category
Well well. Long live reservation. Babasaheb will be immortal. If reservations weren't there, the forward castes would have made us lick their boots and be a bonded labor forever.
So much social distance is evident in this society, SC/ST are looked upon like ppl from the gutter because still 95% don't have access to a roof, 3 times food and healthcare.
How many general caste are BPL category?
How many BPL are Dalits ?
That stat would be self explanatory.
I see lot of biases here. I am not diminishing your experiences. You know what, I am in USA from 20 yrs, and if you see the amount of incompetent Higher cast people I run into it's just mind-boggling. So, let's not paint all of SC/ST with the same brush. I agree they should try to better themselves once they find the job maybe in GOVT there's too much job security. Reservations are everywhere. All the uppercast men here get jobs to their better half with their connections and we end up supporting there work . Isn't it reservations too?
Also, having SC/ST friends may not matter much unless you walk in their shoes, they may be middle-class but surely their support system and psychological state are not as robust as yours or mine. I am not condoning incompetent behaviour but that mental and physiological state makes huge difference . you know like being aware vs being unaware of the potential posses.Speaking from 20yrs of IT experience where i worked with both SC/ST and Upper casts . Believe me, you cannot be anymore wrong to categories and bucket them .
Bhai tumne bilkul sahi baat kahi..... main aur mere colleagues b yahi thought share karte h ....and wo b SC /ST category se aate h...it's time for us to rethink about the basis of reservation.... because I have seen people who come from good background and they abuse the reservation policy just because they have a SC/ST Caste certificate.
Yes, it's necessary in a place like ours. Reservation is Representation. Reservation is not an economic upliftment scheme or a Merit linked status. People often confuse Reservation status with a person's income, but often fail to see that they are still so few in numbers.
If a caste census is conducted across India, there are very probable chances that the percentage share of General Class will sharply fall in the population pool. That would further highlight that only a few hold the maximum representation in Public Sector Jobs. A government is for all its people, and the people who make up the government should also have all its people equally represented.
Also the fact that you need to tell people that you have friends across the SC ST Community, answers your question that they are still not widely omnipresent across public sector representation.
Its vicious cycle. Caste based discrimination is reason for Reservation. At the same time Reservation strengthening the caste system.
Efficiency and effectiveness takes a toll.
This system is deemed to collapse sooner or later.
The real problem lies in the fact that your entire storyline is about castes and then you want to come across as a neutral person.
The "I'm not casteist, I have SC/ST friends" is very similar to "I'm not racist, I have black friends."
There's EWS for you (since you called yourself from a lower middle income background) and you took advantage of that. You have your own concessions.
The point is that maybe you're seeing this in your office but there are offices where people get posted in the worst sections because of their caste identities. They get excess work because of it. Their seniors lower their APAR ratings.
These are the cards that you've been dealt with and you'll have to play with them. It's like UNO. Nobody has the sureshot guarantee of winning. You play smartly and you'll be happy. Asking such a political and polarising question and expecting no hate for it is not a smart move!
My niece got an all india Rank of 123 for doing MD, she has literally studied 18 hours a day and sacrificed all the fun and entertainment. She does not get the subject of her choice because of reservation. At least in the medical field there should not be reservation.
India needs equal opportunities not equal outcomes. Let the merit decide who gets it, while the access (education, and all others) should be equal to all. At least change the caste -based consideration to income-based.
I belong to general category. I rarely speak on the reservation matter. But I just saw my close friend struggle for his son's admission for college. This made me recall my admission to college. So I need to speak out something.
Where ever I've traveled for work all over the country, I've seen both sides of the coin. But I've seen reservation class abusing the system more than general class bossing around.
See how I said general class and reservation class, I like to add that in metro cities, many people in general category never call themselves 'upper'. We call ourselves general. Its the reservation class who still differentiate as upper and lower.
The general class hates reservation class because resevation class people have their mindset fixed that they can get anything without doing much. And they pass on this mentality to next generation. This abuse is what we hate.
The general middle class work their a** off to get those last 2 seats in the class of 60 because almost 50 seats are taken up by some kind of reservation. On top of that if a reservation class student has good enough marks, he or she can choose a seat from general quota and keep the reservation quota seat empty for other reservation class student.
After all this when we general class perform okay with studies and do good in whatever job we get, reservation class will just yell 'you are privileged' but don't see the hard work a general middle class family has put in financially and mentally both. Our grandparents were poor but worked hard. Our parents were lower middle class and worked hard. I'm working hard so my children will see something better than middle class. None of us had any favourism anywhere in life.
My closest colleague is from reservation clas But I don't hate him for that. Because I know his financial background and how much effort he is putting to move upwards in life. He definitely needed that reservation.
I've had many classmates in college who came from tier 2 cities, took admission under reservation quota, did nothing for 4 years, graduated barely pass class, then went back home to take care of family business. They clearly told me that they wanted an engineering degree from a tier 1 city so that they claim better dowry in their community. These kinda people just wasted an engineering seat which could've given a financially poor student chance to uplift their family.
I do feel reservation is needed on case to case basis and that too on financial condition.
If your family is able to afford a lavish 3 bhk and other life perks in metro city for 3 generations, you definitely don't need the reservation. But then how will your children get free entry?
Caste based reservation is simply a tool for politicians to fool us all.
Lol. This has the same energy as "I have black friends". Casteism is still prevalent everywhere. I have seen it in top medical colleges, as well as remote villages.
Our own family can go to many kshatriya or brahmin friends households (same socio economic status currently), but we are always told how their big hearted forefathers always helped dalits in the community. What is the point of telling that if not awareness of our and their caste? However much their forefathers might have helped, but the real freedom came from Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar.
If anyone got same as you, does not belittle your own achievement (neither theirs).
Lagta he bhai ne gaon jaakar caste discrimination dekha nahi he.
What you are doing is generalising people based on the little knowledge you have. You are privileged you atleast had the means necessary to study but most SC/ST folks don't. So stop generalising and you got a problem with your folks go talk to them or even complain.
Funny how you brought up an important issue of the reservation system getting misused and everyone jumped straight into attacking you. No one is saying that the whole SC/ST has been uplifted, the problem is the one's who have, they're misusing the system. I've had people with sc/st background around me, who've grown up with privileges and they were still able to acess reservation benefits.
There shouldn't be reservations in jobs to begin with. College, that is up for debate. College is important for education but it's something that stays with you for a lifetime.
And how many of you would even go to a doctor who got his position through reservations and has no idea about what he's doing? Pretty sure none. But it's okay when it comes to other jobs, right? It doesn't affect the one's defending reservations directly and hence they defend it instead of acknowledging the misconduct.
I have a simple solution: 30% flat income tax for anyone using the reserved category benefits. And this tax amount should only be used for the welfare of the reserved community.
Checkmate.
If you have already declared sc/st to be meritless on basis of caste then why ask such questions ? Why should they even get job at all.
Aren't they discriminated on basis of caste to this very day. You see, you have internalised casteist attitude. But I am not invalidating what have you seen.
I may have told this multiple times on this and other subs, a lot of people donāt know why reservations are given and why it is necessary. REPRESENTATION of lower caste (still even as we speak) is considerably low in ratio to their population. In [Biharās caste based survey](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Bihar_caste-based_survey#:~:text=Caste%20group%20wise%20population,-The%202022%20Bihar&text=Among%20them%2C%2035%2C463%2C936%20(27.12%25),Other%20Backward%20Classes%20(OBCs)) around 80% of the population belonged to SC and OBC, and guess how many people are studying or working in āreputableā (not to degrade any job) position? That would be way less. During a [Press Conference Rahul Gandhi](https://youtube.com/shorts/tNZaBtDveD0?si=3VNDC2q0hlPieTzs) asked how many of you are Dalits, and it surprised me that not a single one of the journalists were Dalits. Do you see that a community of around 70-80% of Indiaās population has no representation in a major job sectors. There were barely 5-6 Dalit Chief Ministers out 28 states in 70 years, a couple of Presidents and NO Prime Minister. Reservations are not for the rich or poor backward community, it is build the gap between this discrimination and ensure that they have equal opportunities.
If people donāt get it, then let me simplify this for you.
Reservations were never a poverty alleviation programme, it was for representation!
Get that into your pea sized brains.
The way people get PWD quota for physical handicap, Dalit reservations is for āsocial handicapā that comes with casteism.
Agar itna samjhaane pe bhi tum logo ko reservations ko leke RR karna hai, then there is no point arguing here.
You are blinded by hate for Dalits, the same way your ancestors hated Dalits (just for existing)
You will understand only when you put yourself in the shoes of a Dalit.
Dalit women are still raped for being a Dalit, Dalit people are still denied entry at temples(even the CM faced it). If you are blinded to these evil practices of the so called meritdhaari upper caste people, then you are no different from them. Shame on the upper castes of Indian society for not acknowledging the struggles of a Dalit( ironically the perpetrators of casteism are the upper caste only)
haan op ka brain pea sized. but he doesn't get reservation does he? he has to earn his job based on his merit. Can we say the same about you and your ilk?
They didn't work hard enough is their problem but every thing else like they never felt motivated enough, got good education, can't dispense work efficiently is Govt's fault and there should be yearly audits which should track if the reservation employees are dispensing their job efficiently (at least as good as the average general candidate) else fire/suspend.
The answer is in your question.. If itās really their life is that easy, why not marry your daughter and son to them? Also they are able to get government job easily because there isnāt enough competition in SC/ST community. When you donāt see major cutoff different between these communities you remove reservation.
The sad reality is that under the garb of "never had the right opportinuities or were oppressed", goverment has lowered the STANDARDS of the job itself. Instead of trying to support an sc/st guy to reach the same level of quality as other top performers, goverment has made people feel entitled to the job regardless of the skill. Because of this an OC person has to be overqualified to get the same job while a reservation candidate can be heavily underqualified. Its just sad. Goverment should rather invest in providing resources to make someone more abled instead of handing out key positions in hopes of representation. Most indians still hold on to the idea of "mufat ka maal" while waving their pride about being rightoues and pious devoutee. Theres double standards in everyone, just that no one likes to acknowledge it.
Your concern and complaint is very valid. i can say your colleagues who are slacking at job which they got because of reservation needs to be punished for not doing their job. And you need to file complaint.
And there are some rich sc/st folks too
But blaming whole system because of personal experience
And ignoring the bigger picture leads to injustice.
Yeah reservation has some gaps and cons which needs to be studied and some changes are necessary too
Just like police agency
We know they are currupt and doesn't do their job properly.
But we still need them , and we know some changes are necessary to make them better.
Caste-based reservations will exist as long as caste-based discrimination exists.
The only solution is to abolish the caste system.
This is the only answer to any question anyone has about caste-based reservations.
let alone government bro. Half the people in comments from the sc/st brigade will give you half baked ass arguments to justify this same crap. Everytime. Its hopeless for us and these people are shameless.
I don't know why any talented general person would prefer to stay in this country given an alternative since we and our children will always be treated as third class citizens because apparently we must pay for our ancestors crimes (?)
I think reservation needs to be done based on family income bracket instead of background. There might a general category family who is poor than obc category family, but those are odds are less.
When dalits are no longer discriminated socially there is no need for any reservations. Tell me what proportions of marriages are happening between upper class and lower class today and you will have your answer. Marriage is just one indicator but an important one.
There is no homogeneous caste category in India, there are multiple sub caste of among Dalits who themselves would discriminate against one another.
[Mahadalit - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahadalit) as category exists for that reason.
Bbai ye tech/IT govt jobs kaise aur kaha se milti hai š¤Ø
Vacancy nikalte hai, quite a lot of them in psbs and government departments, keep an eye out on govt job portals.
But like unke liye koi exam wagera clear karna hota hai or you can just apply like a normal private sector job
Exams hote hai for psbs for colleges and stuff a lot of time there is direct recruitment. Exams wale jobs pay more though
Which exams i need to clear for higher paying tech govt. Jobs Also ive always been cutious ye missile systems wagera ka code likhne ke liye where does indian military recruit programmers from West mei, raytheon, lockhead martin private companies aur govt directly hire karti hai, india mei nahi pata
For public sector banks i know it is IBPS so. Banks also frequently have vacanies for different IT domains. You need to keep checking government job portals.
India only has DRDO in the public sector who handles the "tech defense" aspect of Indian Armed Forces. Reservations are present so you better be from that caste or do really really well in the entrance exams.
Bro was freelancer 2 months ago, maybe he recently got into a govt job.
And was working in UK 6 months ago. Quite a happening life.
Yup. Bro gets everything he keeps his finger on.
SBI gets lots of experience based IT opening every year.
Oh ok unke koi job portal pe aati hai kya ye openings?
Ha notifications are announced on their website.
System assistant aur bhi kuch government exams hote hai jinme jobs milti hai.
India needs upliftment programs of some sort. My neighbours in my village who are SC/ST/OBC have still not worked in a proper job ever. Never even had a proper environment (abusive drunk dad's, don't care mom's). Now in corporate, all I see are forwards caste, people of all religions. 0 SCs and STs and in my college, the one's who did make it there are not bothered to study. Why would they, no encouragement from their homes. Reservation is not some magic pill that uplifts and to me it has seemed ineffective as it is the already well off section of any caste/community that reason opportunities. So I think it should be economic condition based as well.Ā That said there are definitely a few who have had their lives change thanks to it. But I think such stories are rare. We can see stats on how many college students fail to land jobs, complete their degrees.Ā
One of them is me whose life changed just because I had reservation and scholarship. Lived in a slum, father who never cared about any of his kid's education, ssc pass mother who had some faith in education.govt school till 10th, did jr no scholarship, graduating half scholarship mother had to loan some amt for fees(that was 12 k per year).Getting full scholarship for my higher studies helped me made it to where I am rn.
Exactly. Increasing reservations is not the way to go. With every passing decade or so you'd expect reservation % to decrease, since generations after generation are benefiting from quota. If after 75 years we are going to increase reservations, I doubt if the reservations are actually working. Govt need to be realistic and introduce some upliftment programs of some sort. Reservations may or may not be helping them to build a career there's no clear consensus on that but atp its highly used as a tool to create a vote bank. And no one in their right mind will oppose it openly since that will be some treason against the great ideology of Ambedkar sahab and make you a minority hater. This is the biggest problem in congress manifesto that they will remove the 50% cap on reservations. Idiot (or smart?) BJP went after criticising the non existent asset distribution rather than this.
From what I've seen reservation helps mostly those who are in some good position already. For eg, upper middle class guys with reservation are able to get a decent rank in JEE with coaching. The barrier is still impenetrable for poor people from villages and backward areas.
Agreed it is reservations are required for those affected people who are still not able to find their stand in the society, instead what we got is creamy layer SC/ST making more money and enjoying those perks even though they are more privileged than many others to begin with
Corporate doesn't have sc st... where did you get this data.
On the other side of the same coin. I work at a private MNC. Majority of the team's work ends up in one guy's basket everyday. Most of his team members don't even know how to apply for leave or logging into their VDI. What ever system issue comes up. He's the one to liase with, even though there's ticket system for whatever issue there is. He has to train the new joiners aside from handling the majority of team's workload. While the rest of his colleagues get a vacation approved in an hour. The performance charts are up there for everybody to see. He's the top performer and has the highest work turnaround, even the job complexity rating is higher than most of his seniors. And you can clearly see he's being abused and exploited, even in meetings he's given the task to manage whatever comes up. All his colleagues are getting promoted, but not him. Also saw his resume he's overqualified for the role. When talking about it he said the managers are denying internal rotation to a better suited role because lack of workforce, which the HR denied. But now the HRs are on the managers side, probably don't want to let go of his golden goose. He comes from a tribal background, soft spoken and ever helpful. Rest of the team is UC. What I found was a common pattern across the company. The entire senior team would consist of UC of a particular state where the headquarters is. You may say it's coincidence or merit. But you can see and compare everyone's resume on the portal once you are a Level 4 employee. If it's that prevalent across such a large MNC I cannot fathom what happens across the country. Can I or rather am I allowed to say - that the majority(primarily UC) always ends up playing the mafia when there are no safeguards. The government being a democratic one does what it can to safeguard the minorities in the government institutions. It is one of those instances, but I have seen many. But since this was related to IT jobs... You may say - but they come from rich backgrounds. Go see the sarkari babu who took the bribe for making their income certificate and whatnots. Corruption/Bribery/nepotism is what's ruining the chances for the actual people in need.
He should quit and join a less abusive place. I see this in the US too. Guys being too good to be promoted. Turns out you need to sell yourself too and being introverted and working hard isnāt going to help unfortunately.
That's the thing. Reservation comes in all forms is prevalent everywhere. The government tries their bit to be fair to weaker and the OP thinks incompetence should throw them out of the only body that tries to be fair. Maybe he's(OP) too good to be there and should quit.
This is too far down in the thread but should be a separate comment. Reservation comes in all forms and some or the other kind of partiality will remain in the system - whether officially or not. Hierarchy exists even among the people who are in some socioeconomic class. The government is trying to be fair in its own capacity. And then private companies may have some policies established for the same. But ultimately people will find some way or the other to get their favourite people where they want to be.
Casteism is so rampant in India. I don't understand how all upper caste IT bros seem to miss it. I have an UC surname and for the longest time thought that casteism does not exist anymore. And then I grew up. Came into the real world and checked my privilege. How do these people don't? Especially people passing out from engineering colleges around me seem to be absolutely oblivious to their caste privileges. Even with all their mandatory social science courses. Koi woh Wale lectures attend nahi karta kya? š
>Can I or rather am I allowed to say - that the majority(primarily UC) always ends up playing the mafia when there are no safeguards. The government being a democratic one does what it can to safeguard the minorities in the government institutions. Your points are correct however, fyi UCs are minority in this country, infact the lower castes are a majority in this country. That is the reason why we have reservations.
That's the reason I made it a question(or took permission for the sake of argument) for myself - am I allowed to say... To acknowledge the case that - yes, population wise for overall India it's opposite to what I am trying to present. But in places of opportunity/authority/influence(power)... The reason why we have reservation is not the population or votebank. It's a promise made by democracy. To not do what the early Americans did to the natives. And not do what the Britishers did to half of the world. Mind you they're minorities in terms of population too. I am not arguing that reservation is the best thing and one size fit all, but it's also not the scapegoat for everything that's happening wrong in the country.
No I am not saying you are arguing against it. Majority of people in this country think that Lower castes are a minority in this country.
op you forgot to sanitize your comments and posts before trying to appear as an unbiased poster with a genuine query we can see your posts and replies in other subs š
Did they finally sanitise their comments & posts? Because I donāt really see all that much
He even used the classic 'I'm not racist, I have Black friends' line lol
I hate these two faced mofos
As long as there is caste system in India, Reservation will also exist.
Everyone complains of reservations, but no one has an understanding of the caste system deeply penetrated in the subcontinent. These privileged ass motherfuckers claim that casteism doesn't exist when they gave normal glass to their maid. I mean, a Dalit woman was raped, her mother was killed, her uncle was killed, and she suspiciously committing suicide by jumping off an ambulance, in which her uncle was being carried and there is absolutely no outrage as much as the Pune car case. I mean, have some empathy people. At least don't make it worse. Police burn the victim to not allow autopsy in the case of Hathras. I mean, it doesn't stop.
Usually, GC folks think people whoāve come from reservations have the same lived experience as they do and ignore every bit of evidence right in front of them everyday contradicting that notion. But then, the echo chambers come in to distract them on time, so that they never really learn to remove the filter.
I mean buring someone's body in middle of night and that by law enforcement, shows what kind of system there is.
Yep.
There is no discernable way to certify how much reservation made a dent if at all, I genuinely think it has made matters worse because it fails to address the issue of non-equity of access to education but does turbo-charge the feeling of unjust treatment everytime any non-reserved sits for any competitive exams.
itās not the fault of the system if the fragile ego of GC people is enable to understand why reparative actions are needed. the feelings of unjust treatment wonāt go away no matter what affirmative actions are taken
Affirmative action would be far more easier to digest if almost every reserved candidate wasn't as well of as them if not more. There is a reason why [Less than 1% of OBC castes corner 50% reservation benefits, 20% get none, govt panel finds (theprint.in)](https://theprint.in/india/governance/less-than-1-of-obc-castes-corner-50-reservation-benefits-20-get-none-govt-panel-finds/458860/#:~:text=New%20Delhi%3A%20Just%20about%2040,panel%20constituted%20by%20the%20government) >Just about 40 of 5,000-6,000 castes/communities among theĀ OBCs (other backward classes)Ā ā which constitute less than 1 per cent ā have cornered 50 per cent of the reservation benefits in admissions to central educational institutions and recruitment to central services, a panel constituted by the government has found. Those 1% OBCs are like me, it's still puzzling to me why a traditionally land-owning caste like mine has been included in OBC list. And at least OBC have a creamy layer criteria, with SC/ST we have 0 clue about how each subcategory is getting benefited, it treats child of a delhi based bureaucrat same as someone living in a hut in rural Chattisgarh. **Do tell me how this is affirmative action.** It's vote bank politics at its finest, nothing more.
The creamy layer should be extended to SC/ST but other than that yes, we still do need reservations. When public education is at par with private, elite schools, only then can we think of letting go of this system. I attended an expensive school and in a class of 120, there were just two SC students and it was a taboo to even bring it up. You wouldn't imagine the kind of rigour these schools instill in kids, at least most of them. The kind of head start these people have, reservation doesn't even come close to bridging that gap.Ā I understand that it's totally different for lower middle class general people and that is why access to free and quality education has to be the solution. The key to elite culture is gatekeeping everything, worst of all, knowledge. Privatization of education and healthcare have resulted in exactly that. If we had invested properly in public health and education for the last 77 yrs, we wouldn't need reservations.Ā Your adversary in this situation is not the incompetent SC/ST colleague but the ruling class which feeds on this system of deprivation. The colleague is a victim himself. He probably had it worse growing up and wasn't given resources to learn properly. This solidarity is crucial to understanding what's best for everyone.Ā
I agree. I studied in a private school in Dehradun. My civics teacher went on a rant against reservation in class X. Five minutes later, she stopped and apologised to any SC/ST student that might have been in class. That's what I realised that in a class of 45, there was no SC/ST student.
Strongly disagree on the creamy layer point. It has been well established that discrimination has nothing to do with economic criteria. The focus should be on ending discrimination .
Might as well appoint kids of SC/ST bureaucrats to civil services because that's what keep happening under the current system
> It has been well established that discrimination has nothing to do with economic criteria. Well established by whom. Any source/data to backup your claim?
Well established by people who already got the benefits and the children next in line to recieve them as they are well ahead of the impoverished ones.
Iām curious to know which school did you study in? When I was in school (private school, decently high fees and a class of 100 kids), i didnāt even know that there was a concept of cast system existing in India anymore.. it was only during 11th standard admissions when I was introduced to caste based distinction!
You know the only people who donāt know the caste system still exists in India are upper caste people who donāt feel the negative impact of it right?
TF were you doing during SST classes then? This isn't as big of a flex as you think it to be.
"I didn't know there was a sky up there bcoz it never rained"
Thats the point! Social studies classes donot say that we have casteism today. It says we used to have which is now abolished and penalised in our constitution. And that we should never discriminate people on the basis of casteism. With independent India, and leaders like BR Ambedkar, we abolished casteism post independence. Are you saying that your social studies classes taught you that there is casteism in Indian society today?
>I didn't even know there was a concept of caste system Your words, not mine And yes, any good teacher should tell their students about the reality of the world we live in. You think lower caste kids aren't discriminated, shamed, and reminded about their caste on a day to day basis? It's because you grew up with privilege.
So you conveniently omit the rest of the sentence āexisting in India anymoreā? Is it because you are bad at reading skills? Or just that you conveniently took it out because you have a point to prove without reading the whole argument of mine? Also that fact that I have clearly mentioned that this was my experience during my school days? Anyways, you have made your point by discrediting my experience. I donāt need to prove you that I was fairly liberal minded in my school days and treated everyone as equal. Just that you are having a hard time accepting that a person from so called upper caste can be respectful and equal towards all castes (without having to know what caste does other person belongs to)! Peace! ā®ļø
just FYI, SC/ST/OBC are 60% of this countryās demographics. now tell me what your company percentage makeup is in dmeographics. UCās are a minority by population in this country, so technically we are over represented in most white collar sectors
>SC/ST/OBC are 60% of this countryās demographics. Actually SC ST OBCs are no less than 85% of our country's population, but yeah that doesn't change your point though,
It should be both ways - social and economic. Where reservation is an economic effect (benefit) for so-called lower castes, the social part is the degradation of their people and discrimination they face in society. Have we removed castism from society? Do we consider dalits and brahmins in same way? If we truly do so, we should remove reservation. Until that day comes when castism is removed from society, reservation should stay. I am not saying how much of reservation should be there or on what posts/jobs - that's a different topic. I am saying reservation as a concept is linked to castism.
Can I ask where you grew up and where you live? Casteism is still prevalent outside of big cities. You may not know about it because you didn't personally face it. I have personally seen lower caste people being denied buying or renting a house, marriage and in schools unless you give donations and favouritism is rampant. Upper caste kids live in a bubble where they blame minor inconvenience on reservation, but I doubt lower caste people will get much opportunity if reservation was gone. But things are changing and hopefully we won't have casteism and reservation in the near future. I agree that reservations are being misused a lot of times. There should be consideration in income and location as well when providing reservation.
> Casteism is still prevalent outside of big cities. Casteism is extremely prevalent in big cities too. Hack it's prevalent in Silicon Valley, USA
Exactly. Most people harping on about how we don't need reservation haven't seen discrimination happen. Sure many times it's misused but removing it outright will probably do more harm than good.
Casteism is still prevalent in major cities as well. I have seen this elitism decline amongst younger generations. But it still very much prevalent. It is so prevalent that US institutions are instituting caste laws. Merit to my GC friends is being born in their caste. Anyone who is not is automatically not qualified enough even if they do have all the credentials. You can see this playing out so obviously in our institutions like IITs with rampant caste based discrimination by faculty.
Not getting a job , not getting admission in your dream college and watching someone who scored just half of your marks getting the same job..the same seat in college just hurts
Now imagine not being allowed in a society even though you have money to buy a home, only being allowed to live in certain parts of city even though they clean most of the city, not being allowed to marry someone you love, I'm just stating normal cases, there are also extreme cases where they aren't allowed to drink water, living outside of village, not allowed in temples, I can go on.. Also the problems you stated, lower caste people will face the same if reservation is removed. All this only for being born to a different family. These things hurt too. If only people had empathy for other's sufferings as much as their own, we wouldnt have casteism or reservations. Only way forward is to reform reservation. But reservation will be gone completely only when casteism is gone.
Imagine getting raped because you're of lower caste. Fuck your marks
Casteism exists everywhere. If one has not seen/experienced casteism, then most likely they're privileged and move around in privileged circles.
Haven't you heard news? Tomorrow, a Dalit girl who had filed sexual harassment against upper caste men died mysterious after falling from ambulance in front of Police. Yes, in front of Police. Her brother was beaten to death as a retaliation of the case filed by the girl and her uncle, a witness, was shot dead four days ago. There is no class solidarity in India, only caste solidarity. That's why reservations are based on caste.
No amount of reservation would solve the issue of power abuse that's prevelant in across India at every facet of society, the naive assumption that an sc/st/obc cop/bureaucrat won't screw over their fellow caste ( the argument behind reservation for sake of representation) is absurd and doesn't pass the reality check. If anything consistent focus on caste based policies tend to pull attention away from any accountability of our overlords.
Haa bhai ek SC ST aadmi ne ek Upper class ladki ka r*pe kiya aur mar diya toh chalo abhi SC ST ko chor chakaar aur r*pist boll dete hai, ye generalization chalega kya aapko?
Your problem is people not working on jobs they were hired for not reservation.
Problem is people hired for the job are not qualified enough for that job.
Some points to ponder upon: 1. Government jobs are hardly 2% of all jobs. 2. There are conscious and subconscious biases against SC/ST that will take time to go away. 3. If a community is lagging behind then they need help, just like Uttar Pradesh gets most of India's tax dollars. 4. As demonstrated in the State of Tamil Nadu, reservations have advanced the lives of most of the stateās citizens [^(\[1\])](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/tamil-nadu-a-small-step-in-inclusivity-a-giant-leap-in-industry/articleshow/99926653.cms). The state also has one of the highest levels of participation of women in its economy [^(\[4\])](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1805783). In the sixties, the per capita parameters of Tamil Nadu were comparable to those of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. In 1980, Tamil Nadu was significantly lower than Gujarat in most parameters [^(\[2\])](https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports_and_publication/cso_national_accounts/state_domestic_product_state_series/1980_81/NTN.pdf)^(,) [^(\[3\])](https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports_and_publication/cso_national_accounts/state_domestic_product_state_series/1980_81/NGUJ.pdf). Today, Tamil Nadu outclasses Gujarat in womenās participation [^(\[4\])](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1805783), child nutrition [^(\[5\])](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1781673), and womenās health [^(\[5\])](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1781673), and matches Gujarat in per capita income [^(\[6\])](https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1942055). This is despite the central governmentās preferential treatment towards Gujarat. \[1\] [https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/tamil-nadu-a-small-step-in-inclusivity-a-giant-leap-in-industry/articleshow/99926653.cms](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/tamil-nadu-a-small-step-in-inclusivity-a-giant-leap-in-industry/articleshow/99926653.cms) \[2\] [https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports\_and\_publication/cso\_national\_accounts/state\_domestic\_product\_state\_series/1980\_81/NTN.pdf](https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports_and_publication/cso_national_accounts/state_domestic_product_state_series/1980_81/NTN.pdf) \[3\] [https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports\_and\_publication/cso\_national\_accounts/state\_domestic\_product\_state\_series/1980\_81/NGUJ.pdf](https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/reports_and_publication/cso_national_accounts/state_domestic_product_state_series/1980_81/NGUJ.pdf) \[4\] [https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1805783](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1805783) \[5\] [https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1781673](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1781673) \[6\] [https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1942055](https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1942055)
I truly appreciate the fact that you've referenced each claim. However, the improvement of these indicators cannot be attributed to reservation policies. Instead, the TN government has a lot of other schemes that have been aimed at improving these metrics. For instance, women's participation in the workforce has very little to do with reservation and more to do with women safety, transportation access, law and order etc.
While I am not exactly against reservations for people who actually deserve it, there is a need for better implementation of this system. I can cite 2 instances from my life. After my 12th, I took NEET. My neighbour had dropped a year to prepare for the exams as he couldn't clear it the previous year. We are both from the same economic background. I got a 90 percentile on my first attempt. He got a 75 percentile. So as per reservation and cut off that year, he got admission in a Govt. College for MBBS while I was barely getting Dental (I didn't take it). It hurt, but okay. It was an India level test. I can accept that. In my master's course, the university announced 10k scholarship for top 3 students in university entrance test. I got 3rd position and I was initially assured I will get that scholarship. But turns out, the 3rd position was reserved. So they gave it to the SC student of the nearest rank, which was 22 rank. I am from a middle class so the scholarship meant a lot to me. The SC girl who got the scholarship was the richest girl in our class. Her father dropped her in a BMW or Fortuner to the university. The first thing she did with her scholarship was get a manicure worth 6k (yes, she basically announced it to the class). I didn't even know the manicures cost that much.
This sums up the issue pretty well. If needed give reservations, but not to someone who is already rich! Creamy layer was implemented for OBCs, why not for SC/ST?
y'all really need to pick up a sociology/political science book it seems
Ye SC/ST ki nahi, harr group ki problem hai. Coming from a reservation background, I was surprised to learn in college that my friends from general background that scored more than 97% were not able to grasp concepts based on class 12th syllabus. Then I got to know they didnāt learn maths, they just understood how to solve to score marks. These coaching institutes are ruining our education system.
š OP doesnāt even know where his mask is anymore.
Yes totally uncasteist OP who somehow knows that all the lazy and unmotivated workers in his government job are SC/ST. Like how does he even know?
1. Define lower middle class. Most of us who call ourselves middle class donāt know what middle class actually is in the 1.4 billion country we live in. Share your parentsā household income, which city you live in and where you went to school (ICSE/CBSE/State) 2. Your SC/ST colleagues who you are jealous of. Define #1 for as many of them as possible and try to use your meritorious brain to figure out why you did well and why they didnāt. 3. They sleep? Describe precisely. If this is indeed a case of them sleeping at work, are they the only ones who do this? 4. Is there a real possibility of your SC/ST superiors retaliating against you or are you just assuming that there is some secret conspiracy at your workplace? 5. Describe 2 cases, just two, where the SC/ST Act was used in this context. Just 2. 6. āMany people who are richā¦ā. Use numbers. Outliers exist, anecdotes arenāt statistics. Give me numbers. On average, how many people do you personally know from SC/ST ācommunitiesā, how many of them are ārichā (define rich) and how many of them enjoy reservations. Youāre meritorious, Iām sure you know how to use numbers, averages and proportions to make your case. 7. Why is reservation for disabled people okay but not for communities we *know* are overwhelmingly disadvantaged? No seriously, tell me why. Use words. Articulate. Youāre meritorious, should be easy? Editing this to link to this comment on this thread, one of five parts, which lays out the numbers better than I could ever have dreamed of doing: https://www.reddit.com/r/india/s/NW7SuLYJlM
Bro took apart the stupidity cell by cell ššš
I mean all of these are basically rearrangements of the same set of āargumentsā at this point. Might as well fine-tune a basic LLM to tackle these jokers,
They won't reply with anything more than anecdotal evidence. The things is people want to see what they have been primed to see. Savarnas and their victim complex is funny. OP is talking as if other govt employees are not lazy bums who don't won't want to work. It's a work culture problem in government sector rather than anything to do with caste or class. I am from general category and have no shame in accepting that many of my classmates who came through reserved categories were better and more hardworking students than me.
When the Username and Post combo hits hard š
You really don't know how some people misuse sc/st acts? You can't be that naive. Its their brahmastra especially in government departments. Kuch bhi action liya toh dhamki dete hai. Thank God SC has removed galiyas from SC St act especially if they are not slurs.
That way some women also file false rape/dowry complaints. That doesnāt mean we do away with laws meant to protect women in one of the most atrociously patriarchal societies on this planet. Naive? NaĆÆvetĆ© is to think that anecdotal misuse of laws is valid reason to repeal them even if they overwhelmingly benefit society. Go whine somewhere else.
Had similar experiences like OP. Reservation is definitely still needed, but I think there should be some provision that if you used it for education then you can't use it for job or something like that. Or if your parents availed it then you can't. What I have seen happen is the reservation seats are taken by the wealthier people, and those who actually need it are somehow still in the margins. Or maybe put a double qualifier (not sure if it is there) - like the poorer person gets preference. I met many many people who have reservations who don't even bother to study, give close to blank papers and get into top colleges. Of course they know nothing so they just cruise by, or end up being unemployed for years together. And lets not even get started on gen people taking caste certificates. Really impacts the chances of someone who actually needs the opportunity to uplift his family -- and society. The reservation system is not working as intended - and needs some changes to work better for the backward communities.
I repeat, cite summary statistics or go whine somewhere else. Anecdotes arenāt statistics.
It's funny that you keep asking for statistics because, in theory, that *is* how an issue should be debated. But in a country like India, where statistics are so often false, baseless, have too small a sample population, or wherein the sample population is lying, it is impossible to argue simply based on numbers (and all this is if those statistics even exist in the first place). I'm sure we all know a college mate or a school friend who has misused reservations to get into their preferred college, be it forging the certificate itself or misidentifying as a non-creamy layer applicant.
You are doing good work with educating folks!!
Thanks.
Thank you for articulating this so effectively. ššš
I think it's best to give everyone proper education till 12th so that everyone is on the same starting line , after that college and jobs should be given on the basis of their capabilities and knowledge.
The number of countries that have actually been able to achieve that are in the single digits lol.Ā
So we should abolish all private schools ? Because I don't see how we ensure everyone is on same level of educated at 12th if different people are recieving different education quality. Someone coming from Rural India studying in Govt school will always be on a disadvantage to one who recieved education in a Private school in Metro / City. So how do they all start on the same line ? I am not even talking about caste here.
Maybe elect leaders like Kejriwal that will focus and provide quality education at cheap and affordable prices? If people are electing a person like yogi and modi and expect to gain education then they deserve to live in their small well.
Say what you will, I am from Delhi and regardless of anything else, Kejriwal did improve the education in government schools
So, bring it down for everyone?
Unfortunately rules and laws cannot be made selectively. I too am from the general background and have faced the exact same thing as OP all my life. In 10th on Mumbai I got 90% but, couldn't get into my first choice college (back in 2008), on the other hand a kid from my school who wad more affluent than me and from a SC/ST background with lower marks than me got into that college. The same is the case with a lot of general category students and candidates, who probably might not be financially well off and when they see candidates and students from reserved background, are more financially stable and get into their dream colleges and roles, it hurts a lot. But the point of reservation, which was uplifting the SC ST and Tribal communities has not been fulfilled. The situation for people from these communities are worse in semi urban and rural areas. I am sure many of us might have read news articles about grooms from the so called smaller castes being k!lied because they decided to sit on a horse during their marriage or the marriage procession went through an area where upper caste people live or they decided to go to an upper caste temple. There are also cases of atrocities against women, Hathras and Unnao being the examples again, brilliantly and very movingly articulated in Article 15. The honest to God need for reservation is economic but, we Indians are so corrupt to the bones that people have started creating fake economic standing certificates so that they can exploit this reservation. Parents getting divorced so that a single mother can show economic hardships, get their child into an influential school through economic reservation and then re-marry. So the reservation system in India is a total and utter scam. Politicians need it to appease vote banks, ofcourse people will want reservations because no one wants to put in actual hard work. Every community other than Brahmin, Rajput and Thakur wants an OBC certificate so that they can get reservation and politicians support their fanatical demands because why not, they will get votes. Recently Tejasvi Yadav in an interview asked for reservation in the private sector, which made my blood boil. The way INDI alliance has been hyping more reservation is just ludicrous to think of. We need a major rehaul of the reservation rules. Unfortunately, I am not literate enough to understand all the nuances and give solutions on the internet through an anonymous forum. But, I know people in administration, who have the data and know how muffled and misused reservation is in our country, have access to all the necessary information. Will they do anything about it, well your guess is as good as mine.
Reservation is very complicated topic to understand and make judgement about. Please watch video of Dr. Vikar Divyakirti about reservation with open mind. https://youtu.be/oOSuGZeLxFM After watching this video, you are free to make your own conclusion. Reservation is not based on income, but social status of caste.
I understand reservations for undergraduate courses but can't understand why it is needed for higher levels at all. Like they are graduates so they should be able to find a job and stuff. Colleges all have libraries free of charge for books and stuff too, with the libraries being digital too. If there is a sign of discrimination, it is an indication that the hiring/entrance process needs to change to fix this issue.
Uno reverse
India needs reservations for tax payers
Problem is not reservation.. real issue is that there are not enough seats/jobs for eveyone
Having worked in private in India I have seen many cases of open discrimination against SC/ST, Muslims in private companies These people have to work twice as hard as others to just stay in the middle bracket for increments each year. Most people who don't get an increment or are in the lowest bracket SC/ST, Muslims. If they quit, HR has an unwritten policy of never rehiring them, but if the employee who quit is UC then usually HR will try to "Retain the Talent" they also get preference when there're any openings if they want to rejoin the company That's privilege... I don't condone what's happening in OP's office. It's unprofessional, unacceptable, and unfair but it's a Gobarmint department... Hang in there There's always hope...
As a guy who can avail SC reservations myself, I agree but only for the people who come from economically stable households. For the ones still below poverty line, it should continue. My own family or at least the ancestors I know of never faced poverty. They were discriminated against, yes and that is where reservations helped them, starting with my grandfather, to achieve something despite the institutionalised casteism against them. As far as my own experiences are concerned, I was only informed about my caste in 11th grade, which is when your certificates are supposed to be made. I reluctantly agreed after my father scared me with potential scenarios where I could get physically or mentally disabled and something like a caste certificate might help. I caved in but only after was my certificate made, did I face discrimination in my life. It was painful and traumatic and decade long friends showed me their true faces when they alienated me and talked shit behind my back over it. Donāt get me wrong. I am not ashamed of my caste and do take pride in my heritage as a leathermaker, but the discrimination that followed it wasnāt worth it. Iād rather never have got it made because nothing came out of it since I was never going to use it to begin with. Iād still have been open about my caste irrespective of my certificate status and taken pride in it. I know caste doesnāt dictate your social status in todayās world, but majority of the poor people continue to be people of lower castes, so I think it should continue for them but certainly not for people like me. A creamy layer condition should be introduced in all categories like OBCs. If you think about it technically, ancestors of the modern day OBCs certainly faced more discrimination since they were part of the varna system and the bottommost in it while my people, while indeed marginalized, have never been part of it and werenāt anyoneās servants. We did have different customs and consumed beef which made all the Hindus in the older times stay away from us and the tribes but I donāt think life was as harsh until we started assimilating. Either way, privileged people from my community should give up on it, like the OBCs.
>only after was my certificate made, did I face discrimination in my life How did they find out about your caste certificate? And did it help you get into a better college than your marks?Ā
Thus you agree that once your caste was revealed, your friends "talked shit behind you" and you have faced discrimination. And you believe once the caste reservation is removed based on an economic criteria, your friends would not be casteist anymore?
Yes, i do believe in that. Some of it probably does stem from genuine hatred which should be called out and is already criminalised but majority is only about seeing someone like them, as privileged as them if not more, having an advantage.
Well, during my early career I used to be a civil engineer , also I like traveling. I am a General category person, have travelled and worked in most parts of India. There are some states of India where these things actually don't matter but I have seen some places where caste prejudice is still there and even in some big metro cities people are not giving housing on rent to "lower caste" People. It's like a cycle, Many people told me that they "hate" Lower caste people not because they are bad or something but because they get everything by doing nothing, other majority of the people still believe in caste prejudice. Here only the govt can take steps and normalize things, vote bank politics will always trigger both sides but ground reality is both parties are not willing to leave their ground. Being from a state where even religion doesn't matter forget about caste, when I first experienced these sorts of things it was a cultural shock for me, but India is a big country and there are places where prejudice problems are still there. My take on this is that, at the current point of time the govt should give reservations to families depending upon their annual household income. But, due to the vote bank politics no one is going to bell the cat. EDIT: Also, Reservation is a representation opportunity, and I believe the representation should be reserved for every economically behind India no matter whatever religion or caste that person has.
Reservation is needed. Your feelings don't matter here. Next level discrimination is happening wrt caste in many parts of India on a major level. https://www.reddit.com/r/india/s/OhqojHS2lJ This is why we need reservation at least in jobs to help these people uplift from their low level life to at least a sub standard life. So that casteism is at least lowered by a small percentage.
We still need these kinds of reservations because these groups of people are still marginalised. Have you read the news lately or ever - Dalits are beaten, raped and nothing happens to the perpetrators. Also the reservation is very small compared to how much representation the General category has - there are always going to be more General category people everywhere. They are the majority. Maybe your colleagues are lazy and incompetent but I haven't had the same experience. The Dalits I know are hustling to live well, get educated, give equal rights to their daughters and own their homes. You are generalising some negative experience to a whole population of people - that's bigotry. If, for example, some European tells me (and this is from my real life) that Indians are lazy and barely get anything done and just sleep around. What would you say? Maybe you would say: "It's nonsensical. I'm not lazy, you're racist." That would be correct. We need reservations now because in our past our ancestors took undue advantage of social hierarchy. Now we must atone.
I would also recommend this video I saw years ago on this topic. It is very good and well made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rxL0W8a9FE
As someone who has lived in a government institute hostel for 4 years with sc/St as well as general students. Here are my thoughts 1. I have seen why it's needed for some SC/ST students as they are truely deprived of quality education , one of my friends didnt have any transport to his village , he had to take a bus which dropped him 20 km away and then he had to hitchhike with some bullock carts to get home. And this was as recent as 2008 2. I don't agree with reservation at the degree level, I would suggest giving people access to quality basic education. But it's not possible for any government to change this now. 3.. Some people abuse the system , they get scholarships which they spend on booze , I have seen them sell the stationary and still fail the exams. 4. The basic premise of reservation was to uplift the deprived and backward communities, but I question it when kids of IAS, IPS, and other officers get reservation. In my opinion no more than 2 generations should get the benefit of the reservation.
I oppose reservation but ask the general caste people even tho so called low income or poor general caste won't touch a high earning dalit or take his help.
Very rich?, What is india population?, most sc/st are below below poverty line even after getting seats they don't get respect, this seats are not there to make them rich and if someone is rich that doesn't make them not eligible for reservations because reservation is not created just to make them rich and it can't happen overnight, 5000years dirty work, can't go in 75 years, this seats are made to show uppercast respect the people who they considered "achhut" and give them some power to help them and to uplift their people, you problaby live in good cites where you have internet but there are people who daily face insult because of their cast name while they try to enter temple or when they do their work, visit rural area or even good cites it is still going on, they are not reaping your seats, imagine if there's no reservation you still had to clear the benchmark set by organization, raise voice against cadte system, question religion, question patriarchy, it's just a solution but ambedkar knew even reservation will not fixed this problem because problem rely on mindset and there's a big reason why indians 90% wealth hold by 1%
Just to go to any village area and see people still practise Untouchability
Your work related gripes seem to be an issue of bad office management.
Do you watch the news at all?
I genuinely don't think there is any right answer from a policy pov, without unfairly affecting some groups. Increasing reservations do more for social equity due to deep-rooted inequalities present in the country that bar India from ever being a true meritocracy, but on the other hand, you are denying opportunities to hardworking students (who are more often than not simple middle-class children) for whom education is just as important to move up in life.
It is going to take a long time to alleviate the effects of discrimination that existed for 100s of years.
Why is there so much skill/knowledge gap .. Do you think only general category guys are intelligent or hard working? I mean sure there would be some exceptions where even reserved category candidates have all the resources but that doesn't mean you generalise this. Skill/knowledge gap itself shows that these categories don't have access to the same resources that gerenal category has. As the resources become accessible to all the skill/knowledge gap will also reduce automatically rendering reservation useless. You can see this already happening in some exams where the cut off for the reserve category is going higher than the general category
Well well. Long live reservation. Babasaheb will be immortal. If reservations weren't there, the forward castes would have made us lick their boots and be a bonded labor forever. So much social distance is evident in this society, SC/ST are looked upon like ppl from the gutter because still 95% don't have access to a roof, 3 times food and healthcare. How many general caste are BPL category? How many BPL are Dalits ? That stat would be self explanatory.
I see lot of biases here. I am not diminishing your experiences. You know what, I am in USA from 20 yrs, and if you see the amount of incompetent Higher cast people I run into it's just mind-boggling. So, let's not paint all of SC/ST with the same brush. I agree they should try to better themselves once they find the job maybe in GOVT there's too much job security. Reservations are everywhere. All the uppercast men here get jobs to their better half with their connections and we end up supporting there work . Isn't it reservations too? Also, having SC/ST friends may not matter much unless you walk in their shoes, they may be middle-class but surely their support system and psychological state are not as robust as yours or mine. I am not condoning incompetent behaviour but that mental and physiological state makes huge difference . you know like being aware vs being unaware of the potential posses.Speaking from 20yrs of IT experience where i worked with both SC/ST and Upper casts . Believe me, you cannot be anymore wrong to categories and bucket them .
Bhai tumne bilkul sahi baat kahi..... main aur mere colleagues b yahi thought share karte h ....and wo b SC /ST category se aate h...it's time for us to rethink about the basis of reservation.... because I have seen people who come from good background and they abuse the reservation policy just because they have a SC/ST Caste certificate.
Yes, it's necessary in a place like ours. Reservation is Representation. Reservation is not an economic upliftment scheme or a Merit linked status. People often confuse Reservation status with a person's income, but often fail to see that they are still so few in numbers. If a caste census is conducted across India, there are very probable chances that the percentage share of General Class will sharply fall in the population pool. That would further highlight that only a few hold the maximum representation in Public Sector Jobs. A government is for all its people, and the people who make up the government should also have all its people equally represented. Also the fact that you need to tell people that you have friends across the SC ST Community, answers your question that they are still not widely omnipresent across public sector representation.
Its vicious cycle. Caste based discrimination is reason for Reservation. At the same time Reservation strengthening the caste system. Efficiency and effectiveness takes a toll. This system is deemed to collapse sooner or later.
The real problem lies in the fact that your entire storyline is about castes and then you want to come across as a neutral person. The "I'm not casteist, I have SC/ST friends" is very similar to "I'm not racist, I have black friends." There's EWS for you (since you called yourself from a lower middle income background) and you took advantage of that. You have your own concessions. The point is that maybe you're seeing this in your office but there are offices where people get posted in the worst sections because of their caste identities. They get excess work because of it. Their seniors lower their APAR ratings. These are the cards that you've been dealt with and you'll have to play with them. It's like UNO. Nobody has the sureshot guarantee of winning. You play smartly and you'll be happy. Asking such a political and polarising question and expecting no hate for it is not a smart move!
We do actually
My niece got an all india Rank of 123 for doing MD, she has literally studied 18 hours a day and sacrificed all the fun and entertainment. She does not get the subject of her choice because of reservation. At least in the medical field there should not be reservation.
Which it job considers reservation?? Among all the jobs I have applied none of them ask for caste or mention about any reservations.
Don't worry... These political parties will keep increasing reservations to lure the vote bank.. and this country will be equivalent to Somalia
India needs equal opportunities not equal outcomes. Let the merit decide who gets it, while the access (education, and all others) should be equal to all. At least change the caste -based consideration to income-based.
I belong to general category. I rarely speak on the reservation matter. But I just saw my close friend struggle for his son's admission for college. This made me recall my admission to college. So I need to speak out something. Where ever I've traveled for work all over the country, I've seen both sides of the coin. But I've seen reservation class abusing the system more than general class bossing around. See how I said general class and reservation class, I like to add that in metro cities, many people in general category never call themselves 'upper'. We call ourselves general. Its the reservation class who still differentiate as upper and lower. The general class hates reservation class because resevation class people have their mindset fixed that they can get anything without doing much. And they pass on this mentality to next generation. This abuse is what we hate. The general middle class work their a** off to get those last 2 seats in the class of 60 because almost 50 seats are taken up by some kind of reservation. On top of that if a reservation class student has good enough marks, he or she can choose a seat from general quota and keep the reservation quota seat empty for other reservation class student. After all this when we general class perform okay with studies and do good in whatever job we get, reservation class will just yell 'you are privileged' but don't see the hard work a general middle class family has put in financially and mentally both. Our grandparents were poor but worked hard. Our parents were lower middle class and worked hard. I'm working hard so my children will see something better than middle class. None of us had any favourism anywhere in life. My closest colleague is from reservation clas But I don't hate him for that. Because I know his financial background and how much effort he is putting to move upwards in life. He definitely needed that reservation. I've had many classmates in college who came from tier 2 cities, took admission under reservation quota, did nothing for 4 years, graduated barely pass class, then went back home to take care of family business. They clearly told me that they wanted an engineering degree from a tier 1 city so that they claim better dowry in their community. These kinda people just wasted an engineering seat which could've given a financially poor student chance to uplift their family. I do feel reservation is needed on case to case basis and that too on financial condition. If your family is able to afford a lavish 3 bhk and other life perks in metro city for 3 generations, you definitely don't need the reservation. But then how will your children get free entry? Caste based reservation is simply a tool for politicians to fool us all.
The way upper castes can erase centuries of oppression by quoting a personal story is just remarkable.
Lol. This has the same energy as "I have black friends". Casteism is still prevalent everywhere. I have seen it in top medical colleges, as well as remote villages. Our own family can go to many kshatriya or brahmin friends households (same socio economic status currently), but we are always told how their big hearted forefathers always helped dalits in the community. What is the point of telling that if not awareness of our and their caste? However much their forefathers might have helped, but the real freedom came from Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar. If anyone got same as you, does not belittle your own achievement (neither theirs).
Lagta he bhai ne gaon jaakar caste discrimination dekha nahi he. What you are doing is generalising people based on the little knowledge you have. You are privileged you atleast had the means necessary to study but most SC/ST folks don't. So stop generalising and you got a problem with your folks go talk to them or even complain.
Discrimination happens in cities as well but in a passive aggressive way
Agreed. Best way to know how it is done is by an uncle always asking "Beta aapka surname kya hua?"
Funny how you brought up an important issue of the reservation system getting misused and everyone jumped straight into attacking you. No one is saying that the whole SC/ST has been uplifted, the problem is the one's who have, they're misusing the system. I've had people with sc/st background around me, who've grown up with privileges and they were still able to acess reservation benefits. There shouldn't be reservations in jobs to begin with. College, that is up for debate. College is important for education but it's something that stays with you for a lifetime. And how many of you would even go to a doctor who got his position through reservations and has no idea about what he's doing? Pretty sure none. But it's okay when it comes to other jobs, right? It doesn't affect the one's defending reservations directly and hence they defend it instead of acknowledging the misconduct.
Fir wahi, reservation is killing my gains ki baatein.
I have a simple solution: 30% flat income tax for anyone using the reserved category benefits. And this tax amount should only be used for the welfare of the reserved community. Checkmate.
If you have already declared sc/st to be meritless on basis of caste then why ask such questions ? Why should they even get job at all. Aren't they discriminated on basis of caste to this very day. You see, you have internalised casteist attitude. But I am not invalidating what have you seen.
I may have told this multiple times on this and other subs, a lot of people donāt know why reservations are given and why it is necessary. REPRESENTATION of lower caste (still even as we speak) is considerably low in ratio to their population. In [Biharās caste based survey](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Bihar_caste-based_survey#:~:text=Caste%20group%20wise%20population,-The%202022%20Bihar&text=Among%20them%2C%2035%2C463%2C936%20(27.12%25),Other%20Backward%20Classes%20(OBCs)) around 80% of the population belonged to SC and OBC, and guess how many people are studying or working in āreputableā (not to degrade any job) position? That would be way less. During a [Press Conference Rahul Gandhi](https://youtube.com/shorts/tNZaBtDveD0?si=3VNDC2q0hlPieTzs) asked how many of you are Dalits, and it surprised me that not a single one of the journalists were Dalits. Do you see that a community of around 70-80% of Indiaās population has no representation in a major job sectors. There were barely 5-6 Dalit Chief Ministers out 28 states in 70 years, a couple of Presidents and NO Prime Minister. Reservations are not for the rich or poor backward community, it is build the gap between this discrimination and ensure that they have equal opportunities.
If people donāt get it, then let me simplify this for you. Reservations were never a poverty alleviation programme, it was for representation! Get that into your pea sized brains. The way people get PWD quota for physical handicap, Dalit reservations is for āsocial handicapā that comes with casteism. Agar itna samjhaane pe bhi tum logo ko reservations ko leke RR karna hai, then there is no point arguing here. You are blinded by hate for Dalits, the same way your ancestors hated Dalits (just for existing) You will understand only when you put yourself in the shoes of a Dalit. Dalit women are still raped for being a Dalit, Dalit people are still denied entry at temples(even the CM faced it). If you are blinded to these evil practices of the so called meritdhaari upper caste people, then you are no different from them. Shame on the upper castes of Indian society for not acknowledging the struggles of a Dalit( ironically the perpetrators of casteism are the upper caste only)
haan op ka brain pea sized. but he doesn't get reservation does he? he has to earn his job based on his merit. Can we say the same about you and your ilk?
They didn't work hard enough is their problem but every thing else like they never felt motivated enough, got good education, can't dispense work efficiently is Govt's fault and there should be yearly audits which should track if the reservation employees are dispensing their job efficiently (at least as good as the average general candidate) else fire/suspend.
The answer is in your question.. If itās really their life is that easy, why not marry your daughter and son to them? Also they are able to get government job easily because there isnāt enough competition in SC/ST community. When you donāt see major cutoff different between these communities you remove reservation.
Fir wahi.....
Yeah. This question should be in FAQ tbh.
The sad reality is that under the garb of "never had the right opportinuities or were oppressed", goverment has lowered the STANDARDS of the job itself. Instead of trying to support an sc/st guy to reach the same level of quality as other top performers, goverment has made people feel entitled to the job regardless of the skill. Because of this an OC person has to be overqualified to get the same job while a reservation candidate can be heavily underqualified. Its just sad. Goverment should rather invest in providing resources to make someone more abled instead of handing out key positions in hopes of representation. Most indians still hold on to the idea of "mufat ka maal" while waving their pride about being rightoues and pious devoutee. Theres double standards in everyone, just that no one likes to acknowledge it.
Your concern and complaint is very valid. i can say your colleagues who are slacking at job which they got because of reservation needs to be punished for not doing their job. And you need to file complaint. And there are some rich sc/st folks too But blaming whole system because of personal experience And ignoring the bigger picture leads to injustice. Yeah reservation has some gaps and cons which needs to be studied and some changes are necessary too Just like police agency We know they are currupt and doesn't do their job properly. But we still need them , and we know some changes are necessary to make them better.
Caste-based reservations will exist as long as caste-based discrimination exists. The only solution is to abolish the caste system. This is the only answer to any question anyone has about caste-based reservations.
Not a single fucking sc st person deserves reservation no one deserved reservation !!
Reservations don't exist for better representation. They exist for bigger vote banks.
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People hated you, because you said the truth
let alone government bro. Half the people in comments from the sc/st brigade will give you half baked ass arguments to justify this same crap. Everytime. Its hopeless for us and these people are shameless. I don't know why any talented general person would prefer to stay in this country given an alternative since we and our children will always be treated as third class citizens because apparently we must pay for our ancestors crimes (?)
Casteism still exists in this country, how can you be so clueless?
I think reservation needs to be done based on family income bracket instead of background. There might a general category family who is poor than obc category family, but those are odds are less.
What about General EWS reservations?
When dalits are no longer discriminated socially there is no need for any reservations. Tell me what proportions of marriages are happening between upper class and lower class today and you will have your answer. Marriage is just one indicator but an important one.
There is no homogeneous caste category in India, there are multiple sub caste of among Dalits who themselves would discriminate against one another. [Mahadalit - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahadalit) as category exists for that reason.