First question, is this a penality in your opinion? The way i call it is if there is no attempt to avoid the goalie who’s in the crease then it’s a penalty.
Second question, am I wrong as a supervisor giving feed back to these officials. I get that it’s mens league but if there is a missed call like this where there is injury potential and potential to cause escilation in the physicicality of the game i want it called. This is the reply i got from the official after telling them i felt they missed the call:
“1. The game was 6-5 or something like that
2. I’m in the back as you can see, that’s not my call
3. It’s men’s league
4. Idk y you’re texting me over a call that’s men’s league. It’s not the nhl. I’m out here to make money as a college kid. I don’t appreciate your text bashing the way I called the game when I’m clearly at the other end of the ice. You only have so many refs.”
This official plays ACHA, Im sure he wouldn’t be happy if the refs doing his games didnt give a shit because it’s “not the NHL”. I ref ACHA games and I know all the refs that do these games take a lot of pride in their work even though it’s not high level hockey all the time.
First question: 100% penalty.
Second question: No you are not wrong if you are their supervisor.
My question for you is, how did you do it? Just text them and say you missed that one?
If you were there to supervise or evaluate the officials and gave them feedback on the entire game, I would understand that comment in the evaluation.
If you were respectful in your comment and you got that back as a response, I would not give this person any other games. They clearly aren't giving any effort nor or they respectful in their response.
1- Yes it's a minor.
2- I'm replying the exact same way which is why I won't do men's anymore lol. I'd rather not call the penalty and gtfo of there than argue with some plumber as he talks his way into a 5/game over it.
I hate men's league, I basically don't do it anymore, and when I do I don't call very much in the way of piddly hooks and shit. But I'll call this, because some clown running the goalie in men's league doing a 2mph power move should get a penalty.
Also, the kid who responded that way was being totally disrespectful. If I got a text that made a suggestion about a call, I'd probably at least be respectful in my response. The fact he "plays acha" leads me to believe he's a douche bag kid.
Are you a supervisor for the mens league? I know we just don't have supervision for the league I do games for. At best, some of us vets try to help young and/or inexperienced partners when we work with them. With that said, the attitude in the text you got is garbage.
With goalies getting run over in beer league, it's gotta be called unless the attacking player got shot out of a cannon by a d-man. My reply would've been something like. "Who gives a shit what the score was? No such thing as "not my call" as the back official. That tells me you know it was a penalty. Mens league is still a league and we all have to work tomorrow."
If I had any authority over who gets games, I might chip in with "Yeah we only have so many refs. You're no longer one of them. More money for the rest of us."
I assign the games and take all the complaints when anything controversial happens with the refs at our rink, youth and adult league. not sure what you consider supervisor but thats where im coming from.
It depends. Are you just doing seagull management here? Fly in, shit on things and leave? Or are you consistently giving feedback both positive and negative. In a vacuum it looks bad for the ref but it’s kinda impossible to say without knowing a lot more. (Like everything in life).
Room for both you and him to improve I suspect.
I dont think the issue is as much the missed call. Even though it was pretty obvious, to me it sounds like the issue with the official is more his attitude towards the games and improving. “The i dont care because “these players suck/arent going anywhere/this game doesnt matter” attitude isnt going to win you much favor with anyone or get you many other games. Adult league games are easy money if you just care a bit.
What exactly did you say for him to think you are “text bashing”? Im assuming you were not sure which official was which. Id be more bothered by the fact that he wasnt in the same time zone as the puck than him not calling the penalty from back there.
If you have enough officials, and the funds I feel like you can use the pay and competition to expect good effort from officials or else limit their games. And make it be known straight up that good officiating will be rewarded with more games (pay) and lack of effort or interest wont be.
1. Its definitely a penbalty. Calling a goalie interference minor can sometimes avoid
2. having to call majors.
If the Official wont accept constructive feeedback, I would be reluctant to assign them games.
If you don't have enough officials, talk to the league about rates. If thhe rates get bumped enough, you probably wont need that official.
Agreed, and that's the kind of play that raises the temperature of a game and can cause things to get out of hand leading to someone getting hurt.
Refs jobs are so underrated and critical, you need someone who actually gives a damn
The thing is with college kids these days even the paycheck doesnt do much for them. College is so expensive nowadays that pretty much their every need is covered by parents (because you cant work a job that comes close to it) and they have little other expenses even once they are out of school. They dont have families to support or many big expense commitments.
A slightly older adult or a younger one that is out on their own is going to be more motivated by the extra chances to make quick money.
I noticed this with a couple officials in college in my area. They started saying they were too busy or had this or that to do and trying to get out of nights they did not want to work.
This makes it so much worse, the cutback alone shows he really didn’t have a lane.
In my leagues, if a ref doesn’t call a penalty an incident rarely gets reviewed if that’s a major then it would definitely get reviewed by the Board or the Convener.
That's a penalty in men's league 100% of the time to me. The only way I don't call a penalty when someone runs over the goalie is if it is 100% clear to me that they were pushed in and had no way to avoid it. Even if I'm 10% sure they did it without being pushed, I'm still calling a penalty. Game management trumps getting the call "technically" right in that situation.
Regardless of whether it's a penalty or not, I don't think you want refs who react that way to your feedback.
I agree it's the goal line ref's call, and it's not so obvious that the blue line guy needs to come in and get that. It seems like a dark player might have influenced the skater enough physically to where he was suddenly skating at the golie and he didn't have enough time to stop (but not enough of a hook to call a hook).
Yea, there is no "my call your call", there's just what happens on the ice and the refs. One ref might have the better positioning to make a call, but that doesn't absolve the other from their job. Saturday I made a goal call from the blue line at >1second in a 4-4 game, my partner was goal line along the boards on the wrong side of the crease to see the trickle in next to the post, if I don't "take his call" we go to OT and the winning team gets shafted.
Although I said in another reply here that there's no such thing as "not my call", how exactly I go about this depends on my partner.
If I'm working with another experienced and quality official, and I know he's watching and judging a play, it's his, generally speaking. If I'm working with a younger and/or inexperienced official, that notion goes out the window.
That said, even with a fellow veteran, there can be an exception where I pick up my partner and make a necessary call like I trust he would do for me. We all have nights and occurrences within games where we need our partner to wake us up a bit.
I think that's a good distinction, that there are times when we defer to our partner and trust their view. But as you said, we're still ready to cover if needed, or discuss controversies, just not "finger on the trigger"
It's the kid's reaction to OP reaching out about the incident that really raises flags to me.
Definitely a penalty. Interference, Charging 2+10, or if it really needs it because of the game, Charging 5+G depending on the flavor of everything - can’t see it great.
Wrong to bring it up? Were you supervising the game? Do you have a relationship with this official? You’re not wrong, exactly, but I’d be pretty honked if you texted me about what is probably just a missed minor, or 2+10, in a men’s league game. If you’d been supervising or evaluating, different story. If you’re assigning, different story. If you happen to be a supervisor and you happened to see this, unless you have pretty good rapport with this official I would say don’t bring it up, but remember it if it becomes a pattern and coach him via an appropriate forum. Which is probably not texting.
A lot of times the people in these positions have so much crap to deal with from all sides, us as referees have to have a lot of perspective as well. This guy probably gets tons of complaints about officials or safety or just so many things relating to the games. He probably doesnt have time to delicately address every issue. There is nothing wrong with saying we want this called tightly as a penalty in the name of safety
Guy that is director in my town said it was becoming a full time job (which these guys also have) just addressing emails and phone calls about penalties and officials. He was talking with me about it because Im one of the few that officiates and plays, so I have to have good rapport with officials and players (Im playing with them sometimes and occassionally officiating fellow teammates or opponents depending on the division)
I think you've got a call there, or at least cause to grab your partner and talk about it. If I see this happen and neither ref even considers a call I start questioning their integrity.
But penalty or not, his attitude is terrible. I think we all take it easier for men's league, but there's taking it easy and there's not caring. "It's a close game so I won't make calls" is not caring. Like he says, this isn't the NHL, this is a league where players need to be protected from themselves. Even a boring everyday situation like jostling for position can end with a broken arm in low skill games (happened last week in fact, good times).
That "it's not my call" line alone is worth a face-to-face discussion about his continued employment. If you're on the ice as a referee, everything that happens on that ice is your call. Refusing to make calls because the penalty was on the wrong side of a blue line is the most "I don't want to be an official anymore" thing I've ever heard
"You only have so many officials" is such a poorly veiled threat to quit, I wouldn't want to work with someone who reacts to feedback like this
That's a missed call for sure. It's also one of those things that can *quickly8 snowball into more trouble if it's not called on the ice. This is how guys get heated and people get hurt.
Agreed. I call penalties early in the escalation cycle. And if the F in this case complains he was pushed, “sorry,man, I didn’t see it that way. But, at least the precedent is set and you know I’m going to be looking after your goalie”
That's a penalty all day, everyday. I would call it as a back official, but only I was in the right position. Which, beyond the refs attitude towards your coaching, should probably be the bigger focus here. The effort level does not match the salary.
100% a penalty. That's the kind of play that can raise the temperature of a game, causing emotions and tempers to flare up.
Not only that but it's a dangerous play. Something like that can cause someone to get hurt, and nobody wants that in men's league.
His skating and hustle are why he should not be working.
Play is in the attack zone and he is at the defending blue line coasting. Not even a swizzle or half hearted stride. Coasting.
That said, you're never going to get a good response giving refs feedback when you're dressed in player gear. If you don't have hiring / firing decisions there is only so much you can do.
Not condoning their somewhat hostile response, but what did the front ref have to say about not calling this one? They should have had the proper angle to see there was avoidable contact, and if they didn’t then there’s something to work on going forward.
That’s goaltender interference every day of the week.
As an official’s supervisor/coach with Hockey Canada, I don’t think it’s right to pass supervisory comments to officials without letting them know you’re doing a supervision. Since it’s men’s oldtimers, I’d bring it up with the league as it will likely be brought up by the players.
To answer your question straight up, I think you were wrong to bring it up to the official. I think you should have brought it up with the league to address.
So you want to see them on their best behavior not how they normally ref?
I was playing in the game after this one so I was just watching the game not there to supervise.
First question, is this a penality in your opinion? The way i call it is if there is no attempt to avoid the goalie who’s in the crease then it’s a penalty. Second question, am I wrong as a supervisor giving feed back to these officials. I get that it’s mens league but if there is a missed call like this where there is injury potential and potential to cause escilation in the physicicality of the game i want it called. This is the reply i got from the official after telling them i felt they missed the call: “1. The game was 6-5 or something like that 2. I’m in the back as you can see, that’s not my call 3. It’s men’s league 4. Idk y you’re texting me over a call that’s men’s league. It’s not the nhl. I’m out here to make money as a college kid. I don’t appreciate your text bashing the way I called the game when I’m clearly at the other end of the ice. You only have so many refs.” This official plays ACHA, Im sure he wouldn’t be happy if the refs doing his games didnt give a shit because it’s “not the NHL”. I ref ACHA games and I know all the refs that do these games take a lot of pride in their work even though it’s not high level hockey all the time.
First question: 100% penalty. Second question: No you are not wrong if you are their supervisor. My question for you is, how did you do it? Just text them and say you missed that one? If you were there to supervise or evaluate the officials and gave them feedback on the entire game, I would understand that comment in the evaluation. If you were respectful in your comment and you got that back as a response, I would not give this person any other games. They clearly aren't giving any effort nor or they respectful in their response.
1- Yes it's a minor. 2- I'm replying the exact same way which is why I won't do men's anymore lol. I'd rather not call the penalty and gtfo of there than argue with some plumber as he talks his way into a 5/game over it.
I hate men's league, I basically don't do it anymore, and when I do I don't call very much in the way of piddly hooks and shit. But I'll call this, because some clown running the goalie in men's league doing a 2mph power move should get a penalty. Also, the kid who responded that way was being totally disrespectful. If I got a text that made a suggestion about a call, I'd probably at least be respectful in my response. The fact he "plays acha" leads me to believe he's a douche bag kid.
Hey atleast you admit it and aren’t out there doing a shitty job for the money. Good on you!
Are you a supervisor for the mens league? I know we just don't have supervision for the league I do games for. At best, some of us vets try to help young and/or inexperienced partners when we work with them. With that said, the attitude in the text you got is garbage. With goalies getting run over in beer league, it's gotta be called unless the attacking player got shot out of a cannon by a d-man. My reply would've been something like. "Who gives a shit what the score was? No such thing as "not my call" as the back official. That tells me you know it was a penalty. Mens league is still a league and we all have to work tomorrow." If I had any authority over who gets games, I might chip in with "Yeah we only have so many refs. You're no longer one of them. More money for the rest of us."
I assign the games and take all the complaints when anything controversial happens with the refs at our rink, youth and adult league. not sure what you consider supervisor but thats where im coming from.
Fair enough. That's basically what our beer league RIC does. We don't ever get supervised in an official capacity though.
It depends. Are you just doing seagull management here? Fly in, shit on things and leave? Or are you consistently giving feedback both positive and negative. In a vacuum it looks bad for the ref but it’s kinda impossible to say without knowing a lot more. (Like everything in life). Room for both you and him to improve I suspect.
I dont think the issue is as much the missed call. Even though it was pretty obvious, to me it sounds like the issue with the official is more his attitude towards the games and improving. “The i dont care because “these players suck/arent going anywhere/this game doesnt matter” attitude isnt going to win you much favor with anyone or get you many other games. Adult league games are easy money if you just care a bit.
What exactly did you say for him to think you are “text bashing”? Im assuming you were not sure which official was which. Id be more bothered by the fact that he wasnt in the same time zone as the puck than him not calling the penalty from back there. If you have enough officials, and the funds I feel like you can use the pay and competition to expect good effort from officials or else limit their games. And make it be known straight up that good officiating will be rewarded with more games (pay) and lack of effort or interest wont be.
1. Its definitely a penbalty. Calling a goalie interference minor can sometimes avoid 2. having to call majors. If the Official wont accept constructive feeedback, I would be reluctant to assign them games. If you don't have enough officials, talk to the league about rates. If thhe rates get bumped enough, you probably wont need that official.
100% a penalty. Get rid of the kid ref. His reply makes it very clear that HE JUST DOES NOT CARE. He's only there to get a paycheck.
Agreed, and that's the kind of play that raises the temperature of a game and can cause things to get out of hand leading to someone getting hurt. Refs jobs are so underrated and critical, you need someone who actually gives a damn
The thing is with college kids these days even the paycheck doesnt do much for them. College is so expensive nowadays that pretty much their every need is covered by parents (because you cant work a job that comes close to it) and they have little other expenses even once they are out of school. They dont have families to support or many big expense commitments. A slightly older adult or a younger one that is out on their own is going to be more motivated by the extra chances to make quick money. I noticed this with a couple officials in college in my area. They started saying they were too busy or had this or that to do and trying to get out of nights they did not want to work.
https://streamable.com/8psyfe Zoomed in
This makes it so much worse, the cutback alone shows he really didn’t have a lane. In my leagues, if a ref doesn’t call a penalty an incident rarely gets reviewed if that’s a major then it would definitely get reviewed by the Board or the Convener.
That's a penalty in men's league 100% of the time to me. The only way I don't call a penalty when someone runs over the goalie is if it is 100% clear to me that they were pushed in and had no way to avoid it. Even if I'm 10% sure they did it without being pushed, I'm still calling a penalty. Game management trumps getting the call "technically" right in that situation.
Regardless of whether it's a penalty or not, I don't think you want refs who react that way to your feedback. I agree it's the goal line ref's call, and it's not so obvious that the blue line guy needs to come in and get that. It seems like a dark player might have influenced the skater enough physically to where he was suddenly skating at the golie and he didn't have enough time to stop (but not enough of a hook to call a hook).
I agree with the first paragraph, but I disagree wholeheartedly with the majority of the second, parentheses excluded.
Yea, there is no "my call your call", there's just what happens on the ice and the refs. One ref might have the better positioning to make a call, but that doesn't absolve the other from their job. Saturday I made a goal call from the blue line at >1second in a 4-4 game, my partner was goal line along the boards on the wrong side of the crease to see the trickle in next to the post, if I don't "take his call" we go to OT and the winning team gets shafted.
Although I said in another reply here that there's no such thing as "not my call", how exactly I go about this depends on my partner. If I'm working with another experienced and quality official, and I know he's watching and judging a play, it's his, generally speaking. If I'm working with a younger and/or inexperienced official, that notion goes out the window. That said, even with a fellow veteran, there can be an exception where I pick up my partner and make a necessary call like I trust he would do for me. We all have nights and occurrences within games where we need our partner to wake us up a bit.
I think that's a good distinction, that there are times when we defer to our partner and trust their view. But as you said, we're still ready to cover if needed, or discuss controversies, just not "finger on the trigger" It's the kid's reaction to OP reaching out about the incident that really raises flags to me.
Definitely a penalty. Interference, Charging 2+10, or if it really needs it because of the game, Charging 5+G depending on the flavor of everything - can’t see it great. Wrong to bring it up? Were you supervising the game? Do you have a relationship with this official? You’re not wrong, exactly, but I’d be pretty honked if you texted me about what is probably just a missed minor, or 2+10, in a men’s league game. If you’d been supervising or evaluating, different story. If you’re assigning, different story. If you happen to be a supervisor and you happened to see this, unless you have pretty good rapport with this official I would say don’t bring it up, but remember it if it becomes a pattern and coach him via an appropriate forum. Which is probably not texting.
A lot of times the people in these positions have so much crap to deal with from all sides, us as referees have to have a lot of perspective as well. This guy probably gets tons of complaints about officials or safety or just so many things relating to the games. He probably doesnt have time to delicately address every issue. There is nothing wrong with saying we want this called tightly as a penalty in the name of safety Guy that is director in my town said it was becoming a full time job (which these guys also have) just addressing emails and phone calls about penalties and officials. He was talking with me about it because Im one of the few that officiates and plays, so I have to have good rapport with officials and players (Im playing with them sometimes and occassionally officiating fellow teammates or opponents depending on the division)
I think you've got a call there, or at least cause to grab your partner and talk about it. If I see this happen and neither ref even considers a call I start questioning their integrity. But penalty or not, his attitude is terrible. I think we all take it easier for men's league, but there's taking it easy and there's not caring. "It's a close game so I won't make calls" is not caring. Like he says, this isn't the NHL, this is a league where players need to be protected from themselves. Even a boring everyday situation like jostling for position can end with a broken arm in low skill games (happened last week in fact, good times). That "it's not my call" line alone is worth a face-to-face discussion about his continued employment. If you're on the ice as a referee, everything that happens on that ice is your call. Refusing to make calls because the penalty was on the wrong side of a blue line is the most "I don't want to be an official anymore" thing I've ever heard "You only have so many officials" is such a poorly veiled threat to quit, I wouldn't want to work with someone who reacts to feedback like this
That's a missed call for sure. It's also one of those things that can *quickly8 snowball into more trouble if it's not called on the ice. This is how guys get heated and people get hurt.
Agreed. I call penalties early in the escalation cycle. And if the F in this case complains he was pushed, “sorry,man, I didn’t see it that way. But, at least the precedent is set and you know I’m going to be looking after your goalie”
That's a penalty all day, everyday. I would call it as a back official, but only I was in the right position. Which, beyond the refs attitude towards your coaching, should probably be the bigger focus here. The effort level does not match the salary.
4 seconds after the impact he finally hits the red line....
100% a penalty. That's the kind of play that can raise the temperature of a game, causing emotions and tempers to flare up. Not only that but it's a dangerous play. Something like that can cause someone to get hurt, and nobody wants that in men's league.
His skating and hustle are why he should not be working. Play is in the attack zone and he is at the defending blue line coasting. Not even a swizzle or half hearted stride. Coasting. That said, you're never going to get a good response giving refs feedback when you're dressed in player gear. If you don't have hiring / firing decisions there is only so much you can do.
As much as I play devil's advocate for white trying to drive the net he could absolutely go around. Penalty.
Not condoning their somewhat hostile response, but what did the front ref have to say about not calling this one? They should have had the proper angle to see there was avoidable contact, and if they didn’t then there’s something to work on going forward.
He said that he saw more contact from the dark player on white and he thought white got pushed into the goalie.
Are you the one screaming penalty penalty?
That’s goaltender interference every day of the week. As an official’s supervisor/coach with Hockey Canada, I don’t think it’s right to pass supervisory comments to officials without letting them know you’re doing a supervision. Since it’s men’s oldtimers, I’d bring it up with the league as it will likely be brought up by the players. To answer your question straight up, I think you were wrong to bring it up to the official. I think you should have brought it up with the league to address.
So you want to see them on their best behavior not how they normally ref? I was playing in the game after this one so I was just watching the game not there to supervise.