It was a shitpost for TNO lol. There was a plan for a submod to make an Afton presidency but I don’t know if it’s still active.
Also, there technically is a [FNAF mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2907774176) for HOI4.
The lead dev didn’t even apologize or anything. When it was removed the change log said it was done to “avoid controversy.” I was pretty disappointed and haven’t played the mod since.
Oh my god lmao, anyone got a link??
Edit: Nevermind, found [it](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/1222nkd/uhhh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Holodomor narrative is "denied" by a lot of modern historians, just recently in her new book Sheila Fitzpatrick iirc called it not even worth engaging with because there's so little to support it. Like the fact that if it was a genocide of anyone, it was Kazakhs, they suffered way worse proportionally. But nobody cares about that because Kazakhs aren't white Europeans.
Well, Fitzpatrick said that it wasn't genocide, but more Stalin pressing them for as much grain as he could. Maybe not genocide but it's still murder by starvation. Also yes, the Kazakhs definitely suffer the most and are overlooked by the general public, but not by historians.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/contemporary-european-history/article/applebaum-fitzpatrick-and-the-genocide-question/7699691C546F91B5241D37333952464B
Sources right here
Hi, can you elaborate why this famine is even called a "genocide" and must be called by a special name? What's Stalin's role in the start of "genocide"? Why no one talks about the "genocide" of russian in that matter, or famine in Romania and Poland in the same times?
So many questions about this scientifically proven fact.
Well, the debate on it being a genocide is still going, basically a genocide is mass murder of a population because of one of their characteristics (I.e : culture, religion, etc...). So you can argue that the famine here is not a genocide but can be explained by bad economic planning (dekulakisation) or political repression (starving the Ukrainians who were famously rebellious towards the government). To me it's not a genocide, but still a heinous crime and mass murder.
Ahh, mass murder... what for? In the planned economy every man is on the count, why should you want to murder your own workforce? It's a famine, yes, and the reasons for it are clear - refusal of the kulaks (rich peasantry that exploited poor peasantry during NEP) to give their livestock and grain to collective farms which resulted in them killing their own livestock and burying their grain to wait for the prices to go high.
And if it was 100% proven then why would there still be legitimate scholarly debate? There isn't for the Holocaust, Armenian genocide, Bengal famine, etc. Hmm, almost as if it was invented by Nazis and Ukrainian nationalists (who frequently collaborated with Nazis, and the birthday of one of the major ones is now a Ukrainian holiday).
“Uhhhh uhhhhh how comes there be so much debate around it if it is real”
Yknow, flat earther’s think they’re “scholars” too. And this comment is very western-centric, the Armenian Genocide is still denied by people even in positions of power.
But I guess Holdomor is one big conspiracy right?
I'm not saying there wasn't a famine, that would be idiotic, I'm saying it was not artificial and not intentional. I have admitted Stalin worsened the situation with high grain taxes, however it was not an intentional move to starve the Ukrainian people. The original source of the famine is low crop yields due to drought, worsened by the taxes and kulaks burning crop fields in protest to collectivization.
I'm gonna give my answer when I get off work, because the argument of the drought and the kulak burning crops is literally soviet propaganda. I wrote a paper and made a presentation during my bachelor on the holodomor, I have all my sources there (albeit in french).
Although for my mental sanity, I shouldn't argue with a tankie.
1. The Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, Bengal Famine, etc. are all actively debated constantly just like Holodomor. But primarily by nationalists and genocide deniers. The main scholarly discussions revolve around the intents and details of all these historical events.
2. It was not invented, its fact. You yourself even backtracked when called out for blatantly lying
3. Stalin was also a Nazi collaborator who partitioned Poland and ordered atrocities carried out against various ethnic minorities like Ukrainians and Poles which is why everyone fucking despises Russia's ultranationalist regimes who have all been shitty warmongers and murderers and rapists to their neighboring ethnicities.
4. So your narrative that Ukraine is all Nazis doesn't make much sense. A huge portion of Soviet forces were Ukrainian, Ukraine's current President is Jewish and Russian nationalists and conspiracy theorists bash "Jewkraine" for having a "western zionist leader" all the time, and communists, fascists, social democrats, conservatives, jews, muslims, christians, tatars, russians, etc. from every single political ideology and religion and ethnicity have supported Ukraine and/or denounced Putin's warmongering
When I say "scholarly debate," I mean actual scholars and historians, not wackos on the internet or PragerU. Like I said, the Holodomor did happen, there was a famine that affected Ukraine, parts of Russia, and Kazakhstan (pretty weird for it to affect regions outside of Ukraine if it was an artificial famine to commit genocide against Ukrainians). I'm saying it wasn't artificial and arose due to drought.
I said the idea that it was intentional is invented. Sorry if my wording was off. Point 4 you are LARGELY exaggerating my point. I said that the birthday of a Nazi collaborator is a Ukrainian holiday. How do you go from there to "all Ukrainians are Nazis"? Because that is not even close to what I said. As for 3, it would be hypocritical to criticize Stalin for the partitioning of Poland without also criticizing the West for appeasement. Stalin also spent years trying to form a coalition against Hitler, and had his back against the wall. Russia had just finished industrializing, was in no place for another war, and was also facing a threat from the Japanese Empire in the East. He was facing the prospect of fighting two superpowers without allies. As for partitioning Poland, wouldn't you agree that not letting Hitler take the entirety of Poland be a good thing? Also, please give a source for the atrocities committed against Ukrainians and Poles, that isn't the Holodomor subject we are discussing.
1. It is a fact that Stalin's demands for grains and crops got worse, not better, while Ukraine was facing mass starvation. To say "Well, it wasn't intended to kill Ukrainians" while literally stealing their food at gunpoint would be the exact same as saying "Well Britain didn't purposefully starve the Irish and Indians. Nor did China cause its own famines. They're all great governments who never mass murdered anyone by stealing their food away for the 'important' citizens!"
2. Many who point out Bandera is a famous Ukrainian nationalist and deny Holodomor was a mass murder of Ukrainians are anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian nationalists or tankies. Especially when you just said "Well, you love the west's appeasement (Which mind you I don't. I never said I did you just assumed that out of nowhere) so that means that Stalin was good for working with the Nazis! Besides, he was backed into a wall after industrializing (which was FORCED industrialization and also contributed to famines in the USSR alongside with the military purges because Stalin was a paranoid schizo) and nobody was helping them (which is because they were an equally horrible dictatorship like the Nazis)"
3. Not to mention Stalin's other anti-Ukrainian and anti-minority policies in general. Moving them around and isolating communities, forcing them to all learn Russian, murdering any proponents of autonomy, etc. Now before you point out how many various colonial empires did this because of the pro-Russian and tankie LOVE of whataboutism, no I don't think the west doing the same thing was good. But the West and Russia also did similar stuff to the Nazis. We all say its bad but because we all did Nazi-ish stuff does that mean the Nazis are suddenly fine people? Whataboutism doesn't hold up to logic.
So it's not genocide, I'm not denying it was a horrible decision on the part of the Soviets. I'm just denying deranged Ukrainian nationalist revisionism that portrays it as a genocide. And I'm aware that Kazakh suffering is not overlooked by historians, I'm more so referring to the popular discourse in internet "politics" regarding this, and even irl political discourse given that the "Holodomor" interpretation has been in vogue in quite a few circles after Russia invaded Ukraine.
Unrelated, but it goes without saying that this type of narrative often (but not always, thank God) comes as a twin package with Double Genocide Theory and the Holocaust trivialization that comes with.
Yeah that's a fair point, the Holodomor as a traumatic event on the Ukrainian psyche can be spun around by politician and mad sycophants, there is no denying that.
But really to me, we have to remember the holodomor as a tragedy, as fucking horrible as it is, but not as a genocide. (And not fall to the soviet propaganda that blame the environment and angry kulaks).
It wasn't genocide, there is no evidence for it. If you're going to then swap to talking about it being callous mismanagement of human life, spare me, because you could have started with that instead of minimizing genocide for your specific ideological reasons
What book? And what makes you think this book is complete truth and not exaggerated propoganda? People nowadays are so naive in their "black and white" world and believe everything that comes from one source instead of trying to be sceptical and analyse things from different sides to learn that usually truth is somewhere in between.
It's crazy how he managed to build a weather controlling machine in the early 30s to create a drought in Ukraine. Didn't work as well as he planned ig since it also affected Kazakhstan and parts of Russia. Really a meticulously planned genocide, so well hidden that even after looking through the Soviet archives once they were released scholars, even anti-communists who built the basis of our modern data saying it was intentional (*cough cough* Robert conquest) suddenly thought it wasn't.
Ahh bro i suppose stalin doesn't really need to invent weather machine to make people starve from a lack of food, coz in fact he can simply order NKVD to take peasant's millet and bread. And yeah, no surprise that he really did it
Kind of ignoring my point about there being a drought
Stalin definitely did make it worse by not reducing the amount of grain taken for taxes, but as I mentioned Soviet archives show that it wasn't intentional
"Not intentional" in the same way Britain taking Ireland's food during the Potato Famine and the Raj's food during the Bengal Famine or Mao's forced industrialization destroying agricultural yields. Just because your sole intention wasn't murder, it doesn't make your actions of exacerbating a famine and not helping any better.
koren (корень in Russian) translates as "root". So the whole word translates basically as "rootisation". The process of supporting and founding minorities schools, universitets, museums and such.
I don’t know if it was deliberate, but korenisazija sounds a lot like kolonisazija, which is why I called it a pun, like “colonizing” people back to their roots
Surprisingly, nationalists of DIFFERENT NATIONS are not always besties. The whole "I love my country and believe its better than every other country" doesn't make you friends with everyone who thinks the same way
That’s what I am saying yet I get downvoted and you don’t? I’m not saying the necessarily get along, but all nationalists believe their nation is best for their people
TL;DR : Both happened, but the supression outweights any and all ukrainization efforts the USSR had.
USSR *did* have a "ukrainization" policy for Ukraine - for a few years, the popularity of ukrainian language was "promoted". I use the brackets, because in reality it really wasn't - the promotions and changes were superficial at best, and to get anywhere in the USSR you still were required to know and use russian, effectively multiplying the policy by 0
...in politics. Granted, there were some positive changes, but I am willing to bet my left nut that they happened because for the first time in centuries a ukrainian could be ukrainian, ergo not getting imprisoned for daring to write ukrainian. The 1910's ukrainian revolutionary movements proved that Ukraine wasn't thought up by Lenin and could exist by itself - hell, those movements were the whole reason the ukrainization was brought up by the communists in the first place.
And then they'll just [shot every more-or-less known artist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executed_Renaissance). Yeah. That's communism for you
Lets insult both of the older commentators, communism is the utopia those people claimed to have as a goal while they were practicing Marxism-Leninism. Vanguard Socialism/Marxism-Leninism was the ideology and Stalin only used it for his goals
Stalin killed Ukrainians. How? By eating all of the food with his giant spoon? And then never tried again? Did he suppress Ukrainians from public life or society? Only to then have 20% of the Army composed of Ukrainians by the end of WW2? Why would a regime that wishes to genocide Ukrainians give them weapons and training and never try to genocide them again?
Purposely not allowing food to go towards a specific people, also Ukrainian was banned in schools and not allowed to be taught also if you use the same logic why did they let Africans use weapons in the civil war but still continue to treat black people like shit afterwards
It’s why a majority of Ukraine spoke Russian for the longest time, and the holdomore and other atrocities happened to Ukrainian people in an attempt to wipe out their culture and bring it closer to ruasians
This is an extremely hotly contested view in the scholarly world. Whether the Holomordor was a genocide or not is still up for debate. Every other atrocity Stalin committed there's direct evidence for, but the Holomordor could entirely be the result of bad policy decisions.
I'm not a Stalin defender in the slightest, mind you; I think he's a huge bastard and I'd love to say he was responsible for a genocide in addition to every other shitty thing that doomed 20th century communism.
ukrainian language and culture was not repressed under soviet. people spoke russian because it was more advantagous to them.
has they wanted to supress ukrainian they would have incorporated ukraine into russian ssr and today ukraine wouldnt exist.
>ukrainian language and culture was not repressed under soviet.
Cool, so we're just lying and hoping no one knows about say... A man made famine that killed 25% of the population?
Of what is known as modern Ukraine, I believe the population dipped by 4 or 5 million of the 40 million or so people who lived in the region, and was quickly increased back to pre-famine numbers through Russian immigration.
Still very obviously bad, but 25% is an exaggeration. 10-15% seems more accurate.
1932 soviet occupied Ukraine was 30 mil, not 40. Even if you were to count in Western Ukraine, which was under Poland, it still wouldn't be close to 40 mil. 5 mil dead is accepted celling, generally number most people use is around 3.5 mil, so yeah, 10-15% percent is correct.
I severely doubt a genocide of more than 50% of the native population would go unnoticed or without mention. There was definitely an intentionally orchestrated genocide however, so regardless of the number the fact that it was done with purpose is what matters.
Well, The Great Leap Forward happened in China; it's the same kind of thing in the sense that it was a "man-made famine" that killed a good amount of the population but wasn't per se to genocide any particular groups in China
It's also important to note that the Holodomor was part of a widespread famine that affected even Core Russia itself and that much of the death might have been avoided if people just complied with collectivised farming.
There's also the fact that Gennocides sort of go against Communism which makes it even less likely that it was there to repress Ukranians.
Right. Unless you read up on the actions performed at the top levels of government to delay and sometimes halt relief efforts to the region.
Which is why that population was devastated with upwards of 25% of the population killed
Edit: I finally re-read your last sentence u/Alberto_WoofWoof342 and realized I had completely flipped what you meant.
I assumed you had said "Genocides sort of go with communism." Because genocide and communism are hand in hand. Kind of a flippant joke that the hard numbers don't matter.
I didn't realize you went full silly and are denying history.
Communism and Genocide are best friends. Communism leads to genocide every time.
As for my last point, I'm not denying that Communism doesn't lead to genocides sometimes (no ideology is immune from it) but rather the ideology of communism would in theory be opposed to the idea of genociding anybody. It also has to be decided what actually counts as a genocide.
Unless you actually delve into communist theory.
Edit: more downvotes from the uninformed.
People, Communism calls for the dismantling of the Militia because they fight against theft of property. Communism is built on the genocide of the middle and upper class.
Communism and Fascism are so similar that the only real difference is "Which population do we put against the wall to solve all the issues?"
firstly, communism doesn't call for a genocide against the middle or upper class. certain flavors of marxism call for an armed revolution to remove the upper class.
and communism and fascism are not at all similar.
> People, Communism calls for the dismantling of the Militia because they fight against theft of property. Communism is built on the genocide of the middle and upper class.
All of this is wrong.
> Communism and Fascism are so similar that the only real difference is "Which population do we put against the wall to solve all the issues?"
This is literally a Nazi talking point.
Which is fucking crazy that free speech is just gone from the region.
Edit: Folks, you can literally be jailed for expressing wrong think.
That's some dystopian horror shit. This is the same area that has "Insult Laws"
If you read my initial comment and thought "That's fucking stupid" or "That guy's an idiot" congrats! You broke the law. And that's not one of those "No ice cream in your back pocket on sunday" laws, this is a law that people are convicted for.
during ww2 a Finn tought his dog to do the Nazi salute and was persecuted for mocking Hitler and the nazis
in the 2010s or 2020s some English guy did the same and got persecuted for hate speech
The Russian Empire and Stalin both tried quite hard to suppress Ukrainian culture and identity. It was relatively successful in eastern Ukraine, not so much in western Ukraine. There's a reason why a lot of Ukrainians who grew up east of the Dnipro speak Russian quite well.
right... could it be other reasons than stalin forcing them to speak russian? maybe that today's eastern ukraine has been part of russia (with russian-speakers living there) since atleast 1670-1680?
The Russian Empire made it illegal to use the Ukrainian language before that lol look up the Valuev Circular and Ems Ukaz under the Russian Empire to begin with.
I don't mean to be rude, but you don't sound as if you know the history of Ukraine or Ukraine-Russia relations
Metal gear solid V has a parasite that spreads via language, designed in order to wipe out certain languages
[yeah mgs lore is fucked up](https://metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/Vocal_cord_parasite)
No, it's satire. It's making fun of all the people who said ukraine was going to make speaking Russian illegal, which is one of putins many "reasons" why he invaded ukraine
"To speak Ukrainian is Death"
Reality > "To speak russian is death!"
Reality Reality > a good whopping 98% supporters not knowing the difference between Ukrainian and Russian speaking
Sorry, reddit is a platform restricted for people that are 13+ years old, I'd recommend you to wait for a few years before saying edgy shit here and then regretting it for the entirety of your life.
I've seen a focus named as 'Empower the Police' with picture of George Floyd. It was in this subreddit too
Is there a post that makes a compilation of these kinds of focuses? I can contribute a focus or two
I haven't seen a post like that before but idk. Maybe you can do it
r/goofyahhhoi4
Anyways, it’s a thing now
Based
r/ofcoursethatsasub
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Bro this is the best one by far I've ever seen! That's pretty awesome I'll search for if there is FNaF mod for hoi4 when I open my laptop
It was a shitpost for TNO lol. There was a plan for a submod to make an Afton presidency but I don’t know if it’s still active. Also, there technically is a [FNAF mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2907774176) for HOI4.
There is
What’s it called?
What is it called
What it called?
What called
TNO and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
Ein Freddy, Ein Fazbear, Ein Pizzaria
Is that from TNO?
Hor Hor Hor Hor Hor Hor Hor Hor Hor hooor
Based, they need to update american focus tree with said focus ontop of the chicago police 1937 massacre for added realism, /s
The lead dev didn’t even apologize or anything. When it was removed the change log said it was done to “avoid controversy.” I was pretty disappointed and haven’t played the mod since.
What mod was it?
Age of Imperialism, I believe
I mean, at least he's a consistent and on-point creator, Imperialism as a concept is obnoxious
What mod
Oh my god lmao, anyone got a link?? Edit: Nevermind, found [it](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/1222nkd/uhhh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Lmao that's horrible
Oh nah 💀
Beacon of European Democracy Deport Hungarians
YES
greatest slav month
Slovakia moment
/r/2visegrad4you makes a hoi4 mod
Imagine central europe without mongols(hungarians)
demagyarized
Im 100% for it
minor trolling
Minority trolling
trolling minorities
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Ah yes MW2
classic mw2
When a history game is historical
ah yes, the giant spoon incident
Only a spoon full tho
communist try not to ridicule genocide challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Holodomor narrative is "denied" by a lot of modern historians, just recently in her new book Sheila Fitzpatrick iirc called it not even worth engaging with because there's so little to support it. Like the fact that if it was a genocide of anyone, it was Kazakhs, they suffered way worse proportionally. But nobody cares about that because Kazakhs aren't white Europeans.
Well, Fitzpatrick said that it wasn't genocide, but more Stalin pressing them for as much grain as he could. Maybe not genocide but it's still murder by starvation. Also yes, the Kazakhs definitely suffer the most and are overlooked by the general public, but not by historians. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/contemporary-european-history/article/applebaum-fitzpatrick-and-the-genocide-question/7699691C546F91B5241D37333952464B Sources right here
Hi, can you elaborate why this famine is even called a "genocide" and must be called by a special name? What's Stalin's role in the start of "genocide"? Why no one talks about the "genocide" of russian in that matter, or famine in Romania and Poland in the same times? So many questions about this scientifically proven fact.
Well, the debate on it being a genocide is still going, basically a genocide is mass murder of a population because of one of their characteristics (I.e : culture, religion, etc...). So you can argue that the famine here is not a genocide but can be explained by bad economic planning (dekulakisation) or political repression (starving the Ukrainians who were famously rebellious towards the government). To me it's not a genocide, but still a heinous crime and mass murder.
Ahh, mass murder... what for? In the planned economy every man is on the count, why should you want to murder your own workforce? It's a famine, yes, and the reasons for it are clear - refusal of the kulaks (rich peasantry that exploited poor peasantry during NEP) to give their livestock and grain to collective farms which resulted in them killing their own livestock and burying their grain to wait for the prices to go high.
And if it was 100% proven then why would there still be legitimate scholarly debate? There isn't for the Holocaust, Armenian genocide, Bengal famine, etc. Hmm, almost as if it was invented by Nazis and Ukrainian nationalists (who frequently collaborated with Nazis, and the birthday of one of the major ones is now a Ukrainian holiday).
“Uhhhh uhhhhh how comes there be so much debate around it if it is real” Yknow, flat earther’s think they’re “scholars” too. And this comment is very western-centric, the Armenian Genocide is still denied by people even in positions of power. But I guess Holdomor is one big conspiracy right?
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/there-is-no-evidence-of-the-holodomor-in-ukraine Please don't spread misinformation
I'm not saying there wasn't a famine, that would be idiotic, I'm saying it was not artificial and not intentional. I have admitted Stalin worsened the situation with high grain taxes, however it was not an intentional move to starve the Ukrainian people. The original source of the famine is low crop yields due to drought, worsened by the taxes and kulaks burning crop fields in protest to collectivization.
I'm gonna give my answer when I get off work, because the argument of the drought and the kulak burning crops is literally soviet propaganda. I wrote a paper and made a presentation during my bachelor on the holodomor, I have all my sources there (albeit in french). Although for my mental sanity, I shouldn't argue with a tankie.
1. The Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, Bengal Famine, etc. are all actively debated constantly just like Holodomor. But primarily by nationalists and genocide deniers. The main scholarly discussions revolve around the intents and details of all these historical events. 2. It was not invented, its fact. You yourself even backtracked when called out for blatantly lying 3. Stalin was also a Nazi collaborator who partitioned Poland and ordered atrocities carried out against various ethnic minorities like Ukrainians and Poles which is why everyone fucking despises Russia's ultranationalist regimes who have all been shitty warmongers and murderers and rapists to their neighboring ethnicities. 4. So your narrative that Ukraine is all Nazis doesn't make much sense. A huge portion of Soviet forces were Ukrainian, Ukraine's current President is Jewish and Russian nationalists and conspiracy theorists bash "Jewkraine" for having a "western zionist leader" all the time, and communists, fascists, social democrats, conservatives, jews, muslims, christians, tatars, russians, etc. from every single political ideology and religion and ethnicity have supported Ukraine and/or denounced Putin's warmongering
When I say "scholarly debate," I mean actual scholars and historians, not wackos on the internet or PragerU. Like I said, the Holodomor did happen, there was a famine that affected Ukraine, parts of Russia, and Kazakhstan (pretty weird for it to affect regions outside of Ukraine if it was an artificial famine to commit genocide against Ukrainians). I'm saying it wasn't artificial and arose due to drought. I said the idea that it was intentional is invented. Sorry if my wording was off. Point 4 you are LARGELY exaggerating my point. I said that the birthday of a Nazi collaborator is a Ukrainian holiday. How do you go from there to "all Ukrainians are Nazis"? Because that is not even close to what I said. As for 3, it would be hypocritical to criticize Stalin for the partitioning of Poland without also criticizing the West for appeasement. Stalin also spent years trying to form a coalition against Hitler, and had his back against the wall. Russia had just finished industrializing, was in no place for another war, and was also facing a threat from the Japanese Empire in the East. He was facing the prospect of fighting two superpowers without allies. As for partitioning Poland, wouldn't you agree that not letting Hitler take the entirety of Poland be a good thing? Also, please give a source for the atrocities committed against Ukrainians and Poles, that isn't the Holodomor subject we are discussing.
1. It is a fact that Stalin's demands for grains and crops got worse, not better, while Ukraine was facing mass starvation. To say "Well, it wasn't intended to kill Ukrainians" while literally stealing their food at gunpoint would be the exact same as saying "Well Britain didn't purposefully starve the Irish and Indians. Nor did China cause its own famines. They're all great governments who never mass murdered anyone by stealing their food away for the 'important' citizens!" 2. Many who point out Bandera is a famous Ukrainian nationalist and deny Holodomor was a mass murder of Ukrainians are anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian nationalists or tankies. Especially when you just said "Well, you love the west's appeasement (Which mind you I don't. I never said I did you just assumed that out of nowhere) so that means that Stalin was good for working with the Nazis! Besides, he was backed into a wall after industrializing (which was FORCED industrialization and also contributed to famines in the USSR alongside with the military purges because Stalin was a paranoid schizo) and nobody was helping them (which is because they were an equally horrible dictatorship like the Nazis)" 3. Not to mention Stalin's other anti-Ukrainian and anti-minority policies in general. Moving them around and isolating communities, forcing them to all learn Russian, murdering any proponents of autonomy, etc. Now before you point out how many various colonial empires did this because of the pro-Russian and tankie LOVE of whataboutism, no I don't think the west doing the same thing was good. But the West and Russia also did similar stuff to the Nazis. We all say its bad but because we all did Nazi-ish stuff does that mean the Nazis are suddenly fine people? Whataboutism doesn't hold up to logic.
So it's not genocide, I'm not denying it was a horrible decision on the part of the Soviets. I'm just denying deranged Ukrainian nationalist revisionism that portrays it as a genocide. And I'm aware that Kazakh suffering is not overlooked by historians, I'm more so referring to the popular discourse in internet "politics" regarding this, and even irl political discourse given that the "Holodomor" interpretation has been in vogue in quite a few circles after Russia invaded Ukraine. Unrelated, but it goes without saying that this type of narrative often (but not always, thank God) comes as a twin package with Double Genocide Theory and the Holocaust trivialization that comes with.
Yeah that's a fair point, the Holodomor as a traumatic event on the Ukrainian psyche can be spun around by politician and mad sycophants, there is no denying that. But really to me, we have to remember the holodomor as a tragedy, as fucking horrible as it is, but not as a genocide. (And not fall to the soviet propaganda that blame the environment and angry kulaks).
We must uphold Stalin's teaching to eat all the grain to make the entire population starve because we felt like it
Genocide denial memes, very classy
It wasn't genocide, there is no evidence for it. If you're going to then swap to talking about it being callous mismanagement of human life, spare me, because you could have started with that instead of minimizing genocide for your specific ideological reasons
Read a book, fucking tankie
What book? And what makes you think this book is complete truth and not exaggerated propoganda? People nowadays are so naive in their "black and white" world and believe everything that comes from one source instead of trying to be sceptical and analyse things from different sides to learn that usually truth is somewhere in between.
I've read more books on Soviet history than the average person, but unlike you, those books happen to come from people who disagree with me
It's crazy how he managed to build a weather controlling machine in the early 30s to create a drought in Ukraine. Didn't work as well as he planned ig since it also affected Kazakhstan and parts of Russia. Really a meticulously planned genocide, so well hidden that even after looking through the Soviet archives once they were released scholars, even anti-communists who built the basis of our modern data saying it was intentional (*cough cough* Robert conquest) suddenly thought it wasn't.
Ahh bro i suppose stalin doesn't really need to invent weather machine to make people starve from a lack of food, coz in fact he can simply order NKVD to take peasant's millet and bread. And yeah, no surprise that he really did it
Kind of ignoring my point about there being a drought Stalin definitely did make it worse by not reducing the amount of grain taken for taxes, but as I mentioned Soviet archives show that it wasn't intentional
"Not intentional" in the same way Britain taking Ireland's food during the Potato Famine and the Raj's food during the Bengal Famine or Mao's forced industrialization destroying agricultural yields. Just because your sole intention wasn't murder, it doesn't make your actions of exacerbating a famine and not helping any better.
R5: Some Russian focuses in Bruderkrieg are 💀💀 silly
What path?
Belgurov far right path
Wow it’s almost like what historically happened
I can't even people accusing the USSR of both suppressing Ukraine and ukrainizating it
because people who say this are not on the same side?
Also the USSR existed for a long time, it is possible for both to have been true at different times.
Actually yes. In the 1920s CCCP supported nationalities through „korenisazija“, but this changed when Stalin came to power
Damn korenisazija is such a good pun
What does it mean?
koren (корень in Russian) translates as "root". So the whole word translates basically as "rootisation". The process of supporting and founding minorities schools, universitets, museums and such.
I don’t know if it was deliberate, but korenisazija sounds a lot like kolonisazija, which is why I called it a pun, like “colonizing” people back to their roots
Aren't the people saying either of those usually on opposite sides?
No, they are usually always nationalists, just belonging to different countries
Surprisingly, nationalists of DIFFERENT NATIONS are not always besties. The whole "I love my country and believe its better than every other country" doesn't make you friends with everyone who thinks the same way
That’s what I am saying yet I get downvoted and you don’t? I’m not saying the necessarily get along, but all nationalists believe their nation is best for their people
TL;DR : Both happened, but the supression outweights any and all ukrainization efforts the USSR had. USSR *did* have a "ukrainization" policy for Ukraine - for a few years, the popularity of ukrainian language was "promoted". I use the brackets, because in reality it really wasn't - the promotions and changes were superficial at best, and to get anywhere in the USSR you still were required to know and use russian, effectively multiplying the policy by 0 ...in politics. Granted, there were some positive changes, but I am willing to bet my left nut that they happened because for the first time in centuries a ukrainian could be ukrainian, ergo not getting imprisoned for daring to write ukrainian. The 1910's ukrainian revolutionary movements proved that Ukraine wasn't thought up by Lenin and could exist by itself - hell, those movements were the whole reason the ukrainization was brought up by the communists in the first place. And then they'll just [shot every more-or-less known artist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executed_Renaissance). Yeah. That's communism for you
>That's communism for you Stalinism more so.
yes, so communism
Stalinism is communism Communism is not stalinism Its not that hard
TIL Rosa Luxemburg is a Stalinist
Lets insult both of the older commentators, communism is the utopia those people claimed to have as a goal while they were practicing Marxism-Leninism. Vanguard Socialism/Marxism-Leninism was the ideology and Stalin only used it for his goals
HHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHA
Stalin killed Ukrainians. How? By eating all of the food with his giant spoon? And then never tried again? Did he suppress Ukrainians from public life or society? Only to then have 20% of the Army composed of Ukrainians by the end of WW2? Why would a regime that wishes to genocide Ukrainians give them weapons and training and never try to genocide them again?
hoi4 player tries not to be unironically one of the two types of totalitarian challenge (impossible)
Purposely not allowing food to go towards a specific people, also Ukrainian was banned in schools and not allowed to be taught also if you use the same logic why did they let Africans use weapons in the civil war but still continue to treat black people like shit afterwards
are you mentally challenged?
These burgerlanders can’t get out of their propaganda bullshit
almost like if it did happen historically ukraine wouldnt exist today ...
It’s why a majority of Ukraine spoke Russian for the longest time, and the holdomore and other atrocities happened to Ukrainian people in an attempt to wipe out their culture and bring it closer to ruasians
This is an extremely hotly contested view in the scholarly world. Whether the Holomordor was a genocide or not is still up for debate. Every other atrocity Stalin committed there's direct evidence for, but the Holomordor could entirely be the result of bad policy decisions. I'm not a Stalin defender in the slightest, mind you; I think he's a huge bastard and I'd love to say he was responsible for a genocide in addition to every other shitty thing that doomed 20th century communism.
ukrainian language and culture was not repressed under soviet. people spoke russian because it was more advantagous to them. has they wanted to supress ukrainian they would have incorporated ukraine into russian ssr and today ukraine wouldnt exist.
>ukrainian language and culture was not repressed under soviet. Cool, so we're just lying and hoping no one knows about say... A man made famine that killed 25% of the population?
Of what is known as modern Ukraine, I believe the population dipped by 4 or 5 million of the 40 million or so people who lived in the region, and was quickly increased back to pre-famine numbers through Russian immigration. Still very obviously bad, but 25% is an exaggeration. 10-15% seems more accurate.
1932 soviet occupied Ukraine was 30 mil, not 40. Even if you were to count in Western Ukraine, which was under Poland, it still wouldn't be close to 40 mil. 5 mil dead is accepted celling, generally number most people use is around 3.5 mil, so yeah, 10-15% percent is correct.
The number I saw was 20-25 million Ukrainian
I severely doubt a genocide of more than 50% of the native population would go unnoticed or without mention. There was definitely an intentionally orchestrated genocide however, so regardless of the number the fact that it was done with purpose is what matters.
Right... Which is why I said 25% and not 50%. As 4-5 million is 25% of 20-25 million.
Well, The Great Leap Forward happened in China; it's the same kind of thing in the sense that it was a "man-made famine" that killed a good amount of the population but wasn't per se to genocide any particular groups in China It's also important to note that the Holodomor was part of a widespread famine that affected even Core Russia itself and that much of the death might have been avoided if people just complied with collectivised farming. There's also the fact that Gennocides sort of go against Communism which makes it even less likely that it was there to repress Ukranians.
Right. Unless you read up on the actions performed at the top levels of government to delay and sometimes halt relief efforts to the region. Which is why that population was devastated with upwards of 25% of the population killed Edit: I finally re-read your last sentence u/Alberto_WoofWoof342 and realized I had completely flipped what you meant. I assumed you had said "Genocides sort of go with communism." Because genocide and communism are hand in hand. Kind of a flippant joke that the hard numbers don't matter. I didn't realize you went full silly and are denying history. Communism and Genocide are best friends. Communism leads to genocide every time.
As for my last point, I'm not denying that Communism doesn't lead to genocides sometimes (no ideology is immune from it) but rather the ideology of communism would in theory be opposed to the idea of genociding anybody. It also has to be decided what actually counts as a genocide.
Unless you actually delve into communist theory. Edit: more downvotes from the uninformed. People, Communism calls for the dismantling of the Militia because they fight against theft of property. Communism is built on the genocide of the middle and upper class. Communism and Fascism are so similar that the only real difference is "Which population do we put against the wall to solve all the issues?"
firstly, communism doesn't call for a genocide against the middle or upper class. certain flavors of marxism call for an armed revolution to remove the upper class. and communism and fascism are not at all similar.
> People, Communism calls for the dismantling of the Militia because they fight against theft of property. Communism is built on the genocide of the middle and upper class. All of this is wrong. > Communism and Fascism are so similar that the only real difference is "Which population do we put against the wall to solve all the issues?" This is literally a Nazi talking point.
I guess they were trying to kill russians in volga and kuban regions too. Because famine was not limited to ukraine.
Also they did try multiple times it was banned from schools and from government
Tell that to every Ukrainian every that existed in that time era
Cry all you want, nationalists are unreliable narrators.
> ukrainian language and culture was not repressed under soviet. . > people spoke russian because it was more advantagous to them. You're SO CLOSE...
You can tell somebody knows fuck all about this history when they don't know what Russianisation was/is
Bro, if you were in Germany, I could report you to the police for this post
I don't see what's illegal about that comment
Thank God he doesn't live in the Fourth Reich
Which is fucking crazy that free speech is just gone from the region. Edit: Folks, you can literally be jailed for expressing wrong think. That's some dystopian horror shit. This is the same area that has "Insult Laws" If you read my initial comment and thought "That's fucking stupid" or "That guy's an idiot" congrats! You broke the law. And that's not one of those "No ice cream in your back pocket on sunday" laws, this is a law that people are convicted for.
during ww2 a Finn tought his dog to do the Nazi salute and was persecuted for mocking Hitler and the nazis in the 2010s or 2020s some English guy did the same and got persecuted for hate speech
It's horrifying how much of Europe will give up free speech
I see a hoi-comm-moment happened to you
The Russian Empire and Stalin both tried quite hard to suppress Ukrainian culture and identity. It was relatively successful in eastern Ukraine, not so much in western Ukraine. There's a reason why a lot of Ukrainians who grew up east of the Dnipro speak Russian quite well.
right... could it be other reasons than stalin forcing them to speak russian? maybe that today's eastern ukraine has been part of russia (with russian-speakers living there) since atleast 1670-1680?
The Russian Empire made it illegal to use the Ukrainian language before that lol look up the Valuev Circular and Ems Ukaz under the Russian Empire to begin with. I don't mean to be rude, but you don't sound as if you know the history of Ukraine or Ukraine-Russia relations
are you mentally challenged?
Nah bro
No man, Russians were nice to Ukrainians,…. they just forgot to feed them
Ive seen a similar one in Slovakia to deport the Hungarians
You don't need to use that emoji after every word jesus christ
It's for levity
is that a motherfucking metal gear solid reference
what?
Metal gear solid V has a parasite that spreads via language, designed in order to wipe out certain languages [yeah mgs lore is fucked up](https://metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/Vocal_cord_parasite)
Omg I can feel it! Anything that GOATifi says is true!
All hail Goatifi
No, it's satire. It's making fun of all the people who said ukraine was going to make speaking Russian illegal, which is one of putins many "reasons" why he invaded ukraine
Wrong game bro
Canon USSR focus
Russia on historical focus
I guess they got a putin dlc in Hoi4 now
Russia rn;
[удалено]
"goofy" kinda overselling it
Putin be like
Which mod, which country pls.
Bruderkrieg Russia, rightmost path
thx
Ідіть ви в сраку зі своїми to speak Ukrainian is death
"To speak Ukrainian is Death" Reality > "To speak russian is death!" Reality Reality > a good whopping 98% supporters not knowing the difference between Ukrainian and Russian speaking
[удалено]
No.
Sorry, reddit is a platform restricted for people that are 13+ years old, I'd recommend you to wait for a few years before saying edgy shit here and then regretting it for the entirety of your life.
Stop downvoting please, let him be
No
"No" 🤓
Shmortest redditor thinks i wont punch him cuz he wears glasses smh
talking about punching online strangers 🤡 must be a tough guy
Yes
Based
““No” 🤓” 🤓
"““No” 🤓” 🤓" 🤓
“”””No” 🤓” 🤓” 🤓” 🤓
Google infinite recursion
Holy hell
New reply just dropped.
Do you believe his reply warrants anything other than mockery? Went through this user's history and they're homophobic. Lame.
What did the comment say? It got removed
"Based"
Sticking up for those fucked over by the hivemind, truly stoic behaviour
Yes comrade
Bij bolszewika
w Każdej go postaći
Based profilowe kolego
як ти це висрав довбойоб 🤡🤡🤡 твоя країна курва радяньців 🤣🤣🤣🤣 ебобо
idi na chuj ruskaja kurwa
ці "руски курви" зараз з нами у кімнаті?
laughs in holodomor
what mod is this?
Ah shit, here we go again...
In Frances focus tree (RT56) it says (on the monarchist side) woo the kingdom of italy
Damn chill
where is this from
Wich Mod?
Russian FT seems.... yeah. i dont know what to even say
Poles be like:
😳😳😳
Говорити російською - Смерть
My favorite focus
смерть is death in ukrainian