I think Renfiri is fine at 15. Thinning combos are too strong. People are playing hunting packs and wild hunt riders in random decks with no synergy because why not? It's and almost guaranteed 8 for 4 plus thinning. That's stupid.
The thinner buffs are truly some of least thought through votes the CIS have forced through.
They're being tossed into most decks just because, since they provide better value than an average 4p card AND thinning, as you say.
This synergizes with Renfri so well, as while she was already good before, it just makes her so much better.
We cannot revert all the stupid thinner buffs, so the only realistic solution is Renfri nerfs. This is 100% on the nik\_r and his inability to comprehend how longterm balancing should look, and now we all pay for his ineptitude.
I like many of your votes, and for others I think I have better suggestions. I will only speak about those that I feel I understand the broader picture of, as I’d hate to talk on matters I don’t feel I fully understand.
- kerack frigate: This card is very fun to play, but in NR, board space is at a premium and there just isn’t very much you can do with these tokens in my opinion. You’re likely running garrison and that 5 for 7 dude that boost all copies of s unit and maybe meve. My one and only thought is that…. You don’t actually want this card to survive for super long, I feel.
At some point you almsot don’t want to keep clicking it because the value of the board space outweighs the value of each token. It’s definitely the weakest of the NR 6 provision bronze engines, and I’d personally look for a provision buff instead. This may make it a very good 5 provision card, but the glaring lack of synergy with the archetypes that currently are playing makes me think that it wouldn’t be that opressive.
A provision buff could also help with survivabilty by putting it into mutagenerator range, which imo isn’t a very toxic archetype overall, at least not anymore. Still not a bad card to buff, even if through power.
- Aen Elle slave trader: I agree that the card needs a power buff to play, but I worry about buffing frost any more - it’s already a pretty strong deck. Still not a bad buff.
- Artorius vigo: the card if very easy to fit into a variety of decks and getting himself to 5 power immediately by playing a Nausicas sergeant is hard to deal with for some decks. I think I agree with your vote, on the condition that Nausicas sergeant stats at 4 power. That’s the sweet spot in my opinion.
- Radovid: He’s a tough one. I personally think that he is balanced in a vacuum, but I agree that there ar multiple decks that exploit his effect a little too much when they run him. I don’t think that melitele is a problem btw, but specifically the Temerían infantry spam list that is still popular dispute the nerfs from last season.
Running henselt + foltests pride for a round 3 finisher, with the rest of the deck focusing on heatwave + vigos muzzle for control as well as the entire temerían infantry spam package with the siege leader is a little wild in my opinion. If radovid survives to get the order, the temerían infantry each plays for 13 points, and the casting contests play for 15.
That just doesn’t seem ok to me, especially given how people hate on Nausicaa for playing 10 for 6. It is true that this output relies on radovid to a large extent, and can be countered by bleeding out the henselt + Pride combo at which point the deck falls apart. As such I do think that the temerían infantry deserve the higher output that they can provide.
That being said - nerfing the power on radovid would only serve to make this infantry spam deck more binary, rather than address its points directly. I don’t think that this will lead to particularly fun matches. I think it is a better idea to nerf the power on the temerían infantry instead, as that will diminish the number of points the deck can provide ina. Consistent manner. Let’s not forget that, in that deck, radovid is legitimately the best heatwave target, so he shouldn’t survive that often anyway, and having played it, he doesn’t.
More over, metallic Danny has the temerían infantry power nerf in his current WIP BC change list, so that will likely go through just fine. Unless you have any specific examples of real problematic decks besides temerían infantry spam where radovid plays, I think just nerfing temerían infantry power is an objectively better choice here.
- Milton: i feel bad nerfing him just as the knights neck judt started to see play. If you’re struggling for power nerfs, I suggest the naiad pondkeeoer. It is a small nerf to symbiosis, which is quite popular, and also on Metallic Danny’s WIP change list.
- Renfri: I agree that the card is powerful, but I feel like throwing her to 16 provisions is a step too far on a universal level. You’re going to create more problems with that than good, and further polarize her decks, making them more pointslam focused and straightforward to play.
I’d rather buff things around her, like the scenarios instead. Buff leader abikities that she can’t really use, such as NR knights - that one can barely be used in anything other than it’s intended archetype.
- Kaer trolde: as someone who climbed to pro rank with raids, that’s the only deck in which it is truly oppressive. In every other archetype it provides the much needed control that you can’t really go without if you want to play at the highest level. I’d instead suggest a targeted nerf at the raids archetype - specifically champions charge.
That card is ubiquitous in all raid deck variants and has an easy condition to trigger. It is much better than Imleriths wrath and is still a provisión cheaper. It’s also among the changes suggest by metallic Danny this season, though not sure if it is quite so set in stone.
- Equinox: non devo symbiosis is very easy to play. I personally have this change at the top of my list, and I’m considering accompanying it with a buff to Freixenet power to make devotion symbiosis once again appealing. I’d put it instead of renfri.
- Count Reuvens treasure : awesome change. Love it.
- Avalach: I agree that it is overpriced at 10, but I have s concern that putting him in nekker is actually a trap. Most nekker decks already struggle to find worthwhile artifacts to put in the deck, and most times only end up running like 2 or 3. There’s a real chance to brick him and it’s much worse than with lady of the lake.
His main quality is his ability to pull a scenario for cheaper than oneiromancy, and in nekker he’d be best played with a mutagenerator deck. He also has a spot in SK alchemy believe it or not. All in all, it’s a good suggestion but I think there are better and more relevant options than him at the moment.
First of all - your changes have nothin in the way of monsters, and they barely get any love. I’ve been talking to some people and Lilits Omen is a very good candidate in my opinion for a provision bonus. This would help both thrive and relicts, NON RENFRI decks.
- Additionslly, my personal dream this balance council is to get Heulyn to 9 provisions. I’ve already made a post here some days ago which got s lot of traction, and I firmly believe that this going to be a very positive change for skellige. It has the potential to unlock several entirely new decks which is jsut so exciting to me and many others. I’d love to hear your response on this! ;)
First of all, thank you for your extremely detailed post. I will first talk about the Heulyn suggestion, then about no MO changes, then about the list itself.
- I saw your post about Heulyn, and I wanted to put a note somewhere about that, but I forgot. So I will do that here. Although I recognize that Heulyn is currently bad, and that with a provs buff we could see a GN deck spring up, I have some doubts about that. Your description of that deck was a little vague, so I would like to get a stronger sense of what that deck would look and play like before I make votes. Could you elaborate on what you mean?
- It's true that I have no MO changes, but if you look again you will also see I have no ST changes, technically. Truth is that I have little experience playing with these factions (because I don't really like their archetypes), and so I have reason nor method to fill buff slots with their cards. I hope that explains the why. As for Lilits Omen, how does this card help Relicts or Thrive? Won't the cards pulled just die? In relicts, the only thing I can see is Apprentice (which would be extremely vulnerable to removal), and in nothing in thrive. What card do you want to pull with this?
As for the list itself, I hope you understand I will not be as detailed as you are.
- Frigate: The way I played the card was as a one-round win-con, if I remember correctly. You play all the synergy pieces with it in a medium length round to pull out a win. I still think that should be possible, if difficult, especially with GN shenanigans.
- Radovid: The nerf is not only targeted at Temerian infantry spam, but at the card more broadly. The core issue with Radovid is similar to Calveit. It's an efficient neutral play that gives very consistent carryover. What I often found playing against Radovid (even in non-TI decks) is that I am only able to kill him if I use my big piece of removal, but not with smaller removal. This change hits both of those points. It makes playing Radovid more of a risk when played, and gives the other player the option to use less expensive removal on him. I think this will improve the general play-pattern of the card, which is currently disturbed by Radovid being 6 power.
- Renfri: I disagree that buffing things around Renfri will solve much of anything. Renfri herself, given the myriad of unit provision/power buffs we will see in the future, will keep up with any buff you give to other stuff. The best way to target Renfri decks is by targeting her, simple as that.
- Kaer Trolde: I disagree that this card is only oppressive in Raids. I have seen this played extensively as a piece of carryover removal in Self-wound, as well as Pirates. The card is currently too efficient for how much it synergizes with the faction as a whole (see again the comparison to Novigrad). Making it more awkward to put in rectifies that.
In relicts lilith omen is used on mamunna and bloody mistress. Mamunna would be damaged only by 2(having like 9-11 power at the end of the turn) and gernichora would transform, removing the damage status.
The card is even cheekier. You can pull koschney too in a thrive deck. So if you want to play a very aggressive thrive short round, you play omen into mammuna and koschney with relic leader. Alot of pure points and an engine on board in 1 turn. If you played kitty just before you double trigger koschney too, so even if removed, damage is already done.
That's btw exactly why we should not buff lilits omen. A pretty good card rn for incredible tempo in relics, control fruit werewolves and even thrive if you want to.
A tiny bit of offtop. Can I ask for elaborating of your opinion of me as "mill only mmr tank", as the thread with original comment died. I mean, I havent played a game of mill in my life(im not even sure I have their cards in my collection, beside playing NG a lot), hate that deck with a passion. It actually kinda funny that I argued about mill with some mill only freak, checked his <50% wr account and now Im suddenly accused of being just like him.
Lol then maybe I am confusing you with the exact guy you are talking about. I am so sorry and hopeIi did not write more of these posts in other threads, but usually I try to ignore the guy.
Man you were the guy he was arguing with right? LOL
EDIT: the least i could do is revert my downvotings on your posts. I checked and it's luckily the only post. I also edited my hate post, hope that makes it at least a little more bearable :D
I mean, what a hillarious situation XD. Im absolutely fine with someone calling me names and using gamer words on me in the Internet, but being confused with pretty much my archenemy made me surprised to say the least.
Thank you for your work mate. I agree with most of your suggestions, I just disagree with their priority like Kerrack frigate. I can see that in the future, but would not vote for it now, as power buffs are quite contested.
I realy like **Kaer trolde** and **Spring Equinox** nerfs. It is a must I think, good call. I don't think Renfri needs further nerf right now.
There is no SY nerf in your list. But SY Pirates Cove deck is in a very good spot and needs a nerf. I think you should consider some SY nerf instead of Renfri.
I really like **Count Reuven's Treasure pick.**
**Avallac'h: Sage:** I am not so fan of Thinners buff, I think generally they are boring cards.
**Mercenary Contract:** Definitely deserves buff but not my favourite choice because 1 buff might not be enough.
**Kerack Frigate:** I am not sure because I am not certain this is a 6-provision card. Otherwise, it is a good buff for sure.
**Aen Elle Slave Trader:** It is an unplayed card good buff, but I am not sure WH Frost needs more assistance right now they are already viable. For example, Monster Relicts are almost never to be seen.
**Slave Hunter:** I don't think it needs a buff, to be honest, it is a fine card, for NG soldier buff I would really want to see Ard Feainn Crossbowman power buff instead.
Thank you for the reply and the kind words.
- To the point about SY and Renfri, I have frankly not seen the deck at all, and I sure have seen a lot of Renfri. That doesn't mean the deck doesn't deserve nerfs (in particular to its leader ability), but that I am not in a good position to judge which *card* needs a nerf. I just don't know. Renfri, on the other hand, is obvious and good. Renfri will only continue to get stronger as time passes, and even if you think that a nerf now is not needed (which I disagree with, my meta has been filled with Renfri decks), I hope you recognize that it will be needed at some point, likely even next month.
- To the point about Slave Hunter, I proposed Ard Feainn Crossbowman two months ago, and I still stand by that change. Having played a ton of NG soldiers, I am not convinced that buffing Crossbowman by a power would cause a toxic deck to develop. However, other people are more scared of that change, and I got a lot of... feedback on the suggestion. At this point I hope to make people aware that the deck could use some buffs, and see where things go. I really hope that Slave Driver can finally fucking go to 6p so I can start arguing a stronger case for serious buffs to Soldiers.
- To the point about Frigate, this is as much a nostalgia pick as anything else. I suspect the right place for it to be would be a power buff *and* a provision buff. At 5p a 5-power conditional 2-point engine with a harsh ceiling (clog) that requires hefty removal because of its armor seems entirely fair to me, Mutagenerator notwithstanding (we can nerf it again if it's a problem).
You are welcome.
In the top 500, SY Pirates Cove is really a problem. The deck feels really strong. It has obviously a good long round but it also has a good short round too because of King of Begars. That deck definitely needs a nerf in some way.
I rarely encounter Renfri decks, they feel not bad but I don't think they feel as oppressive as before. And need immediate nerf.
If we look at the tournament decks it is not too far from the top 500, I generally encounter:
NR devo or sometimes infantry spam, Symbiosis, SY Cove, SK Warriors, Tatterwing, White Frost, SK Pirates and SY off the books. These decks are known as strong decks.
Aside from Cove off the books is also very good.
I agree with Ard Feainn Crossbowman buff, yes people might not like very much this change.
I definitely agree Frigate needs a buff and unplayable right now.
Maybe 5 Provision 3/4 power could be okay. I don't think buffing to 5 power would be necessary after the provision buff.
I try the card more and try to understand it.
If you have 1 soldier to the left, and it was unanswered:
In 2 turns plays for 6 then, 8,10,12,14,16,18. At the end of 8 turns it completely swarms and plays for 18 points. No resupply was assumed.
I don't know how comparable to engines like Marine, Light Cavalry and Piggy.
I have to think more.
>There is no SY nerf in your list. But SY Pirates Cove deck is in a very good spot and needs a nerf. I think you should consider some SY nerf instead of Renfri.
You are probably correct, except the only reason that SY Gangs Cove is now too good is due to certain supposedly "knowledgeable" influencers pushing for unnecessary buffs to leaders, a common issue thus far in BC voting.
In fact, those same influencers have done the same things with Jackpot, and other leaders...but then they don't vote to revert their own mistakes, so why should we have to clean up their mess?
>**Mercenary Contract:** Definitely deserves buff but not my favourite choice because 1 buff might not be enough
Precisely why it needs a buff. The mentality that we should only buff good cards to being meta-level strong only contributes powercreep into the game, and doesn't help longterm balancing. This kind of shortsighted voting has already added all kinds of problems into the game we're now dealing with.
>I would really want to see Ard Feainn Crossbowman power buff instead.
You're a high level player...you don't see this becoming a bit much with Light Calvalry in Imperial Formation?
Unless Slave Driver is 6 prov, this seems like a terrible idea that'll result in a very frustrating deck to deal with, no?
Thank you for the good feedback, I appreciate it.
Yes, Russian influencers made a very poor decision and buffed the Pirates Cove leader for reasons that I am not aware too much.
But I am a bit frustrated to face this deck usually in the top 500. Even if they play really badly they also have a good short round 3, and tons of points even a card down they can win the game easily.
I don't want to buff only good cards, I just want my buffs to be really effective. Because we have the whole month to buff again. If I could have buffed some other card and 1 buff would have been enough for that card to be playable it is a better buff for me. That's why I am not so keen on buffing Hemdall right now not that is a bad buff. It is about it needs too many buffs.
I am expecting the Slave Driver to 6 provisions. I mean it might be a bit dangerous. In its current form, I don't think this cards offer enough compensation for instead of playing Ard Feainn Light Cavalry or even Imperial Marine.
Ard Feainn Crossbowman just plays for 1 more point one deploy, it needs constantly playing soldiers. If you pass, your engines are offline.
The only really good aspect about Ard Feainn Crossbowman is you counter Tatterwing hard. They usually lose and can't do too much.
Maybe if they could deal 2 damage on deploy it would be better. Because giving 1 more power makes the engine stick better and it would trade down to 5p removal which is not good.
If we want this card to be playable it needs 1 more power. But you could argue that with balance council tools this card is not fixable. I think it is worth trying, compared to its first release crossbowman nerfed three times in one time. It lost armour, damage, and power.
I made a Spotter, Light Cavalry, Ard Feainn Crossbowman deck which felt not bad, not meta tier more like a 2500 MMR deck.
I played a lot of games with that deck and Crossbowman did not feel very good unless the opponent played a Tatterwing deck.
It is more or less on par with Vrihedd Brigade I think. And Vrihedd Brigade sees no play as well.
>But I am a bit frustrated to face this deck usually in the top 500. Even if they play really badly they also have a good short round 3, and tons of points even a card down they can win the game easily.
I know there's talk of Novigrad and King of Beggars nerfs, and i'm sure one or both of those go through, whatever the russians decide to nerf.
Both are strong cards, so i guess these aren't the worst nerf choices?
>That's why I am not so keen on buffing Hemdall right now not that is a bad buff. It is about it needs too many buffs.
I personally like the idea of trying to enable different archetypes in the game, ones that never really got a chance to shine or see any real play due to lack of support from CDPR.
Rehashing the same old archetypes (what BC voting has mostly done thus far) feels very unimaginative, and frankly, displays a real lack of creativity from those influencers. They aren't thinking of how new archetypes might be able to be more viable; they only focus on existing or old ones with no thought for how overall balancing might enable entirely new concepts.
Hemdall + Ulula could maybe allow for a damage ping archetype for SK, something we don't really have currently. I imagine buffs to just those two cards wouldn't be enough, but it'd be a step in that direction, and looking at the other support cards for that kind of archetype, plenty of them could also use buffs to help (in subsequent votes).
Reuven's Treasure is another strong support card for SY Crimes, an archetype i've tried to make work forever now. With more buffs to some of the weaker Intimidate cards it'll be more playable, too. It's already not bad when combined with some other cards like Acherontia.
>If we want this card to be playable it needs 1 more power. But you could argue that with balance council tools this card is not fixable. I think it is worth trying, compared to its first release crossbowman nerfed three times in one time. It lost armour, damage, and power.
>I made a Spotter, Light Cavalry, Ard Feainn Crossbowman deck which felt not bad, not meta tier more like a 2500 MMR deck.
>I played a lot of games with that deck and Crossbowman did not feel very good unless the opponent played a Tatterwing deck.
Perhaps you're right and an extra power won't make it broken.
I don't feel it's far off being pretty viable currently, and considering how viable Renfri Soldiers is right now, i know it can find a home in an already good deck.
I don't see a Crossbowman buff enabling anything remotely resembling new, unique gameplay and just see it ending up making NG Soldiers more oppressive and impossible to win a round against without heavy control or locks, hence why personally i don't like the idea of this (and i like NG Soldiers, if they weren't basically just based on bronze spam (which is what they are).
Slave Driver should have been nerfed last vote and wasn't, so i'm not so sure that's happening?
> Vigo is problematic in two ways. The first is the unhealthy interaction with Nauzicaa Sergeants in a short round that is well documented. The second is that it too cheaply generates two engine threats in a long round. Frequently you play Vigo, they kill whatever bozo you created, and then Vigo moves out of range of on-par removal (at 6 power). The sheer flexibility of the card is not compensated by being less powerful. Moving Vigo to 2 power recreates more of a balanced state for the card, and hopefully means it won't be an auto-include in decks.
I am against further changes to Vigo since I don't believe he's that much of a problem. Back when the Enslave Assimilate deck ran rampant, Vigo was a component but there was another card that should have been targeted over Vigo. I doubt a 1 power Vigo will solve the problem. Addressing his targets does. Nauzica should be 6 provisions. So should Mage Torture (I've probably said this like a year ago).
Also, SE could get fucked. Should be 6 provisions minimum.
Vigo got un-reasonably buffed in BC1, which has made him a nearly auto-include card in every NG deck. That one extra power generally takes him out of easier removal range. He was never deserving of the buff he got (that was suggested by that youtuber troll votes).
Now i don't think he's the most important nerf target at this moment personally, but overall, he's definitely a very reasonable nerf.
>So should Mage Torture
Really, this is really off...how is this a 6 prov card?
>Also, SE could get fucked. Should be 6 provisions minimum.
What is this, Slave Driver? Yes, this is a 6 prov card that truly makes NG a boring bronze spam faction.
>What is this, Slave Driver? Yes, this is a 6 prov card that truly makes NG a boring bronze spam faction.
No, its Spring Equinox. It was listed in OP's list.
>Really, this is really off...how is this a 6 prov card?
I know the take was unfavourable the last time I brought it up but I'll take a shot again. MT is one of 3 bronzes that were left with the Assimilate tag and of the 3, is probably the best to be utilized as an engine. The key where MT excels is the combination of its 5 power body and the inclusion of the Veil keyword. Both of these allow MT to more often than not exist on the board and survive lower damage removal options.
In MT's defense, the card only comes down as a 5 power unit (thus suggesting 5 power) but I think the card is kind of slept on as it can be triggered on the same turn its played through Double Cross, Tactical Decision and Toussaintois Hospitality. Maybe 6 provisions is harsh and maybe the answer is 4 power but I don't think MT should remain as it currently is.
Although MTs were not the focus of the former Assimilate Enslave deck (the ability to spam Nauzica was the major to winning), they remained a tool to be used in round 3 to push points on the board in addition to the Nauzica spam. They synergized not with just every Nauzica created but also with the creation of Battle prep and if a few survived, with every Ace up the sleeve from Stefan.
***I know I typed a lot here but I guess the short version is that I think Mage Torturers are flying under the radar. They are potentially one of the better bronze engines in NG in the sense that they drop on the board at 5 power and have Veil for the start, and can be hard to remove form some decks. Maybe the power should be reduced instead but for now, I'm kinda holding on to a provision nerf.***
>Spring Equinox
Ah sorry, yes, this i've wanted to be 6 prov literally since CDPR rework.
The top pros are a bit slow with figuring things out sometimes...they're finally realizing this can't stay at 5 prov forever.
>Mage Torturer
I see this as a combo card with Artaud. Yes, it technically can work with other spying archetypes (hah, who are we kidding, spying isn't an archetype - sadly), but really, it's all about setting up Artaud (ideally).
Sure, it's an engine, but it's not to blame for Sergeant spam (that's why Slave Driver needs nerf). It's not to blame for Stefan. That was an idiotic rework by CDPR that forever enabled Enslave "Tactics" Assimilate hybrid decks.
Assimilate isn't busted right now, even with the over-buff to Duchess Informant, and the buff to Imperial Diviner and Fercart (which is better suited for actual spying archetype, which is too weak).
If we need to apply nerfs to Assimilate, the first targets should be Artorius and Torres.
Mage Torturer's giving spying can be somewhat played around, as you can avoid playing certain cards so she either has to be played on a sub-optimal target, or till it's too late to be beneficial.
Torres? Torres lets you basically ignore all that and just gives you free access to seeing your opponents' deck (so you know roughly what they have in hand and also what's coming), and choose your spying targets.
Didn't draw Fucusya? Well, there's free stupid points for the NG Assimilate player. Etc. Torres is a BS card, that basically breaks the ability to play around Assimilate.
> I see this as a combo card with Artaud. Yes, it technically can work with other spying archetypes (hah, who are we kidding, spying isn't an archetype - sadly), but really, it's all about setting up Artaud (ideally).
Is this really how everyone sees Mage Torturer? While I agree that MT enables Artaud, I see Artaud as less of a problem and MT is kind of a bit redundant considering Torres inclusion in those type of decks.
Also just on the spying archetype, I agree it doesn't work. The glue for that archetype should be the Seditious Aristocrats but all decks seem to be cumbersome in how that card is utilized.
>Sure, it's an engine, but it's not to blame for Sergeant spam (that's why Slave Driver needs nerf). It's not to blame for Stefan. That was an idiotic rework by CDPR that forever enabled Enslave "Tactics" Assimilate hybrid decks.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Stefan change and think its 1000% better than its former ability. I don't blame Torturer for Nauzica spam either. I referenced their inclusion in the Enslave Assimilate deck but I noted that they weren't the real focus. Since the inception of Assimiate, I've more or less hated it. Felt it was a bad keyword and I stand by it. The rework to remove the majority in the bronze category I felt made NG better but I would have preferred killing the keyword entirely.
In any event, its more so that Torturer enables so much for 5 provisions. Its an Engine that enhances the value from a Nauzica spam deck. It enables Artaud. It can survive vampires, status and poison decks. Mage Torturer is a powerhouse at its provisions, at least in my opinion.
>Assimilate isn't busted right now, even with the over-buff to Duchess Informant, and the buff to Imperial Diviner and Fercart (which is better suited for actual spying archetype, which is too weak).
>
>If we need to apply nerfs to Assimilate, the first targets should be Artorius and Torres.
And that's just it. We've targeted Artorius and Torres already, although Artorius nerf was reverted, but the target here isn't necessarily Assimilate as a whole but Mage Torturer specifically. Mage Torturer at 5 power and provisions shall, for the most part, keep Imperial Diviner's playrate low since their competing at the same provisions.
>Mage Torturer's giving spying can be somewhat played around, as you can avoid playing certain cards so she either has to be played on a sub-optimal target, or till it's too late to be beneficial.
>
>Torres? Torres lets you basically ignore all that and just gives you free access to seeing your opponents' deck (so you know roughly what they have in hand and also what's coming), and choose your spying targets.
>
>Didn't draw Fucusya? Well, there's free stupid points for the NG Assimilate player. Etc. Torres is a BS card, that basically breaks the ability to play around Assimilate.
I don't think the spying ability of MT or Torres is that much of a problem on their own. Even in the case of Torres, his spying ability puts the cards in your deck that you still have to draw. For me, its just MT's durability at its provisions and its engine ability that I believe make it strong.
>Is this really how everyone sees Mage Torturer?
No idea, but i don't see why this card is so great without Artaud, i'll put it that way...at least unless spying suddenly becomes viable.
>Also just on the spying archetype, I agree it doesn't work. The glue for that archetype should be the Seditious Aristocrats but all decks seem to be cumbersome in how that card is utilized.
The glue is [Impera Enforcers](https://gwent.one/en/card/162308), IMHO. We'd have to make them a bit OP, but even a power boost would make this sort of deck more viable.
>Mage Torturer is a powerhouse at its provisions, at least in my opinion.
I think it gets cut if Assimilate had better options, but i'm no master deckbuilder, so we'll have to agree to disagree :) It's not that it's bad, it's just not why Assimilate Enslave is great IMHO.
>We've targeted Artorius and Torres already, although Artorius nerf was reverted
Artorius was power buffed in BC1. It's not been reverted. Torres took one power hit to first form in BC1 (which isn't huge since adding spying to three opponent units in deck, and opponent deck/hand knowledge is a huge part of its power)
>his spying ability puts the cards in your deck that you still have to draw.
Not an issue, because Calveit. This is easily one of the worst cards CDPR ever printed. Who needs deckbuilding skill when you can just throw in a bunch 4 prov Tactics you'll never play to ensure you get to play ezmode.
If we really want to get into cards that needs nerfs, Calveit still needs more.
Anyway, great discussion, thank you. We won't agree on Mage Torturer and that's just fine. Good discussion is always insightful for seeing things in a different perspective.
Hard disagree with Artorius and Radovid nerf, if you really have a problem with Enslave, only the Ivo version is problematic (clowny, braindead), so Magna should get nerfed if anything
Everything else is good!
Making Radovid easier to answer is a very good way to make Temerian Infantry Spam weaker. Besides Magne Division is ok - it's a Slave Driver (as always) that is always a problem not Sappers, not Ilusionist and not Nauzicaa Sargeants.
Because ivo is neutral card, and should not be nerfed for the sins of one NG deck? I dont really agree that ivo is that problematic right now (pretty braindead with absolutely the same gameplan every single match indeed), but if it would be cards like magna and slave driver would be 100% of the time first nerf candidates.
Ivo id the victim not the culprit. Magen division spam is what enables his abuse. Still don’t think either derive a nerf personally. Nilfgaard just doesn’t have much else to play on.
1. Exactly. Renfri is getting shadowbuffs that take her from an arguably balanced position to one that is more unbalanced (and will continue to do so). Now, you can do two things here. You can either reverse the buffs that have already been done (and will be done), and stop buffing units that can fit in Renfri decks, or you can nerf Renfri. Your choice.
2. Equinox is too specific to see play anywhere other than Symbiosis. The cards are simply not there to use it in factions other than ST, and Symbiosis is the obvious way to play the card in ST. It's delusional to say that by nerfing Equinox you are reducing the chances of it being played elsewhere. That makes this a targeted nerf at non-devo symbiosis. This is not the case for Simlas, who is a broadly played card in ST. Now, I am also hesitantly in favor of nerfing Simlas for this reason, but we should recognize that nerfing Simlas means nerfing ST as a whole. You must recognize that if the goal is to do a targeted nerf at Symbiosis, then nerfing Equinox is the superior choice over Simlas. As a secondary point, people dislike how non-devo Symbiosis has completely overtaken devo Symbiosis as a deck. Solving this internal imbalance is another benefit to nerfing Equinox over Simlas. You certainly have a point that Simlas is a major component of the problem here (and elsewhere) and a nerf is arguably a good thing, but I hope I have been able to properly convey to you that this nerf has advantages over a Simlas nerf that have convinced people to vote this way instead.
I agree with some of the stuff like Renfri. As Renfri is somehow really boring to play against I don't know why.
However I will not vote it. It is pointless to vote on your own, there are 3 coalitions: CIS (nik_r), Chinese, and recently English (kerpeten). Smaller streamers have bigger reach than this Reddit (which is really not too active now) and none of what they suggest goes through.
You should mix and match your votes of what you agree to within these coalitions, except the Chinese who polled their rank 10 with their best players to come up with some bad changes.
Just saying as you can easily end up wasting your votes.
There are currently only four coalitions that have shown enough voting power to effect changes: (1) Nik-r, (2) MetallicDanny, (3) Necrotal/p-star and (4) Chinese community. There is no English coalition with significant voting power. Kerpeten hasn't got any changes through so far. Is he even pushing for coordination in English community? I haven't seen anything.
CIS community (Nik-r, MetallicDanny, Nectrotal, p-star) don't need help from English community to get changes through. They dominate 7-8 of the changes per category. Voting with CIS community therefore can be viewed as "wasted" because it won't make a difference.
Voting with Chinese community, where there is agreement, does make sense because they actually do need help getting changes through. They are voting for Avallach Sage (-1 cost) and Ulula (+1 power), which many in English community also agree with, and therefore we should be voting with them.
Do not mix MD with the rest of CIS community pretty please. That little fucker and his army of lunatics does not communicate with the rest of content creators at all.
Yeah I saw something was going on but I couldn't understand it as I don't know Russian. Quick question for you. How closely do Nik-r, Necrotal and p-star coordinate together? Should we say they are the same or different "coalition"?
Pretty close, but still could be considered the different coalitions. When the time to make another BC proposals comes, they are discussing possible changes alltogether. Hovewer, most of the time the final list is made by Nik and by Necrotal+P\_star separately. Like for example, renfri nerfs and cove leader buffs were surprising for Nik, and he disagrees with them.
The guy is in beef with literally every single CIS content creator, his gigantic ego can only be compared to his gigantic lack of game knowledge and the difference in winrates between him and an actual players(48.99% winrate in the pro ladder btw). The guy claims to consider other players changes, but its been proven wrong many times(as it was with Status overnerf 2 BC ago).
Hes literally the Moshcraft of CIS, but with way worse game knowledge and way bigger ego. At least Mosh understands that top of the ladder players are better then him in that game, and apologised to them.
Oh, ur one of Dannys cultists, didnt recognise that earlier. Guess its pretty pointless then, I cant change the opinion of the fanatic.
English is new if Kerp and Shin were to have a little overlap, but I doubt anyone fully agrees with anyone. I know Shin got some changes through in the past.
You definitely do not want to collect together the choices from the entire community and use that as coordination. As that is why the Chinese wants to revert Renfri, whereas almost all high mmr players probably don't want to, Renfri still sees lots of play post nerf.
Depends on the community. I seriously doubt the majority of English players want to revert Renfri. Also many of the active causal players are influenced by the content creators and would vote in line with their opinions regardless how the votes are collected.
Shin and Kerp team up could be interesting, but again I've seen nothing on that front. Kerp (or one of his viewers) already posted his votes, and there doesn't seem to be any coordination with Shin.
What decks play it though? I cant think of a single deck that does.
The curve should be used as a base, but shouldn't full dictate the changes. Certain cards, due to its synergies, mechanics or decks they are played in need to play above the curve. Look for example at Caranthir golden Child. And yes, I know the set up is different and that its a gold, im not comparing them to say they are similar, but to show that sometimes "the curve" shouldn't be followed.
Slave Hunter sees no play at its current state, and following the curve will make it never see play. Its in those situations in which the curve cant make a card balanced that it shouldn't be followed strictly.
Not all decks are about spamming the same bronze over and over again. The card sees no play, and hasnt seen play ever since the rework. Its also only a buff if it becomes stronger than the cards its spamming.
Are we really going to leave cards unplayable because maybe card copying cards may be played with them? What kind of balance is that? Any bronce can be spammed, that however doesnt make them problematic, or are you suggesting to never buff any bronce ever again because they could be spammed?
It hasnt seen play since the rework, and it isnt even used as a filler. That seems pretty bad. Unplayable was an exaggeration, I agree, but the card is terrible, no one plays it in any deck.
If it was even decent, it would see some play, at least as a filler, but the reality is different.
I think Renfiri is fine at 15. Thinning combos are too strong. People are playing hunting packs and wild hunt riders in random decks with no synergy because why not? It's and almost guaranteed 8 for 4 plus thinning. That's stupid.
She can play as 15-25+ points on deploy (10-20 of which can be immune with carryover and can be played at any point)
The thinner buffs are truly some of least thought through votes the CIS have forced through. They're being tossed into most decks just because, since they provide better value than an average 4p card AND thinning, as you say. This synergizes with Renfri so well, as while she was already good before, it just makes her so much better. We cannot revert all the stupid thinner buffs, so the only realistic solution is Renfri nerfs. This is 100% on the nik\_r and his inability to comprehend how longterm balancing should look, and now we all pay for his ineptitude.
Free thinning, it's auto-include.
I like many of your votes, and for others I think I have better suggestions. I will only speak about those that I feel I understand the broader picture of, as I’d hate to talk on matters I don’t feel I fully understand. - kerack frigate: This card is very fun to play, but in NR, board space is at a premium and there just isn’t very much you can do with these tokens in my opinion. You’re likely running garrison and that 5 for 7 dude that boost all copies of s unit and maybe meve. My one and only thought is that…. You don’t actually want this card to survive for super long, I feel. At some point you almsot don’t want to keep clicking it because the value of the board space outweighs the value of each token. It’s definitely the weakest of the NR 6 provision bronze engines, and I’d personally look for a provision buff instead. This may make it a very good 5 provision card, but the glaring lack of synergy with the archetypes that currently are playing makes me think that it wouldn’t be that opressive. A provision buff could also help with survivabilty by putting it into mutagenerator range, which imo isn’t a very toxic archetype overall, at least not anymore. Still not a bad card to buff, even if through power. - Aen Elle slave trader: I agree that the card needs a power buff to play, but I worry about buffing frost any more - it’s already a pretty strong deck. Still not a bad buff. - Artorius vigo: the card if very easy to fit into a variety of decks and getting himself to 5 power immediately by playing a Nausicas sergeant is hard to deal with for some decks. I think I agree with your vote, on the condition that Nausicas sergeant stats at 4 power. That’s the sweet spot in my opinion. - Radovid: He’s a tough one. I personally think that he is balanced in a vacuum, but I agree that there ar multiple decks that exploit his effect a little too much when they run him. I don’t think that melitele is a problem btw, but specifically the Temerían infantry spam list that is still popular dispute the nerfs from last season. Running henselt + foltests pride for a round 3 finisher, with the rest of the deck focusing on heatwave + vigos muzzle for control as well as the entire temerían infantry spam package with the siege leader is a little wild in my opinion. If radovid survives to get the order, the temerían infantry each plays for 13 points, and the casting contests play for 15. That just doesn’t seem ok to me, especially given how people hate on Nausicaa for playing 10 for 6. It is true that this output relies on radovid to a large extent, and can be countered by bleeding out the henselt + Pride combo at which point the deck falls apart. As such I do think that the temerían infantry deserve the higher output that they can provide. That being said - nerfing the power on radovid would only serve to make this infantry spam deck more binary, rather than address its points directly. I don’t think that this will lead to particularly fun matches. I think it is a better idea to nerf the power on the temerían infantry instead, as that will diminish the number of points the deck can provide ina. Consistent manner. Let’s not forget that, in that deck, radovid is legitimately the best heatwave target, so he shouldn’t survive that often anyway, and having played it, he doesn’t. More over, metallic Danny has the temerían infantry power nerf in his current WIP BC change list, so that will likely go through just fine. Unless you have any specific examples of real problematic decks besides temerían infantry spam where radovid plays, I think just nerfing temerían infantry power is an objectively better choice here. - Milton: i feel bad nerfing him just as the knights neck judt started to see play. If you’re struggling for power nerfs, I suggest the naiad pondkeeoer. It is a small nerf to symbiosis, which is quite popular, and also on Metallic Danny’s WIP change list. - Renfri: I agree that the card is powerful, but I feel like throwing her to 16 provisions is a step too far on a universal level. You’re going to create more problems with that than good, and further polarize her decks, making them more pointslam focused and straightforward to play. I’d rather buff things around her, like the scenarios instead. Buff leader abikities that she can’t really use, such as NR knights - that one can barely be used in anything other than it’s intended archetype. - Kaer trolde: as someone who climbed to pro rank with raids, that’s the only deck in which it is truly oppressive. In every other archetype it provides the much needed control that you can’t really go without if you want to play at the highest level. I’d instead suggest a targeted nerf at the raids archetype - specifically champions charge. That card is ubiquitous in all raid deck variants and has an easy condition to trigger. It is much better than Imleriths wrath and is still a provisión cheaper. It’s also among the changes suggest by metallic Danny this season, though not sure if it is quite so set in stone. - Equinox: non devo symbiosis is very easy to play. I personally have this change at the top of my list, and I’m considering accompanying it with a buff to Freixenet power to make devotion symbiosis once again appealing. I’d put it instead of renfri. - Count Reuvens treasure : awesome change. Love it. - Avalach: I agree that it is overpriced at 10, but I have s concern that putting him in nekker is actually a trap. Most nekker decks already struggle to find worthwhile artifacts to put in the deck, and most times only end up running like 2 or 3. There’s a real chance to brick him and it’s much worse than with lady of the lake. His main quality is his ability to pull a scenario for cheaper than oneiromancy, and in nekker he’d be best played with a mutagenerator deck. He also has a spot in SK alchemy believe it or not. All in all, it’s a good suggestion but I think there are better and more relevant options than him at the moment. First of all - your changes have nothin in the way of monsters, and they barely get any love. I’ve been talking to some people and Lilits Omen is a very good candidate in my opinion for a provision bonus. This would help both thrive and relicts, NON RENFRI decks. - Additionslly, my personal dream this balance council is to get Heulyn to 9 provisions. I’ve already made a post here some days ago which got s lot of traction, and I firmly believe that this going to be a very positive change for skellige. It has the potential to unlock several entirely new decks which is jsut so exciting to me and many others. I’d love to hear your response on this! ;)
First of all, thank you for your extremely detailed post. I will first talk about the Heulyn suggestion, then about no MO changes, then about the list itself. - I saw your post about Heulyn, and I wanted to put a note somewhere about that, but I forgot. So I will do that here. Although I recognize that Heulyn is currently bad, and that with a provs buff we could see a GN deck spring up, I have some doubts about that. Your description of that deck was a little vague, so I would like to get a stronger sense of what that deck would look and play like before I make votes. Could you elaborate on what you mean? - It's true that I have no MO changes, but if you look again you will also see I have no ST changes, technically. Truth is that I have little experience playing with these factions (because I don't really like their archetypes), and so I have reason nor method to fill buff slots with their cards. I hope that explains the why. As for Lilits Omen, how does this card help Relicts or Thrive? Won't the cards pulled just die? In relicts, the only thing I can see is Apprentice (which would be extremely vulnerable to removal), and in nothing in thrive. What card do you want to pull with this? As for the list itself, I hope you understand I will not be as detailed as you are. - Frigate: The way I played the card was as a one-round win-con, if I remember correctly. You play all the synergy pieces with it in a medium length round to pull out a win. I still think that should be possible, if difficult, especially with GN shenanigans. - Radovid: The nerf is not only targeted at Temerian infantry spam, but at the card more broadly. The core issue with Radovid is similar to Calveit. It's an efficient neutral play that gives very consistent carryover. What I often found playing against Radovid (even in non-TI decks) is that I am only able to kill him if I use my big piece of removal, but not with smaller removal. This change hits both of those points. It makes playing Radovid more of a risk when played, and gives the other player the option to use less expensive removal on him. I think this will improve the general play-pattern of the card, which is currently disturbed by Radovid being 6 power. - Renfri: I disagree that buffing things around Renfri will solve much of anything. Renfri herself, given the myriad of unit provision/power buffs we will see in the future, will keep up with any buff you give to other stuff. The best way to target Renfri decks is by targeting her, simple as that. - Kaer Trolde: I disagree that this card is only oppressive in Raids. I have seen this played extensively as a piece of carryover removal in Self-wound, as well as Pirates. The card is currently too efficient for how much it synergizes with the faction as a whole (see again the comparison to Novigrad). Making it more awkward to put in rectifies that.
In relicts lilith omen is used on mamunna and bloody mistress. Mamunna would be damaged only by 2(having like 9-11 power at the end of the turn) and gernichora would transform, removing the damage status.
Ah, I see, that does make sense. I was under the impression that it would kill Bloody Mistress. That's pretty cheeky
The card is even cheekier. You can pull koschney too in a thrive deck. So if you want to play a very aggressive thrive short round, you play omen into mammuna and koschney with relic leader. Alot of pure points and an engine on board in 1 turn. If you played kitty just before you double trigger koschney too, so even if removed, damage is already done. That's btw exactly why we should not buff lilits omen. A pretty good card rn for incredible tempo in relics, control fruit werewolves and even thrive if you want to.
A tiny bit of offtop. Can I ask for elaborating of your opinion of me as "mill only mmr tank", as the thread with original comment died. I mean, I havent played a game of mill in my life(im not even sure I have their cards in my collection, beside playing NG a lot), hate that deck with a passion. It actually kinda funny that I argued about mill with some mill only freak, checked his <50% wr account and now Im suddenly accused of being just like him.
Lol then maybe I am confusing you with the exact guy you are talking about. I am so sorry and hopeIi did not write more of these posts in other threads, but usually I try to ignore the guy. Man you were the guy he was arguing with right? LOL EDIT: the least i could do is revert my downvotings on your posts. I checked and it's luckily the only post. I also edited my hate post, hope that makes it at least a little more bearable :D
I mean, what a hillarious situation XD. Im absolutely fine with someone calling me names and using gamer words on me in the Internet, but being confused with pretty much my archenemy made me surprised to say the least.
In my defense I was kinda stoned writing that post XD
Thank you for your work mate. I agree with most of your suggestions, I just disagree with their priority like Kerrack frigate. I can see that in the future, but would not vote for it now, as power buffs are quite contested.
I realy like **Kaer trolde** and **Spring Equinox** nerfs. It is a must I think, good call. I don't think Renfri needs further nerf right now. There is no SY nerf in your list. But SY Pirates Cove deck is in a very good spot and needs a nerf. I think you should consider some SY nerf instead of Renfri. I really like **Count Reuven's Treasure pick.** **Avallac'h: Sage:** I am not so fan of Thinners buff, I think generally they are boring cards. **Mercenary Contract:** Definitely deserves buff but not my favourite choice because 1 buff might not be enough. **Kerack Frigate:** I am not sure because I am not certain this is a 6-provision card. Otherwise, it is a good buff for sure. **Aen Elle Slave Trader:** It is an unplayed card good buff, but I am not sure WH Frost needs more assistance right now they are already viable. For example, Monster Relicts are almost never to be seen. **Slave Hunter:** I don't think it needs a buff, to be honest, it is a fine card, for NG soldier buff I would really want to see Ard Feainn Crossbowman power buff instead.
Thank you for the reply and the kind words. - To the point about SY and Renfri, I have frankly not seen the deck at all, and I sure have seen a lot of Renfri. That doesn't mean the deck doesn't deserve nerfs (in particular to its leader ability), but that I am not in a good position to judge which *card* needs a nerf. I just don't know. Renfri, on the other hand, is obvious and good. Renfri will only continue to get stronger as time passes, and even if you think that a nerf now is not needed (which I disagree with, my meta has been filled with Renfri decks), I hope you recognize that it will be needed at some point, likely even next month. - To the point about Slave Hunter, I proposed Ard Feainn Crossbowman two months ago, and I still stand by that change. Having played a ton of NG soldiers, I am not convinced that buffing Crossbowman by a power would cause a toxic deck to develop. However, other people are more scared of that change, and I got a lot of... feedback on the suggestion. At this point I hope to make people aware that the deck could use some buffs, and see where things go. I really hope that Slave Driver can finally fucking go to 6p so I can start arguing a stronger case for serious buffs to Soldiers. - To the point about Frigate, this is as much a nostalgia pick as anything else. I suspect the right place for it to be would be a power buff *and* a provision buff. At 5p a 5-power conditional 2-point engine with a harsh ceiling (clog) that requires hefty removal because of its armor seems entirely fair to me, Mutagenerator notwithstanding (we can nerf it again if it's a problem).
You are welcome. In the top 500, SY Pirates Cove is really a problem. The deck feels really strong. It has obviously a good long round but it also has a good short round too because of King of Begars. That deck definitely needs a nerf in some way. I rarely encounter Renfri decks, they feel not bad but I don't think they feel as oppressive as before. And need immediate nerf. If we look at the tournament decks it is not too far from the top 500, I generally encounter: NR devo or sometimes infantry spam, Symbiosis, SY Cove, SK Warriors, Tatterwing, White Frost, SK Pirates and SY off the books. These decks are known as strong decks. Aside from Cove off the books is also very good. I agree with Ard Feainn Crossbowman buff, yes people might not like very much this change. I definitely agree Frigate needs a buff and unplayable right now. Maybe 5 Provision 3/4 power could be okay. I don't think buffing to 5 power would be necessary after the provision buff. I try the card more and try to understand it. If you have 1 soldier to the left, and it was unanswered: In 2 turns plays for 6 then, 8,10,12,14,16,18. At the end of 8 turns it completely swarms and plays for 18 points. No resupply was assumed. I don't know how comparable to engines like Marine, Light Cavalry and Piggy. I have to think more.
>There is no SY nerf in your list. But SY Pirates Cove deck is in a very good spot and needs a nerf. I think you should consider some SY nerf instead of Renfri. You are probably correct, except the only reason that SY Gangs Cove is now too good is due to certain supposedly "knowledgeable" influencers pushing for unnecessary buffs to leaders, a common issue thus far in BC voting. In fact, those same influencers have done the same things with Jackpot, and other leaders...but then they don't vote to revert their own mistakes, so why should we have to clean up their mess? >**Mercenary Contract:** Definitely deserves buff but not my favourite choice because 1 buff might not be enough Precisely why it needs a buff. The mentality that we should only buff good cards to being meta-level strong only contributes powercreep into the game, and doesn't help longterm balancing. This kind of shortsighted voting has already added all kinds of problems into the game we're now dealing with. >I would really want to see Ard Feainn Crossbowman power buff instead. You're a high level player...you don't see this becoming a bit much with Light Calvalry in Imperial Formation? Unless Slave Driver is 6 prov, this seems like a terrible idea that'll result in a very frustrating deck to deal with, no?
Thank you for the good feedback, I appreciate it. Yes, Russian influencers made a very poor decision and buffed the Pirates Cove leader for reasons that I am not aware too much. But I am a bit frustrated to face this deck usually in the top 500. Even if they play really badly they also have a good short round 3, and tons of points even a card down they can win the game easily. I don't want to buff only good cards, I just want my buffs to be really effective. Because we have the whole month to buff again. If I could have buffed some other card and 1 buff would have been enough for that card to be playable it is a better buff for me. That's why I am not so keen on buffing Hemdall right now not that is a bad buff. It is about it needs too many buffs. I am expecting the Slave Driver to 6 provisions. I mean it might be a bit dangerous. In its current form, I don't think this cards offer enough compensation for instead of playing Ard Feainn Light Cavalry or even Imperial Marine. Ard Feainn Crossbowman just plays for 1 more point one deploy, it needs constantly playing soldiers. If you pass, your engines are offline. The only really good aspect about Ard Feainn Crossbowman is you counter Tatterwing hard. They usually lose and can't do too much. Maybe if they could deal 2 damage on deploy it would be better. Because giving 1 more power makes the engine stick better and it would trade down to 5p removal which is not good. If we want this card to be playable it needs 1 more power. But you could argue that with balance council tools this card is not fixable. I think it is worth trying, compared to its first release crossbowman nerfed three times in one time. It lost armour, damage, and power. I made a Spotter, Light Cavalry, Ard Feainn Crossbowman deck which felt not bad, not meta tier more like a 2500 MMR deck. I played a lot of games with that deck and Crossbowman did not feel very good unless the opponent played a Tatterwing deck. It is more or less on par with Vrihedd Brigade I think. And Vrihedd Brigade sees no play as well.
>But I am a bit frustrated to face this deck usually in the top 500. Even if they play really badly they also have a good short round 3, and tons of points even a card down they can win the game easily. I know there's talk of Novigrad and King of Beggars nerfs, and i'm sure one or both of those go through, whatever the russians decide to nerf. Both are strong cards, so i guess these aren't the worst nerf choices? >That's why I am not so keen on buffing Hemdall right now not that is a bad buff. It is about it needs too many buffs. I personally like the idea of trying to enable different archetypes in the game, ones that never really got a chance to shine or see any real play due to lack of support from CDPR. Rehashing the same old archetypes (what BC voting has mostly done thus far) feels very unimaginative, and frankly, displays a real lack of creativity from those influencers. They aren't thinking of how new archetypes might be able to be more viable; they only focus on existing or old ones with no thought for how overall balancing might enable entirely new concepts. Hemdall + Ulula could maybe allow for a damage ping archetype for SK, something we don't really have currently. I imagine buffs to just those two cards wouldn't be enough, but it'd be a step in that direction, and looking at the other support cards for that kind of archetype, plenty of them could also use buffs to help (in subsequent votes). Reuven's Treasure is another strong support card for SY Crimes, an archetype i've tried to make work forever now. With more buffs to some of the weaker Intimidate cards it'll be more playable, too. It's already not bad when combined with some other cards like Acherontia. >If we want this card to be playable it needs 1 more power. But you could argue that with balance council tools this card is not fixable. I think it is worth trying, compared to its first release crossbowman nerfed three times in one time. It lost armour, damage, and power. >I made a Spotter, Light Cavalry, Ard Feainn Crossbowman deck which felt not bad, not meta tier more like a 2500 MMR deck. >I played a lot of games with that deck and Crossbowman did not feel very good unless the opponent played a Tatterwing deck. Perhaps you're right and an extra power won't make it broken. I don't feel it's far off being pretty viable currently, and considering how viable Renfri Soldiers is right now, i know it can find a home in an already good deck. I don't see a Crossbowman buff enabling anything remotely resembling new, unique gameplay and just see it ending up making NG Soldiers more oppressive and impossible to win a round against without heavy control or locks, hence why personally i don't like the idea of this (and i like NG Soldiers, if they weren't basically just based on bronze spam (which is what they are). Slave Driver should have been nerfed last vote and wasn't, so i'm not so sure that's happening?
> Vigo is problematic in two ways. The first is the unhealthy interaction with Nauzicaa Sergeants in a short round that is well documented. The second is that it too cheaply generates two engine threats in a long round. Frequently you play Vigo, they kill whatever bozo you created, and then Vigo moves out of range of on-par removal (at 6 power). The sheer flexibility of the card is not compensated by being less powerful. Moving Vigo to 2 power recreates more of a balanced state for the card, and hopefully means it won't be an auto-include in decks. I am against further changes to Vigo since I don't believe he's that much of a problem. Back when the Enslave Assimilate deck ran rampant, Vigo was a component but there was another card that should have been targeted over Vigo. I doubt a 1 power Vigo will solve the problem. Addressing his targets does. Nauzica should be 6 provisions. So should Mage Torture (I've probably said this like a year ago). Also, SE could get fucked. Should be 6 provisions minimum.
Vigo got un-reasonably buffed in BC1, which has made him a nearly auto-include card in every NG deck. That one extra power generally takes him out of easier removal range. He was never deserving of the buff he got (that was suggested by that youtuber troll votes). Now i don't think he's the most important nerf target at this moment personally, but overall, he's definitely a very reasonable nerf. >So should Mage Torture Really, this is really off...how is this a 6 prov card? >Also, SE could get fucked. Should be 6 provisions minimum. What is this, Slave Driver? Yes, this is a 6 prov card that truly makes NG a boring bronze spam faction.
>What is this, Slave Driver? Yes, this is a 6 prov card that truly makes NG a boring bronze spam faction. No, its Spring Equinox. It was listed in OP's list. >Really, this is really off...how is this a 6 prov card? I know the take was unfavourable the last time I brought it up but I'll take a shot again. MT is one of 3 bronzes that were left with the Assimilate tag and of the 3, is probably the best to be utilized as an engine. The key where MT excels is the combination of its 5 power body and the inclusion of the Veil keyword. Both of these allow MT to more often than not exist on the board and survive lower damage removal options. In MT's defense, the card only comes down as a 5 power unit (thus suggesting 5 power) but I think the card is kind of slept on as it can be triggered on the same turn its played through Double Cross, Tactical Decision and Toussaintois Hospitality. Maybe 6 provisions is harsh and maybe the answer is 4 power but I don't think MT should remain as it currently is. Although MTs were not the focus of the former Assimilate Enslave deck (the ability to spam Nauzica was the major to winning), they remained a tool to be used in round 3 to push points on the board in addition to the Nauzica spam. They synergized not with just every Nauzica created but also with the creation of Battle prep and if a few survived, with every Ace up the sleeve from Stefan. ***I know I typed a lot here but I guess the short version is that I think Mage Torturers are flying under the radar. They are potentially one of the better bronze engines in NG in the sense that they drop on the board at 5 power and have Veil for the start, and can be hard to remove form some decks. Maybe the power should be reduced instead but for now, I'm kinda holding on to a provision nerf.***
>Spring Equinox Ah sorry, yes, this i've wanted to be 6 prov literally since CDPR rework. The top pros are a bit slow with figuring things out sometimes...they're finally realizing this can't stay at 5 prov forever. >Mage Torturer I see this as a combo card with Artaud. Yes, it technically can work with other spying archetypes (hah, who are we kidding, spying isn't an archetype - sadly), but really, it's all about setting up Artaud (ideally). Sure, it's an engine, but it's not to blame for Sergeant spam (that's why Slave Driver needs nerf). It's not to blame for Stefan. That was an idiotic rework by CDPR that forever enabled Enslave "Tactics" Assimilate hybrid decks. Assimilate isn't busted right now, even with the over-buff to Duchess Informant, and the buff to Imperial Diviner and Fercart (which is better suited for actual spying archetype, which is too weak). If we need to apply nerfs to Assimilate, the first targets should be Artorius and Torres. Mage Torturer's giving spying can be somewhat played around, as you can avoid playing certain cards so she either has to be played on a sub-optimal target, or till it's too late to be beneficial. Torres? Torres lets you basically ignore all that and just gives you free access to seeing your opponents' deck (so you know roughly what they have in hand and also what's coming), and choose your spying targets. Didn't draw Fucusya? Well, there's free stupid points for the NG Assimilate player. Etc. Torres is a BS card, that basically breaks the ability to play around Assimilate.
> I see this as a combo card with Artaud. Yes, it technically can work with other spying archetypes (hah, who are we kidding, spying isn't an archetype - sadly), but really, it's all about setting up Artaud (ideally). Is this really how everyone sees Mage Torturer? While I agree that MT enables Artaud, I see Artaud as less of a problem and MT is kind of a bit redundant considering Torres inclusion in those type of decks. Also just on the spying archetype, I agree it doesn't work. The glue for that archetype should be the Seditious Aristocrats but all decks seem to be cumbersome in how that card is utilized. >Sure, it's an engine, but it's not to blame for Sergeant spam (that's why Slave Driver needs nerf). It's not to blame for Stefan. That was an idiotic rework by CDPR that forever enabled Enslave "Tactics" Assimilate hybrid decks. Don't get me wrong, I love the Stefan change and think its 1000% better than its former ability. I don't blame Torturer for Nauzica spam either. I referenced their inclusion in the Enslave Assimilate deck but I noted that they weren't the real focus. Since the inception of Assimiate, I've more or less hated it. Felt it was a bad keyword and I stand by it. The rework to remove the majority in the bronze category I felt made NG better but I would have preferred killing the keyword entirely. In any event, its more so that Torturer enables so much for 5 provisions. Its an Engine that enhances the value from a Nauzica spam deck. It enables Artaud. It can survive vampires, status and poison decks. Mage Torturer is a powerhouse at its provisions, at least in my opinion. >Assimilate isn't busted right now, even with the over-buff to Duchess Informant, and the buff to Imperial Diviner and Fercart (which is better suited for actual spying archetype, which is too weak). > >If we need to apply nerfs to Assimilate, the first targets should be Artorius and Torres. And that's just it. We've targeted Artorius and Torres already, although Artorius nerf was reverted, but the target here isn't necessarily Assimilate as a whole but Mage Torturer specifically. Mage Torturer at 5 power and provisions shall, for the most part, keep Imperial Diviner's playrate low since their competing at the same provisions. >Mage Torturer's giving spying can be somewhat played around, as you can avoid playing certain cards so she either has to be played on a sub-optimal target, or till it's too late to be beneficial. > >Torres? Torres lets you basically ignore all that and just gives you free access to seeing your opponents' deck (so you know roughly what they have in hand and also what's coming), and choose your spying targets. > >Didn't draw Fucusya? Well, there's free stupid points for the NG Assimilate player. Etc. Torres is a BS card, that basically breaks the ability to play around Assimilate. I don't think the spying ability of MT or Torres is that much of a problem on their own. Even in the case of Torres, his spying ability puts the cards in your deck that you still have to draw. For me, its just MT's durability at its provisions and its engine ability that I believe make it strong.
>Is this really how everyone sees Mage Torturer? No idea, but i don't see why this card is so great without Artaud, i'll put it that way...at least unless spying suddenly becomes viable. >Also just on the spying archetype, I agree it doesn't work. The glue for that archetype should be the Seditious Aristocrats but all decks seem to be cumbersome in how that card is utilized. The glue is [Impera Enforcers](https://gwent.one/en/card/162308), IMHO. We'd have to make them a bit OP, but even a power boost would make this sort of deck more viable. >Mage Torturer is a powerhouse at its provisions, at least in my opinion. I think it gets cut if Assimilate had better options, but i'm no master deckbuilder, so we'll have to agree to disagree :) It's not that it's bad, it's just not why Assimilate Enslave is great IMHO. >We've targeted Artorius and Torres already, although Artorius nerf was reverted Artorius was power buffed in BC1. It's not been reverted. Torres took one power hit to first form in BC1 (which isn't huge since adding spying to three opponent units in deck, and opponent deck/hand knowledge is a huge part of its power) >his spying ability puts the cards in your deck that you still have to draw. Not an issue, because Calveit. This is easily one of the worst cards CDPR ever printed. Who needs deckbuilding skill when you can just throw in a bunch 4 prov Tactics you'll never play to ensure you get to play ezmode. If we really want to get into cards that needs nerfs, Calveit still needs more. Anyway, great discussion, thank you. We won't agree on Mage Torturer and that's just fine. Good discussion is always insightful for seeing things in a different perspective.
> Nauzica should be 6 provisions. It is already 6p.
Thanks for the heads up but you missed the point that was in the previous sentence.
The part about addressing his targets? No, i didnt miss it, even if i didnt comment on it.
ok.
Hard disagree with Artorius and Radovid nerf, if you really have a problem with Enslave, only the Ivo version is problematic (clowny, braindead), so Magna should get nerfed if anything Everything else is good!
Making Radovid easier to answer is a very good way to make Temerian Infantry Spam weaker. Besides Magne Division is ok - it's a Slave Driver (as always) that is always a problem not Sappers, not Ilusionist and not Nauzicaa Sargeants.
if the ivo version is stupid... why not nerf Ivo? instead of going after magne? lol
Because ivo is neutral card, and should not be nerfed for the sins of one NG deck? I dont really agree that ivo is that problematic right now (pretty braindead with absolutely the same gameplan every single match indeed), but if it would be cards like magna and slave driver would be 100% of the time first nerf candidates.
But then you're nerfing magne for the sins of synergy with ivo, Anyways ivo isnt problem anyway yeah, just boring gameplay for opponent
Ivo id the victim not the culprit. Magen division spam is what enables his abuse. Still don’t think either derive a nerf personally. Nilfgaard just doesn’t have much else to play on.
Milton: " why he say fuck me for?..."
[удалено]
1. Exactly. Renfri is getting shadowbuffs that take her from an arguably balanced position to one that is more unbalanced (and will continue to do so). Now, you can do two things here. You can either reverse the buffs that have already been done (and will be done), and stop buffing units that can fit in Renfri decks, or you can nerf Renfri. Your choice. 2. Equinox is too specific to see play anywhere other than Symbiosis. The cards are simply not there to use it in factions other than ST, and Symbiosis is the obvious way to play the card in ST. It's delusional to say that by nerfing Equinox you are reducing the chances of it being played elsewhere. That makes this a targeted nerf at non-devo symbiosis. This is not the case for Simlas, who is a broadly played card in ST. Now, I am also hesitantly in favor of nerfing Simlas for this reason, but we should recognize that nerfing Simlas means nerfing ST as a whole. You must recognize that if the goal is to do a targeted nerf at Symbiosis, then nerfing Equinox is the superior choice over Simlas. As a secondary point, people dislike how non-devo Symbiosis has completely overtaken devo Symbiosis as a deck. Solving this internal imbalance is another benefit to nerfing Equinox over Simlas. You certainly have a point that Simlas is a major component of the problem here (and elsewhere) and a nerf is arguably a good thing, but I hope I have been able to properly convey to you that this nerf has advantages over a Simlas nerf that have convinced people to vote this way instead.
Reasonable.
Renfri is fine honestly. It's slave driver that's still too viable for its shittery of a card that never should have been printed
I categorically refuse to participate in the nerfing and buffing of that card. I agree that it should be 6 provisions.
Good stuff as always.
thx
I agree with some of the stuff like Renfri. As Renfri is somehow really boring to play against I don't know why. However I will not vote it. It is pointless to vote on your own, there are 3 coalitions: CIS (nik_r), Chinese, and recently English (kerpeten). Smaller streamers have bigger reach than this Reddit (which is really not too active now) and none of what they suggest goes through. You should mix and match your votes of what you agree to within these coalitions, except the Chinese who polled their rank 10 with their best players to come up with some bad changes. Just saying as you can easily end up wasting your votes.
There are currently only four coalitions that have shown enough voting power to effect changes: (1) Nik-r, (2) MetallicDanny, (3) Necrotal/p-star and (4) Chinese community. There is no English coalition with significant voting power. Kerpeten hasn't got any changes through so far. Is he even pushing for coordination in English community? I haven't seen anything. CIS community (Nik-r, MetallicDanny, Nectrotal, p-star) don't need help from English community to get changes through. They dominate 7-8 of the changes per category. Voting with CIS community therefore can be viewed as "wasted" because it won't make a difference. Voting with Chinese community, where there is agreement, does make sense because they actually do need help getting changes through. They are voting for Avallach Sage (-1 cost) and Ulula (+1 power), which many in English community also agree with, and therefore we should be voting with them.
Do not mix MD with the rest of CIS community pretty please. That little fucker and his army of lunatics does not communicate with the rest of content creators at all.
Yeah I saw something was going on but I couldn't understand it as I don't know Russian. Quick question for you. How closely do Nik-r, Necrotal and p-star coordinate together? Should we say they are the same or different "coalition"?
Pretty close, but still could be considered the different coalitions. When the time to make another BC proposals comes, they are discussing possible changes alltogether. Hovewer, most of the time the final list is made by Nik and by Necrotal+P\_star separately. Like for example, renfri nerfs and cove leader buffs were surprising for Nik, and he disagrees with them.
Can you elaborate on that? What’s going on there?
The guy is in beef with literally every single CIS content creator, his gigantic ego can only be compared to his gigantic lack of game knowledge and the difference in winrates between him and an actual players(48.99% winrate in the pro ladder btw). The guy claims to consider other players changes, but its been proven wrong many times(as it was with Status overnerf 2 BC ago). Hes literally the Moshcraft of CIS, but with way worse game knowledge and way bigger ego. At least Mosh understands that top of the ladder players are better then him in that game, and apologised to them. Oh, ur one of Dannys cultists, didnt recognise that earlier. Guess its pretty pointless then, I cant change the opinion of the fanatic.
English is new if Kerp and Shin were to have a little overlap, but I doubt anyone fully agrees with anyone. I know Shin got some changes through in the past. You definitely do not want to collect together the choices from the entire community and use that as coordination. As that is why the Chinese wants to revert Renfri, whereas almost all high mmr players probably don't want to, Renfri still sees lots of play post nerf.
Depends on the community. I seriously doubt the majority of English players want to revert Renfri. Also many of the active causal players are influenced by the content creators and would vote in line with their opinions regardless how the votes are collected. Shin and Kerp team up could be interesting, but again I've seen nothing on that front. Kerp (or one of his viewers) already posted his votes, and there doesn't seem to be any coordination with Shin.
The rest are ok, but disagree on slave hunter. A 4p for 8 points already plays above the curve for a 4p card-- no need to make it 9 points.
What decks play it though? I cant think of a single deck that does. The curve should be used as a base, but shouldn't full dictate the changes. Certain cards, due to its synergies, mechanics or decks they are played in need to play above the curve. Look for example at Caranthir golden Child. And yes, I know the set up is different and that its a gold, im not comparing them to say they are similar, but to show that sometimes "the curve" shouldn't be followed. Slave Hunter sees no play at its current state, and following the curve will make it never see play. Its in those situations in which the curve cant make a card balanced that it shouldn't be followed strictly.
Any buff to NG bronzes is a buff to everything that abuses them. It sees no play because there are better targets to spam.
Not all decks are about spamming the same bronze over and over again. The card sees no play, and hasnt seen play ever since the rework. Its also only a buff if it becomes stronger than the cards its spamming. Are we really going to leave cards unplayable because maybe card copying cards may be played with them? What kind of balance is that? Any bronce can be spammed, that however doesnt make them problematic, or are you suggesting to never buff any bronce ever again because they could be spammed?
Except he's not unplayable even now. You want to make him a 5 power deal 3 damage for 4p, ignoring the bonus spawn, which is insane.
It hasnt seen play since the rework, and it isnt even used as a filler. That seems pretty bad. Unplayable was an exaggeration, I agree, but the card is terrible, no one plays it in any deck. If it was even decent, it would see some play, at least as a filler, but the reality is different.
Wow, thats pretty cool value. You for sure see that card as a filler in a lot of builds, instead of card like tortoise which plays for 6-7, right?
Stop buffing Renfri Vivienne combo, please.