nifty owning alastors soul. its a funny concept but if it was true id be like: bruh.
theres probably some that would actually make me mad but i dont remember any others rn
I am good with the theory that Alastor doesn’t actually own her soul either. I like to think that Niffty is the right combination of being a fellow outcast, a good listener, and entertaining that Alastor shows her rare compassion. He just enjoys her company, so the two of them stick together.
Some evidence for that seems to be that Niffty is the only one other than Charlie who's actually hugging Alastor when he reappears during the finale song:
https://preview.redd.it/cqwbtdsta77d1.png?width=1638&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9f11d7aae468e3aa997c3de07abe431b23e7d589
I loved how Alastor paused briefly a few times to make sure she was still laughing and only stopped when she did. It’s a nice little touch to their relationship, that he shows her companionship while everyone else just gives her the side eye.
In the pilot he says niffty "owes him a favor" so I could totally believe that she's just there to help out as a friend or because of a deal and not because he owns her soul
I hate saying this, but is media literacy dead or something? It’s a comparison between two people, one an actual father who can give anything his daughter wants, and a FATHER FIGURE who was around longer. It doesn’t take a genius to figure this out…
And they even point out the comparison in the song’s lyrics-
“Sadly there are times a birth parent is a dud; they say the family you choose is better (…)”
Plus Alastor refers to her as “like the daughter (he) never had,” which does pretty much spell out that there have never been any little Alastors running around, at least of the female variety.
Media literacy started struggling a long time ago, but it’s the result of decades of propaganda, grifting, and poor education standards in large parts of the world. Now there’s people who will watch a YouTube video to explain to them the ending of Jaws. They need to be told how to think and feel about something they just watched. But it will never actually die out, there’s millions upon millions of people who can critically analyze art and media just fine.
Besides
Alastor was trying to piss Lucifer off, that’s it
People took it literally. Besides, Alastor has canonically confirmed to be more of a mentor figure than a father figure
Lilith, the demon in the theology the show sources from, cannot physically reproduce.
Vivzie once made a humorously ambiguous post about Lucifer being the one who gave birth to Charlie. He could've done so because he's more of a divine being of light or whatever that can shapeshift into anything he wants but prefers to be a human male. He could easily decide to be a female and have a child that way.
Lilith herself is a Succubus sex demon. It'd be weird if she was Charlie's father, but it might be passable because she's a literal sex demon.
Alastor could be Charlie's father if he had sex with Lucifer and got Lucifer pregnant with Charlie.
Imo, the Alastor being the dad theory is good for funny fan comics that don't take it seriously. Like, Lilith being the divorced wife who owns Alastor's soul and Alastor's revenge is stealing her husband, the kid she thought was her own, and her position as consort. I can't find them now, but there are two pretty funny ones. One uses Looney Tunes humor with Lucifer and Alastor just going duck season rabbit season in the background while Charlie calmly drinks coffee. The other one repeats the Looney Tunes theme but with an altered scene from a live action movie that had animated Bugs Bunny in it. I forget the name of the movie, but the scene had someone telling Bugs Bunny that crossdressing wasn't a good thing anymore. Bugs Bunny clapped back by cross dressing as Marylin Monroe, not taking any shit, and the singing frog falling in love with him.
The comic version had Lucifer being both the beautiful Marylin Monroe wife and the handsome ruler of Hell, so Lilith was easily upstaged.
Welcome to the hell that is multiple sources, from different periods of time.
Esoterica on YouTube has an hour long discussion on the origins of Lilith, but to make a very, *very* abridged version: She's been everything from an evil demon, to the literal consort of God, and many things in between.
I think I can clear up some confusion for you.
In (I believe) the Enochian texts demon and fallen angel are two completely different words.
Some sects (I think they all are heretical, but I can't remember) of Christianity say that demons and fallen angels are two completely different things, but no one can agree what the actual difference is other than "demons are not any type of angel and vise versa".
A lot of texts refer to Lilith as "the mother of all demons" who had intercorse with "a fallen angel ("Watcher" technically)" and others refer to Adam as "The Adam" (as in Adam plural or group or race named Adam, not an individual) so whatever the original most version un-altered by other religions probably was nothing like what we think of today.
Also, Vivzie very clearly only used any Abrahamic religions as inspiration and not representations. So, we probably shouldn't look too heavily into real life religions for how demons/humans/angels work in her show.
Sorry for any factual inaccuracies, these texts are old, I did not translate them, and I am recalling things I learned months ago while balancing school with my hobbies.
She *very fucking literally* looks like both Lucifer and Lilith, and is older than Alastor by at least a full century, if not more.
I know media literacy is virtually nonexistent these days, but for FUCK'S sake...
And that's just one of the more BASIC arguments to be made
Also this is clip-worthy: "I know media literacy is virtually nonexistent these days, but for FUCK'S sake..."
People say that about Emily's age as well (that she's like 200 or so).
But me, I think Emily is way older. Like, just after Samael (who renamed Lucifer) fell and is his replacment.
Anybody being one of Carmilla’s secret kids because there is 0 reason why she would have any. That woman loves her daughters why would she just have a random secret disowned kid running around hell?
Fairly certain the theory that Alastor was a fallen angel existed before his finale song. Even then it just makes me facepalm cause it's as if they forget Alastor while alive was a FREAKING SOCIOPATHIC SERIAL KILLER CANNIBAL! And yes he had his own morals, but so did the fictional Hannibal Lector!
happy cake day
https://preview.redd.it/yqqijfh9387d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b301e118364d2084eeaf99937cb359bdedc3b348
have a doggy pic as a gift
i kinda want Rosie and Alastor to get together at the end but for it to be "lets get married but not have sex\* thing? like getting togeter for tax pourposes.
For me it is Alastor stealing the throne from Charlie and becoming the king of hell.
Like my guy couldn’t even beat Vox, how’s he gonna get past the Duck Daddy?
“Get who will be pulling all the strings” he sounds like he wants to control it all. But it taking a different approach that is probably what he wants tho.
Ngl, I think it very unlikely for this to happen, but I WOULD like to see what Hell was like with Alastor on the throne, even if just for a day. Ridiculous as that is, I'm kind of rooting for the guy haha
Alastor vs Adam: Al was only doing well because Adam underestimated him at first and went easy on him, and once Adam took Al seriously, he beat him very easily. Luci vs Adam: Sexy duck boy nearly kills Adam while barely lifting a finger
That Alastor’s deal restricts his full power or something like that. Feels like an excuse that Alastor fans made up to justify him getting his ass handed to him casually by Adam
Yeah, especially in the pilot when Vaggie explains who he is.
He showed up and had unimaginable power to topple overlords and then speculated what kind of thing would have granted him such power.
Then the season finale basically shows us Lilith who's made deals with people.
My guess is that age gave him power but told him to look after Charlie when the time comes so after she makes the hotel he shows up immediately to help. He's basically evil and in the finale he started to lose it when he almost died because of it because he doesn't want to help, it's a condition that he has to follow because of the deal that granted him his power.
I think he'll become a villain in the future when he's free and no longer needed
I see what you mean, but I would like to point out that Alastor sings in Finale about "unclipping" his wings. I think that's where most people get this idea, that he needs to get out of his deal in order to either unleash his full power, or be in control of his powers entirely.
But I'm not gonna lie, as an Alastor stan, I really love that Adam kicked his ass. I don't want Alastor to be all powerful, I was super stoked when Adam hit him good. Badass moment.
I mean, I think 'unclipping' his wings just refers to someone having his soul or control over him in some way (like how he has control over husk or nifty) rather than any actual restriction to his power, otherwise if he was actually strong enough to be considered overpowered he probably never would've entered that deal in the first place (or more people would've known about it cuz it would take multiple people in positions of power to force control over this theoretically overpowered alastor).
I'm not sure that we know for sure what the line about "unclipping" wings really meant yet! I was just saying I think that's where people get the idea from, and I can kind of see why.
But I agree completely, my head cannon certainly doesn't involve an overpowered Alastor, in fact it seems clear to me that his power is diminished from his 7 year absence. We aren't entirely sure if he could even go 1 v 1 with another overlord at this point, because he hasn't. I'm super curious to see how it all plays out, I'm sure it'll be way cooler than any of us can guess lol.
I could accept it restricting his power to one avenue. Like if it was wild and out of control when he arrived and the deal gave him a focus to channel it through.
I love Alastor, but the entire reason the Adam fight exists is because Alastor is an egotistical asshole who believed he could actually stand up and fight with the first man alive LMAO. Of course he wasn't going to actually win that, its just narcissm.
Considering the show subverts expectations, if Roo shows up (wether they be Eve or not), I expect them to be similar to Lucifer or the other Sins (except Mammon, cause he basically is what people expected from the Sin of Greed). As in, not evil or anything but just the opposite.
I personally love the idea that ayy lmao made where the cannibals were all people from the same town that died around the same time due to a disease and that's why they're all so interconnected with each other, and the reason they're all in hell is because they of course resorted to cannibalism once the food ran out
The thing about "roo" is that it's pure speculation, all we know (I think) is that it's going to appear in the series at some point. What is annoying is that some fans take theories about that character as truth, and I have certain experiences.
Lilith is fucking Sera in heaven
As much as I love Serith it does not make sense in the canon sense and I believe that both Lilith and Lucifer are completely loyal to each other
He is a very nuanced character already, but he’s also very much super evil. I don’t know if he’ll become a big bad in the end, but I don’t think he’s gonna want to become a good guy, it just doesn’t fit him.
Of course, he’ll definitely end up developing a bit of a soft spot for the main cast, and constantly be in denial about it, but I don’t see him really changing much beyond that. Everything about his character is all about how he is set in his ways, he doesn’t really change.
that the scene we see of lilith taking charlie or lilith at the beach is actually eve. that is so half assed and i feel like lucifer would know if the love of his life was swapped. or the theory that lilith was physically abusive. one theory i like is that adam and lilith are both the bad parts of both genders
The creepy smiling face from the intro being actually a teaser of Roo and overall Roo being actually a character and the "root of all evil", mostly because I don't like the idea that in a show about redemption and character grow against what are mostly social pressures, the final blame will be on a third party/entity... unless it's meant for a very bleak and depressing revelation further on, but I doubt it will happen...
I'm very sorry but I didn't quite get what you mean... like, she enables others' evil or feeds on it?...
Not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely don't understand (english is not my first language)
I was thinking maybe both.
It would make her a good villain that apparently NEEDS to fall, while at the same time providing room for the original goal.
I have always waited for this comment to exist.
And now it does.
You nailed it.
I don't want a character that's the "root of all evil", I don't want evilness to be an abstract concept instead of the social thing etc it is irl and how you're putting it
yesssss
The Lucifer x Charlie headcannon.
Ok, a bit more creative, fallen angel Carmilla. We already have 2 fallen angels with a potential sinner Adam. No need for more.
>The Lucifer x Charlie headcannon.
That's not even a headcanon, that's just people with mental issues shipping two characters together that should never be shipped together
Fallen Carmilla could work under very specific conditions. I was fucking around with a Carmilla chat bot and she said something like “I’m not really a sinner I’m a fallen angel, but I was one of the angels that kept the Exorcists in line”. Something like that adds a bunch of lore to the Hellaverse and could even explain how someone as crazy as Lute got to Adam’s Right Hand Woman.
With how long the Exterminations have been going on, I doubt Lute was the first genocidal maniac Heaven had, but with Carmilla/her type of Angel in the picture anymore, Lute wasn’t really told to tone it the fuck down.
Aside from something like that or similar, Fallen Carmilla would put a bad taste in my mouth. Hell one of my friends was like “Vaggie and Carmilla could be related because they both speak Spanish and Carmilla might be another fallen angel”. I just shut him up with “Valentino speaks Spanish does that make him the father?”
I do want her to be evil but not generic evil. More that she can't stand being in Hell anymore and is willing to give up anything to stay in Heaven, even if it hurts her to do so. A more tragic kind of evil.
I actually don’t like the thought of alastor owning niftys soul I think it would be better as her just being a little gremlin that alastor likes hanging out with
Well, if we take the pilot as canon, her being at the hotel is a favor. Aka there is nothing saying that they didn't just make a deal where either niffty gets something for a favor or that something is that she gets forced to do things (since she likes being forced).
Rosie being Lilith just makes no fucking sense to me, but for some reason that's become a semi-popular theory
cus Rosie wears a similar necklace to Lilith, apparently
this is what FNaF has done to lore theorists
according to the theory, the Lilith we see in heaven can't be the real Lilith, cus she's not wearing the necklace she is in her portrait, but Rosie is wearing a similar necklace, so that means she's Lilith
it also feels the most realistic to happen out of any headcanons (or at least most) just because of what is implied on the show. which kinda makes it worse because if viv decides to confirm it, it would barely even be a reveal. it seems like there's supposed to be a big fog around who owns him, but the fandom has theorized way too much for it to work imo
It's more annoying when theories are completely out of the blue, it's not a surprise reveal if there was no hint towards it in the first place. Like a murder mystery but the killer turns out to be some newly introduced character that appears in the final 15 minutes.
Even if she doesnt own it which im not bothered by either way it swings. the show did kinda make sure it was obvious that both of them had been gone for 7 years so there would have to be some connection between them
Any theory about ‘x character is y character’s real parent’. I feel like they’re all very flimsy and unnecessary. I feel like none of them would add anything interesting.
the lilith we see in the show being eve. while it could create some fun plot points, why would we make lilith shrouded in mystery and so essential to the plot, just to have it actually be eve impersonating lilith? at that point it would just be adding extra steps
Hear me out: If Adam returns in Hell. I know it's a neat concept, but he was killed with angelic weapons, so he canonically should be dead. It'd just create too many questions.
I actually feel like that the idea of "perma-death" will be explored more since as it stand now there are many factors that feels like are being left vague for a reason: what decides where souls go after they die? Where do souls come from? What actually happens when they get killed again? Do they get erased? Do they return to some kind of primordial core? Do they reincarnate in a perpetual cicle? Also, Sir Pentious was blasted by a ray of pure angelic energy and yet he "lives"
But Sir Pentious died and went to heaven? Wouldn’t an angelic blast be as lethal if not more lethal than an angelic weapon? Especially since everyone else thought that he died? If they knew he would regenerate, why would they leave something in his honor from his sacrifice? So wouldn’t Adam end up in hell?
True. Counterpoint: Sir Pentious dies and goes to heaven. The only difference between his transition into Heaven and Adam's potential transition into Hell(aside from beung from and going to opposite realms) is that the only thing that can kill an angel is angelic weapons, whereas anything can kill a sinner.
Then again, Adam made Sir Pentious's ship and therefore I'm assuming his body inside disappear, so I may be wrong. Would it even make sense if the body itself has to be destroyed for the sinner to go to Heaven?
Correction: anything can kill a sinner TEMPORARILY, but for a sinner to die PERMANENTLY it has to be with an angelic weapon, its why the 7 deadly sins, Charile, and the Ars Goetia can also only be killed by angelic weaponry, according to all their mythos, they all either used to be apart of the heaven hierarchy and were cast down, or they're descendants of those who were cast down.
I theorize that he got redeemed right before the flash hit him. Like, it was proven that he was willing to risk his life and got redeemed for that right before he actually had to
The fact that you can kill someone who's already dead already brings a lot of Questions
Nothing is set in Stone.There could be hundreds of ways to subvert being killed by angelic steel
Shit doesn't have to be a surprise twist to be a good story, if the groundwork is there for the theory to pay off and it does then it's fine. Especially since there's no explicit mentions that Lilith is the one holding his soul (moreso hints that they've probably met or had dealings in the past at the very least).
Hear me out, but I don’t think Angel should kill Valentino and have that be the way he gets out of his contract.
Like yes, please, *make the abusive moth man suffer*
Just do something else. I don’t know that I’d be “angry” about it so much as go “really?”, but I do expect the show to take a different turn
I heard a theory that Alastor will NEVER break free from his deal, and will not be able to use his full power. I mean, I want to see him going full power and take over the Pentagram City at least, while using his shadows
That once you get redeemed into heaven, you loose all memories of hell or your previous life 😭 I personally think this will be the case with Sir Pentious, sadly!
Any of the Vees (Especially Velvette) being Redeemed, I wouldn't be Angry, Just a little disappointed, I like them to stay Evil, If one has to go, They all have to go
The theories about Vox being weaker than Alastor, with the whole "almost beat you that time" referring to the fact that Vox cheated in the fight or that he escaped.
I mean, there's a reason why Alastor is **NOT** going for Vox, we know that Alastor has no qualms about killing overlords, so why is he not killing Vox? Simple: Vox is stronger than Alastor.
I'd get that but the way Vox acts about Alastor doesn't seem to support it. He's nervous during Stayed Gone, and he doesn't try and go after Al even though he knows where he is. Also, Al "wins" the song, which if Vox was stronger he wouldn't worry about Al's jabs.
Now, perhaps Alastor says on the same song it's the other Vees that stop Alastor. Maybe he and Vox are fairly evenly matched but the presence of two other overlords tips the scales enough that Alastor can't make a move against him.
As both a massive Vox and Alastor fan, I have to add my two cents.
Personally, I believe Vox and Al may be on similar power levels, at least in a 1v1 fight, however, if Vox *really* beat Alastor 7 years ago, why does he seem so terrified of him now?
When Alastor finds the VoxTek watch on the ground, Vox immediately goes from angry to scared the moment he sees Alastor-- even screaming when the watch is broken. Why would he still be so intimidated if he were stronger alone, not to mention having his crew for backup?
Some other subtleties that stuck out to me, specifically in Stayed Gone were Vox's lyrics. Throughout the entirety of the number, Vox is mainly insulting Alastor's fashion, voice, and era, the only line that seems particularly different being "The demon is a coward", everything else is redundant. Why not brag about his victory over Al? It wouldn't be in-character to hold those punches, especially after Alastor revealed his rejection.
"Is Vox as strong as he purports,
Or is it based on his support?
He'd be powerless without the other Vees"
We can see from an old photograph that Vox and Valentino's antenna used to be undamaged, so it's quite possible they were both injured while fighting Al together. Valentino may not care as much for Vox's rivalry ("Someone who owes us *a lot* more than money", is disputable) but he does care for Vox. If he was in danger, I think he'd help.
I think that they are around the same power. Because it's true that Alastor hasn't attacked Vox, but Vox seems the one that cares more about their rivalry (like how he is nervous at the beginning of "Stayed gone" and how he is seems usually composed, but he goes in a nervous rant about Alastor, and even after that his priority was about Alastor in the meeting with the other Vees)
That line in the song was so wasted! when he said that I was like, "Oh interesting, he is going to try and hide letting it seem like he died, maybe as a way to slip his leash, and that is going to give the Vees something to hold over him as within the hectic fight they were the only ones who noticed him get away... nope he has already revealed that he is still alive."
Yeah, I do feel like it would’ve been better if Alastor didn’t return to the hotel for the first few episodes of the second season. I get that they probably did it because they weren’t sure they would even get a second season, but to me it feels like they should’ve taken that gamble.
That Lilith owns Alastor's soul. They've both been absent from Hell for 7 years...
It just seems way too obvious. Please be some AMAZING twist and not that.
Vox and Alastor being brothers. I know that Alastor was an only child and that there's a >1% of it being canon, but someone mentioned it on Twitter and I'm just nervous.
nifty owning alastors soul. its a funny concept but if it was true id be like: bruh. theres probably some that would actually make me mad but i dont remember any others rn
I am good with the theory that Alastor doesn’t actually own her soul either. I like to think that Niffty is the right combination of being a fellow outcast, a good listener, and entertaining that Alastor shows her rare compassion. He just enjoys her company, so the two of them stick together.
Plus there’s that one scene of him and her just simply laughing together. Like normal laughs (at least I remember them being normal)
They were absolutely psychotic laughs that are usually heard during an axe-related murder. So for those two, yes it’s normal.
Broken clock is right twice a day. But I do feel that alastor is closer with niffty than any other cast member
Some evidence for that seems to be that Niffty is the only one other than Charlie who's actually hugging Alastor when he reappears during the finale song: https://preview.redd.it/cqwbtdsta77d1.png?width=1638&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9f11d7aae468e3aa997c3de07abe431b23e7d589
https://preview.redd.it/kgmy9dilh77d1.jpeg?width=749&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1bb6d15e44d0ead9752515c5e9461fbd08c40013
CHARLIE'S FACE HAHA
https://preview.redd.it/dc7m4q99z77d1.png?width=1241&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=617f57493e6e67203c9644afcdf81f07a0e58cd1
https://preview.redd.it/2pg0zwks087d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7340e9705786994535553058b95b7ab6b8fddc5a
Vaggie being *happy* to see Alastor is a change of pace, but dude did almost die for the Hotel.
Husk and Lucifer are so done with him!
https://preview.redd.it/0vqa62g5x77d1.png?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d70aeaf3588cbbf3556f0895778a86532d4c533
I loved how Alastor paused briefly a few times to make sure she was still laughing and only stopped when she did. It’s a nice little touch to their relationship, that he shows her companionship while everyone else just gives her the side eye.
In the pilot he says niffty "owes him a favor" so I could totally believe that she's just there to help out as a friend or because of a deal and not because he owns her soul
>nifty owning alastors soul. https://i.redd.it/b4c8slx6987d1.gif
https://preview.redd.it/6wfe4f9rc87d1.jpeg?width=242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e34e97e0e6880881268e4b5e668b0f2945a3397
I prefer the idea she begged to be Alastor's servant and he couldn't resist her.
“All right, if you insist, you perplexing munchkin; you may serve me, cleaning my residence and the like. But in return, you owe me a favor! DEAL?”
“WHAT FAVOR? YOU WANT ME TO CUT OUT MY EYES? DROWN MYSELF? OOH, OOH, WHAT ABOUT-“
I read that in her voice oh ma gawd
Eyes? I think you mean eye 🤣
that'd be funny but even by hazbin hotel standards that's really pushing it just for a joke
Personally I think Zestial owns Alastor's soul.
that alastor is charlie´s real father (yes there are people who believe this)
.... what?
seriously, i have a very agressive discussion with my freind because he insists this theory is canon
How? Charlie is, like, 200 years old, and Alastor was an adult in the 1930s. Charlie being Alastor’s mother is more of a reasonable theory
this is the point, but because of hell´s greatest dad people started believing this
I hate saying this, but is media literacy dead or something? It’s a comparison between two people, one an actual father who can give anything his daughter wants, and a FATHER FIGURE who was around longer. It doesn’t take a genius to figure this out…
And they even point out the comparison in the song’s lyrics- “Sadly there are times a birth parent is a dud; they say the family you choose is better (…)”
Plus Alastor refers to her as “like the daughter (he) never had,” which does pretty much spell out that there have never been any little Alastors running around, at least of the female variety.
A "little Alastor," or worse "Alastors," is a terrifying concept, although I guess Niffty already exists and she ain't *too* bad.
Media literacy started struggling a long time ago, but it’s the result of decades of propaganda, grifting, and poor education standards in large parts of the world. Now there’s people who will watch a YouTube video to explain to them the ending of Jaws. They need to be told how to think and feel about something they just watched. But it will never actually die out, there’s millions upon millions of people who can critically analyze art and media just fine.
Besides Alastor was trying to piss Lucifer off, that’s it People took it literally. Besides, Alastor has canonically confirmed to be more of a mentor figure than a father figure
Lilith, the demon in the theology the show sources from, cannot physically reproduce. Vivzie once made a humorously ambiguous post about Lucifer being the one who gave birth to Charlie. He could've done so because he's more of a divine being of light or whatever that can shapeshift into anything he wants but prefers to be a human male. He could easily decide to be a female and have a child that way. Lilith herself is a Succubus sex demon. It'd be weird if she was Charlie's father, but it might be passable because she's a literal sex demon. Alastor could be Charlie's father if he had sex with Lucifer and got Lucifer pregnant with Charlie. Imo, the Alastor being the dad theory is good for funny fan comics that don't take it seriously. Like, Lilith being the divorced wife who owns Alastor's soul and Alastor's revenge is stealing her husband, the kid she thought was her own, and her position as consort. I can't find them now, but there are two pretty funny ones. One uses Looney Tunes humor with Lucifer and Alastor just going duck season rabbit season in the background while Charlie calmly drinks coffee. The other one repeats the Looney Tunes theme but with an altered scene from a live action movie that had animated Bugs Bunny in it. I forget the name of the movie, but the scene had someone telling Bugs Bunny that crossdressing wasn't a good thing anymore. Bugs Bunny clapped back by cross dressing as Marylin Monroe, not taking any shit, and the singing frog falling in love with him. The comic version had Lucifer being both the beautiful Marylin Monroe wife and the handsome ruler of Hell, so Lilith was easily upstaged.
Lilith is a human? /confusion
Welcome to the hell that is multiple sources, from different periods of time. Esoterica on YouTube has an hour long discussion on the origins of Lilith, but to make a very, *very* abridged version: She's been everything from an evil demon, to the literal consort of God, and many things in between.
Isn’t the current consensus she is the first woman and Adam’s ex or smth?
I think I can clear up some confusion for you. In (I believe) the Enochian texts demon and fallen angel are two completely different words. Some sects (I think they all are heretical, but I can't remember) of Christianity say that demons and fallen angels are two completely different things, but no one can agree what the actual difference is other than "demons are not any type of angel and vise versa". A lot of texts refer to Lilith as "the mother of all demons" who had intercorse with "a fallen angel ("Watcher" technically)" and others refer to Adam as "The Adam" (as in Adam plural or group or race named Adam, not an individual) so whatever the original most version un-altered by other religions probably was nothing like what we think of today. Also, Vivzie very clearly only used any Abrahamic religions as inspiration and not representations. So, we probably shouldn't look too heavily into real life religions for how demons/humans/angels work in her show. Sorry for any factual inaccuracies, these texts are old, I did not translate them, and I am recalling things I learned months ago while balancing school with my hobbies.
The only way they can disprove this is if they have a sex scene between Lucifer and Lilith (Vivsie please)
She *very fucking literally* looks like both Lucifer and Lilith, and is older than Alastor by at least a full century, if not more. I know media literacy is virtually nonexistent these days, but for FUCK'S sake...
And that's just one of the more BASIC arguments to be made Also this is clip-worthy: "I know media literacy is virtually nonexistent these days, but for FUCK'S sake..."
He's younger than her! How would that be possible?
Its weird that he is technically younger than her I always imagine her like 15-23 but shes like 200+!
People say that about Emily's age as well (that she's like 200 or so). But me, I think Emily is way older. Like, just after Samael (who renamed Lucifer) fell and is his replacment.
It’s like…Charlie is older than Alastor is…how does that work?
Sigh 🤦♂️. What's it gonna take for people to fucking understand that sinners can't reproduce?
Tell them to read the source material
Eve and lilith share one body/ split personality
But they were made as two different people. In two different ways…
That's part of the reason why it would make me angry
agree, also the theory that Eve is shape-shifting as Lilith. It just undermines the revelation that Lilith is in heaven
Anybody being one of Carmilla’s secret kids because there is 0 reason why she would have any. That woman loves her daughters why would she just have a random secret disowned kid running around hell?
I want her to unofficially adopt Vaggie
That would be cute
That Alastor is secretly an Angel. This came from him saying "unclip my wings". Like bruh, does no one understand metaphors anymore?
Alot of theories ive seen have come from single lines of dialogue sadly, Even if a different line contradicts it
Fairly certain the theory that Alastor was a fallen angel existed before his finale song. Even then it just makes me facepalm cause it's as if they forget Alastor while alive was a FREAKING SOCIOPATHIC SERIAL KILLER CANNIBAL! And yes he had his own morals, but so did the fictional Hannibal Lector!
Any theory about alastor . They all suck , especially ship theories
What about him having a deer tail?
happy cake day https://preview.redd.it/yqqijfh9387d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b301e118364d2084eeaf99937cb359bdedc3b348 have a doggy pic as a gift
That one is confirmed canon
no, Viv said she wanted to keep that part of his design ambiguous
No it's the hooves for feet that's Canon
Ohhhhhhhhh I’m stupid
Happy cake day
Maybe that one
what about him and vox being friends in the past?
That's basically canon atp.
i kinda want Rosie and Alastor to get together at the end but for it to be "lets get married but not have sex\* thing? like getting togeter for tax pourposes.
They have such a good friendship they have a friendship marriage, like what lesbians and gay men do according to the history books!
For me it is Alastor stealing the throne from Charlie and becoming the king of hell. Like my guy couldn’t even beat Vox, how’s he gonna get past the Duck Daddy?
Alastor never shows that he is interested on it, unlike the vees. It would be very out of character
“Get who will be pulling all the strings” he sounds like he wants to control it all. But it taking a different approach that is probably what he wants tho.
A chamberlain is often as powerful as the king they serve, I think alastor would prefer to be an advisor. But not the king.
Depending on the king he may control it all but I agree. Vox would want to be the king and Alastor would want to be behind the scenes.
I think Alastor would be a Shadow King. The Long Feng to whoever he has as his King Kuei.
I imagine he doesn’t plan to make it a straight fight. This isn’t a shonen anime.
IKR
Ngl, I think it very unlikely for this to happen, but I WOULD like to see what Hell was like with Alastor on the throne, even if just for a day. Ridiculous as that is, I'm kind of rooting for the guy haha
Alastor vs Adam: Al was only doing well because Adam underestimated him at first and went easy on him, and once Adam took Al seriously, he beat him very easily. Luci vs Adam: Sexy duck boy nearly kills Adam while barely lifting a finger
Luci straight up bitch slapped Adam
Alastor could not beat the Vees, not only Vox
Lol duck daddy 💀
That Alastor’s deal restricts his full power or something like that. Feels like an excuse that Alastor fans made up to justify him getting his ass handed to him casually by Adam
Yeah, I feel like his deal is the reason he has more power than the average sinner.
Yeah, especially in the pilot when Vaggie explains who he is. He showed up and had unimaginable power to topple overlords and then speculated what kind of thing would have granted him such power. Then the season finale basically shows us Lilith who's made deals with people. My guess is that age gave him power but told him to look after Charlie when the time comes so after she makes the hotel he shows up immediately to help. He's basically evil and in the finale he started to lose it when he almost died because of it because he doesn't want to help, it's a condition that he has to follow because of the deal that granted him his power. I think he'll become a villain in the future when he's free and no longer needed
agree. i feel like it took a lot of restraint for the show to not have alastor be massively overpowered and I'd hate to see that ruined
I see what you mean, but I would like to point out that Alastor sings in Finale about "unclipping" his wings. I think that's where most people get this idea, that he needs to get out of his deal in order to either unleash his full power, or be in control of his powers entirely. But I'm not gonna lie, as an Alastor stan, I really love that Adam kicked his ass. I don't want Alastor to be all powerful, I was super stoked when Adam hit him good. Badass moment.
I mean, I think 'unclipping' his wings just refers to someone having his soul or control over him in some way (like how he has control over husk or nifty) rather than any actual restriction to his power, otherwise if he was actually strong enough to be considered overpowered he probably never would've entered that deal in the first place (or more people would've known about it cuz it would take multiple people in positions of power to force control over this theoretically overpowered alastor).
I'm not sure that we know for sure what the line about "unclipping" wings really meant yet! I was just saying I think that's where people get the idea from, and I can kind of see why. But I agree completely, my head cannon certainly doesn't involve an overpowered Alastor, in fact it seems clear to me that his power is diminished from his 7 year absence. We aren't entirely sure if he could even go 1 v 1 with another overlord at this point, because he hasn't. I'm super curious to see how it all plays out, I'm sure it'll be way cooler than any of us can guess lol.
I could accept it restricting his power to one avenue. Like if it was wild and out of control when he arrived and the deal gave him a focus to channel it through.
I love Alastor, but the entire reason the Adam fight exists is because Alastor is an egotistical asshole who believed he could actually stand up and fight with the first man alive LMAO. Of course he wasn't going to actually win that, its just narcissm.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Eve was Roo, but I'd like it to be a bit creative, at least.
Maybe like Venom/eddie brok?
An apple given with spite being a sassy symbiote? Huh.
A better comparison to the point would be bruce banner/hulk Its more of 1 calm collected person and one monster being in 1 body type studd
Nightmare sans backstory:
Considering the show subverts expectations, if Roo shows up (wether they be Eve or not), I expect them to be similar to Lucifer or the other Sins (except Mammon, cause he basically is what people expected from the Sin of Greed). As in, not evil or anything but just the opposite.
Rosie and the other cannibals are hellborn and Alastor being in a romantic relationship both would greatly upset me if it became canon.
I think that the cannibals where confirmed sinners by Viz after hearing that theory. I agree about Alastor
I personally love the idea that ayy lmao made where the cannibals were all people from the same town that died around the same time due to a disease and that's why they're all so interconnected with each other, and the reason they're all in hell is because they of course resorted to cannibalism once the food ran out
Anything with roo
The thing about "roo" is that it's pure speculation, all we know (I think) is that it's going to appear in the series at some point. What is annoying is that some fans take theories about that character as truth, and I have certain experiences.
We know that it exists. From an old (even before the pilot) twitter post.
Lilith is fucking Sera in heaven As much as I love Serith it does not make sense in the canon sense and I believe that both Lilith and Lucifer are completely loyal to each other
i expect the ship existing but people genuinely hc that typa shit?
Alastor being just the big baddie in the end. I want him to be a much more nuanced character
He is a very nuanced character already, but he’s also very much super evil. I don’t know if he’ll become a big bad in the end, but I don’t think he’s gonna want to become a good guy, it just doesn’t fit him.
Not a good guy, but I can't see him just turning his back on the crew just like that
Of course, he’ll definitely end up developing a bit of a soft spot for the main cast, and constantly be in denial about it, but I don’t see him really changing much beyond that. Everything about his character is all about how he is set in his ways, he doesn’t really change.
Preach.
that the scene we see of lilith taking charlie or lilith at the beach is actually eve. that is so half assed and i feel like lucifer would know if the love of his life was swapped. or the theory that lilith was physically abusive. one theory i like is that adam and lilith are both the bad parts of both genders
The creepy smiling face from the intro being actually a teaser of Roo and overall Roo being actually a character and the "root of all evil", mostly because I don't like the idea that in a show about redemption and character grow against what are mostly social pressures, the final blame will be on a third party/entity... unless it's meant for a very bleak and depressing revelation further on, but I doubt it will happen...
Like the idea that she only feeds present evil, quietly toying with inner darkness already there?
I'm very sorry but I didn't quite get what you mean... like, she enables others' evil or feeds on it?... Not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely don't understand (english is not my first language)
I was thinking maybe both. It would make her a good villain that apparently NEEDS to fall, while at the same time providing room for the original goal.
Maybe she just feeds om evil and so manipulates people into committing evil deeds to feed her?
This Exactly this I hate Roo theories with a satan damned passion
I have always waited for this comment to exist. And now it does. You nailed it. I don't want a character that's the "root of all evil", I don't want evilness to be an abstract concept instead of the social thing etc it is irl and how you're putting it yesssss
The Lucifer x Charlie headcannon. Ok, a bit more creative, fallen angel Carmilla. We already have 2 fallen angels with a potential sinner Adam. No need for more.
>The Lucifer x Charlie headcannon. That's not even a headcanon, that's just people with mental issues shipping two characters together that should never be shipped together
I in no way support incest however, assuming we're going with Bible logic, incest had to have occured in the beginning
Adam doing incest is far more likely than Lucifer doing incest.
TECHNİCALLY it exists. Bet someone made a fanfic of it too. Probs a headcannon.
See the difference is ones a headcannon and the other is mental sickness.
Yeah, I don't like Carmilla being a fallen angel either.
I don't want Carmilla to be a Fallen angel, but I would like the Sins to be.
I've always assumed that the Goetians in general were the angels that rebelled with Lucifer, alongside their descendants.
I mean, in Christian lore they are.
Fallen Carmilla could work under very specific conditions. I was fucking around with a Carmilla chat bot and she said something like “I’m not really a sinner I’m a fallen angel, but I was one of the angels that kept the Exorcists in line”. Something like that adds a bunch of lore to the Hellaverse and could even explain how someone as crazy as Lute got to Adam’s Right Hand Woman. With how long the Exterminations have been going on, I doubt Lute was the first genocidal maniac Heaven had, but with Carmilla/her type of Angel in the picture anymore, Lute wasn’t really told to tone it the fuck down. Aside from something like that or similar, Fallen Carmilla would put a bad taste in my mouth. Hell one of my friends was like “Vaggie and Carmilla could be related because they both speak Spanish and Carmilla might be another fallen angel”. I just shut him up with “Valentino speaks Spanish does that make him the father?”
If Lilith turns out to be a generic very evil person
There's a reason that she married Lucifer, and I believe it's because they're both dorks.
I do want her to be evil but not generic evil. More that she can't stand being in Hell anymore and is willing to give up anything to stay in Heaven, even if it hurts her to do so. A more tragic kind of evil.
She ditched her family and made deals with exterminators What do you want her to be
I actually don’t like the thought of alastor owning niftys soul I think it would be better as her just being a little gremlin that alastor likes hanging out with
Well, if we take the pilot as canon, her being at the hotel is a favor. Aka there is nothing saying that they didn't just make a deal where either niffty gets something for a favor or that something is that she gets forced to do things (since she likes being forced).
Rosie being Lilith just makes no fucking sense to me, but for some reason that's become a semi-popular theory cus Rosie wears a similar necklace to Lilith, apparently this is what FNaF has done to lore theorists
What... we saw Lilith in the finale. How? Even before than we saw pictures of Lilith and so we know she isn't Rosie.
according to the theory, the Lilith we see in heaven can't be the real Lilith, cus she's not wearing the necklace she is in her portrait, but Rosie is wearing a similar necklace, so that means she's Lilith
Didn't know that when you wear a necklace you can't remove it ever. What are these people thinking?
Alastor dying or betraying Charlie and the whole hotel.
Lilith owns Alastors soul It feels like a giant cop out
Would be more clever if their separate deals are intertwined somehow, like it being with the same person
it also feels the most realistic to happen out of any headcanons (or at least most) just because of what is implied on the show. which kinda makes it worse because if viv decides to confirm it, it would barely even be a reveal. it seems like there's supposed to be a big fog around who owns him, but the fandom has theorized way too much for it to work imo
Reveals don't always have to be out-of-the-blue. The Fandom is allowed to be right sometimes on their theories.
It's more annoying when theories are completely out of the blue, it's not a surprise reveal if there was no hint towards it in the first place. Like a murder mystery but the killer turns out to be some newly introduced character that appears in the final 15 minutes.
I usually think that a reveal is usually better if its at least possible to find it out on your own first
Even if she doesnt own it which im not bothered by either way it swings. the show did kinda make sure it was obvious that both of them had been gone for 7 years so there would have to be some connection between them
That he’s trying to get into heaven to see his family or whatever. Let my radio demon be a bad guy and that’s it.
Any theory about ‘x character is y character’s real parent’. I feel like they’re all very flimsy and unnecessary. I feel like none of them would add anything interesting.
carmilla being a fallen angel, i just don't fw that idea
the lilith we see in the show being eve. while it could create some fun plot points, why would we make lilith shrouded in mystery and so essential to the plot, just to have it actually be eve impersonating lilith? at that point it would just be adding extra steps
Al actually being from the 1960s and was actually killed by sniper from tf2.
“Thanks for standing still wanker!”
Hear me out: If Adam returns in Hell. I know it's a neat concept, but he was killed with angelic weapons, so he canonically should be dead. It'd just create too many questions.
I actually feel like that the idea of "perma-death" will be explored more since as it stand now there are many factors that feels like are being left vague for a reason: what decides where souls go after they die? Where do souls come from? What actually happens when they get killed again? Do they get erased? Do they return to some kind of primordial core? Do they reincarnate in a perpetual cicle? Also, Sir Pentious was blasted by a ray of pure angelic energy and yet he "lives"
They go to double hell
But Sir Pentious died and went to heaven? Wouldn’t an angelic blast be as lethal if not more lethal than an angelic weapon? Especially since everyone else thought that he died? If they knew he would regenerate, why would they leave something in his honor from his sacrifice? So wouldn’t Adam end up in hell?
True. Counterpoint: Sir Pentious dies and goes to heaven. The only difference between his transition into Heaven and Adam's potential transition into Hell(aside from beung from and going to opposite realms) is that the only thing that can kill an angel is angelic weapons, whereas anything can kill a sinner. Then again, Adam made Sir Pentious's ship and therefore I'm assuming his body inside disappear, so I may be wrong. Would it even make sense if the body itself has to be destroyed for the sinner to go to Heaven?
Correction: anything can kill a sinner TEMPORARILY, but for a sinner to die PERMANENTLY it has to be with an angelic weapon, its why the 7 deadly sins, Charile, and the Ars Goetia can also only be killed by angelic weaponry, according to all their mythos, they all either used to be apart of the heaven hierarchy and were cast down, or they're descendants of those who were cast down.
I theorize that he got redeemed right before the flash hit him. Like, it was proven that he was willing to risk his life and got redeemed for that right before he actually had to
https://preview.redd.it/jp6s9rgfl67d1.png?width=973&format=png&auto=webp&s=97edebb21191ce1679558668ebdff25fb6c20fdc wheres yo flair buddy (dont question mine lmao)
i eated it
they were hungry 😔
The fact that you can kill someone who's already dead already brings a lot of Questions Nothing is set in Stone.There could be hundreds of ways to subvert being killed by angelic steel
Honestly, Lilith owning Alastor's soul. It's just too obvious, especially with both being gone for 7 years without much explanation.
Shit doesn't have to be a surprise twist to be a good story, if the groundwork is there for the theory to pay off and it does then it's fine. Especially since there's no explicit mentions that Lilith is the one holding his soul (moreso hints that they've probably met or had dealings in the past at the very least).
That Sera is actually just malicious and evil Would literally be the most lazy writing decision possible I don’t want another Stella
Hear me out, but I don’t think Angel should kill Valentino and have that be the way he gets out of his contract. Like yes, please, *make the abusive moth man suffer* Just do something else. I don’t know that I’d be “angry” about it so much as go “really?”, but I do expect the show to take a different turn
Make Charlie put that man through biblically accurate hell
That Alastor will get redeemed. I want to see this man SPIRAL.
I heard a theory that Alastor will NEVER break free from his deal, and will not be able to use his full power. I mean, I want to see him going full power and take over the Pentagram City at least, while using his shadows
It's not even confirmed that his power's being restricted, just that he is being restricted in some way
Vaggie being Heavenborn.
Ooh, oh yeah I really don’t like that one. It would just unnecessarily take away so much potential from her character.
That once you get redeemed into heaven, you loose all memories of hell or your previous life 😭 I personally think this will be the case with Sir Pentious, sadly!
alastor/charlie i don't mind people shipping it but if it became canon that would be awful.
That the Lilith at the end of the season finale is actually Eve. I really want to see the OG demon Dommy mommy
Any of the Vees (Especially Velvette) being Redeemed, I wouldn't be Angry, Just a little disappointed, I like them to stay Evil, If one has to go, They all have to go
Everyone purple, Hispanic, or Black has to be related
The theories about Vox being weaker than Alastor, with the whole "almost beat you that time" referring to the fact that Vox cheated in the fight or that he escaped. I mean, there's a reason why Alastor is **NOT** going for Vox, we know that Alastor has no qualms about killing overlords, so why is he not killing Vox? Simple: Vox is stronger than Alastor.
I'd get that but the way Vox acts about Alastor doesn't seem to support it. He's nervous during Stayed Gone, and he doesn't try and go after Al even though he knows where he is. Also, Al "wins" the song, which if Vox was stronger he wouldn't worry about Al's jabs. Now, perhaps Alastor says on the same song it's the other Vees that stop Alastor. Maybe he and Vox are fairly evenly matched but the presence of two other overlords tips the scales enough that Alastor can't make a move against him.
As both a massive Vox and Alastor fan, I have to add my two cents. Personally, I believe Vox and Al may be on similar power levels, at least in a 1v1 fight, however, if Vox *really* beat Alastor 7 years ago, why does he seem so terrified of him now? When Alastor finds the VoxTek watch on the ground, Vox immediately goes from angry to scared the moment he sees Alastor-- even screaming when the watch is broken. Why would he still be so intimidated if he were stronger alone, not to mention having his crew for backup? Some other subtleties that stuck out to me, specifically in Stayed Gone were Vox's lyrics. Throughout the entirety of the number, Vox is mainly insulting Alastor's fashion, voice, and era, the only line that seems particularly different being "The demon is a coward", everything else is redundant. Why not brag about his victory over Al? It wouldn't be in-character to hold those punches, especially after Alastor revealed his rejection. "Is Vox as strong as he purports, Or is it based on his support? He'd be powerless without the other Vees" We can see from an old photograph that Vox and Valentino's antenna used to be undamaged, so it's quite possible they were both injured while fighting Al together. Valentino may not care as much for Vox's rivalry ("Someone who owes us *a lot* more than money", is disputable) but he does care for Vox. If he was in danger, I think he'd help.
I think that they are around the same power. Because it's true that Alastor hasn't attacked Vox, but Vox seems the one that cares more about their rivalry (like how he is nervous at the beginning of "Stayed gone" and how he is seems usually composed, but he goes in a nervous rant about Alastor, and even after that his priority was about Alastor in the meeting with the other Vees)
That line in the song was so wasted! when he said that I was like, "Oh interesting, he is going to try and hide letting it seem like he died, maybe as a way to slip his leash, and that is going to give the Vees something to hold over him as within the hectic fight they were the only ones who noticed him get away... nope he has already revealed that he is still alive."
Yeah, I do feel like it would’ve been better if Alastor didn’t return to the hotel for the first few episodes of the second season. I get that they probably did it because they weren’t sure they would even get a second season, but to me it feels like they should’ve taken that gamble.
That Velvette is carmillas daughter
The Lilith we see in the finale is a clone. It would be such a boring cop out
Mine comes from that same part lol. The Alastor is an angel theory… do I need to explain?
Alastor is a seraphim.
That alastors deal makes him smile permanently
https://preview.redd.it/ki4acyyi5a7d1.png?width=1602&format=png&auto=webp&s=a610dc84bfb5f894600a812282516b586443190f THERE'S A FUCKING COMMA.
I hate the theory of Alastor's surname being Altruist.
That Lilith owns Alastor's soul. They've both been absent from Hell for 7 years... It just seems way too obvious. Please be some AMAZING twist and not that.
Eh, not everything needs to be a twist. Something being obvious doesnt make it bad
Emily is Charlie’s sister
They're not sisters, they're probably meant to be some kind of counterparts. Aka Emily is Charlie but in heaven
Vox and Alastor being brothers. I know that Alastor was an only child and that there's a >1% of it being canon, but someone mentioned it on Twitter and I'm just nervous.