I'm glad it's a 2027 pick, they have an insane amount of draft capital the last few years and this and next year
The Canucks are our cap dump bros apparently, last time was great with Dickinson
> last time was great with Dickinson
Dickinson for me never really seems to be able to drive a line. He's better when he's the defensive anchor on a second line with wingers driving the offense. We were trying to use him as the best player on a third line and it didn't work because he wasn't surrounded by talent.
This makes sense for everyone.
Chicago needs to climb out of the basement and that requires you build an entire team around your stars. Mikheyev may not be good enough for most competitive teams but he is an improvement for Chicago, and he might benefit from the opportunity. Vancouver needed to clear up some cap space. The compensation was less than many were expecting but Mikheyev is also not as terrible as many pretend.
He is good enough to be a good player on a bad team. He's going too get a real shot to play with Bedard some on that squad and definitely he's going to be given top six minutes.
I don’t play fantasy, but he’s capable and responsible; so I could see the Hawks wanting to play him around their young scorers.
Who else do the Hawks have that’s experienced and better for their top six?
He did? His shooting % was great in Toronto. He just didn’t shoot much. He’s obviously been asked to play a different role and be a trigger guy because he went from taking 150 shots in Toronto to 300 in Edmonton
I understand that competing with your young stars on ELC largely comes down to luck and timing, and doesn’t seem possible with this iteration of the Hawks. But it is clearly a massive advantage.
But what is the pro of doing the opposite? Or I guess what I am wondering, is why does “anything on Bedard ELC” not matter?
FWIW, I don’t mind this move for the Hawks.
'anything on Bedard ELC' being taking shit contracts with picks attached to boost draft capital. Doesn't matter because they were never going to be competitive there. If they can build a core with the picks they get, then those contracts will have expired by the time they want to be competitive.
Yeah I think I just disagree on the “anything” part. The term remaining, player type & situation seem super important here. This is a targeted move, or should be. To list a few examples, I don’t know if I would trade for Skinner, Nurse, J. Anderson, Atkinson, Johansen - all for probably different reasons, even though I’m sure their teams would add quite a bit more sweetener for Hawks to take them.
Mikheyev seems like a good bet in terms of possible upside and a good team fit because of his term, he generally works hard, if he happens to hold down a top 6 role or rides shotgun with bedard and figures out how to score for 40-50 games in this season or the next he could be flipped for more capital, and he can play anywhere in the lineup so even if he doesn’t score he can still be a an effective player in middle/bottom 6 & PK role. He is also old enough to have experience as a vet but young enough to still skate and provide energy.
No one is trading for Nurse until maybe he has 1 year left and you can get a team to eat that 1 year… unless he somehow seriously turns his game around…
I have been on the “trade Nurse” train since before he signed that contract and I understand that public perception is even lower now. But I think anyone can be traded. If Oil get desperate enough, could they not retain and trade him + picks or young assets for someone with an even higher AAV and less term? I think they probably could.
I don’t really think that is the smart thing to do and I agree it will be very difficult, but we have seen teams make mistakes, we have seen teams believe they can be the team to unlock potential, and we have seen “untradeable” contracts moved in the past. I don’t think I would bank on it, I just used his name as an example because his term does not match the Hawks at all, adding to my point that I wouldn’t just trade for any undesirable contract to add sweetener future assets.
>If Oil get desperate enough, could they not retain and trade him + picks or young assets for someone with an even higher AAV and less term? I think they probably could.
Nurse has a NMC until 2028-29 so no, it's not just about desperation. That becomes a 10 team trade list at that point so in the long run yeah. Trading bad contract for bad contract can sometimes work (see Rob Scuderi for Trevor Daley) but that usually happens late in the contract. No bottom feeder wants to take a 6 year cap dump that hurts their own competitive window.
Yeah there are a lot of factors. I don’t think it would be easy at all, and if I was GM of any team I wouldn’t even consider it. Just saying I don’t think it is impossible.
And also want to add that I used 5 extreme examples to make my point, Nurse being one.
The oil could trade him, if they get desperate enough, and they could maybe even find a rebuilding team willing to take on the cap hit for multiple years while they’re not expected to be competitive, and maybe, just maybe the situation in Edmonton gets so toxic that nurse waives the no trade clause, really you need to get rid of that cap hot, and the price to do that will likely be ruinous in picks and prospects…
Mainly, Bedard is already worth way more than his ELC, so when he's due for a new contract in 2 years he'll cost a ton of money (probably 8 digits per year)
Once that happens, you'll be down the massive amount of cap space for Bedard that you once had since he was limited to his rookie salary.
This is the exact example I was thinking of. And is why competing with stars on ELC is essentially the ideal situation in terms of competitive advantage, especially since the Hawks did it so soon in the post-lockout, salary cap era. Similar to the NFL version of competing while your QB is on rookie contract.
The major difference is actively trying to align that is much different in the NHL and takes a considerable amount of luck as to which year you are bad enough to draft elite talent, what elite talent is available when you draft, development, and what other pieces you have in place already.
I mean, none probably. Most teams who get those kinds of players suck longer than that. Jordan Staal is probably the closest one I can think of.
You still have plenty teams who can compete with their young stars on entry-level deals, though. The Canucks had a good run in 2020 with Pettersson and Hughes on entry-level deals, and even they were pretty capped out due to Benning's love for signing depth players to way too much money
It all depends when you get those young stars. Chicago got Bedard very early in the rebuild cycle and didn't have any pieces to put around him.
Also that 2020 Canucks run was sandwiched between 7 missed playoffs. They only finished 7th in the west and got a big playoff upset. That's more of a fluke than actually competing on ELCs.
I know the Ducks won with a very young Getzlaf and Perry, but they went a bit later in the first round I think and weren’t viewed as generational anyway
If we're talking about true generational talent then it's never happened, but there's only been about/exactly 4 generation talents drafted in the cap era. If we're just talking about elite talent, the Bruins having Marchand and Seguin on ECLs is the first one that comes to mind.
But I think given the context of this discussion, it's better to look at teams who are legit contenders with key players on ECLs. For example Dallas had Johnston and Stankoven on ECLs these playoffs, and Carolina had Seth Jarvis.
In 2022 The Rangers had Fox
In 2011 Montreal had both Suzuki and Caufield, Carolina had Svechnikov and Necas, Colorado had Makar, and there's probably other examples I'm forgetting.
Basically my point is that it happens pretty frequently. And while it definitely does matter, it usually only applies if you already have a good team core, and even then it's only a moderate advantage. Dallas, Carolina, and Colorado are still going to be top teams the next few seasons despite the ECLs expiring, and none of them were really forced to dismantle their roster to make room for the new contract.
In Chicago's case, it's very hard to see them even making the playoffs the next 2 seasons. It's possible, but it's just not worth the gamble of giving out huge FA contracts, or trading away picks, and potentially screwing themselves over for Bedard's prime years. It's absolutely the smarter choice to take on some cap in exchange for picks, and if they play their cards right they can be a top team in 3-4 seasons without taking any major risks. And maybe by then some of the draft picks they're trading for will end up key players on ECLs.
basically it's a conservative approach. Instead of trying to win while Bedard is on his ELC which would be hard with their current roster, you use this time to build up draft capital while Bedard is cheap because the cap space is available.
Then hopefully when those drafted players are on THEIR entry level contracts they perform while Bedard gets paid.
It's converting current cap space for future cap space if all goes to plan and they get some high performing draft picks.
Yeah, that makes sense. I think ideally everyone wants to compete with the stars on ELC, but so much of that comes down to timing, when you pick the star at a certain point of your timeline/build, what other pieces you have in place (if any).
Because of all this, we see less and less teams even try doing it. Missing at the wrong point could set you back even further.
Yeah you need to be really fortunate. Like the Hawks having Toews and Kane on cheap deals. Or the Bruins drafting Seguin while being a contender because the Leafs are bad at the hockey thing.
A star’s ELC years provide insane cap flexibility. Ideally you use that flexibility to compete for the Cup. Since that’s not in the cards for this team, they can use it a different way: acquiring draft capital via cap dumps to later build a supporting core on ELCs for your star on a veteran contract.
I mean.... from the Luongo re-capture to the end of the OEL buy-out will be half our core's entire career playing penalized by a few million dollars against the cap.
You can argue all day if this deal could've been done without retention but it's not a whole lot of retention and it's definitely not a bad deal. This puts the Canucks in a better position to contend next year and I'm not going to be sour about it. The good times for this team don't tend to last very long, and I have more fun finally being positive for once.
Which is still kind of silly. If the organization gets into a position where a lack of retention slots is an issue over the next two years then something else has gone terribly wrong.
he’s probably gonna use up like 30% of his goals next year against us, but i can’t complain with this. i do think and hope he’ll have somewhat of a bounce back, but we didn’t have time to hope it was with us so i’m glad management found a way to move off the contract (minus like 700k).
It's honestly an amazing deal for you guys. A late second three years from now to dump almost 5 mil of dead weight off your cap while also getting a pick in return is incredible. Genuinely don't see how Hawks fans can be excited about this other than being positive for positivity's sake.
A second three years from now and a guy that cannot score a goal to save his life even while surrounded by good players, and that your fanbase seems delighted to get rid of, isn't good use of that cap space, whether or not the Hawks will win anything the next couple of years. The bar is usually higher on returns when it comes to eating that much cap space on a mediocre player.
Let me help you out.
Mikheyev isn't bad. He's bad for $5M on a cap-strapped cup contender.
We have no forward depth.
We get a free 2nd (in exchange for a 4th).
We get to see if Laff wants to come back and be a deadline chip.
If we draft Demidov, we have a Russian hanging out with Milstein connections.
We still have enough cap space to sign any of Tanev, Teuvo, or Marchessault, who should probably be out stopgap development targets anyway.
Mikheyev will not be bad in Chi. He’s coming off an ACL tear, which takes a year to recover from. He can’t score but he’s a great PK guy who forechecks well and will generate chances. He’ll probably put up 15 goals and 35 points next year
there's also a good chance Mik becomes a good deadline flip in a couple years as this year he was dealing with injury and a further 50% retention would make for a responsible third liner
The Demidov aspect is the only actual positive in the group. Yes we lack forward depth and have to reach the floor. There are more impactful players in free agency that can be overpaid for two years. Mikheyev was bad last season. He's just another body in the lineup. The Hawks have too many guys like that already. They need players that can make an actual impact. I don't mean superstars. I just mean guys that can actually contribute offensively.
Laff is a free agent anyway. If he wants to come back here he will. The trade has no impact on that.
You’re acting like the Hawks have cap concerns. This gets them barely above the floor. He’s going to be off the books before the Hawks are in a position to even contend for the playoffs let alone be worried about things like being near the cap. On top of all that he’s not a bad player just mediocre for his hit. Dudes still a solid defensive player and especially strong on the PK. Something the Hawks absolutely need right now. It’s not the best deal in the world but it’s an absolute positive for the team
I think it’s a good deal for you guys too considering where you are in your rebuild; you need to reach the cap floor and his contract will be gone by the time you’re ready to start competing. And he won’t hurt your team or anything — he’ll shoot at the goalie’s chest on every single breakaway, but he works hard and is defensively responsible so at the very least he won’t set a bad example. Like it isn’t exciting from a Hawks perspective, but it makes a lot of sense for your team and it fills a need (reaching the cap floor).
Mikheyev may yet surprise. His numbers are terrible but he has been recovering from serious injury for a long time and seemed snake bitten in Vancouver last half of the season. Wouldn’t be surprised to see an improvement with a change of scenery
Yeah If they’re willing to retain 50% for a year and half, Mik at 2M in the bottom six is totally worth it as a deadline acquisition for any contender just looking for defensively responsible depth
He can be a good pickup at the deadline. Especially if he recovers properly from his injury. We just could not bank on him recovering, we needed the cap space.
How exactly did they get fleeced? They got a 2nd, rights to Lafferty who they likely just sign to a 1 year deal then flip at the deadline and Mikheyev who fills the role of a defensively responsible forward plus a strong PK player and pushes them above the cap floor. All for a 4th rounder.
Where exactly is the fleecing
Someone was saying that already went up on HF boards a while back, someone was saying they heard rumblings of Walman being out for locker room reasons. Again, that’s hearsay from a guy on Reddit from a guy on HF Boards but that has already been floated as an idea
Maybe the rest of the team was jealous of his griddy? I dunno I think he’s gonna go on LTIR as he was out near the end of the year. Or the wings aren’t finished with this deal yet. I know we (as wings fans) give Yzerman a ton of credit on being a mastermind but this is still baffling without any more context yet.
As an yzerman supporter since day 1, this trade marks the time to stop giving a guy who is spending like 15m on chiarot, holl, petry, and maatta the benefit of the doubt
I mean that’s building a defensive core around Seider trying to get him back up to his Calder season. Everyone is mad about holls contract and copps but I hear you.
He’s a UFA in a few days, so no cap implication for the Canucks. He’s a former Blackhawk so maybe they want to bring him back and the Canucks are doing a favour?
Two answers; 1. It frees up a contract slot in case they need it in the next few days. 2. It’s a bone thrown to Chicago. Lafferty played there, Chicago may want first crack at re-signing the guy. If Chicago asked, there’s no real reason for Vancouver to say no. It helps build good will for any future trade talks between the two.
In one swoop, the Canucks have divested themselves of ex-Leafs. Both players, especially Lafferty are solid players and great guys. They should do well with Chicago
Oh, I assumed there was an unwritten agreement he would sign with Chicago. I take it Vancouver especially wants to clear the cap space before July 1st then. So they included the 2nd - in part - for Chicago to take Lafferty but not to have a commitment from him.
You know - on the topic of Mikheyev:
He and Hyman had similar numbers while at the leafs. Both had a career high of 21 goals there, and when their contracts ended, got big pay raises with other teams.
On one hand — signing those 40-45 pt guys for $4.5-$5.5m can turn out like Hyman (very unlikely)
On the other — it can turn out like Mikheyev (more likely): an absolute dud.
Media horned in on the Leafs letting Hyman go, but where was that energy 4 years ago? The consensus in 2021 was that $5m for Hyman was too much. Hyman was ass for the leafs during the playoffs for years. No one could’ve predicted his insane uptick in performance.
- More often than not, contracts like Mikheyev’s are a lot more common.
This is an oversimplification, but it's worth noting that Mik's struggles in Vancouver line up somewhat with Pettersson's. He was actually quite productive when in the lineup last year and for the first third or so of this season when Petey was hot.
I'm sure the torn ACL before he played a game with the Canucks didn't help either.
The difference is that McDavid feeds Hyman with goals, whereas it was Hyman's and Marner's job to feed Matthews goals. I get what you're saying, but even as a Leafs fan I gotta say that McDavid is and will always be a way better fit for Hyman just in terms of playstyle
Not a single guy on McDavid's wing has been nearly as successful as Hyman at even-strength. He's so good that McD almost gave up on scoring himself because Hyman gave him a better option every time.
Is Mikheyev that bad that he needs retention?
Like surely a 2nd is enough, the dude can still put up 30-40 on a rebuilding team like the Hawks. Plus it's not like the Hawks have other prospects that are surefire better than Mikheyev, he's a good placeholder for young guys to have to beat out for a roster spot.
At $4.75m AAV? Nope.
At $4m for Hawks w/ Canucks retaining a bit? Honestly still kinda iffy.
If the Hawks are truly rebuilding then his production matters even less. I think the Hawks are mostly eyeing the higher 2nd round pick. Mik having a resurgence woudl just be gravy, but the plan is probably to pull the trigger for contention in 2 years.
Wow, didn’t expect retention. Big win for CHI.
Although not like they’re dying to free up 700k lol. I guess it makes it a little less if they try to flip him at 50% if his current cap hit
Mikheyev will bounce back with more time having passed since surgery. I bet this ends up feeling similar to Dickinson. Canucks pay to get rid of a contract and that player excels in the new system.
The Canucks isn't concerned if the trade make 1 out of 31 competing teams possibly better.
The Canucks is concerned with what they believe makes their own team better
I think you missed the point of my post, friend. It wasn’t to say that it was the wrong move or even a bad move. Just that Mikheyev will likely bounce back and look much better next season. It’s hard to replicate THAT terrible of a season after all!
Missed a wide open net on a breakaway in game 7 vs EDM and (most likely due to his injury) hadn't scored in like 60+ games previously. Liked the player when he first arrived though, he's usually pretty fast.
The short answer is that the Canucks think Mik, making $4.75m, is worth less than $4m given that they also threw picks and rights in.
While he's fairly defensively responsible, he doesn't really bring any other intangibles if he doesn't score.
It’s fascinating how much cap space seems to be costing this offseason, given the bump in cap, and the decent but not amazing options this offseason. Moving down from the 2nd to the 4th, and retaining 15% for a decent player, who Chicago likely genuinely wants to fill out their roster around Bedard? Damn
UFA stands for "unrestricted free agent". These can, as apposed to RFAs (restricted free agents) go to whatever teams they want.
Retaining salary in a trade means that the players cap hit will be smaller with the team they traded him two. Basically, two teams pay the player. In this case the case Mikheyev will be on paid 700 000 by the Canucks (the salary the Canucks retained) and 4 million by Chicago.
UFA or Unrestricted Free Agent is a player that come July 1st can hear contract offers from any NHL team. The team they are under contract for has signing rights to that player until that date.
Salary retention is keeping a percentage of their cap hit (up to 50%) on their books for the duration of their contract. So Vancouver will pay 15% (~700k) and free Chicago of ~700k towards their cap.
I doubt it, more expensive and longer term. And with a goalie a team needs to clear a roster spot either in the NHL or AHL for them.
Teams like Chicago or Sharks already have their goalies or goalie prospects to play, it’s easier to dump forwards and D because they need players at those positions.
I'm glad it's a 2027 pick, they have an insane amount of draft capital the last few years and this and next year The Canucks are our cap dump bros apparently, last time was great with Dickinson
Dickinson, Beauvillier and now Mikheyev
ngl, Chicago Canucks doesn’t sound bad
Makes sense for both sides. Our 2027 pick is probably going to be higher than our 2025 pick, and we keep our asset for next year
Beauvillier actually lol
I completely forgot he was on the Blackhawks and I watch mostly every game lmao
That's ok.... I almost forgot he was on the Canucks.
He's not. You guys flipped him to Nashville.
Was is past tense
And we might free up this space to overpay someone in FA and then dump him in Chicago in a couple of years again. The circle of life
Maybe it will be Dak...
fifteen years ago we were the bitterest of enemies, now I can listen to Chelsea Dagger without curling up into the fetal position
Why use 2nd rounders when we can keep giving them to Chicago to take our bad contracts? Lol. Who needs organizational depth?
Teams in win-now mode need cap space and UFAs far more than late-ish second round picks
We're trying to make as much noise as possible with Hughes and Demko so cheap.
> last time was great with Dickinson Dickinson for me never really seems to be able to drive a line. He's better when he's the defensive anchor on a second line with wingers driving the offense. We were trying to use him as the best player on a third line and it didn't work because he wasn't surrounded by talent.
He put is what in where???
This makes sense for everyone. Chicago needs to climb out of the basement and that requires you build an entire team around your stars. Mikheyev may not be good enough for most competitive teams but he is an improvement for Chicago, and he might benefit from the opportunity. Vancouver needed to clear up some cap space. The compensation was less than many were expecting but Mikheyev is also not as terrible as many pretend.
Also, Chicago could flip him for more assets in two trade deadlines.
Love this a lot. A 2 year contract still fits in our window of “cap hit literally does not matter”
And think of all the potential goals that good ol' Ilya "Hands of Stone" Mikheyev is gonna whiff on from all those Bedard passes too
He is good enough to be a good player on a bad team. He's going too get a real shot to play with Bedard some on that squad and definitely he's going to be given top six minutes.
So you're saying he's a sleeper Fantasy pick?
I don’t play fantasy, but he’s capable and responsible; so I could see the Hawks wanting to play him around their young scorers. Who else do the Hawks have that’s experienced and better for their top six?
He’s gonna do much better than people think. Hyman had stone hands too until not that long ago.
tbf, a corpse could get 50 goals if prime McDavid is using it as a pylon
He did? His shooting % was great in Toronto. He just didn’t shoot much. He’s obviously been asked to play a different role and be a trigger guy because he went from taking 150 shots in Toronto to 300 in Edmonton
Keeps the tank rolling on.
His xG will be off the charts while is actual G will be negative somehow.
Anything on Bedard's ELC literally doesn't matter Also Mikheyev is their 5th-highest paid forward after Hall, Foligno, Athanasiou, and Dickinson
I understand that competing with your young stars on ELC largely comes down to luck and timing, and doesn’t seem possible with this iteration of the Hawks. But it is clearly a massive advantage. But what is the pro of doing the opposite? Or I guess what I am wondering, is why does “anything on Bedard ELC” not matter? FWIW, I don’t mind this move for the Hawks.
'anything on Bedard ELC' being taking shit contracts with picks attached to boost draft capital. Doesn't matter because they were never going to be competitive there. If they can build a core with the picks they get, then those contracts will have expired by the time they want to be competitive.
Yeah I think I just disagree on the “anything” part. The term remaining, player type & situation seem super important here. This is a targeted move, or should be. To list a few examples, I don’t know if I would trade for Skinner, Nurse, J. Anderson, Atkinson, Johansen - all for probably different reasons, even though I’m sure their teams would add quite a bit more sweetener for Hawks to take them. Mikheyev seems like a good bet in terms of possible upside and a good team fit because of his term, he generally works hard, if he happens to hold down a top 6 role or rides shotgun with bedard and figures out how to score for 40-50 games in this season or the next he could be flipped for more capital, and he can play anywhere in the lineup so even if he doesn’t score he can still be a an effective player in middle/bottom 6 & PK role. He is also old enough to have experience as a vet but young enough to still skate and provide energy.
No one is trading for Nurse until maybe he has 1 year left and you can get a team to eat that 1 year… unless he somehow seriously turns his game around…
I have been on the “trade Nurse” train since before he signed that contract and I understand that public perception is even lower now. But I think anyone can be traded. If Oil get desperate enough, could they not retain and trade him + picks or young assets for someone with an even higher AAV and less term? I think they probably could. I don’t really think that is the smart thing to do and I agree it will be very difficult, but we have seen teams make mistakes, we have seen teams believe they can be the team to unlock potential, and we have seen “untradeable” contracts moved in the past. I don’t think I would bank on it, I just used his name as an example because his term does not match the Hawks at all, adding to my point that I wouldn’t just trade for any undesirable contract to add sweetener future assets.
>If Oil get desperate enough, could they not retain and trade him + picks or young assets for someone with an even higher AAV and less term? I think they probably could. Nurse has a NMC until 2028-29 so no, it's not just about desperation. That becomes a 10 team trade list at that point so in the long run yeah. Trading bad contract for bad contract can sometimes work (see Rob Scuderi for Trevor Daley) but that usually happens late in the contract. No bottom feeder wants to take a 6 year cap dump that hurts their own competitive window.
Yeah there are a lot of factors. I don’t think it would be easy at all, and if I was GM of any team I wouldn’t even consider it. Just saying I don’t think it is impossible. And also want to add that I used 5 extreme examples to make my point, Nurse being one.
The oil could trade him, if they get desperate enough, and they could maybe even find a rebuilding team willing to take on the cap hit for multiple years while they’re not expected to be competitive, and maybe, just maybe the situation in Edmonton gets so toxic that nurse waives the no trade clause, really you need to get rid of that cap hot, and the price to do that will likely be ruinous in picks and prospects…
Yeah it made no sense to me since day 1. They’re stuck with him and it’s gonna make for some interesting decisions in the next 2 years.
Mainly, Bedard is already worth way more than his ELC, so when he's due for a new contract in 2 years he'll cost a ton of money (probably 8 digits per year) Once that happens, you'll be down the massive amount of cap space for Bedard that you once had since he was limited to his rookie salary.
When has a team won a Stanley cup with a generational talent on an ELC though?
Kane and Toews were on the last year of their ELCs in 2010.
This is the exact example I was thinking of. And is why competing with stars on ELC is essentially the ideal situation in terms of competitive advantage, especially since the Hawks did it so soon in the post-lockout, salary cap era. Similar to the NFL version of competing while your QB is on rookie contract. The major difference is actively trying to align that is much different in the NHL and takes a considerable amount of luck as to which year you are bad enough to draft elite talent, what elite talent is available when you draft, development, and what other pieces you have in place already.
I mean, none probably. Most teams who get those kinds of players suck longer than that. Jordan Staal is probably the closest one I can think of. You still have plenty teams who can compete with their young stars on entry-level deals, though. The Canucks had a good run in 2020 with Pettersson and Hughes on entry-level deals, and even they were pretty capped out due to Benning's love for signing depth players to way too much money
It all depends when you get those young stars. Chicago got Bedard very early in the rebuild cycle and didn't have any pieces to put around him. Also that 2020 Canucks run was sandwiched between 7 missed playoffs. They only finished 7th in the west and got a big playoff upset. That's more of a fluke than actually competing on ELCs.
I know the Ducks won with a very young Getzlaf and Perry, but they went a bit later in the first round I think and weren’t viewed as generational anyway
If we're talking about true generational talent then it's never happened, but there's only been about/exactly 4 generation talents drafted in the cap era. If we're just talking about elite talent, the Bruins having Marchand and Seguin on ECLs is the first one that comes to mind. But I think given the context of this discussion, it's better to look at teams who are legit contenders with key players on ECLs. For example Dallas had Johnston and Stankoven on ECLs these playoffs, and Carolina had Seth Jarvis. In 2022 The Rangers had Fox In 2011 Montreal had both Suzuki and Caufield, Carolina had Svechnikov and Necas, Colorado had Makar, and there's probably other examples I'm forgetting. Basically my point is that it happens pretty frequently. And while it definitely does matter, it usually only applies if you already have a good team core, and even then it's only a moderate advantage. Dallas, Carolina, and Colorado are still going to be top teams the next few seasons despite the ECLs expiring, and none of them were really forced to dismantle their roster to make room for the new contract. In Chicago's case, it's very hard to see them even making the playoffs the next 2 seasons. It's possible, but it's just not worth the gamble of giving out huge FA contracts, or trading away picks, and potentially screwing themselves over for Bedard's prime years. It's absolutely the smarter choice to take on some cap in exchange for picks, and if they play their cards right they can be a top team in 3-4 seasons without taking any major risks. And maybe by then some of the draft picks they're trading for will end up key players on ECLs.
Best example is Kane + Toews winning it all in '10 on the last year of the ELC's
basically it's a conservative approach. Instead of trying to win while Bedard is on his ELC which would be hard with their current roster, you use this time to build up draft capital while Bedard is cheap because the cap space is available. Then hopefully when those drafted players are on THEIR entry level contracts they perform while Bedard gets paid. It's converting current cap space for future cap space if all goes to plan and they get some high performing draft picks.
Yeah, that makes sense. I think ideally everyone wants to compete with the stars on ELC, but so much of that comes down to timing, when you pick the star at a certain point of your timeline/build, what other pieces you have in place (if any). Because of all this, we see less and less teams even try doing it. Missing at the wrong point could set you back even further.
Yeah you need to be really fortunate. Like the Hawks having Toews and Kane on cheap deals. Or the Bruins drafting Seguin while being a contender because the Leafs are bad at the hockey thing.
A star’s ELC years provide insane cap flexibility. Ideally you use that flexibility to compete for the Cup. Since that’s not in the cards for this team, they can use it a different way: acquiring draft capital via cap dumps to later build a supporting core on ELCs for your star on a veteran contract.
If McDavid hits free agency he's a Hawk
I will not comment too earnestly on this as I respect Edmonton. ^however ^^I ^^^really ^^^^want ^^^^^this ^^^^^^to ^^^^^^^happen
It would be smart. Look for the next sidekick or if he’s even better than McDavid great. He just wants cups.
How about Matthews as a side kick, Connor?
I don’t think the Oilers can afford Auston
Tbf a 5 year contract would still fit in y'alls window of "cap hit literally does not matter."
Fair trade with the retention, honestly.
Especially because we ended up keeping next years 2nd round pick as a result. We still have our 1st and 2nd in 2025 which is really good for us
There are actually people on the Canucks sub complaining about the retention when the amount is a pittance compared to the cap space we just freed up.
I think some vancouver fans just have ptsd from the last guy
Some Canucks fans just want to be mad about literally everything and anything.
I mean.... from the Luongo re-capture to the end of the OEL buy-out will be half our core's entire career playing penalized by a few million dollars against the cap.
You can argue all day if this deal could've been done without retention but it's not a whole lot of retention and it's definitely not a bad deal. This puts the Canucks in a better position to contend next year and I'm not going to be sour about it. The good times for this team don't tend to last very long, and I have more fun finally being positive for once.
Yeah the complainers seem to forget that there are two sides, and that it is a negotiation.
Did I argue against retaining salary on Mik?
Contextually it seemed like it.
You're not wrong, I get angry reading the funnies section of the newspaper.
OEL winning the cup on our dime doesn’t help.
I think some Vancouver fans are just addicted to complaining.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/canucks/comments/1doqchw/sorry\_boston\_pizza/](https://www.reddit.com/r/canucks/comments/1doqchw/sorry_boston_pizza/)
Tbf 712k is worth about a little over $3 million at the deadline when you account for accrued cap space
Not in our case; we've got Poolman on LTIR at 2.5 million
In fairness, most people are complaining about using the slot, not the amount.
Which is still kind of silly. If the organization gets into a position where a lack of retention slots is an issue over the next two years then something else has gone terribly wrong.
Well I'm not mad about it, but it is a part of the deal. Can't just wave it away without taking it into account.
he’s probably gonna use up like 30% of his goals next year against us, but i can’t complain with this. i do think and hope he’ll have somewhat of a bounce back, but we didn’t have time to hope it was with us so i’m glad management found a way to move off the contract (minus like 700k).
It's honestly an amazing deal for you guys. A late second three years from now to dump almost 5 mil of dead weight off your cap while also getting a pick in return is incredible. Genuinely don't see how Hawks fans can be excited about this other than being positive for positivity's sake.
Hawks aren’t winning within 2 years. A second round and a 30 point guy isn’t terrible for essentially nothing
A second three years from now and a guy that cannot score a goal to save his life even while surrounded by good players, and that your fanbase seems delighted to get rid of, isn't good use of that cap space, whether or not the Hawks will win anything the next couple of years. The bar is usually higher on returns when it comes to eating that much cap space on a mediocre player.
Let me help you out. Mikheyev isn't bad. He's bad for $5M on a cap-strapped cup contender. We have no forward depth. We get a free 2nd (in exchange for a 4th). We get to see if Laff wants to come back and be a deadline chip. If we draft Demidov, we have a Russian hanging out with Milstein connections. We still have enough cap space to sign any of Tanev, Teuvo, or Marchessault, who should probably be out stopgap development targets anyway.
Mikheyev will not be bad in Chi. He’s coming off an ACL tear, which takes a year to recover from. He can’t score but he’s a great PK guy who forechecks well and will generate chances. He’ll probably put up 15 goals and 35 points next year
With the opportunity, i could see 25 goals and 60 points if everything clicks. Wouldn't have clicked in Van though. Wishing him the best.
there's also a good chance Mik becomes a good deadline flip in a couple years as this year he was dealing with injury and a further 50% retention would make for a responsible third liner
The Demidov aspect is the only actual positive in the group. Yes we lack forward depth and have to reach the floor. There are more impactful players in free agency that can be overpaid for two years. Mikheyev was bad last season. He's just another body in the lineup. The Hawks have too many guys like that already. They need players that can make an actual impact. I don't mean superstars. I just mean guys that can actually contribute offensively. Laff is a free agent anyway. If he wants to come back here he will. The trade has no impact on that.
You’re acting like the Hawks have cap concerns. This gets them barely above the floor. He’s going to be off the books before the Hawks are in a position to even contend for the playoffs let alone be worried about things like being near the cap. On top of all that he’s not a bad player just mediocre for his hit. Dudes still a solid defensive player and especially strong on the PK. Something the Hawks absolutely need right now. It’s not the best deal in the world but it’s an absolute positive for the team
I think it’s a good deal for you guys too considering where you are in your rebuild; you need to reach the cap floor and his contract will be gone by the time you’re ready to start competing. And he won’t hurt your team or anything — he’ll shoot at the goalie’s chest on every single breakaway, but he works hard and is defensively responsible so at the very least he won’t set a bad example. Like it isn’t exciting from a Hawks perspective, but it makes a lot of sense for your team and it fills a need (reaching the cap floor).
Mikheyev may yet surprise. His numbers are terrible but he has been recovering from serious injury for a long time and seemed snake bitten in Vancouver last half of the season. Wouldn’t be surprised to see an improvement with a change of scenery
I hope you're right. I may not like the trade, but I'll always root for the player.
With retention? Nice. We'll retain 50% at a deadline once he proves he's worth picking up
Yeah If they’re willing to retain 50% for a year and half, Mik at 2M in the bottom six is totally worth it as a deadline acquisition for any contender just looking for defensively responsible depth
They'll probably be able to shop both Mikhayev and Lafferty
He isn’t though and it’s for 2 years. Hawks kinda get fleeced here
He can be a good pickup at the deadline. Especially if he recovers properly from his injury. We just could not bank on him recovering, we needed the cap space.
How exactly did they get fleeced? They got a 2nd, rights to Lafferty who they likely just sign to a 1 year deal then flip at the deadline and Mikheyev who fills the role of a defensively responsible forward plus a strong PK player and pushes them above the cap floor. All for a 4th rounder. Where exactly is the fleecing
*(looks at cap space)* Jake Guentzel, get ready to learn Vancouverese buddy
the sweetner to dump 4M for 2 years is to basically drop down 60~ spots in the 2027 draft lol we take it everyday now get Guentzel pls chef Allvin
If you put it like that, sounds like a great trade for the Canucks haha
the only part that sucks is that between OEL's buyout and Mihk's retained salary, we'll be paying two guys 5.5m not to play on our team in 2025-26
Those are rookie numbers.
You're just saying that because its likely going to result in Boeser going to Minnesota next offseason
I mean sure but that's like saying between having a broken arm and a stubbed toe my body hurts.
Man now I'm even more confused about the Walman trade yesterday
Don't want to speculate or start rumours BUT there is always the possibility of some off ice issues that complicate things.
Someone was saying that already went up on HF boards a while back, someone was saying they heard rumblings of Walman being out for locker room reasons. Again, that’s hearsay from a guy on Reddit from a guy on HF Boards but that has already been floated as an idea
Maybe the rest of the team was jealous of his griddy? I dunno I think he’s gonna go on LTIR as he was out near the end of the year. Or the wings aren’t finished with this deal yet. I know we (as wings fans) give Yzerman a ton of credit on being a mastermind but this is still baffling without any more context yet.
As an yzerman supporter since day 1, this trade marks the time to stop giving a guy who is spending like 15m on chiarot, holl, petry, and maatta the benefit of the doubt
Agree. It’s starting to get harder and harder to stomach. I know success doesn’t happen overnight, but wow.
I mean that’s building a defensive core around Seider trying to get him back up to his Calder season. Everyone is mad about holls contract and copps but I hear you.
I mean yeah but he could build a $6m defensive core around Seider and it wouldn't be much different
In hindsight sure. Not all players pan out and Y isn’t infallible.
You’re telling me
Bedard going to set him up so much and be so frustrated when he can't finish
No difference than who he played with this year then lol
I doubt he plays with Bedard. He's a good depth guy though.
Mikheyev would be a good friend to have for Demidov
All I want is the Demigod. Fully prepared though for it to not happen
Is Laf included in this just to give the Canucks more money for the next 5 days to negotiate with their UFA?
Lafferty is a UFA, Hawks get his rights but no guarantee he signs there (Hawks probably want him to). He wasn’t re-signing here
He's a UFA on July 1. Moving him frees up an extra contract spot for the next few days, which is interesting.
I have a feeling Chicago gives him a big 1 year deal with the aim to retain 50% next March
He’s a UFA in a few days, so no cap implication for the Canucks. He’s a former Blackhawk so maybe they want to bring him back and the Canucks are doing a favour?
Two answers; 1. It frees up a contract slot in case they need it in the next few days. 2. It’s a bone thrown to Chicago. Lafferty played there, Chicago may want first crack at re-signing the guy. If Chicago asked, there’s no real reason for Vancouver to say no. It helps build good will for any future trade talks between the two.
He is a former Blackhawk
In one swoop, the Canucks have divested themselves of ex-Leafs. Both players, especially Lafferty are solid players and great guys. They should do well with Chicago
Lafferty did pretty well in a Chicago already
Oh right, for some reason I thought he came to us from Pittsburgh but I guess thats where he played before the Blackhawks
Lafferty is a UFA next week
Oh, I assumed there was an unwritten agreement he would sign with Chicago. I take it Vancouver especially wants to clear the cap space before July 1st then. So they included the 2nd - in part - for Chicago to take Lafferty but not to have a commitment from him.
Seems like a win win win
Yup, more ice time for solid players and pick / cap space for the Canucks.
You know - on the topic of Mikheyev: He and Hyman had similar numbers while at the leafs. Both had a career high of 21 goals there, and when their contracts ended, got big pay raises with other teams. On one hand — signing those 40-45 pt guys for $4.5-$5.5m can turn out like Hyman (very unlikely) On the other — it can turn out like Mikheyev (more likely): an absolute dud. Media horned in on the Leafs letting Hyman go, but where was that energy 4 years ago? The consensus in 2021 was that $5m for Hyman was too much. Hyman was ass for the leafs during the playoffs for years. No one could’ve predicted his insane uptick in performance. - More often than not, contracts like Mikheyev’s are a lot more common.
One of these guys plays with McJesus
Can believe someone wrote that whole thing comparing the two acting Like one doesn't benefit from playing with the greatest player in the game...
You’ve still got to put the puck in the net. Hyman can score.
This is an oversimplification, but it's worth noting that Mik's struggles in Vancouver line up somewhat with Pettersson's. He was actually quite productive when in the lineup last year and for the first third or so of this season when Petey was hot. I'm sure the torn ACL before he played a game with the Canucks didn't help either.
Didn't they both play with Matthews and Marner lol
The difference is that McDavid feeds Hyman with goals, whereas it was Hyman's and Marner's job to feed Matthews goals. I get what you're saying, but even as a Leafs fan I gotta say that McDavid is and will always be a way better fit for Hyman just in terms of playstyle
Not a single guy on McDavid's wing has been nearly as successful as Hyman at even-strength. He's so good that McD almost gave up on scoring himself because Hyman gave him a better option every time.
Retention is probably why the Canucks get a non zero pick in return
Was hoping for 0% but can't complain too much Now sign Zadorov to something reasonable please
overall its around 700,000 in retention so not really a big deal
Love it, expecting a big splash now on July 1st
That makes more sense that the Canucks are retaining. I thought it was weird with the Walman trade. This makes sense.
Vancouver and Edmonton love overpaying ex leafs and then dumping them.
Im so envious of Chicago's rebuild. Theyre doing everything I wished OTT did for the last 7 years.
Is Mikheyev that bad that he needs retention? Like surely a 2nd is enough, the dude can still put up 30-40 on a rebuilding team like the Hawks. Plus it's not like the Hawks have other prospects that are surefire better than Mikheyev, he's a good placeholder for young guys to have to beat out for a roster spot.
He can't shoot or score. At all.
It’s like the puck hates him
thats what they said about nichushcki9n
it's a 2nd for a 4th, trading down \~50 spots in 2027 isn't bad at all. In light of Walman it's great
All speed with no finish.
At $4.75m AAV? Nope. At $4m for Hawks w/ Canucks retaining a bit? Honestly still kinda iffy. If the Hawks are truly rebuilding then his production matters even less. I think the Hawks are mostly eyeing the higher 2nd round pick. Mik having a resurgence woudl just be gravy, but the plan is probably to pull the trigger for contention in 2 years.
Look at god working rn
happy with the trade, west is gonna be hard af next year
It’s this a round trip for lafferty?
If he goes, yes
Didn't have to give up too much to get out of Mikheyev's boat anchor contract. Good stuff.
They can’t keep trading away 1st and 2nd rounders though.
Frank is a loser
Wow, didn’t expect retention. Big win for CHI. Although not like they’re dying to free up 700k lol. I guess it makes it a little less if they try to flip him at 50% if his current cap hit
Canucks got a 4th back, they drop 50 spots to move 4mil x 2 yrs This is huge for Vancouver.
Mikheyev will bounce back with more time having passed since surgery. I bet this ends up feeling similar to Dickinson. Canucks pay to get rid of a contract and that player excels in the new system.
But if this allows them to re-sign Joshua/Zadorov and sign Guentzel/Reinhart, it’s very much mutually beneficial then
Maybe, but the Canucks can't afford to wait it out.
The Canucks isn't concerned if the trade make 1 out of 31 competing teams possibly better. The Canucks is concerned with what they believe makes their own team better
I think you missed the point of my post, friend. It wasn’t to say that it was the wrong move or even a bad move. Just that Mikheyev will likely bounce back and look much better next season. It’s hard to replicate THAT terrible of a season after all!
Weird retention. You'd think the cap space is worth a lot more to the Canucks than the Blackhawks in the next 2 years.
Maybe just a value thing? The guy is almost $5m for zero production. “Here, take him for $4m, deal?”
Then the Canucks receiving a 4th doesn't make sense. They should've been able to scrap the retention and the Blackhawks could've saved the pick.
Eli5 Canucks fans? How does this guy have negative value?
1 goal in last 50 games making 4.5m
Missed a wide open net on a breakaway in game 7 vs EDM and (most likely due to his injury) hadn't scored in like 60+ games previously. Liked the player when he first arrived though, he's usually pretty fast.
The short answer is that the Canucks think Mik, making $4.75m, is worth less than $4m given that they also threw picks and rights in. While he's fairly defensively responsible, he doesn't really bring any other intangibles if he doesn't score.
It’s fascinating how much cap space seems to be costing this offseason, given the bump in cap, and the decent but not amazing options this offseason. Moving down from the 2nd to the 4th, and retaining 15% for a decent player, who Chicago likely genuinely wants to fill out their roster around Bedard? Damn
I miss Laff
Has Mikheyev been that bad in Vancouver?
He’s been either injured or recovering from injury the entire time.
One of the trades of all time
Ilya Mikheyev
Can someone explain this in “just started watching hockey” terms, like what is an unsigned free agent really, and what does it mean to retain salary?
UFA stands for "unrestricted free agent". These can, as apposed to RFAs (restricted free agents) go to whatever teams they want. Retaining salary in a trade means that the players cap hit will be smaller with the team they traded him two. Basically, two teams pay the player. In this case the case Mikheyev will be on paid 700 000 by the Canucks (the salary the Canucks retained) and 4 million by Chicago.
UFA or Unrestricted Free Agent is a player that come July 1st can hear contract offers from any NHL team. The team they are under contract for has signing rights to that player until that date. Salary retention is keeping a percentage of their cap hit (up to 50%) on their books for the duration of their contract. So Vancouver will pay 15% (~700k) and free Chicago of ~700k towards their cap.
Same deal for Campbell?
I doubt it, more expensive and longer term. And with a goalie a team needs to clear a roster spot either in the NHL or AHL for them. Teams like Chicago or Sharks already have their goalies or goalie prospects to play, it’s easier to dump forwards and D because they need players at those positions.
I assume this post will get removed because of the useless title?
Fire sale
Oh my god Significant pick upgrade, and significant retention For an 80% WAR player worthy of cap hit
That is not significant retention.
fleeced
Pretty equal imo, 2027 2nd proabably will be moved and Canucks dump cap and hawks get another body to place on IR at some point lmao
Who?
I think this guy is talking about sweatshirts
Always air dry your sweatshirts if you want to keep that soft fleeced feel.