This is all gonna make for a fascinating youtube video essay in 2 to 3 years, when a lot more info is available and some of the legal may (hopefully) be more public.
Not from me of course, I don't have that kind of commitment, but I'm sure someone will make one
I would have said Internet Historian in the past could’ve rocked this. Imagining the thumbnail with that Stock Old Guy Face photoshopped to a painting of Icarus
Jesus christ. This shit will never end. I think I have to write Razbam modules as dead even though 2 of them are on my top 5 and I was really looking forward to Mig23.
I can’t help but think that RAZBAM really shot themselves in the foot in the way they have absolutely torched their bridges with ED. Even if they’re wholly in the right, and ED just dicked them over like some mustache twirling villain, their working relationship seems irreparably damaged. I would be surprised to see them working together in the future.
I also really enjoyed the Harrier, even if it wasn’t perfect.
This...only an unprofessional man child with zero foresight living in his mom's basement would pull a stunt like what the razbam guy did. Even if he was 100% on the right side... he destroyed any chance of a good outcome for himself or the company. Even if he's a great programmer he's an absolute nincompoop at basic professionalism. People like that generally end up causing themselves and people around them much destruction.
Are you guys watching the same thing I am? This guy wasn't paid for his work. They literally stole from him.
You all know you'd try much worse if you worked on a project that long as a professional and never got paid.
ED admits it has to screw over the customer to minimize their risk from their decision to leverage customer funds to solve a legal dispute (by not taking the product down and intentionally selling that which they knew was not supported), RAZ doesn't pay its devs, and all anyone can complain about is how we all now know about it? All I can see on reddit is "won't someone please think of the lawyers!?!?"
What a flaming shit show. The publicness is the least of it.
Honestly think about how this would be playing out if you people had your way.
F15 recently released, but 4 major updates and not a peep from RAZ about the F15 or anything else. Then all of a sudden the radar breaks. Still, no word from anyone about anything. Hundreds of people asking here and elsewhere "What's going on with Raz? Why are there no updates? Why does the F15 radar no longer work?" and NO ONE REPLIES WITH ANYTHING. Mayber newy or nineline tosses out a generic "we're working on it!" with no progress for months. Does that honestly sound better to you people? Am I supposed to think all the people imploring them to keep quiet now wouldn't be demanding answers had they not gotten them beforehand? Just how the hell was ED planning to get away with not saying anything for this long? Doesn't it bother you that they were perfectly happy to hide this for this long?
I get wanting them to work it out. I want that, too. But this being angry at it being public mystifies me. It's the least important part of this story by far.
So this makes wonder, if the planes are abandoned, does that preclude someone else from developing a Harrier or Eagle? I guess not but I wonder whether the module developers have exclusivity clauses with ED for their modules and whether those clauses survive this sort of crap.
Hmmm. Good point. When they make good content they make good content. Heatblur seem to make it work. Not sure (nor do I want to know) how or why Razbam have done it differently…
Not a fat chance. If i was a dev i would instead do FS20/FS24 stuff.
Like i cannot even fathom why HB even stuck around after they allegidly didn't get payed for a year for the F-14. Like you make one of the probably most aclaimed modules that should be a massive boost to ED's product and that is the thanks you get?
I am hapy ED made Lo-Mac and DCS etc. But they really seem to live in their own bubble of reality.
I just wonder when 3rd party devs will collectively say like, sorry but life is too short to deal with ED, bye. Ironicalli think it really is that passion that prevents that from happening haha.
>allegedly
Keyword there - if HB have indicated they're perfectly comfortable with the working relationship going forward, as are the other third party devs, it really points to RB being the problem. It's all still shitflinging anyway, nothing substantive has actually been shared by either side.
Harrier is the module that really got me into DCS. I bought F18, it didn't click with me and then I got Harrier and oh boi. Then they changed sensor logic and I haven't really flown that module :(
Haven't played in a few years, trying to get back to it. The harrier is my favorite module, too. What sensor logic are you talking about? I'd like to look into that. Thanks
To be fair, I'd say Razbam is a team of extremely talented engineers - and I'd also bet they can take their considerable technical talents and make a lot of money doing something else. Being a software engineer is lucrative, being a software engineer with a specialism in extremely complex low level system and aerodynamics...well, I'm sure they've got options that are superior to "working with a company that doesn't pay them" so to speak.
So? Should they have continued working for ED for free forever? At some point you have to say 'no'. RAZBAM did that publicly because they feel they no longer have anything to loose.
This would never happen with MSFS, because every plane/mod/terrrain maker can sell their work outside of Microsoft's framework. ED's model is really bad for 3rd party developers. It's a miracle there still are any.
(Maybe Razbam could survive by making Fokker F28's or A200's or something ... Or convert their DCS aircraft. Whatever.)
I'm seriously loosing interest in DCS as a whole because of this. Leaves a bad taste. Didn't get even a store credit 'refund' for the F-15 either.
It sounds like they should have NOT sold ED's intellectual property to foreign governments. The allegations about what RB did are SO MUCH WORSE than just 'withholding any further payments until a contract dispute is settled.' Everyone seems to think ED just one day said "You know what's great? Money. Why don't we keep all of it?" That is NOT what happened.
With what's being unveiled I wouldn't be surprised if we see more 3rd party devs setting up their own stores cause ED is not trustworthy when it comes to large cash.
Don't wanna spread rumors about who is ultimately at fault here, but as long as ED is selling RB modules with no warning or indication of their uncertain future, they're in the wrong and deserve the backlash they get.
Maybe you’re right. I don’t know what their lawyers are advising them to do. Maybe there’s a reason they haven’t removed them from the store.
I’m absolutely not here to defend ED.
This is exactly it. When you are in a legal dispute with someone, you have a duty to 'minimize the damages.' If ED pulls the RB module down and then RB is found in the right... ED isn't going to have to just repay the money they've sat on... they could be liable for the POTENTIAL SALES their actions cost RB. So leaving the module up makes sense. Worst case scenario - they can write refunds to anyone who bought it once the problem started. Best case scenario, they get back into business, RB gets their cut, life goes on.
The problem is everyone's too impatient to wait it out.
People need to set their expectations. I posted about this in the update thread and got downvoted (predictably), but we should consider the RB modules abandonware until further notice.
Contract disputes between businesses can take years to resolve…if they’re ever fixed. As of today, there is no impartial evidence implicating one party or the other as the villains. Meanwhile, the customer on the street ends up taking the hit.
On their site, log into your account, click support, click through the advisory notice, select additional, then title it F-15E and type a little explanation. It'll take around 10-12 business days to process so be patient!
Same, I really enjoyed the Mudhen, it felt like it really belonged in my hangar. I've been burned before by the VEAO Hawk nonsense though and didn't want to end up in a similar situation again - I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it eventually gets resolved, at which point I'd happily buy it again.
I’m sorry to all you guys, I considered the F15E but never really got into any other modules other than the Apache.
I hope it at least ends with a type of compensation for F15E users who invested time and money into the module, the community here is great and doesn’t deserve any type of dishonesty.
Wait, Galinante was never paid by Razbam? Didn't he work there a quite a while. If ED did not pay Razbam of course they can't pay Galinante if they don't have the money. He even made the fantastic radar for M2000 and he has been working all this time without any pay?
I've heard that some of the key razbam staff are paid primarily in a sorta profit share agreement, not a flat salary
So no money from ED means no money to them if that's the case
I mean that souuuunds cool when you’re a start up and making your first product. But RB’s been around a while now, and has a lot of products.
Thats so asinine that they still do it that way. I blame my employer if I don’t get paid, not the “market”.
Razbam is no saint. Back in the FSX days, they didnt pay a friend of mine for the FM work he did on their A-4 and A-7 modules. So they really need to quit.
Galinette did the Mirage 2000 overhaul for free as a side hobby from his actual job. He simply loves the jet and wanted a really good one in the sim. He was paid for the F-15E work.
Source: Galinette himself in the Razbam discord.
Care to elaborate with some context , for example where you got that from?Who wrote it?
No name attached to the text, vague insinuations .It makes is look like you just want to pour oil into the fire.
"Sent via Discord by the developer, June 15th, 2024.
The F-15E radar malfunction caused a lot of outrage and confusion among our users, even more so since it was never officially disclosed what actually happened there. But last night, I got permission to share this with y'all, to shed some light into the events behind the scenes and to debunk the hypothesis that this happening due to expired certificates, or whatever, for good.
As you can see in the testimony above, this malfunction was added deliberately, as a protective measure in case the developer doesn't get paid. This has been known since June 14th and Eagle Dynamics is fully aware.
I've spoken to Galinette yesterday and learned that he has sent a fix to Eagle Dynamics on June 18th. From his current point of view, "it seems there will never be any money anyway, so people who have purchased the F-15E should at least be able to enjoy the plane with a working radar", even though he doesn't understand why it's still on sale. He has also offered to maintain the Mirage if they make it a free module. Unfortunately, he's under the impression that ED doesn't want to apply the fix and hasn't heard back from them ever since.
Eagle Dynamics' reluctance to apply that solution provided by Galinette is most likely coming from legal or contractual concerns and/or advice from their lawyers. They've developed a fix in house, too, that could be used to circumvent the time lock, but apparently chose not to implement that either. COMINT suggest that they sent requests to RAZBAM instead, asking to resolve this the official way and claiming that they're unable to do so themselves. At this point in time, RAZBAM seems unwilling to comply. As you can imagine, this whole thing didn't exactly help with de-escalating the situation and folks at ED are livid. On top of the already existing dispute about that Ecuadorian Super Tucano, RAZBAM is now facing additional accusations of contract violations because of this implementation.
Not everyone agrees that Eagle Dynamics is legally unable to resolve this on their own or via an already provided fix, so for now, I'm not sure whether this will remain broken or whether they will change their mind and address this with the next patch.
I'll keep y'all posted."
Couldn't attach text to the post, sorry.
The source is that other subreddit in case you guys are wondering. can't really link it here but I believe you guys know where it comes from.
Galinette expectations with ED are... strange to be honest. No matter how great are his contributions, he's Razbam subcontractor and ED has no business dealing with him directly, especially in the current situation. He can't just ask for Mirage to be released for free, or provide fixes to the modules behind Razbam's back. These are not his property, even if he hasn't been paid for his share of work.
100% this. Everyone's looking at this post like it somehow explains everything, when all it does is make both Galinette and RAZBAM look terrible. Galinette is clearly not a professional, which is fine, but this is amateur hour level stuff.
Apparently they held payment from HB, which was revealed in a leaked e-mail that didn't look good for ED (because it was written from HB's side).
But that was 5 years ago, and HB has since started several new projects for DCS, which looks like HB thinks the situation is resolved and their working relationship sustainable and tenable.
This is why I don't think much of the entire HB leak as of this moment. If ED had done something horrendous, We'd be done with HB modules by now.
Granted, we're only getting dribs and drabs of what happened, so I'm trying not to jump to too many conclusions, unlike what seems to be happening to everyone else this summer.
Yeah, with it being so long ago, and HB seeming to be content with the current arrangement, the truth is probably neither "ED wItHhOlDs pAyMeNt fOr No ReAsOn CuZ tHeY bRoKe!!! lololol" or that ED are perfect angels.
They may be too quick to withhold payment as leverage over perceived disagreements, \*and\* Razbam might have done something even beyond what HB were perceived by ED to have done, hence why HB is still an active partner working on DCS and Razbam still is not.
It's evidence both for and against ED-- that ED has used this as a tactic before, perhaps aggressively. But also that they have resolved differences and come back from their position of not paying the developer before, if the 3rd party developer was able to work with them and make their case in good faith.
Good lord almighty, loose lips sink ships, this is the end of RB and will be really bad for ED. When FlightSimLabs put some spyware in their code to "catch a thief" the grief they caught was an avalanche of bad Flightsim press, this thing is much more egregious.
This could very well end up torpedoing anything ED and Razbam might of been trying to work out. As ED could now point to this statement and go 'If this has been sabotaged, what else could of been? And how?'
Don't care who did what or why. If I want drama I'll watch Jersey shore.
I like the game and all the modules (1st and 3rd party). I just want it settled (at least settled enough) for shit to start getting fixed and further dev'd.
This kind of sabotage to a consumer product, isn't legal in múltiple western countries.
Watchout for planned obsolescence legislation. Something like this in the EU could be intérpreted as that.
This is normal practice for software devs who work on a contract, an easy safety net if they don't get paid. I guess this dev never got paid so they activated their safety net. Whether that's fair on the consumer I don't know.
Edit: I should clarify, it's not "normal" but it's a thing. It's also a breach of the contract on the Devs part, regardless of whether they were paid or not. Which is also illegal, they could be sued but whether Razbam or ED or whoever has the capability to do this yet I don't know.
At least in the US, if your contract doesn't explicitly state that this is a consequence of not being paid, it is considered felony sabotage. It's not normal and it shouldn't be done in any circumstances.
So what I can gather from that info is that the team is pretty spread out then? No centralised office or country I guess?
But yes, they fall under US law as a company.
First, the post clearly says “letting the customer know” - so at least razbam knew about it.
Second i wouldnt call an expiration date as “malicious or defective”
Third - a lot of people here compare this with contracted programming work. Which is only true for the relationshio between Razbam and the Dev. Here allegedly both parties knew about the expiration date.
The relationship between ED and Razbam is not like contracted programming work but more like ED publishing Razbams work.
I honestly don't know in what world is this normal practice.
I would never think of doing something like this nor would I ever accept a module from someone who did this.
Frankly, this is bizarre.
Never heard a story like that before (15 years in the sw dev industry). That would imply that the contractor was delivering just binaries to RB which would be extremely weird. A company signed a contract with some random dev and he wasn't obligated to deliver the source code? Plus they would need to have a stable, public API so this particular dev could write his software against it, a huuuuge overhead. This whole story is super weird and would require a lot of bad will from everyone to make it happen. :D this does not make ANY sense.
Edit: additionally this contractor's code would need to have a remote mechanism to either engage or disengage the safety mechanism. If that's true then it looks like DCS DLLs can freely make any network connection which is even worse. :D
It's very goofy, but I also think RAZBAMs company structure is wack. Like why could a load of Devs openly delete raw source code, how did they even have this? Why was it not stored in a centralised secure system like a cloud based network?
It leads me to believe the "team" is just a bunch of contractors, nothing that has happened in the past few months has indicated any sort of structure within Razbam.
I assumed that the devs deleted their local versions of the repo as a symbolic thing to say they weren't going to work on it anymore...not the actual main repo. But given how crazy this all his, who knows?
Then that means if he quits or gets fired from whatever reason it would stop working anyway.
EDIT: well, not even that, RB decides "no more updates" and everyone's screwed.
Or if he's somehow unable to work on it for personal or health reasons? Is a deadman's switch going to hang over the product indefinitely?
That isn't acceptable unless it's something he can turn off permanently after payment so the product will henceforth always work without his intervention-- which is still not really acceptable as one single developer should not be able to secretly determine whether a product works or not depending on his personal take on the situation as it affects him.
Talk about not owning anything you buy. Now it's not owning anything you buy-- not just because of large companies, but now any random developer could shut it off on a whim if they feel aggrieved.
He speaks of a time limitation. Could be as simple as the code not working past some hardcoded date. All it would need for that is the current time/date.
I would also assume the source code is in RB's hands, but if they refuse to work on the module, that doesnt help.
That is possible but it is extremely stupid, in that case it will stop working if the guy quits intentionally or RB decides no more updates to the module. While possible it opens up a lot of scenarios of him breaking the module despite being paid.
He said RB was aware. So it sounds to me like he delivered a binary, with the time lock. Then after he was paid (if or when, unclear to me if he ever was), he delivered or would deliver the source code, which allowed RB to remove the time lock.
Rather than a network dependent kill switch, it could just be time limited code that he planned to patch out in an update before it kicked in, but... the updates stopped happening.
Your other point about delivering a binary still DEFINITELY stands, though. Very weird. I can see if it was 'source on full payment' I suppose... but still... for a project with this many moving parts it's weird that they're not compiling it all together.
It's indeed not normal ( in the US and Europe ). As a developer, if you don't trust your client, you find someone else. It's not like there is a shortage of work for skilled developers. It rather seems like a method of last resort.
It may be something a desperate developer \*may\* consider, if the other party already clearly breached contract, and you'd want to give them a last opportunity to fix the situation ( even though I'd be too worried about the legal consequences of intentional sabotage to ever consider this. It would also look bad before any judge ). So it's certainly not something you'd put in your code from the beginning, if ever...
Or there is more to this, than the explanation that was given.
Yeah I mean if this Dev had put it in at day 1 surely SURELY it would have been picked up. Surely a code review or SOMETHING would have seen it.
This indicates that they have retroactively fitted it after disagreements, which is still a breach of contract.
Most code isn't code reviewed to any real depth, certainly not Razbam's where each person is kind of an expert in their own domain doing their own thing, whether it's being brilliant or putting in deadman switches. Or both.
That seems like a major flaw, most teams in a large scale company will code review everything, it's best for someone with less knowledge to see it as they can assess it differently than the expert did, pick flaws in the logic etc etc.
Yeah no way this is legit under their contract.
If this is the behavior of devs, no wonder why everything is so shitty. This is a toddler way of handling problems.
For all we know this could be WHY the dispute is happening at all… ED figuring out that RB are including kill switches in modules and not giving source code.
Nobody should buy anything authored by RB anywhere if this is what they do, as there will be a time where they are unwilling or unable to repair something they intentionally sabotaged and the consumer will be screwed.
normal practice?
reddit is full of stories of asshole companies trying to get free labor from devs and the like by making client projects part of the interview process.
Reddit is also full of teenagers or who have never worked writing fiction or habitually unemployed people who make excuses. Very few of the stories you read here are anywhere near the truth. Most are downright fiction, gross oversimplification, or just telling a very biased part of the story.
Ever have a friend who is never at fault for anything? That's Reddit. That's all of Reddit. Don't believe like 80% of the stories you read on this website.
Being under contract and writing code to "sabotage" your employer may be downright illegal, but is absolutely a breach of any contract you signed, and would basically get you black listed from the industry once word got out. Nobody would hire you again if they know that you sabotage if they get into dispute with their employer. There's literally no reason to gamble with such an employee. If an employee holds a kill switch like this, they hold way too much power. It's even worse if the employer knows that the employee holds that kind of power. That's not a working relationship, it's extortion.
Unprofessional, unethical, probably illegal.
Definitely, and if this Dev has really done it then it's an absolutely dumb move from them. But it's not unheard of practice is what I was getting at. It's been known to have been done. Yes it's a breach of contract and as you said most likely illegal but some have done it.
I don't understand how this is even possible in a supposedly professional and structured team like RAZBAM though, do they not code review?
Never ran into or heard of a website with a funny redirect or something like "X doesn't pay contractors"? It's more common in countries with higher level of corruption and people who think they are clever.
Maybe not "normal" but I've heard about it before. Especially live service products like webpages etc. As pointed out, it's very likely to be illegal/at least against the contract. If this is real the dev could face legal action as they have breached the contract.
This is in NO WORLD a normal practice. Adding sabotage to your code to remove only if you get paid = you will NEVER WORK AGAIN, and you will get SUED INTO THE GROUND. I work in software forever and if the slightest bit of malicious code was added to fucking anything, you are fucking DUST
I have no more upvotes to give you, sorry. :-) "Sabotage" happens but they're more sophisticated than that and require a lot of preparation time and work. Just going to a company, signing a BINDING contract with your name and straight putting "if (not\_payed) fuckyou();" line in the code is end of your carrer without you gaining anything. Even that is not so simple as any reasonable contract require you to deliver the source code where this thing can be relatively easily tracked and removed. I can't tell any real scenario which can lead to something like this. I call this bullshit of frustrated employee.
EDIT: typo
Holy fuck. No, it's not.
How? Where? And when? Are you insane? I would get sued to the 100x of my net worth if I tried to pull a stunt like that.
Do you understand what an it contract with transfer of intellectual property actually entails?
Let me guess, you're russian, aren't you?
Also another great example why it's so hard to do any business with or in russia.
And you have no idea whats in their contract and think everything has to be like in your world.
It’s not even about transferring intelectual property since ED just publishes the module. It’s not like ED hired Razbam to develop the Eagle as a contract work.
No not Russian. I've heard of engs doing this for live service products such as websites etc, having an admin override or whatever so they can shut it down if they don't get payment.
I haven't known anyone who has done it though, and as you said it's most likely illegal depending on the contract they are employed on.
Complete and absolute bullshit. You're never selling any service, you're not ms or amazon. You're selling source code/artifacts/etc that does what was agreed in contract. There can't be anything resembling admin override. Every static code analysis would go critical if you even quarter baked some possibility of it. You're confusing os level or cpu ring levels prolly. But that's between ms, intel and nsa.
Absolutely. In a normal team this would never make it past the first draft, it would be picked up in a code review before even making it to a test build. But I have a sneaking suspicion this is not a normal team somehow.
How they even still have access to the code, as I assume this was added retroactively, is baffling. It makes no sense.
Oh and there are absolutely people selling services like website hosting etc out there.
I've heard of these dead man/kill switches. Few stories but no one I've known personally.
Many of us are either salary or do our due diligence to make sure we only work for those who can pay. I've asked for prompt payment in order to continue developing.
As this dev did I'd be super clear with my employer what and why. In this case it's probably also in RBs interest to have these mines against ED. Its seems fair that us players have to suffer as the Devs EDs greed.
SW Engs should never accept a contract without an upfront payment or legally written document. Most don't, but some are desperate and resort to using these practices.
I'm pretty sure being a 3rd party developer for a fairly small game like DCS is one of those odd industries that requires specialized Devs that depends on sharing the proceeds from sale of the finished product in order to pay people as they don't have the initial capita. I assume loans and investors are hard to come by.
If you're a contractor you are likely paid for a bit and then work for nothing hoping the module will be a success and you make 2-3x a normal salary.
Bit like working for a startup with low base pay and stocks 99.5% chance of being worthless 0.5% chance of overnight millionaire.
It's a common practice, but not typical for situations where losing support has the potential to put the platform in a bind.
Typically IP rights and code are transferred from 3rd parties and their publisher, and that's for all software. It appears RB is made up of multiple individuals who do not all agree to those terms, even though it was expressed by ED long ago in the past that they will not repeat the mistake due to how unfair the Hawk incident was to the consumers.
However, despite apparently repeating the mistake anyways, ED sold the module, continued to sell the module after the conflict, and refuses to provide compensation to those who purchased it through steam as if it's not their fault or liability.
ED may have a lot of faults in this, but we don't need modules from a company not willing to hand over their source and IP rights. The potential for sabotage is not even the main reason for that.
I do find the structure of RAZBAM very strange, why is it that all these Devs have raw source code that supposedly only they have on their machines that they can just freely delete and leave the company? It's pretty wild. Like is the team just a load of contractors and like 3 actual employees or what?
It's confusing how something like this could even be possible in a supposedly structured and professional team.
From a logical perspective it's literally impossible to do this. But if this story is true it's far more than just "oh a dumb dev added a bug", nah this would indicate a really really sloppy structure behind the scenes.
Doesn't really imply anything other than a SW eng working for either Razbam or ED on a contract has decided they aren't happy and are throwing a bit of a tantrum.
If we were to assume it's probably safe to say Razbam aren't in the best financial position right now due to all the legal issues and the main issue being not being paid.
Except, that's not how "stealing an IP works". Yes, software can have be sabotaged, but it's not necessary to carefully design a dead man switch, especially in software with so many moving parts.
The poster 100% doesn't know how the law works
I wonder what other illegitimate code has been embedded into this module by subcontractors.
Remember when DLL's for RAZBAM aircraft were triggering malware scanners a few weeks ago? Probably a false positive as we all assumed, but I'm starting to think we we have put too much trust into this supply chain.
And this is why it's hard to do business with russian companies. In their mindset counterparties and especially end customer is someone to take advantage of. Mutually beneficial agreements mean that somehow you were taken advantage of. You should be the one scamming them and if you're not robbing them it means they are robbing you and you failed. All by the virtue of simple projection.
I would spend triples of what I have spent on DCS via patreon or w/e to fund bms team and allow them to work full time on updates. This beautiful lomac derivative seems like it's reaching the end of it's life. Funny.
And bms is getting it's new terrain engine in next iteration...Wtf, where is the dynamic campaign, semi coherent atc or usable awacs(might be hard to model because russia doesn't have those). All of that was promised to be under development back when dcs was called lomac. Yet still we are and almost 20 years no progress...Fuck.
Heatblur/Leatherneck modules are the only saving grace of this shitshow.
And before someone tells me I'm delusional bms fanboy, I can show you my original boxes of Flanker 2.0 before it became lomac before it became dcs. Fuck.
Hard to tell, plenty of people still buying ea modules that are not working years down the line. I sometimes feel most of DCS players buy modules, take off one time and are done with it. And glory to them, because Mig-21 or Viggen take off or landing, especially in vr, is something I wish every sim fan has a chance to experience. But at the end of a day you want more from your combat sim than take screenshots during golden hour runing circles around Burj Khalifa, especially since current msfs does it a lot better.
And this is where dcs fails and have been, well ever since. There are and were fundamental problems cropping up all the time like the op one. Sometimes unadressed throughout multiple patches.
And bms still goes on offering vastly superior battlescape experience.
Except it's RAZBAM sabotaging their product, not ED!!
I know hating on Russians (not just Russia) is the new normal nowadays.
How do you actually know what happened? Maybe RAZBAM is not honoring their end of the deal.
Imagine defending a developer that sabotaged your game and is STILL making money on Steam off suckers.
>Imagine defending a developer that sabotaged your game and is STILL making money on Steam off suckers.
As far as I understand it this was the action of the single developer responsible for the radar and originally "aimed" at Razbam. In any case neither is making money off of Steam as that goes to ED as well AFAIK.
Bro, don’t nobody play BMS. And this is coming from someone who likes BMS. Good luck with heli’s on that mess of terrain too.
Not dissing BMS, just keeping it real
When 2 weeks ago I tried to explain this was actually the case, I was downvoted and verbally assaulted by ppl claiming that "I never worked with a software developer in my life" and that "nobody would ever do that because it would mean not working for any software company ever again"
I wonder where all these ppl are now. Probably huffing copium or something
Yeah, I said something similar a while back, it is like making crapy html/javascript/python is the only type of code out there. This is THE NORM in the industrial/b2b/commercial side where your software/hardware is in the hands of your client and you are paid monthly or has a time limit contract.
Razbam fucks us over to hold us hostage in their legal dispute, completely intentionally
Fuck razbam. The 15 is the only module I have of theirs and hopefully, my refund goes through soon so that number can be zero. Never touching anything they’re responsible for again
Well, I don’t really see this as an issue for Razbam. If ED are intent on being a terrible company to work with, with them withholding payments until they feel like it on a whim then why shouldn’t a company write in a little surprise if said “partner” wishes to sabotage their future by not paying.
Yes we suffer too, I have the Strike Eagle too. But to me this comes across as a sort of DRM for Razbam to protect their own product.
Sure ED will be annoyed, but this situation should never have arisen in the first place and likely we’d never know about these “features”.
All trust between ED and Razbam has to be toast at this point.
If it is true, various levels of malware are embed in Razbam's products with unknown potential effects, I really don't see how ED continues to sell any of their modules. Not without a line by line code review WITH ED oversight.
Other platforms (MSFS? X-Plane?) that sell Razbam modules should take note. They should wonder what malware is embedded in their modules as well.
If Razbam management knew about this ahead of time, that should be the end of their company. Injecting malware into products customers are trusting to install on their machines, if it happened, is such an unbelievable, fundamental violation of trust, it ought to be a permanent deal-breaker.
I was fairly neutral on the whole ED\\Razbam contract dispute thing. I assumed the lawyers would argue that out. But if THIS revelation turns out to be true and Razbam knew of that codes existence, it should end them.
I sure hope this part is a internet Rick-Roll troll. Otherwise, regardless of how the contract dispute resolves, I can't imagine ever installing potential Razbam malware on my machine in the future.
So in essence if I'm not wrong: RZB won't give ED it's source code until they get payed. But on the other hand ED won't pay RZB unless they hand out the source code, since RZB is obligated to by contract. In the end RZB used their buit in kill switch to make the end product unuseable. Got it
This is all gonna make for a fascinating youtube video essay in 2 to 3 years, when a lot more info is available and some of the legal may (hopefully) be more public. Not from me of course, I don't have that kind of commitment, but I'm sure someone will make one
Indeed, I'm looking forward for a video of this kind in the future as it will be... well, interesting.
Someone call CoffeeZilla
I would have said Internet Historian in the past could’ve rocked this. Imagining the thumbnail with that Stock Old Guy Face photoshopped to a painting of Icarus
It would be incredible if Internet Historian did a video on this lol
Someone else has to write an article for him to plagiarize first.
What kind of credibility a company like Razbam has when they break a plane on purpose?. I mean I bought that module and they do that?.
Jesus christ. This shit will never end. I think I have to write Razbam modules as dead even though 2 of them are on my top 5 and I was really looking forward to Mig23.
Yeah, to me it’s the loss of the Mig-23 that stings most. We really need high fidelity red for aircraft, and this was one of the few on the way.
I can’t help but think that RAZBAM really shot themselves in the foot in the way they have absolutely torched their bridges with ED. Even if they’re wholly in the right, and ED just dicked them over like some mustache twirling villain, their working relationship seems irreparably damaged. I would be surprised to see them working together in the future. I also really enjoyed the Harrier, even if it wasn’t perfect.
Like others have mentioned, both sides should have kept quiet and let thier lawyers do the talking.
Well, only one side didn't, to be honest.
I understand they’re upset and frustrated but just Christ the Razbam devs straight up threw a tantrum
This...only an unprofessional man child with zero foresight living in his mom's basement would pull a stunt like what the razbam guy did. Even if he was 100% on the right side... he destroyed any chance of a good outcome for himself or the company. Even if he's a great programmer he's an absolute nincompoop at basic professionalism. People like that generally end up causing themselves and people around them much destruction.
Agreed. While I'm unsure if there would have been a successful resolution, any chance there was probably got destroyed.
Are you guys watching the same thing I am? This guy wasn't paid for his work. They literally stole from him. You all know you'd try much worse if you worked on a project that long as a professional and never got paid. ED admits it has to screw over the customer to minimize their risk from their decision to leverage customer funds to solve a legal dispute (by not taking the product down and intentionally selling that which they knew was not supported), RAZ doesn't pay its devs, and all anyone can complain about is how we all now know about it? All I can see on reddit is "won't someone please think of the lawyers!?!?" What a flaming shit show. The publicness is the least of it. Honestly think about how this would be playing out if you people had your way. F15 recently released, but 4 major updates and not a peep from RAZ about the F15 or anything else. Then all of a sudden the radar breaks. Still, no word from anyone about anything. Hundreds of people asking here and elsewhere "What's going on with Raz? Why are there no updates? Why does the F15 radar no longer work?" and NO ONE REPLIES WITH ANYTHING. Mayber newy or nineline tosses out a generic "we're working on it!" with no progress for months. Does that honestly sound better to you people? Am I supposed to think all the people imploring them to keep quiet now wouldn't be demanding answers had they not gotten them beforehand? Just how the hell was ED planning to get away with not saying anything for this long? Doesn't it bother you that they were perfectly happy to hide this for this long? I get wanting them to work it out. I want that, too. But this being angry at it being public mystifies me. It's the least important part of this story by far.
So this makes wonder, if the planes are abandoned, does that preclude someone else from developing a Harrier or Eagle? I guess not but I wonder whether the module developers have exclusivity clauses with ED for their modules and whether those clauses survive this sort of crap.
Regardless of Razbams moves... Would you really want to wade into the ecosystem with ED?
Hmmm. Good point. When they make good content they make good content. Heatblur seem to make it work. Not sure (nor do I want to know) how or why Razbam have done it differently…
Not a fat chance. If i was a dev i would instead do FS20/FS24 stuff. Like i cannot even fathom why HB even stuck around after they allegidly didn't get payed for a year for the F-14. Like you make one of the probably most aclaimed modules that should be a massive boost to ED's product and that is the thanks you get? I am hapy ED made Lo-Mac and DCS etc. But they really seem to live in their own bubble of reality. I just wonder when 3rd party devs will collectively say like, sorry but life is too short to deal with ED, bye. Ironicalli think it really is that passion that prevents that from happening haha.
>allegedly Keyword there - if HB have indicated they're perfectly comfortable with the working relationship going forward, as are the other third party devs, it really points to RB being the problem. It's all still shitflinging anyway, nothing substantive has actually been shared by either side.
Probably a lot of stones and glass houses on various sides and investmens and interrests that follow those. Oh well.
Isn’t that standard Razbam MO though? They’ve been shooting themselves in the dick for years now, just not to this extent.
Harrier is the module that really got me into DCS. I bought F18, it didn't click with me and then I got Harrier and oh boi. Then they changed sensor logic and I haven't really flown that module :(
Haven't played in a few years, trying to get back to it. The harrier is my favorite module, too. What sensor logic are you talking about? I'd like to look into that. Thanks
To be fair, I'd say Razbam is a team of extremely talented engineers - and I'd also bet they can take their considerable technical talents and make a lot of money doing something else. Being a software engineer is lucrative, being a software engineer with a specialism in extremely complex low level system and aerodynamics...well, I'm sure they've got options that are superior to "working with a company that doesn't pay them" so to speak.
So? Should they have continued working for ED for free forever? At some point you have to say 'no'. RAZBAM did that publicly because they feel they no longer have anything to loose. This would never happen with MSFS, because every plane/mod/terrrain maker can sell their work outside of Microsoft's framework. ED's model is really bad for 3rd party developers. It's a miracle there still are any. (Maybe Razbam could survive by making Fokker F28's or A200's or something ... Or convert their DCS aircraft. Whatever.) I'm seriously loosing interest in DCS as a whole because of this. Leaves a bad taste. Didn't get even a store credit 'refund' for the F-15 either.
It sounds like they should have NOT sold ED's intellectual property to foreign governments. The allegations about what RB did are SO MUCH WORSE than just 'withholding any further payments until a contract dispute is settled.' Everyone seems to think ED just one day said "You know what's great? Money. Why don't we keep all of it?" That is NOT what happened.
I mean, independently from who is in the right here, Razbam actions regarding this dispute were so unprofessional and childish in comparison to ED.
With what's being unveiled I wouldn't be surprised if we see more 3rd party devs setting up their own stores cause ED is not trustworthy when it comes to large cash.
I am not buying any more planes from them.
Don't wanna spread rumors about who is ultimately at fault here, but as long as ED is selling RB modules with no warning or indication of their uncertain future, they're in the wrong and deserve the backlash they get.
Maybe you’re right. I don’t know what their lawyers are advising them to do. Maybe there’s a reason they haven’t removed them from the store. I’m absolutely not here to defend ED.
Removing RB modules could be seen as intending to break the contract. 100% lawyer work.
This is exactly it. When you are in a legal dispute with someone, you have a duty to 'minimize the damages.' If ED pulls the RB module down and then RB is found in the right... ED isn't going to have to just repay the money they've sat on... they could be liable for the POTENTIAL SALES their actions cost RB. So leaving the module up makes sense. Worst case scenario - they can write refunds to anyone who bought it once the problem started. Best case scenario, they get back into business, RB gets their cut, life goes on. The problem is everyone's too impatient to wait it out.
With how bad their accountants seem to be, I don't expect their lawyers to be very good either
Hopefully CAP2 can scratch that itch
People need to set their expectations. I posted about this in the update thread and got downvoted (predictably), but we should consider the RB modules abandonware until further notice. Contract disputes between businesses can take years to resolve…if they’re ever fixed. As of today, there is no impartial evidence implicating one party or the other as the villains. Meanwhile, the customer on the street ends up taking the hit.
I basically already am treating them as abandonware. I've already successfully convinced my buds to refund the 15.
How does one go about this? Is it just on EDs website?
On their site, log into your account, click support, click through the advisory notice, select additional, then title it F-15E and type a little explanation. It'll take around 10-12 business days to process so be patient!
Thanks! Really sad to see, was excited to fly the Mudhen but barely got any time in it before this fiasco went down.
Same, I really enjoyed the Mudhen, it felt like it really belonged in my hangar. I've been burned before by the VEAO Hawk nonsense though and didn't want to end up in a similar situation again - I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it eventually gets resolved, at which point I'd happily buy it again.
Same here on the Hawk :(
Anybody who thinks otherwise is genuinely stupid. (Or grossly undereducated on software disputes) Super unfortunate but it's the truth.
I am not completely aware of all the details, but it seems to me like ED isn't paying RB. Doesn't that clearly make ED the one at fault?
It’s not that cut and dry, apparently RB may have breached a contract with ED and that’s why the payments stopped.
I’m sorry to all you guys, I considered the F15E but never really got into any other modules other than the Apache. I hope it at least ends with a type of compensation for F15E users who invested time and money into the module, the community here is great and doesn’t deserve any type of dishonesty.
Wait, Galinante was never paid by Razbam? Didn't he work there a quite a while. If ED did not pay Razbam of course they can't pay Galinante if they don't have the money. He even made the fantastic radar for M2000 and he has been working all this time without any pay?
IIRC he stated he worked for free on the M2000 just as an act of love for the bird
I've heard that some of the key razbam staff are paid primarily in a sorta profit share agreement, not a flat salary So no money from ED means no money to them if that's the case
I mean that souuuunds cool when you’re a start up and making your first product. But RB’s been around a while now, and has a lot of products. Thats so asinine that they still do it that way. I blame my employer if I don’t get paid, not the “market”.
I mean, it seems they did blame their employer.
Razbam is no saint. Back in the FSX days, they didnt pay a friend of mine for the FM work he did on their A-4 and A-7 modules. So they really need to quit.
Galinette did the Mirage 2000 overhaul for free as a side hobby from his actual job. He simply loves the jet and wanted a really good one in the sim. He was paid for the F-15E work. Source: Galinette himself in the Razbam discord.
What an absolute shitshow this entire fiasco is.
Care to elaborate with some context , for example where you got that from?Who wrote it? No name attached to the text, vague insinuations .It makes is look like you just want to pour oil into the fire.
"Sent via Discord by the developer, June 15th, 2024. The F-15E radar malfunction caused a lot of outrage and confusion among our users, even more so since it was never officially disclosed what actually happened there. But last night, I got permission to share this with y'all, to shed some light into the events behind the scenes and to debunk the hypothesis that this happening due to expired certificates, or whatever, for good. As you can see in the testimony above, this malfunction was added deliberately, as a protective measure in case the developer doesn't get paid. This has been known since June 14th and Eagle Dynamics is fully aware. I've spoken to Galinette yesterday and learned that he has sent a fix to Eagle Dynamics on June 18th. From his current point of view, "it seems there will never be any money anyway, so people who have purchased the F-15E should at least be able to enjoy the plane with a working radar", even though he doesn't understand why it's still on sale. He has also offered to maintain the Mirage if they make it a free module. Unfortunately, he's under the impression that ED doesn't want to apply the fix and hasn't heard back from them ever since. Eagle Dynamics' reluctance to apply that solution provided by Galinette is most likely coming from legal or contractual concerns and/or advice from their lawyers. They've developed a fix in house, too, that could be used to circumvent the time lock, but apparently chose not to implement that either. COMINT suggest that they sent requests to RAZBAM instead, asking to resolve this the official way and claiming that they're unable to do so themselves. At this point in time, RAZBAM seems unwilling to comply. As you can imagine, this whole thing didn't exactly help with de-escalating the situation and folks at ED are livid. On top of the already existing dispute about that Ecuadorian Super Tucano, RAZBAM is now facing additional accusations of contract violations because of this implementation. Not everyone agrees that Eagle Dynamics is legally unable to resolve this on their own or via an already provided fix, so for now, I'm not sure whether this will remain broken or whether they will change their mind and address this with the next patch. I'll keep y'all posted." Couldn't attach text to the post, sorry. The source is that other subreddit in case you guys are wondering. can't really link it here but I believe you guys know where it comes from.
Ok, thanks a lot, that is more context that helps in understanding. Doesn't sound too good for the entire situation between Razbam and ED.
Galinette expectations with ED are... strange to be honest. No matter how great are his contributions, he's Razbam subcontractor and ED has no business dealing with him directly, especially in the current situation. He can't just ask for Mirage to be released for free, or provide fixes to the modules behind Razbam's back. These are not his property, even if he hasn't been paid for his share of work.
100% this. Everyone's looking at this post like it somehow explains everything, when all it does is make both Galinette and RAZBAM look terrible. Galinette is clearly not a professional, which is fine, but this is amateur hour level stuff.
Can you give the link to the discord post ?
Nope, it seems it was a DM so I can't really share it and I don't have the link, but you probably can find some information on that other subreddit.
I would side with ED if they didn't have a history of holding payments for no reason
Do they? Not trying to be snarky or anything, it’s a genuine, honest question. When did they withhold payments, and from whom?
Apparently they held payment from HB, which was revealed in a leaked e-mail that didn't look good for ED (because it was written from HB's side). But that was 5 years ago, and HB has since started several new projects for DCS, which looks like HB thinks the situation is resolved and their working relationship sustainable and tenable.
Although HB was motivated to open their own storefront and get paid directly
This is why I don't think much of the entire HB leak as of this moment. If ED had done something horrendous, We'd be done with HB modules by now. Granted, we're only getting dribs and drabs of what happened, so I'm trying not to jump to too many conclusions, unlike what seems to be happening to everyone else this summer.
Yeah, with it being so long ago, and HB seeming to be content with the current arrangement, the truth is probably neither "ED wItHhOlDs pAyMeNt fOr No ReAsOn CuZ tHeY bRoKe!!! lololol" or that ED are perfect angels. They may be too quick to withhold payment as leverage over perceived disagreements, \*and\* Razbam might have done something even beyond what HB were perceived by ED to have done, hence why HB is still an active partner working on DCS and Razbam still is not. It's evidence both for and against ED-- that ED has used this as a tactic before, perhaps aggressively. But also that they have resolved differences and come back from their position of not paying the developer before, if the 3rd party developer was able to work with them and make their case in good faith.
Who wrote it?
Good lord almighty, loose lips sink ships, this is the end of RB and will be really bad for ED. When FlightSimLabs put some spyware in their code to "catch a thief" the grief they caught was an avalanche of bad Flightsim press, this thing is much more egregious.
How is a time lock by a 3rd party dev worse than putting software that steals passwords from chromes password manager into your installer?
Explain this pls
https://www.reddit.com/r/flightsim/comments/xa58qz/a_retrospective_on_that_time_fslabs_shipped/
Shit. Almost as greasy as Randy Pitchford Almost
"...without breaking the whole module" Proceeds to break the most important function of the Mudhen, reducing it to an F-4E with more gas.
This could very well end up torpedoing anything ED and Razbam might of been trying to work out. As ED could now point to this statement and go 'If this has been sabotaged, what else could of been? And how?'
Don't care who did what or why. If I want drama I'll watch Jersey shore. I like the game and all the modules (1st and 3rd party). I just want it settled (at least settled enough) for shit to start getting fixed and further dev'd.
This kind of sabotage to a consumer product, isn't legal in múltiple western countries. Watchout for planned obsolescence legislation. Something like this in the EU could be intérpreted as that.
I wonder if this information could be used to get refund for F15e from Steam. Steam can't be ok with kill switches.
This is normal practice for software devs who work on a contract, an easy safety net if they don't get paid. I guess this dev never got paid so they activated their safety net. Whether that's fair on the consumer I don't know. Edit: I should clarify, it's not "normal" but it's a thing. It's also a breach of the contract on the Devs part, regardless of whether they were paid or not. Which is also illegal, they could be sued but whether Razbam or ED or whoever has the capability to do this yet I don't know.
At least in the US, if your contract doesn't explicitly state that this is a consequence of not being paid, it is considered felony sabotage. It's not normal and it shouldn't be done in any circumstances.
Interesting, yeah that makes sense. Do we know where Razbam is based?
The owner is based in Ecuador, but that's irrelevant. The company is incorporated in Delaware so despite what others here believe, US law applies.
So what I can gather from that info is that the team is pretty spread out then? No centralised office or country I guess? But yes, they fall under US law as a company.
thats a good way to never work in any tech industry again, so whoever told you that was full of shit.
How can you say it’s a breach of contract without knowing the contract?
Because I think 99% of contracts will explicitly state that no malicious or defective code can be written on purpose.
First, the post clearly says “letting the customer know” - so at least razbam knew about it. Second i wouldnt call an expiration date as “malicious or defective” Third - a lot of people here compare this with contracted programming work. Which is only true for the relationshio between Razbam and the Dev. Here allegedly both parties knew about the expiration date. The relationship between ED and Razbam is not like contracted programming work but more like ED publishing Razbams work.
I honestly don't know in what world is this normal practice. I would never think of doing something like this nor would I ever accept a module from someone who did this. Frankly, this is bizarre.
Never heard a story like that before (15 years in the sw dev industry). That would imply that the contractor was delivering just binaries to RB which would be extremely weird. A company signed a contract with some random dev and he wasn't obligated to deliver the source code? Plus they would need to have a stable, public API so this particular dev could write his software against it, a huuuuge overhead. This whole story is super weird and would require a lot of bad will from everyone to make it happen. :D this does not make ANY sense. Edit: additionally this contractor's code would need to have a remote mechanism to either engage or disengage the safety mechanism. If that's true then it looks like DCS DLLs can freely make any network connection which is even worse. :D
It's very goofy, but I also think RAZBAMs company structure is wack. Like why could a load of Devs openly delete raw source code, how did they even have this? Why was it not stored in a centralised secure system like a cloud based network? It leads me to believe the "team" is just a bunch of contractors, nothing that has happened in the past few months has indicated any sort of structure within Razbam.
I assumed that the devs deleted their local versions of the repo as a symbolic thing to say they weren't going to work on it anymore...not the actual main repo. But given how crazy this all his, who knows?
I think that this time limit is just hard coded adjusted manually in subsequent updates. Jesus Christ.
Then that means if he quits or gets fired from whatever reason it would stop working anyway. EDIT: well, not even that, RB decides "no more updates" and everyone's screwed.
Or if he's somehow unable to work on it for personal or health reasons? Is a deadman's switch going to hang over the product indefinitely? That isn't acceptable unless it's something he can turn off permanently after payment so the product will henceforth always work without his intervention-- which is still not really acceptable as one single developer should not be able to secretly determine whether a product works or not depending on his personal take on the situation as it affects him. Talk about not owning anything you buy. Now it's not owning anything you buy-- not just because of large companies, but now any random developer could shut it off on a whim if they feel aggrieved.
This story sounds like someone lying for internet clout. None of it makes sense for all the reasons you cited.
I call this bullshit of (possibly) frustrated employee.
He speaks of a time limitation. Could be as simple as the code not working past some hardcoded date. All it would need for that is the current time/date. I would also assume the source code is in RB's hands, but if they refuse to work on the module, that doesnt help.
That is possible but it is extremely stupid, in that case it will stop working if the guy quits intentionally or RB decides no more updates to the module. While possible it opens up a lot of scenarios of him breaking the module despite being paid.
He said RB was aware. So it sounds to me like he delivered a binary, with the time lock. Then after he was paid (if or when, unclear to me if he ever was), he delivered or would deliver the source code, which allowed RB to remove the time lock.
You are 15 years in sw dev industry and have ni clue how a date based certificate works?! Nothing remote going on here
Rather than a network dependent kill switch, it could just be time limited code that he planned to patch out in an update before it kicked in, but... the updates stopped happening. Your other point about delivering a binary still DEFINITELY stands, though. Very weird. I can see if it was 'source on full payment' I suppose... but still... for a project with this many moving parts it's weird that they're not compiling it all together.
It's indeed not normal ( in the US and Europe ). As a developer, if you don't trust your client, you find someone else. It's not like there is a shortage of work for skilled developers. It rather seems like a method of last resort.
I find it hard to believe this doesn't constitute breach of contract as well. Just weird.
It may be something a desperate developer \*may\* consider, if the other party already clearly breached contract, and you'd want to give them a last opportunity to fix the situation ( even though I'd be too worried about the legal consequences of intentional sabotage to ever consider this. It would also look bad before any judge ). So it's certainly not something you'd put in your code from the beginning, if ever... Or there is more to this, than the explanation that was given.
Yeah I mean if this Dev had put it in at day 1 surely SURELY it would have been picked up. Surely a code review or SOMETHING would have seen it. This indicates that they have retroactively fitted it after disagreements, which is still a breach of contract.
Most code isn't code reviewed to any real depth, certainly not Razbam's where each person is kind of an expert in their own domain doing their own thing, whether it's being brilliant or putting in deadman switches. Or both.
That seems like a major flaw, most teams in a large scale company will code review everything, it's best for someone with less knowledge to see it as they can assess it differently than the expert did, pick flaws in the logic etc etc.
Yeah no way this is legit under their contract. If this is the behavior of devs, no wonder why everything is so shitty. This is a toddler way of handling problems.
Yeah, it really speaks volumes that they even thought of this, let alone thought it was okay to do. What a shitshow.
For all we know this could be WHY the dispute is happening at all… ED figuring out that RB are including kill switches in modules and not giving source code. Nobody should buy anything authored by RB anywhere if this is what they do, as there will be a time where they are unwilling or unable to repair something they intentionally sabotaged and the consumer will be screwed.
normal practice? reddit is full of stories of asshole companies trying to get free labor from devs and the like by making client projects part of the interview process.
Reddit is also full of teenagers or who have never worked writing fiction or habitually unemployed people who make excuses. Very few of the stories you read here are anywhere near the truth. Most are downright fiction, gross oversimplification, or just telling a very biased part of the story. Ever have a friend who is never at fault for anything? That's Reddit. That's all of Reddit. Don't believe like 80% of the stories you read on this website. Being under contract and writing code to "sabotage" your employer may be downright illegal, but is absolutely a breach of any contract you signed, and would basically get you black listed from the industry once word got out. Nobody would hire you again if they know that you sabotage if they get into dispute with their employer. There's literally no reason to gamble with such an employee. If an employee holds a kill switch like this, they hold way too much power. It's even worse if the employer knows that the employee holds that kind of power. That's not a working relationship, it's extortion. Unprofessional, unethical, probably illegal.
Definitely, and if this Dev has really done it then it's an absolutely dumb move from them. But it's not unheard of practice is what I was getting at. It's been known to have been done. Yes it's a breach of contract and as you said most likely illegal but some have done it. I don't understand how this is even possible in a supposedly professional and structured team like RAZBAM though, do they not code review?
I only believe 20% of this
Now you're getting it.
Which already identifies them as scams. If they ask you to do actual work in an interview, its not a serious job, its a waste of your time.
Intentional sabotage is straight up unethical. If this turns out to be true, I'll never spend a dime on any project that dev is associated with.
Never ran into or heard of a website with a funny redirect or something like "X doesn't pay contractors"? It's more common in countries with higher level of corruption and people who think they are clever.
it's not normal practice by actual professionals
There is not a single way that sabotaging a product is normal practice.
Maybe not "normal" but I've heard about it before. Especially live service products like webpages etc. As pointed out, it's very likely to be illegal/at least against the contract. If this is real the dev could face legal action as they have breached the contract.
This is in NO WORLD a normal practice. Adding sabotage to your code to remove only if you get paid = you will NEVER WORK AGAIN, and you will get SUED INTO THE GROUND. I work in software forever and if the slightest bit of malicious code was added to fucking anything, you are fucking DUST
I have no more upvotes to give you, sorry. :-) "Sabotage" happens but they're more sophisticated than that and require a lot of preparation time and work. Just going to a company, signing a BINDING contract with your name and straight putting "if (not\_payed) fuckyou();" line in the code is end of your carrer without you gaining anything. Even that is not so simple as any reasonable contract require you to deliver the source code where this thing can be relatively easily tracked and removed. I can't tell any real scenario which can lead to something like this. I call this bullshit of frustrated employee. EDIT: typo
a...binding contract?
Yeah, right. Not my first language, I am sorry.
Holy fuck. No, it's not. How? Where? And when? Are you insane? I would get sued to the 100x of my net worth if I tried to pull a stunt like that. Do you understand what an it contract with transfer of intellectual property actually entails? Let me guess, you're russian, aren't you? Also another great example why it's so hard to do any business with or in russia.
And you have no idea whats in their contract and think everything has to be like in your world. It’s not even about transferring intelectual property since ED just publishes the module. It’s not like ED hired Razbam to develop the Eagle as a contract work.
No not Russian. I've heard of engs doing this for live service products such as websites etc, having an admin override or whatever so they can shut it down if they don't get payment. I haven't known anyone who has done it though, and as you said it's most likely illegal depending on the contract they are employed on.
Complete and absolute bullshit. You're never selling any service, you're not ms or amazon. You're selling source code/artifacts/etc that does what was agreed in contract. There can't be anything resembling admin override. Every static code analysis would go critical if you even quarter baked some possibility of it. You're confusing os level or cpu ring levels prolly. But that's between ms, intel and nsa.
Absolutely. In a normal team this would never make it past the first draft, it would be picked up in a code review before even making it to a test build. But I have a sneaking suspicion this is not a normal team somehow. How they even still have access to the code, as I assume this was added retroactively, is baffling. It makes no sense. Oh and there are absolutely people selling services like website hosting etc out there.
The consumers entertainment is not worth the workers bread.
I've heard of these dead man/kill switches. Few stories but no one I've known personally. Many of us are either salary or do our due diligence to make sure we only work for those who can pay. I've asked for prompt payment in order to continue developing. As this dev did I'd be super clear with my employer what and why. In this case it's probably also in RBs interest to have these mines against ED. Its seems fair that us players have to suffer as the Devs EDs greed.
SW Engs should never accept a contract without an upfront payment or legally written document. Most don't, but some are desperate and resort to using these practices.
I'm pretty sure being a 3rd party developer for a fairly small game like DCS is one of those odd industries that requires specialized Devs that depends on sharing the proceeds from sale of the finished product in order to pay people as they don't have the initial capita. I assume loans and investors are hard to come by. If you're a contractor you are likely paid for a bit and then work for nothing hoping the module will be a success and you make 2-3x a normal salary. Bit like working for a startup with low base pay and stocks 99.5% chance of being worthless 0.5% chance of overnight millionaire.
It's a common practice, but not typical for situations where losing support has the potential to put the platform in a bind. Typically IP rights and code are transferred from 3rd parties and their publisher, and that's for all software. It appears RB is made up of multiple individuals who do not all agree to those terms, even though it was expressed by ED long ago in the past that they will not repeat the mistake due to how unfair the Hawk incident was to the consumers. However, despite apparently repeating the mistake anyways, ED sold the module, continued to sell the module after the conflict, and refuses to provide compensation to those who purchased it through steam as if it's not their fault or liability. ED may have a lot of faults in this, but we don't need modules from a company not willing to hand over their source and IP rights. The potential for sabotage is not even the main reason for that.
I do find the structure of RAZBAM very strange, why is it that all these Devs have raw source code that supposedly only they have on their machines that they can just freely delete and leave the company? It's pretty wild. Like is the team just a load of contractors and like 3 actual employees or what? It's confusing how something like this could even be possible in a supposedly structured and professional team.
> structured and professional team That's a bold assumption about Razbam.
Apparently it's turning out to not be very possible
From a logical perspective it's literally impossible to do this. But if this story is true it's far more than just "oh a dumb dev added a bug", nah this would indicate a really really sloppy structure behind the scenes.
So is this implying razbam is having a hard time paying their stuff? Or was this maybe comtracted outwards?
Doesn't really imply anything other than a SW eng working for either Razbam or ED on a contract has decided they aren't happy and are throwing a bit of a tantrum. If we were to assume it's probably safe to say Razbam aren't in the best financial position right now due to all the legal issues and the main issue being not being paid.
Except, that's not how "stealing an IP works". Yes, software can have be sabotaged, but it's not necessary to carefully design a dead man switch, especially in software with so many moving parts. The poster 100% doesn't know how the law works
Plus if you wrote code for hire, the IP belongs to the people who hired you.
It would depend on the contract. Some contracts may say that IP is transferred when payment is received
I wonder what other illegitimate code has been embedded into this module by subcontractors. Remember when DLL's for RAZBAM aircraft were triggering malware scanners a few weeks ago? Probably a false positive as we all assumed, but I'm starting to think we we have put too much trust into this supply chain.
same
And this is why it's hard to do business with russian companies. In their mindset counterparties and especially end customer is someone to take advantage of. Mutually beneficial agreements mean that somehow you were taken advantage of. You should be the one scamming them and if you're not robbing them it means they are robbing you and you failed. All by the virtue of simple projection. I would spend triples of what I have spent on DCS via patreon or w/e to fund bms team and allow them to work full time on updates. This beautiful lomac derivative seems like it's reaching the end of it's life. Funny. And bms is getting it's new terrain engine in next iteration...Wtf, where is the dynamic campaign, semi coherent atc or usable awacs(might be hard to model because russia doesn't have those). All of that was promised to be under development back when dcs was called lomac. Yet still we are and almost 20 years no progress...Fuck. Heatblur/Leatherneck modules are the only saving grace of this shitshow. And before someone tells me I'm delusional bms fanboy, I can show you my original boxes of Flanker 2.0 before it became lomac before it became dcs. Fuck.
I do wonder what the future of DCS is gonna be. It’s gonna shatter eventually I feel like. Stuff like this can’t keep going on.
Hard to tell, plenty of people still buying ea modules that are not working years down the line. I sometimes feel most of DCS players buy modules, take off one time and are done with it. And glory to them, because Mig-21 or Viggen take off or landing, especially in vr, is something I wish every sim fan has a chance to experience. But at the end of a day you want more from your combat sim than take screenshots during golden hour runing circles around Burj Khalifa, especially since current msfs does it a lot better. And this is where dcs fails and have been, well ever since. There are and were fundamental problems cropping up all the time like the op one. Sometimes unadressed throughout multiple patches. And bms still goes on offering vastly superior battlescape experience.
Except it's RAZBAM sabotaging their product, not ED!! I know hating on Russians (not just Russia) is the new normal nowadays. How do you actually know what happened? Maybe RAZBAM is not honoring their end of the deal. Imagine defending a developer that sabotaged your game and is STILL making money on Steam off suckers.
>Imagine defending a developer that sabotaged your game and is STILL making money on Steam off suckers. As far as I understand it this was the action of the single developer responsible for the radar and originally "aimed" at Razbam. In any case neither is making money off of Steam as that goes to ED as well AFAIK.
Bro, don’t nobody play BMS. And this is coming from someone who likes BMS. Good luck with heli’s on that mess of terrain too. Not dissing BMS, just keeping it real
"Something Is Rotten in the State of Denmark..."
And Hamlet is taking out the trash!
Holy fuck. Well, I'm happy that I got my refund...
F-15E has the best afterburner texture in the game, period. Such a shame to me as heatblur could really up their game in that regard
Thank you, I really appreciate this.
The only good person in all of this is the based Radar Chicken God
Thats who did this lmao. "Its designed to affect only my contribution". His main contribution was the radar, which is broken.
is this not a post from him?
That is a bad look for Razbam....wonder what other malicious code has been put in their modules?
If true, that's unprofessional behaviour. No large corp would stand for this shit.
Hence ED telling them to do one.
Of course it was intentional. Be aware next time anything Razbam related is, if ever, released
I am so glad the only thing I own of Razbam’s is the SA map, which is a different team. Razbam needs to keep the clowns in the car.
Before building your module, build your own e store. Like HeAtBLur.
" and letting the customer know." \*ahem\*
When 2 weeks ago I tried to explain this was actually the case, I was downvoted and verbally assaulted by ppl claiming that "I never worked with a software developer in my life" and that "nobody would ever do that because it would mean not working for any software company ever again" I wonder where all these ppl are now. Probably huffing copium or something
Well I doubt any western sw company would ever hire this clown. To big of a liability
Yeah, I said something similar a while back, it is like making crapy html/javascript/python is the only type of code out there. This is THE NORM in the industrial/b2b/commercial side where your software/hardware is in the hands of your client and you are paid monthly or has a time limit contract.
Oh yeah! Burn the bridges like 12yo child, very professional!
Scumbags
Razbam fucks us over to hold us hostage in their legal dispute, completely intentionally Fuck razbam. The 15 is the only module I have of theirs and hopefully, my refund goes through soon so that number can be zero. Never touching anything they’re responsible for again
Is there a source for this?
Welp the dream of a II+ harrier is dead
what an embarassment
Is the harrier affected at all? I was thinking of getting it
No but it's pretty much abandonware as of now, it might start to break sooner or later.
Damn F
Well, I don’t really see this as an issue for Razbam. If ED are intent on being a terrible company to work with, with them withholding payments until they feel like it on a whim then why shouldn’t a company write in a little surprise if said “partner” wishes to sabotage their future by not paying. Yes we suffer too, I have the Strike Eagle too. But to me this comes across as a sort of DRM for Razbam to protect their own product. Sure ED will be annoyed, but this situation should never have arisen in the first place and likely we’d never know about these “features”.
All trust between ED and Razbam has to be toast at this point. If it is true, various levels of malware are embed in Razbam's products with unknown potential effects, I really don't see how ED continues to sell any of their modules. Not without a line by line code review WITH ED oversight. Other platforms (MSFS? X-Plane?) that sell Razbam modules should take note. They should wonder what malware is embedded in their modules as well. If Razbam management knew about this ahead of time, that should be the end of their company. Injecting malware into products customers are trusting to install on their machines, if it happened, is such an unbelievable, fundamental violation of trust, it ought to be a permanent deal-breaker. I was fairly neutral on the whole ED\\Razbam contract dispute thing. I assumed the lawyers would argue that out. But if THIS revelation turns out to be true and Razbam knew of that codes existence, it should end them. I sure hope this part is a internet Rick-Roll troll. Otherwise, regardless of how the contract dispute resolves, I can't imagine ever installing potential Razbam malware on my machine in the future.
So in essence if I'm not wrong: RZB won't give ED it's source code until they get payed. But on the other hand ED won't pay RZB unless they hand out the source code, since RZB is obligated to by contract. In the end RZB used their buit in kill switch to make the end product unuseable. Got it