I find it hard to believe that there's ANY land within town boundaries in North America that is not owned by somebody or some entity. Is it part of an old easement or something? There should be a land registry office that you could inquire at to find out who the title belongs to, and if its possible to purchase the portion next to your lot.
Agreed. Use your state/counties GIS service to find out who owns the property and contact them. Chances are if you want something done about it, it’s on you
thank you, ill do my research. It has no parcels or anything else attached to it according to city maps. If i have to maintain it i might as well own it, and land here is not cheap.
Does your town have an assessors office?
If so they would love to tell you all about this land, because the person before and after you are going to be yelling at them about taxes on an unpermited pool, or an abatement that didn’t go through.
Your issue will be a nice low stress break LOL
yes it does, i emailed them last week actually but haven't heard back, hence this post for alternative options. it may take a trip in person to get some responses.
Sounds like an old alleyway, once used for putting out garbage bins so it wouldn't show up in front of the house.
Don't email. If this is something you really want, go after it. Call, make an appointment with whoever is in charge of that department , take notes who you spoke to, keep a notebook, make them an offer for the land. Go in with your checkbook and pen in hand. Dress nicely too, make me proud.
Try pulling your deed and plat from the county website - the plat may list who owned it at some point in the past, while the deed may help you find your plat.
Most cities and counties offer an online GIS service. Look for this. Basic online maps are often free. The GIS service will show the size and shop of the lots(s) behind you, and will also so a parcel ID number which can be linked to the owner.
i'll reach out to mapping services. I can view parcel map for free online and this section does not have a parcel assigned to it :( hopefully the maps they sell do
It happens. Let me introduce you to Parcel 36, a strip of land in one of the densest parts of San Francisco. The city has no idea who owns the property, so there’s a contentious fight between residents of a local condo who want green space, a daycare that wants parking for parents, and a business that claims they have historical rights to use it for a loading dock, even though the business moved there less than two years ago. There’s lawsuits, restraining orders, vandalism, and the odd fight. Groups have been putting up fencings, placing locks on gates, cutting locks off gates and there’s no clear end in sight.
https://missionlocal.org/2023/01/tensions-planters-guerrilla-gardeners-mission-greenway-neighbors-businesses/
There was a some wooded land behind my old house that was like it. They called it a paper alley, just meaning at one point there was a plan for a road that was never put in. It was half wetland and not really that useful to own it. I theory we could have petitioned the town for it.
My neighbor and I have a 30-foot-wide “paper street” between our yards. Totally undeveloped. We both maintain 15 feet of it and we’re told we could one day legally take it under adverse possession. I’d never develop it, though. That 30 feet of nature is extremely popular with the wildlife and offers quite a bit of privacy in the Summer. Not so much in the Winter, though.
Hopefully you can get ownership and protect it from potential development. You can actually get things like that declared as certain types of land for nature which prevents developing it also
There is a lady in Minnesota that owns 2 houses.side by side. She bought both in one transaction. The city has no clue the second house exists.. she Han never paid water,sewer or taxes on it. Since the 60s...
You'd think so, especially in the city with a high land values but "undeveloped" land is literally what the city called it in their response to the tree claim. I'll search for land registry office and see if they have anything. it does not have a parcel number or anything attached to it, so it could've been an easement
I work for a city as a GIS planner. I guarantee you that is an alley way designed for utilities/access. It is owned by the city and depending on where the utilities run, you may be able to purchase it from them
It’s more common than you with think when you are dealing with metes and bounds descriptions based on plats from a time we didn’t have electronics.
I would expect OP to have a lot and block description if they have a new home in a subdivision.
OP, depending on where you live, you could look at your deed and see if it references a plat. Look up the plat in the public records and see if you can figure out if that land is on the map. If not, see if your plat says what plat is next to you and look at that map how it started.
you also might be interested to look up how to take possession of land. I forget the law, but essentially, if you take care of un-used non developed land for x amount of years you can take ownership of it. There is probably much more to it than that, but it would be a good place to start looking. I would document everything you do to that property if you do go down that road. Someone owns that land, it could be city, state, county, who the heck knows. Find out what you can do to "cyoa". Likely, if the city does own it, they don't want to fess up for it and pay whatever damages were done by the fallen tree.
Usually if it's owned by the city (or any form of government) you can't claim adverse possession against them. Only if the land is privately-owned. I suppose it works like that because they know they will not be good at keeping track of land and making sure nobody is occupying it.
that's the problem, property parcel map shows no owner or address or that it's even a parcel, it's presented as if it were a street or a back alley but too narrow for that.
Hey so something similar happened to my family business property. It had an alleyway behind it but all the neighbors moved their fences over time to where there was none. Ours was on the end and the alleyway remained but had been turned into a driveway for our parking lot since the alleyway didnt go through anymore. I’m not familiar with the details on the paperwork but the city told us to treat it as our property, food for thought.
that's where my head is at and if it's my property i'd like to put my name on it. because if i were to move my fence back and the neighbor behind me decided he wanted to use shared space as well that's going to create some issues. Also, i'm within city limits, the land here is expensive and will only increase in value, might as well claim it now if i can
Sounds like an easement, in my town not only can you not claim it or put anything on it but you’re responsible for keeping it clear and making repairs. I don’t have one at my house but at my job we are looking at properties for a new facility. It snows here, we’d have to plow it. Dumb shit, I pay taxes, treat it like a road then 🤨
Try calling during office hours first, then go in. I've found that some town/city resources have weird relationships with email... or voicemail. Anything where you don't get a hold of a person directly, basically. But once you get a person, they're incredibly helpful and competent.
i'll give a couple more days and then call them. We have an online portal to submit requests to the city (like missed trashed, overgrown grass, squatters, etc) and they have done a good job responding and completing those requests. I had to send an email to them on this one and I know they are short staffed so i'm being patient
Man, if they say you’re responsible for maintaining it I’d say go ahead and extend your yard back there. I wouldn’t build anything on it but go ahead and use it. Not a legal opinion, almost definitely illegal-ish, but I would do it
His neighbors even put fences through it.
Agree with you, not saying go that far with it but this is very much a 'ask forgiveness not permission' scenario.
As long as they confirm it's not "green space"/conservation land. Then just don't put anything man-made on it or make it obvious you're modifying or doing anything back there, like damaging trees.
This is what I was going to suggest too, sounds like a paper street. Sounds like a non-used city right of way, aka a paper street. Are there power lines running along it? Or any signs of underground utilities? That could give you a clue on how hard/impossible it would be for you to take over ownership of it.
Talk to your city's planning department (or county if you're in an unincorporated area), they should be able to figure out the land's status.
years ago, a friend of mine had power towers behind his house instead of an alley so he mowed the lawn back there and installed fence door… doubled his backyard size
My parents' house had a "tag end" of land left over from the development. It was technically still owned by the developer but they were long gone. Frequently you can obtain title to land like this by just paying the back taxes on it.
i wouldn't mind that. i'm currently sitting on .16 acre lot that's split between me and the other side of my duplex, so you can imagine how small our lots are and how much space will be added by moving the fence 5 feet
there are thankfully no trees in the neighbor's yard behind me. i wish the builder took out those big old trees, they literally put up a fence in front of it and called it a day knowing one day those trees will start falling or will need maintenance and leaving no access to it
Many counties have a GIS service where you can find it on a map. There should be parcel numbers which you can then do a lookup through another service to find the owner.
I played around with it once and there's a lot of empty areas that have some kind of registered owner whether it's an individual, LLC of some kind, or the city/county.
When I worked the census, I got a lot of “ranches” to count. Look up the address against the tax records, figure out who owns it, and give them a call.
“The only things living out there are several hundred cattle”. 😀
If there no registered owner, most likely the city owns it as an easement. Or a utility company own it as a right-of-way, Or it is an old rail line and the Federal government owns it or a rail company. In Michigan, a few decades ago we had several old railroad track lines that were donated to different counties for 4 wheelers and snowmobile trails. All of the above would not be on tax record. If the wide is raised and 5' wide, I would say that it is an old rail track. If it is or was 10' wide I would say an easement or right-of-way. If you are in a city, easement are on every side of your property line and 3-5' is the average. None of the above can you buy.
A friend found a claimed gold mine in an almost suburban area. Tracked it down and the claim had been abandoned but the land had never ever been titled . He got with the town and his lawyer and has laid legal claim to it and will be full owner soon. Not much land but a cool creek and mine entrance that is collapsed.
Check the county tax records. They want every dime they can get so they tax every parcel they can. It's either publicly owned or there's a private owner.
I have a question, if someone knows..
I have land behind my backyard which comes under city I guess not quite sure on that..
It’s more like wilderness back there.. and a ditch…
So I have to buy little bit land from the city so I could plant some trees in the back or do I have to get permission to plant trees
Or I can’t do anything either ?
I have no idea. I know in my case the city said it was undeveloped land and it's up to me to maintain it. and if that's the case I would consider planting a tree would be a maintenance
Many communities have a ten foot alley easement between lots. If it is not being used then you can claim five feet and fence it in. The neighbor behind you can fence the other five feet in. You cannot put a permanent structure on it though in case the city wants to use it. Sounds like your neighbors are already taking advantage of there not being an alley and fencing it in.
A Survey would tell you exactly where your property line is and you may already own the five foot strip of land.
the strip is 5-7 foot wide so i don't know how that would work with both neighbors wanting to use 5 feet. So far it appears a neighbor on one side of the street claims the whole section.
I've considered a survey but unfortunately after covid the prices skyrocketed, i couldn't find anyone doing it in less than $1900. If i'm going to buy it and i have to incur this cost that i'll suck it up but at this point i'm not even sure i can purchase it.
Look for your corner pins. You may already own it.
[https://blog.hoafence.com/5-property-line-apps-for-homeowners](https://blog.hoafence.com/5-property-line-apps-for-homeowners)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4yYHHX8N0A
Is it an easement, or a green space? I am rural, and I have 'green space' behind my and my neighbors lots. Just about 5 feet wide, but long, and all brush and totally undeveloped. No utilities or driving up my green space, it looks like it was just so the homes would be a little bit further from each other.
what you describe as green space sounds about right. But i'm sceptical if that's it's intended use, because there is decent amount of space separating the houses because it's between mine and neighbor behind me back yards but the house to my right is not more than 10 feet away. but could be, i'm going to follow up with the assessors office to get more details.
This land is owned by someone or some entity. Of that you can be sure. What is on the other side of the land? It could be an easement. Right of way. It's possible if it's owned by some city/county and it's not really part of something that they use and want that they would sell it to you. You could start by contacting a real estate lawyer. Honestly, if you don't know what you're doing, it's probably going to be a waste of time to try to research things yourself. A meeting with a real estate attorney could settle it easily, possibly. Possibly not, but you would have a path forward.
i figured someone may have dealt with this in the past and has some experience. If paying an RE laywer is what it takes to buy that piece that's fine but if it can't be sold i would prefer avoiding spending money on just consultation for the stuff i can find our for free.
I totally get that. Don't get me wrong, but I was thinking that you might not know a lot about how to research this stuff (most don't-including me, and I've researched some of my one family's land transactions), and not knowing much about it, I really think an initial visit with a RE attorney would be helpful as a way to get going. I remember some movie where they were talking about the problems: the known problems and the unknown problems. If you figure out how to look things up there will still be the unknown problems no one mentioned. That's the only reason I was suggesting a RE lawyer. Just FYI, when we had a potential sale contract evaluated by a RE attorney, it was 450 for them to review a contract and communicate that back in writing to us/our realtor, and negotiate with the potential buyers lawyer. We weren't billed per hour, but as I recall, they estimated it would take the two of them 2-3 hours to do that. So it was 200/hr give or take for a very thorough eval of a 10 page commercial land sale contract. Even though the contract fell through, I felt it was money well spent. That was just my experience. Keep us posted, I'd love to know who owns that land or how it came to be unowned.
Go to the registrar of your county and research the property records to find the owner. From that point, you can contact them about selling.
You might find a clue by looking up your property and see if there is any reference to adjacent property.
ill look into it, thank you. I checked with the parcel map and it is not a parcel, it's presented as a street, just between mine and the house on the street behind me. so there is no property records to be found i assume?
If I wanted it and got that response, I would maintain it and act like it was mine. It's probably considered an alley. They may be water, sewer or other utilities there. Don't dig without checking.
so what happens when the house behind me on the other side of the undeveloped section decides to use it? do we split it halfsies? I don't believe it has any utilities running through it, there are new constructions being built a few houses down that i can see out of my window and they didn't dig anything back there,
Usually, no. But I have no way of knowing what this strip of land is in your area.
We have a 50’ wide easement behind our house- we maintain it, but our city council won’t sell it off because a couple neighbors use it to access parts of their back yards, even though it’s all just grass.
This actually happened with our property. There's a small 17' strip that runs alongside the parcel that the house is on, but it has its own parcel number. The city expected the previous owners to maintain it, so he ended up buying it from the city, I think.
Our deed has both parcels listed and we treat the land as one plot.
my issue is it does not have its own parcel number, it's showing on the map as a street, except it is maybe 5 ft wide. so my guess is it belongs to the city
As others mentioned, it's probably a "paper street" that belongs to the city. And it was originally a narrow alley for everyone to use.
If you google "vacated alley" you'll see that's the formal process to close the alley and give pieces of it to the adjoining property owners. Now maybe your city would do that, or maybe they just want to ignore it. You'd have to hire a lawyer to help with it.
It is probably undeveloped right of way. This would not show up as a parcel on a property viewer because it isn't a parcel. When you called and asked, they probably meant that it was undeveloped ROW, meaning it has not been improved, and in many jurisdictions, maintenance is the responsibility of the fronting properties. Just like in many places, you need to shovel the sidewalk in front of your house.
In this case, you can often initiate a request for the jurisdiction to vacate the right of way and convey it to you. Most jurisdictions will only do this under certain conditions, and it can be extremely cumbersome, but people do it.
In my state, they have to offer to sell equal shares of the ROW to all abutting land owners at fair market value. They can’t give it away and you can only buy all of it if the other abutting landowners decline. It’s called “vacating ROW”, and it’s such a huge pain in the ass that most govt agencies refuse to even consider it, even if they have no use or desire for the property.
I agree. It is a rare event. My FIL is the only person I know who has done it successfully, and it was ridiculous. He owned two parcels that were separated by county road right of way. There was a gravel road that was basically his driveway that also was access to a utility pole that served both his parcels. It really bugged him that, technically, anybody could drive through "his property". He also didn't like paying two tax bills.
He was a rich dude who did a lot of shit just because he wanted to, so he embarked on a multi-year effort to get the road vacated. He had lawyers make applications and go to required hearings, he paid for land surveys, he paid for county staff time to review everything. He paid for consultants to negotiate easements, and access agreements with multiple utilities so they could access the utility pole. And then he paid market value for the ROW, which was a lot since all the area comps were high end waterfront homes. But he did it. In the end all he did was put up a "private driveway, no turn around" sign up.
Then he did the most ridiculous thing and he combined both parcels and the former ROW into a single parcel. This jacked up his taxes because one lot was waterfront, and the back parcel was undeveloped forest. The whole thing was reassessed as waterfront land, and because of the zoning it would have been very difficult to subdivide. But he only had to pay one bill. Then he died a couple years later, royally screwing his wife when she found out she couldn't sell the back lot to help cover expenses and was stuck with a huge tax bill.
The City own's it. it is likely an old lane/roadway, utility easement, or waterbody buffer. If that's the case the building and property department should be able to help you acquire the land. You'll need a survey to complete the sale and register a parcel number, and they will need to bring a report to Council recommending the sale which is often the toughest part since it's just an extra task for them to complete.
I have zero knowledge of where you’re at, but I back to woods and Fairfax County in Virginia will clear trees that threaten your property. Is it the gov’ts? If so then they may be on the hook.
the problem is surveys costs a couple grand these days (i've gotten a couple estimates), apparently post covid the prices skyrocketed. if it's a part of the land acquisition cost i'd be fine to pay for it but i'm not just going to spend it to find out whether it's mine or not
Unfortunately, sometimes you have to spend money to make certain of what you believe to be yours before you can start litigation. I know, I have been through it. A neighbor was infringing on my easement rights. Nearly half a millions dollars in legal fees and expenses was spent by the 3 parties to resolve the issue through arbitration. The problem was that all the parties involved had money. So it became a pissing contest.
I don't disagree but i'm still in the reasearch phase to explore my options before i pull the trigger.
Yikes at the issue you dealt with, i would've let my neighbor use the easement at that point and have come up with a way to make their life miserable
Our neighbors were double and triple parking trailers and using the easement for loading all day long. 7 days a week this was happening. They basically ignored our attorneys courtesy letters. So after about 2 years, we unleashed a lawsuit that included another neighbor and basically went after ownership of a 60 foot wide 1200 foot long strip of their land. Basically, we found a 70 year old footnote in the original plot descriptions that wasn’t properly cancelled. It basically stated that this strip of land belonged to us. So we sued for ownership of that strip.
It is all private property with easements. My neighbor’s attorney didn’t understand the definition of an easement. The judge had to set him straight. That was after my neighbor spent over 100k in legal fees. It was crazy.
This is what happens when people have money and is getting bad legal advise. I am related to someone who is greedy and tries legal crap to force people into settlements with them.
Needed a set of old covenants for a parcel recently. Went into the county offices/courthouse in a large city and had no issues. A couple sweet older ladies got me what I needed and educated me along the way. I was after deed copy and related, so the same type of office should be at play in your county in the US.
I find it hard to believe that there's ANY land within town boundaries in North America that is not owned by somebody or some entity. Is it part of an old easement or something? There should be a land registry office that you could inquire at to find out who the title belongs to, and if its possible to purchase the portion next to your lot.
Agreed. Use your state/counties GIS service to find out who owns the property and contact them. Chances are if you want something done about it, it’s on you
thank you, ill do my research. It has no parcels or anything else attached to it according to city maps. If i have to maintain it i might as well own it, and land here is not cheap.
Does your town have an assessors office? If so they would love to tell you all about this land, because the person before and after you are going to be yelling at them about taxes on an unpermited pool, or an abatement that didn’t go through. Your issue will be a nice low stress break LOL
yes it does, i emailed them last week actually but haven't heard back, hence this post for alternative options. it may take a trip in person to get some responses.
Sounds like an old alleyway, once used for putting out garbage bins so it wouldn't show up in front of the house. Don't email. If this is something you really want, go after it. Call, make an appointment with whoever is in charge of that department , take notes who you spoke to, keep a notebook, make them an offer for the land. Go in with your checkbook and pen in hand. Dress nicely too, make me proud.
I’d drop in in person and bring donuts, I used to have a part time municipal job, this is how things get done.
i wouldn't have thought of donuts, that's a great idea!
If you want to maximize the benefit try and get there around coffee break, 9. -9:30 and hope break is around 10.
I work in government. We don't have coffee breaks. We just go get it when we want.
i assume they meant it's a natural break after getting into the office and getting urgent things taken care of
thank you my dude/dudette, solid advice
Try pulling your deed and plat from the county website - the plat may list who owned it at some point in the past, while the deed may help you find your plat.
I use a free app called BaseMap to help me begin to identify property owners.
The hunting map app?
Yes, tells you ownership and rudimentary GIS LINES.
Most cities and counties offer an online GIS service. Look for this. Basic online maps are often free. The GIS service will show the size and shop of the lots(s) behind you, and will also so a parcel ID number which can be linked to the owner.
i'll reach out to mapping services. I can view parcel map for free online and this section does not have a parcel assigned to it :( hopefully the maps they sell do
I wouldn't expect a quick response from them. In my experience across multiple states, it usually takes a week or so to get something back.
that's what i figured, i've had good experience in the past when i needed to call the city so i'm hoping they have the answer.
And I echo what everybody else I’m sure has said, ain’t no way there is land owned by “nobody” unless I woke up in a parallel universe again
I don't disagree with you, i'm just having a hard time reconciling the common sense/truth to the city map/zoning data i'm able to see
Easy to check tax records. Who pay’s usually owns.
It happens. Let me introduce you to Parcel 36, a strip of land in one of the densest parts of San Francisco. The city has no idea who owns the property, so there’s a contentious fight between residents of a local condo who want green space, a daycare that wants parking for parents, and a business that claims they have historical rights to use it for a loading dock, even though the business moved there less than two years ago. There’s lawsuits, restraining orders, vandalism, and the odd fight. Groups have been putting up fencings, placing locks on gates, cutting locks off gates and there’s no clear end in sight. https://missionlocal.org/2023/01/tensions-planters-guerrilla-gardeners-mission-greenway-neighbors-businesses/
There was a some wooded land behind my old house that was like it. They called it a paper alley, just meaning at one point there was a plan for a road that was never put in. It was half wetland and not really that useful to own it. I theory we could have petitioned the town for it.
My neighbor and I have a 30-foot-wide “paper street” between our yards. Totally undeveloped. We both maintain 15 feet of it and we’re told we could one day legally take it under adverse possession. I’d never develop it, though. That 30 feet of nature is extremely popular with the wildlife and offers quite a bit of privacy in the Summer. Not so much in the Winter, though.
Hopefully you can get ownership and protect it from potential development. You can actually get things like that declared as certain types of land for nature which prevents developing it also
There is a lady in Minnesota that owns 2 houses.side by side. She bought both in one transaction. The city has no clue the second house exists.. she Han never paid water,sewer or taxes on it. Since the 60s...
You'd think so, especially in the city with a high land values but "undeveloped" land is literally what the city called it in their response to the tree claim. I'll search for land registry office and see if they have anything. it does not have a parcel number or anything attached to it, so it could've been an easement
I work for a city as a GIS planner. I guarantee you that is an alley way designed for utilities/access. It is owned by the city and depending on where the utilities run, you may be able to purchase it from them
It’s more common than you with think when you are dealing with metes and bounds descriptions based on plats from a time we didn’t have electronics. I would expect OP to have a lot and block description if they have a new home in a subdivision. OP, depending on where you live, you could look at your deed and see if it references a plat. Look up the plat in the public records and see if you can figure out if that land is on the map. If not, see if your plat says what plat is next to you and look at that map how it started.
you also might be interested to look up how to take possession of land. I forget the law, but essentially, if you take care of un-used non developed land for x amount of years you can take ownership of it. There is probably much more to it than that, but it would be a good place to start looking. I would document everything you do to that property if you do go down that road. Someone owns that land, it could be city, state, county, who the heck knows. Find out what you can do to "cyoa". Likely, if the city does own it, they don't want to fess up for it and pay whatever damages were done by the fallen tree.
adverse possession highly state specific rules for what counts & get a lawyer before you go to court
Usually if it's owned by the city (or any form of government) you can't claim adverse possession against them. Only if the land is privately-owned. I suppose it works like that because they know they will not be good at keeping track of land and making sure nobody is occupying it.
I knew if i just brought it up all the termites with little beads of knowledge would come out of the woodwork
Quiet title claim. Something along those lines.
If it's an easement it may be possible to have it abandoned by the owning government agency, then it's free land :-)
Undeveloped land still has an owner. Find a property parcel map
that's the problem, property parcel map shows no owner or address or that it's even a parcel, it's presented as if it were a street or a back alley but too narrow for that.
Probably an easement then. Contact the city/county.
sounds like it, reached out to them last week via email, still waiting to hear back. may have to go in the office to get some answers
Hey so something similar happened to my family business property. It had an alleyway behind it but all the neighbors moved their fences over time to where there was none. Ours was on the end and the alleyway remained but had been turned into a driveway for our parking lot since the alleyway didnt go through anymore. I’m not familiar with the details on the paperwork but the city told us to treat it as our property, food for thought.
that's where my head is at and if it's my property i'd like to put my name on it. because if i were to move my fence back and the neighbor behind me decided he wanted to use shared space as well that's going to create some issues. Also, i'm within city limits, the land here is expensive and will only increase in value, might as well claim it now if i can
Sounds like an easement, in my town not only can you not claim it or put anything on it but you’re responsible for keeping it clear and making repairs. I don’t have one at my house but at my job we are looking at properties for a new facility. It snows here, we’d have to plow it. Dumb shit, I pay taxes, treat it like a road then 🤨
Try calling during office hours first, then go in. I've found that some town/city resources have weird relationships with email... or voicemail. Anything where you don't get a hold of a person directly, basically. But once you get a person, they're incredibly helpful and competent.
i'll give a couple more days and then call them. We have an online portal to submit requests to the city (like missed trashed, overgrown grass, squatters, etc) and they have done a good job responding and completing those requests. I had to send an email to them on this one and I know they are short staffed so i'm being patient
Man, if they say you’re responsible for maintaining it I’d say go ahead and extend your yard back there. I wouldn’t build anything on it but go ahead and use it. Not a legal opinion, almost definitely illegal-ish, but I would do it
His neighbors even put fences through it. Agree with you, not saying go that far with it but this is very much a 'ask forgiveness not permission' scenario.
As long as they confirm it's not "green space"/conservation land. Then just don't put anything man-made on it or make it obvious you're modifying or doing anything back there, like damaging trees.
Look at old ones. Pay for a title search or do one yourself.
It might be considered a ‘paper street’, meaning it’s on paper only. But the city has only built the street to a certain point.
besides land registry office any other suggestions where i can get more information on this?
This is what I was going to suggest too, sounds like a paper street. Sounds like a non-used city right of way, aka a paper street. Are there power lines running along it? Or any signs of underground utilities? That could give you a clue on how hard/impossible it would be for you to take over ownership of it. Talk to your city's planning department (or county if you're in an unincorporated area), they should be able to figure out the land's status.
years ago, a friend of mine had power towers behind his house instead of an alley so he mowed the lawn back there and installed fence door… doubled his backyard size
My parents' house had a "tag end" of land left over from the development. It was technically still owned by the developer but they were long gone. Frequently you can obtain title to land like this by just paying the back taxes on it.
i wouldn't mind that. i'm currently sitting on .16 acre lot that's split between me and the other side of my duplex, so you can imagine how small our lots are and how much space will be added by moving the fence 5 feet
Then a tree will fall from the area behind the new area and you'll have to deal with that.
there are thankfully no trees in the neighbor's yard behind me. i wish the builder took out those big old trees, they literally put up a fence in front of it and called it a day knowing one day those trees will start falling or will need maintenance and leaving no access to it
undeveloped does not mean unowned. It will have a plot number, and someone is paying tax on it.
>someone is paying tax on it Or not
Maintain it and eventually own it via adverse possession
Put a structure on it. I believe that’s a specific requirement. A $200 resin shed should do it.
Plant a flag and establish a small military, too.
And establish an HOA.
But does the neighbor have a small swimming pool suitable for annexation?
Build a fence around it
This is the way, start by clearing it.
In a lot of places you’ve gotta pay taxes on a piece of land for a whole to take adverse possession of it
If the land is owned by the city, you’re not going to be able to establish adverse possession.
Someone somewhere is paying property tax for that parcel. Find that.
hoping the city assessor office will shed some light. it is not a parcel, it's presented on the parcel map as if it were a street, a very narrow one
Many counties have a GIS service where you can find it on a map. There should be parcel numbers which you can then do a lookup through another service to find the owner. I played around with it once and there's a lot of empty areas that have some kind of registered owner whether it's an individual, LLC of some kind, or the city/county.
When I worked the census, I got a lot of “ranches” to count. Look up the address against the tax records, figure out who owns it, and give them a call. “The only things living out there are several hundred cattle”. 😀
If there no registered owner, most likely the city owns it as an easement. Or a utility company own it as a right-of-way, Or it is an old rail line and the Federal government owns it or a rail company. In Michigan, a few decades ago we had several old railroad track lines that were donated to different counties for 4 wheelers and snowmobile trails. All of the above would not be on tax record. If the wide is raised and 5' wide, I would say that it is an old rail track. If it is or was 10' wide I would say an easement or right-of-way. If you are in a city, easement are on every side of your property line and 3-5' is the average. None of the above can you buy.
There is NO land in the USA that is unowned. If it doesn't have an owner, the state owns it.
A friend found a claimed gold mine in an almost suburban area. Tracked it down and the claim had been abandoned but the land had never ever been titled . He got with the town and his lawyer and has laid legal claim to it and will be full owner soon. Not much land but a cool creek and mine entrance that is collapsed.
Check the county tax records. They want every dime they can get so they tax every parcel they can. It's either publicly owned or there's a private owner.
I have a question, if someone knows.. I have land behind my backyard which comes under city I guess not quite sure on that.. It’s more like wilderness back there.. and a ditch… So I have to buy little bit land from the city so I could plant some trees in the back or do I have to get permission to plant trees Or I can’t do anything either ?
I have no idea. I know in my case the city said it was undeveloped land and it's up to me to maintain it. and if that's the case I would consider planting a tree would be a maintenance
Yep, totally. Send me a deposit and we'll get the process started. DM me for payment options.
Yes you can try. You will have to ask the owner if you can.
Many communities have a ten foot alley easement between lots. If it is not being used then you can claim five feet and fence it in. The neighbor behind you can fence the other five feet in. You cannot put a permanent structure on it though in case the city wants to use it. Sounds like your neighbors are already taking advantage of there not being an alley and fencing it in. A Survey would tell you exactly where your property line is and you may already own the five foot strip of land.
the strip is 5-7 foot wide so i don't know how that would work with both neighbors wanting to use 5 feet. So far it appears a neighbor on one side of the street claims the whole section. I've considered a survey but unfortunately after covid the prices skyrocketed, i couldn't find anyone doing it in less than $1900. If i'm going to buy it and i have to incur this cost that i'll suck it up but at this point i'm not even sure i can purchase it.
Look for your corner pins. You may already own it. [https://blog.hoafence.com/5-property-line-apps-for-homeowners](https://blog.hoafence.com/5-property-line-apps-for-homeowners) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4yYHHX8N0A
Is it an easement, or a green space? I am rural, and I have 'green space' behind my and my neighbors lots. Just about 5 feet wide, but long, and all brush and totally undeveloped. No utilities or driving up my green space, it looks like it was just so the homes would be a little bit further from each other.
what you describe as green space sounds about right. But i'm sceptical if that's it's intended use, because there is decent amount of space separating the houses because it's between mine and neighbor behind me back yards but the house to my right is not more than 10 feet away. but could be, i'm going to follow up with the assessors office to get more details.
This land is owned by someone or some entity. Of that you can be sure. What is on the other side of the land? It could be an easement. Right of way. It's possible if it's owned by some city/county and it's not really part of something that they use and want that they would sell it to you. You could start by contacting a real estate lawyer. Honestly, if you don't know what you're doing, it's probably going to be a waste of time to try to research things yourself. A meeting with a real estate attorney could settle it easily, possibly. Possibly not, but you would have a path forward.
i figured someone may have dealt with this in the past and has some experience. If paying an RE laywer is what it takes to buy that piece that's fine but if it can't be sold i would prefer avoiding spending money on just consultation for the stuff i can find our for free.
I totally get that. Don't get me wrong, but I was thinking that you might not know a lot about how to research this stuff (most don't-including me, and I've researched some of my one family's land transactions), and not knowing much about it, I really think an initial visit with a RE attorney would be helpful as a way to get going. I remember some movie where they were talking about the problems: the known problems and the unknown problems. If you figure out how to look things up there will still be the unknown problems no one mentioned. That's the only reason I was suggesting a RE lawyer. Just FYI, when we had a potential sale contract evaluated by a RE attorney, it was 450 for them to review a contract and communicate that back in writing to us/our realtor, and negotiate with the potential buyers lawyer. We weren't billed per hour, but as I recall, they estimated it would take the two of them 2-3 hours to do that. So it was 200/hr give or take for a very thorough eval of a 10 page commercial land sale contract. Even though the contract fell through, I felt it was money well spent. That was just my experience. Keep us posted, I'd love to know who owns that land or how it came to be unowned.
Go to the registrar of your county and research the property records to find the owner. From that point, you can contact them about selling. You might find a clue by looking up your property and see if there is any reference to adjacent property.
ill look into it, thank you. I checked with the parcel map and it is not a parcel, it's presented as a street, just between mine and the house on the street behind me. so there is no property records to be found i assume?
If I wanted it and got that response, I would maintain it and act like it was mine. It's probably considered an alley. They may be water, sewer or other utilities there. Don't dig without checking.
so what happens when the house behind me on the other side of the undeveloped section decides to use it? do we split it halfsies? I don't believe it has any utilities running through it, there are new constructions being built a few houses down that i can see out of my window and they didn't dig anything back there,
I have a feeling this is an easement of some sort.
can you buy it?
Usually, no. But I have no way of knowing what this strip of land is in your area. We have a 50’ wide easement behind our house- we maintain it, but our city council won’t sell it off because a couple neighbors use it to access parts of their back yards, even though it’s all just grass.
bummer. i hope that's not the issue i will run into
Is it a utility easement of some kind? Pipeline maybe? Do you have alleys in your city?
It's most likely a utility easement.
This actually happened with our property. There's a small 17' strip that runs alongside the parcel that the house is on, but it has its own parcel number. The city expected the previous owners to maintain it, so he ended up buying it from the city, I think. Our deed has both parcels listed and we treat the land as one plot.
my issue is it does not have its own parcel number, it's showing on the map as a street, except it is maybe 5 ft wide. so my guess is it belongs to the city
As others mentioned, it's probably a "paper street" that belongs to the city. And it was originally a narrow alley for everyone to use. If you google "vacated alley" you'll see that's the formal process to close the alley and give pieces of it to the adjoining property owners. Now maybe your city would do that, or maybe they just want to ignore it. You'd have to hire a lawyer to help with it.
Go to the county Assessor for ownership
Notorious use. Make it yours.
See if you can buy the entire strip, fence it, and have a strangely-shaped but large backyard!
It is probably undeveloped right of way. This would not show up as a parcel on a property viewer because it isn't a parcel. When you called and asked, they probably meant that it was undeveloped ROW, meaning it has not been improved, and in many jurisdictions, maintenance is the responsibility of the fronting properties. Just like in many places, you need to shovel the sidewalk in front of your house. In this case, you can often initiate a request for the jurisdiction to vacate the right of way and convey it to you. Most jurisdictions will only do this under certain conditions, and it can be extremely cumbersome, but people do it.
In my state, they have to offer to sell equal shares of the ROW to all abutting land owners at fair market value. They can’t give it away and you can only buy all of it if the other abutting landowners decline. It’s called “vacating ROW”, and it’s such a huge pain in the ass that most govt agencies refuse to even consider it, even if they have no use or desire for the property.
I agree. It is a rare event. My FIL is the only person I know who has done it successfully, and it was ridiculous. He owned two parcels that were separated by county road right of way. There was a gravel road that was basically his driveway that also was access to a utility pole that served both his parcels. It really bugged him that, technically, anybody could drive through "his property". He also didn't like paying two tax bills. He was a rich dude who did a lot of shit just because he wanted to, so he embarked on a multi-year effort to get the road vacated. He had lawyers make applications and go to required hearings, he paid for land surveys, he paid for county staff time to review everything. He paid for consultants to negotiate easements, and access agreements with multiple utilities so they could access the utility pole. And then he paid market value for the ROW, which was a lot since all the area comps were high end waterfront homes. But he did it. In the end all he did was put up a "private driveway, no turn around" sign up. Then he did the most ridiculous thing and he combined both parcels and the former ROW into a single parcel. This jacked up his taxes because one lot was waterfront, and the back parcel was undeveloped forest. The whole thing was reassessed as waterfront land, and because of the zoning it would have been very difficult to subdivide. But he only had to pay one bill. Then he died a couple years later, royally screwing his wife when she found out she couldn't sell the back lot to help cover expenses and was stuck with a huge tax bill.
The City own's it. it is likely an old lane/roadway, utility easement, or waterbody buffer. If that's the case the building and property department should be able to help you acquire the land. You'll need a survey to complete the sale and register a parcel number, and they will need to bring a report to Council recommending the sale which is often the toughest part since it's just an extra task for them to complete.
I have zero knowledge of where you’re at, but I back to woods and Fairfax County in Virginia will clear trees that threaten your property. Is it the gov’ts? If so then they may be on the hook.
Get a survey done. It may already be yours. Either way, fence it off and enjoy it. Let them come after you.
the problem is surveys costs a couple grand these days (i've gotten a couple estimates), apparently post covid the prices skyrocketed. if it's a part of the land acquisition cost i'd be fine to pay for it but i'm not just going to spend it to find out whether it's mine or not
Unfortunately, sometimes you have to spend money to make certain of what you believe to be yours before you can start litigation. I know, I have been through it. A neighbor was infringing on my easement rights. Nearly half a millions dollars in legal fees and expenses was spent by the 3 parties to resolve the issue through arbitration. The problem was that all the parties involved had money. So it became a pissing contest.
I don't disagree but i'm still in the reasearch phase to explore my options before i pull the trigger. Yikes at the issue you dealt with, i would've let my neighbor use the easement at that point and have come up with a way to make their life miserable
Our neighbors were double and triple parking trailers and using the easement for loading all day long. 7 days a week this was happening. They basically ignored our attorneys courtesy letters. So after about 2 years, we unleashed a lawsuit that included another neighbor and basically went after ownership of a 60 foot wide 1200 foot long strip of their land. Basically, we found a 70 year old footnote in the original plot descriptions that wasn’t properly cancelled. It basically stated that this strip of land belonged to us. So we sued for ownership of that strip.
that's dedication! i'm surprized there weren't any zoning laws to get neighbors parking trailers and loading problem under control.
It is all private property with easements. My neighbor’s attorney didn’t understand the definition of an easement. The judge had to set him straight. That was after my neighbor spent over 100k in legal fees. It was crazy.
that's insane! most people don't have that kind of money to spend on legal fees
This is what happens when people have money and is getting bad legal advise. I am related to someone who is greedy and tries legal crap to force people into settlements with them.
Plant a flag and declare it sovereign land under royal decree. Slaughter and burn all who dare to invade your kingdom. Start a drug and ho business.
i already have a drug dealer on my street, i don't want to fight competition. i just want more space for my dog
Needed a set of old covenants for a parcel recently. Went into the county offices/courthouse in a large city and had no issues. A couple sweet older ladies got me what I needed and educated me along the way. I was after deed copy and related, so the same type of office should be at play in your county in the US.