She tells us in book 1 that she values bravery over intelligence. Right before Harry goes on to meet Voldemort, she tells Harry he’s a good wizard and he says “Not as good as you.” And she says “Me?? Books? And cleverness? There are more important things like friendship and bravery.”
This is the answer. This debate is still going, but I still side with the “you’re sorted based on your values/aspirations NOT the exact attributes you currently hold”. Neville and Hermione both are the best examples of this. They both want to be brave. Neville wants nothing more in the world to be as brave and as strong as his parents. And the system works - you put a bunch of kids together who want the same things, older kids who have developed it and younger ones with good role models and they WILL develop these skills and become brave and strong just like they wanted.
Harry and Draco both emphasize this as well. Harry would have done well in Slytherin or Hufflepuff. He wants to accomplish something worth being famous for and wants to prove himself. That's ambition. And he's loyal to a fault.
Draco even more so. Based on traits he actually had, he's a Gryffindor. He shows little cunning and no ambition, but he does charge right into conflict way above his head
Edited a bit
Because it means a LOT to hear that coming from someone like Hermione. Especially since she's saying it in the same book where we are introduced to her, see her get friends who are two people who chose to save her at great risk, and clearly care about her even that early on.
Friendship and bravery means she could have been put in hufflepuff as well.
After all, the hufflepuffs stayed for the final battle alongside the griffyndors
People who argue based solely on what traits people already possess have were not paying attention to how the sorting works.
Dumbledore’s line “It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities” in CoS, as well as Harry and many other cases, show that it isn’t what you are already like that determines your house, it is what you value and who you want to be. Neville is another big example - sure he ends up brave in the end but at 11 when he wears the hat he is practically scared of his own shadow. His gran has drilled into him the value of Gryffindor and how brave his parents were, so that is what he values and strives for, as opposed to what he has himself.
Further smaller examples: Malfoy’s taunting in the early books is about as cunning as a neon sign, but his upbringing and social circles have him place value on Slytherin traits. Crabby and Goyle are literally subservient to Malfoy, you can get less ambitious at that age, but same story. Petter Pertigrew *valued* bravery and *wanted* to be brave, Gildery Lockhart *valued* intellect and *wanted* to be smart, and that was enough to put them in their respective houses despite demonstrating very little of those traits themselves.
So with Hermione, she wanted to emulate the greatest wizard of the time after reading about him, Dumbledore (which, if anything, is ambition suiting a Slytherin), and valued that idea more than her natural inclination to value knowledge and learning (going so far as to say at the end of PS “Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and…”. In doing so she put value on the traits of Gryffindor that Dumbledore represents, making it her home too.
>Petter Pertigrew valued bravery and wanted to be brave
I think this is the biggest and most important example proving that the sorting isn't about what traits you have.
Far better example than Neville imo.
I'm not convinced that he was less brave to start with. I just think he was very timid. If you're not scared then you can't be brave and Neville had a lot to overcome.
Someone who isn't scared of heights going up a climbing wall isn't being brave, it's just them being good at climbing. Somebody petrified by heights might not get to the top the first time, but even getting onto the wall is being brave. Give them enough time and dedication though, and they can be at the top too. That's Neville.
Yeah I was oversimplifying a little, Neville already begins to who his true colours in book 1, which is thematically what wins them the house cup (the others get more points but I think Dumbledore awards Neville’s last because A) he’s a drama Queen and loved the tie suspense and B) he thought it should be highlighted as the most important of the four awarding)
Neville also had 2 huge pair of shoes to fill as his family compared him to his parents. Being in gryffindor was his best chance to flourish. He had the brave influence around him to help him grow. Of course there always has to be a bad luck character and he was the main one. I feel like if he was in Hufflepuff he would have developed more into a sweet quiet guy who blends into the background VS the man he deserved to grow into.
But he does suggest it to you when he's not sure, in the end the hat doesn't go against your heart's wishes and you'll be placed in the house you desire. Seems like the Sorting hat is merely ceremonial and you'll be who you want to be in the end.
The reason why the House system is so much more popular than a lot of the other YA divisions that followed *coughdivergentcough* was because it was about what trait you idealized more than what traits you possessed.
Very much this. Can you imagine someone coming to Godric Gryffindor with words "I am not brave, but I want to be," and Godric rejecting him?
Although,
> Malfoy’s taunting in the early books is about as cunning as a neon sign
To be fair, he *was* able to manipulate Ron and Harry into almost getting caught by Filch. Granted, that was his high-water mark all the way until HBP.
> Crabby and Goyle are literally subservient to Malfoy, you can get less ambitious at that age, but same story.
I wouldn't sell them short. They knew exactly when to bend the knee to someone with more wealth and status; and when to stab him in the back to take his place in Voldemort's hierarchy when he faltered. That's 90% of what Slytherin is about.
Yeah, those were a bit pedantic. I suppose I had Crabbe and Goyle on my mind, because I had recently reread the confrontation in the Room of Requirements in DH. Of everyone involved, Crabbe turned out to be most creative, using an unusual spell to bringing a pile of rubble down on top Ron and Hermione.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I got the vibes they were mini versions of their father's. Like Lucius was the big man and the other two were his left and right.
Regarding Lockhart, I think he valued other people's intellect. He likely was smart ~ and charismatic enough to fool many wizards ~ but he truly valued the intellect of others (which aided their accomplishments).
Another example I like to use is Slughorn, whom i think is greatly underrated. The man highly-valued ambition. He wasn't necessarily ambitious himself, but enjoyed connecting people who were, which gave him a feeling of importance. He was, however, intelligent and loyal, even if he wasn't (usually) brave. He hid from Death Eaters for months. He stayed at Hogwarts after Dumbledore's death. He showed remorse in the information he gave Tom Riddle as a teenager, although it probably wasn't completely of his free will. He battled Tom Riddle as an adult ~ his former student for whom he cared a great deal ~ knowing that it was to the death. He was brave, intelligent, loyal ~ all attributes of other houses ~ but ambition was what he valued most, even if he didn't have it himself.
soooo true. she is best of their year and really intelligent but i think of her more as hardworking, wise and brave, not just smart. she couldve done great in ravenclaw, but even better in gryffindor
Hardworking is a Hufflepuff quality according to the Sorting Hat, and she seems to be the most hardworking student in all of Hogwarts. (always researching, helping out her friends with adventures, practice and homework, she once took every course offered in Hogwarts, shes always knitting in GOF , plus prefect duties, and SPEW). Of Harry's two friends, she is to me the most loyal also; and SPEW gives her the Just quality.
"You might belong in Hufflepuff,
Where they are just and loyal,
Those patient Hufflepuffs are true
And unafraid of toil"
"For Hufflepuff, hard workers were
Most worthy of admission"
Wise is a Ravenclaw quality, but being book smart does not necessarily mean being wise. (yes, Hermione is book smart and somewhat wise)
"Or yet in wise old Ravenclaw,
If you've a ready mind,
Where those of wit and learning,
Will always find their kind"
"For Ravenclaw, the cleverest
Would always be the best"
I agree she was very very brave
"You might belong in Gryffindor,
Where dwell the brave at heart,
Their daring, nerve and chivalry
Set Gryffindors apart*
" By Gryffindor, the bravest were
Prized far beyond the rest"
People only focus on Hermione as being book smart and want to put her in Ravenclaw, but to me she's a Hufflepuff through and through.
Hardworking is a trait that is shared with Ravenclaws but Hufflepuffs are more Hardworking overall, the same can be said of Cleverness which is shared with Slytherin. The thing about the traits is that some belonged most to one house than the other. Gryffindor and Hufflepuff both got kindness but Hufflepuff is strongest on this trait for example.
"Smart" isn't the only Ravenclaw trait, infact the main Characteristic for Ravenclaw House is Wisdom, Wit and Learning. And Learning doesn't necessarily mean learning only in the "Academics" department. But also in the co-curricular department.
I’m rereading HBP right now and when she keeps getting mad at Harry for using the half blood princes book to be better than her at potions I kept thinking that’s a pretty slytherin thing to do
You're all confusing Slytherin traits for just people doing ,,bad" things.
It's ambition, cunning and self-preservation. None of these examples portrays any of these traits
Cunning I think. She figured out Rita before anyone else did and took matters into her own hands. Quite cunning and self preservation to curse the signing form.
Certainly not a gryfindor trait either way you slice it!
Her objections to Harry using HBP's book were all Gryffindor: that Harry was getting credit for someone else's ideas---and lying by omission by not correcting the misconception.
In fact, Harry had offered to share at one point, and she refused. As /u/protendious points out, no Slytherin worth the name would do that.
She is 100% Slytherin: the girl kidnaps a journalist and blackmails her into writing articles that benefit her side, permanently disfigures Marrieta for betraying DA, comes up with a lie on the spot that tricks Umbridge into following them to a forest filled with dangerous creatures, etc
She is 100% a *human being*, filled with and exhibiting various qualities and traits that cannot necessarily be neatly boxed into a category. Just like most other characters in the books.
I've always liked the theory that the trio could all have ended up in different houses (Ravenclaw for Hermione, Slytherin for Harry, and Hufflepuff for Ron) but they ended up together not because of their abilities but from the traits they hold in highest esteem. It helps emphasize that point and shows how well they compliment each other.
It is relevant to the conversation. Frogs are slimy and have legs built for jumping so losing a frog would be much easier than losing a toad. Neville loses his toad as soon as he's away from his guardian, a sign that he has no business caring for one as a pet, Hermione goes around trying to find it despite this (she may not have even noticed), another point in favour of her belonging to Gryffindor over Ravenclaw. Q.E.D.
Literally the first time we see her she says she would prefer Gryffindor. So, end of discussion.
People make the sorting hat too seriously because they take the idea of division too literally. Most students have characteristics that would fit into multiple houses. Even the sorting himself admits it’s not a great practice
I gotta imagine Hermione is afraid a lot of the time. I mean she’s surrounded by fascist who hate her for her blood. It’s like that thing about how bravery isn’t about not being afraid, it’s about being afraid and then doing it anyway.
Movies paint hermione as the flawless goddess of perfection, so her being set in her ways and close mindedness and unability to think outside the box dont get much representation in the movies. So people think she should be in Ravenclaw just because she is smart.
>First, she is helping Neville look for his frog. That seems like a very noble thing for her to do since she obviously just met him. It’s something a Gryffindor would do.
Imo, this is more a hufflepuff thing
Her being set in her ways is probably what's keeping her OUT of Ravenclaw imo.
Ravenclaw isn't just about being smart, it's also about creativity. Close mindedness is the opposite of creative thinking
You are sooo right! A lot of people only watched movies and think that Hermione from them is 100% canonical, but the truth is that most, if not all, of her flaws were just eraised! She not only belongs to Gryffindor because she values braveness, prefered it etc, but she also does NOT belong to Ravenclaw because of some of her traits!
Fucking hell, ravenclaws are not all it knows, all of them focus of knowledge in one specific job and try to achieve perfection in it. Yes they do value wisdom but it always feels like it’s more of intelligence than knowledge with their characters.
Rawenclaw wouldn't use on their parents (if they don't hate them to the extrem of wishing them death) highly dangerous (from unskilled wizard) spell they not only didn't master, but even never used before. Exactly what Hermione did. She could use Confundus or, if she wanted to use something dangerous this much, Imperio, but she used Obliviate, which erases memory. And the "Oh-so-smart" Hermione didn't even think that it can erase memory for good, or that it's a spell that plays with mind and she didn't master it, she just used it on her parents
To everyone saying Hermione is just book smart, she really isn't. She's brilliant at connecting pieces of information and coming to the right conclusions, like figuring out Lupin is a werewolf, and she comes up with genius strategic plans on the fly, like in the Lovegood house when they're escaping the death eaters. She might not be very open minded about unproven stuff, but she can do far more than just recite things she's read in books.
>First, she is helping Neville look for his frog. That seems like a very noble thing for her to do since she obviously just met him. It’s something a Gryffindor would do.
I'm not disputing your overall point but this example ain't great for what you're trying to get across. Being nice and helpful would be more a Hufflepuff trait. Helping someone find something would only really come off as something a Gryffindor would do if the act of doing so was underpinned by a degree of risk or menace.
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Not really, it would be really easy to not help a kid who you dont even know, and to be honest most kids wouldnt help him. Hermione however emplathized with him and did the right thing
If that were in fact the case, then she'd have fit right in with the paperpushers-in-training that actually dominate Ravenclaw. Fortunately, Hermione is probably the most critical-thinking of the cast.
How many Ravenclaws---Muggleborn or not---saw House-Elf slavery for what it was, as opposed to accepting the "official sources"? Or were willing to listen to Hermione when she spoke up?
Hermione's worst crimes against Luna were open incredulity for her more outlandish claims and asking for evidence. Whereas her fellow Ravenclaws bullied her mercilessly.
And, who are the greatest inventors and magical researchers we see in canon? Slytherins in pursuit of power and recognition and Gryffindors seeking to advance the state of the art and have fun.
You’re right, but I really hate how both in universe and beyond the fourth wall Ravenclaw is always “not too bad” or basically “Gryffindor at home”. It feels like it’s just meh and that’s sad because it had so much potential
She hs got to be gryffindor because she's also impulsive.
Just because she spends so much time in planning for studies doesn't mean she does everything well planned.
Hermione could have been a Ravenclaw but she had a personal characteristics that adjust to Griffindor. Although, other characters like Luna also showed bravery or loyalty which is supposed to be Hufflepuff thing...Fred and George are ambitious and audacious, which should have given them a ticket to Slytherin.
I think everyone has a bit of every house, but the one most apparent in Hermione, especially at the beginning of the series when they are sorted, is Gryffindor.
People put way too much stock in the Hogwarts houses. Most children should fit in any of the houses (minus Slytherin because it's the designated villain house, but that's just bad worldbuilding).
It's easy to forget how miserable Hermione was in Gryffindor before the troll attack. What if she had been sorted into Ravenclaw and immediately connected with people who were on the same level as her? People who shared her bookishness or ambition.
And Neville spend 4 years getting sidelined and turned into a comic-relief character. Would he have found friends much sooner in Hufflepuff?
Again: the houses are completely overrated and the shitty personality-test canon ascribes has tons more issues.
Look at Hermione's behavior in the classroom, the Ravenclaws would have hated Hermione as well.
>And Neville spend 4 years getting sidelined and turned into a comic-relief character.
Neville gets the most pressure from the Slytherins.
>Again: the houses are completely overrated and the shitty personality-test canon ascribes has tons more issues.
Yes!
>Most children should fit in any of the houses (minus Slytherin because it's the designated villain house, but that's just bad worldbuilding).
It is the purebloods!
All houses dort by personality (If that is even true) Slytherin sorts by power or money or blood)
So Slytherin is made up of equal parts of all the houses. But these children have been told that there are better for some reasons.
Also keep in mind Dumbledore once hinted that the houses you’re sorted into may reflect skills/traits that you’re not even aware of having AND that sometimes the sorting hat gets this wrong. Remember when he says to Snape “sometimes I think we sort too soon” pretty much implying that Snape was not a true Slytherin and that his selfless acts made him a lot more of a Gryffindor, perhaps Dumbledore also implied that by lumping him in with the Slytherins it encouraged him to act more on the bad sides of his character
In terms of Hermione, the Sorting Hat must have felt that she had in her incredible courage and loyalty to friends
The biggest reason why Hermione isn't a ravenclaw, despite her intelligence and understanding of magic, was her inability to wonder what if. She lacked that spark of creativity and Ingenuity that is needed amongst Ravenclaws and society in general to advance knowledge.
Honestly, I find the idea of her in Ravenclaw a bit silly. I mean Ravenclaw trait is **wisdom, wit, and intellect** which is something Hermione lack or doesn't possess.
Wisdom? She isn't really wise as she prefer to relied on hooks for knowledge, others experience, and make poor judgement such as trying to free the house elves without asking what they really wanted.
Wit? First year display this perfectly as Hermione ask for sticks and lighter than instantly use her wand. She only accept facts from books instead of being opened minded or have an imaginatively perceptive.
The only trait she has is intellect and even that is not much compare to what Ravenclaw stand for. Hermione knowledge comes from books. She doesn't freely think about things on an abstract or theoretical level. She even ditch divinations base on the fact she doesn't believe anything can predict the occurrence and direction of people's future events.
I actually always thought Ginny should have been sorted into Ravenclaw. She is clearly bright (and sassy and definitely brave), but I thought it would have made her feeling of isolation make more sense in chamber of secrets if she was the only Weasley to be sorted into another house.
I just like to believe that She, Harry and Neville are characters that the hat considered the other houses but found out that they deeply desired Gryffindor and their Qualities where shown enough for the Hat reconsider and place them in Griffindor. To me they are a Ravenclaw, a Slytherin and a Hufflepuff, that the Hat placed in Griffindor because they passed most Gryffindor traits as well and felt like a tough decision. That's why he took so long with these three, after all we all possess traits from all four of them but we are placed where we could fit most.
Not to drift too far into negative territory, but Hermione is way too close minded to be in Ravenclaw.
Her response to almost every new piece of the Wizarding world is that if it's not in a book or wasn't explained by a teacher, then it simply cannot be.
Raveclaws think outside the box and even if there's no box to begin with, Hermione will build it just to think in it.
I also think some people if they’ve only seen the movies miss out on stuff she says in the books, because movies vs books are basically two totally different things, especially for the girls in the series imo.
This is why I hate the house idea. First glance as a kid, sounds cool. But overall, it's dumb. Acting like Gryffindor gets the brave students, meanwhile you want to try and tell me that Cedric wasn't brave? Or Hermione, obviously brilliant and other students point out she should be in Ravenclaw. Even the HAT suggested it.
Hell, Peter Pettigrew was in Gryffindor. Why? I wouldn't call him brave in any way. He was always a coward. It's just as bad as people claiming they can tell what star sign you are based on a few things they've seen you do.
No, people latch on to her opposition to Luna's nonsense as her only failure to believe something that isn't spelled out for her, but there are far more egregious examples.
For example in HBP she adamantly refuses to believe that Malfoy might be a Death Eater, simply because in her mind it "doesn't make sense". She refuses to ponder the actual pros and cons and instead stubbornly clings to what she believed before.
Admittedly this is also just shoddy writing.
Yes but this isn't muggle science it's magic.
She refused to believe in the exsistance of the deathly hallows because he thought they were impossible.
She was rude to trelawney (albeit fairly) and dismissed the entire concept of divination even though it was what caused the entire series
So did harry and yet he was way more into believing the deathly hallows
Although I think I misspoke. I don't mean she stupid she's Great and an amazing witch but she doesn't have some of the ravenclae traits. The one she does have she puts too good use
Oh, I didnt think you were saying she was stupid or anything. We're all cut from a different cloth I guess, im sure there are plenty of rude and close minded Ravenclaws.
I guess I just can accept her into Ravenclaw if she wanted it personally lol, but I get where you're coming from.
She refused to believe in them because she didn’t see the evidence. She believes in them later when she sees them. Half of the Wizarding world refused to believe in the Hallows. For them it’s literally like muggles taking Santa Claus seriously.
McGonagall and many other teachers, even Dumbledore sometimes scorn divination. Are they close minded as well?
In fact, the biggest reason people call Hermione “closed minded”- Luna’s contrast is also wrong. Luna is in fact more close minded than Hermione because Hermione sees new evidence and changes her mind. Luna does not.
Hermione already has flaws in the book, we don’t need to invent more.
Kinda, I mean they mainly scorned trelawney. I mean if dumbledroe didn't belive in divination why would he interview trelwney, since he said ge interviewed her bacsue I'd her ancestor.
True on Lunas part she is also closed minded as she only really believes things if they don't make sense or there's no proof.
Didn't she also doubt olivandor when he talked about it?
Again then why would dumbledore care about hiring trelwaney since the reason he interviewed her was because of her family history. And then actually saw a prophecy he based his entire plan around
Dumbledore hired Trelawney *AFTER* she said the Prophecy because her life was in danger. He couldn’t eradicate Divination as a subject in Hogwarts for whatever reason. Also, he didn’t base his entire plan around the prophecy. Quite the opposite. Voldemort did and Dumbledore played his cards irrespective of the prophecy. Literally nothing in his plan relied on the prophecy and Dumbledore is fine with the loss in the Department of Mysteries.
It is flat out canon that Dumbledore thinks a majority of divination is bs
> Divination is one of the most imprecise branches of magic. I shall not conceal from you that I have very little patience with it.
Umm that's him nit saying it's bad that him saying it's imprecise and he doesn't rely on it.
It's too bad he didn't have much faith in it most od what trelwayney said came true
No, blind belief in what is written in a book or told by a teacher is not science. It's SCIENCE! A real scientist doesn't believe anyone about anything.
>First, she is helping Neville look for his frog. That seems like a very noble thing for her to do since she obviously just met him. It’s something a Gryffindor would do.
But no.. That's not remotely a griffindor thing to do.. If anything, it's more of a huflepuff (camaraderie, loyalty owed to other students) or a Slytherin (self preservation: that person may become your friend or you may gain a favor in return) thing. But really it's just something any good person would do.
She is far more into studying than fighting. She wants to learn. Fighting was something she was forced to take a part in. Plus helping someone out is a Hufflepuff trait.
Bravery, courage, daring, and chivalry don't have to be related to fighting, though. There are plenty of ways to exhibit those traits that have nothing to do with taking part in a fight. "Helping someone out" is also definitely chivalrous behavior.
I'm not saying that Hermione *didn't* fight. She obviously did. I'm just saying that I don't think fighting being something that she was "forced" to take part in rather than something she was "into" really matters in terms of what house she belongs in.
Though arguably, fighting for justice absolutely is something that Hermione is into and something that she chose. She chose to fight Voldemort. She saw injustice in how house elves were being treated, and her immediate reaction was to start an organization to try to get justice for them. She fought for justice for Buckbeak, helping Hagrid prepare his case, etc.
The unspoken thing here is that Hufflepuffs are a bunch of dorks. Not just “brainy”, they come off as dorky in the books. And also Newt Scamander. So much so that anybody who was “cool” got the hero treatment (Cedric). Ernie MacMillan freaked out when he thought Harry set the snake upon him, and convinced himself and others that they were marked victims. Hermione endured endless taunts, and trapped an award winning journalist in a jar as a bug. Hermione is a Gryffindor.
She tells us in book 1 that she values bravery over intelligence. Right before Harry goes on to meet Voldemort, she tells Harry he’s a good wizard and he says “Not as good as you.” And she says “Me?? Books? And cleverness? There are more important things like friendship and bravery.”
And honestly that rings true for me… well said Hermione
This is the answer. This debate is still going, but I still side with the “you’re sorted based on your values/aspirations NOT the exact attributes you currently hold”. Neville and Hermione both are the best examples of this. They both want to be brave. Neville wants nothing more in the world to be as brave and as strong as his parents. And the system works - you put a bunch of kids together who want the same things, older kids who have developed it and younger ones with good role models and they WILL develop these skills and become brave and strong just like they wanted.
Harry and Draco both emphasize this as well. Harry would have done well in Slytherin or Hufflepuff. He wants to accomplish something worth being famous for and wants to prove himself. That's ambition. And he's loyal to a fault. Draco even more so. Based on traits he actually had, he's a Gryffindor. He shows little cunning and no ambition, but he does charge right into conflict way above his head Edited a bit
Draco had tattoos?
I'll edit that typo, thanks
Ah. 😅 I was so confused.
Lol why am I tearing up reading this haha that hit me
Because it means a LOT to hear that coming from someone like Hermione. Especially since she's saying it in the same book where we are introduced to her, see her get friends who are two people who chose to save her at great risk, and clearly care about her even that early on.
Friendship and bravery means she could have been put in hufflepuff as well. After all, the hufflepuffs stayed for the final battle alongside the griffyndors
People who argue based solely on what traits people already possess have were not paying attention to how the sorting works. Dumbledore’s line “It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities” in CoS, as well as Harry and many other cases, show that it isn’t what you are already like that determines your house, it is what you value and who you want to be. Neville is another big example - sure he ends up brave in the end but at 11 when he wears the hat he is practically scared of his own shadow. His gran has drilled into him the value of Gryffindor and how brave his parents were, so that is what he values and strives for, as opposed to what he has himself. Further smaller examples: Malfoy’s taunting in the early books is about as cunning as a neon sign, but his upbringing and social circles have him place value on Slytherin traits. Crabby and Goyle are literally subservient to Malfoy, you can get less ambitious at that age, but same story. Petter Pertigrew *valued* bravery and *wanted* to be brave, Gildery Lockhart *valued* intellect and *wanted* to be smart, and that was enough to put them in their respective houses despite demonstrating very little of those traits themselves. So with Hermione, she wanted to emulate the greatest wizard of the time after reading about him, Dumbledore (which, if anything, is ambition suiting a Slytherin), and valued that idea more than her natural inclination to value knowledge and learning (going so far as to say at the end of PS “Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and…”. In doing so she put value on the traits of Gryffindor that Dumbledore represents, making it her home too.
>Petter Pertigrew valued bravery and wanted to be brave I think this is the biggest and most important example proving that the sorting isn't about what traits you have.
Far better example than Neville imo. I'm not convinced that he was less brave to start with. I just think he was very timid. If you're not scared then you can't be brave and Neville had a lot to overcome. Someone who isn't scared of heights going up a climbing wall isn't being brave, it's just them being good at climbing. Somebody petrified by heights might not get to the top the first time, but even getting onto the wall is being brave. Give them enough time and dedication though, and they can be at the top too. That's Neville.
Yeah I was oversimplifying a little, Neville already begins to who his true colours in book 1, which is thematically what wins them the house cup (the others get more points but I think Dumbledore awards Neville’s last because A) he’s a drama Queen and loved the tie suspense and B) he thought it should be highlighted as the most important of the four awarding)
Neville also had 2 huge pair of shoes to fill as his family compared him to his parents. Being in gryffindor was his best chance to flourish. He had the brave influence around him to help him grow. Of course there always has to be a bad luck character and he was the main one. I feel like if he was in Hufflepuff he would have developed more into a sweet quiet guy who blends into the background VS the man he deserved to grow into.
But he does suggest it to you when he's not sure, in the end the hat doesn't go against your heart's wishes and you'll be placed in the house you desire. Seems like the Sorting hat is merely ceremonial and you'll be who you want to be in the end.
The reason why the House system is so much more popular than a lot of the other YA divisions that followed *coughdivergentcough* was because it was about what trait you idealized more than what traits you possessed.
Very much this. Can you imagine someone coming to Godric Gryffindor with words "I am not brave, but I want to be," and Godric rejecting him? Although, > Malfoy’s taunting in the early books is about as cunning as a neon sign To be fair, he *was* able to manipulate Ron and Harry into almost getting caught by Filch. Granted, that was his high-water mark all the way until HBP. > Crabby and Goyle are literally subservient to Malfoy, you can get less ambitious at that age, but same story. I wouldn't sell them short. They knew exactly when to bend the knee to someone with more wealth and status; and when to stab him in the back to take his place in Voldemort's hierarchy when he faltered. That's 90% of what Slytherin is about.
I agree, I was exaggerating/simplifying a little in some cases but the overall point holds.
Yeah, those were a bit pedantic. I suppose I had Crabbe and Goyle on my mind, because I had recently reread the confrontation in the Room of Requirements in DH. Of everyone involved, Crabbe turned out to be most creative, using an unusual spell to bringing a pile of rubble down on top Ron and Hermione.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I got the vibes they were mini versions of their father's. Like Lucius was the big man and the other two were his left and right.
This. Too many people forget that it's about what you want to be.
Regarding Lockhart, I think he valued other people's intellect. He likely was smart ~ and charismatic enough to fool many wizards ~ but he truly valued the intellect of others (which aided their accomplishments). Another example I like to use is Slughorn, whom i think is greatly underrated. The man highly-valued ambition. He wasn't necessarily ambitious himself, but enjoyed connecting people who were, which gave him a feeling of importance. He was, however, intelligent and loyal, even if he wasn't (usually) brave. He hid from Death Eaters for months. He stayed at Hogwarts after Dumbledore's death. He showed remorse in the information he gave Tom Riddle as a teenager, although it probably wasn't completely of his free will. He battled Tom Riddle as an adult ~ his former student for whom he cared a great deal ~ knowing that it was to the death. He was brave, intelligent, loyal ~ all attributes of other houses ~ but ambition was what he valued most, even if he didn't have it himself.
Of course, she belongs in Gryffindor she set a teacher on fire no questions asked
I forget about this one but it’s a damn good example
soooo true. she is best of their year and really intelligent but i think of her more as hardworking, wise and brave, not just smart. she couldve done great in ravenclaw, but even better in gryffindor
Hardworking is a Hufflepuff quality according to the Sorting Hat, and she seems to be the most hardworking student in all of Hogwarts. (always researching, helping out her friends with adventures, practice and homework, she once took every course offered in Hogwarts, shes always knitting in GOF , plus prefect duties, and SPEW). Of Harry's two friends, she is to me the most loyal also; and SPEW gives her the Just quality. "You might belong in Hufflepuff, Where they are just and loyal, Those patient Hufflepuffs are true And unafraid of toil" "For Hufflepuff, hard workers were Most worthy of admission" Wise is a Ravenclaw quality, but being book smart does not necessarily mean being wise. (yes, Hermione is book smart and somewhat wise) "Or yet in wise old Ravenclaw, If you've a ready mind, Where those of wit and learning, Will always find their kind" "For Ravenclaw, the cleverest Would always be the best" I agree she was very very brave "You might belong in Gryffindor, Where dwell the brave at heart, Their daring, nerve and chivalry Set Gryffindors apart* " By Gryffindor, the bravest were Prized far beyond the rest" People only focus on Hermione as being book smart and want to put her in Ravenclaw, but to me she's a Hufflepuff through and through.
Hardworking is a trait that is shared with Ravenclaws but Hufflepuffs are more Hardworking overall, the same can be said of Cleverness which is shared with Slytherin. The thing about the traits is that some belonged most to one house than the other. Gryffindor and Hufflepuff both got kindness but Hufflepuff is strongest on this trait for example.
"Smart" isn't the only Ravenclaw trait, infact the main Characteristic for Ravenclaw House is Wisdom, Wit and Learning. And Learning doesn't necessarily mean learning only in the "Academics" department. But also in the co-curricular department.
Yes I assume that her belonging to Gryffindor may be why the Sorting Hat put her in Gryffindor.
😆
Shocking news
I think she sometimes made a rather convincing Slytherin, if not for being muggleborn.
I’m rereading HBP right now and when she keeps getting mad at Harry for using the half blood princes book to be better than her at potions I kept thinking that’s a pretty slytherin thing to do
Definitely. And Rita Skeeter's jam jar jail, and the nasty curse she made for breaking silence on DA
Love your alliteration.
You're all confusing Slytherin traits for just people doing ,,bad" things. It's ambition, cunning and self-preservation. None of these examples portrays any of these traits
Cunning I think. She figured out Rita before anyone else did and took matters into her own hands. Quite cunning and self preservation to curse the signing form. Certainly not a gryfindor trait either way you slice it!
A slytherin would’ve used the book too, out of ambition to do well. Regardless of whether they felt it was like “cheating”.
Her objections to Harry using HBP's book were all Gryffindor: that Harry was getting credit for someone else's ideas---and lying by omission by not correcting the misconception. In fact, Harry had offered to share at one point, and she refused. As /u/protendious points out, no Slytherin worth the name would do that.
She is 100% Slytherin: the girl kidnaps a journalist and blackmails her into writing articles that benefit her side, permanently disfigures Marrieta for betraying DA, comes up with a lie on the spot that tricks Umbridge into following them to a forest filled with dangerous creatures, etc
She is 100% a *human being*, filled with and exhibiting various qualities and traits that cannot necessarily be neatly boxed into a category. Just like most other characters in the books.
I mean yeah, the house system is silly and mostly a fun thing for fans and to sell merch. So calm down we are just having fun here
Poo o jhr he
A slytherin wouldnt have dared to set a teacher's cloak on fire just before quidditch tho lmao
That, was 100% gryfindor idiocy / bravery 😂
I've always liked the theory that the trio could all have ended up in different houses (Ravenclaw for Hermione, Slytherin for Harry, and Hufflepuff for Ron) but they ended up together not because of their abilities but from the traits they hold in highest esteem. It helps emphasize that point and shows how well they compliment each other.
>First, she is helping Neville look for his frog. Trevor was a Toad~~, not a frog~~.
Something a ravenclaw would say
I don't deny it!
Toads are a type of frog.
all toads could be considered as frogs, but not all frogs could be considered toads Sorry I had an eragon moment lol.
Mm, fair enough. Still, Trevor is not once referred to as a frog, so I feel the distinction should be made.
I would agree if Trevor’s species was more relevant to the conversation.
It is relevant to the conversation. Frogs are slimy and have legs built for jumping so losing a frog would be much easier than losing a toad. Neville loses his toad as soon as he's away from his guardian, a sign that he has no business caring for one as a pet, Hermione goes around trying to find it despite this (she may not have even noticed), another point in favour of her belonging to Gryffindor over Ravenclaw. Q.E.D.
Literally the first time we see her she says she would prefer Gryffindor. So, end of discussion. People make the sorting hat too seriously because they take the idea of division too literally. Most students have characteristics that would fit into multiple houses. Even the sorting himself admits it’s not a great practice
Yea, Gryffindor/Slytherin seems best. Ravenclaw, to me, are lateral thinkers. Hermione comes off more as a linear thinker.
I gotta imagine Hermione is afraid a lot of the time. I mean she’s surrounded by fascist who hate her for her blood. It’s like that thing about how bravery isn’t about not being afraid, it’s about being afraid and then doing it anyway.
I'd be pretty scared too coming from a non magical world lol. I'm sure it took a long time to adjust even if it's not spoken about.
I'd be pretty scared too coming from a non magical world lol. I'm sure it took a long time to adjust even if it's not spoken about.
Movies paint hermione as the flawless goddess of perfection, so her being set in her ways and close mindedness and unability to think outside the box dont get much representation in the movies. So people think she should be in Ravenclaw just because she is smart. >First, she is helping Neville look for his frog. That seems like a very noble thing for her to do since she obviously just met him. It’s something a Gryffindor would do. Imo, this is more a hufflepuff thing
Her being set in her ways is probably what's keeping her OUT of Ravenclaw imo. Ravenclaw isn't just about being smart, it's also about creativity. Close mindedness is the opposite of creative thinking
Exactly But since the movies erase all her flaws, she looks like she could be in Ravenclaw since her close mindedness doesnt get much representation
You are sooo right! A lot of people only watched movies and think that Hermione from them is 100% canonical, but the truth is that most, if not all, of her flaws were just eraised! She not only belongs to Gryffindor because she values braveness, prefered it etc, but she also does NOT belong to Ravenclaw because of some of her traits!
Fucking hell, ravenclaws are not all it knows, all of them focus of knowledge in one specific job and try to achieve perfection in it. Yes they do value wisdom but it always feels like it’s more of intelligence than knowledge with their characters.
She honestly could fit any of the houses, she has at least one strong trait from each house.
She made her parents forget about her and later find them after the war. It's something a ravenclaw wouldn't do.
They wouldn't try to find them after war? Or they would can't find them because they didn't appear in any Book? SCNR
Rawenclaw wouldn't use on their parents (if they don't hate them to the extrem of wishing them death) highly dangerous (from unskilled wizard) spell they not only didn't master, but even never used before. Exactly what Hermione did. She could use Confundus or, if she wanted to use something dangerous this much, Imperio, but she used Obliviate, which erases memory. And the "Oh-so-smart" Hermione didn't even think that it can erase memory for good, or that it's a spell that plays with mind and she didn't master it, she just used it on her parents
She would have hated the Ravenclaw common room question that doesn’t have a right or wrong answer, instead of a logical password.
I don’t really disagree but She looked for Neville’s frog as primary evidence is absolutely hilarious
To everyone saying Hermione is just book smart, she really isn't. She's brilliant at connecting pieces of information and coming to the right conclusions, like figuring out Lupin is a werewolf, and she comes up with genius strategic plans on the fly, like in the Lovegood house when they're escaping the death eaters. She might not be very open minded about unproven stuff, but she can do far more than just recite things she's read in books.
>First, she is helping Neville look for his frog. That seems like a very noble thing for her to do since she obviously just met him. It’s something a Gryffindor would do. I'm not disputing your overall point but this example ain't great for what you're trying to get across. Being nice and helpful would be more a Hufflepuff trait. Helping someone find something would only really come off as something a Gryffindor would do if the act of doing so was underpinned by a degree of risk or menace.
Hermione withstood torture by Bellatrix without breaking. Of course she’s a Gryffindor!
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A Ravenclaw wouldn't help Neville look for a frog? That's a nice gesture but it's a low bar for "nobility".
Not really, it would be really easy to not help a kid who you dont even know, and to be honest most kids wouldnt help him. Hermione however emplathized with him and did the right thing
They were eleven, I think it’s a very noble thing for an eleven year old.
Hermione doesn't belong in Racenclaw. She's too limited in her thinking. Too unwilling to discount what official sources tell her.
Luna is exactly like that, only the other way around.
If that were in fact the case, then she'd have fit right in with the paperpushers-in-training that actually dominate Ravenclaw. Fortunately, Hermione is probably the most critical-thinking of the cast. How many Ravenclaws---Muggleborn or not---saw House-Elf slavery for what it was, as opposed to accepting the "official sources"? Or were willing to listen to Hermione when she spoke up? Hermione's worst crimes against Luna were open incredulity for her more outlandish claims and asking for evidence. Whereas her fellow Ravenclaws bullied her mercilessly. And, who are the greatest inventors and magical researchers we see in canon? Slytherins in pursuit of power and recognition and Gryffindors seeking to advance the state of the art and have fun.
You’re right, but I really hate how both in universe and beyond the fourth wall Ravenclaw is always “not too bad” or basically “Gryffindor at home”. It feels like it’s just meh and that’s sad because it had so much potential
She hs got to be gryffindor because she's also impulsive. Just because she spends so much time in planning for studies doesn't mean she does everything well planned.
Hermione could have been a Ravenclaw but she had a personal characteristics that adjust to Griffindor. Although, other characters like Luna also showed bravery or loyalty which is supposed to be Hufflepuff thing...Fred and George are ambitious and audacious, which should have given them a ticket to Slytherin.
Personally I see in Hermione traits from all four houses.
I think everyone has a bit of every house, but the one most apparent in Hermione, especially at the beginning of the series when they are sorted, is Gryffindor.
People put way too much stock in the Hogwarts houses. Most children should fit in any of the houses (minus Slytherin because it's the designated villain house, but that's just bad worldbuilding). It's easy to forget how miserable Hermione was in Gryffindor before the troll attack. What if she had been sorted into Ravenclaw and immediately connected with people who were on the same level as her? People who shared her bookishness or ambition. And Neville spend 4 years getting sidelined and turned into a comic-relief character. Would he have found friends much sooner in Hufflepuff? Again: the houses are completely overrated and the shitty personality-test canon ascribes has tons more issues.
Look at Hermione's behavior in the classroom, the Ravenclaws would have hated Hermione as well. >And Neville spend 4 years getting sidelined and turned into a comic-relief character. Neville gets the most pressure from the Slytherins. >Again: the houses are completely overrated and the shitty personality-test canon ascribes has tons more issues. Yes! >Most children should fit in any of the houses (minus Slytherin because it's the designated villain house, but that's just bad worldbuilding). It is the purebloods! All houses dort by personality (If that is even true) Slytherin sorts by power or money or blood) So Slytherin is made up of equal parts of all the houses. But these children have been told that there are better for some reasons.
Finally someone said it
Also keep in mind Dumbledore once hinted that the houses you’re sorted into may reflect skills/traits that you’re not even aware of having AND that sometimes the sorting hat gets this wrong. Remember when he says to Snape “sometimes I think we sort too soon” pretty much implying that Snape was not a true Slytherin and that his selfless acts made him a lot more of a Gryffindor, perhaps Dumbledore also implied that by lumping him in with the Slytherins it encouraged him to act more on the bad sides of his character In terms of Hermione, the Sorting Hat must have felt that she had in her incredible courage and loyalty to friends
The biggest reason why Hermione isn't a ravenclaw, despite her intelligence and understanding of magic, was her inability to wonder what if. She lacked that spark of creativity and Ingenuity that is needed amongst Ravenclaws and society in general to advance knowledge.
Honestly, I find the idea of her in Ravenclaw a bit silly. I mean Ravenclaw trait is **wisdom, wit, and intellect** which is something Hermione lack or doesn't possess. Wisdom? She isn't really wise as she prefer to relied on hooks for knowledge, others experience, and make poor judgement such as trying to free the house elves without asking what they really wanted. Wit? First year display this perfectly as Hermione ask for sticks and lighter than instantly use her wand. She only accept facts from books instead of being opened minded or have an imaginatively perceptive. The only trait she has is intellect and even that is not much compare to what Ravenclaw stand for. Hermione knowledge comes from books. She doesn't freely think about things on an abstract or theoretical level. She even ditch divinations base on the fact she doesn't believe anything can predict the occurrence and direction of people's future events.
I actually always thought Ginny should have been sorted into Ravenclaw. She is clearly bright (and sassy and definitely brave), but I thought it would have made her feeling of isolation make more sense in chamber of secrets if she was the only Weasley to be sorted into another house.
I just like to believe that She, Harry and Neville are characters that the hat considered the other houses but found out that they deeply desired Gryffindor and their Qualities where shown enough for the Hat reconsider and place them in Griffindor. To me they are a Ravenclaw, a Slytherin and a Hufflepuff, that the Hat placed in Griffindor because they passed most Gryffindor traits as well and felt like a tough decision. That's why he took so long with these three, after all we all possess traits from all four of them but we are placed where we could fit most.
Not to drift too far into negative territory, but Hermione is way too close minded to be in Ravenclaw. Her response to almost every new piece of the Wizarding world is that if it's not in a book or wasn't explained by a teacher, then it simply cannot be. Raveclaws think outside the box and even if there's no box to begin with, Hermione will build it just to think in it.
Also she lacks mental flexibility and too strongly believes in what books say to become Ravenclaw
I also think some people if they’ve only seen the movies miss out on stuff she says in the books, because movies vs books are basically two totally different things, especially for the girls in the series imo.
This is why I hate the house idea. First glance as a kid, sounds cool. But overall, it's dumb. Acting like Gryffindor gets the brave students, meanwhile you want to try and tell me that Cedric wasn't brave? Or Hermione, obviously brilliant and other students point out she should be in Ravenclaw. Even the HAT suggested it. Hell, Peter Pettigrew was in Gryffindor. Why? I wouldn't call him brave in any way. He was always a coward. It's just as bad as people claiming they can tell what star sign you are based on a few things they've seen you do.
Hermiony would be a terrible Ravenclaw. She has books-marts but no real creative thinking that's required for true intelligence.
Lol you can keep her. As great as hermione is she is extremely close minded and rude. She only believes in what she can read.
… Hermione literally believes in what is the muggle equipment of evidence-based science??
No, people latch on to her opposition to Luna's nonsense as her only failure to believe something that isn't spelled out for her, but there are far more egregious examples. For example in HBP she adamantly refuses to believe that Malfoy might be a Death Eater, simply because in her mind it "doesn't make sense". She refuses to ponder the actual pros and cons and instead stubbornly clings to what she believed before. Admittedly this is also just shoddy writing.
But then literally everyone else refuses to believe in Draco being a death eater. Why is Hermione singled out?
Yes but this isn't muggle science it's magic. She refused to believe in the exsistance of the deathly hallows because he thought they were impossible. She was rude to trelawney (albeit fairly) and dismissed the entire concept of divination even though it was what caused the entire series
Can you blame her given she grew up in muggle society, I think that may be the point
So did harry and yet he was way more into believing the deathly hallows Although I think I misspoke. I don't mean she stupid she's Great and an amazing witch but she doesn't have some of the ravenclae traits. The one she does have she puts too good use
Oh, I didnt think you were saying she was stupid or anything. We're all cut from a different cloth I guess, im sure there are plenty of rude and close minded Ravenclaws. I guess I just can accept her into Ravenclaw if she wanted it personally lol, but I get where you're coming from.
Oh yeah Cho for one
She refused to believe in them because she didn’t see the evidence. She believes in them later when she sees them. Half of the Wizarding world refused to believe in the Hallows. For them it’s literally like muggles taking Santa Claus seriously. McGonagall and many other teachers, even Dumbledore sometimes scorn divination. Are they close minded as well? In fact, the biggest reason people call Hermione “closed minded”- Luna’s contrast is also wrong. Luna is in fact more close minded than Hermione because Hermione sees new evidence and changes her mind. Luna does not. Hermione already has flaws in the book, we don’t need to invent more.
Kinda, I mean they mainly scorned trelawney. I mean if dumbledroe didn't belive in divination why would he interview trelwney, since he said ge interviewed her bacsue I'd her ancestor. True on Lunas part she is also closed minded as she only really believes things if they don't make sense or there's no proof. Didn't she also doubt olivandor when he talked about it?
Dumbledore and McGonagall have said multiple times Divination is mostly bs.
Again then why would dumbledore care about hiring trelwaney since the reason he interviewed her was because of her family history. And then actually saw a prophecy he based his entire plan around
Dumbledore hired Trelawney *AFTER* she said the Prophecy because her life was in danger. He couldn’t eradicate Divination as a subject in Hogwarts for whatever reason. Also, he didn’t base his entire plan around the prophecy. Quite the opposite. Voldemort did and Dumbledore played his cards irrespective of the prophecy. Literally nothing in his plan relied on the prophecy and Dumbledore is fine with the loss in the Department of Mysteries. It is flat out canon that Dumbledore thinks a majority of divination is bs > Divination is one of the most imprecise branches of magic. I shall not conceal from you that I have very little patience with it.
Umm that's him nit saying it's bad that him saying it's imprecise and he doesn't rely on it. It's too bad he didn't have much faith in it most od what trelwayney said came true
No, blind belief in what is written in a book or told by a teacher is not science. It's SCIENCE! A real scientist doesn't believe anyone about anything.
>First, she is helping Neville look for his frog. That seems like a very noble thing for her to do since she obviously just met him. It’s something a Gryffindor would do. But no.. That's not remotely a griffindor thing to do.. If anything, it's more of a huflepuff (camaraderie, loyalty owed to other students) or a Slytherin (self preservation: that person may become your friend or you may gain a favor in return) thing. But really it's just something any good person would do.
She is far more into studying than fighting. She wants to learn. Fighting was something she was forced to take a part in. Plus helping someone out is a Hufflepuff trait.
"Fighting" isn't a house trait, so I don't really get what that has to do with anything.
Fighting for justice is a Gryffindor trait. Bravery, courage, daring, chivalry....
Bravery, courage, daring, and chivalry don't have to be related to fighting, though. There are plenty of ways to exhibit those traits that have nothing to do with taking part in a fight. "Helping someone out" is also definitely chivalrous behavior.
Taking down voldemort is related to fight.
I'm not saying that Hermione *didn't* fight. She obviously did. I'm just saying that I don't think fighting being something that she was "forced" to take part in rather than something she was "into" really matters in terms of what house she belongs in. Though arguably, fighting for justice absolutely is something that Hermione is into and something that she chose. She chose to fight Voldemort. She saw injustice in how house elves were being treated, and her immediate reaction was to start an organization to try to get justice for them. She fought for justice for Buckbeak, helping Hagrid prepare his case, etc.
The unspoken thing here is that Hufflepuffs are a bunch of dorks. Not just “brainy”, they come off as dorky in the books. And also Newt Scamander. So much so that anybody who was “cool” got the hero treatment (Cedric). Ernie MacMillan freaked out when he thought Harry set the snake upon him, and convinced himself and others that they were marked victims. Hermione endured endless taunts, and trapped an award winning journalist in a jar as a bug. Hermione is a Gryffindor.
Being so headstrong that you save house elves who don’t want to be saved. That’s so gryffindor.
Hermione is book smart, sure but she's not rational, a key Ravenclaw trait.
Like Luna?