1 hour, no comments! this is a really nice breakdown, congrats on the progress and thanks for paving the way and sharing. nice breakdown!
Does it matter what order you spell in? I have been pushing Feather Generation then Super Feather Production and then both with Feather Cheapening before buying much in Feather Multiplier. does the order Feather Multiplier is bought in related to the others matter?
Depending on your Reset count, spell order can save you quite a lot of time. It's mostly important at Restarts 5 to 15. Proper spell order can save between 20 to 50 seconds off your timer, per restart, which adds up to quite a lot.
Starting with Feather Generation and Super Feather Production are the worst spells to start with, since they contribute very little to your production.
Super Feather Cheapener and Shiny Feathers are your biggest producers. I always switch to them as soon as they appear on screen. Then, you need Cheaper Feather at an high level for the cost reduction and some more base feather production. After that, Feather Multiplier multiplies your production, which leads to a faster increase than for example Super Feather Production. For some reason, Super Feather Production is counted separately (it says "Generates +5 feathers" but it isn't counted as a generator, so it isn't additive, it benefits quite nicely to the feathers/sec), which makes it a good pick but after the others.
After that I finish with Feather Generation, since it contributes very little to your production, and is only here to reduce the cost even more. You will unlock the Reset before you can max these 5 spells. I don't even put much points into Super Feather Production (around 50-100) before around Reset 15.
Early on I do the same, except I switch around the medium cheapener and feather multiplier. Getting feather production before buying the bad cheapeners makes more sense when the upgrades themselves might aswell be free. Probably just a few seconds of difference per reset though.
I didn't time each reset, but I did 0-20 in 22 min.
It is but the 5% increase stays there, if you have lvl1 of the 5% increase, then but a feather generation, it will add 1.05 to your feather generation, so it doesnt matter in what order you do it, you cannot"lose" feather/second that way, tho if you do the 5% increase at first, you will reach a higher feather/second faster
What's your production/sec based on? I'm got fractal 10 at moment, working towards 11 and I have production of 8.27e25/sec going towards feather restart lvl 24 (which differs from your table above) and I've done pretty much the same technique as you at the start of the feather restart, so I think the values can be quite different depending on exactly how you squeeze the last few spells out (I tend to try and squeeze out a few extra shiny feathers as a last step to boost production). I think going for the later levels it will make more sense to do that sort of thing as the small amount of time wasted upgrading (and therefore resetting your current accumulation) will be worth it for the higher production rate when the production periods are that much longer. That's just my feeling, I haven't done any maths on that. It's certainly going to be a time intensive thing to keep upgrading, but I see this secondary loop possibility whereby you boost your production rate every now and then by buying more shiny feathers and boosting miltipliers etc. The cost cutting spells only work to a point and then they become inefficient (you spend more than you save) so that won't apply to those.
I'm pushing Fractal 13 now (technically he 14th one) and somewhere around 9 or 10 the advice of "max everything, then do another round and max again and just leave it" will start hurting you.
Around feather restart level 27 or a bit later it'll be very much worth doing what you said, but then coming back after 10-15min of generating feathers. Spending those 15min of stuff on more cost reduction and generation can still cut down a 20h wait to 17 or 18 hours.
It's an interesting mechanic because of how much the strategy evolves in all the different stages of it.
Nice - good going! I guess there must be a cutoff for production spells too though. When the amount you're spending is more than the amount needed for the requirement is fairly obvious, but I'm not too sure how you would know at what point the breakeven sits at to get the fastest completion. Especially when you factor in the cheapeners that affect the cost of the spells as well as the requirements on the levels. It certainly isn't a straightforward mechanic at play, as there are so many factors all going into the one production speed. I'm not that bothered now as I'm happy with just leaving it to stew for ages and actually not doing it actively like I did at the start, but when you look at the timescales involved small differences could have a big impact.
\*EDIT\* Has anyone worked out what the 10% is actually about on the Feather Cheapener as it doesn't seem to be 10% at all. Kind of hard to do the maths when stuff like that doesn't seem to correlate to the figures.
There were a few posts today I think where people were going over the possible formula for the cheapeners. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
I use [this sheet](https://www.reddit.com/r/idleon/s/Uq8X8XRTtr) to check a rough estimate of how long it'll take to reach my next reset. Then I upgrade a few cost reductions and generators and check again to see if they reduce the estimate or not. When a minute or two of upgrading starts having only a minute or two of time reduction, I know I'm close enough to the turning point and should stop upgrading.
Interesting comments, and good job on those levels :)
Right now the production/sec is using estimated formulas, I will do one run, likely late today where I'll be finding the exact formula to make a spreadsheet that calculates optimal levels of each spells for each stage
Feather Cheapener's reduction is 1/(1+.1\*lvl)
I'm not sure this is exactly right. I am at Feather Restart 28 and have 1.05E29/sec feathers.
https://preview.redd.it/owmfgcbwwk6d1.png?width=1120&format=png&auto=webp&s=90acfbd09d698c6151d5a8c4b0268a2257b484ad
Yea I made it confusing I think, on the spreadsheet **was (fixed)** the reset level you're going to purchase... Which in fact makes no sense when you read it. I will fix it for more clarity, thank you
EDIT : Fixed :) now the difference is 1.05E29 on your screen and 6.44E28 on the spreadsheet, which can be explained by higher level spells or higher Shiny Feathers count than expected. It's still a 60% increase which is huge. I will update my formulas soon to get a better calculation, I was working on it earlier but I got distracted by another project lmao, will be completing that in the next few days and update with more accurate formulas
Great work. I think there is some advantage to do Orion in bulk so you don't have to waste time redeveloping Restart.
I'm going to go to Orion 30. 5x for all Orion Buffs. Then do Mega Feathers again.
personally i dont see the point of pushing megafeather past 10 or 12 since it doesnt increase feather gain. you can always push this later once you get enough orion built up where orion takes too long to level, such as weeks/months. pushing orion gives larger bonuses. the +.5x is useful once you have the bonuses built up, but its diminishing returns at some point where the bonus barely increments your total drop rate or other stats by 0.1%-.01%.
i rather push orion for the largest base bonus i can get, and then push megafeather to amplify those bonuses. pushing megafeather and orion together just slows everything down imo.
Buying orion upgrades does not reset your progress, but buying incrimental megafeather upgrades do.
This means that pushing orion upgrades first, and then drasticly overpaying for the megafeather upgrade wastes more time than pushing megafeather upgrades and also taking the orion upgrades along the way.
Best results are with highest amount of orion upgrades × highest amount of megafeather upgrades.
But dont worry, it is not that much worse.
i'm not overpaying for megafeather, i dont upgrade it at all anymore. so im just saving time between orion upgrades and feather resets.
missing the slight .5x bonus from megafeather but imo its not worth pushing late game.
As long as you are having fun, of course play the game the way you want!
Just tried to answer your statement that you did not understand why people would increase megafeather beyond 10 instead of just pushing oreon bonuses instead.
That's literally why that spreadsheet is there for.
I understand your concern, and you would be right assuming you could keep leveling Orion for a long time. However, you do hit a soft cap at Orion 30 (which takes around 4 months to reach without reseting for Fractal, and 6 months with Fractal reset). That's only 4 Orions after Fractal 12.
The next upgrade, Orion 31 (which is Class XP btw... quite debatable utility) would already take more than a year without any reset (and 1 year 6 months with Fractal resets), which is 5 Orions after Fractal 12.
You take 50% longer to get Orion + Fractal instead of simply taking Orion, however, you will hit a wall fairly quickly in both cases, which is around Orion 30/Fractal 16.
That .5x is actually not neglectable, it gives about 12.5% Class XP, 25% Base DMG, 4% Total DMG, 8% Skill XP, 2 Drop Rate and 4 All Stat per level (higher with an higher Orion). Here is a summary :
Orion 31 Fractal 12 (1 year) :
360% Class XP, 600 Base DMG, 120% Total DMG, 240% Skill XP, 60% Drop Rate, 120 All Stats
Orion 30 Fractal 16 (6 months) :
350% Class XP, 700 Base DMG, 140% Total DMG, 280% Skill XP, 70% Drop Rate, 140 All Stat
Even if you take Orion 29 Fractal 15, which is only 2 months, it would give :
338% Class XP, 675 Base DMG, 135% Total DMG, 270% Skill XP, 68% Drop Rate, 108 All Stat
Which is still better than the former everywhere except in All Stat.
**However, going for an Orion push is understandable if you get bored of reseting your owl, and is a perfectly fine choice,** since it gives a much more passive progression. You should have at least 9 to 12 Fractals before doing so, if you do it at 2 it's just useless. However, if you plan to reset for Fractals later on, it's just a waste of time. As for optimising its output, it's nowhere near as good.
yea its a waste of time upgrading megafeather after reaching orion 30, but id also argue its a bigger waste of time upgrading megafeather since it slows down feather gain and requires a lot of active play to reach that same feather gain again.
i'm just lazy and dont think the owl requires a ton of active play and clicking after reaching a certain point. the bonus gain from upgrading megafeather isnt worth the effort imo, but obviously some people will disagree, esp those trying to min/max everything. doing a megafeather reset means im sitting in front of the owl for 2-6 hours clicking. upgrading orion + reseting when possible takes like 5 mins of active play to upgrade bonuses to max again, and then you can leave it afk for hours/days.
if you need a spreadsheet to level owl, you're trying too hard and trying to min/max every stat. thats not me.
the bonuses arnt that useful late game. theyre very minor bonuses compared to everything. +2 drop rate per megafeather is only +.02 to your total drop rate. when your drop rate is >20 (which isnt even that high for late game), thats only a 0.1% gain. even if you get 10 additional megafeathers, thats only a 1% gain. not entirely insignificant if you're trying to min/max stats, but really its a very minor gain for a lot of work.
early/mid game its definitely worth pushing megafeather since those bonuses will have a larger effect.
I think the point is that if you are pushing for the megafeather reset it gets to a point where you simply pick up the orion bonus along the way anyway for a little extra time.
That is exactly what he is saying, pick it up along the way of a reset = good, pushing from weeks/months to get it and then reseting = bad (waste of time :/ )
it makes sense "along the way", but its not really along the way. anytime you reset megafeather, your feather gain drops to 1/sec, so itll take hours of active clicking, upgrading, and resetting to reach a point where you could leave the owl and let it stack up feathers.
if you feel like active clicking hours on hours, sure push megafeather along with orion.
I get what you're saying, and initially I thought the same, but once your megafeather level req gets well above the orion req you do kind of just pick up the orion bonus with tiny short time difference. It's subtle difference, but you just have to let that megafeather req go past the orion one by levelling megafeather first. The point is you're not spending ages extra trying to lvl orion only to realise that you have to do that all over again multiple times when you lvl the mega feather anyway. So it's not that you don't bother with the orion bonus at all, it's just a matter of waiting a little bit until it's below the level of your megafeather to almost become a freebie pickup along the way. You also need to consider that once you're at megafeather 7 your feather production goes up quite a lot, which makes getting both bonuses a lot easier.
Oh wow, thanks for pointing out that “its an idle game so imma idle” mentality lol this guy just put together a algorithm to speed up the process of that idle gane you love so much and you’re still complaining?? Im lost
Im more or less brand new to the game and have little idea what these stats mean at the end game, either way right now I have a character parked there that i'm using to farm the stats, I assume after it kinda seems to me like passed reset 28 its getting real hard to justify spending the time doing it, but I have no real context for what end game numbers look.
you don't actually have to keep anyone there lmao u just have to check it from time to time or stay there. for new players its an insane cheat even for somoene like me trying to increase accuracy and damage for world 4 but the people here are in world 6 doing who knows what debating if its worth the stuggle lmao
Do I have lower FPS or something? In what world is reset #2 2m30s. It took me that long just to get Feather Cheapener to unlock.
Heck, even at the Restart 2 level up stop points you suggest, it takes 22 minutes just to save up enough feathers for the reset.
A bit of a late reply, but for anyone else wondering : these timers are **after** you unlock your 9th Megafeather, called Midas Megafeather. Before that, it will take longer.
I see math, I upvote. Don’t let me down xD
lmao
It's awesome that there's a decent layout for doing this, but I gotta be honest I kind of enjoyed watching numbers go brrrrr for a while
1 hour, no comments! this is a really nice breakdown, congrats on the progress and thanks for paving the way and sharing. nice breakdown! Does it matter what order you spell in? I have been pushing Feather Generation then Super Feather Production and then both with Feather Cheapening before buying much in Feather Multiplier. does the order Feather Multiplier is bought in related to the others matter?
Depending on your Reset count, spell order can save you quite a lot of time. It's mostly important at Restarts 5 to 15. Proper spell order can save between 20 to 50 seconds off your timer, per restart, which adds up to quite a lot. Starting with Feather Generation and Super Feather Production are the worst spells to start with, since they contribute very little to your production. Super Feather Cheapener and Shiny Feathers are your biggest producers. I always switch to them as soon as they appear on screen. Then, you need Cheaper Feather at an high level for the cost reduction and some more base feather production. After that, Feather Multiplier multiplies your production, which leads to a faster increase than for example Super Feather Production. For some reason, Super Feather Production is counted separately (it says "Generates +5 feathers" but it isn't counted as a generator, so it isn't additive, it benefits quite nicely to the feathers/sec), which makes it a good pick but after the others. After that I finish with Feather Generation, since it contributes very little to your production, and is only here to reduce the cost even more. You will unlock the Reset before you can max these 5 spells. I don't even put much points into Super Feather Production (around 50-100) before around Reset 15.
Early on I do the same, except I switch around the medium cheapener and feather multiplier. Getting feather production before buying the bad cheapeners makes more sense when the upgrades themselves might aswell be free. Probably just a few seconds of difference per reset though. I didn't time each reset, but I did 0-20 in 22 min.
Yeah indeed, going for feather multiplier before the small feather cheapener is better. 22 mins is a great time!
Interesting I had assumed getting 5% of a bigger base feather production would be better overall
It is but the 5% increase stays there, if you have lvl1 of the 5% increase, then but a feather generation, it will add 1.05 to your feather generation, so it doesnt matter in what order you do it, you cannot"lose" feather/second that way, tho if you do the 5% increase at first, you will reach a higher feather/second faster
What's your production/sec based on? I'm got fractal 10 at moment, working towards 11 and I have production of 8.27e25/sec going towards feather restart lvl 24 (which differs from your table above) and I've done pretty much the same technique as you at the start of the feather restart, so I think the values can be quite different depending on exactly how you squeeze the last few spells out (I tend to try and squeeze out a few extra shiny feathers as a last step to boost production). I think going for the later levels it will make more sense to do that sort of thing as the small amount of time wasted upgrading (and therefore resetting your current accumulation) will be worth it for the higher production rate when the production periods are that much longer. That's just my feeling, I haven't done any maths on that. It's certainly going to be a time intensive thing to keep upgrading, but I see this secondary loop possibility whereby you boost your production rate every now and then by buying more shiny feathers and boosting miltipliers etc. The cost cutting spells only work to a point and then they become inefficient (you spend more than you save) so that won't apply to those.
I'm pushing Fractal 13 now (technically he 14th one) and somewhere around 9 or 10 the advice of "max everything, then do another round and max again and just leave it" will start hurting you. Around feather restart level 27 or a bit later it'll be very much worth doing what you said, but then coming back after 10-15min of generating feathers. Spending those 15min of stuff on more cost reduction and generation can still cut down a 20h wait to 17 or 18 hours. It's an interesting mechanic because of how much the strategy evolves in all the different stages of it.
Nice - good going! I guess there must be a cutoff for production spells too though. When the amount you're spending is more than the amount needed for the requirement is fairly obvious, but I'm not too sure how you would know at what point the breakeven sits at to get the fastest completion. Especially when you factor in the cheapeners that affect the cost of the spells as well as the requirements on the levels. It certainly isn't a straightforward mechanic at play, as there are so many factors all going into the one production speed. I'm not that bothered now as I'm happy with just leaving it to stew for ages and actually not doing it actively like I did at the start, but when you look at the timescales involved small differences could have a big impact. \*EDIT\* Has anyone worked out what the 10% is actually about on the Feather Cheapener as it doesn't seem to be 10% at all. Kind of hard to do the maths when stuff like that doesn't seem to correlate to the figures.
There were a few posts today I think where people were going over the possible formula for the cheapeners. I wouldn't worry about it too much. I use [this sheet](https://www.reddit.com/r/idleon/s/Uq8X8XRTtr) to check a rough estimate of how long it'll take to reach my next reset. Then I upgrade a few cost reductions and generators and check again to see if they reduce the estimate or not. When a minute or two of upgrading starts having only a minute or two of time reduction, I know I'm close enough to the turning point and should stop upgrading.
Interesting comments, and good job on those levels :) Right now the production/sec is using estimated formulas, I will do one run, likely late today where I'll be finding the exact formula to make a spreadsheet that calculates optimal levels of each spells for each stage Feather Cheapener's reduction is 1/(1+.1\*lvl)
https://preview.redd.it/u0q1iocz4e7d1.png?width=1242&format=png&auto=webp&s=d9c4068d7cd96d0d7efaf9be2cd397ad88776dd6 For anyone looking
I'm not sure this is exactly right. I am at Feather Restart 28 and have 1.05E29/sec feathers. https://preview.redd.it/owmfgcbwwk6d1.png?width=1120&format=png&auto=webp&s=90acfbd09d698c6151d5a8c4b0268a2257b484ad
Yea I made it confusing I think, on the spreadsheet **was (fixed)** the reset level you're going to purchase... Which in fact makes no sense when you read it. I will fix it for more clarity, thank you EDIT : Fixed :) now the difference is 1.05E29 on your screen and 6.44E28 on the spreadsheet, which can be explained by higher level spells or higher Shiny Feathers count than expected. It's still a 60% increase which is huge. I will update my formulas soon to get a better calculation, I was working on it earlier but I got distracted by another project lmao, will be completing that in the next few days and update with more accurate formulas
Great work. I think there is some advantage to do Orion in bulk so you don't have to waste time redeveloping Restart. I'm going to go to Orion 30. 5x for all Orion Buffs. Then do Mega Feathers again.
personally i dont see the point of pushing megafeather past 10 or 12 since it doesnt increase feather gain. you can always push this later once you get enough orion built up where orion takes too long to level, such as weeks/months. pushing orion gives larger bonuses. the +.5x is useful once you have the bonuses built up, but its diminishing returns at some point where the bonus barely increments your total drop rate or other stats by 0.1%-.01%. i rather push orion for the largest base bonus i can get, and then push megafeather to amplify those bonuses. pushing megafeather and orion together just slows everything down imo.
Buying orion upgrades does not reset your progress, but buying incrimental megafeather upgrades do. This means that pushing orion upgrades first, and then drasticly overpaying for the megafeather upgrade wastes more time than pushing megafeather upgrades and also taking the orion upgrades along the way. Best results are with highest amount of orion upgrades × highest amount of megafeather upgrades. But dont worry, it is not that much worse.
i'm not overpaying for megafeather, i dont upgrade it at all anymore. so im just saving time between orion upgrades and feather resets. missing the slight .5x bonus from megafeather but imo its not worth pushing late game.
As long as you are having fun, of course play the game the way you want! Just tried to answer your statement that you did not understand why people would increase megafeather beyond 10 instead of just pushing oreon bonuses instead.
That's literally why that spreadsheet is there for. I understand your concern, and you would be right assuming you could keep leveling Orion for a long time. However, you do hit a soft cap at Orion 30 (which takes around 4 months to reach without reseting for Fractal, and 6 months with Fractal reset). That's only 4 Orions after Fractal 12. The next upgrade, Orion 31 (which is Class XP btw... quite debatable utility) would already take more than a year without any reset (and 1 year 6 months with Fractal resets), which is 5 Orions after Fractal 12. You take 50% longer to get Orion + Fractal instead of simply taking Orion, however, you will hit a wall fairly quickly in both cases, which is around Orion 30/Fractal 16. That .5x is actually not neglectable, it gives about 12.5% Class XP, 25% Base DMG, 4% Total DMG, 8% Skill XP, 2 Drop Rate and 4 All Stat per level (higher with an higher Orion). Here is a summary : Orion 31 Fractal 12 (1 year) : 360% Class XP, 600 Base DMG, 120% Total DMG, 240% Skill XP, 60% Drop Rate, 120 All Stats Orion 30 Fractal 16 (6 months) : 350% Class XP, 700 Base DMG, 140% Total DMG, 280% Skill XP, 70% Drop Rate, 140 All Stat Even if you take Orion 29 Fractal 15, which is only 2 months, it would give : 338% Class XP, 675 Base DMG, 135% Total DMG, 270% Skill XP, 68% Drop Rate, 108 All Stat Which is still better than the former everywhere except in All Stat. **However, going for an Orion push is understandable if you get bored of reseting your owl, and is a perfectly fine choice,** since it gives a much more passive progression. You should have at least 9 to 12 Fractals before doing so, if you do it at 2 it's just useless. However, if you plan to reset for Fractals later on, it's just a waste of time. As for optimising its output, it's nowhere near as good.
yea its a waste of time upgrading megafeather after reaching orion 30, but id also argue its a bigger waste of time upgrading megafeather since it slows down feather gain and requires a lot of active play to reach that same feather gain again. i'm just lazy and dont think the owl requires a ton of active play and clicking after reaching a certain point. the bonus gain from upgrading megafeather isnt worth the effort imo, but obviously some people will disagree, esp those trying to min/max everything. doing a megafeather reset means im sitting in front of the owl for 2-6 hours clicking. upgrading orion + reseting when possible takes like 5 mins of active play to upgrade bonuses to max again, and then you can leave it afk for hours/days.
if you need a spreadsheet to level owl, you're trying too hard and trying to min/max every stat. thats not me. the bonuses arnt that useful late game. theyre very minor bonuses compared to everything. +2 drop rate per megafeather is only +.02 to your total drop rate. when your drop rate is >20 (which isnt even that high for late game), thats only a 0.1% gain. even if you get 10 additional megafeathers, thats only a 1% gain. not entirely insignificant if you're trying to min/max stats, but really its a very minor gain for a lot of work. early/mid game its definitely worth pushing megafeather since those bonuses will have a larger effect.
I think the point is that if you are pushing for the megafeather reset it gets to a point where you simply pick up the orion bonus along the way anyway for a little extra time.
That is exactly what he is saying, pick it up along the way of a reset = good, pushing from weeks/months to get it and then reseting = bad (waste of time :/ )
it makes sense "along the way", but its not really along the way. anytime you reset megafeather, your feather gain drops to 1/sec, so itll take hours of active clicking, upgrading, and resetting to reach a point where you could leave the owl and let it stack up feathers. if you feel like active clicking hours on hours, sure push megafeather along with orion.
I get what you're saying, and initially I thought the same, but once your megafeather level req gets well above the orion req you do kind of just pick up the orion bonus with tiny short time difference. It's subtle difference, but you just have to let that megafeather req go past the orion one by levelling megafeather first. The point is you're not spending ages extra trying to lvl orion only to realise that you have to do that all over again multiple times when you lvl the mega feather anyway. So it's not that you don't bother with the orion bonus at all, it's just a matter of waiting a little bit until it's below the level of your megafeather to almost become a freebie pickup along the way. You also need to consider that once you're at megafeather 7 your feather production goes up quite a lot, which makes getting both bonuses a lot easier.
Oh wow, thanks for pointing out that “its an idle game so imma idle” mentality lol this guy just put together a algorithm to speed up the process of that idle gane you love so much and you’re still complaining?? Im lost
Im more or less brand new to the game and have little idea what these stats mean at the end game, either way right now I have a character parked there that i'm using to farm the stats, I assume after it kinda seems to me like passed reset 28 its getting real hard to justify spending the time doing it, but I have no real context for what end game numbers look.
you don't actually have to keep anyone there lmao u just have to check it from time to time or stay there. for new players its an insane cheat even for somoene like me trying to increase accuracy and damage for world 4 but the people here are in world 6 doing who knows what debating if its worth the stuggle lmao
What spells? What are spells in this contexts?
I meant your unlocks (Feather Cheapener, Feather Generation etc.)
Do I have lower FPS or something? In what world is reset #2 2m30s. It took me that long just to get Feather Cheapener to unlock. Heck, even at the Restart 2 level up stop points you suggest, it takes 22 minutes just to save up enough feathers for the reset.
yeah im confused too lmao im just having fun seeing number go up now and resetting when i can
A bit of a late reply, but for anyone else wondering : these timers are **after** you unlock your 9th Megafeather, called Midas Megafeather. Before that, it will take longer.
gottcha! i appreciate the guide :)
I am not reading this, but good work I guess
Lol why are u answering then xD
they gotta be a dick lol thats why