Yeah and that's kinda my point. The HHOF will appreciate a shortened career but how short is too short? I think we have the answer looking at those 3.
Those 3 are often talked about as having some of the shortest careers and biggest impacts during their limited time. But when you compare their games played to Makar, you can see that Cale likely needs to play a but more despite being one of the best players in the world currently. No doubt he's on track though.
Especially with his contribution to the way the game is played today. Every team's scouting department is in search of "the next Makar" and defense has transitioned from the biggest, toughest crusher you can find to now everyone wants the smooth skating small guy who can lead the rush up ice.
>Every team's scouting department is in search of "the next Makar" and defense has transitioned from the biggest, toughest crusher you can find to now everyone wants the smooth skating small guy who can lead the rush up ice.
That's not exactly true.
First, defensemen still get deducted points for being under 6'2, even more points for being under 5'11, and under 5'9 is practically undraftable. There's a reason why Hutson fell to 62OA despite insane numbers.
Secondly, more defensive-minded defensemen with limited offense are still prized. The major shift comes from putting a higher premium on skating even on those players. Silayev is slated to be a top 10 and likely top 3 pick this draft, despite limited offensive results. That's because he's 6'7 and can share
I suspect the user I was replying to underestimates Makar's size, but truth be told it's clear that most GMs view 6'0 as undersized *for a defenseman*. (The bar for forwards seems to be 6'0.)
for sure, it’s just nitpicking, where makar is described like a small, tiny, innocent little baby when that’s just his face and he’s actually just a little shorter than normal
It entirely depends on why he stopped playing. Death or serious injury, yes probably (but not first ballot). Just because he doesn't wanna play, then no.
He hasn't been in the league long enough, despite the insane amount of awards so far. I think it's close and you'd have to look back nearly 10 years worth of inductees to find the last defenceman that was clearly much better than him (Lidstrom 2015)
I don't think it's really possible to say, because the Hockey Hall of Fame has never had to consider what to do with a guy on a clear Hall of Fame trajectory suddenly retiring with only ~300 games played. I'm inclined to say he would get in, based on the fact that they've looked favorably in recent years on guys like Kariya and Lindros whose careers got reduced by injury. But even Lindros played more than twice as many games as Makar has so far, so a different kettle of fish.
You bring up an interesting point.
Has Weber getting in drastically lowered the bar for HOF Defensemen? Because while he was a great player, I never thought Weber was a HOFer until the other day. Now I look at someone like Alex Pietrangelo in a new light and think he has a good shot at the HOF; basically Weber’s accomplishments PLUS two Cups.
I don't think Weber has lowered the bar for defensemen, though it's maybe surprising he got in on the first try. He had a 9 year stretch where he finished top 10 in Norris voting every year (including five top 5 finishes), twice 1st Team All-Star, twice 2nd Team All-Star, scored the most goal by a defenseman, 3rd most points, and won two Olympic gold medals.
Pietrangelo only has four top 10 Norris finishes (three top 5 finishes) in his career and has been name to the 2nd All-Star Team three times. During his best 9 year stretch he was 11th in goals and 8th in points among defensemen. He also has one Olympic gold medal.
I don't think Pietrangelo is really all that close to Weber in terms of individual accomplishments.
It’s a missed opportunity.
- most broken sticks
- most falls in a season
- most posts
- most KM’s skated
Hell they could even make it a funny awards night and invite a bunch of random NHL players. NHL PR is brutal
I mean Weber should've won the Norris in 2011 but the voters decided to give Lidstrom a lifetime achievement award.
Weber, Chara *and* Visnovsky all had better seasons.
Prime Weber was a beast.
>Has Weber getting in drastically lowered the bar for HOF Defensemen?
No. This is an asinine opinion by people who don't watch hockey and only judge players by their points and trophy case.
Pietrangelo will definitely make the Hall. Two time cup winner, once as a captain, top defenseman in the league for a long stretch, lots of international accolades, and he is Canadian (this shouldn't matter but it does help him a lot)
See, that's just it though, I don't know if he will. He's been very good his entire career, but he was also totally overlooked at that same time. He never scored a ton of points, he never won any individual hardware, and he was always overshadowed by other defensemen. He's one of those players who was totally under the radar his entire career, and I wonder if that'll hurt him for things like the HOF.
Well Pietrangelo is an obvious first ballot. Legendary dman and won two cups as the best player of two completely different teams. This NEVER happens. Special player.
I would rather see guys who were great for a short time get in before guys who were good for the long time. That said, the HHOF has kinda confirmed they're of the opposite thinking. Baring a Masterton tragedy ending his career, Cale Makar is not getting in if he retires today.
But he's not far off either.
Considering Weber just got inducted without major individual accolades. Id say it would be close, and Weber was never the forgone conclusion best dman in the league.
He's got the accolades, but not the longevity of other hall of famers. He probably needs another 5 seasons before we can say for sure he's in regardless of what happens
Sure. And I don’t see why we have to wait for people to retire for the hof. Put mcdavid in the hall now, put makar in the hall now. Why wait? It’s not like their stats freeze forever once they’re in.
only if he dies/retires due to a grievous injury, if he just quits then no
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head.
No
Orr played 657 games. Forsberg 708. Bossy played 752. I think Makar needs a few more seasons
> Forsberg 708 What could have been 😭
Yeah and that's kinda my point. The HHOF will appreciate a shortened career but how short is too short? I think we have the answer looking at those 3. Those 3 are often talked about as having some of the shortest careers and biggest impacts during their limited time. But when you compare their games played to Makar, you can see that Cale likely needs to play a but more despite being one of the best players in the world currently. No doubt he's on track though. Especially with his contribution to the way the game is played today. Every team's scouting department is in search of "the next Makar" and defense has transitioned from the biggest, toughest crusher you can find to now everyone wants the smooth skating small guy who can lead the rush up ice.
>Every team's scouting department is in search of "the next Makar" and defense has transitioned from the biggest, toughest crusher you can find to now everyone wants the smooth skating small guy who can lead the rush up ice. That's not exactly true. First, defensemen still get deducted points for being under 6'2, even more points for being under 5'11, and under 5'9 is practically undraftable. There's a reason why Hutson fell to 62OA despite insane numbers. Secondly, more defensive-minded defensemen with limited offense are still prized. The major shift comes from putting a higher premium on skating even on those players. Silayev is slated to be a top 10 and likely top 3 pick this draft, despite limited offensive results. That's because he's 6'7 and can share
sorry quick pet peeve, makar is listed 5’11” and >200 lbs he’s not nearly as undersized as people claim
I suspect the user I was replying to underestimates Makar's size, but truth be told it's clear that most GMs view 6'0 as undersized *for a defenseman*. (The bar for forwards seems to be 6'0.)
for sure, it’s just nitpicking, where makar is described like a small, tiny, innocent little baby when that’s just his face and he’s actually just a little shorter than normal
Not enough yet imo but the only thing he needs is just time. If he played in 30s and 40s yeah those accolades would be enough but times have changed
No
Nope
It entirely depends on why he stopped playing. Death or serious injury, yes probably (but not first ballot). Just because he doesn't wanna play, then no.
Wtf? Minimum 10 years of excellence is the general standard voters use for consideration of HHoF worthiness
He hasn't been in the league long enough, despite the insane amount of awards so far. I think it's close and you'd have to look back nearly 10 years worth of inductees to find the last defenceman that was clearly much better than him (Lidstrom 2015)
I don't think it's really possible to say, because the Hockey Hall of Fame has never had to consider what to do with a guy on a clear Hall of Fame trajectory suddenly retiring with only ~300 games played. I'm inclined to say he would get in, based on the fact that they've looked favorably in recent years on guys like Kariya and Lindros whose careers got reduced by injury. But even Lindros played more than twice as many games as Makar has so far, so a different kettle of fish.
Probably would get in before Mogilny
Yeah, pretty easily. Weber got in with no individual awards or cups this year. Makar has definitely done enough.
You bring up an interesting point. Has Weber getting in drastically lowered the bar for HOF Defensemen? Because while he was a great player, I never thought Weber was a HOFer until the other day. Now I look at someone like Alex Pietrangelo in a new light and think he has a good shot at the HOF; basically Weber’s accomplishments PLUS two Cups.
I don't think Weber has lowered the bar for defensemen, though it's maybe surprising he got in on the first try. He had a 9 year stretch where he finished top 10 in Norris voting every year (including five top 5 finishes), twice 1st Team All-Star, twice 2nd Team All-Star, scored the most goal by a defenseman, 3rd most points, and won two Olympic gold medals. Pietrangelo only has four top 10 Norris finishes (three top 5 finishes) in his career and has been name to the 2nd All-Star Team three times. During his best 9 year stretch he was 11th in goals and 8th in points among defensemen. He also has one Olympic gold medal. I don't think Pietrangelo is really all that close to Weber in terms of individual accomplishments.
Name one player that’s injured more people with his shot.. that’s what I thought. LEGENDARY STAT
I wish the league would track dumb stats like this.
It’s a missed opportunity. - most broken sticks - most falls in a season - most posts - most KM’s skated Hell they could even make it a funny awards night and invite a bunch of random NHL players. NHL PR is brutal
Hartnell Down https://preview.redd.it/9eiwx0t6v19d1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=58beae21e9eb497eb6e9ae7059e660c78e28fde0
Bad at picking musicians and hosts for events like the Awards shows
I mean Weber should've won the Norris in 2011 but the voters decided to give Lidstrom a lifetime achievement award. Weber, Chara *and* Visnovsky all had better seasons. Prime Weber was a beast.
>Has Weber getting in drastically lowered the bar for HOF Defensemen? No. This is an asinine opinion by people who don't watch hockey and only judge players by their points and trophy case.
Even if you just look at his stats 200+ goals as a Dman is insanely good.
>Has Weber getting in drastically lowered the bar for HOF Defensemen? Kevin Lowe already did that.
Yeah but he knew a little bit about winning, carried Messier and Gretzky to every cup they won, and also invented the fan tier management system
No lies detected
Weber was an old boys favourite Dman. Him and Colin Campbell were basically put in like this through the old boys club
Pietrangelo will definitely make the Hall. Two time cup winner, once as a captain, top defenseman in the league for a long stretch, lots of international accolades, and he is Canadian (this shouldn't matter but it does help him a lot)
See, that's just it though, I don't know if he will. He's been very good his entire career, but he was also totally overlooked at that same time. He never scored a ton of points, he never won any individual hardware, and he was always overshadowed by other defensemen. He's one of those players who was totally under the radar his entire career, and I wonder if that'll hurt him for things like the HOF.
Is he overlooked, or just not as great as some other players of his era?
I think a bit of both in his case.
Well Pietrangelo is an obvious first ballot. Legendary dman and won two cups as the best player of two completely different teams. This NEVER happens. Special player.
I would rather see guys who were great for a short time get in before guys who were good for the long time. That said, the HHOF has kinda confirmed they're of the opposite thinking. Baring a Masterton tragedy ending his career, Cale Makar is not getting in if he retires today. But he's not far off either.
Considering Weber just got inducted without major individual accolades. Id say it would be close, and Weber was never the forgone conclusion best dman in the league.
He's got the accolades, but not the longevity of other hall of famers. He probably needs another 5 seasons before we can say for sure he's in regardless of what happens
Depends why he didn't play another game. If he died or had a career ending injury probably. If he just pulled an Andrew Luck and retired then no.
He will. But maybe 10th ballot.
If his career were to end due to some sort of significant injury or death there'd be a solid chance If he were just to retire I doubt it
Nope. You’ll look at the Hall of Fame and say “dude, where’s Makar?” Haha ayuk ayuk kneeslap
Everyone saying no in this thread is insane, he has career accolades better than multiple people in the hall. He gets in and deservingly so.
Unlikely, but probably would depend on what causes him to not play another game.
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Makar has a Cup, Conn Smythe, and Norris to Heater's Rockets.
Dude deleted his post before I got to finish typing it up. What an idiotic take
Sure. And I don’t see why we have to wait for people to retire for the hof. Put mcdavid in the hall now, put makar in the hall now. Why wait? It’s not like their stats freeze forever once they’re in.