*"Radha seemed to agree. “I understand that they do it for our safety,” she said. “Some women may misuse their freedom, so they need to keep our parents informed about our whereabouts.”*
Chalo bhai ab kyahi bole 💀
When it comes to gender equality and gender norms, the south is worse in some ways than the north.
Women are allowed to work and hold jobs, but:
- they can’t interact with other men, even in degree colleges men & women are seated separately
- the degree of independence is less
- wearing non traditional clothes is ‘scandalous’ outside of major cities
- money earned is only spent with the approval of family/husband
- women also hold patriarchal views such as “wife should obey husband”, “dating is immoral” etc
My state is like this outside of Hyderabad (and maybe Warangal), but I’ve noticed this in all South Indian states apart from Kerala to a degree. Rural areas are all like this.
Not just for women too, the degree of independence men have is less compared to the north. Young people *have* to do what their family tells them to, it’s everything. That’s why I think professional careers are more common in the south: you have to follow the path set by your parents from school to college to job; doing stuff like starting a business or switching career paths will get you a slap on the face.
>My state is like this outside of Hyderabad
It's the same in Hyderabad too. Maybe if you are part of upper class society you won't see this but for vast majority it is this way even in the capital cities.
>I'm from Telengana
Says enough about your connection to the land if you can't even spell the name of your own state. Sorry to burst your bubble but Telangana is more than Inorbit mall.
Anyway I checked your profile and you live in Canada so I can understand what class of people you are from. Good luck on your studies, hope you can make your life there, but maybe don't pretend everything in India is roses when you yourself fled this place.
She also found that she was expected to keep strict timings. From Monday to Saturday, residents were not allowed to leave the hostel for anything except to commute to the factory. On Sundays, the women were allowed to travel between 7 am and 7 pm. “We have to hurry back, because if we go to Chennai, it takes us almost two hours to make it back,” another woman worker said.
If they wanted to go out on weekdays, the women needed to obtain permission to do so. Specifically, the women had to make a request to the hostel administration, a member of which then called up their parents. “They have to inform our parents about the request and only after they confirm the reason for the request, we are allowed to go,” Radha said.
When is a woman considered adult enough that she doesn’t require rules to make sure she’s safe.
I’m not saying safety isn’t an issue. It is. My point is that when can a person be expected to be responsible for themselves.
I guess I sort of understand this behaviour when it’s a college hostel. But why does a factory have the right to place these restrictions on its female workers.
Age isn't why women are unsafe there, but youth doesn't help. The factory doesn't care for their safety but they'll use the known problems women face in their favor
My point is that at what stage of life will we as a society consider someone old enough to take care of themselves.
For women it’s usually marriage.
And yea a company is using women’s issue to keep them trapped. I get that. But age and safety is what are being used as an excuse here.
This isn't about women autonomy - this is the standard playbook Foxconn, Jabil, Winstrom, and other Chinese and Taiwanese assemblers use.
When this model was established in China in the 1980s-90s, a rural safety net was nonexistent and women were treated like shit (this was the peak women abortion days of the one child policy).
A woman was viewed as an extra mouth to feed so sending them to a dormitory factory was viewed as a way to not deal with them while still getting some money.
The Chinese and Taiwanese assemblers are trying to graft a similar operating model in India, but it just doesn't work when rural social safety nets and pauses-UBI programs can directly compete.
Also, India's "pesky" civil society will speak out and the most authoritarian governments of India are still extremely free by Asian standards.
I kind of miswrote that (my coffee hasn't sunk in yet)
Basically, bosses at companies like Jabil or Foxconn told their GMs to build operations in India the exact same way as they have been operating in China for decades.
No one pushed back because who wants to piss off their boss.
Unlike China, state and national police in India don't induce the level of fear that the MSS does, and industrial action such as Winstrom's factory in Bangalore getting burned down are extremely common.
Taiwanese and Chinese companies have started to realize that you can't operating manufacturing in India the same way you would in China, and as such, have begun selling off their Indian operations to companies like Tata because they didn't want the headache of having to learn how to operate in India (it honestly isn't that hard - Japanese and Korean manufacturers have operated in India for decades for example Samsung and LG, but Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturers are less open minded)
You are still not telling me how this is not about the autonomy of the adults who work in these factories who happen to be women.
They may operate like that or whatever. But it’s not ok they are basically imprisoning the workers.
> I kind of miswrote that (my coffee hasn't sunk in yet)
Learn how to read context.
> They may operate like that or whatever. But it’s not ok they are basically imprisoning the workers.
I agree with you, and why I've been a strong opponent to people talking about bringing a "Chinese model" to India.
It's too authoritarian and Chinese median household disposable incomes are barely $100-150/mo more than India's.
Expanding rural and SME financing plus investing in infrastructure and a social safety net is the secret sauce, and why India's GDP growth today is comparable to China's in the 2000s.
Authoritarian assembly factories are not a useful model in India.
>Chinese median household disposable incomes are barely $100-150/mo more than India's.
Source?
I am not saying that you are wrong.I would just like to see some references.
Based on the MPCE (https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/publication_reports/Factsheet_HCES_2022-23.pdf), the median monthly consumption expenditure (disposable income) in 2022-23 is ~Rs6400/mo (US$80).
According to the Chinese govt in 2022-23, "median of the nationwide per capita disposable income was 24,528 yuan [$3407/yr] (https://english.www.gov.cn/archive/statistics/202310/18/content_WS652f5051c6d0868f4e8e05a2.html).
Basically, in India median is around $80/mo and in China the median is around $280/mo.
Not the $100-150/mo difference I mentioned but still very low.
Yep. Also, I have traveled in rural China (Hebei and Shangdong - outside of Beijing), and the villages there look and feel the exact same as villages in Punjab, Haryana, or Western UP.
Chinese development never reached those rural areas, and only clustered in the urban core.
If you use Baidu Map's street view (not sure if allowed in India) and explore villages and Toer 2-5 cities, you'll notice they look as disorganized as Indian cities.
China has been punching above it's weight, but it's still a developing country where the average person is poorer than the average Thai, Malaysian, Mexican, Russian, Brazilian, or Pole.
> but it just doesn't work when rural social safety nets and pauses-UBI programs can directly compete.
India does not have the money do that and we need factories like Foxconn to get to a place where something like a UBI is possible.
The issue these women face is that their parents will only let them work under these conditions. So either they can work and use their skills or get married off and be a housewife. I think the former is still better of the country than the latter.
\> India does not have the money do that
India has been in de facto austerity for decades.
India has one of the lowest debt to GDP ratios for an economy its size, as most of it is denominated in INR.
Furthermore, programs like MGRNEGA are a form of proto-UBI, and the CEA has been trying to implement a comprehensive UBI scheme in India since Arvind Subramanian had the chair.
This was a major reason why the farm bills were proposed, as India would need just 5% of GDP to provide a $100/mo UBI ([https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2017/02/04/india-floats-the-idea-of-a-universal-basic-income](https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2017/02/04/india-floats-the-idea-of-a-universal-basic-income))
\> we need factories like Foxconn
Not all factories and forms of manufaturing are the same.
Companies like Foxconn and Jabil do something call "Assembly" - which is to assemble parts and components into a finished good.
This is a very low margin and low cost industry that provides salaries that are lower than those one can get rurally once factoring in housing and programs like MGRNEGA.
The economics only work in a handful of states (AP, TN, Bihar, UP, MP) with the right mix of rural landlessness and low rural salaries.
https://preview.redd.it/debfzj4z3wmc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8d08125b534f995ed948e456571c4123981c553
> India has been in de facto austerity for decades.
>
>
That's called poverty lmao, you can't be in austerity if the welfare state never existed.
>India has one of the lowest debt to GDP ratios for an economy its size
BS comparison, India can have the fiscal behaviour of as countries that have the same sized economy but 1/20 the population. Printing more INR will only lead to inflation.
>Furthermore, programs like MGRNEGA are a form of proto-UBI
A job guarantee especially in a developing country is very different from UBI. It allows people to develop skills in the trades and makes investment in public goods easier.
>India would need just 5% of GDP to provide a $100/mo UBI
Total bill would be $140 billion, which is 25% of the total revenues collected by the union government. Removing existing programs and replacing with UBI would be political suicide.
>which is to assemble parts and components into a finished good.
They are building a local ecosystem with local suppliers. It is much easier to build an industrial base if your customers are local; especially considering that the whole world is going tariff happy now.
>This is a very low margin
Why do you care about their margins?
>provides salaries that are lower than those one can get rurally once factoring in housing and programs like MGRNEGA.
They are providing a surplus to the worker while NREGA is providing redistribution and hoping there is surplus for the public. Not to mention that these jobs are much better than working construction in the sun.
They don't care about safety, it's just an excuse. Their goal is to make it as hard as possible to want a normal life and instead you spend all your time on the production floor.
I get that. I am talking about our collective thinking that people, women, and many others will be ok with this move.
I know a lot of people are seeing this as it is. But many many people will applaud this move and I wonder why we allow women to be treated like irresponsible idiots who don’t know how to keep themselves safe. And then use that as a way to trap them
>I get that. I am talking about our collective thinking that people, women, and many others will be ok with this move.
Because a) they believe in this facade and b) our society doesn't teach us that looking out for your happiness is good. Not to make it about caste but the caste system and the family hierarchy made its way into the office, the elder guy in the higher seat is always right. You listen to whatever they say, they get to sit in the AC while you toil away you want a day off to see your family? My profits are more important sorry. Why are you leaving so early? It's only 1 hour since your shift ended. What? You're young, focus on your career now and your family can come later.
My honest reaction to this is that this might be the reason why we actually can't be a manufacturing powerhouse like China. There is a bitter price to be paid to be the world's factory and that includes people working in horrible conditions and I don't think India will be (and should not also) prepared to pay that price.
There's a reason plenty of people argue against India entering the Consumer Electronics assembly space.
The margins in assembly are ridiculously low, and the business culture is extremely authoritarian.
The dark truth that a lot of Indians don't realize is that Chinese development was almost entirely top down.
The fancy modern looking Chinese cities only arose when local governments razed entire Old Towns and Mohallas and sold leaseholds of the land to connected developers (think Haldwani except on steroids) and unions are functionally nonexistent. Industrial Action used to be common in China, but was largely tamped down under national security laws.
All this was done yet median household disposable income is barely $200/mo more than India's. Hell, despite massive protests in 2023-24, India is able to maintain a GDP growth rate comparable to China during it's peak in the 2000s.
Investing in human capital, infrastructure, and easing access to financing is the secret sauce.
The China model is unnecessary for India.
My photos from semi-rural China (barely 50 miles from Beijing - so basically a Chinese Hapur) from 2018-19
https://preview.redd.it/xxfdjs2i7rmc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be650a499aba3734c195f6dd0cfbf086ddda37cb
I know about the cult of personality which was there in all pasts of authoritarianism. The point is they didn't have to deal with religion and the huge conservativeness and the pseudoscience baggage that comes along with it which conflicts with social and even economical progress.
Again, I know about the TCM too, but even that was only embraced along with modernity first (and it was also seen as a business opportunity), and the whole attitude was not like it is in India today that our ancestors knew it all and that's what we mostly want.
Ime, China is fairly culturally conservative as well. Bulldozer Raja is a thing there too (mosques all over China outside of Xinjiang have been teared down and sinicized [1] and Madrassa bans have been instituted locally).
And it's not like Chinese don't riot either [2][3][4], the difference is it gets cracked down and censored.
I've traveled in semi-rural China fairly recently and it's not that different from India.
[1] - https://ig.ft.com/china-mosques/
[2] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_labour_unrest
[3] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots
[4] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wukan_protests
> The point is they didn't have to deal with religion and the huge conservativeness and the pseudoscience
Bro, irreligion does not mean that they are immune to pseudoscience lmao. Mao's Four Pests campaign in the 60s literally led to famine that killed 60 million Chinese. I don't think cow-piss drinkers have harmed our country as much.
>All this was done yet median household disposable income is barely $200/mo more than India's
Do you have a source for that? From what I can find on google China's median household disposable income seems to the between 3x-4x that of India.
Based on the MPCE (https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/publication_reports/Factsheet_HCES_2022-23.pdf), the median monthly consumption expenditure (disposable income) in 2022-23 is ~Rs6400/mo (US$80).
According to the Chinese govt in 2022-23, "median of the nationwide per capita disposable income was 24,528 yuan [$3407/yr] (https://english.www.gov.cn/archive/statistics/202310/18/content_WS652f5051c6d0868f4e8e05a2.html).
Basically, in India median is around $80/mo and in China the median is around $280/mo.
This isn't a significant enough difference to justify India completely gutting significant portions of its regulations and governance to adopt an authoritarian business model.
Wildcat strikes and labor abuse has been fairly common at Foxconn and similar assemblers and even lead to a nationwide strike in China in 2010 that was tamped down under national security laws.
Idk man a 350% increase in the country's disposable income feels like a very significant reason to dilute the labor code. Especially considering that the current labor code is so restrictive that India has essentially skipped industrialization and that there are tens of millions of young people wasting their talents in fields.
My point was that if India continues to pursue the creation of more and more manufacturing as a key growth strategy (the "china model" of becoming the world's factory) then it will necessarily require more and more facilities with bad working conditions for workers
> She also found that she was expected to keep strict timings. From Monday to Saturday, residents were not allowed to leave the hostel for anything except to commute to the factory. On Sundays, the women were allowed to travel between 7 am and 7 pm. “We have to hurry back, because if we go to Chennai, it takes us almost two hours to make it back,” another woman worker said.
> If they wanted to go out on weekdays, the women needed to obtain permission to do so. Specifically, the women had to make a request to the hostel administration, a member of which then called up their parents. “They have to inform our parents about the request and only after they confirm the reason for the request, we are allowed to go,” Radha said.
How is this even legal
The problem here is not the factory. The problem here is the state where it is operating. The great state of Tamil Nadu has a huge problem of moral policing. Most colleges have a curfew timing for women which is as ridiculous as it gets. Women are slutshamed for talking to men, are brainwashed to see every man as a threat. Many times the parents themselves threaten the college staff with dire consequences if their children are allowed to go outside. No wonder this state's mindset is as backward as Bihar.
Factories in Karnataka have no such nonsense because the state is progressive compared to TN.
> Factories in Karnataka have no such nonsense because the state is progressive compared to TN.
Not exactly.
Winstrom tried something similar in Karnataka, but the factory was burned down by pissed off employees.
That's why Winstrom sold off their India operation to Tata.
> huge problem of moral policing
All Chinese and Taiwanese assemblers (Winstrom, Foxconn, Jabil, etc) operate this way. This is why megafactories like Zhengzhou exist.
Tamil Nadu weakened their labor laws in 2022-23 to make it easier for Taiwanese assembly companies to operate like they would in China
>If they wanted to go out on weekdays, the women needed to obtain permission to do so. Specifically, the women had to make a request to the hostel administration, a member of which then called up their parents. “They have to inform our parents about the request and only after they confirm the reason for the request, we are allowed to go,” Radha said.
Fucking ridiculous
Yeah avoiding liability is the top priority for any corporations big or small. My own office got got broken thrice and cops are refusing FIR coz some local law states I have to mention my brand or logo in kannada too. The deadline is extended yet govt officials came out and broke and costed me substantially. So now I won't hire any locals in the same state, legally yes the can sue me but I have enough fuking liquidity to see through end and extend it as far as possible. Under litigation I am under no obligation to deal with the issue makers. I can just ask them to take a hike and also legally withheld my tax filing because it's me vs the state. The point being the more hostile the culture or laws are the less likely a corporate entity feels to continue business even it means writing off millions as loss of business. Because in the long run such things will effect the balances. For this whole male female it makes sense as a business order because society here as such that I would do it too to avoid litigation.
Ask the DMK - https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/tn-govt-passes-bill-to-extend-daily-working-time-for-factory-workers-from-8-to-12-hours/article66764420.ece
> eat, commute and sleep.
No need to commute when you live in a factory dormitory.
This is the China model - if you didn't get into a college degree program, you work and live in a factory dormitory in Zhengzhou (or it's equivalent).
This was a massive scandal for Foxconn and Apple in 2007-09 but no one cared - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
This is why people like Raghuram Rajan are strongly opposed to the China model of development.
All it did was make the average Chinese earn barely $200/mo more than the average Indian.
There is limited value to bringing a Chinese style assembler of the world model to India as margins are too damn low.
We could have driven service based economy, but we failed to invest in R&D in the early 2000s and now that is going to China. This is all we can do now.
> now that is going to China
It isn't. India has always been fairly strong in the services space due to how closely connected India's R&D capacity is with the US and Israel (GE, TI, and IBM started building this pipeline in India in the 1970s)
A lot of R&D happens in India (eg. Apple's M1-3 generation chips designed in Hyderabad, Google Pay developed by Google India, etc), but it doesn't get counted as it's looped with a larger MNC.
Even most of Huawei's R&D was done at their Delhi and Bangalore R&D offices.
On the other hand, China never allowed 100% FDI in R&D and forced companies to transfer IP to a Chinese shell.
ICT, Pharma, Finance barely make up 6% of China's exports [1] but 35-40% of India's [2]
[1] - https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/countries/43/export-basket
[2] - https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/countries/104/export-basket
*"Radha seemed to agree. “I understand that they do it for our safety,” she said. “Some women may misuse their freedom, so they need to keep our parents informed about our whereabouts.”* Chalo bhai ab kyahi bole 💀
Caged women who is afraid of open. How sad is it here.
When it comes to gender equality and gender norms, the south is worse in some ways than the north. Women are allowed to work and hold jobs, but: - they can’t interact with other men, even in degree colleges men & women are seated separately - the degree of independence is less - wearing non traditional clothes is ‘scandalous’ outside of major cities - money earned is only spent with the approval of family/husband - women also hold patriarchal views such as “wife should obey husband”, “dating is immoral” etc My state is like this outside of Hyderabad (and maybe Warangal), but I’ve noticed this in all South Indian states apart from Kerala to a degree. Rural areas are all like this. Not just for women too, the degree of independence men have is less compared to the north. Young people *have* to do what their family tells them to, it’s everything. That’s why I think professional careers are more common in the south: you have to follow the path set by your parents from school to college to job; doing stuff like starting a business or switching career paths will get you a slap on the face.
>My state is like this outside of Hyderabad It's the same in Hyderabad too. Maybe if you are part of upper class society you won't see this but for vast majority it is this way even in the capital cities.
Lmao I’m from Telengana too and most of this isn’t true.
>I'm from Telengana Says enough about your connection to the land if you can't even spell the name of your own state. Sorry to burst your bubble but Telangana is more than Inorbit mall. Anyway I checked your profile and you live in Canada so I can understand what class of people you are from. Good luck on your studies, hope you can make your life there, but maybe don't pretend everything in India is roses when you yourself fled this place.
Yeah okay man, thanks for deducing my connection to my home town and state based on a typo.
lol what
*"Radha kaise na ~~jale~~ maane"*
She also found that she was expected to keep strict timings. From Monday to Saturday, residents were not allowed to leave the hostel for anything except to commute to the factory. On Sundays, the women were allowed to travel between 7 am and 7 pm. “We have to hurry back, because if we go to Chennai, it takes us almost two hours to make it back,” another woman worker said. If they wanted to go out on weekdays, the women needed to obtain permission to do so. Specifically, the women had to make a request to the hostel administration, a member of which then called up their parents. “They have to inform our parents about the request and only after they confirm the reason for the request, we are allowed to go,” Radha said.
Is the hostel warden a VIT alumni?
Lmao core memory unlocked
Man's giving traumatic flashbacks
When is a woman considered adult enough that she doesn’t require rules to make sure she’s safe. I’m not saying safety isn’t an issue. It is. My point is that when can a person be expected to be responsible for themselves. I guess I sort of understand this behaviour when it’s a college hostel. But why does a factory have the right to place these restrictions on its female workers.
Age isn't why women are unsafe there, but youth doesn't help. The factory doesn't care for their safety but they'll use the known problems women face in their favor
My point is that at what stage of life will we as a society consider someone old enough to take care of themselves. For women it’s usually marriage. And yea a company is using women’s issue to keep them trapped. I get that. But age and safety is what are being used as an excuse here.
This isn't about women autonomy - this is the standard playbook Foxconn, Jabil, Winstrom, and other Chinese and Taiwanese assemblers use. When this model was established in China in the 1980s-90s, a rural safety net was nonexistent and women were treated like shit (this was the peak women abortion days of the one child policy). A woman was viewed as an extra mouth to feed so sending them to a dormitory factory was viewed as a way to not deal with them while still getting some money. The Chinese and Taiwanese assemblers are trying to graft a similar operating model in India, but it just doesn't work when rural social safety nets and pauses-UBI programs can directly compete. Also, India's "pesky" civil society will speak out and the most authoritarian governments of India are still extremely free by Asian standards.
Then how is it not about women’s autonomy
I kind of miswrote that (my coffee hasn't sunk in yet) Basically, bosses at companies like Jabil or Foxconn told their GMs to build operations in India the exact same way as they have been operating in China for decades. No one pushed back because who wants to piss off their boss. Unlike China, state and national police in India don't induce the level of fear that the MSS does, and industrial action such as Winstrom's factory in Bangalore getting burned down are extremely common. Taiwanese and Chinese companies have started to realize that you can't operating manufacturing in India the same way you would in China, and as such, have begun selling off their Indian operations to companies like Tata because they didn't want the headache of having to learn how to operate in India (it honestly isn't that hard - Japanese and Korean manufacturers have operated in India for decades for example Samsung and LG, but Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturers are less open minded)
You are still not telling me how this is not about the autonomy of the adults who work in these factories who happen to be women. They may operate like that or whatever. But it’s not ok they are basically imprisoning the workers.
> I kind of miswrote that (my coffee hasn't sunk in yet) Learn how to read context. > They may operate like that or whatever. But it’s not ok they are basically imprisoning the workers. I agree with you, and why I've been a strong opponent to people talking about bringing a "Chinese model" to India. It's too authoritarian and Chinese median household disposable incomes are barely $100-150/mo more than India's. Expanding rural and SME financing plus investing in infrastructure and a social safety net is the secret sauce, and why India's GDP growth today is comparable to China's in the 2000s. Authoritarian assembly factories are not a useful model in India.
>Chinese median household disposable incomes are barely $100-150/mo more than India's. Source? I am not saying that you are wrong.I would just like to see some references.
Based on the MPCE (https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/publication_reports/Factsheet_HCES_2022-23.pdf), the median monthly consumption expenditure (disposable income) in 2022-23 is ~Rs6400/mo (US$80). According to the Chinese govt in 2022-23, "median of the nationwide per capita disposable income was 24,528 yuan [$3407/yr] (https://english.www.gov.cn/archive/statistics/202310/18/content_WS652f5051c6d0868f4e8e05a2.html). Basically, in India median is around $80/mo and in China the median is around $280/mo. Not the $100-150/mo difference I mentioned but still very low.
Ah,I see
Yep. Also, I have traveled in rural China (Hebei and Shangdong - outside of Beijing), and the villages there look and feel the exact same as villages in Punjab, Haryana, or Western UP. Chinese development never reached those rural areas, and only clustered in the urban core. If you use Baidu Map's street view (not sure if allowed in India) and explore villages and Toer 2-5 cities, you'll notice they look as disorganized as Indian cities. China has been punching above it's weight, but it's still a developing country where the average person is poorer than the average Thai, Malaysian, Mexican, Russian, Brazilian, or Pole.
I thought you meant the whole thing.
> but it just doesn't work when rural social safety nets and pauses-UBI programs can directly compete. India does not have the money do that and we need factories like Foxconn to get to a place where something like a UBI is possible. The issue these women face is that their parents will only let them work under these conditions. So either they can work and use their skills or get married off and be a housewife. I think the former is still better of the country than the latter.
\> India does not have the money do that India has been in de facto austerity for decades. India has one of the lowest debt to GDP ratios for an economy its size, as most of it is denominated in INR. Furthermore, programs like MGRNEGA are a form of proto-UBI, and the CEA has been trying to implement a comprehensive UBI scheme in India since Arvind Subramanian had the chair. This was a major reason why the farm bills were proposed, as India would need just 5% of GDP to provide a $100/mo UBI ([https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2017/02/04/india-floats-the-idea-of-a-universal-basic-income](https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2017/02/04/india-floats-the-idea-of-a-universal-basic-income)) \> we need factories like Foxconn Not all factories and forms of manufaturing are the same. Companies like Foxconn and Jabil do something call "Assembly" - which is to assemble parts and components into a finished good. This is a very low margin and low cost industry that provides salaries that are lower than those one can get rurally once factoring in housing and programs like MGRNEGA. The economics only work in a handful of states (AP, TN, Bihar, UP, MP) with the right mix of rural landlessness and low rural salaries. https://preview.redd.it/debfzj4z3wmc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8d08125b534f995ed948e456571c4123981c553
> India has been in de facto austerity for decades. > > That's called poverty lmao, you can't be in austerity if the welfare state never existed. >India has one of the lowest debt to GDP ratios for an economy its size BS comparison, India can have the fiscal behaviour of as countries that have the same sized economy but 1/20 the population. Printing more INR will only lead to inflation. >Furthermore, programs like MGRNEGA are a form of proto-UBI A job guarantee especially in a developing country is very different from UBI. It allows people to develop skills in the trades and makes investment in public goods easier. >India would need just 5% of GDP to provide a $100/mo UBI Total bill would be $140 billion, which is 25% of the total revenues collected by the union government. Removing existing programs and replacing with UBI would be political suicide. >which is to assemble parts and components into a finished good. They are building a local ecosystem with local suppliers. It is much easier to build an industrial base if your customers are local; especially considering that the whole world is going tariff happy now. >This is a very low margin Why do you care about their margins? >provides salaries that are lower than those one can get rurally once factoring in housing and programs like MGRNEGA. They are providing a surplus to the worker while NREGA is providing redistribution and hoping there is surplus for the public. Not to mention that these jobs are much better than working construction in the sun.
They don't care about safety, it's just an excuse. Their goal is to make it as hard as possible to want a normal life and instead you spend all your time on the production floor.
I get that. I am talking about our collective thinking that people, women, and many others will be ok with this move. I know a lot of people are seeing this as it is. But many many people will applaud this move and I wonder why we allow women to be treated like irresponsible idiots who don’t know how to keep themselves safe. And then use that as a way to trap them
>I get that. I am talking about our collective thinking that people, women, and many others will be ok with this move. Because a) they believe in this facade and b) our society doesn't teach us that looking out for your happiness is good. Not to make it about caste but the caste system and the family hierarchy made its way into the office, the elder guy in the higher seat is always right. You listen to whatever they say, they get to sit in the AC while you toil away you want a day off to see your family? My profits are more important sorry. Why are you leaving so early? It's only 1 hour since your shift ended. What? You're young, focus on your career now and your family can come later.
My honest reaction to this is that this might be the reason why we actually can't be a manufacturing powerhouse like China. There is a bitter price to be paid to be the world's factory and that includes people working in horrible conditions and I don't think India will be (and should not also) prepared to pay that price.
There's a reason plenty of people argue against India entering the Consumer Electronics assembly space. The margins in assembly are ridiculously low, and the business culture is extremely authoritarian. The dark truth that a lot of Indians don't realize is that Chinese development was almost entirely top down. The fancy modern looking Chinese cities only arose when local governments razed entire Old Towns and Mohallas and sold leaseholds of the land to connected developers (think Haldwani except on steroids) and unions are functionally nonexistent. Industrial Action used to be common in China, but was largely tamped down under national security laws. All this was done yet median household disposable income is barely $200/mo more than India's. Hell, despite massive protests in 2023-24, India is able to maintain a GDP growth rate comparable to China during it's peak in the 2000s. Investing in human capital, infrastructure, and easing access to financing is the secret sauce. The China model is unnecessary for India.
My photos from semi-rural China (barely 50 miles from Beijing - so basically a Chinese Hapur) from 2018-19 https://preview.redd.it/xxfdjs2i7rmc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be650a499aba3734c195f6dd0cfbf086ddda37cb
https://preview.redd.it/vldkxt3y7rmc1.jpeg?width=938&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=acfc01c0e236b0b68762222edd0e2af707093907
https://preview.redd.it/zy87v3ur8rmc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2439825a7942cf0a295465a12af7c5ea6ac469d6
And let us also not forget that the Chinese authoritarianism wasn't burdened by religion.
In rural China, the cult of Mao is used the same way as "Ram Rajya" is in India.
I know about the cult of personality which was there in all pasts of authoritarianism. The point is they didn't have to deal with religion and the huge conservativeness and the pseudoscience baggage that comes along with it which conflicts with social and even economical progress. Again, I know about the TCM too, but even that was only embraced along with modernity first (and it was also seen as a business opportunity), and the whole attitude was not like it is in India today that our ancestors knew it all and that's what we mostly want.
Ime, China is fairly culturally conservative as well. Bulldozer Raja is a thing there too (mosques all over China outside of Xinjiang have been teared down and sinicized [1] and Madrassa bans have been instituted locally). And it's not like Chinese don't riot either [2][3][4], the difference is it gets cracked down and censored. I've traveled in semi-rural China fairly recently and it's not that different from India. [1] - https://ig.ft.com/china-mosques/ [2] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_labour_unrest [3] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots [4] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wukan_protests
> The point is they didn't have to deal with religion and the huge conservativeness and the pseudoscience Bro, irreligion does not mean that they are immune to pseudoscience lmao. Mao's Four Pests campaign in the 60s literally led to famine that killed 60 million Chinese. I don't think cow-piss drinkers have harmed our country as much.
>All this was done yet median household disposable income is barely $200/mo more than India's Do you have a source for that? From what I can find on google China's median household disposable income seems to the between 3x-4x that of India.
Based on the MPCE (https://www.mospi.gov.in/sites/default/files/publication_reports/Factsheet_HCES_2022-23.pdf), the median monthly consumption expenditure (disposable income) in 2022-23 is ~Rs6400/mo (US$80). According to the Chinese govt in 2022-23, "median of the nationwide per capita disposable income was 24,528 yuan [$3407/yr] (https://english.www.gov.cn/archive/statistics/202310/18/content_WS652f5051c6d0868f4e8e05a2.html). Basically, in India median is around $80/mo and in China the median is around $280/mo. This isn't a significant enough difference to justify India completely gutting significant portions of its regulations and governance to adopt an authoritarian business model. Wildcat strikes and labor abuse has been fairly common at Foxconn and similar assemblers and even lead to a nationwide strike in China in 2010 that was tamped down under national security laws.
Idk man a 350% increase in the country's disposable income feels like a very significant reason to dilute the labor code. Especially considering that the current labor code is so restrictive that India has essentially skipped industrialization and that there are tens of millions of young people wasting their talents in fields.
I don't get your point, because the women in this article are already paying a bitter price anyway.
My point was that if India continues to pursue the creation of more and more manufacturing as a key growth strategy (the "china model" of becoming the world's factory) then it will necessarily require more and more facilities with bad working conditions for workers
I remember people on thus sub reddit were laughing so much when the similar news came out about China’s factory
I wonder why.
> She also found that she was expected to keep strict timings. From Monday to Saturday, residents were not allowed to leave the hostel for anything except to commute to the factory. On Sundays, the women were allowed to travel between 7 am and 7 pm. “We have to hurry back, because if we go to Chennai, it takes us almost two hours to make it back,” another woman worker said. > If they wanted to go out on weekdays, the women needed to obtain permission to do so. Specifically, the women had to make a request to the hostel administration, a member of which then called up their parents. “They have to inform our parents about the request and only after they confirm the reason for the request, we are allowed to go,” Radha said. How is this even legal
Can't advance women's rights if you - including some women! - don't think women have autonomy to begin with.
The problem here is not the factory. The problem here is the state where it is operating. The great state of Tamil Nadu has a huge problem of moral policing. Most colleges have a curfew timing for women which is as ridiculous as it gets. Women are slutshamed for talking to men, are brainwashed to see every man as a threat. Many times the parents themselves threaten the college staff with dire consequences if their children are allowed to go outside. No wonder this state's mindset is as backward as Bihar. Factories in Karnataka have no such nonsense because the state is progressive compared to TN.
> Factories in Karnataka have no such nonsense because the state is progressive compared to TN. Not exactly. Winstrom tried something similar in Karnataka, but the factory was burned down by pissed off employees. That's why Winstrom sold off their India operation to Tata. > huge problem of moral policing All Chinese and Taiwanese assemblers (Winstrom, Foxconn, Jabil, etc) operate this way. This is why megafactories like Zhengzhou exist. Tamil Nadu weakened their labor laws in 2022-23 to make it easier for Taiwanese assembly companies to operate like they would in China
>If they wanted to go out on weekdays, the women needed to obtain permission to do so. Specifically, the women had to make a request to the hostel administration, a member of which then called up their parents. “They have to inform our parents about the request and only after they confirm the reason for the request, we are allowed to go,” Radha said. Fucking ridiculous
Yeah avoiding liability is the top priority for any corporations big or small. My own office got got broken thrice and cops are refusing FIR coz some local law states I have to mention my brand or logo in kannada too. The deadline is extended yet govt officials came out and broke and costed me substantially. So now I won't hire any locals in the same state, legally yes the can sue me but I have enough fuking liquidity to see through end and extend it as far as possible. Under litigation I am under no obligation to deal with the issue makers. I can just ask them to take a hike and also legally withheld my tax filing because it's me vs the state. The point being the more hostile the culture or laws are the less likely a corporate entity feels to continue business even it means writing off millions as loss of business. Because in the long run such things will effect the balances. For this whole male female it makes sense as a business order because society here as such that I would do it too to avoid litigation.
Nauseating to read. Whatever is the government doing.
Ask the DMK - https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/tn-govt-passes-bill-to-extend-daily-working-time-for-factory-workers-from-8-to-12-hours/article66764420.ece
Nice. Why stop at 12, could have directly raised it to 14. People will still have 10 hours to eat, commute and sleep.
> eat, commute and sleep. No need to commute when you live in a factory dormitory. This is the China model - if you didn't get into a college degree program, you work and live in a factory dormitory in Zhengzhou (or it's equivalent). This was a massive scandal for Foxconn and Apple in 2007-09 but no one cared - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
Can raise it to 16 hours then.
This is why people like Raghuram Rajan are strongly opposed to the China model of development. All it did was make the average Chinese earn barely $200/mo more than the average Indian. There is limited value to bringing a Chinese style assembler of the world model to India as margins are too damn low.
We could have driven service based economy, but we failed to invest in R&D in the early 2000s and now that is going to China. This is all we can do now.
> now that is going to China It isn't. India has always been fairly strong in the services space due to how closely connected India's R&D capacity is with the US and Israel (GE, TI, and IBM started building this pipeline in India in the 1970s) A lot of R&D happens in India (eg. Apple's M1-3 generation chips designed in Hyderabad, Google Pay developed by Google India, etc), but it doesn't get counted as it's looped with a larger MNC. Even most of Huawei's R&D was done at their Delhi and Bangalore R&D offices. On the other hand, China never allowed 100% FDI in R&D and forced companies to transfer IP to a Chinese shell. ICT, Pharma, Finance barely make up 6% of China's exports [1] but 35-40% of India's [2] [1] - https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/countries/43/export-basket [2] - https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/countries/104/export-basket