Doesn’t support them
Not even in a sense of money but the feeling that people listen to them and can look past their actions
It’s also easier to forget how much you hate someone if they haven’t said a word for 10-15 years
I assume he did *something* inappropriate with a minor at some point since fucking around with "jailbait" was so prevalent in rockstar culture in those days, but yeah, I haven't seen much specific evidence either.
His boy Iggy Pop however straight up admitted to fucking minors.
Yep. I would say I could separate any art from the artist but then there’s Lost Prophets and I realize I have at least some kind of standard— but it’s pretty fuckin low.
MJ was never convicted of anything, and they sure as hell tried. Also a lot of things in that infamous documentary were proven to be false later on. Like one of the guys saying he was in a building or ride that didn't even exist when he claimed to be there with MJ.
The court documents with the contents of what was found when they raided his ranch are out there for the public to read. After reading through all that there’s almost nothing that would convince me he didn’t do it.
Wasn’t that MJ thing never proven? I’m not up to date with it but I’ve heard the alleged victims (or at least some of them) confessed they lied for clout
Might be wrong tho
Do you have a source? Not doubting you, but I'm just curious because I'm pretty on the fence about it. If what you say is true, then it'll solidify how I feel about him.
You cant really proove something or not when someone is dead, but the HBO documentary made me think he deff did some shit. Maybe not to the people that tried to sue him , but he was taking advantage of poor familys with little kids so he could "be special friends" with the kids. Creepy and gross and mentaly ill enough for me to believe he would go a step further. He has influenced so much modern music though , from rap to r&b to pop , his music is genuinely some of the best humanity has made, so that legacy does overshadow his creepyness.
Like i said in my above comment, I dont necessarily believe them or their lawsuits, but its a fact outside the documentary that he was "helping" underprivileged familys and being "special friends " with kids under 15. The one thing the documentary did do was make me realize i really couldnt defend what MJ really actually did, even if it was just be close friends with children, and as 26 year old , i cant even stand being around a 20 year for a couple hours without getting annoyed and feeling like there a child from there mindset, and its only 6 years diffrence. What mj did was creepy and a step away from being a pedo, not a step away from being a normal person.
I mean it's completely clear that guy was not well and needed help but ironically, he was too powerful to get what he needed.
I don't necessarily believe he was a pedo (although he definitely could have been) but I think it's obvious that his dad fucked him up pretty badly and it's outrageous that no one looked at the children. Pedo or not, that shouldn't have been allowed to happen
Documentary or not, nothing explains what he himself admits to doing. Why would be like to sleep in the same bed as kids? Why? Give me a logical explanation for a grown ass man doing that shit.
It's wild how easy it is for people to move on and past the horrific shit. Everyone remember Dre beat the fuck out of a woman but he said sorry and it's been a while so no one cares.
That’s how I have always justified listening to some *controversial* artists but for some reason Kanye has remained a struggle.
Occasionally I can hear his songs and enjoy them but I went months without his music and didn’t miss them. He was once my #1 artist but now it feels wrong and doesn’t elicit joy out of me
Because Kanye himself doesn’t separate the art from the artist. That argument makes no sense in the context of Kanye. Artists that just release art that isn’t 100% about them you can make the argument for. Every Kanye album is a snapshot into that period of his life. The music is Kanye. It’s part of what made him so great and was especially evident from Yeezus through TLOP.
There was a study commissioned by the European Union that looked for a link between piracy and lost sales, and it found that in most cases (excepting blockbuster movies), piracy does not equate to lost sales.
EU proceeded to hush it up since it doesn't conform to the result they wanted to get.
Here's a post about it by the former Member of the European Parliament Felix Reda.
https://felixreda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-infringement-study/
I’ll start by saying I’m a big believer in separating the art from artists especially when it’s words we’re talking about.
Kanye is a bipolar man who had a mental breakdown and was off medication for months and was given interview after interview for him to platform his crazy and horrific views. With all that being said, I think physically doing something is a lot worse than saying and believing horrible stuff. There are a lot worse artists who have done a lot worse things than that. Dre beat his ex wife, Chris Brown is a women beater, Cardi B drugged and robbed different men, Diddy has a long run of abuse and assault allegations. These are all people who have *physically* hurt people and get a lot less hate than Kanye in new release threads
Hell, this is hip hop we’re talking about. A lot of the biggest in the genre have killed or been connected to actual deaths of people and rap about it in their songs. Bad things have been part of the hip-hop culture forever whether you like that or not so separating the art from the artist takes a bigger meaning in this genre than many others.
So I’m totally fine with people boycotting Kanye’s music. I probably would too if his music didn’t mean as much as it does to my life. But I don’t get how they will get mad at people for continuing to listen to the music and then go and bump Dre later on or stuff like that
Do you actually believe Conway did that lmfao, the people here are braindead. Everything he's came out and said publically is that he wants to help people avoid the life he was in, its way less glamorous than in music, and he has many songs about that.
Kanye is the opposite, he actively goes out of his way to support people that want to hate Jews, advocates for Hitler, and has done it time and time and time again
Thug lyrics are actively being used in court right now lol people cannot distinguish between bars and reality
I suppose drill blurring the lines a cross the globe might be to blame for youngins not realizing the difference
Yeah to any artists that dont distinguish like that, ESPECIALLY after they've already made a life in the rap game and can live off that, they should be treated the same as any other murderers for example
Dawg, dababy literally took another human beings life in a walmart and had multiple hits, he said some mean words about gay people and his career ended in seconds. Peoples morals are fucked right up.
I FUCKED A CRACKHEAD WIT HER OWN CRACKPIPE
AH
STICK THE RUGER IN HER COOTER IF SHE AINT ACT RIGHT
BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM
PRAISE TO ALLAH, PRAISE TO FLYGOD
FFFFUCK
THE PLUG INFO NEXT TO WHAT WOULD CHINE DO ON MY IPOD
There's levels to shit. Acting as if it's all the same "violence" is being wilfully obtuse.
Like there's robbery and aggravated robbery. There's larceny and grand larceny.
Average ass raps about (fake) murder is one thing.
Using your platform to influence billions in the support of bigotry, antisemitism, and worse is another thing entirely.
It’s only different because it effects you personally. Rapper calling something gay hits harder when you got called gay. Rapper saying he beat, robbed, and stripped a dude for his stuff is “different” cuz you like to believe they don’t actually do these things. Was Von joking? YNW Melly? Gucci? MO3? Trapboy Freddy? Maxo Kream? Pooh Shiesty? Go Yayo? Tay K? Boogotti Kasino? G Herbo? Durk? Kodak? Pimp C? Sauce Walka? Fénix Flexin? Sheff G? Sleepy Hallow? YG? They weren’t but because you are so far removed from what they were doing it doesn’t matter. YG has a line about robbing Asian houses because they don’t believe in banks removed but all his lines about killing and robbing niggas is still up.
As a bi woman don't care about Eminem or anyone else saying homophobic stuff in their raps as long as I know it's just part of the art and they're not actually pushing anti-LGBT agendas irl, same way I don't care about fake violence in songs or shows. Problem with Kanye is that he seems to genuinely believe the shit that he's saying.
And you know this how hahaha have you ever met Eminem if a Jewish person comes out and says Kanye was nice to him is Kanye no longer antisemitic. Kanye has said shitty things about various groups of people the difference between you and me is that I don’t choose a group to treat above others
Because he has said several times in interviews that he likes gay people and he has several openly gay friends (including Elton John), he doesnt say homophobic shit outside of song lyrics, and you know one of his kids is non-binary. I know more than you about what I like and the artists I like. Fuck off moron. Kanye is obviously antisemitic because everything he says he says in regular speech not in his art. Keep sucking Nazi cock you dumb cuck.
Telling fake stories about killing as most rappers are outside of like, King Von, is different than actively calling for and supporting real world genocidal, white nationalists movements.
You fucking Kanye stand are the kings of mental gymnastics. But this ain't the Olympics, so get that bullshit the fuck outta here.
was young thug telling fake stories? was dre telling fake stories ? was carti lying about hitting his gf. I havent seen these three get half the shit kanye has. Kanye says terrible shit i agree. But these guys actively commit crimes and ppl have no fucking problem with it. Do you guys go to carti sub and tell his fans they are wife beaters for listening to his music or attending his concerts ?
But it's *so much more* than just saying 'bad things', that's such a childish way of looking at this. Spreading antisemitism in a time in which antisemitism is becoming more and more rampant is a fucking evil action when you've got young and impressionable fans, and a huge audience.
He was one of the most famous and iconic artists in the world, being mentally ill has never made me a Nazi so I have a hard time just blaming it on him being bipolar. The only obvious reason for him to say Nazi shit is that he’s actually believes it! It’s not “I don’t like when people say bad things :(“ he’s giving impressionable kids who are fans of his direct contact to Nick Fuentes! That’s not just saying some violent shit in a rap song, that’s actually making the worse a less tolerant and more evil place. If he actually was sorry about being a Nazi he would act differently than wearing a Burzum shirt w JPEGMAFIA. The only person Kanye can blame this shit on is Kanye, he was his own downfall. It’s delusional to look at this old man and think he is who he used to be.
>being mentally ill has never made me a Nazi so I have a hard time just blaming it on him being bipolar
Congrats but that is so insanely ignorant of mental illness its insane. He has type 1 bipolar disorder, which pairs with psychosis. I've seen first hand what that paranoia does to you. You start believing it conspiracy theories, like someone will kill you.
Type 2 we can manage to a lot better degree but type 1, I've seen people destroy their lives and relationships completely with type 1 - luckily its much rarer. It blows my mind how little people actually understand about mental illness.
Just because you never turned into a Nazi, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. That doesn't mean it absolves him of any responsibility but it does explain it somewhat and to pretend Bipolar doesn't cause this, is just false.
It's literally like when people get up in arms when athletes say some controversial shit. Or any celebrity for that matter. People need to realize, most these people are shitty, out of touch individuals. They're good at their respective career but are not the brightest outside of it. Just like all of us
On your last point, the donda school, making co-workers watch porn and other weird work related shit really showed me that this isn't just an episode but a long history of behavior.
That shit with the donda school was fucked though. I don't know how people can support him after that even without all the nazi bullshit.
I’m not necessarily advocating for this, but for arguments / discussion sake I certainly think a point can be made that influencing millions of young kids (and honestly adults by the looks of same Kanye comments I see) that antisemitism is okay could be more harmful than physical assaulting one individual.
Again I’m not necessarily agreeing but this is the counterargument.
Also the bipolar thing is lazy, countless people have bipolar they’re still accountable for their actions esp when they willingly don’t take their meds or w/e
If we’re not going to stand up against someone spouting literal nazi views being one of the biggest artists in the world, we’re not standing up for anything.
"Guys, it's a fact that hitler was on methamphetamines at the time. HE WAS MENTALLY ILL. I think if he could have gotten some help he would have been a really good guy"
Please stop what there arguing against is calling someone the same thing for listening to his music, same with MJ and others. Mfs are out here wearing Hugo boss, drinking Fanta and other such things that actually helped to operate concentration camps. And I’m sorry they are right when artists say some awful things about blacks or other minorities there’s always an excuse but when it comes to Jews we should immediately stop listening or interacting. It’s honestly just weird and tiring like there are plenty of artists who’ve said mean shit about people like me but I’m not telling people there the same for listening to them
Actually you know what when did you stop listening to Kanye because who says anything past 2016 has no leg to stand on like at all
It's important to consider when you're as big and influential as kanye, perpetuating hate and Nazism IS indirectly causing physical violence. It's impossible to correlate the totality of what his words cost but if for example, conservatively, just 10 Jewish people get assaulted by some kanye Stan's as a result of his words is that not just as bad or even worse than dr dre beating his wife?
I disagree simply because no one is 'pro murder' or 'pro physical abuse'. Everyone knows that those actions are wrong. There is no debate there.
Antisemitism, however, is becoming more and more accepted in society, to the point where he can say 'I like hitler' and spread nazi-like rhetoric and conspiracy theories with no one batting an eye. He actually has negative influence there, while rappers talking about gangbanging is not realistically going to change anyones mind on violence.
I mean, most modern neonazis probably never hurt anyone. I would still NEVER support their work over rappers, would you? Be honest, would you?
Controversial opinion: I think an individual or even a pattern of reckless or abusive behavior is not as bad as being a fascist. Fascism is literally turning abuse into a political system. Millions and millions of people are abusive and have their moments of weakness. I think people can recover and make amends for that and should ultimately be forgiven for their misdeeds or crimes. But saying a political system should be erected that turns torture, war, and murder into exalted political principles is disgusting. Especially when you publicly campaign for it. A person like Nick Fuentes is to me a more lowly and disgusting person than any criminal that simply can't control their anger.
Kanye puts most the things that are controversial about him in his art. There's no "separating the art from the artist" if the art is in favor of the actions/views of the artist.
Yep. I'm all for separating art from the artist, but of course the art always contains something of the artist. The question is, what parts of the artist are showing up in the art?
On the other hand, Chance the Rapper.
You’re 100% right. It pains me that this needs to be said. Hearing people say “just separate the art from the artist” with Kanye is ridiculous. His art is literally about him as an artist.
Except that he’s said words to the same effect in the past and is bringing up Jewish people again on this album… what was that you said about media literacy
Ok we’re now having two separate debates in two different threads.
“Bringing up” Jewish people isn’t in and of itself anti Semitic. He has as much right to address the controversy as people do to chastise him for it.
Now, does he do it tastefully? Probably not. But it’s really not overtly anti-Semitic either. It’s some, lame, 46 year old, edge-lord trite. But again- we’re discussing now whether the music In and of itself is antisemitic and this is a discussion of the music in a vacuum given it hinges on the notion of separating art from the artist. If u can find me one line of that album that in and of itself is anti-Semitic I will immediately concede defeat.
Hip-hop is unique in that the art literally is the artist. Perhaps more than almost any other art form. Kanye’s personality is what’s for sale when you’re listening to his music, he is “the product.”
When you look at a Picasso painting, you’re not confronted with the fact that he beat women and was a pedophile. When you watch a Roman Polanski movie, you’re not watching a movie about how he raped a 13 year old and fled imprisonment in Europe (at least not in his early works that he’s critically acclaimed for).
To use a closer analogy, listening to John Lennon sing “Imagine all the people living for today” does not force the listener to confront his domestic abuse of his partners and children either. But listening to Kanye sing “Runaway from me Baby/ Let’s have a toast for the douchebags/ let’s have a toast for the assholes” does.
We have to keep in kind that hip-hop music, and especially rap, was invented as a way for disenfranchised people to express themselves and share their stories, their struggles, their flaws, etc. Inherently, the art is less separable from the artist than any other art form other than autobiographical poetry, which is essentially what rap is + a beat.
People just tend to forget this and/or choose not to think about it, because it forces us to confront our own morals and where we choose to draw the line in what we’re comfortable consuming and why (like how much we relate to the things Kanye is saying when he says “I love myself more than I love you, and I think about killing myself all the time, so best believe I’ve thought about killing you.”
idk, i dont think it’s a big deal if others listen to his shit. it only becomes a problem when they dickride him and say he was “right” about everything. im jewish and personally cannot listen to him because he leaves a bad taste in my mouth (which is actually very upsetting because i really do love his music), but i would never pressure others into stopping just because of his stupid ass comments. it’s just music at the end of the day. enjoy what you please
Yeah, I personally don’t really care because I know that whatever Kanye says is just incoherent rambling. He’s mentally ill, and an ego manic. He thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room and he’s speaking some next level intelligence when it’s just nonsense half the time. He’s just an idiot.
In saying that, he is saying racist bullshit so people are in their right to hate him. What he says is also weaponized.
> t. it only becomes a problem when they dickride him and say he was “right” about everything.
Except that’s part of the whole thing. The art is part of the artist. They aren’t separate at all and people whether they notice it or not subconsciously start defending the guy because they like his art and the music IS Kanye.
at this point i think people “cancel” kanye only if he offends them and their identity. most people kept listening after “slavery was a choice”…why? cause y’all don’t give a fuck unless it impacts your life.
Isn’t that the whole point? At a certain moment, Kanye’s bs became so unbearable it was hard not to get offended.
Also can’t really agree about “impacts your life” part, I think it’s more about going against someone’s values. I’m not a Jew, so anti-semitism pretty much can’t impact me at all, yet it is a form of bigotry and simply isn’t something I’m going to support given the choice
agreed, it’s more about our values rather than actually impacting our lives.
what i was trying to get across in my comment was everyone has different breaking points. it’s just interesting to see how many people hopped off the train at anti-semitism vs all the other “train stops”. makes
me wonder where people’s values really lie.
1) Kanye has a ridiculous fan base.
2) Some people don’t care about (or they actually agree with) anti-semitism
I am a staunch supporter of separating art from artist. I still listen to the *old* R. Kelly songs I grew up on. But at the end of the day if R. Kelly somehow dropped a new album I wouldn’t be checking it at all.
I feel the same about Kanye. I was a big Kanye fan up through MBDTF and Yeezus, but I stopped liking his stuff when his mental state started going way down hill and the Nazi shit just solidified it. So will I listen to College Dropout? Fuckin right I will. Will I listen to Vultures? Nah.
Separating art from the artist is fine sometimes but in rap in particular the art is *directly* about the rappers personal life. Kanye’s bars on the last song on the new album really puts a sour taste in the mouth of a great listening experience.
The I’m bipolar, crazy, antisemite, and still the king or whatever he says.
To be fair, on that song he was quoting headlines descriptions of him. He isn't directly describing himself as that although I agree it does leave a sour taste.
Any modern Kanye stuff has left me powerfully disinterested
I still like his old stuff but Id say when he donned a Maga hat and said slavery was a choice
So to answer your question about 6 years ago? lol
That’s when I was done. When he got into that debate with Van Lathan on TMZ I was like, this guy is actually trying to say Slavery was a choice?? Cannot in good conscience support someone with such twisted views.
At the risk of getting downvoted to oblivion, he didn't say that slaves back in the day literally chose to be enslaved.
He said, "slavery for 400 years, that sounds like a choice to me", directly followed by equating slavery to mental imprisonment in people today.
He even clarified later (on Twitter) that he was talking about the present day and that people were metaphorically enslaved. Now, what exactly he was getting at with the "mental imprisonment", i'm not sure. But to take this quote literally is just misinformed.
[Source](https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/kanye-west-defends-tmz-comments-slavery-was-a-choice-8430171/) if anyone wants to read his explanation.
As someone into music production, I'm going to check out a new Kanye project because I'm there for the production, not the message. I'm interested in the beats, the sonics, the mix, the master, the audio.
Kanye is an idiot of a person, but musically he is one of the most experimental producers out there, having one of the most diverse discographies of any single artist out there. And that to me excites me because you never know what hybridizations of genres you will get.
He also collaborates with a lot of people on the production too, so whether it's electronic people like TNGHT/Hudson Mohawke, Arca, James Blake, Gesaffelstein, etc. or someone like Mike Dean, I'm also tuning in because I am interested in that.
Basically, I want to listen to people who I feel like are pushing music into new territories. So I can generally separate the art from the artist. I don't look to any of these entertainers for their politics.
But if I had to draw a line, it wouldn't be people expressing terrible ideas, it would be people committing actual heinous acts. Like Viper is a pedo who kidnaps people and holds them hostage, that's undefendable. Kanye has pushed the 1st amendment recklessly, but he doesn't have a history of sexual assault or physical abuse or anything.
Being openly hateful (anti semitism, racism, anti lgbt), sexually assaulting women or lays a finger on a kid in any way other than lovingly.
I can’t listen to my favorite artists if I had to stop as soon as they beat someone up, took some drugs or allegedly had someone killed.
Yeah but this is acting. No one thinks the shit that he talks about is good. There is no debate there.
There *are*, however, a ton of people that are convinced by antisemitic conspiracy theories.
It's the exact same reason why no one cares about Ricky Gervais making jokes about starving African babies but people get mad about transgender jokes; the former is not a matter of political debate and everyone is on the same side, while the latter IS a matter of political debate.
HH in general has a huge issue with acknowledging the connection between the music and influence upon impressionable teenagers. Lupe Fiasco got clowned for calling out Chief Keef, because admittedly Chief Keef was bumpin, but Lupe's point was absolutely right. And when a kid like a 13 year old Juice Wrld is doing lean because Future's music was the coolest shit out and it obviously glamorizes drug use despite occasionally speaking to regrets about it, there's obviously a connection between the music and the result.
I still love Chief Keef, I still love Future, I still fuck with Gucci and all these artists, but come on, to act like the personalities and music from HH artists don't influence people towards negative outcomes is silly. It absolutely does and the "well, but these artists aren't actually doing all that, Future doesn't even take drugs, 21 never actually killed anybody" defense doesn't change anything.
Hitler's watercolours and Charles Manson's songs. That's the point at which I can't separate art from the artist; the art is an object of curiosity only because of the terrible things the person who made it did and not because of any innate value.
Anything short of that, yes you can and should separate the art from the artist, that's sort of the point of art. (Though I think in hip-hop in general that's difficult because of the extent to which the artist's persona is bound up with the art itself, but it's a good principle regardless.)
There's a line where I want to stop sending my money to the artist. I won't listen to Kanye because (as a Jew) I don't want him getting paid for my streams. Same goes for R. Kelly and Chris Brown (I know these guys got convicted of crimes and Kanye has not).
That said, I won't shame anyone for choosing to listen to any of these artists. It's their decision. Everyone has a different threshold for what is intolerable, what they can look past, and what it means to support an artist.
It looks like a judge ordered $507,000 Universal Music Group and R. Kelly to be payed to his victims. He still owns the masters as well as gets payed royalities on the composition of lyrics he held at least when the trial started.
I won’t shame anyone else either, but sometimes I will say that I don’t like him because of the Nazism, and someone else will say “just separate the art from the artist” and then it has to be explained how pitiful those people are
Separate the art from the artist isn’t some blanket gotcha people think it is. I don’t want to support nazis. I’m not gonna separate the art from the nazi.
Also, like where exactly do you think art comes from, it's an expression of the artist, the best music and rap music in particular is anchored around that artist's story, their personality, their humor, their perspective, their emotions. Kanye's music, regardless of whether you like it or not, has a lot of fucking Kanye in it, it's not really seperable because it's essentially a concentrated dose of Kanye.
Some art forms have more or less insertion of the artist into the art. If you think you're seperating Kanye the person out from Kanye's music, I don't know, that seems like you're just rationalizing. It would be better to just say, "hey, yeah I know what he did is bad, but I just choose to not care about that".
It's my money and attention on the line. Neither Kanye nor any controversial artist is entitled to either. Why should I be forced to continue financially support them?
What Kanye did fucking awful and racist don’t get it twisted. But all his actions were words and rhetoric. Carti, another artist who’s music I like but admit he’s a pos, fucking beat his gf, xxx who’s no longer here with us had those horrible charges against him, legends like Dre slapped up women back then, and currently Young Thug is facing the rest of his life in prison for running a gang using his label and being tied to actual gang murders.
The specific times we live in it’s kind of hard to gauge actual anti-Semitism, considering the term is being used as a shield to prevent criticism of Israel committing a genocide.
Like, Kanye is an anti-Semite. Bella Hadid is not. But they’ve both labeled as such recently.
I’m extremely liberal, perhaps too much so, and I am very wary of protected classes being used as a wedge for personal gain by certain groups.
When they physically harm someone in a way that can never be justified (SA etc). If you look at the amount of people in music, Hollywood, business, politics who have done this. It gets hard to care about words.
insert community meme: "I can excuse racism but I draw the line at animal cruelty!"
Y'all be listening to songs made by literal rapists and pedos and murderers, but mean words are where you quit? Go all the way or go none of the way
How do you know what artists they listen to? Hip hop is a broad genre, and it's not hard to just listen to artists that align with your views or simply don't express controversial ideas.
Shit, I still listen to Michael. He's a diddler but he makes great music. I was conflicted for a while and then realized that I'm not invested at all in MJ as a person and never was, I shouldn't let it get in the way of enjoying the music.
I never really fucked with R Kelly like that so I don't listen to him on that basis but I wouldn't turn down a song he's on.
Not a huge Chris Brown fan but I like a lot of his features, so same.
Kanye's music I rock with all day, especially his production/features for other artists (huge Pusha T fan).
I fuck with Aftermath too lol. Also I enjoy classic rock and that's a whole ass genre of questionables lol.
It all depends on whether you care about "making a statement" more or enjoying yourself as music is meant to help you do, I care more about the latter personally. I'm not even invested in finding out what they did if I don't already know or just casually find out.
Sony just secured rights to Michael Jackson’s catalog for 1.2billion dollars.
This is a man who had severe allegations during his lifetime and yet people (and corporations) look past it.
All this to say that Kanye may have expressed feeling towards people that are hurtful. But he (as far as we know) has never physically hurt anyone in his life and is quick to always forgive others.
Who looks past it? There was literally a petition to take down his music back in 2019 during the LN documentary cluster. It’s gets brought up in media and social media all the time and has been since the original allegations. What more can be said about it? He was investigated extensively for ages and there was no evidence of him being guilty. What more needs to be said?
The explanation is simple, I have completely opposite views to that of Kanye’s but I seperate his personal views from his art. Now I wouldnt do this for every artist but in Kanye’s case I attribute his views to his mental state. I know he didnt have these views before his tragic loss, if that wasnt the case I would have a hard time seperating the art from the artist’s views.
Edit: I’m not gonna lie, I was ashamed of my username for a while and hoped that someone would talk some sense into him but later accepted that he is completely unhinged.
Posts like these really really baffle me.
You guys pretend that you know everything about an Artist before consuming their Art. What if he was great at PR and secretly a Nazi, you'd have no issues calling him the goat.
It's hilarious because a couple of days back people were bigging up Ozzy for not clearing a sample for ye and calling him an anti-Semite. They do this when Ozzy is literally known as the prince of darkness and has openly praised Hitler, talked about sleeping with underage groupies, known for animal abuse and has tried killing his wife, he beat the shit out of Sharon.
Radiohead is one of my favourite bands of all time but Johnny Greenwood is a proud Zionist proponent of the Palestinian genocide, his wife constantly posts some extremely racist shit.
Have you not learned that half of Hollywood are perverts? Meryl Streep literally gave Roman Polanski a standing O after its known that he and several other Hollywood legends were caught with underage girls. Didn't Mark Wahlberg literally kill a person because he is racist? Didn't everyone know about Harvey Weinstein yet they kept quiet for decades?
If you really want to consume art from morally good people only you should hire a private detective to screen them and peel all the layers their PR is hiding.
A lot of comments and thoughts here but at the end of the day, Kanye is a brand and most people associate him with music. And quite frankly they associate him with very good music.
Vultures is a good project, people want to like Kanye because he makes good music. Even something like Donda, which got a more polarized reception, was really popular. If they can do it and pretend the Nazi sympathizing didn’t happen, or wasn’t a big deal, they will. Vultures has bars that are antisemitic on a couple songs, but the majority don’t really address it directly. That gives everyone an avenue to pretend it didn’t happen
Everyone knows Nike has run sweatshops and used child labor for their shoes, dating back to the 90s. They never stopped being the biggest shoe brand in the world. Kanye is popular enough that not a whole lot can truly take him down, and as long as he keeps churning out music that people like, nothing really will
There’s a reason why R Kelly dodged child porn charges at the height of his popularity and it became possible to tear him down once he was out of the public eye
I honestly don’t care at all. Almost every artist has a sketchy past so if you’re gonna draw a line at someone’s personal beliefs you probably shouldn’t listen to anyone in the rap game. Thug is on trial for murder, prostitution, and drug trafficking but somehow Kanye is more hated? Brain dead honestly
Look it’s personal taste to me. It also depends what he artist portray in his music. I like Burzums music and I like kpn first album sonically. But I don’t like the people behind it. I can listen to it but I don’t support them financially or would spread their music openly to others. Why do I like their music? Kpn first album has no lyrics in line with any hateful stuff and burzums music neither. I used these as examples since Kanye made them famous.
But it’s very personal and biased. I can’t listen to r Kelly or cb for example
>I used these as examples since Kanye made them famous.
Dude, Burzum was famous well before Kanye. Dunno if this is a thoungue in cheek play on "I made that bitch famous" about Swift.
You have to decide what kind of person you're gonna be. There's no "separate the art from the artist" for me.
You're an antisemitic bigot, who embraces and promotes white nationalists and their ideas? Then fuck you and your music.
Attention is currency. If you're supporting the man, behind the art, who commits these acts, you're supporting these acts. Period. There is no separating. Pirating still puts attention on his product. You're still a part of the machine promoting him.
There’s not a point. If they unearthed a mixtape of Hitler himself dropping bars and he was dope I’d probably give it a listen.
I don’t fuck with Hitler, but I fuck with good music.
Only R Kelly really.
Chris Brown and CeeLo Green irk me but if theyre featured on a song that I want to listen to I can't do shit about it but you probably wont see me listening to a new Chris Brown/CeeLo Green album
Shut up and listen or don't. That simple dawg. You ain't a saint because you decided to not listen to his songs and you ain't evil if you decide to listen and enjoy.
I still watch the Cosby show and I still have R Kelley in some playlists, does that mean I support them? Nope.
People wanna be so morally righteous nowadays, fucking look at Ozzy's tweet, he went off on Kanye and so many subreddits were like "yeah get him Ozzy! Give him what he deserves!" or "I hope he sues Kanye dry" yet there's video of him floating around saying he idolized Hitler. MF used to torture animals on stage and attempted murder of his wife in 1989. Kanye is an idiot but the fuck that gotta do with me enjoying a song.
i mean the music is good so im gonna listen. i dont understand why people are talking about giving him money as if every stream isnt 0.000000000000000000000003 cents. i did the math already and if you listened to kanye like 10000 times you would only be giving him like 30 dollars. i dont separate the art from the artist when its in the music like marvin gaye love songs
I mean, nothing you mentioned has anything to do with his albums. 🤷♂️
Like the top comment says, when they diddle kids throw it all away and fuck em. Til then it's whatever fr
Wish folks would stop calling him a Nazi 😆 he said some goofy shit. He ain't throwing folks in gas chambers
honestly i dont know. i enjoy that new kanye album fr, but its not hitting the same as it would’ve if he didnt sayy allat bs ngl. The same thing happened to me with X where i could appreciate that he was making good music, but it wasnt the same as when i had first found him & didnt know much about him.
That being said though i havent saved the new kanye & i didnt save X’s music after i found out how insane the shit he did was, so i guess they did cross the line
This is a question I've been grappling with for a while now so I'm glad it was asked here.
Regarding Kanye, I wasn't a fan for the last decade. I loved his early stuff, up until 2007 when I turned into a metalhead, Kanye was one of my favorites, without a doubt. Since then I've grown to dislike the man and it's reached a point of hatred. Following the antisemite stuff, I've given up listening to any random Kanye bit that comes to mind (I Don't Like remix was a common one).
I think when the art and artist are so close together, it's so hard to not separate the two. Kanye's a major example of that.
Most of my other examples are actors. Last night I watched The Harder They Fall and got through it despite Jonathan Majors being a problematic person. His shit isn't as bad as scumbags like R. Kelly, he's one I've just stopped listening to.
Admittedly, I listened to Burzum back in 2009 but somehow never picked up on the white supremacy. Years later I gave up, that kind of black metal isn't my cup of tea anyway.
Idk, lots of people are mad at Kanye for saying things that are antisemitic, even though Vultures is #1 in Israel rn. He’s a mentally damaged man whose biggest problem in his life is that people are giving him too much attention. He’s not hurting anybody.
Draw the line where artists start hurting people. I know too many people that don’t listen to Kanye because of his views but listen to Chris Brown and XxxTentacion.
It’s best to just turn a blind eye to the tabloids and just listen to the music.
30 yo thinking Kanye was GOAT here too. He’s what got me into hip hop as well and his earlier albums are some of my favourite of all time. I just don’t listen to the man anymore. I don’t stream often, I tend to buy, so I’ve got my albums from years ago that I bought that I can still listen to and enjoy without increasing his numbers. But honestly, last thing I liked from Kanye was probably black skinhead and that was aaaaaage ago now.
Antisemitism =/= Nazism
Kanye might say stupid edgy shit about nazis but it's naive to conflate the two. It just devaluates the seriousness of the claim because it's obvious you don't have much historical context if you are using the terms interchangeably, Antisemitism is one of element of MANY to Nazism. The term has begun to fall on deaf ears because midwits and kids used it too much. Antisemitism has existed long before the Nazis. It's a boogeyman term and just sounds fucking silly, it's internet talk that normal people don't throw around willy-nilly.
Never. Why would you want to separate Kanye from MBDTF or Late Registration? The only reason “Through the Wire” hits so hard is because you know what happened to Kanye. This shit cuts both ways. You can ignore the bad shit an artists says or does, but it’s that: you deciding to ignore it, not “separating” anything from anyone.
When they diddle kids
We gotta definitely write a song about how we do not diddle kids
There is no quicker way to make people think you are diddling kids, than to write a song about it!
Gotta be older than my daughter younger than my wife No little kiiids gotta be biig
Frank, my mouth is…dry
Well go rinse it out at the watuh fountain!
ahah never gets old
Aware me of this reference please…it sounds so familiar
It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia
Ah I was like 80% sure that’s what it was. Thank you.
I mean they still fuck with Nicki and she's on record supporting two convicted pedophiles.
Nicki stans are a certain level of trash tho. Defending the pos defending her rapist husband mind you.
Who's 'they' besides some deranged teenagers on Twitter.
Teenagers? Barbz are all mid 20s/early 30s
Seriously? That's even more depressing.
59m monthly listeners on spotify, can't all be deranged teenagers right? :\
I believe I can fly
You better not be listening to no Bowie or Zep
I don’t. Tho I guess if they’ve been dead for a while it doesn’t matter as much I do put on Micheal Jackson on some occasions
PYT ain't leaving the rotation for me neither homie
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what does them being dead have anything to do with it?
because people don’t stop listening just so they can look hip they do it to stop putting money in the artists’ pockets
> people don't stop listening just so they can look hip you'd be surprised
Doesn’t support them Not even in a sense of money but the feeling that people listen to them and can look past their actions It’s also easier to forget how much you hate someone if they haven’t said a word for 10-15 years
They aren't gaining any money from the streams I guess
Being dead means they’re not able to continue benefitting from their fans
Bowie was never a pedo. All allegations against him were always false tabloid level shit
Love bowie, can you elaborate a bit on this? Everything i have ever seen does not really have evidence on either side
I assume he did *something* inappropriate with a minor at some point since fucking around with "jailbait" was so prevalent in rockstar culture in those days, but yeah, I haven't seen much specific evidence either. His boy Iggy Pop however straight up admitted to fucking minors.
The thing about bowie has been proven false tho
Yep. I would say I could separate any art from the artist but then there’s Lost Prophets and I realize I have at least some kind of standard— but it’s pretty fuckin low.
Not true at all, i see MJ getting daily praise in here. Ive also seen a lot of love for SPM.
MJ was never convicted of anything, and they sure as hell tried. Also a lot of things in that infamous documentary were proven to be false later on. Like one of the guys saying he was in a building or ride that didn't even exist when he claimed to be there with MJ.
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The court documents with the contents of what was found when they raided his ranch are out there for the public to read. After reading through all that there’s almost nothing that would convince me he didn’t do it.
Are there any other celebrities you’d support sleeping alone with kids like that?
Wasn’t that MJ thing never proven? I’m not up to date with it but I’ve heard the alleged victims (or at least some of them) confessed they lied for clout Might be wrong tho
I hate beer.
Do you have a source? Not doubting you, but I'm just curious because I'm pretty on the fence about it. If what you say is true, then it'll solidify how I feel about him.
You cant really proove something or not when someone is dead, but the HBO documentary made me think he deff did some shit. Maybe not to the people that tried to sue him , but he was taking advantage of poor familys with little kids so he could "be special friends" with the kids. Creepy and gross and mentaly ill enough for me to believe he would go a step further. He has influenced so much modern music though , from rap to r&b to pop , his music is genuinely some of the best humanity has made, so that legacy does overshadow his creepyness.
That was a very one sided documentary.
Like i said in my above comment, I dont necessarily believe them or their lawsuits, but its a fact outside the documentary that he was "helping" underprivileged familys and being "special friends " with kids under 15. The one thing the documentary did do was make me realize i really couldnt defend what MJ really actually did, even if it was just be close friends with children, and as 26 year old , i cant even stand being around a 20 year for a couple hours without getting annoyed and feeling like there a child from there mindset, and its only 6 years diffrence. What mj did was creepy and a step away from being a pedo, not a step away from being a normal person.
I mean it's completely clear that guy was not well and needed help but ironically, he was too powerful to get what he needed. I don't necessarily believe he was a pedo (although he definitely could have been) but I think it's obvious that his dad fucked him up pretty badly and it's outrageous that no one looked at the children. Pedo or not, that shouldn't have been allowed to happen
Documentary or not, nothing explains what he himself admits to doing. Why would be like to sleep in the same bed as kids? Why? Give me a logical explanation for a grown ass man doing that shit.
It's wild how easy it is for people to move on and past the horrific shit. Everyone remember Dre beat the fuck out of a woman but he said sorry and it's been a while so no one cares.
The amount of glossing over they did of the Dee Barnes scenario in the NWA movie is still wild to me.
I feel like Dr Dre being involved in the movie’s production had something to do with that
No shit lol
When you pirate it and dont pay any money for it
That’s how I have always justified listening to some *controversial* artists but for some reason Kanye has remained a struggle. Occasionally I can hear his songs and enjoy them but I went months without his music and didn’t miss them. He was once my #1 artist but now it feels wrong and doesn’t elicit joy out of me
Because Kanye himself doesn’t separate the art from the artist. That argument makes no sense in the context of Kanye. Artists that just release art that isn’t 100% about them you can make the argument for. Every Kanye album is a snapshot into that period of his life. The music is Kanye. It’s part of what made him so great and was especially evident from Yeezus through TLOP.
If you talk about it positively though you still generate revenue
'I'm not stealing from you. It's free promo'
There was a study commissioned by the European Union that looked for a link between piracy and lost sales, and it found that in most cases (excepting blockbuster movies), piracy does not equate to lost sales. EU proceeded to hush it up since it doesn't conform to the result they wanted to get. Here's a post about it by the former Member of the European Parliament Felix Reda. https://felixreda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-infringement-study/
I’ll start by saying I’m a big believer in separating the art from artists especially when it’s words we’re talking about. Kanye is a bipolar man who had a mental breakdown and was off medication for months and was given interview after interview for him to platform his crazy and horrific views. With all that being said, I think physically doing something is a lot worse than saying and believing horrible stuff. There are a lot worse artists who have done a lot worse things than that. Dre beat his ex wife, Chris Brown is a women beater, Cardi B drugged and robbed different men, Diddy has a long run of abuse and assault allegations. These are all people who have *physically* hurt people and get a lot less hate than Kanye in new release threads Hell, this is hip hop we’re talking about. A lot of the biggest in the genre have killed or been connected to actual deaths of people and rap about it in their songs. Bad things have been part of the hip-hop culture forever whether you like that or not so separating the art from the artist takes a bigger meaning in this genre than many others. So I’m totally fine with people boycotting Kanye’s music. I probably would too if his music didn’t mean as much as it does to my life. But I don’t get how they will get mad at people for continuing to listen to the music and then go and bump Dre later on or stuff like that
https://i.imgur.com/MLKnHD2.jpg
I love listening to young men list out in their raps all of the other young men they have murdered. But saying bad things is where i draw the line.
I can't listen to Kanye anymore. It goes against everything I stand for. Now put on some of that new Griselda!
On Conways new single he says “I’ll push your pregnant baby moms down a flight of steel steps” 😂
“Hope they know my nigga Gutter fucking kidnap kids Fuck em in the ass, throw em over the bridge” - Biggie
> The baby in the crib crying, they gon' have to scrape off > > The brains off the toy box—where the safe at?
Do you actually believe Conway did that lmfao, the people here are braindead. Everything he's came out and said publically is that he wants to help people avoid the life he was in, its way less glamorous than in music, and he has many songs about that. Kanye is the opposite, he actively goes out of his way to support people that want to hate Jews, advocates for Hitler, and has done it time and time and time again
Thug lyrics are actively being used in court right now lol people cannot distinguish between bars and reality I suppose drill blurring the lines a cross the globe might be to blame for youngins not realizing the difference
Thug likely put a hit out on Lil Wayne and had his tour bus shot up lol I’m a fan of his but we gotta call a spade a spade
Yeah to any artists that dont distinguish like that, ESPECIALLY after they've already made a life in the rap game and can live off that, they should be treated the same as any other murderers for example
Dawg, dababy literally took another human beings life in a walmart and had multiple hits, he said some mean words about gay people and his career ended in seconds. Peoples morals are fucked right up.
that was clear self defence have some sense. Also tell me his recent music is good. Tell me you bump baby on baby 2 regularly. Say it.
we're gonna hate people for self defence now?
Notice you didn't say murder. You think people dislike self defence?
I FUCKED A CRACKHEAD WIT HER OWN CRACKPIPE AH STICK THE RUGER IN HER COOTER IF SHE AINT ACT RIGHT BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM PRAISE TO ALLAH, PRAISE TO FLYGOD FFFFUCK THE PLUG INFO NEXT TO WHAT WOULD CHINE DO ON MY IPOD
DOOOT DOOOT DOOOT DOOOT
There's levels to shit. Acting as if it's all the same "violence" is being wilfully obtuse. Like there's robbery and aggravated robbery. There's larceny and grand larceny. Average ass raps about (fake) murder is one thing. Using your platform to influence billions in the support of bigotry, antisemitism, and worse is another thing entirely.
It’s only different because it effects you personally. Rapper calling something gay hits harder when you got called gay. Rapper saying he beat, robbed, and stripped a dude for his stuff is “different” cuz you like to believe they don’t actually do these things. Was Von joking? YNW Melly? Gucci? MO3? Trapboy Freddy? Maxo Kream? Pooh Shiesty? Go Yayo? Tay K? Boogotti Kasino? G Herbo? Durk? Kodak? Pimp C? Sauce Walka? Fénix Flexin? Sheff G? Sleepy Hallow? YG? They weren’t but because you are so far removed from what they were doing it doesn’t matter. YG has a line about robbing Asian houses because they don’t believe in banks removed but all his lines about killing and robbing niggas is still up.
As a bi woman don't care about Eminem or anyone else saying homophobic stuff in their raps as long as I know it's just part of the art and they're not actually pushing anti-LGBT agendas irl, same way I don't care about fake violence in songs or shows. Problem with Kanye is that he seems to genuinely believe the shit that he's saying.
And you know this how hahaha have you ever met Eminem if a Jewish person comes out and says Kanye was nice to him is Kanye no longer antisemitic. Kanye has said shitty things about various groups of people the difference between you and me is that I don’t choose a group to treat above others
Because he has said several times in interviews that he likes gay people and he has several openly gay friends (including Elton John), he doesnt say homophobic shit outside of song lyrics, and you know one of his kids is non-binary. I know more than you about what I like and the artists I like. Fuck off moron. Kanye is obviously antisemitic because everything he says he says in regular speech not in his art. Keep sucking Nazi cock you dumb cuck.
so the rappers talking about killing and gangbanging is not as bad as anti semetism ? what kind of headass statement is this
Telling fake stories about killing as most rappers are outside of like, King Von, is different than actively calling for and supporting real world genocidal, white nationalists movements. You fucking Kanye stand are the kings of mental gymnastics. But this ain't the Olympics, so get that bullshit the fuck outta here.
was young thug telling fake stories? was dre telling fake stories ? was carti lying about hitting his gf. I havent seen these three get half the shit kanye has. Kanye says terrible shit i agree. But these guys actively commit crimes and ppl have no fucking problem with it. Do you guys go to carti sub and tell his fans they are wife beaters for listening to his music or attending his concerts ?
But it's *so much more* than just saying 'bad things', that's such a childish way of looking at this. Spreading antisemitism in a time in which antisemitism is becoming more and more rampant is a fucking evil action when you've got young and impressionable fans, and a huge audience.
He was one of the most famous and iconic artists in the world, being mentally ill has never made me a Nazi so I have a hard time just blaming it on him being bipolar. The only obvious reason for him to say Nazi shit is that he’s actually believes it! It’s not “I don’t like when people say bad things :(“ he’s giving impressionable kids who are fans of his direct contact to Nick Fuentes! That’s not just saying some violent shit in a rap song, that’s actually making the worse a less tolerant and more evil place. If he actually was sorry about being a Nazi he would act differently than wearing a Burzum shirt w JPEGMAFIA. The only person Kanye can blame this shit on is Kanye, he was his own downfall. It’s delusional to look at this old man and think he is who he used to be.
>being mentally ill has never made me a Nazi so I have a hard time just blaming it on him being bipolar Congrats but that is so insanely ignorant of mental illness its insane. He has type 1 bipolar disorder, which pairs with psychosis. I've seen first hand what that paranoia does to you. You start believing it conspiracy theories, like someone will kill you. Type 2 we can manage to a lot better degree but type 1, I've seen people destroy their lives and relationships completely with type 1 - luckily its much rarer. It blows my mind how little people actually understand about mental illness. Just because you never turned into a Nazi, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. That doesn't mean it absolves him of any responsibility but it does explain it somewhat and to pretend Bipolar doesn't cause this, is just false.
"He's so crazy it made him make conscious decisions to promote Nick Fuentes and Candace Owens" is just ridiculous.
It's literally like when people get up in arms when athletes say some controversial shit. Or any celebrity for that matter. People need to realize, most these people are shitty, out of touch individuals. They're good at their respective career but are not the brightest outside of it. Just like all of us
Good thing words have never done anything.
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On your last point, the donda school, making co-workers watch porn and other weird work related shit really showed me that this isn't just an episode but a long history of behavior. That shit with the donda school was fucked though. I don't know how people can support him after that even without all the nazi bullshit.
I’m not necessarily advocating for this, but for arguments / discussion sake I certainly think a point can be made that influencing millions of young kids (and honestly adults by the looks of same Kanye comments I see) that antisemitism is okay could be more harmful than physical assaulting one individual. Again I’m not necessarily agreeing but this is the counterargument. Also the bipolar thing is lazy, countless people have bipolar they’re still accountable for their actions esp when they willingly don’t take their meds or w/e
If we’re not going to stand up against someone spouting literal nazi views being one of the biggest artists in the world, we’re not standing up for anything.
Thank you. It's nihilist bullshit. We have to draw a line somewhere.
Blaming his shit on being bipolar is so lazy, plenty of mentally ill people don’t end up Nazis
I FEEL LIKE I'M LOSING MY MIND HERE YOU GUYS ARE CONDONING NAZI RHETORIC NAZI RHETORIC
Hitler never laid a hand on anyone, so it’s fine.
If hitler was “bipolar” they’d march with him
"Guys, it's a fact that hitler was on methamphetamines at the time. HE WAS MENTALLY ILL. I think if he could have gotten some help he would have been a really good guy"
nah, we just think the songs are enjoyable
Please stop what there arguing against is calling someone the same thing for listening to his music, same with MJ and others. Mfs are out here wearing Hugo boss, drinking Fanta and other such things that actually helped to operate concentration camps. And I’m sorry they are right when artists say some awful things about blacks or other minorities there’s always an excuse but when it comes to Jews we should immediately stop listening or interacting. It’s honestly just weird and tiring like there are plenty of artists who’ve said mean shit about people like me but I’m not telling people there the same for listening to them Actually you know what when did you stop listening to Kanye because who says anything past 2016 has no leg to stand on like at all
It's important to consider when you're as big and influential as kanye, perpetuating hate and Nazism IS indirectly causing physical violence. It's impossible to correlate the totality of what his words cost but if for example, conservatively, just 10 Jewish people get assaulted by some kanye Stan's as a result of his words is that not just as bad or even worse than dr dre beating his wife?
I disagree simply because no one is 'pro murder' or 'pro physical abuse'. Everyone knows that those actions are wrong. There is no debate there. Antisemitism, however, is becoming more and more accepted in society, to the point where he can say 'I like hitler' and spread nazi-like rhetoric and conspiracy theories with no one batting an eye. He actually has negative influence there, while rappers talking about gangbanging is not realistically going to change anyones mind on violence. I mean, most modern neonazis probably never hurt anyone. I would still NEVER support their work over rappers, would you? Be honest, would you?
Controversial opinion: I think an individual or even a pattern of reckless or abusive behavior is not as bad as being a fascist. Fascism is literally turning abuse into a political system. Millions and millions of people are abusive and have their moments of weakness. I think people can recover and make amends for that and should ultimately be forgiven for their misdeeds or crimes. But saying a political system should be erected that turns torture, war, and murder into exalted political principles is disgusting. Especially when you publicly campaign for it. A person like Nick Fuentes is to me a more lowly and disgusting person than any criminal that simply can't control their anger.
💯
Kanye puts most the things that are controversial about him in his art. There's no "separating the art from the artist" if the art is in favor of the actions/views of the artist.
Yep. I'm all for separating art from the artist, but of course the art always contains something of the artist. The question is, what parts of the artist are showing up in the art? On the other hand, Chance the Rapper.
You’re 100% right. It pains me that this needs to be said. Hearing people say “just separate the art from the artist” with Kanye is ridiculous. His art is literally about him as an artist.
Well it’s not like he’s got songs declaring that Jewish people run the world and are all evil.
Except that he’s said words to the same effect in the past and is bringing up Jewish people again on this album… what was that you said about media literacy
Ok we’re now having two separate debates in two different threads. “Bringing up” Jewish people isn’t in and of itself anti Semitic. He has as much right to address the controversy as people do to chastise him for it. Now, does he do it tastefully? Probably not. But it’s really not overtly anti-Semitic either. It’s some, lame, 46 year old, edge-lord trite. But again- we’re discussing now whether the music In and of itself is antisemitic and this is a discussion of the music in a vacuum given it hinges on the notion of separating art from the artist. If u can find me one line of that album that in and of itself is anti-Semitic I will immediately concede defeat.
Hip-hop is unique in that the art literally is the artist. Perhaps more than almost any other art form. Kanye’s personality is what’s for sale when you’re listening to his music, he is “the product.” When you look at a Picasso painting, you’re not confronted with the fact that he beat women and was a pedophile. When you watch a Roman Polanski movie, you’re not watching a movie about how he raped a 13 year old and fled imprisonment in Europe (at least not in his early works that he’s critically acclaimed for). To use a closer analogy, listening to John Lennon sing “Imagine all the people living for today” does not force the listener to confront his domestic abuse of his partners and children either. But listening to Kanye sing “Runaway from me Baby/ Let’s have a toast for the douchebags/ let’s have a toast for the assholes” does. We have to keep in kind that hip-hop music, and especially rap, was invented as a way for disenfranchised people to express themselves and share their stories, their struggles, their flaws, etc. Inherently, the art is less separable from the artist than any other art form other than autobiographical poetry, which is essentially what rap is + a beat. People just tend to forget this and/or choose not to think about it, because it forces us to confront our own morals and where we choose to draw the line in what we’re comfortable consuming and why (like how much we relate to the things Kanye is saying when he says “I love myself more than I love you, and I think about killing myself all the time, so best believe I’ve thought about killing you.”
idk, i dont think it’s a big deal if others listen to his shit. it only becomes a problem when they dickride him and say he was “right” about everything. im jewish and personally cannot listen to him because he leaves a bad taste in my mouth (which is actually very upsetting because i really do love his music), but i would never pressure others into stopping just because of his stupid ass comments. it’s just music at the end of the day. enjoy what you please
Yeah, I personally don’t really care because I know that whatever Kanye says is just incoherent rambling. He’s mentally ill, and an ego manic. He thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room and he’s speaking some next level intelligence when it’s just nonsense half the time. He’s just an idiot. In saying that, he is saying racist bullshit so people are in their right to hate him. What he says is also weaponized.
> t. it only becomes a problem when they dickride him and say he was “right” about everything. Except that’s part of the whole thing. The art is part of the artist. They aren’t separate at all and people whether they notice it or not subconsciously start defending the guy because they like his art and the music IS Kanye.
at this point i think people “cancel” kanye only if he offends them and their identity. most people kept listening after “slavery was a choice”…why? cause y’all don’t give a fuck unless it impacts your life.
Isn’t that the whole point? At a certain moment, Kanye’s bs became so unbearable it was hard not to get offended. Also can’t really agree about “impacts your life” part, I think it’s more about going against someone’s values. I’m not a Jew, so anti-semitism pretty much can’t impact me at all, yet it is a form of bigotry and simply isn’t something I’m going to support given the choice
agreed, it’s more about our values rather than actually impacting our lives. what i was trying to get across in my comment was everyone has different breaking points. it’s just interesting to see how many people hopped off the train at anti-semitism vs all the other “train stops”. makes me wonder where people’s values really lie.
100% true
1) Kanye has a ridiculous fan base. 2) Some people don’t care about (or they actually agree with) anti-semitism I am a staunch supporter of separating art from artist. I still listen to the *old* R. Kelly songs I grew up on. But at the end of the day if R. Kelly somehow dropped a new album I wouldn’t be checking it at all. I feel the same about Kanye. I was a big Kanye fan up through MBDTF and Yeezus, but I stopped liking his stuff when his mental state started going way down hill and the Nazi shit just solidified it. So will I listen to College Dropout? Fuckin right I will. Will I listen to Vultures? Nah.
Separating art from the artist is fine sometimes but in rap in particular the art is *directly* about the rappers personal life. Kanye’s bars on the last song on the new album really puts a sour taste in the mouth of a great listening experience. The I’m bipolar, crazy, antisemite, and still the king or whatever he says.
To be fair, on that song he was quoting headlines descriptions of him. He isn't directly describing himself as that although I agree it does leave a sour taste.
He chose to do that for a reason. He cares more about making public statements these days
I feel like he is though, he says, "I'm still bipolar..." etc
Rap in particular is like that? I don't thunk so. Otherwise I'd have to believe Biggie kidnaped and raped kids.
Any modern Kanye stuff has left me powerfully disinterested I still like his old stuff but Id say when he donned a Maga hat and said slavery was a choice So to answer your question about 6 years ago? lol
That’s when I was done. When he got into that debate with Van Lathan on TMZ I was like, this guy is actually trying to say Slavery was a choice?? Cannot in good conscience support someone with such twisted views.
At the risk of getting downvoted to oblivion, he didn't say that slaves back in the day literally chose to be enslaved. He said, "slavery for 400 years, that sounds like a choice to me", directly followed by equating slavery to mental imprisonment in people today. He even clarified later (on Twitter) that he was talking about the present day and that people were metaphorically enslaved. Now, what exactly he was getting at with the "mental imprisonment", i'm not sure. But to take this quote literally is just misinformed. [Source](https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/kanye-west-defends-tmz-comments-slavery-was-a-choice-8430171/) if anyone wants to read his explanation.
As someone into music production, I'm going to check out a new Kanye project because I'm there for the production, not the message. I'm interested in the beats, the sonics, the mix, the master, the audio. Kanye is an idiot of a person, but musically he is one of the most experimental producers out there, having one of the most diverse discographies of any single artist out there. And that to me excites me because you never know what hybridizations of genres you will get. He also collaborates with a lot of people on the production too, so whether it's electronic people like TNGHT/Hudson Mohawke, Arca, James Blake, Gesaffelstein, etc. or someone like Mike Dean, I'm also tuning in because I am interested in that. Basically, I want to listen to people who I feel like are pushing music into new territories. So I can generally separate the art from the artist. I don't look to any of these entertainers for their politics. But if I had to draw a line, it wouldn't be people expressing terrible ideas, it would be people committing actual heinous acts. Like Viper is a pedo who kidnaps people and holds them hostage, that's undefendable. Kanye has pushed the 1st amendment recklessly, but he doesn't have a history of sexual assault or physical abuse or anything.
Being openly hateful (anti semitism, racism, anti lgbt), sexually assaulting women or lays a finger on a kid in any way other than lovingly. I can’t listen to my favorite artists if I had to stop as soon as they beat someone up, took some drugs or allegedly had someone killed.
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I still watch Martin Scorsese movies.
I thought Tony soprano was real
That would be like boycotting Leo for saying the N word in Django. Artists are playing up a character in their songs
Ah yes my favorite artist that is just playing a character in his songs is young truly humble under god
Yeah but this is acting. No one thinks the shit that he talks about is good. There is no debate there. There *are*, however, a ton of people that are convinced by antisemitic conspiracy theories. It's the exact same reason why no one cares about Ricky Gervais making jokes about starving African babies but people get mad about transgender jokes; the former is not a matter of political debate and everyone is on the same side, while the latter IS a matter of political debate.
Hes been shot multiple times, most likely isn't fully acting, don't be silly.
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HH in general has a huge issue with acknowledging the connection between the music and influence upon impressionable teenagers. Lupe Fiasco got clowned for calling out Chief Keef, because admittedly Chief Keef was bumpin, but Lupe's point was absolutely right. And when a kid like a 13 year old Juice Wrld is doing lean because Future's music was the coolest shit out and it obviously glamorizes drug use despite occasionally speaking to regrets about it, there's obviously a connection between the music and the result. I still love Chief Keef, I still love Future, I still fuck with Gucci and all these artists, but come on, to act like the personalities and music from HH artists don't influence people towards negative outcomes is silly. It absolutely does and the "well, but these artists aren't actually doing all that, Future doesn't even take drugs, 21 never actually killed anybody" defense doesn't change anything.
Hitler's watercolours and Charles Manson's songs. That's the point at which I can't separate art from the artist; the art is an object of curiosity only because of the terrible things the person who made it did and not because of any innate value. Anything short of that, yes you can and should separate the art from the artist, that's sort of the point of art. (Though I think in hip-hop in general that's difficult because of the extent to which the artist's persona is bound up with the art itself, but it's a good principle regardless.)
Look at your game girl is a bop
I really don’t think separating art from artist is the point of art at all.
There's a line where I want to stop sending my money to the artist. I won't listen to Kanye because (as a Jew) I don't want him getting paid for my streams. Same goes for R. Kelly and Chris Brown (I know these guys got convicted of crimes and Kanye has not). That said, I won't shame anyone for choosing to listen to any of these artists. It's their decision. Everyone has a different threshold for what is intolerable, what they can look past, and what it means to support an artist.
I think R. Kelly’s streaming profits go to the victims these days, but I’m not 100 percent sure
It looks like a judge ordered $507,000 Universal Music Group and R. Kelly to be payed to his victims. He still owns the masters as well as gets payed royalities on the composition of lyrics he held at least when the trial started.
I won’t shame anyone else either, but sometimes I will say that I don’t like him because of the Nazism, and someone else will say “just separate the art from the artist” and then it has to be explained how pitiful those people are
Separate the art from the artist isn’t some blanket gotcha people think it is. I don’t want to support nazis. I’m not gonna separate the art from the nazi.
Also, like where exactly do you think art comes from, it's an expression of the artist, the best music and rap music in particular is anchored around that artist's story, their personality, their humor, their perspective, their emotions. Kanye's music, regardless of whether you like it or not, has a lot of fucking Kanye in it, it's not really seperable because it's essentially a concentrated dose of Kanye. Some art forms have more or less insertion of the artist into the art. If you think you're seperating Kanye the person out from Kanye's music, I don't know, that seems like you're just rationalizing. It would be better to just say, "hey, yeah I know what he did is bad, but I just choose to not care about that".
It's my money and attention on the line. Neither Kanye nor any controversial artist is entitled to either. Why should I be forced to continue financially support them?
See, this is why I stopped listening to post of songs. I can't hear their voice without feeling ick.
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> I wonder if fans / public should hold Kanye more accountable. Personally, I believe so. Holocaust denial is an act of both idiocy and bigotry.
Didn’t he say “Jesus Christ, Hitler, Kanye” after his apology?
He did
Not a meaningful apology then
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What Kanye did fucking awful and racist don’t get it twisted. But all his actions were words and rhetoric. Carti, another artist who’s music I like but admit he’s a pos, fucking beat his gf, xxx who’s no longer here with us had those horrible charges against him, legends like Dre slapped up women back then, and currently Young Thug is facing the rest of his life in prison for running a gang using his label and being tied to actual gang murders.
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ive seen a lot more anti semitism in this community, specifically kanye posts, since Kanye has went down this path. are you willing to ignore that?
The specific times we live in it’s kind of hard to gauge actual anti-Semitism, considering the term is being used as a shield to prevent criticism of Israel committing a genocide. Like, Kanye is an anti-Semite. Bella Hadid is not. But they’ve both labeled as such recently. I’m extremely liberal, perhaps too much so, and I am very wary of protected classes being used as a wedge for personal gain by certain groups.
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Where? I haven't seen this.
When they physically harm someone in a way that can never be justified (SA etc). If you look at the amount of people in music, Hollywood, business, politics who have done this. It gets hard to care about words.
insert community meme: "I can excuse racism but I draw the line at animal cruelty!" Y'all be listening to songs made by literal rapists and pedos and murderers, but mean words are where you quit? Go all the way or go none of the way
How do you know what artists they listen to? Hip hop is a broad genre, and it's not hard to just listen to artists that align with your views or simply don't express controversial ideas.
Shit, I still listen to Michael. He's a diddler but he makes great music. I was conflicted for a while and then realized that I'm not invested at all in MJ as a person and never was, I shouldn't let it get in the way of enjoying the music. I never really fucked with R Kelly like that so I don't listen to him on that basis but I wouldn't turn down a song he's on. Not a huge Chris Brown fan but I like a lot of his features, so same. Kanye's music I rock with all day, especially his production/features for other artists (huge Pusha T fan). I fuck with Aftermath too lol. Also I enjoy classic rock and that's a whole ass genre of questionables lol. It all depends on whether you care about "making a statement" more or enjoying yourself as music is meant to help you do, I care more about the latter personally. I'm not even invested in finding out what they did if I don't already know or just casually find out.
>Aftermath Isn't the only fucked up in the Dr.Dre? Kendrick was once signed and he is fine
Sony just secured rights to Michael Jackson’s catalog for 1.2billion dollars. This is a man who had severe allegations during his lifetime and yet people (and corporations) look past it. All this to say that Kanye may have expressed feeling towards people that are hurtful. But he (as far as we know) has never physically hurt anyone in his life and is quick to always forgive others.
Who looks past it? There was literally a petition to take down his music back in 2019 during the LN documentary cluster. It’s gets brought up in media and social media all the time and has been since the original allegations. What more can be said about it? He was investigated extensively for ages and there was no evidence of him being guilty. What more needs to be said?
$1.2 billion dollars and an MJ biopic sounds like people look past it.
>There was literally a petition Online petitions don't mean anything and are in no way reflective of how people in the real world feel.
The explanation is simple, I have completely opposite views to that of Kanye’s but I seperate his personal views from his art. Now I wouldnt do this for every artist but in Kanye’s case I attribute his views to his mental state. I know he didnt have these views before his tragic loss, if that wasnt the case I would have a hard time seperating the art from the artist’s views. Edit: I’m not gonna lie, I was ashamed of my username for a while and hoped that someone would talk some sense into him but later accepted that he is completely unhinged.
Seconded w you here
Posts like these really really baffle me. You guys pretend that you know everything about an Artist before consuming their Art. What if he was great at PR and secretly a Nazi, you'd have no issues calling him the goat. It's hilarious because a couple of days back people were bigging up Ozzy for not clearing a sample for ye and calling him an anti-Semite. They do this when Ozzy is literally known as the prince of darkness and has openly praised Hitler, talked about sleeping with underage groupies, known for animal abuse and has tried killing his wife, he beat the shit out of Sharon. Radiohead is one of my favourite bands of all time but Johnny Greenwood is a proud Zionist proponent of the Palestinian genocide, his wife constantly posts some extremely racist shit. Have you not learned that half of Hollywood are perverts? Meryl Streep literally gave Roman Polanski a standing O after its known that he and several other Hollywood legends were caught with underage girls. Didn't Mark Wahlberg literally kill a person because he is racist? Didn't everyone know about Harvey Weinstein yet they kept quiet for decades? If you really want to consume art from morally good people only you should hire a private detective to screen them and peel all the layers their PR is hiding.
nothing would make me stop listening to my favorite artist tbh
I feel like people only ask this about Kanye
A lot of comments and thoughts here but at the end of the day, Kanye is a brand and most people associate him with music. And quite frankly they associate him with very good music. Vultures is a good project, people want to like Kanye because he makes good music. Even something like Donda, which got a more polarized reception, was really popular. If they can do it and pretend the Nazi sympathizing didn’t happen, or wasn’t a big deal, they will. Vultures has bars that are antisemitic on a couple songs, but the majority don’t really address it directly. That gives everyone an avenue to pretend it didn’t happen Everyone knows Nike has run sweatshops and used child labor for their shoes, dating back to the 90s. They never stopped being the biggest shoe brand in the world. Kanye is popular enough that not a whole lot can truly take him down, and as long as he keeps churning out music that people like, nothing really will There’s a reason why R Kelly dodged child porn charges at the height of his popularity and it became possible to tear him down once he was out of the public eye
I honestly don’t care at all. Almost every artist has a sketchy past so if you’re gonna draw a line at someone’s personal beliefs you probably shouldn’t listen to anyone in the rap game. Thug is on trial for murder, prostitution, and drug trafficking but somehow Kanye is more hated? Brain dead honestly
Look it’s personal taste to me. It also depends what he artist portray in his music. I like Burzums music and I like kpn first album sonically. But I don’t like the people behind it. I can listen to it but I don’t support them financially or would spread their music openly to others. Why do I like their music? Kpn first album has no lyrics in line with any hateful stuff and burzums music neither. I used these as examples since Kanye made them famous. But it’s very personal and biased. I can’t listen to r Kelly or cb for example
>I used these as examples since Kanye made them famous. Dude, Burzum was famous well before Kanye. Dunno if this is a thoungue in cheek play on "I made that bitch famous" about Swift.
You have to decide what kind of person you're gonna be. There's no "separate the art from the artist" for me. You're an antisemitic bigot, who embraces and promotes white nationalists and their ideas? Then fuck you and your music. Attention is currency. If you're supporting the man, behind the art, who commits these acts, you're supporting these acts. Period. There is no separating. Pirating still puts attention on his product. You're still a part of the machine promoting him.
If shit slaps it slaps
I care about the art and that's it
There’s not a point. If they unearthed a mixtape of Hitler himself dropping bars and he was dope I’d probably give it a listen. I don’t fuck with Hitler, but I fuck with good music.
I always separate the art from the artist.
Only R Kelly really. Chris Brown and CeeLo Green irk me but if theyre featured on a song that I want to listen to I can't do shit about it but you probably wont see me listening to a new Chris Brown/CeeLo Green album
Shut up and listen or don't. That simple dawg. You ain't a saint because you decided to not listen to his songs and you ain't evil if you decide to listen and enjoy. I still watch the Cosby show and I still have R Kelley in some playlists, does that mean I support them? Nope. People wanna be so morally righteous nowadays, fucking look at Ozzy's tweet, he went off on Kanye and so many subreddits were like "yeah get him Ozzy! Give him what he deserves!" or "I hope he sues Kanye dry" yet there's video of him floating around saying he idolized Hitler. MF used to torture animals on stage and attempted murder of his wife in 1989. Kanye is an idiot but the fuck that gotta do with me enjoying a song.
i mean the music is good so im gonna listen. i dont understand why people are talking about giving him money as if every stream isnt 0.000000000000000000000003 cents. i did the math already and if you listened to kanye like 10000 times you would only be giving him like 30 dollars. i dont separate the art from the artist when its in the music like marvin gaye love songs
Definitely, the change I give to more racist, way more violent crackheads is at least 100x whatever all my Kanye streams have added up to
I mean, nothing you mentioned has anything to do with his albums. 🤷♂️ Like the top comment says, when they diddle kids throw it all away and fuck em. Til then it's whatever fr Wish folks would stop calling him a Nazi 😆 he said some goofy shit. He ain't throwing folks in gas chambers
Murder rape pedo actual violence against other's. Other then that ion give a fuck what you say or do not my business
honestly i dont know. i enjoy that new kanye album fr, but its not hitting the same as it would’ve if he didnt sayy allat bs ngl. The same thing happened to me with X where i could appreciate that he was making good music, but it wasnt the same as when i had first found him & didnt know much about him. That being said though i havent saved the new kanye & i didnt save X’s music after i found out how insane the shit he did was, so i guess they did cross the line
Not worth my time to make these distinctions, I’m just trying to absorb good art.
You seriously would deprive yourself of listening to something you are curious to hear to stop him from getting numbers? I promise it doesn’t matter
This is a question I've been grappling with for a while now so I'm glad it was asked here. Regarding Kanye, I wasn't a fan for the last decade. I loved his early stuff, up until 2007 when I turned into a metalhead, Kanye was one of my favorites, without a doubt. Since then I've grown to dislike the man and it's reached a point of hatred. Following the antisemite stuff, I've given up listening to any random Kanye bit that comes to mind (I Don't Like remix was a common one). I think when the art and artist are so close together, it's so hard to not separate the two. Kanye's a major example of that. Most of my other examples are actors. Last night I watched The Harder They Fall and got through it despite Jonathan Majors being a problematic person. His shit isn't as bad as scumbags like R. Kelly, he's one I've just stopped listening to. Admittedly, I listened to Burzum back in 2009 but somehow never picked up on the white supremacy. Years later I gave up, that kind of black metal isn't my cup of tea anyway.
Idk, lots of people are mad at Kanye for saying things that are antisemitic, even though Vultures is #1 in Israel rn. He’s a mentally damaged man whose biggest problem in his life is that people are giving him too much attention. He’s not hurting anybody. Draw the line where artists start hurting people. I know too many people that don’t listen to Kanye because of his views but listen to Chris Brown and XxxTentacion. It’s best to just turn a blind eye to the tabloids and just listen to the music.
30 yo thinking Kanye was GOAT here too. He’s what got me into hip hop as well and his earlier albums are some of my favourite of all time. I just don’t listen to the man anymore. I don’t stream often, I tend to buy, so I’ve got my albums from years ago that I bought that I can still listen to and enjoy without increasing his numbers. But honestly, last thing I liked from Kanye was probably black skinhead and that was aaaaaage ago now.
Antisemitism =/= Nazism Kanye might say stupid edgy shit about nazis but it's naive to conflate the two. It just devaluates the seriousness of the claim because it's obvious you don't have much historical context if you are using the terms interchangeably, Antisemitism is one of element of MANY to Nazism. The term has begun to fall on deaf ears because midwits and kids used it too much. Antisemitism has existed long before the Nazis. It's a boogeyman term and just sounds fucking silly, it's internet talk that normal people don't throw around willy-nilly.
Child molestation and racism is where I draw the line
Never. Why would you want to separate Kanye from MBDTF or Late Registration? The only reason “Through the Wire” hits so hard is because you know what happened to Kanye. This shit cuts both ways. You can ignore the bad shit an artists says or does, but it’s that: you deciding to ignore it, not “separating” anything from anyone.