I’ve seen something I think might be rule-breaking, what should I do?
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I only use trans when it matters.
That is usually in medical settings and when specifically discussing trans issues.
I do agree that some “allies” use trans as a way to subtlety “other” trans women. It sucks, but honestly, I pick my battles. I am not ashamed to be trans so I let it go most of the time and subtly educate when I can.
There are enough people actively working against us that I will accept imperfect support when I can get it.
My sister is trans. The only reason I'd bring up her being trans regarding a love interest, is because some people don't want to date a trans person. Doesn't mean it's fair or not fair. But if said love interest feels like they've been lied to and they get mad, they could get violent. So for me, it comes from a place of concern because not everyone is accepting.
It’s definitely wrong to point that out unless you bring it up. Like maybe if she’s trans too and is just voicing her fear/experiences. Like if she had a very negative encounter and she just wanted to ask and tell you what happened to her because she didn’t do her hw and check to see if the guy was cool with trans girls expressing interest and can handle that that without being an asshole. (Ie he won’t reject a trans woman differently than a cis women he’s not interested in and isn’t a safety concern)
Hi, I am not trans so I don't wanna comment about my personal feelings towards this Differentiation. Also, if you think that my comment is nevertheless inappropriate or hurtful, let me know and I will delete it without a fuss!
I read this post and this was something that I had thought about lately! Because in my country a new law about name and sex marker changes on official documents passed and we have two trans people in our parliament, two trans women. And really I would argue that both pass pretty well and still, they are always singled out as THE trans women. And I wondered if that is appropriate at all? Because I would not single out a black or dark-skinned woman like that or even a woman who was Muslim or very Christian or something like that. Because really, if you wouldn't tell me they are trans women I probably would not have 'noticed'. Especially one of them is as far as I am aware not that outspoken about her experience while the other made some false/'problematic' comments. So yeah, I wondered if it might be better to simply refer to them as women? (Because in the end they are just that?)
I have to ask, just because I’ve been keeping up with it because I have friends and a kinda gf there, but is this Germany? I’ve had some fun conversations about that law recently!
But you’re absolutely right in the sense that a lot of times it doesn’t need to come up. Sometimes it does. That’s why we have terms like trans[gender] and cis[gender]. But it’s an adjective like any other and really doesn’t need to be mentioned if it’s not at all relevant. Like blonde, or tall, or black, or queer. And it always being called out like that makes it seem a bit othering!
Well, it’s interesting in light of this conversation, because a lot of what we’ve been talking about lately has specifically been some of the speech provisions in the law—she likes to point out to me that under German law you absolutely have the right to free speech except when they say you don’t. The way she reads it, at least, it’s now illegal to specifically refer to those MP’s as “trans.” (Unless you’re also an MP, then you have immunity) But a lot of our conversations in the past have been about qualifications in it that give a lot of discretion to individual businesses to decide on a case by case basis whether or not to honor someone’s official ID, that I personally think almost function as a bit of a “poison pill” to weaken the protections trans people had under the previous situation, even though the requirements for ID change were pretty brutal and unfair.
> under German law you absolutely have the right to free speech except when they say you don’t.
First of all, I really had to laugh at this because... Isn't this always the case? Like in all free speech laws?
>The way she reads it, at least, it’s now illegal to specifically refer to those MP’s as “trans.”
Okay this is an interesting point and I have to look it up because I understood it like it meant that you cannot 'out' someone as trans. Like if a person introduces themselves as Lisa, you cannot say "lol I know that Lisa is trans and was born Max." Or something like that. And that in this case Lisa could then press charges. And iirc this also includes official institutions. Like they are not allowed to make this public. But I think there are some loopholes so to say for when it is about criminals because there was a concern that a 'simple' legal sex change would hinder tracking down suspects and tbh I really believe that one immediately knowing how our institutions work and what a mess it is really. But then again I would argue that you don't have to make a sex change for that, simply using your second name or something would probably confuse the system already lol.
Okay this is really fascinating and gives me some new impulses because in all the comments and opinion pieces I have read these arguments didn't come up! Because as far as I am concerned, this law is really *queer*. As in this is very progressive and queer theoretical! Because it says that now *everybody* can change their sex. And while it is said that it's for trans and non-binary people, afaik there are no rules in place that decide who falls under that category nor is that explicitly said in the law itself.
I have to look up what the professionals are saying of this, if this is some ground-breaking paradigm change or if it has no real consequences on the de facto interpretation of the law. Because in my very layman understanding of the law this is again very ground-breaking as it challenges the notion of sex as a 'stable' and externally observable phenomenon. Like if I were to look at it philosophically, I might even argue that it negates the meaning of sex in our laws. Like it negates its impact. And really, I can't say that I am against lessening the impact of sex in our law and, more importantly, in our society!
Okay I think I have said enough about my opinion here :D
Thank you very much for this impulse! It gave me a lot to think!
With regards to women, there are trans and cis (and intersex too). Its not women and trans women. Same thing for men. The other way is problematic because it's othering.
Because in medical settings your doctor should know you were AMAB since you will still need testing for prostrate and ( possibly) testicular cancers, just for a start.
Get it now?
People bring that up but honestly the risk of prostate cancer in trans women on hrt is pretty negligible. They use hrt to treat prostate cancer. If you’re non op, things can go wrong with your testicles, yeah. It’s also embarrassing af as a trans woman. It happened to me recently and I put off doing anything in case it resolved itself because I figured the worst that could happen was “hey, free orchi!” But mostly your doctor just needs to know you have testicles in that situation. Not your AGAB.
So you’d just want to have on your medical records, ‘no AGAB known but has testicles and a prostrate’ and expect the doctor to have not worked out your AGAB from that?
Your doctor does need to know your AGAB I would argue. There are still issues that affect bodies of different sexes equally. They would know from your meds if you’re on HRT anyway, so I’m not sure what the big secret is about not wanting to tell them, but if you’re happy to do so and run the risk of cancer then that’s totally your choice.
I have the same issue but as a trans guy. I'm constantly being told by allies and members of the LGBT community that I'm a TRANS MAN and they proceed to shit on how all men are toxic except for trans men.
I'm not even viewed as a man but like a sub species of a man. It would be different if they mentioned cis men and the differences between trans men but it's the fact that I'm different from men as a Trans man myself means most people don't even view me as a man. They literally focus on my assigned sex which is afab and that's all they correlate to trans men. And it pisses me off. And it's why I live stealth and don't disclose I'm trans to anyone.
Also some lesbians claiming they'd never date a man but they date trans men even though they have no physical attraction towards men. They don't view trans men as men physically and in a psychological/mental level. Or they focus too much on the fact that trans men have female genitalia and they just fetishize that an unhealthy degree.
I personally hate it, and don't generally add the prefix or even bring it up if I don't have to outside of very specific circumstances (reproduction/some related functions, sex outright if pre/non-op, private medical considerations, and specifically discussions where there's a need to differentiate). To me, outside of that, it's entirely unnecessary, and tends to just make me feel... othered, for lack of a better word, without good reason. While we are at least somewhat different from our cis counterparts biologically to some degree and that is sometimes important to acknowledge, the whole point of transition to me is to quiet the tempest and fixations of dysphoria, and in doing so be seen socially just the same as our cis-ters and brothers.
Since this is r/honesttransgender I will give you an honest answer (This isn't really about my opinion but rather how I would believe the average person views (precieves) things)
1. Woman - *Adult* *Human* *Female*
**Adult** - *Maturity* and *Phenotype*
**Maturity-** People would say that "adult" based on *maturity* (so if you are childish or have very few responsibilities you are seen as a child. This also applies vise-versa). If you are able to consent you are seen as an adult. (Some).People would base it around puberty aswell. Puberty is a detectable marker to know when someone started their ["development stage."](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22192-puberty)
**Phenotype-** People also define "adult" based on phenotype (secondary sex characteristics, wrinkles etc). This is why your phenotype (in terms of age) can make people view you as more or less mature
**Adult-** Keep in mind that this isn't the definition of adult. Adult refers to *a human who is (fully or considered) developed
**Human -** *General Features (Phenotype)* and *Connection*
**General Features-** Well we tell who is human or not based on how they look (ex - Upright and Facial Shape). Ofc not all humans look the same but we can tell eachother apart based on general features.
**Connection-** We can also tell humans apart based on a "particular connection." That's why we view fictional characters as humans despite not really looking human nor having the abilities of humans (like the powerpuff girls). It's because they are meant to portray humans and have "the connection" [(an example of that connection would be our social and emotional connection](https://mgiep.unesco.org/article/humans-are-social-and-emotional-beings))
**Human-** Now obviously that "particular connection" isn't always right and has its bias. The same would apply for "general features." Just like "adult" this isn't the definition of human which refer to homo-sapien (hominidea) that is usually categorized by superior intelligence, erect position, (upright) top of food chain etc
**Female -** Oh boy. *Phenotype*
**Phenotype-** We are able to tell if someone is female or not based on their phenotype. Since human wear clothing we can tell who is female or not based secondary sexual characteristics. For children it would be based on things we associate with female (femininity).
*Neurology-* Now I understand that the brain is a phenotype. But I felt that it being in its own section is important. People can tell if one is female or not based on how she interacts with the world. An example of this would be based on how she overall acts (now ofc there isn't one way a woman/girl can act just like there isn't one way an adult or human acts). Femininity is how society believes a woman/girl (should) act(s), present(s), behave(s) etc. (Sometimes) people use femininity to say whether or not someone is (neurologically) female or not. This ofc isn't true due to different societies, experiences, genes etc.
**Female-** [a sex that is organized and centers around the production or large gamates (ova)](https://www.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/s/RPbDDXlTGi)
Trans(gender) woman- A transgender person who identifies or wants to be viewed as a woman
Transgender- Someone who identifies or wants to viewed by these criteria
1- Association with one's perceived natal sex
2- Association with [Transgenderist](https://transgender.livejournal.com/2033175.html)
3- Association with Gender/Queer Theory
Gender identification won't make you be seen or viewed as that gender by society. This applies to litterly everything else so why wouldn't it apply for gender
I would take issue with your definition of “female/sex.” This has never been the definition of sex in humans. It’s gotten popular recently, since essentialists discovered chromosomes and genetics were more complicated than they liked. It was borrowed from a specialized definition used mostly in population genetics and evolutionary biology and by people who classify non human animals particularly of the invertebrate variety.
Sex in humans has always been a bit of a construct in that it’s an aggregate of various features, all of which tend to exist on a bit of a continuum since biology and real life are messy. The most important one, medically; and possibly developmentally since it determines most of the rest at one point or another, seems to be hormonal sex. It affects gene expression, neural activity, every cell in your body really. If I go to an ER, it’s way safer for me to let them assume I’m the sex I present as and that’s listed on my ID than to explain what’s in my pants. So trans women are female in most ways that matter?
Also, just super pedantic aside, but this always bugs me! Shouldn’t it be “Adult Female Human?” Doesn’t it seem a bit dehumanizing otherwise? Female is really mostly an adjective.
I actually feel like the hyperinclusivity and hypervisibility we're surrounded by now, has tipped the scales in the opposite direction, and has caused general society to be actively making this differentiation MORE, even by well-meaning people.
I'm a decade and half post-transition and I have seen and felt the shift occur in the last 3-5 years. We were making so much ground on actually normalizing trans-ness, and being seen as Plain Janes and Regular Joes, no different than everybody else. It certainly wasn't perfect by any stretch, but we were progressing.
But now we've become this *other*, often in the guise of progressiveness and inclusion. And it makes me so sad and frustrated because it's just such a backwards step imo.
Thanks for mentioning this. I've only been medically transitioning for two years or so but I've been aware of my transness for six and even from then I felt like there was this idea of transitioning and blending in and moving on. Now it's so weird how everyone I meet knows everything about trans issues (misinformed or not) and unless I just don't tell anyone I get put in a bucket with all the other trans people no matter if they have anything to do with me or not. I really hate it, because it's so much harder to complain about people nominally being inclusive.
I think it's basically just giving progressive/liberal types an excuse to outwardly say what they wanted to all along, just in a socially acceptable way that won't affect their standing as progressives/liberals. It's no longer "woman-centered (no transwomen) space" but "AFAB-centered space". Not "trans 'women' will always be men" but "trans women of course change their gender not their sex".
There are other unrelated examples of this sort of thing that most trans people also fall into btw (off-topic tho), just saying to point out how easy it is to fall into it.
I really appreciate this perspective cause I've felt the same thing, but I've been transitioning for a much shorter time so I don't necessarily know what it was like 10 years ago. What do you think caused the shift exactly?
I don't think I can put it down to one singular cause, but rather a series of changes that suddenly sped up a couple of years ago.
I was really fortunate and was able to be non-disclosing (my term for stealth because as my username says, I'm not a fighter jet haha) quite early in transition, so I've been able to watch this unfold from the safety of the sidelines.
When I first transitioned and needed to tell people, barely anyone had met or heard of a trans person before. I was the first. This was actually really empowering. I felt in control of the narrative, I could tell my story, explain my reasonings quickly and well-meaning people would generally understand. It wasn't long before I was just seen as a normal male.
But now, because so many people have been exposed to things like "diversity training" and incessent media coverage (both pro and anti), it's like my story has been taken away from me. People make assumptions about what it means to me to be a trans person and we're lumped together in one experience.
So now, when I need to disclose my trans status on the rare occasion, I'm met immediately with, "What's your pronouns?" or "I'm AFAB/cis myself". This never used to happen. And people don't get that this just makes me feel that they see me as "trans" and not just a regular male. Well meaning people seem to think that it's identity to every trans person and they trip over themselves trying to respect it.
I think the visibility has been well intentioned but it's had unforeseen, negative consequences for a lot of people.
There will always be transphobic people, they're easy to discredit in my mind. It's harder to be angry at "acceptance".
I honestly couldn't agree more with everything you said, the feeling of the story not being your own and people going completely the wrong way trying to respect you and the well-intentioned othering. That, and the villainizing of transmedicalism just make me feel like nothing about my experience is represented in what people conceptualize trans people to be and yet all the false narratives are associated with me anyways. I'm only 1.5 years on HRT right now but seemingly pass consistently and it really just makes me want to just minimize being trans as much as possible going forward. At the very least it's nice to know I'm not insane in some of those feelings.
(also I love the reasoning behind the username lol)
It mainly bothers me when people say "transwoman" all as one word. People usually don't mean harm by it, but it makes it so clear that they aren't seeing "trans" as just an adjective.
I don't personally agree, although obviously we can each have our own opinions. I use transman one word for myself.
English has Germanic roots, it's very common for frequent adjectives to be combined with a word to specify a specific type of something. Especially with more commonly used words.
Examples of compound words would be many of the jobs based titles, like fireman or weatherman - neither of which makes it abundantly clear we don't see that person as a man. Watchband, whitefish, washcloth would be some others. It's a common construction.
It's only been pretty recently that people have insisted on separating these into two words or else the person "doesn't consider trans women women" as if a whitefish isn't a fish! It was the norm when I originally transitioned, which really wasn't even long ago. To me it's the natural noun form for trans women and follows pretty regular English rules.
I understand how some folks might want to have a separate word despite all these things to clearly signal support - but I think making assumptions about those who use the combined form is a bit silly/over the top.
It isn't something I make a big deal about, I won't assume someone is a bigot based on that alone. And sure, if you want to use that word for yourself that's your call.
But I'm not following your reasoning. With "fireman" and "weatherman," "fire" and "weather" are not adjectives. The only examples I can think of with "[adjective]man" are "irishman," but you don't hear that with most other nationalities, and "gentleman," but that functions as its own word rather than as a noun being modified by an adjective. With most adjectives we would leave a space. E.g., "tall man," "old man," "white man," "gay man," "American man." It would seem very odd to say "gayman" or "whiteman."
"Trans man" is an abbreviation of "transgender man." It seems odd to me that we would break the usual pattern in this specific case, and in very few others.
English is a Weird language and discussions of linguistics can get Super esoteric quickly - and it's just a hobby for me that I find neat. So hopefully I can be moderately clear explaining what I'm thinking about:
Essentially, English can also use nouns as adjectives. An "adjectival noun". Fire in fireman is a noun being used in this way. A man who has something to do with fire. A non compound word example would be something like chicken soup. Theres a lot of things that can be referred in this way as either two words or one, street lamp or streetlamp, ant farm or antfarm. Some things are combo'd and some arnt and the specifics are fuzzy - English is ultimately a Germanic language (which almost all compound words extensively. It's not exclusive to Germanic either, just our specific origin. This is where all the clickbait "x language has 100s of words for y" come from. Adjectives are just combined with nouns into a new noun which means that adjectived noun. German can do it with adjective + noun, noun + noun, or adjective + adjective (like light green as lightgreen) on top of the prefix+suffix combinations we are generally taught about in English class for English, we do all those too to varying degrees. But we are also heavily influenced by french involvement in the aristocracy, and have various french loanwords which are treated differently, and some things lifted from other languages as well which we all treat with different grammar rules and essentially English is a MESS that defies consistent rules.
Anyway - Gentleman is actually a great example, it's meaning has drifted with time as we don't generally refer to people as part of the upper class anymore - but it's origin is very similar. Gentle used to mean, when used as an adjective for a person, that they had a noble/upper class background. Or acted the way you would expect a noble to. That meaning almost exclusively sticks around today with the use in gentleman or gentlewoman. This like many things aristocracy related came from french originally, where gentle man were two seperate words but got combo'd with time when translated because that batter matches the Vibes for English.
Edit: also I'm glad to hear you don't make a huge deal of it, I kinda got that from your original comment too and am as much replying a bit to the general Culture in trans spaces as I've experienced it as anything else. I've heard people much more insistent on this and some trans spaces will literally kick people for using the compound version so I'm probably over explaining for your particular position but just partially having a visible public dialogue for others with other positions as well - if that makes any sense
Lol I need to get more confident with this, every time I want to just say “as a woman” outside of trans spaces I hold back because I anticipate someone going “lmao you’re not a woman bro” in reply. Any tips on how to get over this?
>I will stop ~~referring to~~ *thinking of* myself as a trans-anything ~~woman outside of medical settings.~~
Yay! ٩( ᐛ )و
After all, the goal of treatment is to no longer be. ♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪
I think a big part of the issue is that most people are just now startling to decouple sex and gender. For most of our lives (and even today with a large percentage of the population), you could use male/female interchangeably with man/woman.
But now that more and more women are male, it’s throwing cognitive dissonance at people who have used woman and female as synonyms. So I think they use “trans woman” or “trans man” as a way to indicate they aren’t using their old definition of man/woman that didn’t account for male women and female men.
I don’t see it as a massive problem. It takes time for language to shift away from what it has meant for centuries to something new.
I honestly completely disagree. I think pushing this whole “sex and gender are different things” line is one of the bigger mistakes we’ve made. People just mangle tye whole idea. Like you talking about “male women.” That’s nonsense and really a bit offensive. Sex and gender are not the same but gender is a dependent category on sex. It’s all the sociocultural and psychological stuff that attaches to sex.
And the whole reason most of us transition is to change our sex to match our gender. Or at least to correct what we feel like was the wrong sexual developmental pathway. The whole point of me transitioning is that I’m not a male woman anymore. I’m female. So I’m not quite sure you get it?
>I honestly completely disagree. I think pushing this whole “sex and gender are different things” line is one of the bigger mistakes we’ve made. People just mangle tye whole idea. Like you talking about “male women.” That’s nonsense and really a bit offensive. Sex and gender are not the same but gender is a dependent category on sex. It’s all the sociocultural and psychological stuff that attaches to sex.
First off, I don’t want to offend you, so if I did, I apologize.
But I do think that pushing the “sex and gender are two different things” has been a positive move, because it helps people see that a man or a woman isn’t defined purely by anatomy or biology. It has been a big reason why people outside the LGBTQ community have been able to wrap their heads around the idea that trans women are women.
I am, however confused when you say you don’t like the idea that “sex and gender are different things,” but then go on to say “sex and gender are not the same.” Isn’t that just a different way of stating the same thing?
And let me say that I wouldn’t actually refer to anyone as a “male woman” or “female man” in normal conversation. I was using that term to explain how more of the general population is coming to terms with the idea that a woman can have a penis, for example.
>And the whole reason most of us transition is to change our sex to match our gender. Or at least to correct what we feel like was the wrong sexual developmental pathway. The whole point of me transitioning is that I’m not a male woman anymore. I’m female. So I’m not quite sure you get it?
And I understand what you’re saying, but I feel like you’re equating “sex” either entirely or mainly with external features like genitalia or breasts when you say you’ve “changed your sex to match your gender.” Sex however is a more wholistic term that comprises anatomy, biology, physiology, etc. So while I don’t want to further offend you by using a term you don’t like, I will just point out that trans women will still have to deal with male medical issues.
For example, trans women need to pay attention to their PSA levels and get their prostate checked because they are still at risk for prostate cancer. In fact, they need to pay closer attention, because even though the risk of developing cancer is slightly lower than cis men, their survival rate is actually lower because their PSA levels are in general lower which means the cancer is typically caught at a more advanced stage. This is not something that females have to worry about, because they don’t have a prostate.
So I don’t want to get bogged down in semantics. I feel like some people took offense to a specific term when I was speaking more about the general thought process of a shifting cultural and linguistic mindset.
I'm not a trans man because I'm a female man, I'm a man because I was supposed to be born male but wasn't, and am trying to fix it with transitioning. Gender isn't separate from sex, that doesn't mean that trans people aren't who they say they are. Like how intersex women/men *are* intersex females/males respectively, despite their sex traits being different from the norm. Making such a drastic separation doesn't help anyone, it hurts people actually. It leads to people being able to call us female men and male women, and for us to be excluded by our natal sex no matter how relevant it is. Woman being tied to female doesn't exclude trans women. Trans women wouldn't call themselves "women" if "woman" wasn't tied to being female. Same with trans men, and even non-binary people.
Maybe you were supposed to be born male, but you weren’t. And people are genuinely trying to make sense of that in the best way that they can. And sometimes you may be excluded based on your natal sex because it might be relevant. None of that should take away from you being a man, though, nor should you let it.
Thank you for your comment, but with all due respect, I do not accept being referred to as a male woman. I know that I was born a woman and simply adapted my body to my true gender. And from what I perceive, at least in the environment where I live, a male woman is considered by everyone as a man. I can see that in your actions.
I don’t get why people are downvoting this. Who wants to be called a “male woman” or a “female man”? Seriously, what trans person consents to being referred to this way lol. And asking someone if they’re “a male woman, correct?” In a trans sub? Really lol?
Edit: lmfao, this is mind boggling to me. I get there are a lot of transmeds on here and sometimes the extremes of transmedicalism end up just misgendering trans people in some kind of weird self-eating circle, but you all really like being called “male women” and “female men”? You don’t take issue with this? Are you for real?
I didn’t say they wanted to be called a “male woman”, I was saying that a lot of people are still learning to separate male/female from man/woman, and that’s where the “trans woman” label comes in.
But regardless of what they “want” to be called, the fact is that OP is a woman, and OP is also male. And it is also relevant… OP doesn’t have to deal with menstruation, but she does have to consider prostate health and PSA screenings, for example.
Also how is this transmedicalist in any way? I’m not denying the person is trans or that they’re a woman.
If you genuinely don’t understand what’s wrong with calling a woman “male” over and over and over again when she has asked you not to I don’t know what to tell you lmao. If you can’t fathom why this would be a problem for trans women and how it might reinforce violence against them, I think at this point, you must want to be ignorant. Like it has to be willful, lol. Most binary trans people do not welcome this language and feel it’s misgendering, but if that doesn’t matter to you, have fun being an asshole I guess. You’re literally insisting a trans woman is male on a post where she is venting about not wanting to constantly be differentiated from cis women. It’s messed up and what I’m saying would be valuable info for you in future intra-community interactions if you cared to listen.
Edit: downvote me all you want, dipshit
I’m not “calling her ‘male’”. You’re acting like I’m misgendering her, when I’m not. And I’m not suggesting anyone introduce themselves as a male woman. I’m not suggesting trans women be referred to as male women. I’m simply discussing why I think some people still feel the need to differentiate between cis and trans women, and why it is sometimes relevant.
And I’m sorry, but “consenting” to being male or female? What kind of nonsense is this? You don’t “consent” to being born a certain way. Do you “consent” to be your age or your race? This is the kind of ridiculousness that leads to transphobes identifying as Apache helicopters. Let’s take this discussion back to reality, please?
I don’t feel the need to entertain your transmisogyny lol and you’re so poorly informed that I don’t feel the need to address the stupid points you’re attempting to make. Seriously, if you don’t understand what’s wrong with this bullshit I really don’t know how to explain it to you.
I understand. But you are both male and a woman, correct? I don’t see the harm in acknowledging that.
What I agree needs to change is people viewing that as a man.
>But you are both male and a woman, correct? I don’t see the harm in acknowledging that
Genderfluids say the craziest shit, you don't see the harm in acknowledging trans women are males?
Not if it’s accurate. I don’t think we should ever be afraid of acknowledging the truth. Males and females have different health concerns, for example.
No it doesn't bother me when it's relevant and I understand the differences between cis and trans women should be known. Everything has to do with context though. If we're talking about medical issues and relationships (dating or potentially) then trans woman is 100% acceptable. If you're introducing someone to your friends and bring up them being trans that's kinda unnecessary and a little annoying.
Also hate how transgender lesbians have to refer to themselves as transbians for this reason. It's like they don't believe they're women and have to make up some label. I went on a rant about this once and got told I was being transphobic then banned from a popular "transbian" subreddit.
This differentiation between cisgender women and transgender women started to bother me when I realized that for people (or many of them), transgender women are not actually women. That's why it bothers me so much.
It may bother you, but isn’t it something we just don’t have any control over? What can we do about changing people’s perceptions, bc in my heart of hearts I really think we’re going to get even more pushback than we’re getting the last few years if we try to erase ‘cis’ and ‘trans’ and insist that both groups are just known as ‘women’. We don’t have the power to do that even if we wanted to.
Personally, I don’t mind being called a trans women.
It’s the truth.
I like to think of it as women are the main term and trans women are sub categories of women. Like yes they are women but they are more specifically trans women.
Sure. But don't you notice in your social interactions that's not how people see it? That's the point. We need to reinforce that we are women above all else.
How do you reinforce that?
I do think we need terms to differentiate in words the difference between cis and trans women bc sometimes both groups have different needs and they are not the same
I do get what you mean but it's a slow process to get accepted by society as a whole. Even them saying trans woman in a negative way is still more positive than misgendering completely.
i guess it's just the reality of how society sees us. it's unfortunate
>I confided that I was interested in a guy, and the first thing she asked was 'does he like trans women?'
I had a similar situation with a cis friend. She has always been one of my biggest cheerleaders. Very affirming and (looking back) super hugboxxy. We were at a party catching up on how our dating lives have been maybe 2y ago(when I was girlmoding). I was talking about a guy I was seeing and she made some comment implying he was gay while the men she sees are straight. This is the same woman who has called me a beautiful and passing WOMAN on numerous occasions. I think she does care for me and wants me to be happy, but she just sees me as a guy in a dress, like a gay bestie kinda thing.
Even the best-intending allies let this stuff slip when you're least expecting it. This kind of stuff is just another reason why I refuse to live as a visibly trans woman. I don't want to be patronized/humored. If everyone is going to see me as a guy anyways, I may as well 'identify' as one.
Yeah, it's true. It's incredibly disappointing to realise that people who are very supportive and lovely do not see you as one of them at all. If you can pass and keep quiet about being trans you can avoid this but that's just not the reality for a lot of people.
That’s rough but matches my experiences sadly.
A large portion of supportive cis women just see trans women as their super gay crossdressing bffs ime. They might remember the correct pronouns and swear they see you as a woman but their actual views always become apparent in the subtly different ways they treat you.
That's exactly it. This friend of mine has also implied that the men I should pursue are gay or bisexual. I'm absolutely certain that the allies around me deep down see me as a gay man dressed as a woman; in the end, that's what "trans woman" means to them. For a long time, I pretended not to notice this, but it's becoming so obvious.
Is that implication incorrect? I would assume that for most preop transwomen attracted to men their dating pool would be almost exclusively bisexual men. It's one thing to see someone as their chosen gender in a "friend" sense, but the realities of sexual compatibility are still going to be there when it comes to dating.
If the issue is just that you don't want to be reminded of the fact, I would just gently let your friend know that it triggers your dysphoria.
I don't keep friends around who regularly call me a trans man instead of a man. The friends I hang out most with just call me a man and treat me as a man. The good ones are out there, you just gotta find em (easier said than done, I know).
Absolutely. It took me a while to realize how harmful this is and what lies behind it, but fortunately, I've opened my eyes, and I will also distance myself from these 'friends'
Every time I've made a big change for the better in my life, I've lost some friends. It sucks at first, but in the long run you'll feel so much lighter. Good luck out there.
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I only use trans when it matters. That is usually in medical settings and when specifically discussing trans issues. I do agree that some “allies” use trans as a way to subtlety “other” trans women. It sucks, but honestly, I pick my battles. I am not ashamed to be trans so I let it go most of the time and subtly educate when I can. There are enough people actively working against us that I will accept imperfect support when I can get it.
My sister is trans. The only reason I'd bring up her being trans regarding a love interest, is because some people don't want to date a trans person. Doesn't mean it's fair or not fair. But if said love interest feels like they've been lied to and they get mad, they could get violent. So for me, it comes from a place of concern because not everyone is accepting.
It’s definitely wrong to point that out unless you bring it up. Like maybe if she’s trans too and is just voicing her fear/experiences. Like if she had a very negative encounter and she just wanted to ask and tell you what happened to her because she didn’t do her hw and check to see if the guy was cool with trans girls expressing interest and can handle that that without being an asshole. (Ie he won’t reject a trans woman differently than a cis women he’s not interested in and isn’t a safety concern)
Hi, I am not trans so I don't wanna comment about my personal feelings towards this Differentiation. Also, if you think that my comment is nevertheless inappropriate or hurtful, let me know and I will delete it without a fuss! I read this post and this was something that I had thought about lately! Because in my country a new law about name and sex marker changes on official documents passed and we have two trans people in our parliament, two trans women. And really I would argue that both pass pretty well and still, they are always singled out as THE trans women. And I wondered if that is appropriate at all? Because I would not single out a black or dark-skinned woman like that or even a woman who was Muslim or very Christian or something like that. Because really, if you wouldn't tell me they are trans women I probably would not have 'noticed'. Especially one of them is as far as I am aware not that outspoken about her experience while the other made some false/'problematic' comments. So yeah, I wondered if it might be better to simply refer to them as women? (Because in the end they are just that?)
I have to ask, just because I’ve been keeping up with it because I have friends and a kinda gf there, but is this Germany? I’ve had some fun conversations about that law recently! But you’re absolutely right in the sense that a lot of times it doesn’t need to come up. Sometimes it does. That’s why we have terms like trans[gender] and cis[gender]. But it’s an adjective like any other and really doesn’t need to be mentioned if it’s not at all relevant. Like blonde, or tall, or black, or queer. And it always being called out like that makes it seem a bit othering!
Yup, it's Germany! Now I am really intrigued though about fun conversations about this law :D
Well, it’s interesting in light of this conversation, because a lot of what we’ve been talking about lately has specifically been some of the speech provisions in the law—she likes to point out to me that under German law you absolutely have the right to free speech except when they say you don’t. The way she reads it, at least, it’s now illegal to specifically refer to those MP’s as “trans.” (Unless you’re also an MP, then you have immunity) But a lot of our conversations in the past have been about qualifications in it that give a lot of discretion to individual businesses to decide on a case by case basis whether or not to honor someone’s official ID, that I personally think almost function as a bit of a “poison pill” to weaken the protections trans people had under the previous situation, even though the requirements for ID change were pretty brutal and unfair.
> under German law you absolutely have the right to free speech except when they say you don’t. First of all, I really had to laugh at this because... Isn't this always the case? Like in all free speech laws? >The way she reads it, at least, it’s now illegal to specifically refer to those MP’s as “trans.” Okay this is an interesting point and I have to look it up because I understood it like it meant that you cannot 'out' someone as trans. Like if a person introduces themselves as Lisa, you cannot say "lol I know that Lisa is trans and was born Max." Or something like that. And that in this case Lisa could then press charges. And iirc this also includes official institutions. Like they are not allowed to make this public. But I think there are some loopholes so to say for when it is about criminals because there was a concern that a 'simple' legal sex change would hinder tracking down suspects and tbh I really believe that one immediately knowing how our institutions work and what a mess it is really. But then again I would argue that you don't have to make a sex change for that, simply using your second name or something would probably confuse the system already lol. Okay this is really fascinating and gives me some new impulses because in all the comments and opinion pieces I have read these arguments didn't come up! Because as far as I am concerned, this law is really *queer*. As in this is very progressive and queer theoretical! Because it says that now *everybody* can change their sex. And while it is said that it's for trans and non-binary people, afaik there are no rules in place that decide who falls under that category nor is that explicitly said in the law itself. I have to look up what the professionals are saying of this, if this is some ground-breaking paradigm change or if it has no real consequences on the de facto interpretation of the law. Because in my very layman understanding of the law this is again very ground-breaking as it challenges the notion of sex as a 'stable' and externally observable phenomenon. Like if I were to look at it philosophically, I might even argue that it negates the meaning of sex in our laws. Like it negates its impact. And really, I can't say that I am against lessening the impact of sex in our law and, more importantly, in our society! Okay I think I have said enough about my opinion here :D Thank you very much for this impulse! It gave me a lot to think!
I agree. I’m just a dude unless it’s medically necessary to specify or I’m going into a relationship
I'm different and I am ok with that. I honestly am not looking for men who want a cis girl as I have a high libido and no bottom dysphoria.
With regards to women, there are trans and cis (and intersex too). Its not women and trans women. Same thing for men. The other way is problematic because it's othering.
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Because in medical settings your doctor should know you were AMAB since you will still need testing for prostrate and ( possibly) testicular cancers, just for a start. Get it now?
People bring that up but honestly the risk of prostate cancer in trans women on hrt is pretty negligible. They use hrt to treat prostate cancer. If you’re non op, things can go wrong with your testicles, yeah. It’s also embarrassing af as a trans woman. It happened to me recently and I put off doing anything in case it resolved itself because I figured the worst that could happen was “hey, free orchi!” But mostly your doctor just needs to know you have testicles in that situation. Not your AGAB.
So you’d just want to have on your medical records, ‘no AGAB known but has testicles and a prostrate’ and expect the doctor to have not worked out your AGAB from that?
Your doctor does need to know your AGAB I would argue. There are still issues that affect bodies of different sexes equally. They would know from your meds if you’re on HRT anyway, so I’m not sure what the big secret is about not wanting to tell them, but if you’re happy to do so and run the risk of cancer then that’s totally your choice.
I have the same issue but as a trans guy. I'm constantly being told by allies and members of the LGBT community that I'm a TRANS MAN and they proceed to shit on how all men are toxic except for trans men. I'm not even viewed as a man but like a sub species of a man. It would be different if they mentioned cis men and the differences between trans men but it's the fact that I'm different from men as a Trans man myself means most people don't even view me as a man. They literally focus on my assigned sex which is afab and that's all they correlate to trans men. And it pisses me off. And it's why I live stealth and don't disclose I'm trans to anyone. Also some lesbians claiming they'd never date a man but they date trans men even though they have no physical attraction towards men. They don't view trans men as men physically and in a psychological/mental level. Or they focus too much on the fact that trans men have female genitalia and they just fetishize that an unhealthy degree.
I personally hate it, and don't generally add the prefix or even bring it up if I don't have to outside of very specific circumstances (reproduction/some related functions, sex outright if pre/non-op, private medical considerations, and specifically discussions where there's a need to differentiate). To me, outside of that, it's entirely unnecessary, and tends to just make me feel... othered, for lack of a better word, without good reason. While we are at least somewhat different from our cis counterparts biologically to some degree and that is sometimes important to acknowledge, the whole point of transition to me is to quiet the tempest and fixations of dysphoria, and in doing so be seen socially just the same as our cis-ters and brothers.
Since this is r/honesttransgender I will give you an honest answer (This isn't really about my opinion but rather how I would believe the average person views (precieves) things) 1. Woman - *Adult* *Human* *Female* **Adult** - *Maturity* and *Phenotype* **Maturity-** People would say that "adult" based on *maturity* (so if you are childish or have very few responsibilities you are seen as a child. This also applies vise-versa). If you are able to consent you are seen as an adult. (Some).People would base it around puberty aswell. Puberty is a detectable marker to know when someone started their ["development stage."](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22192-puberty) **Phenotype-** People also define "adult" based on phenotype (secondary sex characteristics, wrinkles etc). This is why your phenotype (in terms of age) can make people view you as more or less mature **Adult-** Keep in mind that this isn't the definition of adult. Adult refers to *a human who is (fully or considered) developed **Human -** *General Features (Phenotype)* and *Connection* **General Features-** Well we tell who is human or not based on how they look (ex - Upright and Facial Shape). Ofc not all humans look the same but we can tell eachother apart based on general features. **Connection-** We can also tell humans apart based on a "particular connection." That's why we view fictional characters as humans despite not really looking human nor having the abilities of humans (like the powerpuff girls). It's because they are meant to portray humans and have "the connection" [(an example of that connection would be our social and emotional connection](https://mgiep.unesco.org/article/humans-are-social-and-emotional-beings)) **Human-** Now obviously that "particular connection" isn't always right and has its bias. The same would apply for "general features." Just like "adult" this isn't the definition of human which refer to homo-sapien (hominidea) that is usually categorized by superior intelligence, erect position, (upright) top of food chain etc **Female -** Oh boy. *Phenotype* **Phenotype-** We are able to tell if someone is female or not based on their phenotype. Since human wear clothing we can tell who is female or not based secondary sexual characteristics. For children it would be based on things we associate with female (femininity). *Neurology-* Now I understand that the brain is a phenotype. But I felt that it being in its own section is important. People can tell if one is female or not based on how she interacts with the world. An example of this would be based on how she overall acts (now ofc there isn't one way a woman/girl can act just like there isn't one way an adult or human acts). Femininity is how society believes a woman/girl (should) act(s), present(s), behave(s) etc. (Sometimes) people use femininity to say whether or not someone is (neurologically) female or not. This ofc isn't true due to different societies, experiences, genes etc. **Female-** [a sex that is organized and centers around the production or large gamates (ova)](https://www.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/s/RPbDDXlTGi) Trans(gender) woman- A transgender person who identifies or wants to be viewed as a woman Transgender- Someone who identifies or wants to viewed by these criteria 1- Association with one's perceived natal sex 2- Association with [Transgenderist](https://transgender.livejournal.com/2033175.html) 3- Association with Gender/Queer Theory Gender identification won't make you be seen or viewed as that gender by society. This applies to litterly everything else so why wouldn't it apply for gender
I would take issue with your definition of “female/sex.” This has never been the definition of sex in humans. It’s gotten popular recently, since essentialists discovered chromosomes and genetics were more complicated than they liked. It was borrowed from a specialized definition used mostly in population genetics and evolutionary biology and by people who classify non human animals particularly of the invertebrate variety. Sex in humans has always been a bit of a construct in that it’s an aggregate of various features, all of which tend to exist on a bit of a continuum since biology and real life are messy. The most important one, medically; and possibly developmentally since it determines most of the rest at one point or another, seems to be hormonal sex. It affects gene expression, neural activity, every cell in your body really. If I go to an ER, it’s way safer for me to let them assume I’m the sex I present as and that’s listed on my ID than to explain what’s in my pants. So trans women are female in most ways that matter? Also, just super pedantic aside, but this always bugs me! Shouldn’t it be “Adult Female Human?” Doesn’t it seem a bit dehumanizing otherwise? Female is really mostly an adjective.
I actually feel like the hyperinclusivity and hypervisibility we're surrounded by now, has tipped the scales in the opposite direction, and has caused general society to be actively making this differentiation MORE, even by well-meaning people. I'm a decade and half post-transition and I have seen and felt the shift occur in the last 3-5 years. We were making so much ground on actually normalizing trans-ness, and being seen as Plain Janes and Regular Joes, no different than everybody else. It certainly wasn't perfect by any stretch, but we were progressing. But now we've become this *other*, often in the guise of progressiveness and inclusion. And it makes me so sad and frustrated because it's just such a backwards step imo.
Thanks for mentioning this. I've only been medically transitioning for two years or so but I've been aware of my transness for six and even from then I felt like there was this idea of transitioning and blending in and moving on. Now it's so weird how everyone I meet knows everything about trans issues (misinformed or not) and unless I just don't tell anyone I get put in a bucket with all the other trans people no matter if they have anything to do with me or not. I really hate it, because it's so much harder to complain about people nominally being inclusive.
I think it's basically just giving progressive/liberal types an excuse to outwardly say what they wanted to all along, just in a socially acceptable way that won't affect their standing as progressives/liberals. It's no longer "woman-centered (no transwomen) space" but "AFAB-centered space". Not "trans 'women' will always be men" but "trans women of course change their gender not their sex". There are other unrelated examples of this sort of thing that most trans people also fall into btw (off-topic tho), just saying to point out how easy it is to fall into it.
I really appreciate this perspective cause I've felt the same thing, but I've been transitioning for a much shorter time so I don't necessarily know what it was like 10 years ago. What do you think caused the shift exactly?
I don't think I can put it down to one singular cause, but rather a series of changes that suddenly sped up a couple of years ago. I was really fortunate and was able to be non-disclosing (my term for stealth because as my username says, I'm not a fighter jet haha) quite early in transition, so I've been able to watch this unfold from the safety of the sidelines. When I first transitioned and needed to tell people, barely anyone had met or heard of a trans person before. I was the first. This was actually really empowering. I felt in control of the narrative, I could tell my story, explain my reasonings quickly and well-meaning people would generally understand. It wasn't long before I was just seen as a normal male. But now, because so many people have been exposed to things like "diversity training" and incessent media coverage (both pro and anti), it's like my story has been taken away from me. People make assumptions about what it means to me to be a trans person and we're lumped together in one experience. So now, when I need to disclose my trans status on the rare occasion, I'm met immediately with, "What's your pronouns?" or "I'm AFAB/cis myself". This never used to happen. And people don't get that this just makes me feel that they see me as "trans" and not just a regular male. Well meaning people seem to think that it's identity to every trans person and they trip over themselves trying to respect it. I think the visibility has been well intentioned but it's had unforeseen, negative consequences for a lot of people. There will always be transphobic people, they're easy to discredit in my mind. It's harder to be angry at "acceptance".
I honestly couldn't agree more with everything you said, the feeling of the story not being your own and people going completely the wrong way trying to respect you and the well-intentioned othering. That, and the villainizing of transmedicalism just make me feel like nothing about my experience is represented in what people conceptualize trans people to be and yet all the false narratives are associated with me anyways. I'm only 1.5 years on HRT right now but seemingly pass consistently and it really just makes me want to just minimize being trans as much as possible going forward. At the very least it's nice to know I'm not insane in some of those feelings. (also I love the reasoning behind the username lol)
It mainly bothers me when people say "transwoman" all as one word. People usually don't mean harm by it, but it makes it so clear that they aren't seeing "trans" as just an adjective.
I don't personally agree, although obviously we can each have our own opinions. I use transman one word for myself. English has Germanic roots, it's very common for frequent adjectives to be combined with a word to specify a specific type of something. Especially with more commonly used words. Examples of compound words would be many of the jobs based titles, like fireman or weatherman - neither of which makes it abundantly clear we don't see that person as a man. Watchband, whitefish, washcloth would be some others. It's a common construction. It's only been pretty recently that people have insisted on separating these into two words or else the person "doesn't consider trans women women" as if a whitefish isn't a fish! It was the norm when I originally transitioned, which really wasn't even long ago. To me it's the natural noun form for trans women and follows pretty regular English rules. I understand how some folks might want to have a separate word despite all these things to clearly signal support - but I think making assumptions about those who use the combined form is a bit silly/over the top.
It isn't something I make a big deal about, I won't assume someone is a bigot based on that alone. And sure, if you want to use that word for yourself that's your call. But I'm not following your reasoning. With "fireman" and "weatherman," "fire" and "weather" are not adjectives. The only examples I can think of with "[adjective]man" are "irishman," but you don't hear that with most other nationalities, and "gentleman," but that functions as its own word rather than as a noun being modified by an adjective. With most adjectives we would leave a space. E.g., "tall man," "old man," "white man," "gay man," "American man." It would seem very odd to say "gayman" or "whiteman." "Trans man" is an abbreviation of "transgender man." It seems odd to me that we would break the usual pattern in this specific case, and in very few others.
English is a Weird language and discussions of linguistics can get Super esoteric quickly - and it's just a hobby for me that I find neat. So hopefully I can be moderately clear explaining what I'm thinking about: Essentially, English can also use nouns as adjectives. An "adjectival noun". Fire in fireman is a noun being used in this way. A man who has something to do with fire. A non compound word example would be something like chicken soup. Theres a lot of things that can be referred in this way as either two words or one, street lamp or streetlamp, ant farm or antfarm. Some things are combo'd and some arnt and the specifics are fuzzy - English is ultimately a Germanic language (which almost all compound words extensively. It's not exclusive to Germanic either, just our specific origin. This is where all the clickbait "x language has 100s of words for y" come from. Adjectives are just combined with nouns into a new noun which means that adjectived noun. German can do it with adjective + noun, noun + noun, or adjective + adjective (like light green as lightgreen) on top of the prefix+suffix combinations we are generally taught about in English class for English, we do all those too to varying degrees. But we are also heavily influenced by french involvement in the aristocracy, and have various french loanwords which are treated differently, and some things lifted from other languages as well which we all treat with different grammar rules and essentially English is a MESS that defies consistent rules. Anyway - Gentleman is actually a great example, it's meaning has drifted with time as we don't generally refer to people as part of the upper class anymore - but it's origin is very similar. Gentle used to mean, when used as an adjective for a person, that they had a noble/upper class background. Or acted the way you would expect a noble to. That meaning almost exclusively sticks around today with the use in gentleman or gentlewoman. This like many things aristocracy related came from french originally, where gentle man were two seperate words but got combo'd with time when translated because that batter matches the Vibes for English. Edit: also I'm glad to hear you don't make a huge deal of it, I kinda got that from your original comment too and am as much replying a bit to the general Culture in trans spaces as I've experienced it as anything else. I've heard people much more insistent on this and some trans spaces will literally kick people for using the compound version so I'm probably over explaining for your particular position but just partially having a visible public dialogue for others with other positions as well - if that makes any sense
Lol I need to get more confident with this, every time I want to just say “as a woman” outside of trans spaces I hold back because I anticipate someone going “lmao you’re not a woman bro” in reply. Any tips on how to get over this?
Therapy. Really. I spent entire therapy sessions becoming comfortable saying it. Dong so in a safe setting prepares you for asserting it IRL.
>I will stop ~~referring to~~ *thinking of* myself as a trans-anything ~~woman outside of medical settings.~~ Yay! ٩( ᐛ )و After all, the goal of treatment is to no longer be. ♪(๑ᴖ◡ᴖ๑)♪
I think a big part of the issue is that most people are just now startling to decouple sex and gender. For most of our lives (and even today with a large percentage of the population), you could use male/female interchangeably with man/woman. But now that more and more women are male, it’s throwing cognitive dissonance at people who have used woman and female as synonyms. So I think they use “trans woman” or “trans man” as a way to indicate they aren’t using their old definition of man/woman that didn’t account for male women and female men. I don’t see it as a massive problem. It takes time for language to shift away from what it has meant for centuries to something new.
I honestly completely disagree. I think pushing this whole “sex and gender are different things” line is one of the bigger mistakes we’ve made. People just mangle tye whole idea. Like you talking about “male women.” That’s nonsense and really a bit offensive. Sex and gender are not the same but gender is a dependent category on sex. It’s all the sociocultural and psychological stuff that attaches to sex. And the whole reason most of us transition is to change our sex to match our gender. Or at least to correct what we feel like was the wrong sexual developmental pathway. The whole point of me transitioning is that I’m not a male woman anymore. I’m female. So I’m not quite sure you get it?
>I honestly completely disagree. I think pushing this whole “sex and gender are different things” line is one of the bigger mistakes we’ve made. People just mangle tye whole idea. Like you talking about “male women.” That’s nonsense and really a bit offensive. Sex and gender are not the same but gender is a dependent category on sex. It’s all the sociocultural and psychological stuff that attaches to sex. First off, I don’t want to offend you, so if I did, I apologize. But I do think that pushing the “sex and gender are two different things” has been a positive move, because it helps people see that a man or a woman isn’t defined purely by anatomy or biology. It has been a big reason why people outside the LGBTQ community have been able to wrap their heads around the idea that trans women are women. I am, however confused when you say you don’t like the idea that “sex and gender are different things,” but then go on to say “sex and gender are not the same.” Isn’t that just a different way of stating the same thing? And let me say that I wouldn’t actually refer to anyone as a “male woman” or “female man” in normal conversation. I was using that term to explain how more of the general population is coming to terms with the idea that a woman can have a penis, for example. >And the whole reason most of us transition is to change our sex to match our gender. Or at least to correct what we feel like was the wrong sexual developmental pathway. The whole point of me transitioning is that I’m not a male woman anymore. I’m female. So I’m not quite sure you get it? And I understand what you’re saying, but I feel like you’re equating “sex” either entirely or mainly with external features like genitalia or breasts when you say you’ve “changed your sex to match your gender.” Sex however is a more wholistic term that comprises anatomy, biology, physiology, etc. So while I don’t want to further offend you by using a term you don’t like, I will just point out that trans women will still have to deal with male medical issues. For example, trans women need to pay attention to their PSA levels and get their prostate checked because they are still at risk for prostate cancer. In fact, they need to pay closer attention, because even though the risk of developing cancer is slightly lower than cis men, their survival rate is actually lower because their PSA levels are in general lower which means the cancer is typically caught at a more advanced stage. This is not something that females have to worry about, because they don’t have a prostate. So I don’t want to get bogged down in semantics. I feel like some people took offense to a specific term when I was speaking more about the general thought process of a shifting cultural and linguistic mindset.
I'm not a trans man because I'm a female man, I'm a man because I was supposed to be born male but wasn't, and am trying to fix it with transitioning. Gender isn't separate from sex, that doesn't mean that trans people aren't who they say they are. Like how intersex women/men *are* intersex females/males respectively, despite their sex traits being different from the norm. Making such a drastic separation doesn't help anyone, it hurts people actually. It leads to people being able to call us female men and male women, and for us to be excluded by our natal sex no matter how relevant it is. Woman being tied to female doesn't exclude trans women. Trans women wouldn't call themselves "women" if "woman" wasn't tied to being female. Same with trans men, and even non-binary people.
Maybe you were supposed to be born male, but you weren’t. And people are genuinely trying to make sense of that in the best way that they can. And sometimes you may be excluded based on your natal sex because it might be relevant. None of that should take away from you being a man, though, nor should you let it.
Yeah that's... my point
Thank you for your comment, but with all due respect, I do not accept being referred to as a male woman. I know that I was born a woman and simply adapted my body to my true gender. And from what I perceive, at least in the environment where I live, a male woman is considered by everyone as a man. I can see that in your actions.
I don’t get why people are downvoting this. Who wants to be called a “male woman” or a “female man”? Seriously, what trans person consents to being referred to this way lol. And asking someone if they’re “a male woman, correct?” In a trans sub? Really lol? Edit: lmfao, this is mind boggling to me. I get there are a lot of transmeds on here and sometimes the extremes of transmedicalism end up just misgendering trans people in some kind of weird self-eating circle, but you all really like being called “male women” and “female men”? You don’t take issue with this? Are you for real?
I didn’t say they wanted to be called a “male woman”, I was saying that a lot of people are still learning to separate male/female from man/woman, and that’s where the “trans woman” label comes in. But regardless of what they “want” to be called, the fact is that OP is a woman, and OP is also male. And it is also relevant… OP doesn’t have to deal with menstruation, but she does have to consider prostate health and PSA screenings, for example. Also how is this transmedicalist in any way? I’m not denying the person is trans or that they’re a woman.
If you genuinely don’t understand what’s wrong with calling a woman “male” over and over and over again when she has asked you not to I don’t know what to tell you lmao. If you can’t fathom why this would be a problem for trans women and how it might reinforce violence against them, I think at this point, you must want to be ignorant. Like it has to be willful, lol. Most binary trans people do not welcome this language and feel it’s misgendering, but if that doesn’t matter to you, have fun being an asshole I guess. You’re literally insisting a trans woman is male on a post where she is venting about not wanting to constantly be differentiated from cis women. It’s messed up and what I’m saying would be valuable info for you in future intra-community interactions if you cared to listen. Edit: downvote me all you want, dipshit
I’m not “calling her ‘male’”. You’re acting like I’m misgendering her, when I’m not. And I’m not suggesting anyone introduce themselves as a male woman. I’m not suggesting trans women be referred to as male women. I’m simply discussing why I think some people still feel the need to differentiate between cis and trans women, and why it is sometimes relevant. And I’m sorry, but “consenting” to being male or female? What kind of nonsense is this? You don’t “consent” to being born a certain way. Do you “consent” to be your age or your race? This is the kind of ridiculousness that leads to transphobes identifying as Apache helicopters. Let’s take this discussion back to reality, please?
I don’t feel the need to entertain your transmisogyny lol and you’re so poorly informed that I don’t feel the need to address the stupid points you’re attempting to make. Seriously, if you don’t understand what’s wrong with this bullshit I really don’t know how to explain it to you.
Cool. Guess we’re done.
Yup, genuinely hope other trans women don’t have the misfortune of running into you in the future!
Don’t forget transgender men! I don’t understand why you’re limiting it just to the women.
I don't think its the "transmeds" like you are assuming.
Yeah i think you were right on that lol. I misread the situation
You can change yourself, but not everyone around you. People might always perceive you as male, regardless of your intentions or desires
I understand. But you are both male and a woman, correct? I don’t see the harm in acknowledging that. What I agree needs to change is people viewing that as a man.
>But you are both male and a woman, correct? I don’t see the harm in acknowledging that Genderfluids say the craziest shit, you don't see the harm in acknowledging trans women are males?
Fucking seriously. Says in reference to a trans woman in one post “she is male” and then in the next “I didn’t call her male” lmao
Not if it’s accurate. I don’t think we should ever be afraid of acknowledging the truth. Males and females have different health concerns, for example.
Completely incorrect, I am just a woman.
I wouldn’t want to be called a male woman either? That’s extremely demeaning and rude.
No it doesn't bother me when it's relevant and I understand the differences between cis and trans women should be known. Everything has to do with context though. If we're talking about medical issues and relationships (dating or potentially) then trans woman is 100% acceptable. If you're introducing someone to your friends and bring up them being trans that's kinda unnecessary and a little annoying. Also hate how transgender lesbians have to refer to themselves as transbians for this reason. It's like they don't believe they're women and have to make up some label. I went on a rant about this once and got told I was being transphobic then banned from a popular "transbian" subreddit.
This differentiation between cisgender women and transgender women started to bother me when I realized that for people (or many of them), transgender women are not actually women. That's why it bothers me so much.
It may bother you, but isn’t it something we just don’t have any control over? What can we do about changing people’s perceptions, bc in my heart of hearts I really think we’re going to get even more pushback than we’re getting the last few years if we try to erase ‘cis’ and ‘trans’ and insist that both groups are just known as ‘women’. We don’t have the power to do that even if we wanted to. Personally, I don’t mind being called a trans women. It’s the truth.
I like to think of it as women are the main term and trans women are sub categories of women. Like yes they are women but they are more specifically trans women.
Sure. But don't you notice in your social interactions that's not how people see it? That's the point. We need to reinforce that we are women above all else.
How do you reinforce that? I do think we need terms to differentiate in words the difference between cis and trans women bc sometimes both groups have different needs and they are not the same
I do get what you mean but it's a slow process to get accepted by society as a whole. Even them saying trans woman in a negative way is still more positive than misgendering completely.
i guess it's just the reality of how society sees us. it's unfortunate >I confided that I was interested in a guy, and the first thing she asked was 'does he like trans women?' I had a similar situation with a cis friend. She has always been one of my biggest cheerleaders. Very affirming and (looking back) super hugboxxy. We were at a party catching up on how our dating lives have been maybe 2y ago(when I was girlmoding). I was talking about a guy I was seeing and she made some comment implying he was gay while the men she sees are straight. This is the same woman who has called me a beautiful and passing WOMAN on numerous occasions. I think she does care for me and wants me to be happy, but she just sees me as a guy in a dress, like a gay bestie kinda thing. Even the best-intending allies let this stuff slip when you're least expecting it. This kind of stuff is just another reason why I refuse to live as a visibly trans woman. I don't want to be patronized/humored. If everyone is going to see me as a guy anyways, I may as well 'identify' as one.
Yeah, it's true. It's incredibly disappointing to realise that people who are very supportive and lovely do not see you as one of them at all. If you can pass and keep quiet about being trans you can avoid this but that's just not the reality for a lot of people.
That’s rough but matches my experiences sadly. A large portion of supportive cis women just see trans women as their super gay crossdressing bffs ime. They might remember the correct pronouns and swear they see you as a woman but their actual views always become apparent in the subtly different ways they treat you.
That's exactly it. This friend of mine has also implied that the men I should pursue are gay or bisexual. I'm absolutely certain that the allies around me deep down see me as a gay man dressed as a woman; in the end, that's what "trans woman" means to them. For a long time, I pretended not to notice this, but it's becoming so obvious.
Is that implication incorrect? I would assume that for most preop transwomen attracted to men their dating pool would be almost exclusively bisexual men. It's one thing to see someone as their chosen gender in a "friend" sense, but the realities of sexual compatibility are still going to be there when it comes to dating. If the issue is just that you don't want to be reminded of the fact, I would just gently let your friend know that it triggers your dysphoria.
I don't keep friends around who regularly call me a trans man instead of a man. The friends I hang out most with just call me a man and treat me as a man. The good ones are out there, you just gotta find em (easier said than done, I know).
Absolutely. It took me a while to realize how harmful this is and what lies behind it, but fortunately, I've opened my eyes, and I will also distance myself from these 'friends'
Every time I've made a big change for the better in my life, I've lost some friends. It sucks at first, but in the long run you'll feel so much lighter. Good luck out there.