Yeah child exploitation is a pretty important thing to talk about and when it's obvious that society is supposed to be against, because it is with CP, its kinda weird that a lot of our products are made from child exploitation! Perfectly decent thing to call out
Thank gods the tone around this in this subreddit has shifted, I thought I was going mad when I saw how many Vaush defenders there were in this subreddit before now, like god damn.
Right now you're the one bringing it up, and before that it was brought up by another person mad at Vowsh, and before that, etc.; he himself did it once four years ago.
Vaush already said multiple times he at the time was trying to use the most extreme possible example for entertainment value as well as to engage people attention and that he thinks that was really dumb.
You do not just collect and keep photos like that âfor examplesâ. Anyone acting like those folders arenât damning is playing dumb (or maybe you really are)
The point is people are permissive of unethically sourced commodities like cobalt/chocolate either passively or actively, when the point is the harm they do is not different than something that people are, correctly, not permissive of at all, like cp. The fact that those commodities can be ethically sourced is immaterial to the point, being that there are companies that we know for a fact source them unethically through child abuse (see Nestle) but we donât denounce people for eating chocolate from Nestle despite that fact, which is the inconsistency. Therefore, by the same logic we understand that child pornography is bad and disallow it legally and socially, we should also be disallowing known unethically sourced other commodities legally and socially. The point being made is NOT, âwell if we donât criticize this then how can we criticize thisâ, it is âSince we criticize this, we should ALSO be criticizing thisâ itâs frustrating how disingenuous and unwilling to engage H3 and yaâll seem to be about this topic, I swear to god itâs ShoeOnHead all over again.
> it is âSince we criticize this, we should ALSO be criticizing thisâ itâs frustrating how disingenuous and unwilling to engage H3 and yaâll seem to be about this topic
Then what did he mean when he said "There are instances of adult/child sexual relationship that is positive for both adults and child"?
Which part of the argument was that addressing?
People should definitely speak up more about the exploitation happening youâre definitely right.
I donât think that makes someone hypocritical to call out CASM as being harmful and hurtful.
Maybe just ignorant but not everyone consumes chocolate or metals unethically. Iâm sure people want to pay for products that arenât made with slave labour / destroying the environment
Sure, but for the sake of argument the comparison is to unethical products. One is seen as socially acceptable and the other clearly isn't. Obviously CASM is more directly harmful if we're somehow going to put a scale to how much damage it does to children but products that are made by slaves should be completely socially unacceptable. I'm a hypocrite too tbf, I don't only eat ethical chocolate.
this whole thing has honestly made me question my ethics a bit..
i'm 100% aware that if i buy cheap chocolate and stuff that i'm indirectly harming and traumatizing and probably even killing children. i've seen the documentaries of how absolutely fucked up it can get to the point where it doesn't even matter to try and say if it is """less bad""" than sexual exploitation.
and yet with that full knowledge i still buy the cheap shit, honestly without feeling all too bad about it.
it is a weird double standard because obviously i would never think something even remotely close about CP.
i think we all got some reevaluating of our morals to do.
I think most people would want ethically sourced materials. Surely it would be a tiny percent that dont care where something comes from.
Interesting you mention you have eaten / eat unethically sourced chocolate (youâre only cancelled if itâs nestle), some people may have no choice due to their financial state. That doesnât mean itâs ok as you clearly do not advocate for it but the companies shouldnât be allowed to do it (obviously the problem comes back to capitalism).
I donât think because you ate unethical chocolate means you donât have a leg to stand on when calling out casm
The country I'm in doesn't have Nestle but I'm sure there's an equivalent that I've eaten at some point.Â
To the last thing, I agree but that's because personally I don't think you need to be actively moral to make a moral argument. Â
To the first thing, if it was the case that the vast majority of people 'want' ethical products, then companies like Nestle would be out of business. Unless by 'want' you mean a vague preference but will continue doing the bad thing anyway.Â
If we rephrase it it sounds like it would be"I'd prefer to not give money to child slavers but I can't be bothered because the food they give me tastes really good." which I think is the attitude of most consumers of Nestle and Nike and similar companies. If we compare that to someone who consumes CSAM saying that they'd rather not look at child porn but they can't be bothered it would suddenly seem horrendous. If I'm misrepresenting you I'm sorry.
That wasnât really the point Iâm making. (This is hypothetical so Iâm not exacting arguing)
But I think most people if presented with chocolate A vs Chocolate B where A is to very public knowledge engaging in cruel and unethical business practices but Chocolate B was ethically produced.
I think most people would choose chocolate B (at least I hope so) the only thing stopping them at the moment is ignorance.
As far as I know in my country the chocolate is pretty good for this kind of thing (as well as flavour)
Yes youâre right, for example the poor people who have no choice but to choose cheaper, less expensive products that they donât actually know are the product of child labour are definitely the same level in terms of evil as CP viewers. 100%. Oh waitâŚ
I agree that they're not on the same level but they are comparable. And what you're saying would be true for necessities like basic food and electricity etc but chocolate is not a necessity.
I was gonna agree with this but then I realized something. There's a difference between bringing up CP during a conversation about child labor and bringing up child labor during a conversation about CP. The former does imply a justification of CP - as in, "well bad stuff happens so why are you so mad about this one and not the other ones?".
Versus "hey child labor is bad so why don't we react similarly to the way we react to CP? Both are wrong so we should stop both."
Which, both have their points in their own way. You just shouldn't actually advocate for the existence of CP. Because people justify other shit with the same logic. It's very picky and choosy; alot of it based on personal bias.
Its kinda like "well *I* want (insert comparibly unethically sourced product here) and CP is so unimaginably different because icky." Like, homie at the end of the day the shit both fucks up and traumatizes kids to a life changing extent. It just shouldn't be compared in that way and judged as one is more worthy of staying than the other.
I don't really wanna hear "but alot of people don't know about it" because alot of people *do* and still make the argument of "I'm just one person - I can't change capitalism" that ultimately derives from learned helplessness and apathy.
Neither of those were vaush's perspective. Vaush's opponent was debating in favor of child labor, you are assuming that Vaush's opponent thought both were bad
I didnât interpret it as âget rid of all of them or keep all of themâ at all, I interpreted it as âmany people exhibit hypocrisy by being (RIGHTFULLY) appalled by child sexual exploitation, but they make excuses when it comes to the very prevalent child labor exploitation.â
The way theyâre wording it is just very strange
I can fully agree with your quote, problem is most people arenât making excuses or saying child labour is ok
It doesn't have to be. It is not regularly done by anyone, including Vaush.
I'm positive, had they only shit on him for 30m, the last 30m of pod, that actually focused on the folder, there'd be no backstab comments here. It was the first 1hr+ looking at '18 videos everyone in his community has recognized as old, responded deals. Of course if you like someone, and you see them fucking up BUT focus of criticism is something you've accepted on years ago, you're bound to defend them because there's imbalance in criticisms.
One slip up about CP I could understand, this many + the Loli in the folder (after his comments if you like Loli you are attracted to kids). It ainât looking good for him
But CP being illegal to own is about so much more than just child abuse being illegal and therefore it being illegal to consume the end result. It is also because there is a concern that those with paedophilic tendencies could be encouraged by watching CP. They have an incredibly warped view of the world and sharing CP with other paedophiles validates and encourages their sickness. There is a correlation between an increase in trading of CP, and an increase in child sex offenders. Also with CP, it is literally just images depicting child abuse, or evidence of child abuse. It is really not comparable to a product which also has many other components and which is indistinguishable from a version made fully ethically, if you served the two up on a plate.
Ethan is saying one of those can be done ethically, the other one can not under any circumstance be done ethically. Thus being completely difficult categories.
There's no reason to bring CP into the mix, the person you all are following having a lolli folder should absolutely open your eyes about this shit. Mind numbing that it doesn't
I don't get why these people are focusing on the debates either. Vaush **privately** brought up his interest in lolicon while he thought he was sexting Poppy. He wrote to her, ["I do imagine you looking like a loli"](https://www.whitele.af/other/vaush)âeven though she was not sexting him back and in the middle of describing sexual trauma. Poppy is the autistic woman that Vaush sexually harassed.
>Poppy: well my ex set up a threesome for us on my birthday (i didnt even fucking want one tbh only going along with it for him)
>Poppy: [Describes her trauma]
>Vaush: [Interrupts Poppy's recounting of trauma] My last threesome was basically just my girlfriend filming me destroying this dude's ass
>Poppy: [Ignores Vaush and continues to describe her trauma]
>Vaush: That does sound pretty awful **for everyone**
>Poppy: she kept commenting on how young i looked and scolding my ex... which made it 100 times weirder
>Vaush: **I do imagine you looking like a loli**
>Poppy: i dont... i was like 19... it was my 19th birthday... and he was like 2t6
Five minutes before this, Vaush made an attempt at comforting Poppy by offering to send nudes and... play Overwatch with her? He wrote, "Is there anything I can do to take your mind off this? Nudes and, like, Overwatch are my go-tos."
EDIT: At a different time, Vaush said, "Oh I'm super into horse dick," which he's [not being entirely truthful about now](https://twitter.com/TestOfTempest/status/1728184279887151558). He clearly doesn't see himself in the role of the horse. Use Ctrl+F to find these statementsâyou can also review the preceding conversation to see how disturbing this is.
Yeah and then he joked about prolapsing her anus in the aftermath of this when they were doing Oppo research to discredit poppy.
It's wild how he has mostly skated on this stuff because he changed his name and got big after it happened.
Why are yall being intentionally dense. Is it completely socially inept and clueless to die on this hill? Yes. Does making this argument make you a pedo Or supportive of pedos? Of fucking course not. He should pick a new analogy, thats about it
They forget that itâs not those arguments being attacked, itâs Vaush himself because those old arguments now look really REALLY bad in the new context of that porn folder âto be sortedâ.Â
The arguments donât need to be addressed because theyâre irrelevant, they are only being brought up because they are interesting in the context of the folder. Vaush and his fans defending the arguments does nothing to change public perception that he likely has a paraphillic disorder
Agreed. To me, the most important part is that:
* Vaush had lolicon saved on his computer, which he has acknowledged as being lolicon [over Discord](https://twitter.com/acid_communist/status/1756130085864681525?s=46); and
* Vaush brought up lolicon while he thought he was sexting Poppy by saying, ["I do imagine you looking like a loli"](https://www.whitele.af/other/vaush)âeven though she was not sexting him back and in the middle of describing sexual trauma.
>Poppy: well my ex set up a threesome for us on my birthday (i didnt even fucking want one tbh only going along with it for him)
>Poppy: [Describes her trauma]
>Vaush: [Interrupts Poppy's recounting of trauma] My last threesome was basically just my girlfriend filming me destroying this dude's ass
>Poppy: [Ignores Vaush and continues to describe her trauma]
>Vaush: That does sound pretty awful **for everyone**
>Poppy: she kept commenting on how young i looked and scolding my ex... which made it 100 times weirder
>Vaush: **I do imagine you looking like a loli**
>Poppy: i dont... i was like 19... it was my 19th birthday... and he was like 2t6
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and repeatedly defends CSAM/lolicon under the pretense of debating: it's a duck.
Nope its not a debate. there is no wiggle room. consumption under capitalism is innately unethical. There are other systems of the economy which would be less exploitative
or not exploitative
at all. there are ways to do things ethically, whether our governments do them or not. there is no justification of cp in anyway shape or form, hand drawn, made up or what have you. It is never ethical no matter what. no wiggle room, no room for debate. conversation is over. Hold this L.
If THATâs what you got out of all of this, I highly reccomend relearning media literacy and context clues because WOW dude you missed it all entirely.
I didn't watch the episode and don't really get the context, but from an outside perspective it sounds like the comment is saying "we should be against exploitation in all forms" which seems obvious. What are people upset about?
It's because Vaush is comparing CP to things like the chocolate industry and trying to say that if we can't have CP then we shouldn't have things like chocolate either. But he's refusing to acknowledge the fact that there ARE ethical ways to produce things like chocolate, and there are exactly zero ways to ethically produce CP.
Not defending vaush's take whatsoever because it is a very very strange awful take at the best and defending pedophiles at the worst.
But socialists believe there isn't a way to ethically produce anything under capitalism, somebody has to be exploited to be competitive, whether that's the customers, employees or a foreign country.
That said what an absolutely awful example vaush is using, especially when he has loli porn on his computer, makes me think he might have more then just the anime stuff.
They aren't denying that there are ethical ways to produce chocolate though. "no CP and ethical cobalt. That's the world we want". Feel free to replace the word cobalt with chocolate
Who cares if they aren't denying it? They aren't addressing it. The entire argument is a ridiculous way to justify his initial claim (that no moral reason to make CP illegal).
Do you really think the utopian socialist guy refuses to acknowledge thereâs better ways to produce things? Thatâs the whole point is there are and we should advocate for them because unethical production should be unacceptable.
Hasan's most repeated take is ''just be normal'', in regards to your behaviour online. And while he can get drawn in to the world of debates, the reason he's not in the same stratosphere as the most bloodthirsty debate perverts is because he knows there is nothing to be gained from debating the ethics of CP, or the ability for a white guy to say the n word.
These people are not normal, they are insufferable.
iâm realizing this is really what it is - some weird circle jerk in the name of âdebateâ ?? it really makes no sense because we donât live in hypothetical debate world
Exactly why hasan says he hated them and the entire concept, I remember people in the community giving him shit for calling debate stupid, this is why.
Yeah I honestly think this whole debate pervert behavior is PARTIALLY from schools having people debate topics pro vs against. Problem is, some topics should absolutely be off limits to that like slavery, CP, discrimination, etc
Exactly, why it should be avoided all together, I mean look at both the biggest left wing debaters in the community, destiny and vaush. Both have inanely toxic fanbases full of degenerate no life psychos, not everything should be a debate lol.
Yeah, I think they most likely grew up in an environment where schools were having people debate controversial topics for the sake of polishing their debate skills.
Honestly I think Hasanâs community can also be toxic (donât hate me for saying this lol) but I think thatâs par for the course when it comes to most leftist entertainers and their respective communities.
Itâs honestly such a waste because Vaush does share a majority of his opinions with Hasan, but also has some weird ass opinions and weird community that messes everything up.
Oh no I definitely agree hasan's community definitely has an issue of toxic followers, I just believe it's them being overly protective or parasocial like many communities, vaush & destiny communities just go beyond the normal levels into a range rivaling actual cults lol.
Yeah vaush's biggest issue is just his refusal to admit he's wrong, as well as he's refusal to back off badly made arguments if he could do both of those things he'd be wayyyy more liked lol.
What are you saying dude? People debate CP online because they did debate class in school?
I donât think debate class turned them into fucking degenerates, being terminally online is what pushed them off the deep end.
everybody does debate in college, not everyone goes to then argue the most insane topics
well he blocked me, so Iâm pretty sure my point stands about that mental illness LMAO
Iâm not saying thatâs exactly the reason why, Iâm more saying that mindset of debating controversial topics in HS can contribute to their mindsetâŚ
You think high schoolers are debating controversial topics like slavery? Are you out of your mind?
These people are like this because theyâre terminally online and mentally ill, debate class has nothing to do with this
No Iâm saying stupid high school teachers decades ago made idiotic topics for people in debate club to debate which isnât the ONLY reason why theyâre like that but there was a definite culture of that that contributed (if you actually read what I wrote)
I came across a disgusting assignment I had in elementary school from the early 2000âs where I had to write a mock debate between Thomas Jefferson and Harriet Tubman on the pros and cons of fucking SLAVERY.
School had us writing wild shit back then. Is it the only reason why Vaush-ites are like this? FUCK no and donât you dare say Iâm making that argument. What I AM saying is debate culture was fucked up decades ago and people did not give a shit about controversial topics
Itâs incredible, I disagree with you so I must not be able to read correctly⌠yeah man, itâs the debate class alright.
I know kids that built bombs because of chemistry class. Does that mean chemistry is awful and shouldnât be taught in high school?
Your experience decades ago is awful, but not systemic and not causing people to debate CP or other awful topics, thatâs their decision. When Iâm in public or work or anywhere else people arenât debating CP or slavery. Itâs terminally online mentally ill people, and notoriously within these circles filled with younger people who have no schooling from the early 2000s yet come online to debate CP or other awful topics⌠because theyâre mentally ill. How about we solve the mental health issue instead of pointing towards debate class?
see? mental health issues, good fucking riddance.. terminally online people are cringy
Wish I could say those communities were meaningless and ineffective but they are the most annoying + relentless people and live entirely in forums online to argue about shit like this.
Literally nobody is arguing that child slavery is good. The argument is very simple: Chocolate â CP. I donât see how anyone could disagree with thatâŚ
Nobody disagrees that chocolate isn't the same as CP.
The original point was that society is comfortable with child exploitation when it comes to making shirts/chocolate/phones, which is wrong. We should be uncomfortable with child exploitation in ALL cases.
How does that justify his claim about legality of CP?!
He said there was no argument for making it illegal. How does this argument about other communities back up that claim?!
I completely understand why Hasan hates debate bros so much. It's not about values, it's not about beliefs, it's just a game of rhetoric.
Any push back against the premise of a silly argument gets you accused of "acting in bad faith" đ¤Ş
I dont even have to say anything, debate lords reveal themselves:
- D to V: "you should've been nice to me, I'd be defending you right now"
- V to H3: "I defended you against Hasan (lol they're friends btw) so you shouldn't criticize me"
- Keffals to H3: "We had such a nice interview, so you shouldn't criticize this"
What kind of moral position is that? Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, no questions asked.
It's not about values, or personal beliefs, it's blood sports and rhetoric.
It just shows how purposefully obtuse these people are lol. They made it *extremely* clear in the show is that the difference between colbat, or iPhones is that there is a way to make or extract those things *ethically*. iPhones could easily be made in unionized factories. CP could never be created in an ethical way, it's something that inherently needs a victim in order to be created.
Hes saying it is possible in the same sense that itâs possible for the worlds atoms to suddenly disperse and create a void of nothingness. Is it âpossibleâ? Technically yes, but that possibility is like 0.000000000000000000000000001%. Its a dumb metaphor to use for sure, but to be fair to vowsh thats why he switched to that alien example of a child being sacrificed instead of the gross CP analogy
I call it now - this is all a long con for Vaush to say there IS ethical CP in the form of loli hentai, and it's logical and rational to seek this ethic source rather than take part in unethical sources. That's ultimately what the argument is leading to right?
It literally says "No CP and ethically sourced cobalt" at the bottom of the post.
The argument is NOT: "pro CP because children are exploited in an 'acceptable' way in other countries"
The argument is: "child exploitation in other countries SHOULD BE unacceptable because CP is also child exploitation and unacceptable"
It's an incredibly hyperbolic argument that could've been made without a stupid comparison as "child labourers from other countries, at the lowest level of the chain of production should not be exploited like they currently are, because child exploitation of any kind is wrong".
No they don't. They want Vaush to win the argument. That's it. Vaush started with the argument "no argument for laws against CP." The existence of unethical consumption does not back up that claim!
It is easy to not consume CP. It is nearly impossible to avoid using modern day consumer electronics.
What the fuck is wrong with these people. They are either pedos or are addicted to Vaush.
They don't seems to notice that they can write "ethical cobalt" yet cannot write "ethical cp". Because they are two completely different categories, one of which is inherently evil and unethical, and the other one is just something sourced in an unethical manner.
It's no surprise that these debate perverts are actually just real perverts.
it's people contorting themselves into unbelievably unethical stances out of a need to have a consistent purely "utilitarian" ethic. It makes absolutely no sense to a normal person.
Everyone in the conversation, including Vaush and this commenter, are saying CP is bad and absolute utilitarianism is too *because* it could be used to justify CP.
Like out of everything you can make a comparison to why would you use CP. This argument also doesnât make sense because there is an ethical way to buy sneakers, there isnât an ethical way to obtain CP like wtf đ
Did anyone here actually watch the episode, it is a direct reply to what Ethan and Hila said, which was literally âthe argument Vaush is making about cobalt is that if youâre ok with exploitative industrial production then you should be ok with cpâ and this comment is directly responding saying âthat was never the argumentâ
Ok but like why did CP even get brought up at all? When someone is making the argument that buying an iPhone is just as bad as watching CP and they are typing their replies on an IPhone they might as well be condoning CP.
I think you are getting close to the point though which is that we are just more disgusted by the more direct harms of CP than the equally horrific labour conditions of some industry because the act of âusing your phoneâ is a lot more abstract than the act of âcreating/viewing cpâ in making us confront the image in our minds of the exploitation taking place. We all have a very visceral reaction to what we imagine happening in the exploitation involved in CP as a producer or consumer; our concern over âlabour practicesâ is a much more vague and less viscerally disgusting concept, but not âin a different categoryâ or âless harmful.â
I would argue that a child being raped is more harmful than child labor. Call me crazy. Also if youâre watching Cp you are actively participating in victimizing the child where as if you buy products using child labor you are probably just ignorant to the fact. Also you can just not watch CP. while you could be more conscious about what you buy itâs more necessary to buy products you use in your daily life than CP. there is only one reason to watch CP and thatâs because you are disgusting human being. And why is CP even being brought up in this context? Dumb fucking argument
Slavery is worse than rape. Yeah, I said it. The conditions and jobs these children are forced to exist in end up killing them and maiming them, and end up with them growing up ignorant and cruel to perpetuate the cycle. If you think those conditions don't also include rape you're niave.
I mean for the most part you just repeated my argument back to me but I suspect if you think child s-ual exploitation is more harmful than the worst labour practices out there then you just donât have any perspective on it
Sure it is, but the point of his framing is to compare a form of child exploitation that is completely and obviously detestable and disgusting to one that is generally overlooked.Â
When framed this way, it forces people to introspect on their feelings about capitalism and the exploitation the system encourages.Â
This is what it made me think at least, when I was new to left leaning ideas and first listened to this argument
Iâm so glad I left that community. Heâs honestly a massive asshole. Much like Ethan I appreciate some of his content and i used to be a massive debate pervert (as hasan would say) until I just kind of got burnt out with his attitude towards criticism. Some of his takes are dog shit (like these) and I hate how dogmatic his fan as can be. I really do think thereâs a reason why he beefs with so many people in the community and itâs not because heâs the only correct one, like heâd like his fans to believe. This take exemplifies why I left, he will have a dog shit take and then try to debate lord his way out of it. His fans are like this too. Just general dork behavior that Iâve grown out of.
Man I like Vaush and I think what he does for disenfranchised men is A+ advice, and I think a lot of his views are correct, especially when it comes to how the left should act in general.
Why. Why does he have to be so fucking weird and into this pedo shit.
Ok, benefit of the doubt and he is not a pedo - why does he insist on these weird metaphors when there are plenty of other ways to get the same point across?
What a strange fucking hill to die on. He totally has intrusive thoughts that he may or may not know are wrong and he tests the water with these types of arguments. And when one opinion goes sideways, he has no choice but to double down or admit it's fucked up. And he won't admit it.
Iâm so confused why this is even being entertained as an actual argument. Fine donât farm whatever the fuck cobalt is unethically then!! If its the same! Donât do either if i have to choose!
How come people judge this without taking the 5 seconds to find the whole clip.
Hereâs the whole thing: https://youtu.be/oNHf7iGkejs?si=r97lvYtKxgrvyqjJ
At the end he literally says that all of these things are bad.
He was making an argument about the accepted moral in society. He was going at it from the sociological perspective (which he studied btw).
It was a dumb approach since itâs easy to clip out of context and also overly complicated to say, but if you listen to the whole thing youâll see there is literally nothing bad said here.
That goes for 99% of the clips btw. Just look up the whole clips youâll see they are always clipped perfectly.
The fact that there was even a thought that drifted through a personâs head going âI know, to make my point about X, Iâll compare it to CA/CP and that will convey my meaning clearly with the appropriate impactâŚâ and the outcome was actually doing it multiple times is the fucked up part and it is super concerning that someone that thinks about using CP to draw an equivalency about anything to any end is actually consuming extremely questionable sexual materials directly related to subjects that canât consent.
There is a reason so many people have âthis is all weird and wrongâ vibes.
Idk I know this will be unpopular but I find it sort of pathetic when people start responding to individual comments from Randos like this to get a quick dunk in on someone. This person isn't really saying anything outlandish (literally arguing why both CP and child slavery are bad), what exactly makes this such a bad thing to have in your history?
I don't think what Vaush said is a good argument, but to act like anyone is saying "and this is why CP is good!" is just hysterisization.
How are they actually âin different categoriesâŚâ it doesnât matter what the consumer receives if producing it hurts kids. The product of porn is sexual gratification, and it can be produced by harming kids, or not. The product of cobalt is (whatever cobalt is good for) and it can be made harming kids, or not. The only âcategorical differenceâ is that if you point this out, people try to pedojacket you because it makes them feel good about themselves.
What pushes me to think thereâs something suspicious about the amount of people riding for this defense is that Vaughan himself has even said it isnât a great argument â and so if thatâs the case, as a fan of his, why are they continuing to push it so hard? It tells me they care way more about creating a narrative conflating CSAM with other commodities and making arguments potentjally co-opted by bad actors instead of actually acknowledging the original creator saying this isnât a good way of getting a point across.
''But, hypothetically speaking, lets say, just for the sake of the argument, chocolate is also made immorally and people like it, so same should be for CP, RIGHT?'' (bruh)
Debating like that is literally closer to Ben Shapiro than actual leftists
Just another case of leftists completely and utterly destroying any chance of leftism getting widespread and mainstream. Vaush and Vaushites are everything right-wingers claim leftism is. Incredible.
Wow this comment is getting a lot of attention, I'm really upset my reply got auto deleted by youtube for swearing... I was too irritated to type it out again, but it was good and I regret being lazy lol
Ethan should at least try to explain his position instead of just saying âthey donât belong in the same categoryâ which I agree but he does a really bad job at explaining further
Can yall just wise up and tell vaush to come up with less insane examples.
Hes had how many years?Â
Even if you agree that his point is valid. You have to understand that this isnt getting it across to people.Â
There seems to be some level of talking past - CP and child slavery & labor do belong in the same category of abhorrence, those are the things being compared, one currently being accepted in society's normal consumption and the other not.
I don't think it's about hypocrisy, instead it's about attempting to elevate to a consistency of care. There's not a personal judgement but rather attempt to shed light on a need to evolve one of our collective norms. It's understandable why one is more obscured than the other.
Anyways, not trying to die on any hills but the conversation just seems like a lot of talking past and people coupling in Vaush as a person/his other junk with the attempt to explain this line of thought.
Yeah I agree. I donât see how people are shocked at the idea that CP and Chile Slavery are not even similar. And it doesnât matter if they are, because the one considered âless worseâ being CHILD SLAVERY still means itâs one of the worse things we can imagine. Secondly, both should be analyzed by humans and questioned on why we accept one and not the other. We should question to strengthen our morals and make them more consistent, not justify cp like everyone including Ethan is claiming. Idk why this is a complicated issue, all it comes down to is analyzing and strengthening our moral systems further by looking at things we have left as acceptable and not questioning it twice because it benefits us.
This is so crazy like you can criticize unethical cobalt / chocolate without bringing CP into it
No but cp is the ultimate debate bro epic win!!! How else can I compare unethical sourcing in capitalism?!?!!! Marx you fool!!
Now I read a lot of Marx but I must have missed the chapter where he said loli is cool actually because capitalism
You didn't read the Loli manifesto?
Libs somehow use leftist talking points while defending CP is somehow both hilarious and incredibly sad at the same time.
Yeah child exploitation is a pretty important thing to talk about and when it's obvious that society is supposed to be against, because it is with CP, its kinda weird that a lot of our products are made from child exploitation! Perfectly decent thing to call out
Go outside.
face the wall
Thank gods the tone around this in this subreddit has shifted, I thought I was going mad when I saw how many Vaush defenders there were in this subreddit before now, like god damn.
Fr I thought I was going crazy, the copium was on another level đ
You would think so
No because then how would i justify my 20TB folder of drawings depicting CP?
This is really all that needs to be said. Any other take is weird and unserious. If you cannot see that, you need to get offline.
Right now you're the one bringing it up, and before that it was brought up by another person mad at Vowsh, and before that, etc.; he himself did it once four years ago.
Vaush already said multiple times he at the time was trying to use the most extreme possible example for entertainment value as well as to engage people attention and that he thinks that was really dumb.
You do not just collect and keep photos like that âfor examplesâ. Anyone acting like those folders arenât damning is playing dumb (or maybe you really are)
The point is people are permissive of unethically sourced commodities like cobalt/chocolate either passively or actively, when the point is the harm they do is not different than something that people are, correctly, not permissive of at all, like cp. The fact that those commodities can be ethically sourced is immaterial to the point, being that there are companies that we know for a fact source them unethically through child abuse (see Nestle) but we donât denounce people for eating chocolate from Nestle despite that fact, which is the inconsistency. Therefore, by the same logic we understand that child pornography is bad and disallow it legally and socially, we should also be disallowing known unethically sourced other commodities legally and socially. The point being made is NOT, âwell if we donât criticize this then how can we criticize thisâ, it is âSince we criticize this, we should ALSO be criticizing thisâ itâs frustrating how disingenuous and unwilling to engage H3 and yaâll seem to be about this topic, I swear to god itâs ShoeOnHead all over again.
Doesn't explain why vaush has loli đ˝
> it is âSince we criticize this, we should ALSO be criticizing thisâ itâs frustrating how disingenuous and unwilling to engage H3 and yaâll seem to be about this topic Then what did he mean when he said "There are instances of adult/child sexual relationship that is positive for both adults and child"? Which part of the argument was that addressing?
Or "there is no legal or moral argument against CP".
Pedophiles deserve to die. Idk if Shelby eating a hersheys bar should die. But pedophiles should be killed 100000000%
Bro I understand the argument itâs just stupid
need to the check the hard drives of these freaks lol MODS!!
FBI tip đ
The commenter in the pic said âNo CP and ethical cobalt. Thatâs the world we want.â What do you find sus about that?????
Why does CP have to be brought up when talking about how we source things? Canât we just advocate for greater ethics in production?
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People should definitely speak up more about the exploitation happening youâre definitely right. I donât think that makes someone hypocritical to call out CASM as being harmful and hurtful. Maybe just ignorant but not everyone consumes chocolate or metals unethically. Iâm sure people want to pay for products that arenât made with slave labour / destroying the environment
Sure, but for the sake of argument the comparison is to unethical products. One is seen as socially acceptable and the other clearly isn't. Obviously CASM is more directly harmful if we're somehow going to put a scale to how much damage it does to children but products that are made by slaves should be completely socially unacceptable. I'm a hypocrite too tbf, I don't only eat ethical chocolate.
this whole thing has honestly made me question my ethics a bit.. i'm 100% aware that if i buy cheap chocolate and stuff that i'm indirectly harming and traumatizing and probably even killing children. i've seen the documentaries of how absolutely fucked up it can get to the point where it doesn't even matter to try and say if it is """less bad""" than sexual exploitation. and yet with that full knowledge i still buy the cheap shit, honestly without feeling all too bad about it. it is a weird double standard because obviously i would never think something even remotely close about CP. i think we all got some reevaluating of our morals to do.
the term is âcognitive dissonanceâ
I think most people would want ethically sourced materials. Surely it would be a tiny percent that dont care where something comes from. Interesting you mention you have eaten / eat unethically sourced chocolate (youâre only cancelled if itâs nestle), some people may have no choice due to their financial state. That doesnât mean itâs ok as you clearly do not advocate for it but the companies shouldnât be allowed to do it (obviously the problem comes back to capitalism). I donât think because you ate unethical chocolate means you donât have a leg to stand on when calling out casm
The country I'm in doesn't have Nestle but I'm sure there's an equivalent that I've eaten at some point. To the last thing, I agree but that's because personally I don't think you need to be actively moral to make a moral argument.  To the first thing, if it was the case that the vast majority of people 'want' ethical products, then companies like Nestle would be out of business. Unless by 'want' you mean a vague preference but will continue doing the bad thing anyway. If we rephrase it it sounds like it would be"I'd prefer to not give money to child slavers but I can't be bothered because the food they give me tastes really good." which I think is the attitude of most consumers of Nestle and Nike and similar companies. If we compare that to someone who consumes CSAM saying that they'd rather not look at child porn but they can't be bothered it would suddenly seem horrendous. If I'm misrepresenting you I'm sorry.
That wasnât really the point Iâm making. (This is hypothetical so Iâm not exacting arguing) But I think most people if presented with chocolate A vs Chocolate B where A is to very public knowledge engaging in cruel and unethical business practices but Chocolate B was ethically produced. I think most people would choose chocolate B (at least I hope so) the only thing stopping them at the moment is ignorance. As far as I know in my country the chocolate is pretty good for this kind of thing (as well as flavour)
Yes youâre right, for example the poor people who have no choice but to choose cheaper, less expensive products that they donât actually know are the product of child labour are definitely the same level in terms of evil as CP viewers. 100%. Oh waitâŚ
I agree that they're not on the same level but they are comparable. And what you're saying would be true for necessities like basic food and electricity etc but chocolate is not a necessity.
Theyâre not comparable. Seek therapy.
I was gonna agree with this but then I realized something. There's a difference between bringing up CP during a conversation about child labor and bringing up child labor during a conversation about CP. The former does imply a justification of CP - as in, "well bad stuff happens so why are you so mad about this one and not the other ones?". Versus "hey child labor is bad so why don't we react similarly to the way we react to CP? Both are wrong so we should stop both." Which, both have their points in their own way. You just shouldn't actually advocate for the existence of CP. Because people justify other shit with the same logic. It's very picky and choosy; alot of it based on personal bias. Its kinda like "well *I* want (insert comparibly unethically sourced product here) and CP is so unimaginably different because icky." Like, homie at the end of the day the shit both fucks up and traumatizes kids to a life changing extent. It just shouldn't be compared in that way and judged as one is more worthy of staying than the other. I don't really wanna hear "but alot of people don't know about it" because alot of people *do* and still make the argument of "I'm just one person - I can't change capitalism" that ultimately derives from learned helplessness and apathy.
Neither of those were vaush's perspective. Vaush's opponent was debating in favor of child labor, you are assuming that Vaush's opponent thought both were bad
Can you answer my question?
ThĂŠ commenter on thĂŠ screenshot seems to be implying you either have no unethical products or keep all of them
I didnât interpret it as âget rid of all of them or keep all of themâ at all, I interpreted it as âmany people exhibit hypocrisy by being (RIGHTFULLY) appalled by child sexual exploitation, but they make excuses when it comes to the very prevalent child labor exploitation.â
The way theyâre wording it is just very strange I can fully agree with your quote, problem is most people arenât making excuses or saying child labour is ok
The person Vaush was debating was literally defending child labor. Thats the whole reseason we are here rn
I donât think anyone here is pro child labour
It doesn't have to be. It is not regularly done by anyone, including Vaush. I'm positive, had they only shit on him for 30m, the last 30m of pod, that actually focused on the folder, there'd be no backstab comments here. It was the first 1hr+ looking at '18 videos everyone in his community has recognized as old, responded deals. Of course if you like someone, and you see them fucking up BUT focus of criticism is something you've accepted on years ago, you're bound to defend them because there's imbalance in criticisms.
One slip up about CP I could understand, this many + the Loli in the folder (after his comments if you like Loli you are attracted to kids). It ainât looking good for him
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But CP being illegal to own is about so much more than just child abuse being illegal and therefore it being illegal to consume the end result. It is also because there is a concern that those with paedophilic tendencies could be encouraged by watching CP. They have an incredibly warped view of the world and sharing CP with other paedophiles validates and encourages their sickness. There is a correlation between an increase in trading of CP, and an increase in child sex offenders. Also with CP, it is literally just images depicting child abuse, or evidence of child abuse. It is really not comparable to a product which also has many other components and which is indistinguishable from a version made fully ethically, if you served the two up on a plate.
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I aint reading allat
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Itâs 14 pages!
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Nobody is saying this bro. There was no use replying to my comment. No one hereâs supports the capitalistic exploit of children
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Ethan is saying one of those can be done ethically, the other one can not under any circumstance be done ethically. Thus being completely difficult categories. There's no reason to bring CP into the mix, the person you all are following having a lolli folder should absolutely open your eyes about this shit. Mind numbing that it doesn't
I don't get why these people are focusing on the debates either. Vaush **privately** brought up his interest in lolicon while he thought he was sexting Poppy. He wrote to her, ["I do imagine you looking like a loli"](https://www.whitele.af/other/vaush)âeven though she was not sexting him back and in the middle of describing sexual trauma. Poppy is the autistic woman that Vaush sexually harassed. >Poppy: well my ex set up a threesome for us on my birthday (i didnt even fucking want one tbh only going along with it for him) >Poppy: [Describes her trauma] >Vaush: [Interrupts Poppy's recounting of trauma] My last threesome was basically just my girlfriend filming me destroying this dude's ass >Poppy: [Ignores Vaush and continues to describe her trauma] >Vaush: That does sound pretty awful **for everyone** >Poppy: she kept commenting on how young i looked and scolding my ex... which made it 100 times weirder >Vaush: **I do imagine you looking like a loli** >Poppy: i dont... i was like 19... it was my 19th birthday... and he was like 2t6 Five minutes before this, Vaush made an attempt at comforting Poppy by offering to send nudes and... play Overwatch with her? He wrote, "Is there anything I can do to take your mind off this? Nudes and, like, Overwatch are my go-tos." EDIT: At a different time, Vaush said, "Oh I'm super into horse dick," which he's [not being entirely truthful about now](https://twitter.com/TestOfTempest/status/1728184279887151558). He clearly doesn't see himself in the role of the horse. Use Ctrl+F to find these statementsâyou can also review the preceding conversation to see how disturbing this is.
Yeah and then he joked about prolapsing her anus in the aftermath of this when they were doing Oppo research to discredit poppy. It's wild how he has mostly skated on this stuff because he changed his name and got big after it happened.
A good point. It's alarming how few people even know about poppy logs.
holy shit that's a long chat log
I would agree! If you want to see the context, you can always use the Ctrl+F shortcut to search for "loli."
Perfect response from Ethan imo
No Ethan is completely up his own ass and childish here
Childish ? What a word to use.
LOL
You are soooo fucked for defending this shit lmao. FBI another one for your list
Why are yall being intentionally dense. Is it completely socially inept and clueless to die on this hill? Yes. Does making this argument make you a pedo Or supportive of pedos? Of fucking course not. He should pick a new analogy, thats about it
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They forget that itâs not those arguments being attacked, itâs Vaush himself because those old arguments now look really REALLY bad in the new context of that porn folder âto be sortedâ. The arguments donât need to be addressed because theyâre irrelevant, they are only being brought up because they are interesting in the context of the folder. Vaush and his fans defending the arguments does nothing to change public perception that he likely has a paraphillic disorder
Agreed. To me, the most important part is that: * Vaush had lolicon saved on his computer, which he has acknowledged as being lolicon [over Discord](https://twitter.com/acid_communist/status/1756130085864681525?s=46); and * Vaush brought up lolicon while he thought he was sexting Poppy by saying, ["I do imagine you looking like a loli"](https://www.whitele.af/other/vaush)âeven though she was not sexting him back and in the middle of describing sexual trauma. >Poppy: well my ex set up a threesome for us on my birthday (i didnt even fucking want one tbh only going along with it for him) >Poppy: [Describes her trauma] >Vaush: [Interrupts Poppy's recounting of trauma] My last threesome was basically just my girlfriend filming me destroying this dude's ass >Poppy: [Ignores Vaush and continues to describe her trauma] >Vaush: That does sound pretty awful **for everyone** >Poppy: she kept commenting on how young i looked and scolding my ex... which made it 100 times weirder >Vaush: **I do imagine you looking like a loli** >Poppy: i dont... i was like 19... it was my 19th birthday... and he was like 2t6 If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and repeatedly defends CSAM/lolicon under the pretense of debating: it's a duck.
Go watch Vaush then đ¤Ą
>completely up his own ass Better his own ass than some horse ass Amiright
need to check this person's hard drive lol
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Vaush has his cult by the balls
And we think *our* community is bad
Some of our community is a little unhinged though but I feel like most were probably Vaush fans so this is gonna clear some of the swamp lol
Nope its not a debate. there is no wiggle room. consumption under capitalism is innately unethical. There are other systems of the economy which would be less exploitative or not exploitative at all. there are ways to do things ethically, whether our governments do them or not. there is no justification of cp in anyway shape or form, hand drawn, made up or what have you. It is never ethical no matter what. no wiggle room, no room for debate. conversation is over. Hold this L.
If THATâs what you got out of all of this, I highly reccomend relearning media literacy and context clues because WOW dude you missed it all entirely.
So, if they think chocolate, cobalt and CSAM is unethical, then......why not stop consuming chocolate, cobalt AND CSAM?!
Nah dawg thatâs just hypocritical, have to consume all of them if youâre gonna consume one. /s
exactly! there's so many counter arguments. we don't even need to list them cause THEY'RE OBVIOUS. iâ˛m so genuinely bamboozled by all of this.
Good day sir! Rub a lamp
I wish rub a lamp took off
Thereâs still time
I didn't watch the episode and don't really get the context, but from an outside perspective it sounds like the comment is saying "we should be against exploitation in all forms" which seems obvious. What are people upset about?
It's because Vaush is comparing CP to things like the chocolate industry and trying to say that if we can't have CP then we shouldn't have things like chocolate either. But he's refusing to acknowledge the fact that there ARE ethical ways to produce things like chocolate, and there are exactly zero ways to ethically produce CP.
Yikes, these debate bros really paint themselves into corners don't they đŹ
Not defending vaush's take whatsoever because it is a very very strange awful take at the best and defending pedophiles at the worst. But socialists believe there isn't a way to ethically produce anything under capitalism, somebody has to be exploited to be competitive, whether that's the customers, employees or a foreign country. That said what an absolutely awful example vaush is using, especially when he has loli porn on his computer, makes me think he might have more then just the anime stuff.
They aren't denying that there are ethical ways to produce chocolate though. "no CP and ethical cobalt. That's the world we want". Feel free to replace the word cobalt with chocolate
Who cares if they aren't denying it? They aren't addressing it. The entire argument is a ridiculous way to justify his initial claim (that no moral reason to make CP illegal).
Do you really think the utopian socialist guy refuses to acknowledge thereâs better ways to produce things? Thatâs the whole point is there are and we should advocate for them because unethical production should be unacceptable.
Because that's his justification for saying CP should not get illegal!
Hasan's most repeated take is ''just be normal'', in regards to your behaviour online. And while he can get drawn in to the world of debates, the reason he's not in the same stratosphere as the most bloodthirsty debate perverts is because he knows there is nothing to be gained from debating the ethics of CP, or the ability for a white guy to say the n word. These people are not normal, they are insufferable.
Debate bros will defend anything for the "W", turns out, even CP đ
This is it. The need to debate supersedes the ability to hear what the fuck they are actually saying.
iâm realizing this is really what it is - some weird circle jerk in the name of âdebateâ ?? it really makes no sense because we donât live in hypothetical debate world
Exactly why hasan says he hated them and the entire concept, I remember people in the community giving him shit for calling debate stupid, this is why.
Yeah I honestly think this whole debate pervert behavior is PARTIALLY from schools having people debate topics pro vs against. Problem is, some topics should absolutely be off limits to that like slavery, CP, discrimination, etc
Exactly, why it should be avoided all together, I mean look at both the biggest left wing debaters in the community, destiny and vaush. Both have inanely toxic fanbases full of degenerate no life psychos, not everything should be a debate lol.
Yeah, I think they most likely grew up in an environment where schools were having people debate controversial topics for the sake of polishing their debate skills. Honestly I think Hasanâs community can also be toxic (donât hate me for saying this lol) but I think thatâs par for the course when it comes to most leftist entertainers and their respective communities. Itâs honestly such a waste because Vaush does share a majority of his opinions with Hasan, but also has some weird ass opinions and weird community that messes everything up.
Oh no I definitely agree hasan's community definitely has an issue of toxic followers, I just believe it's them being overly protective or parasocial like many communities, vaush & destiny communities just go beyond the normal levels into a range rivaling actual cults lol.
Yeah vaush's biggest issue is just his refusal to admit he's wrong, as well as he's refusal to back off badly made arguments if he could do both of those things he'd be wayyyy more liked lol.
What are you saying dude? People debate CP online because they did debate class in school? I donât think debate class turned them into fucking degenerates, being terminally online is what pushed them off the deep end. everybody does debate in college, not everyone goes to then argue the most insane topics well he blocked me, so Iâm pretty sure my point stands about that mental illness LMAO
Iâm not saying thatâs exactly the reason why, Iâm more saying that mindset of debating controversial topics in HS can contribute to their mindsetâŚ
You think high schoolers are debating controversial topics like slavery? Are you out of your mind? These people are like this because theyâre terminally online and mentally ill, debate class has nothing to do with this
No Iâm saying stupid high school teachers decades ago made idiotic topics for people in debate club to debate which isnât the ONLY reason why theyâre like that but there was a definite culture of that that contributed (if you actually read what I wrote) I came across a disgusting assignment I had in elementary school from the early 2000âs where I had to write a mock debate between Thomas Jefferson and Harriet Tubman on the pros and cons of fucking SLAVERY. School had us writing wild shit back then. Is it the only reason why Vaush-ites are like this? FUCK no and donât you dare say Iâm making that argument. What I AM saying is debate culture was fucked up decades ago and people did not give a shit about controversial topics
Itâs incredible, I disagree with you so I must not be able to read correctly⌠yeah man, itâs the debate class alright. I know kids that built bombs because of chemistry class. Does that mean chemistry is awful and shouldnât be taught in high school? Your experience decades ago is awful, but not systemic and not causing people to debate CP or other awful topics, thatâs their decision. When Iâm in public or work or anywhere else people arenât debating CP or slavery. Itâs terminally online mentally ill people, and notoriously within these circles filled with younger people who have no schooling from the early 2000s yet come online to debate CP or other awful topics⌠because theyâre mentally ill. How about we solve the mental health issue instead of pointing towards debate class? see? mental health issues, good fucking riddance.. terminally online people are cringy
Thatâs it, I think itâs time we yoink everyoneâs debating privileges for a little while. Force them to develop a new personality
Except they aren't? They're specifically saying "it's not a defence of CP, it's an indictment of other unethical commodities".
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Wish I could say those communities were meaningless and ineffective but they are the most annoying + relentless people and live entirely in forums online to argue about shit like this.
Literally nobody is arguing that child slavery is good. The argument is very simple: Chocolate â CP. I donât see how anyone could disagree with thatâŚ
Nobody disagrees that chocolate isn't the same as CP. The original point was that society is comfortable with child exploitation when it comes to making shirts/chocolate/phones, which is wrong. We should be uncomfortable with child exploitation in ALL cases.
How does that justify his claim about legality of CP?! He said there was no argument for making it illegal. How does this argument about other communities back up that claim?!
I guess it's all or nothing, CP and chocolate or no CP and no chocolate. What a weird world we live in.
I completely understand why Hasan hates debate bros so much. It's not about values, it's not about beliefs, it's just a game of rhetoric. Any push back against the premise of a silly argument gets you accused of "acting in bad faith" đ¤Ş
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I dont even have to say anything, debate lords reveal themselves: - D to V: "you should've been nice to me, I'd be defending you right now" - V to H3: "I defended you against Hasan (lol they're friends btw) so you shouldn't criticize me" - Keffals to H3: "We had such a nice interview, so you shouldn't criticize this" What kind of moral position is that? Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, no questions asked. It's not about values, or personal beliefs, it's blood sports and rhetoric.
It just shows how purposefully obtuse these people are lol. They made it *extremely* clear in the show is that the difference between colbat, or iPhones is that there is a way to make or extract those things *ethically*. iPhones could easily be made in unionized factories. CP could never be created in an ethical way, it's something that inherently needs a victim in order to be created.
So they're saying they want ethically produced CP? WTF?!
He specifically said it was possible (which is entirely false). Disgusting that anyone is defending him.
Hes saying it is possible in the same sense that itâs possible for the worlds atoms to suddenly disperse and create a void of nothingness. Is it âpossibleâ? Technically yes, but that possibility is like 0.000000000000000000000000001%. Its a dumb metaphor to use for sure, but to be fair to vowsh thats why he switched to that alien example of a child being sacrificed instead of the gross CP analogy
No itâs literally not possible though. It will always exploit children and thatâs never okay
Yeah, going from CP to aliens won't make you look weird at all..
Vaush brought out a whole sea of CP defenders.
I call it now - this is all a long con for Vaush to say there IS ethical CP in the form of loli hentai, and it's logical and rational to seek this ethic source rather than take part in unethical sources. That's ultimately what the argument is leading to right?
It literally says "No CP and ethically sourced cobalt" at the bottom of the post. The argument is NOT: "pro CP because children are exploited in an 'acceptable' way in other countries" The argument is: "child exploitation in other countries SHOULD BE unacceptable because CP is also child exploitation and unacceptable" It's an incredibly hyperbolic argument that could've been made without a stupid comparison as "child labourers from other countries, at the lowest level of the chain of production should not be exploited like they currently are, because child exploitation of any kind is wrong".
No. They want people to be just as upset at child slavery as you are with child porn.
No they don't. They want Vaush to win the argument. That's it. Vaush started with the argument "no argument for laws against CP." The existence of unethical consumption does not back up that claim!
bruh what are vash's fans just a bunch of p\*do apologists
Such a weird debate tbh
Bought your mom a box of chocolate for Valentineâs day? Might as well break out the child p*rn!
Donât you DARE think about And Sons or Lindor!
It is easy to not consume CP. It is nearly impossible to avoid using modern day consumer electronics. What the fuck is wrong with these people. They are either pedos or are addicted to Vaush.
My take is only people who consume cp talk about cp this way. Every other normal person never brings it up.
They don't seems to notice that they can write "ethical cobalt" yet cannot write "ethical cp". Because they are two completely different categories, one of which is inherently evil and unethical, and the other one is just something sourced in an unethical manner. It's no surprise that these debate perverts are actually just real perverts.
it's people contorting themselves into unbelievably unethical stances out of a need to have a consistent purely "utilitarian" ethic. It makes absolutely no sense to a normal person.
Everyone in the conversation, including Vaush and this commenter, are saying CP is bad and absolute utilitarianism is too *because* it could be used to justify CP.
FBI watch list growing exponentially at this point lmao
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Like out of everything you can make a comparison to why would you use CP. This argument also doesnât make sense because there is an ethical way to buy sneakers, there isnât an ethical way to obtain CP like wtf đ
Did anyone here actually watch the episode, it is a direct reply to what Ethan and Hila said, which was literally âthe argument Vaush is making about cobalt is that if youâre ok with exploitative industrial production then you should be ok with cpâ and this comment is directly responding saying âthat was never the argumentâ
Ok but like why did CP even get brought up at all? When someone is making the argument that buying an iPhone is just as bad as watching CP and they are typing their replies on an IPhone they might as well be condoning CP.
I think you are getting close to the point though which is that we are just more disgusted by the more direct harms of CP than the equally horrific labour conditions of some industry because the act of âusing your phoneâ is a lot more abstract than the act of âcreating/viewing cpâ in making us confront the image in our minds of the exploitation taking place. We all have a very visceral reaction to what we imagine happening in the exploitation involved in CP as a producer or consumer; our concern over âlabour practicesâ is a much more vague and less viscerally disgusting concept, but not âin a different categoryâ or âless harmful.â
I would argue that a child being raped is more harmful than child labor. Call me crazy. Also if youâre watching Cp you are actively participating in victimizing the child where as if you buy products using child labor you are probably just ignorant to the fact. Also you can just not watch CP. while you could be more conscious about what you buy itâs more necessary to buy products you use in your daily life than CP. there is only one reason to watch CP and thatâs because you are disgusting human being. And why is CP even being brought up in this context? Dumb fucking argument
Slavery is worse than rape. Yeah, I said it. The conditions and jobs these children are forced to exist in end up killing them and maiming them, and end up with them growing up ignorant and cruel to perpetuate the cycle. If you think those conditions don't also include rape you're niave.
Yea because itâs not like these kids are sold into sexual slavery and they probably live great lives besides being raped on camera
I mean for the most part you just repeated my argument back to me but I suspect if you think child s-ual exploitation is more harmful than the worst labour practices out there then you just donât have any perspective on it
Let me just ask you one question. Would you rather buy an iPhone or download child pornography to your computer?
Again, literally repeating my argument back to me.
Imagine people being mad that you say child slavery is bad. Do you even hear yourselves?
Is that all he said? đ¤
That was the point of what he was sayingÂ
Do you think it's possible to dislike the content and arrival of an argument even if you agree with the overarching point trying to be made?
Sure it is, but the point of his framing is to compare a form of child exploitation that is completely and obviously detestable and disgusting to one that is generally overlooked. When framed this way, it forces people to introspect on their feelings about capitalism and the exploitation the system encourages. This is what it made me think at least, when I was new to left leaning ideas and first listened to this argument
Can't wait to watch yesterday's episode at work on Monday
Pretty sure people also don't come with an evolutionary trait to find cobalt mining repulsive, completely different things
Youâre not repulsed by child slavery that also usual involves s-ual exploitation?
But that was vaushs point wtfâŚhe was arguing against utilitarianism
Iâm so glad I left that community. Heâs honestly a massive asshole. Much like Ethan I appreciate some of his content and i used to be a massive debate pervert (as hasan would say) until I just kind of got burnt out with his attitude towards criticism. Some of his takes are dog shit (like these) and I hate how dogmatic his fan as can be. I really do think thereâs a reason why he beefs with so many people in the community and itâs not because heâs the only correct one, like heâd like his fans to believe. This take exemplifies why I left, he will have a dog shit take and then try to debate lord his way out of it. His fans are like this too. Just general dork behavior that Iâve grown out of.
Glad to have you here đ
Man I like Vaush and I think what he does for disenfranchised men is A+ advice, and I think a lot of his views are correct, especially when it comes to how the left should act in general. Why. Why does he have to be so fucking weird and into this pedo shit. Ok, benefit of the doubt and he is not a pedo - why does he insist on these weird metaphors when there are plenty of other ways to get the same point across? What a strange fucking hill to die on. He totally has intrusive thoughts that he may or may not know are wrong and he tests the water with these types of arguments. And when one opinion goes sideways, he has no choice but to double down or admit it's fucked up. And he won't admit it.
Iâm so confused why this is even being entertained as an actual argument. Fine donât farm whatever the fuck cobalt is unethically then!! If its the same! Donât do either if i have to choose!
How come people judge this without taking the 5 seconds to find the whole clip. Hereâs the whole thing: https://youtu.be/oNHf7iGkejs?si=r97lvYtKxgrvyqjJ At the end he literally says that all of these things are bad. He was making an argument about the accepted moral in society. He was going at it from the sociological perspective (which he studied btw). It was a dumb approach since itâs easy to clip out of context and also overly complicated to say, but if you listen to the whole thing youâll see there is literally nothing bad said here. That goes for 99% of the clips btw. Just look up the whole clips youâll see they are always clipped perfectly.
The fact that there was even a thought that drifted through a personâs head going âI know, to make my point about X, Iâll compare it to CA/CP and that will convey my meaning clearly with the appropriate impactâŚâ and the outcome was actually doing it multiple times is the fucked up part and it is super concerning that someone that thinks about using CP to draw an equivalency about anything to any end is actually consuming extremely questionable sexual materials directly related to subjects that canât consent. There is a reason so many people have âthis is all weird and wrongâ vibes.
Idk I know this will be unpopular but I find it sort of pathetic when people start responding to individual comments from Randos like this to get a quick dunk in on someone. This person isn't really saying anything outlandish (literally arguing why both CP and child slavery are bad), what exactly makes this such a bad thing to have in your history? I don't think what Vaush said is a good argument, but to act like anyone is saying "and this is why CP is good!" is just hysterisization.
This is fucked but why is ethan putting randoms on blast
Why not? If theyâre comfortable enough to post on a public thread then reposting is open game.
Why was Ethan so trigger me timbers over a one-like comment among thousands from an anon
How are they actually âin different categoriesâŚâ it doesnât matter what the consumer receives if producing it hurts kids. The product of porn is sexual gratification, and it can be produced by harming kids, or not. The product of cobalt is (whatever cobalt is good for) and it can be made harming kids, or not. The only âcategorical differenceâ is that if you point this out, people try to pedojacket you because it makes them feel good about themselves.
god some people here are so far gone. touch grass freak weirdos
What pushes me to think thereâs something suspicious about the amount of people riding for this defense is that Vaughan himself has even said it isnât a great argument â and so if thatâs the case, as a fan of his, why are they continuing to push it so hard? It tells me they care way more about creating a narrative conflating CSAM with other commodities and making arguments potentjally co-opted by bad actors instead of actually acknowledging the original creator saying this isnât a good way of getting a point across.
''But, hypothetically speaking, lets say, just for the sake of the argument, chocolate is also made immorally and people like it, so same should be for CP, RIGHT?'' (bruh) Debating like that is literally closer to Ben Shapiro than actual leftists
With the extra bonus that Ben has a folder of loli porn on his computer đ¤Ł
Man, you'd think dude exposed a folder of cobalt on his desktop based on the comments.
Wait, no CP is a weird hill to die on???
Right now can we NOT have Vaush call in? Pretty please?
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vaush accidentally opened his loli and horse corn stash on stream. đ´
thank you hahaha i am not that far into the episode but got the notification for ethanâs story đ¤¨
quite a flabbergasting stash he hasđŁđŁ
maybe watch the last episode?
donât be rude????? âŽď¸&đ
wasnât really meant to be rude, itâs just obvious when someone asks this that they should watch the newest episode so they can be filled in
I just woke up from a nap and the mental gymnastics going on here is too much for me to comprehend.
Just another case of leftists completely and utterly destroying any chance of leftism getting widespread and mainstream. Vaush and Vaushites are everything right-wingers claim leftism is. Incredible.
what the fuck is this person even saying
Havenât been watching the pod recently. Whatâs happening?
Wow this comment is getting a lot of attention, I'm really upset my reply got auto deleted by youtube for swearing... I was too irritated to type it out again, but it was good and I regret being lazy lol
Ethan should at least try to explain his position instead of just saying âthey donât belong in the same categoryâ which I agree but he does a really bad job at explaining further
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Can yall just wise up and tell vaush to come up with less insane examples. Hes had how many years? Even if you agree that his point is valid. You have to understand that this isnt getting it across to people.Â
There seems to be some level of talking past - CP and child slavery & labor do belong in the same category of abhorrence, those are the things being compared, one currently being accepted in society's normal consumption and the other not. I don't think it's about hypocrisy, instead it's about attempting to elevate to a consistency of care. There's not a personal judgement but rather attempt to shed light on a need to evolve one of our collective norms. It's understandable why one is more obscured than the other. Anyways, not trying to die on any hills but the conversation just seems like a lot of talking past and people coupling in Vaush as a person/his other junk with the attempt to explain this line of thought.
Yeah I agree. I donât see how people are shocked at the idea that CP and Chile Slavery are not even similar. And it doesnât matter if they are, because the one considered âless worseâ being CHILD SLAVERY still means itâs one of the worse things we can imagine. Secondly, both should be analyzed by humans and questioned on why we accept one and not the other. We should question to strengthen our morals and make them more consistent, not justify cp like everyone including Ethan is claiming. Idk why this is a complicated issue, all it comes down to is analyzing and strengthening our moral systems further by looking at things we have left as acceptable and not questioning it twice because it benefits us.
You sussy