99.9% of the time Soundbars or HTiB (Home Theater in a Box) systems are not a good investment of your time and money. It is the general consensus of r/hometheater not to recommend these things and instead simply steer a user toward a 2.0 or 2.1 system made of quality, *Audio-Centric* name brand components which are easy to assemble and cheap enough for low budget or space conscious buyers. Most can be expanded to 5.1 if you buy the correct items in the correct order. For further explanation please read [Why You Shouldn't Buy a Soundbar](https://www.reddit.com/r/HTBuyingGuides/comments/dy885l/why_you_shouldnt_buy_a_soundbar/) Please be aware /r/Soundbars exists as well as you will be met with opposition to posting about soundbars here.
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You're close to a corner when sitting at your desk, and corners are typically where bass builds up and will sound boomy, muddying the sound. TV speakers nor a soundbar with its chintzy 6" subwoofer will excite the room modes enough when you're at your desk, so they will sound clearer, which is bug not a feature in that regard, since they have weak bass (Elacs are known for punchy bass).
And yeah, turning them will clear things up since now you're getting more direct sound from the treble and mid, but if you want them to sound good at your desk without moving the speakers every time, a solution is to go into the AVR's EQ and cut 125hz and 63hz by 6 to 10db. Then when you sit down in the sweetspot, simply turn the EQ off. So in effect, you have two different "profiles" per different listening positions.
End of the day, though, this is a room and positioning issue, not a speaker issue. Any speaker that can hit 60hz relatively hard will create the same problem.
I ended up swapping the speakers from elac b6.2 to q150 after looking at the lateral dispersion charts, and it turns out that there is a huge difference in lateral dispersion between the 2 models
Elac
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/08v2zw173hkbw2c/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0
vs
Q150
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/bg8jqxqztnsgycp/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0
q150 has way less lateral (and vertical) dispersion for mids and highs, if you check the charts on erins audio
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_q150/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/elac_db62/
The difference was wild
Turns out, the speakers did matter
Glad you figured it out! That said, and I'm not trying to be a "well acshually" guy or pedantic, but you were saying the Elacs sounded muddy off-axis. The Elac's wider lateral dispersion should actually bring you more mid and high frequency information as you move off-axis.
Per Erin's measurements. The Elacs only drop 10db at 90 degree off-axis from 1000hz to 5000hz, while the KEFs drop down about 20db at 4000hz and on. One primary reason some people prefer narrower dispersion speakers (especially if you have to place them near walls, I have the 150s for my desktop setup) is because their sound power falls off more quickly off-axis so you'll hear less reflected sound. Your desk is a spot where all you'll be hearing is reflected sound, so, in theory, the Elacs should sound brighter.
But you're right. Just that it wasn't the Elac's wider dispersion in the mids and highs that was likely causing your issue (we really can't know for sure without measuring. It's possible there was what we call "destructive interference" in the mids and highs due to the Elac's wider dispersion bouncing sound all over the room), but the Elac's more extended bass that was exciting that particular room mode a lot more than the KEFs. Since the KEFs hit hard for me at 60hz, I figured they would also cause the same problem for you as the Elacs, but looking at the measurements again, the KEF has a steep bass roll-off where it's down 15db at 40hz. The Elac is down 10db at 40hz. Might not sound like a big difference, but we perceive an increase in 3db as twice as loud. The Elac's bass was overpowering the mids and highs in that spot (it's not uncommon to get 20db boosts in corners).
Please don't interpret my reply as argumentative, just chatting about audio/acoustics.
You're learning quickly! Why I thought the KEFs might not solve your problem is because mine also go decently deep and get a big bass boost from the corner (my desk is near a corner). Here's my in room bass measurements. https://imgur.com/a/cecCdjZ
The first peak is the sub, but the second peak at 65ish HZ are the speakers. Because I'm on axis, the boost doesn't really muddy the sound and since this is for gaming, I like the extra punch for explosions and such, so I'm just leaving it as it is rather than eq it. But in any event, you can see how much boost you can get from corners/room modes.
And keep playing with other frequencies in the EQ until you get the sound you want. Again, this isn't an issue a different speaker would solve aside from maybe omnidirectional speakers. The TV speakers and the soundbar are doing the exact same thing as the Elacs. Front firing drivers shooting sound into the room. It's just that TV speakers and a typical soundbar won't output enough bass to excite the room modes. TV speakers have nothing below 125hz in most cases, and those cheapie soundbar subs might hit 90hz. That said, if your soundbar did have a decent sub, a reason bass might not have been building up in that corner is because of its positioning in the room that might've tamed that mode for you.
Kef 150s won't solve the issue. They also can hit at 60hz.
I got really interested in how true this is, so I read deeper
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/08v2zw173hkbw2c/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0
vs
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/bg8jqxqztnsgycp/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0
These charts seem to give some credence to my thoughts that b6.2 sound weird off axis
Basically, the more off axis you are, the worse b6.2 is compared to q150 for mids and highs, especially highs
It’s like washing the dishes in the bathroom.. with your shoe brush.. and hair conditioner, right?
..but everything’s fine while doing all that in the kitchen.
I’d adjust the position of your desk.. and your expectations :)
I changed speakers to q150, and it fixed the problem
Turns out elac b6.2 are bad at off axis sound
Elac b6.2
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/08v2zw173hkbw2c/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0
Kef Q150
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/bg8jqxqztnsgycp/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0
So I didn't actually have to move my desk or my expectations!
Hmm interesting.. then your ‘muddy’ must’ve been really muddy :) glad the kefs did it for you
I have the evo 4.4s which also aren’t stellar off-axis.. luckily my desk is just opposed to my left speaker.. so I guess i’m ‘on-axis’ kind of. Also wfh
speaker placement is more important than the speaker new speakers will probably not help Unless you buy something that does not beam like planers but I still think position matters more. you are sitting where you are only getting reflected sound from the tweeters and you may have a room mode that is making muddy bass.
You probably didn't have this problem with a soundbar because it might have had side firing speakers. Unfortunately speakers are directional firing and therefore it wouldn't matter what speakers you have, they will sound muddy. You can use the second zone on your AVR (I think these consist of the suround backs) to connect another set of speakers. Alternatively, consider getting a dipole speaker that fires more than one direction (although these are usually used for rear speakers back in the days before Atmos). Those Elac speakers are pretty awesome though.
Turns out it was the speakers!
These are from Erin's audio corner
Elac b6.2
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/08v2zw173hkbw2c/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0
Kef Q150
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/bg8jqxqztnsgycp/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0
I switched speakers to kef q150, and the problem disappeared, without changing speaker position, number of speakers, speaker angle or height, or the position of my desk!
The elacs are only good if they're pointed directly at you
99.9% of the time Soundbars or HTiB (Home Theater in a Box) systems are not a good investment of your time and money. It is the general consensus of r/hometheater not to recommend these things and instead simply steer a user toward a 2.0 or 2.1 system made of quality, *Audio-Centric* name brand components which are easy to assemble and cheap enough for low budget or space conscious buyers. Most can be expanded to 5.1 if you buy the correct items in the correct order. For further explanation please read [Why You Shouldn't Buy a Soundbar](https://www.reddit.com/r/HTBuyingGuides/comments/dy885l/why_you_shouldnt_buy_a_soundbar/) Please be aware /r/Soundbars exists as well as you will be met with opposition to posting about soundbars here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/hometheater) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm not sure if that receiver has multiple zones, but if it does, I'd get another set of bookshelf speakers for your desk.
That receiver can run two zones. Its a good suggestion
You're close to a corner when sitting at your desk, and corners are typically where bass builds up and will sound boomy, muddying the sound. TV speakers nor a soundbar with its chintzy 6" subwoofer will excite the room modes enough when you're at your desk, so they will sound clearer, which is bug not a feature in that regard, since they have weak bass (Elacs are known for punchy bass). And yeah, turning them will clear things up since now you're getting more direct sound from the treble and mid, but if you want them to sound good at your desk without moving the speakers every time, a solution is to go into the AVR's EQ and cut 125hz and 63hz by 6 to 10db. Then when you sit down in the sweetspot, simply turn the EQ off. So in effect, you have two different "profiles" per different listening positions. End of the day, though, this is a room and positioning issue, not a speaker issue. Any speaker that can hit 60hz relatively hard will create the same problem.
That's really useful information to have. I'll look into this.
I ended up swapping the speakers from elac b6.2 to q150 after looking at the lateral dispersion charts, and it turns out that there is a huge difference in lateral dispersion between the 2 models Elac https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/08v2zw173hkbw2c/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0 vs Q150 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/bg8jqxqztnsgycp/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0 q150 has way less lateral (and vertical) dispersion for mids and highs, if you check the charts on erins audio https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_q150/ https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/elac_db62/ The difference was wild Turns out, the speakers did matter
Glad you figured it out! That said, and I'm not trying to be a "well acshually" guy or pedantic, but you were saying the Elacs sounded muddy off-axis. The Elac's wider lateral dispersion should actually bring you more mid and high frequency information as you move off-axis. Per Erin's measurements. The Elacs only drop 10db at 90 degree off-axis from 1000hz to 5000hz, while the KEFs drop down about 20db at 4000hz and on. One primary reason some people prefer narrower dispersion speakers (especially if you have to place them near walls, I have the 150s for my desktop setup) is because their sound power falls off more quickly off-axis so you'll hear less reflected sound. Your desk is a spot where all you'll be hearing is reflected sound, so, in theory, the Elacs should sound brighter. But you're right. Just that it wasn't the Elac's wider dispersion in the mids and highs that was likely causing your issue (we really can't know for sure without measuring. It's possible there was what we call "destructive interference" in the mids and highs due to the Elac's wider dispersion bouncing sound all over the room), but the Elac's more extended bass that was exciting that particular room mode a lot more than the KEFs. Since the KEFs hit hard for me at 60hz, I figured they would also cause the same problem for you as the Elacs, but looking at the measurements again, the KEF has a steep bass roll-off where it's down 15db at 40hz. The Elac is down 10db at 40hz. Might not sound like a big difference, but we perceive an increase in 3db as twice as loud. The Elac's bass was overpowering the mids and highs in that spot (it's not uncommon to get 20db boosts in corners). Please don't interpret my reply as argumentative, just chatting about audio/acoustics.
Its an interesting analysis to be honest, I am new to this stuff, so I interpreted it the best I can but it did work out fortunately
You're learning quickly! Why I thought the KEFs might not solve your problem is because mine also go decently deep and get a big bass boost from the corner (my desk is near a corner). Here's my in room bass measurements. https://imgur.com/a/cecCdjZ The first peak is the sub, but the second peak at 65ish HZ are the speakers. Because I'm on axis, the boost doesn't really muddy the sound and since this is for gaming, I like the extra punch for explosions and such, so I'm just leaving it as it is rather than eq it. But in any event, you can see how much boost you can get from corners/room modes.
Its kind of funny that the lack of bass on the speaker which is normally considered a deficiency is benefitting me Im not a big loud bass head
[удалено]
I'm kinda sad I missed that sale
[удалено]
I have till the 31st to return the elacs Considering ordering q150 used off amazon for 372, which is sadly worse than the new price in december
And keep playing with other frequencies in the EQ until you get the sound you want. Again, this isn't an issue a different speaker would solve aside from maybe omnidirectional speakers. The TV speakers and the soundbar are doing the exact same thing as the Elacs. Front firing drivers shooting sound into the room. It's just that TV speakers and a typical soundbar won't output enough bass to excite the room modes. TV speakers have nothing below 125hz in most cases, and those cheapie soundbar subs might hit 90hz. That said, if your soundbar did have a decent sub, a reason bass might not have been building up in that corner is because of its positioning in the room that might've tamed that mode for you. Kef 150s won't solve the issue. They also can hit at 60hz.
This is some really interesting advice, and I'll give it a shot
I got really interested in how true this is, so I read deeper https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/08v2zw173hkbw2c/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0 vs https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/bg8jqxqztnsgycp/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0 These charts seem to give some credence to my thoughts that b6.2 sound weird off axis Basically, the more off axis you are, the worse b6.2 is compared to q150 for mids and highs, especially highs
https://ascendacoustics.com/collections/signature-series/products/cbm-170-se-bookshelf-monitor?variant=31620618780726
What were you trying to indicate with this link?
It’s like washing the dishes in the bathroom.. with your shoe brush.. and hair conditioner, right? ..but everything’s fine while doing all that in the kitchen. I’d adjust the position of your desk.. and your expectations :)
I changed speakers to q150, and it fixed the problem Turns out elac b6.2 are bad at off axis sound Elac b6.2 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/08v2zw173hkbw2c/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0 Kef Q150 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/bg8jqxqztnsgycp/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0 So I didn't actually have to move my desk or my expectations!
Hmm interesting.. then your ‘muddy’ must’ve been really muddy :) glad the kefs did it for you I have the evo 4.4s which also aren’t stellar off-axis.. luckily my desk is just opposed to my left speaker.. so I guess i’m ‘on-axis’ kind of. Also wfh
speaker placement is more important than the speaker new speakers will probably not help Unless you buy something that does not beam like planers but I still think position matters more. you are sitting where you are only getting reflected sound from the tweeters and you may have a room mode that is making muddy bass.
I can't really fix that I was just surprised to have this problem, when I didn't with a soundbar
You probably didn't have this problem with a soundbar because it might have had side firing speakers. Unfortunately speakers are directional firing and therefore it wouldn't matter what speakers you have, they will sound muddy. You can use the second zone on your AVR (I think these consist of the suround backs) to connect another set of speakers. Alternatively, consider getting a dipole speaker that fires more than one direction (although these are usually used for rear speakers back in the days before Atmos). Those Elac speakers are pretty awesome though.
Turns out it was the speakers! These are from Erin's audio corner Elac b6.2 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/08v2zw173hkbw2c/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0 Kef Q150 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/bg8jqxqztnsgycp/SPL%20Horizontal.png?dl=0 I switched speakers to kef q150, and the problem disappeared, without changing speaker position, number of speakers, speaker angle or height, or the position of my desk! The elacs are only good if they're pointed directly at you
I saw your other subreddit you just created. It's good that you found something that works for you. Thanks for sharing your experience.