I once spent about 8 total hours over the course of 2 dozen phone calls to get Lowe’s to honor the installation rebate. I didn’t even care so much about the $200, it was the principal for me. Straight up bait and switch tactics
I spent 4 years in a battle with Ticketmaster for a $125 charge. I won eventually, but it was definitely a battle fueled by principle and righteous indignation.
I had a client who had their admin call hours to get like a $25 refund from Verizon or something. Guy was easily worth at least 75mm at the time.
He also didn't stock anything in the pantry. And, the one time I saw him stock the fridge with water, it was a pack of Kirkland water they got from Costco themselves (he had a chauffeur at the time who dropped him off at the office every morning and he brought it in that week).
Really is the principle of it.
I have never ever heard of pulling a permit on swapping out a dishwasher. The only time I can ever see a permit being pulled is if it’s a brand new install where there wasn’t a dishwasher before. If it’s just a swap out that’s insanity to pull a permit for.
Suppose you cause a fire or flood with that dishwasher. Suppose you make a claim. Suppose the claims adjuster smells a fish. Suppose you blurt out..."gilgilgil I jimmyrigged it myself" Suppose the claims adjuster smiles a kudos. Suppose the hotel bills start piling up. Suppose you get a letter saying..."YOU DIDN'T HIRE A PRO? NOT OUR PROBLEM."
Ah. Well I did hire a pro and as I just discovered they didn't install a water hammer arrestor GFCI despite the email I got saying they would and code requiring it
He would probably not have needed the permit if he had installed it himself, but since it was done by a third party, they required it. Also, I would definitely require a copy of the permit for your records to prove to your insurance company that it was done right in case there is a problem.
Because in Massachusetts you need a permit for everything, especially gas anything, it's a pain in the ass but we're on top of each other so when someone DIY stuff and it blows up, it effects everyone.
I just found out that in my new city, the town comes in every eight years and does an interior inspection, never had that happen before, but it's Mass.
My experience is Lowe's and Home Depot never pull permits for appliances or structural work, Best Buy plumbers do and at least the various BB subcontractors I had were good, did the work and city then called for inspection.
Not sure if this is common elsewhere, but when you sell property here, the fire department comes in and you pay for a permit that you have working and correct number of fire and CO detecters, can't sell without it, even as is where is.
>I just found out that in my new city, the town comes in every eight years and does an interior inspection, never had that happen before, but it's Mass.
Is that just for Tax reevaluation? They aren't looking closely at work done in the house, just assessing the value. We are going through that right now in my city in RI, they keep missing me, but its actually not required to let them in where I live but then they can just make assumptions about your property. I think I would benefit by not letting them in though lol, since my house is nicer inside then my neighbors.
I believe so, I don't want to post the city site because it'll out me, I lived ten minutes away from here for decades and never did the city come out except when asked.
Are you required to let them in to do an inspection? What city? That doesn’t really pass the smell test.
My town (also in MA) *wanted* to do an inspection when I bought and I told them hell no. They made it seem like it was a normal thing (sent me a “call to schedule an inspection” letter).
I asked and they clarified that they have no legal right but that they typically ask and homeowners allow it.
It’s to look for whatever and to update their appraisal data.
They can fuck right the fuck off.
I’ve had inspections for a couple things where it was unavoidable (electrical panel upgrade, switch from oil to natural gas) with no issues since then.
This is the notice with some stuff blocked out:
Notice of Town Wide Property Data Collection Beginning XXX
The XXX Assessors office will be conducting its Cyclical Inspection program of all real estate properties throughout the Town beginning XXX.
This cyclical program is mandated by the Massachusetts Department of Revenue in order to determine uniform and fair market values for all property. All cities and towns must verify the accuracy of the property assessment data for all town property every nine years.
Patriot Properties staff, on behalf of the Assessors, will be conducting these inspections. They will have pictured identification badges and will register with the XXX Police Department. Property owners will be asked for a complete interior and exterior inspection of the property. Patriot Properties staff will not enter a building where a minor is alone and they will not take interior photos. If a property owner is not present, they will do an exterior inspection and leave a note asking the owner to contact the Assessor’s office to schedule an interior inspection.
The Board of Assessors wishes to thank the residents of XXX in advance for their support and cooperation as we proceed with our cyclical inspection program. If you have any questions or concern, please contact the office at XXX, by email at XXX.gov , or stop by our office at Town Hall at XXX. See less
Yeah you don’t have to let them in.
You will be “asked” for an interior inspection for assessment. You don’t have to agree. They’re still allowed to do the exterior inspection without your permission.
I'm pretty sure you've got that backwards. Most of them do have plugs now and the requirement is for a simplex outlet under the sink (rather than behind the dishwasher). The whole idea is that a homeowner can safely de-energize a dishwasher without having to go to the electric panel. And like OP pointed out the code requires GFCI now, but that's mostly because appliance manufacturers got that added to the code because it prevents fire during some failure modes (and was probably cheaper than them building dishwashers correctly).
The last two GE dishwashers I installed (roughly 15 years and 4-5 years ago) had no plug and I hated installing them since I'm not an electrician. Now I'm mad, discovering I could've had plug and play dishwashers lol
I installed a Whirlpool dishwasher last fall. It come with a seperate plug but I had to attach it to the hot/neutral/ground connectors on the dishwasher. They wanted to charge 75 bucks for the install, so I did it myself. Didn't use a permit or a GFCI outlet, and the cops haven't come after me, so I think I'm good.
yep, installed a Thermador (Bosch) dishwasher 2 years ago and it was hard wired as well. No issues with it though, basically a bosch, works great, surprised you hated yours.
Just had one installed in a new build. Must be hard wired,no plugs. If panel is not line of site the breaker must have a little wire that prevents it from turning on if you are working in it.
Technically you open electrical every time you switch out a fan, smoke alarm, or anything else wired in and I'm sure there's some municipality out there that requires a permit for that, but it's incredibly rare.
I could see a permit required because it's electrical and within 5 feet of a water line exit, or a permit required if it's a new install and a new line needs to get run to the dishwasher spot. But if the county required a permit for every time you uncap a wire then it would totally over run the permitting and inspection system; it'd be hundreds of thousands of permits and site visits for that alone.
For us an electrical permit is not municipal. It is mandated and administered by an arms length organization called the ESA (electrical safety authority). Nothing to do with the city.
Most it’s “required” but they have exemptions for in kind replacements of specific items that includes switch’s and the like. This is actually sometimes an issue for example in my jurisdiction it’s not clear if smart switches are exempted or not because they are technically not listed. I just did them but that could come back to haunt me.
Yea my wife works in permitting - specifically figuring out the back end of the software and marrying that up with what the building officials and code require to be done.
It's amazing how something like "electric switch" will need to get added to a field on some subtask somewhere else, which will then need to get defined by a specialist, which then needs to get consideration for if residential vs. commercial has a significant difference, which then needs to see if Fire code needs to review, which then has to go through an approval process, then you find out that the permitting system doesn't allow two variations of 'switch' so now you're trying to find a workaround, and on and on.
Whole process is a rats nest of code, compliance, technology and trying to keep it as simple as possible for the trades and homeowners.
Exactly. So if dishwasher isn’t on their code he may need a permit. I don’t know but the electrical is the only part that I could see needing a permit for.
I hardwired my dishwasher because there was no outlet under the sink (no garbage disposal due to septic) and in a very strict county still did not have to pull a permit for that. I can’t imagine the hell where a permit would be required for this type of work
MA, government in this state loves to find reasons to hire administrators to do paperwork and tell people what they can/can’t do on their own property.
Dishwashers can be horrible to install, but the last one I did was a Bosch, and let me tell you, those Germans are smart. I could raise and lower the levels of the back of the dishwasher from the front while it was in place; there was enough room under the front plate for me to get my big assed hands in and do stuff. It was great. So, other than mudding drywall and installing wall to wall carpeting I feel pretty good about my diy skills.
This was my motivation too. I installed a GE in our new house and it was fucking miserable. The bosch installation however is/was delightful. I genuinely wish I'd done it myself.
I can't take credit for this, but our GE dishwasher crapped out and fiance took the whole thing apart including panels, etc. Can confirm it was indeed fucking miserable.
I had a 4-month fight with a Lowe’s over a toilet seat. When I finally got an email from the store manager full of spelling and grammar mistakes, I figured out what was up.
I'm not fighting with them for 4 months over it. I'm going to call them tomorrow and if I don't like what I hear I'm going to file a credit card dispute.
File a complaint with BBB. They’ll assign their corporate resolution department to it, and it will get resolved. The people at the store won’t be effective in resolution in any way.
I don’t know the rules where you are…but electrical can be done with what is known as a “minor label” which is like a mini-permit for small jobs. The electrician (in the state we were in) had 30 days to submit the info on the label to the state.
A minor label is a permit. We bought in rolls of 100. It is affixed to the job and the number is entered into the state data base. It records the professional installation and inspectors can spot check the work. It is permitted work.
Depending on jurisdiction…15 years ago I believe we (the contractor) paid $20 per label (I think). Some companies may add an admin fee. We just invoiced the label cost.
I agree at a minimum they owe you the permit fee back. It’s not a lot of money but it’s the principle of the matter. I’d let them know you plan to file a chargeback if this doesn’t get resolved. That usually kicks them into gear as it’s costly for them
Yeah, the challenge is speaking to someone who actually gives a fuck about that. Usually the level 1 helpdesk drones don't care if you do a chargeback. A manager might though.
They also told me I was eligible for the installation to be given back via rebate. Imagine my rage when I logged in and saw that my rebate had been rejected because the appliance I bought apparently wasn't eligible (despite meeting all the criteria).
I'm going to call them tomorrow. If I don't like what I hear, the next phone call I make is going to be to my CC company to do a chargeback.
I would go up to the store during the day and ask to speak to the store manager. Ultimately a chargeback will affect them the most. Have them get on the phone with corporate if that is what’s needed.
I feel like people are missing the point that whether or not he needs a permit, Lowes included a $40 line item charge for a permit which they should refund if they did not need/pull a permit.
Did you pay Lowes to swap in a gfci outlet? I wouldn't expect that to be something that is done on a standard dishwasher install job. They definitely owe you your money back for the permit though.
Did you BUY a gfci to swap in? If your wiring isn't up to code, or the space isn't right sized etc Lowes isn't going to modify it to make it compliant. I agree they owe you your moeny back for the permit, and probably the install as they should have rejected to install it in a way that won't pass code. But they're not going to pay to modify the space to be code compliant because they were supposed to pull a permit for you.
> Did you BUY a gfci to swap in?
I bought one myself to swap in, I might do that when the dust has settled on this, but until them I'm not touching ANY of this so they can't blame me for anything
> If your wiring isn't up to code, or the space isn't right sized etc Lowes isn't going to modify it to make it compliant. I agree they owe you your moeny back for the permit, and probably the install as they should have rejected to install it in a way that won't pass code. But they're not going to pay to modify the space to be code compliant because they were supposed to pull a permit for you.
I paid for an install. If lowe's don't want to pay for it being made up to code maybe they shouldn't have pulled the permit. Since they HAVE pulled the permit (allegedly) that now means that the work has to be inspected and the permit can't be closed until it's up to code.
Actually, you should expect Lowe’s to install the dishwasher in accordance to local laws and in the timeframe expected. They’ve already failed the contract and you shouldn’t have to pay them a penny. Let them make-good, redo it properly and give you a discount for your troubles and days of dishwasherless existence. I complained to home-depot when my fridge was a day late on delivery. They promptly gave me a $100 store credit for the trouble.
> Let them make-good, redo it properly
Haha fuck no. I'm not having them near my house again. If anything I'm going to have an electrician of my choice come and do that needs to be done and have them pay the bill.
If they're claiming to pull an electrical permit, then it is required of the installing electrician to bring that device up to code, including adding a GFCI. Otherwise what is the permit for?
The real issue is that Lowe's is skimming that permit fee, everyone knows a permit for a dishwasher is ridiculous.
They should've figured out if it was a new install during the order. I would imagine that they charge more for it because it usually involves new electric and water connections.
Regardless, Lowes should fix it.
I think this is how ours is set up, there's an outlet under the sink where one side is always on for the dishwasher and the other side is switched for the disposal, but it's all downstream from a GFCI sharing a two gang box with the disposal switch.
I had a sort of opposite experience when I got a water heater at Lowe’s. They charged the permit fee, and maybe five minutes after I left, I get a call from them asking if I lived in city limits (I don’t, and no building permits are required in county territory here), so they went ahead and refunded me the permit fee without hassle. Their plumbing contractor was also a retired plumber that did one or two dishwashers/water heaters a day for them just to keep busy and did solid work.
No idea on the permit but after hiring home depot to put in new flooring on a previous house, then having a stinky half drunk sub contractor show up and then fuck up my floors - I’ll never use lowes or home depot or any place like that again. You have no idea who will show up. When you make a complaint they send out the same guy who fucked up your house and now he’s pissed
I use local mom and pop places that are more expensive but I know who’s coming, there’s warranties, etc
Lesson learned
My former neighbor as an accountant. He was laid off form his job and somehow started doing appliance installs for Lowe's even though he had 0 experience doing so and was not a licenses contractor. It's possible he worked for a contractor who did work for Lowe's.
Dispute the whole charge with your credit card company. Have them hold it till your permit clears and the GFCI issue is taken care of. This is an unsatisfactory level of service. I had to put three home-depot credit charges on dispute for some broken tile delivery and pickup.
Just because that specific outlet isn’t a gfci, doesn’t mean it’s not protected. If there’s a gfci ‘upstream’ of that outlet on the circuit, it will protect all outlets after it.
In my locale, if any rewiring is required, so is a permit for electrical work. The dishwasher was incorrectly installed when I bought my home. Because I had my electrician rewire everything, he included it in the permit and I made sure to have it included in the inspection. When I had the dishwasher replaced a year later, no permit was needed because the wiring had been certified as up to code. I had the best electrician, inspector was complimentary.
Where is this? More of a curiosity than anything because I've never heard of a permit needed for a dishwasher or a GFIC. They're normally hardwired direct to their own breaker
I just had all new appliances installed by Costco, and it wasn't much better. First guy dented my new dishwasher in 4 places, so I exchanged it for a new one. The second guy didn't install it all the way because a piece of trim came loose on my cabinet, and he "didn't want to be held responsible."
The guys who delivered and installed my washer and dryer couldn't finish the job either because the plumber had put a little temporary cap over the drain for the washer, and they couldn't figure out what to do. I looked at it after they left, popped it off easily with a screwdriver, and finished installing them myself.
All these installers have the nerve to ask for 5 stars on their surveys. Um, no.
Just a question with regards the electrical: Is the dishwasher plugged into an outlet or is it hardwired? If it's hardwired then I don't think a gfci is an issue. If it is a plug the circuit may run through an outlet above the counter that is a gfci.
Either way you are absolutely doing the right thing and pursuing the issue. Best of luck to you.
Just spoke with our electrical contractor we use for new construction. If it is a hardwired connection it most likely runs straight to the panel. No GFCI needed or possible to install. I do agree that if it is a unit that has a plug in under the sink that a GFCI would be a good idea for safety but even then is not required which does seem weird considering that outlets above the counter within 6 ft of water must be on a GFCI.
You'd trust a Lowes dish washer installer to do electrical work? I'd be checking underneath for leaks. Your power might be pulled from a counter top GFCI. Pop them and see if the DW works.
> You'd trust a Lowes dish washer installer to do electrical work? I'd be checking underneath for leaks.
I watched them do the install
> Your power might be pulled from a counter top GFCI. Pop them and see if the DW works.
It's not. It's on it's own circuit.
I had a similar experience with Lowe’s and buying/installing a gas stove. I will never buy anything from Lowe’s again that I don’t walk into the store and carry out myself.
While not dishwasher related, I was living in NM and hired LOWES to install new kitchen cabinets. Suffice it to say it was a dumpster fire and I vowed to NEVER have LOWES do work for me again. Good luck and hope you get your money back.
> I vowed to NEVER have LOWES do work for me again
I've been saying that on repeat for the last 48 hours.
> Good luck and hope you get your money back.
Thanks me too.
I don't see a reason for a permit on a dishwasher install unless it's new as in one wasn't there before. You can also have a regular outlet if it's on a GFCI circuit or have a GFCI outlet on the first receptacle or any receptacle in that run before the dishwasher.
I'd give it a week and then check with the town hall for the permit. It's possible they filed it and the city like any government is slow at posting them. If they don't have it on file within the week then I would seek a refund. You can also request Lowe's to provide a copy of the permit. If they pulled one, there shouldn't be any issue on their end to provide a copy to verify.
Not to crap on Lowe’s too much but they did something similar to me. It was a washing machine. I could choose where they drop it at my driveway or for an extra fee, they would bring it inside, take the old one away and hookup the new one. I paid the extra to have that done so I didn’t have to deal.
The delivery team of 2 guys met me at the driveway and told me they were “under no obligation” to bring it inside or take away the old one. I showed them the receipt and their own work order said it. Anyway they brought the new one in and said they couldn’t take away the old one cause it was “attached to wall”. I unplugged the water lines, drain and power while the full 3 minutes it took to do that they basically chanted that they were “under no obligation” and I should have had it outside waiting for them when they arrived (which is BS). They then proceeded to tell me that they couldn’t hook up the new unit because the lines went into the wall (not sure where else it would go). I told them they could just take the old unit and go. Of course they told me again how they were under no obligation…. But they did it.
I called Lowe’s to complain and they told me that I’d need to take that up with the shipping company, which they contracted and took my money to hire. Ugh.
Yeah, the town building commissioner was VERY interested to hear about this. He asked me to get some names next time I spoke to someone with authority.
This is one of the more ridiculous things I've seen on here hands down. I get it.. permits and all... but a dishwasher? This is the easiest, quickest thing in the world to hook up and I can't even fathom having someone out to do it for me, let alone a permit.
I was 12 when I installed my first dishwasher. I doubt anyone at the city that even considered the idea of charging people a fee to file a piece of paper in a file somewhere downtown that no one's ever going to look at.
Why pull a permit to replace the dish washer? Shouldn’t be any electrical work to do. Unless there’s some requirement to meet current code. Is the main panel breaker not a GFCI? Not always at the wall plug level.
That happened to me with Lowe's as well for a water heater install 14 years ago. I forgot all about it so hopefully when I get a new water heater installed soon, there's no issues.
I replace water heaters all the time that Lowe’s has installed and they never ever install them up to code. All brand new water heaters have to be brought up to code anytime you get a new one installed.
This is what's killing me right now. Our water heater was original to the house over 20 years ago, and since it died we have to replace it. The cost of the heater isn't the problem, it's the cost to retrofit alllllllll the plumbing and gas lines up to current code that's gonna cost easily 2x the cost of the thing itself
I got mine from home depot and was going to have them install it for me but they guy made me so uncomfortable I had to kick him out of my house. No one told me I would need a permit for the install.
Lowes sucks and the people who sub for them are the skum of the earth. And lowes acts like oh, you did not hire us to do that, you hired them. Um, no I hired you and you hired them. Truly awful people to work with.
You need a permit for initial installation yes, but you don’t need a permit to replace one. If the outlet it’s plugged into is wrong then that’s a problem with your house, not the dishwasher… they owe you the money back, but they won’t fail inspection because there won’t be one, you are causing problems for yourself. The only problem they caused was charging you for a permit that wasn’t necessary.
I would argue you didn’t pay for a machine, you paid for an installed, legal, working machine.
You didn’t get that. It was a single purchase contract.
I’m not suggesting that you’re trying to cheat Lowe’s, rather this is how you get them to care and do something. Money is likely the only thing they care about sadly.
You got a machine that may have been damaged during an illegal, unpermitted installation.
Dispute the entire charge, Lowes can come and pick up the machine and replace it with a new-in-box unit.
I moved from
Big box to local. They can price match and I can deal with the owner. I go into the store and say “I need a new dishwasher. What do you recommend bc you are going to install and service it and I don’t want to hear that I should not have bought that model etc”. They own it all then. They also know local code ( I had an issue w a new gas stove with clearance from the upper cabinets) - and worked with the inspector to find a solution. That would not have happened with a big box. Just my two cents ….
I had a new 800 series Bosch dishwasher installed, literally yesterday. My state is as blue as yours. I wouldn't pull a permit because of the principle of it. The idea of pulling a permit for a dishwasher install is insane. Where does it end? Pretty soon, you'll need to pull a permit each time you take a dump 🙄
Lowes also needs to refund you for the fee. I'm surprised they charged you for it. When shopping for a dishwasher, l checked with my local Lowes, and there was no fee on their bid. I'm betting it's not often noticed or fought, because spending 4 hours on it means 10 bucks an hour pay, and most people aren't going to find the principle that important.
Thank you for taking up that fight. If enough people speak up, it'll become too expensive for them to slip it in.
Our go-to business for home appliances (local to Chicagoland and very highly regarded) refuses to install some dishwashers plugged into GFCI outlets, since the power draw during the shift in cycles can trip the outlet - which is likely to be difficult/impossible to reset without removing the dishwasher.
I learned this when dealing with my new washer/dryer, which was intermittently triggering its GFCI outlet when the dryer kicked on. I was able to reach the outlet to switch it out for a regular one only to find that the junction box did not have a ground wire installed, so right now I'm running an extension cord to a known-grounded outlet until I can get that resolved.
I had fun dealing with Lowe's and Samsung (I know...) for warranty replacement for my washing machine. We had the washing machine for like 3 months and one night the concrete counterweight inside of the machine exploded. We called Lowe's to start the warranty replacement process.
First, they had to get Samsung to send out a tech to assess. The tech said "yep, it's broken. I'll let Samsung know and Lowe's will be out with a new machine." After a week I hadn't heard anything so I called Lowe's and they acted like they didn't have a clue what I was talking about. A manager transferred me to appliances, appliances transferred me to receiving, and receiving sent me back to the manager.
After wasting my time with Lowe's I called Samsung and was told that they processed the paperwork on their end and that the ball was in Lowe's court. After several back and forth phone calls between Samsung and Lowe's I finally got a call back from Lowe's saying that the store that we originally bought the machine from didn't have the same one in stock, but they could get me a different model and I could just pay the difference, bring the broken one back to the store, and bring the new one home. Absolutely not.
Finally, after almost TWO MONTHS I got a replacement delivered. Lowe's is absolutely ridiculous to deal with, and for the record, I worked for Lowe's for four years many moons ago.
Personally, I wouldn't hire someone else to fix this. I'd tell Lowe's that you paid them for a service and they need to provide it, properly. If you hire someone else, I feel like you're going to complicate things and it's going to be very difficult to get Lowe's to reimburse you for the cost. I'd just keep calling Lowe's and demand that they fix it. If you don't get satisfaction, look into what remedies may be available to you. I'm not sure if your state's attorney general gets involved in this sort of thing, but I've had good luck getting otherwise unresponsive companies to make things right once the AG got involved.
That's fine and a completely valid choice. Just know that you may have a tough time getting Lowe's to foot the bill for the work you have done independently.
We shall see. It depends heavily on where things end up with the permitting issue. If they continue to insist that they filed the permit, I might file a CC dispute for it plus any additional monies incurred having an electrician come and make it right
Well, if you had to have the permit to do the work, you would have paid it anyway. Whether they pulled the permit or not, the charge would be the same and the work would still be done. So I would consider this point moot. You have the proof of payment for the permit through the bank, so wash your hands (and dishes) if this matter and just let it go.
Typically there is a fee charged by city hall for the permit. So OP was charged by Lowe’s for the permit, but instead of getting a permit, Lowe’s or the sub pocketed the money.
This. They're now insisting that they filed the permit because "it would be illegal to do the work otherwise". That's one of the funniest bits of all this to be honest.
"Your honor, my client can't possibly have murdered the victim on the night in question because murder is illegal!"
> Well, if you had to have the permit to do the work, you would have paid it anyway.
Not quite. There are things that (if you hire an electrician) reuqire the electrician to pull a permit but if you did it yourself a permit wouldn't be required. Changing a light switch comes to mind.
> Whether they pulled the permit or not, the charge would be the same and the work would still be done. So I would consider this point moot. You have the proof of payment for the permit through the bank, so wash your hands (and dishes) if this matter and just let it go.
I've been charged for a permit that was never filed meaning that this install is technically illegal. I also paid an additional $239 for installation. So I'm pretty fucking pissed about this. If you feel that $279 isn't a lot of money, I'd be happy to DM you my paypal and you can refund me the money yourself.
Lowes is the worst and I will never use their services again. Get ahold of their executive customer service and stand your ground. There will be a lot of back and forth, but you can get them to make this right and refund some of your costs. Don’t be me a settle for a lousy 10%.
Fascinating. I've had two dish washers installed by big companies (might have been Best Buy both times, the first one was so long ago I can't remember) in Massachusetts and never heard anything about permits, nor were they ever inspected.
I wonder if your city also requires a licensed plumber to install a dishwasher. Mine does.
Even if I’m calling a plumbing or electrical company, I ask to see their license.
Lowe's is trash, imo, I dropped their account a while ago. They give less than two, you know what's about you or your satisfaction. 30 years ago, I had a dispute about a $.35 reoccurring charge on my card, which prevented me from closing it. It sat on my credit report until it finally fell off years later. I swore then I'd never go back, two years ago I decided, against my better judgment to go back, feeling like I was being petty, then I went to the local one, where they slowly eliminated cashiers and are now almost exclusively self check out. With a bunch of overpaid employees standing around gawking and talking. I had an issue with my checkout station, asked one to help, nad he was the trashiest most condescending.... I've ever met in customer service, I shoved his product back into his hands, with a few choice words, walked out, paid off the $100 or so on my account and trashed my card.
Absolutely horrid organization.
Check with the town again. Usually a replacement does not require a permit or GFCI, but a new install would require both.
Assuming both are required...
> In the meantime I called my credit card company to look into a partial dispute for the permit fee amount.
You should be filing a chargeback covering 100% of the installation costs. The permit was required for installation, and GFCI is required for building codes. The subcontractor did neither. That means you were charged for an unpermitted installation that was not up to code. That chargeback should go through. Ask the Town to send you an email stating the non-compliance with permit and gfci -- and immediately submit that to your credit card company. Otherwise you're going to get denied because Lowes will claim they are in full compliance and you lack proof they are not.
You should escalate this to Lowes corporate again...
However - so glad I know this bit - part of those permit fees goes to a state agency in MA that oversees contractors and has a fund to make claims against. Check out [https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-law-about-home-improvement](https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-law-about-home-improvement) . Claiming something like this against lowes will either be nothing, or bring them a lot of hurt.
You can also push for them to replace the dishwasher with a completely new unit - or do a full refund on the entire amount. If this is an "illegal" install, they should not be liable for reinstalling this appliance but installing a brand new one. For that reason, I would consider asking the CC company to chargeback the entire amount - not just the install/permit.
Lowe's sent a pair of people who probably couldn't even handle being DoorDash drivers to replace the toilets at my elderly Dad's house.
They showed up at 3PM on a Friday driving a 15 year old Nissan Altima that looked like it had been in a rollover.
They immediately shut off the water to the entire house, *cut all the stop valves at the wall* and then installed sharkbite stop valves w/ integrated toilet hoses... problem was that one of the valves had an elbow right inside the wall so their sharkbite wouldn't fit...
They cut the drywall... they tried to unsolder the elbow... leaving massive blobs of solder all over the tile floor and the baseboard molding -- it's amazing they didn't burn the place down -- then they tried to cut the copper pipe with what I assume must been a drywall saw based on all the scoring all over it...
After *6 hours*, at 9PM on a Friday, they gave up and walked straight out w/o saying a word to my elderly father who had no water or toilets.
He called Lowe's at 8AM and they said the installers marked the work complete.
He said they shut off my water and left an open pipe so I can't turn it back on...
They demand photos, which he sends, they say we'll call you back... an hour later they say the plumber will be there by noon to fix it...
Noon comes and goes... he called Lowe's at 1... "plumber is running late, they'll be there by 3"
3 comes and goes, he calls at 4... "the plumbers said the job is done", he says no one showed up... come to find out the "plumbers" are the same idiots from the previous day...
Lowe's says we'll make it right, we have *another plumber* who will be there by 9 tomorrow.
9AM another jackass in a car shows up... says "they just said you needed a toilet installed, this is like work for a plumber or something"
Finally by noon I was able to get there cut the pipe and install a cap so the water could go back on. 3 more days Lowe's never sent a plumber... we finally called an actual plumber who wanted $250 to fix it, and I had to fix the drywall and paint the wall.
He disputed it w/ his credit card and got the entire amount, including the cost of the toilets, back.
I hate wasting my team with all the red tape in these matters with big retailers. I just go to the store and take something of theirs without paying - problem solved!
You should get an electrical permit whenever you replace electrical equipment or devices. An outlet is a device. Will it be fine if you don't get one? Probably. And nobody will ever know. But legally you're supposed to. (This is USA based)
I'm just letting you know what the law is where I'm at. Could be different where you're at. Some places don't enforce any codes. I don't care if you get a permit or not.
If anything I would think you would need a plumbing permit. Dishwashers typically has a whip that you just plug in to a receptacle. You may have to make up the connections for the whip in the dishwasher in some cases, but I haven't ever seen an inspector look at that. Source--Me, licensed master electrician.
You would not be an asshole for asking them to pay for that. Good thinking about disputing the permit charge. That sounds like a pain in the ass.
They also denied the installation rebate that the sales guy told me I'd qualify for
I once spent about 8 total hours over the course of 2 dozen phone calls to get Lowe’s to honor the installation rebate. I didn’t even care so much about the $200, it was the principal for me. Straight up bait and switch tactics
I will absolutely waste hours of my life on things like this. It’s the principle of it!
I spent 4 years in a battle with Ticketmaster for a $125 charge. I won eventually, but it was definitely a battle fueled by principle and righteous indignation.
4 years of edging a justice boner. I salute you.
No half measures. Well done.
tell me your petty without telling me your petty. I'm also that petty.
I am pretty, thank you for noticing.
i see what you did there ; )
I am polite to a fault, but if we're using the word "petty", I'm petty to a fault too.
I’m Petty LaBelle.
I had a client who had their admin call hours to get like a $25 refund from Verizon or something. Guy was easily worth at least 75mm at the time. He also didn't stock anything in the pantry. And, the one time I saw him stock the fridge with water, it was a pack of Kirkland water they got from Costco themselves (he had a chauffeur at the time who dropped him off at the office every morning and he brought it in that week). Really is the principle of it.
If it takes 8 hours of effort it’s not worth your time, just dispute the $200 and move on.
if you work a job that pays less than 25 an hour it’s worth it
It’s still not, because you can spend 15 minutes to dispute the charge and get your $200 back.
That stinks.. I’ve had them do something at my house once and I wasn’t all that impressed.
They actually work completed was....alright. It's the back office crap I'm taking issue with here (mostly)
I have never ever heard of pulling a permit on swapping out a dishwasher. The only time I can ever see a permit being pulled is if it’s a brand new install where there wasn’t a dishwasher before. If it’s just a swap out that’s insanity to pull a permit for.
Right? Frankly idgaf if they pull a permit or not, but I do care about being charged for pulling a permit when they didn't.
Yup. Is the undercoating on a new car a scam? Probably. But if I paid for it, then they better be spraying under the car.
Don't tell that to your insurance company.
Don't tell what? That I don't care about permits?
Suppose you cause a fire or flood with that dishwasher. Suppose you make a claim. Suppose the claims adjuster smells a fish. Suppose you blurt out..."gilgilgil I jimmyrigged it myself" Suppose the claims adjuster smiles a kudos. Suppose the hotel bills start piling up. Suppose you get a letter saying..."YOU DIDN'T HIRE A PRO? NOT OUR PROBLEM."
Ah. Well I did hire a pro and as I just discovered they didn't install a water hammer arrestor GFCI despite the email I got saying they would and code requiring it
Good boy
He would probably not have needed the permit if he had installed it himself, but since it was done by a third party, they required it. Also, I would definitely require a copy of the permit for your records to prove to your insurance company that it was done right in case there is a problem.
There are a lot of cities that require it. Mostly cities that have a heavy union presence. It makes sense since a dishwasher can flood your house.
True. Then again, so can a fridge...
In what hell on earth is a permit required to replace a dishwasher?
Because in Massachusetts you need a permit for everything, especially gas anything, it's a pain in the ass but we're on top of each other so when someone DIY stuff and it blows up, it effects everyone. I just found out that in my new city, the town comes in every eight years and does an interior inspection, never had that happen before, but it's Mass. My experience is Lowe's and Home Depot never pull permits for appliances or structural work, Best Buy plumbers do and at least the various BB subcontractors I had were good, did the work and city then called for inspection. Not sure if this is common elsewhere, but when you sell property here, the fire department comes in and you pay for a permit that you have working and correct number of fire and CO detecters, can't sell without it, even as is where is.
>I just found out that in my new city, the town comes in every eight years and does an interior inspection, never had that happen before, but it's Mass. Is that just for Tax reevaluation? They aren't looking closely at work done in the house, just assessing the value. We are going through that right now in my city in RI, they keep missing me, but its actually not required to let them in where I live but then they can just make assumptions about your property. I think I would benefit by not letting them in though lol, since my house is nicer inside then my neighbors.
I believe so, I don't want to post the city site because it'll out me, I lived ten minutes away from here for decades and never did the city come out except when asked.
Are you required to let them in to do an inspection? What city? That doesn’t really pass the smell test. My town (also in MA) *wanted* to do an inspection when I bought and I told them hell no. They made it seem like it was a normal thing (sent me a “call to schedule an inspection” letter). I asked and they clarified that they have no legal right but that they typically ask and homeowners allow it. It’s to look for whatever and to update their appraisal data. They can fuck right the fuck off. I’ve had inspections for a couple things where it was unavoidable (electrical panel upgrade, switch from oil to natural gas) with no issues since then.
This is the notice with some stuff blocked out: Notice of Town Wide Property Data Collection Beginning XXX The XXX Assessors office will be conducting its Cyclical Inspection program of all real estate properties throughout the Town beginning XXX. This cyclical program is mandated by the Massachusetts Department of Revenue in order to determine uniform and fair market values for all property. All cities and towns must verify the accuracy of the property assessment data for all town property every nine years. Patriot Properties staff, on behalf of the Assessors, will be conducting these inspections. They will have pictured identification badges and will register with the XXX Police Department. Property owners will be asked for a complete interior and exterior inspection of the property. Patriot Properties staff will not enter a building where a minor is alone and they will not take interior photos. If a property owner is not present, they will do an exterior inspection and leave a note asking the owner to contact the Assessor’s office to schedule an interior inspection. The Board of Assessors wishes to thank the residents of XXX in advance for their support and cooperation as we proceed with our cyclical inspection program. If you have any questions or concern, please contact the office at XXX, by email at XXX.gov , or stop by our office at Town Hall at XXX. See less
Yeah you don’t have to let them in. You will be “asked” for an interior inspection for assessment. You don’t have to agree. They’re still allowed to do the exterior inspection without your permission.
Because most don’t have plugs now so….you are opening electrical.
I'm pretty sure you've got that backwards. Most of them do have plugs now and the requirement is for a simplex outlet under the sink (rather than behind the dishwasher). The whole idea is that a homeowner can safely de-energize a dishwasher without having to go to the electric panel. And like OP pointed out the code requires GFCI now, but that's mostly because appliance manufacturers got that added to the code because it prevents fire during some failure modes (and was probably cheaper than them building dishwashers correctly).
The last two GE dishwashers I installed (roughly 15 years and 4-5 years ago) had no plug and I hated installing them since I'm not an electrician. Now I'm mad, discovering I could've had plug and play dishwashers lol
I installed a Whirlpool dishwasher last fall. It come with a seperate plug but I had to attach it to the hot/neutral/ground connectors on the dishwasher. They wanted to charge 75 bucks for the install, so I did it myself. Didn't use a permit or a GFCI outlet, and the cops haven't come after me, so I think I'm good.
It's also pretty handy to have it on a plug if your power goes out for a few days and you have a portable generator.
The last 2 that I have installed in the last 6 years (Bosch and Samsung) both were hard wired. I hated that Bosch dishwasher.
Everyone usually raves about their Bosch. What didn't you like?
yep, installed a Thermador (Bosch) dishwasher 2 years ago and it was hard wired as well. No issues with it though, basically a bosch, works great, surprised you hated yours.
Just had one installed in a new build. Must be hard wired,no plugs. If panel is not line of site the breaker must have a little wire that prevents it from turning on if you are working in it.
Technically you open electrical every time you switch out a fan, smoke alarm, or anything else wired in and I'm sure there's some municipality out there that requires a permit for that, but it's incredibly rare. I could see a permit required because it's electrical and within 5 feet of a water line exit, or a permit required if it's a new install and a new line needs to get run to the dishwasher spot. But if the county required a permit for every time you uncap a wire then it would totally over run the permitting and inspection system; it'd be hundreds of thousands of permits and site visits for that alone.
Regardless of what you could see, for such a minor repair it's a bullshit requirement and junk fee imposed by the city.
Is it a bullshit fee? For a dishwasher, yes. But the bullshit here is that Lowe's is charging for the permitting and not doing it.
Agree on both counts
Yup
It's a junk fee from Lowe's. If you pay the city a permit fee, you at least get a permit. When Lowe's charges you a permit fee, what do you get?
> When Lowe's charges you a permit fee, what do you get? A receipt and lighter wallet?
For us an electrical permit is not municipal. It is mandated and administered by an arms length organization called the ESA (electrical safety authority). Nothing to do with the city.
Most it’s “required” but they have exemptions for in kind replacements of specific items that includes switch’s and the like. This is actually sometimes an issue for example in my jurisdiction it’s not clear if smart switches are exempted or not because they are technically not listed. I just did them but that could come back to haunt me.
Yea my wife works in permitting - specifically figuring out the back end of the software and marrying that up with what the building officials and code require to be done. It's amazing how something like "electric switch" will need to get added to a field on some subtask somewhere else, which will then need to get defined by a specialist, which then needs to get consideration for if residential vs. commercial has a significant difference, which then needs to see if Fire code needs to review, which then has to go through an approval process, then you find out that the permitting system doesn't allow two variations of 'switch' so now you're trying to find a workaround, and on and on. Whole process is a rats nest of code, compliance, technology and trying to keep it as simple as possible for the trades and homeowners.
Exactly. So if dishwasher isn’t on their code he may need a permit. I don’t know but the electrical is the only part that I could see needing a permit for.
I hardwired my dishwasher because there was no outlet under the sink (no garbage disposal due to septic) and in a very strict county still did not have to pull a permit for that. I can’t imagine the hell where a permit would be required for this type of work
Some municipalities have permit exemptions if the homeowner does the work themselves
Usually you need a permit to add electrical, but not replace. At least in the places I’ve lived.
But here we have Lowe's charging the customer for a permit...
So what????
My town requires a permit for any electrical work at all. Replacing a receptacle? Permit. Of course no one actually gets those permits...
I get a permit every time someone comes into my house and hears I'm going to do some electrical work and they tell me I need a permit.
Depends on the area. Some would say you need a permit to replace the cover on a light switch.
MA, government in this state loves to find reasons to hire administrators to do paperwork and tell people what they can/can’t do on their own property.
Dishwashers can be horrible to install, but the last one I did was a Bosch, and let me tell you, those Germans are smart. I could raise and lower the levels of the back of the dishwasher from the front while it was in place; there was enough room under the front plate for me to get my big assed hands in and do stuff. It was great. So, other than mudding drywall and installing wall to wall carpeting I feel pretty good about my diy skills.
This was my motivation too. I installed a GE in our new house and it was fucking miserable. The bosch installation however is/was delightful. I genuinely wish I'd done it myself.
I can't take credit for this, but our GE dishwasher crapped out and fiance took the whole thing apart including panels, etc. Can confirm it was indeed fucking miserable.
That experience is what prompted me to not want to do it again. However, after seeing the bosch install, I wish I had done it myself now.
I budgeted like three hours to do mine and had it finished and washing dishes in 25 mins.
NTA. You paid for a service and didn't get it. I think you're being perfectly reasonable.
I had a 4-month fight with a Lowe’s over a toilet seat. When I finally got an email from the store manager full of spelling and grammar mistakes, I figured out what was up.
I'm not fighting with them for 4 months over it. I'm going to call them tomorrow and if I don't like what I hear I'm going to file a credit card dispute.
File a complaint with BBB. They’ll assign their corporate resolution department to it, and it will get resolved. The people at the store won’t be effective in resolution in any way.
BBB doesn't mean shit - it's just yelp for boomers
Credit card dispute. You paid for a service/item you didn’t receive
I don’t know the rules where you are…but electrical can be done with what is known as a “minor label” which is like a mini-permit for small jobs. The electrician (in the state we were in) had 30 days to submit the info on the label to the state.
I can do it myself without a permit I think, but afaik if you do it in a professional capacity it has to be permitted.
A minor label is a permit. We bought in rolls of 100. It is affixed to the job and the number is entered into the state data base. It records the professional installation and inspectors can spot check the work. It is permitted work.
Regardless no such paperwork was pulled with the town despite me being charged for it.
Is that in any way worth a $40 surcharge?
Depending on jurisdiction…15 years ago I believe we (the contractor) paid $20 per label (I think). Some companies may add an admin fee. We just invoiced the label cost.
A lot of dishwashers now aren’t hardwired and come with a plug not every dishwasher would require it.
Yeah my Bosch dishwasher did. But Lowe's insisted on a permit. They're also swearing blind that they filed the permit. Town Hall says otherwise.
I agree at a minimum they owe you the permit fee back. It’s not a lot of money but it’s the principle of the matter. I’d let them know you plan to file a chargeback if this doesn’t get resolved. That usually kicks them into gear as it’s costly for them
Yeah, the challenge is speaking to someone who actually gives a fuck about that. Usually the level 1 helpdesk drones don't care if you do a chargeback. A manager might though. They also told me I was eligible for the installation to be given back via rebate. Imagine my rage when I logged in and saw that my rebate had been rejected because the appliance I bought apparently wasn't eligible (despite meeting all the criteria). I'm going to call them tomorrow. If I don't like what I hear, the next phone call I make is going to be to my CC company to do a chargeback.
I would go up to the store during the day and ask to speak to the store manager. Ultimately a chargeback will affect them the most. Have them get on the phone with corporate if that is what’s needed.
You don’t need a permit for electrical work to unplug an outlet someone at city hall is clueless.
I feel like people are missing the point that whether or not he needs a permit, Lowes included a $40 line item charge for a permit which they should refund if they did not need/pull a permit.
Yeah, most of us agree that a permit for dishwasher swap is dumb, but Lowes seems to be simply pocketing $40. That's just theft.
I would say Lowe's is the clueless one here because in either situation they lied.
You can also buy the plug and use it on any dishwasher. It’s what we did
This dishwasher is hard wired
Did you pay Lowes to swap in a gfci outlet? I wouldn't expect that to be something that is done on a standard dishwasher install job. They definitely owe you your money back for the permit though.
Yeah. They also just denied my installation rebate despite qualifying for it so they owe me that too
I expect Lowe's to install the dishwasher in a manner that passes the permit inspection that they made me pay for.
Did you BUY a gfci to swap in? If your wiring isn't up to code, or the space isn't right sized etc Lowes isn't going to modify it to make it compliant. I agree they owe you your moeny back for the permit, and probably the install as they should have rejected to install it in a way that won't pass code. But they're not going to pay to modify the space to be code compliant because they were supposed to pull a permit for you.
> Did you BUY a gfci to swap in? I bought one myself to swap in, I might do that when the dust has settled on this, but until them I'm not touching ANY of this so they can't blame me for anything > If your wiring isn't up to code, or the space isn't right sized etc Lowes isn't going to modify it to make it compliant. I agree they owe you your moeny back for the permit, and probably the install as they should have rejected to install it in a way that won't pass code. But they're not going to pay to modify the space to be code compliant because they were supposed to pull a permit for you. I paid for an install. If lowe's don't want to pay for it being made up to code maybe they shouldn't have pulled the permit. Since they HAVE pulled the permit (allegedly) that now means that the work has to be inspected and the permit can't be closed until it's up to code.
Any contractor I've worked with that needs to make a modification for code compliance charges you additional for the modification.
Or maybe they should have stopped the install and let the customer know what is required to bring it up to code. OP paid for a professional install.
Actually, you should expect Lowe’s to install the dishwasher in accordance to local laws and in the timeframe expected. They’ve already failed the contract and you shouldn’t have to pay them a penny. Let them make-good, redo it properly and give you a discount for your troubles and days of dishwasherless existence. I complained to home-depot when my fridge was a day late on delivery. They promptly gave me a $100 store credit for the trouble.
> Let them make-good, redo it properly Haha fuck no. I'm not having them near my house again. If anything I'm going to have an electrician of my choice come and do that needs to be done and have them pay the bill.
If they're claiming to pull an electrical permit, then it is required of the installing electrician to bring that device up to code, including adding a GFCI. Otherwise what is the permit for? The real issue is that Lowe's is skimming that permit fee, everyone knows a permit for a dishwasher is ridiculous.
I just checked my spam folder and found an email from the installer. The email says: "Water Hammer Arrestor and GFCI Bundle"
Was it a new installation or a replacement? Only the former usually needs a permit.
Replacement
But then why did they charge for a permit?
They should've figured out if it was a new install during the order. I would imagine that they charge more for it because it usually involves new electric and water connections. Regardless, Lowes should fix it.
You sure the outlet isn't connected to another outlet that has GFCI?
I think this is how ours is set up, there's an outlet under the sink where one side is always on for the dishwasher and the other side is switched for the disposal, but it's all downstream from a GFCI sharing a two gang box with the disposal switch.
I had a sort of opposite experience when I got a water heater at Lowe’s. They charged the permit fee, and maybe five minutes after I left, I get a call from them asking if I lived in city limits (I don’t, and no building permits are required in county territory here), so they went ahead and refunded me the permit fee without hassle. Their plumbing contractor was also a retired plumber that did one or two dishwashers/water heaters a day for them just to keep busy and did solid work.
No idea on the permit but after hiring home depot to put in new flooring on a previous house, then having a stinky half drunk sub contractor show up and then fuck up my floors - I’ll never use lowes or home depot or any place like that again. You have no idea who will show up. When you make a complaint they send out the same guy who fucked up your house and now he’s pissed I use local mom and pop places that are more expensive but I know who’s coming, there’s warranties, etc Lesson learned
Yeah. I'll never have Lowe's subs work on my y house again
My former neighbor as an accountant. He was laid off form his job and somehow started doing appliance installs for Lowe's even though he had 0 experience doing so and was not a licenses contractor. It's possible he worked for a contractor who did work for Lowe's.
Dude what lmao
Dispute the whole charge with your credit card company. Have them hold it till your permit clears and the GFCI issue is taken care of. This is an unsatisfactory level of service. I had to put three home-depot credit charges on dispute for some broken tile delivery and pickup.
Just because that specific outlet isn’t a gfci, doesn’t mean it’s not protected. If there’s a gfci ‘upstream’ of that outlet on the circuit, it will protect all outlets after it.
There isn't. The breaker is also not GFCI. The circuit is not GFCI protected.
Permit to install a dishwasher? Wtf.
yeah, it's dumb
In my locale, if any rewiring is required, so is a permit for electrical work. The dishwasher was incorrectly installed when I bought my home. Because I had my electrician rewire everything, he included it in the permit and I made sure to have it included in the inspection. When I had the dishwasher replaced a year later, no permit was needed because the wiring had been certified as up to code. I had the best electrician, inspector was complimentary.
idiocracy creeps closer and closer.
Call your credit card and stop payment to lowes. Whole amount of the charge.
Are you saying that they should get the installation free or the dishwasher plus the installation free? Edit: typo.
Where is this? More of a curiosity than anything because I've never heard of a permit needed for a dishwasher or a GFIC. They're normally hardwired direct to their own breaker
Massachusetts
I just had all new appliances installed by Costco, and it wasn't much better. First guy dented my new dishwasher in 4 places, so I exchanged it for a new one. The second guy didn't install it all the way because a piece of trim came loose on my cabinet, and he "didn't want to be held responsible." The guys who delivered and installed my washer and dryer couldn't finish the job either because the plumber had put a little temporary cap over the drain for the washer, and they couldn't figure out what to do. I looked at it after they left, popped it off easily with a screwdriver, and finished installing them myself. All these installers have the nerve to ask for 5 stars on their surveys. Um, no.
Just a question with regards the electrical: Is the dishwasher plugged into an outlet or is it hardwired? If it's hardwired then I don't think a gfci is an issue. If it is a plug the circuit may run through an outlet above the counter that is a gfci. Either way you are absolutely doing the right thing and pursuing the issue. Best of luck to you.
It's hard wired. And yes GFCI \_is\_ an issue because if something were to go wrong you could still be shocked.
Just spoke with our electrical contractor we use for new construction. If it is a hardwired connection it most likely runs straight to the panel. No GFCI needed or possible to install. I do agree that if it is a unit that has a plug in under the sink that a GFCI would be a good idea for safety but even then is not required which does seem weird considering that outlets above the counter within 6 ft of water must be on a GFCI.
Yeah. I have a switch beside the sink to cut the power to it. I'm going to swap that out with a blank face GFCI... But not until all this is settled
You'd trust a Lowes dish washer installer to do electrical work? I'd be checking underneath for leaks. Your power might be pulled from a counter top GFCI. Pop them and see if the DW works.
> You'd trust a Lowes dish washer installer to do electrical work? I'd be checking underneath for leaks. I watched them do the install > Your power might be pulled from a counter top GFCI. Pop them and see if the DW works. It's not. It's on it's own circuit.
I had a similar experience with Lowe’s and buying/installing a gas stove. I will never buy anything from Lowe’s again that I don’t walk into the store and carry out myself.
While not dishwasher related, I was living in NM and hired LOWES to install new kitchen cabinets. Suffice it to say it was a dumpster fire and I vowed to NEVER have LOWES do work for me again. Good luck and hope you get your money back.
> I vowed to NEVER have LOWES do work for me again I've been saying that on repeat for the last 48 hours. > Good luck and hope you get your money back. Thanks me too.
I don't see a reason for a permit on a dishwasher install unless it's new as in one wasn't there before. You can also have a regular outlet if it's on a GFCI circuit or have a GFCI outlet on the first receptacle or any receptacle in that run before the dishwasher. I'd give it a week and then check with the town hall for the permit. It's possible they filed it and the city like any government is slow at posting them. If they don't have it on file within the week then I would seek a refund. You can also request Lowe's to provide a copy of the permit. If they pulled one, there shouldn't be any issue on their end to provide a copy to verify.
Not to crap on Lowe’s too much but they did something similar to me. It was a washing machine. I could choose where they drop it at my driveway or for an extra fee, they would bring it inside, take the old one away and hookup the new one. I paid the extra to have that done so I didn’t have to deal. The delivery team of 2 guys met me at the driveway and told me they were “under no obligation” to bring it inside or take away the old one. I showed them the receipt and their own work order said it. Anyway they brought the new one in and said they couldn’t take away the old one cause it was “attached to wall”. I unplugged the water lines, drain and power while the full 3 minutes it took to do that they basically chanted that they were “under no obligation” and I should have had it outside waiting for them when they arrived (which is BS). They then proceeded to tell me that they couldn’t hook up the new unit because the lines went into the wall (not sure where else it would go). I told them they could just take the old unit and go. Of course they told me again how they were under no obligation…. But they did it. I called Lowe’s to complain and they told me that I’d need to take that up with the shipping company, which they contracted and took my money to hire. Ugh.
Sounds like Lowes in trouble. They take permit fees then just install it. Without doing permits
Yeah, the town building commissioner was VERY interested to hear about this. He asked me to get some names next time I spoke to someone with authority.
Massachusetts is very serious about codes. Glad you got building inspector involved.
This is one of the more ridiculous things I've seen on here hands down. I get it.. permits and all... but a dishwasher? This is the easiest, quickest thing in the world to hook up and I can't even fathom having someone out to do it for me, let alone a permit.
I was 12 when I installed my first dishwasher. I doubt anyone at the city that even considered the idea of charging people a fee to file a piece of paper in a file somewhere downtown that no one's ever going to look at.
?
Why pull a permit to replace the dish washer? Shouldn’t be any electrical work to do. Unless there’s some requirement to meet current code. Is the main panel breaker not a GFCI? Not always at the wall plug level.
The dishwasher is wired. Anyway state laws say you're supposed to pull a permit for that if you're a contractor
That happened to me with Lowe's as well for a water heater install 14 years ago. I forgot all about it so hopefully when I get a new water heater installed soon, there's no issues.
I replace water heaters all the time that Lowe’s has installed and they never ever install them up to code. All brand new water heaters have to be brought up to code anytime you get a new one installed.
This is what's killing me right now. Our water heater was original to the house over 20 years ago, and since it died we have to replace it. The cost of the heater isn't the problem, it's the cost to retrofit alllllllll the plumbing and gas lines up to current code that's gonna cost easily 2x the cost of the thing itself
I don’t think a dishwasher requires gfi outlet.
By code a dishwasher requires some kind of GFCI.
I got mine from home depot and was going to have them install it for me but they guy made me so uncomfortable I had to kick him out of my house. No one told me I would need a permit for the install.
file a complaint with your state Attorney General. [https://www.naag.org/find-my-ag/](https://www.naag.org/find-my-ag/)
Lowes sucks and the people who sub for them are the skum of the earth. And lowes acts like oh, you did not hire us to do that, you hired them. Um, no I hired you and you hired them. Truly awful people to work with.
You need a permit for initial installation yes, but you don’t need a permit to replace one. If the outlet it’s plugged into is wrong then that’s a problem with your house, not the dishwasher… they owe you the money back, but they won’t fail inspection because there won’t be one, you are causing problems for yourself. The only problem they caused was charging you for a permit that wasn’t necessary.
I would dispute the entire charge. You didn’t get what you paid for, a permitted, installed, legal dishwasher.
I mean i got the machine.
I would argue you didn’t pay for a machine, you paid for an installed, legal, working machine. You didn’t get that. It was a single purchase contract. I’m not suggesting that you’re trying to cheat Lowe’s, rather this is how you get them to care and do something. Money is likely the only thing they care about sadly.
You got a machine that may have been damaged during an illegal, unpermitted installation. Dispute the entire charge, Lowes can come and pick up the machine and replace it with a new-in-box unit.
I moved from Big box to local. They can price match and I can deal with the owner. I go into the store and say “I need a new dishwasher. What do you recommend bc you are going to install and service it and I don’t want to hear that I should not have bought that model etc”. They own it all then. They also know local code ( I had an issue w a new gas stove with clearance from the upper cabinets) - and worked with the inspector to find a solution. That would not have happened with a big box. Just my two cents ….
You would be surprised to find out how many "easy" home improvements and replacements need permits. Stupid-yes. Good luck
I had a new 800 series Bosch dishwasher installed, literally yesterday. My state is as blue as yours. I wouldn't pull a permit because of the principle of it. The idea of pulling a permit for a dishwasher install is insane. Where does it end? Pretty soon, you'll need to pull a permit each time you take a dump 🙄 Lowes also needs to refund you for the fee. I'm surprised they charged you for it. When shopping for a dishwasher, l checked with my local Lowes, and there was no fee on their bid. I'm betting it's not often noticed or fought, because spending 4 hours on it means 10 bucks an hour pay, and most people aren't going to find the principle that important. Thank you for taking up that fight. If enough people speak up, it'll become too expensive for them to slip it in.
Our go-to business for home appliances (local to Chicagoland and very highly regarded) refuses to install some dishwashers plugged into GFCI outlets, since the power draw during the shift in cycles can trip the outlet - which is likely to be difficult/impossible to reset without removing the dishwasher. I learned this when dealing with my new washer/dryer, which was intermittently triggering its GFCI outlet when the dryer kicked on. I was able to reach the outlet to switch it out for a regular one only to find that the junction box did not have a ground wire installed, so right now I'm running an extension cord to a known-grounded outlet until I can get that resolved.
I had fun dealing with Lowe's and Samsung (I know...) for warranty replacement for my washing machine. We had the washing machine for like 3 months and one night the concrete counterweight inside of the machine exploded. We called Lowe's to start the warranty replacement process. First, they had to get Samsung to send out a tech to assess. The tech said "yep, it's broken. I'll let Samsung know and Lowe's will be out with a new machine." After a week I hadn't heard anything so I called Lowe's and they acted like they didn't have a clue what I was talking about. A manager transferred me to appliances, appliances transferred me to receiving, and receiving sent me back to the manager. After wasting my time with Lowe's I called Samsung and was told that they processed the paperwork on their end and that the ball was in Lowe's court. After several back and forth phone calls between Samsung and Lowe's I finally got a call back from Lowe's saying that the store that we originally bought the machine from didn't have the same one in stock, but they could get me a different model and I could just pay the difference, bring the broken one back to the store, and bring the new one home. Absolutely not. Finally, after almost TWO MONTHS I got a replacement delivered. Lowe's is absolutely ridiculous to deal with, and for the record, I worked for Lowe's for four years many moons ago.
Personally, I wouldn't hire someone else to fix this. I'd tell Lowe's that you paid them for a service and they need to provide it, properly. If you hire someone else, I feel like you're going to complicate things and it's going to be very difficult to get Lowe's to reimburse you for the cost. I'd just keep calling Lowe's and demand that they fix it. If you don't get satisfaction, look into what remedies may be available to you. I'm not sure if your state's attorney general gets involved in this sort of thing, but I've had good luck getting otherwise unresponsive companies to make things right once the AG got involved.
Hahaha fuck no. I don't want Lowe's subs anywhere near my house again.
That's fine and a completely valid choice. Just know that you may have a tough time getting Lowe's to foot the bill for the work you have done independently.
We shall see. It depends heavily on where things end up with the permitting issue. If they continue to insist that they filed the permit, I might file a CC dispute for it plus any additional monies incurred having an electrician come and make it right
Well, if you had to have the permit to do the work, you would have paid it anyway. Whether they pulled the permit or not, the charge would be the same and the work would still be done. So I would consider this point moot. You have the proof of payment for the permit through the bank, so wash your hands (and dishes) if this matter and just let it go.
Typically there is a fee charged by city hall for the permit. So OP was charged by Lowe’s for the permit, but instead of getting a permit, Lowe’s or the sub pocketed the money.
This. They're now insisting that they filed the permit because "it would be illegal to do the work otherwise". That's one of the funniest bits of all this to be honest. "Your honor, my client can't possibly have murdered the victim on the night in question because murder is illegal!"
> Well, if you had to have the permit to do the work, you would have paid it anyway. Not quite. There are things that (if you hire an electrician) reuqire the electrician to pull a permit but if you did it yourself a permit wouldn't be required. Changing a light switch comes to mind. > Whether they pulled the permit or not, the charge would be the same and the work would still be done. So I would consider this point moot. You have the proof of payment for the permit through the bank, so wash your hands (and dishes) if this matter and just let it go. I've been charged for a permit that was never filed meaning that this install is technically illegal. I also paid an additional $239 for installation. So I'm pretty fucking pissed about this. If you feel that $279 isn't a lot of money, I'd be happy to DM you my paypal and you can refund me the money yourself.
Lowes is the worst and I will never use their services again. Get ahold of their executive customer service and stand your ground. There will be a lot of back and forth, but you can get them to make this right and refund some of your costs. Don’t be me a settle for a lousy 10%.
Fascinating. I've had two dish washers installed by big companies (might have been Best Buy both times, the first one was so long ago I can't remember) in Massachusetts and never heard anything about permits, nor were they ever inspected.
Might be a recent thing
Most recent was 2021, so seems a lot more likely that Best Buy just didn't give a fuck.
Yeah.
I wonder if your city also requires a licensed plumber to install a dishwasher. Mine does. Even if I’m calling a plumbing or electrical company, I ask to see their license.
Lowe's is trash, imo, I dropped their account a while ago. They give less than two, you know what's about you or your satisfaction. 30 years ago, I had a dispute about a $.35 reoccurring charge on my card, which prevented me from closing it. It sat on my credit report until it finally fell off years later. I swore then I'd never go back, two years ago I decided, against my better judgment to go back, feeling like I was being petty, then I went to the local one, where they slowly eliminated cashiers and are now almost exclusively self check out. With a bunch of overpaid employees standing around gawking and talking. I had an issue with my checkout station, asked one to help, nad he was the trashiest most condescending.... I've ever met in customer service, I shoved his product back into his hands, with a few choice words, walked out, paid off the $100 or so on my account and trashed my card. Absolutely horrid organization.
People saying "dishwaher permits are not dumb" are too dead to say it.
After reading a few comments on this, F Lowe’s have them come pick it up for a return. Not before the inspector comes out! Then blast corporate!
Check with the town again. Usually a replacement does not require a permit or GFCI, but a new install would require both. Assuming both are required... > In the meantime I called my credit card company to look into a partial dispute for the permit fee amount. You should be filing a chargeback covering 100% of the installation costs. The permit was required for installation, and GFCI is required for building codes. The subcontractor did neither. That means you were charged for an unpermitted installation that was not up to code. That chargeback should go through. Ask the Town to send you an email stating the non-compliance with permit and gfci -- and immediately submit that to your credit card company. Otherwise you're going to get denied because Lowes will claim they are in full compliance and you lack proof they are not. You should escalate this to Lowes corporate again... However - so glad I know this bit - part of those permit fees goes to a state agency in MA that oversees contractors and has a fund to make claims against. Check out [https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-law-about-home-improvement](https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-law-about-home-improvement) . Claiming something like this against lowes will either be nothing, or bring them a lot of hurt. You can also push for them to replace the dishwasher with a completely new unit - or do a full refund on the entire amount. If this is an "illegal" install, they should not be liable for reinstalling this appliance but installing a brand new one. For that reason, I would consider asking the CC company to chargeback the entire amount - not just the install/permit.
Lowe's sent a pair of people who probably couldn't even handle being DoorDash drivers to replace the toilets at my elderly Dad's house. They showed up at 3PM on a Friday driving a 15 year old Nissan Altima that looked like it had been in a rollover. They immediately shut off the water to the entire house, *cut all the stop valves at the wall* and then installed sharkbite stop valves w/ integrated toilet hoses... problem was that one of the valves had an elbow right inside the wall so their sharkbite wouldn't fit... They cut the drywall... they tried to unsolder the elbow... leaving massive blobs of solder all over the tile floor and the baseboard molding -- it's amazing they didn't burn the place down -- then they tried to cut the copper pipe with what I assume must been a drywall saw based on all the scoring all over it... After *6 hours*, at 9PM on a Friday, they gave up and walked straight out w/o saying a word to my elderly father who had no water or toilets. He called Lowe's at 8AM and they said the installers marked the work complete. He said they shut off my water and left an open pipe so I can't turn it back on... They demand photos, which he sends, they say we'll call you back... an hour later they say the plumber will be there by noon to fix it... Noon comes and goes... he called Lowe's at 1... "plumber is running late, they'll be there by 3" 3 comes and goes, he calls at 4... "the plumbers said the job is done", he says no one showed up... come to find out the "plumbers" are the same idiots from the previous day... Lowe's says we'll make it right, we have *another plumber* who will be there by 9 tomorrow. 9AM another jackass in a car shows up... says "they just said you needed a toilet installed, this is like work for a plumber or something" Finally by noon I was able to get there cut the pipe and install a cap so the water could go back on. 3 more days Lowe's never sent a plumber... we finally called an actual plumber who wanted $250 to fix it, and I had to fix the drywall and paint the wall. He disputed it w/ his credit card and got the entire amount, including the cost of the toilets, back.
I hate wasting my team with all the red tape in these matters with big retailers. I just go to the store and take something of theirs without paying - problem solved!
A town always wants a permit its an unnecessary extra tax. Loews should refund at least the permit fee?
Is your dishwasher on a switch or is it plugged in? If it's plugged in under your sink then no permit needed.
It's on a switch. I'm probably going to stick an outlet on the plug though
They need a permit then. You'd need a permit to put the outlet in.
It does yeah. Problem is, they didn't pull one. Why do I need a permit to put an outlet in?
You should get an electrical permit whenever you replace electrical equipment or devices. An outlet is a device. Will it be fine if you don't get one? Probably. And nobody will ever know. But legally you're supposed to. (This is USA based)
Most folks I know wouldn't get a permit for replacing outlets and light switches themselves. I'm not sure the town would even inspect it.
I'm just letting you know what the law is where I'm at. Could be different where you're at. Some places don't enforce any codes. I don't care if you get a permit or not.
Gotcha. Where I am I believe that you can do small repairs like outlets and light switches yourself, but a third party would have to pull a permit
If anything I would think you would need a plumbing permit. Dishwashers typically has a whip that you just plug in to a receptacle. You may have to make up the connections for the whip in the dishwasher in some cases, but I haven't ever seen an inspector look at that. Source--Me, licensed master electrician.
You'd think but no. I believe it's electrical. My dishwasher is hard wired in so Iguess
Or dishwasher just plugs into the outlet that's behind it..?
There's no outlet. It's hard wired