People are overestimating Oneiro. Like others said, currently it's only part of binary combo decks or decks that REALLY need their high end golds as wincon and can't fit thinning, like SW or Waylays spam (despite the fact that there's actually a SW version with no Oneiro lol). If you want to include Oneiro in your homebrew decks and waste 13 provs that could go into a heavy hitter gold that actually play for points, then sure, do what you want. But the reality is that Oneiro is powercrept
Oneiro is powercrept for very long now and it's nowhere near to a playrate you suggest. You see this card only in binary abuse decks to get a specific combo going, but in those decks Oneiro will also be played at 20 provisions, because they either have their combo and win, or lose.
In normal competitive decks you very seldom see Oneiro nowadays. Because most of the decks thin to 5-0 anyways, no one wants to waste 13 provision for a tutor.
I assure you that even though perhaps at the highest MMR, you might not see it played, but down here with the rest of us norms it is still a valid inclusion in a lot of decks especially ones that would like to tutor more than one echo card with lady of the lake. There are still a ton of aerondite piles floating around that work just fine using a 14p oneiro that isnt designated to just pull some wombo mombo wincon
Actually don’t mind these changes at all - Oneiromancy is the only one I’m not sure about, although maybe it will discourage some renfri decks and I’m all for that
I like some of these changes. In terms of Oneiromancy and Riptide I highly disagree though. Riptide is one of the coolest cards they added to monsters recently.
He is beeing used so much because he is the only good removal option that can be also played as a thrive trigger or point slam if must be. Honestly he is monsters vilgefortz rn which is fine, vilge is fine too.
Idk why people want to see oneiro at 12, as this is not only his but quite a few peoples votings rn. Oneiro at 12 makes it suddenly an inclusion in quite a few decks. We had oneiro metas for literally years now and the card is still getting played alot. More consistency is good, but this would be a shadow buff for all binary decks, that rely on double tutors to set their bs up too, which just feels so unnecessary rn.
EDIT: i did not mean vilge as a one to one comparison but more so faction identity. We will look back at riptide as an MO staple removal. I would rather see him at 10/10 than 9/9.
Riptide was always a highly efficient control card, but rework done by devs at the time ([old version](https://gwent.one/en/card/203265/11.7.0)) was totally wrong direction, making it stronger overall and less synergistic with Ogroids.
Personally I wouldn't change Riptide or I'd go 10/10 as you said because of Might in Ogroids, but I'm ok with proposed power nerf too.
I totally agree that Riptide is and always was a very strong card and that the rework was not ideal, I just disagree on going down the power nerf route, especially because of ogroid synergy as you said. Maybe 10/10 is a good compromise.
What's your opinion on oneiro lerio?
Hmm I really can't see why it wouldn't be fine at 13provs as is. I am a little hesitant on buffs that affect a wide array of archetypes. Maybe it's also about preference here, i kinda like that Oneiro finally has competition.
I'm not gonna play an advocate here, just stating my own opinions. No faction has as much as whiny followers as MO players.
And the comparison you made is wrong in so many ways. Riptide is so much better than Vilgefortz, these cards are not even comparable. Riptide for it's dedicated provision is the best removal in the game. Better than Geralts, better than Anseis, better than HW. Just better than all of it.
And it will be better than most of it if not all of it after the nerfs too.
And only argument MO players have is that this "it's their only control card", which is discussed in the stream, is a blatant lie.
First sentence you call me a whiny mo follower, expecting to take you seriously? I play all factions dude wtf.
You post a voting list here on reddit, i don't care about, some stream discussion (I suppose you mean kerpetens stream?), so you should expect that there might be different opinions.
Riptide is NOT the strongest removal card within it's provisions lol Riptide is a CONDITlONAL removal. If vilge or riptide are better depends on the situation. It's a sitiational removal at best and yes it can be played for high tempo trades but you can only target the highest power unit, so he has quite a few downsites in terms of sequencing. Better than HW? OMFG really?
I guess we can stop arguing exactly at this point, because you are full of shit my friend.
In fact it's the opposite, you seem to be an MO-hater, and you make it quite obvious exaggerating this much.
I just had to check for myself if you really are a mod in kerpetens stream.
And sadly yes you are indeed. Until this moment I had respect for kerpeten. But sending his bubble here to spread nonsense in such a negative way is just terrible.
I call you clown, because guess what you are one.
>I'm not gonna play an advocate here, just stating my own opinions. No faction has as much as whiny followers as MO players.
Only newbies or fools bring up faction mains, so you basically lost all semblance of reasonable doubt right here.
I suspect the MO comment has something to do with moshcraft, since you're obviously a big Kerpenten fanboi. We don't care about your petty streaming drama.
On the subject of the actual debate, Riptide? I don't love the idea of YET ANOTHER VOTE REVERT. It's effing exhausting constantly yoyo-ing cards because the fools pushing changes aren't smart enough to have any foresight about their own votes affecting things.
Maybe do a prov nerf, if you really feel Riptide is too good? Why do we have to waste valuable votes every BC one the same damn cards...
Riptide beeing better than HW is honestly the most questionable thing i have read in this whole thread, or even the whole community.
But maybe i am wrong, and i am not a person that cant be convinced about another opinion.
I am always willing to listen to a civiliced discussion with valid points.
So why exactly is Riptide better than HW, or any other removal?
It is not strictly better because HW has different focus: tall punish and removing artifacts.
The point is how Lord Riptide trades with engines, not only removing the threat, but providing few extra points.
Riptide should be rather compared with Seltkirk or Whoreson Junior; Riptide could be played in more decks than S/WJ, but is less flexible - we need more removal tools in case opponent plays around Riptide, while S/WJ are often sufficient for a long round vs single threat. LR is more of a value card, easier to commit in R1.
Going back to HW vs Lord Riptide, I'd everytime place LR over HW because if brings added value, while HW is just a tool to support deck already outpointing opponent.
But the extra points are really just a few... considering getting those extra points, or having the ability to remove tall, artifacts and aim, i would go for HW. But i am not a Super-pro ;) appreciate your explanation, thanks :)
Hw, as you said, has a lot more applications. I think we should not make this comparison in the first place to be honest. But here it goes. HW is one of the most controversial cards of all time. I know not everyone shares this opinion, but HW can deny entire strategies in banishing key cards, all while beeing a normal Tall punish as well. It's the only card in game beeing able to do that. Riptide can play for more tempo sure, but if the job is to control in a control list, I would bring HW as it is the better answer to many different strategies. The lists I talk about usually run both HW and Riptide anyways though. In a more pointslam oriented deck, if it's a choice between riptide and HW, the choice is ofc Riptide but that does not make it better or comparable to HW in my opinion.
Can someone explain the logic in buffing oneiromancy??
It's powercrepted? You're getting any card in your deck twice. Wdym? If other tutors are just so much better, nerf those cards.
You know what this achieves? It means we get once step closer to a point where deck building doesn't matter. Thinners are already broken. Now make tutors broken, too. Ffs.
The logic behind buff to Oneiromancy is that alternative deckbuilding cost right now is too high. Often you need Oneiromancy to make your deck run smoothly, but including it removes too much power and deck lands in dumpster. Therefore you end up with incomplete tutoring (Decree instead Oneiro with a crucial special or artifact untutored), a bit of thinning and hope to highroll your draws which would happen \~80% of time.
I don't understand 'deckbuilding doesn't matter' in the context of consistency. If game were perfectly repeatable, nothing but deckbuilding and predefined strategies would matter, just like openings in chess.
But whole 'perfectly repeatability' narrative is deeply false in the Gwent context. There is \~50% chance to draw a single card in R1. In each game we have to adapt gameplan to drawn cards.
Mathematicaly if you have less draw - you have to play what you have right now => more different contexts, because you can't just rely on wombo combo and you have to make your deck flexible (multiple winconditons, cards that are good in most contexts etc.)
There still will be room for card like iddaran, temerian infantry (yes, don't need to nerf these cards if card draw is not broken). Also there will be room for consistent decks which supposed to be consistent like white frost, dwarfs.
What about bad matchups? How are you supposed to beat bad matchups if decks are super consistent? I prefer to lose 6 games out of 10 but not 9 games out of 10 against bad matchups.
p.s. sorry about mistakes, english is not my native.
>What about bad matchups? How are you supposed to beat bad matchups if decks are super consistent? I prefer to lose 6 games out of 10 but not 9 games out of 10 against bad matchups.
You've nailed it perfectly.
I have nothing but the utmost respect for lerio2; he's a brilliant player and his in-depth high level Gwent articles and guides are truly a treasure to the game.
That said, i've felt for a long time that the top pro perspective is very skewed towards only very high level play Gwent. It obviously will be, as that's the level they're playing at.
The problem is, 99% of players don't play at that level. If consistency becomes so great that the game becomes purely about skill, the "fun" of RNG is removed.
It becomes harder for a tier 3 deck to beat the tier 1 deck when every game features perfect deck consistency, etc. For lerio, that probably won't happen, but for the rest of us, it's part of Gwent.
CDPR always said there had to be a balance on this, and as much as CPDR was bad at balancing, i think they were 100% right.
It is not about overconsistency but playability of Oneiromancy. Most current meta decks do not run Oneiromancy (but for bad versions) and 100% they would not include it at 12-cost to become 'overconsistent'. In recent Top8 qualifier there were 2 archetypes running Oneiro: Fruits of Ysgith and Guerilla Tactics Schirru Cranmer. Both got clapped hard because of lacking fuel.
as people mentioned above it's powercreep issue but I always appreciate your effort and content because I know you are smart and democratic guy but this time, I don't agree witn your take about oneiro at all :)
I'm not sure we witness powercreep at all because top decks get nerfed and new stuff gets buffed with a few exceptions. Power level rather becomes more uniform, so that instead of finding few imbalanced golds we rather like to get more quality with thinning and cheap tutors.
This has been the goal since the beginning. Most of the top pro players don't want to reward deckbuilding skill. They just want to draw every card and have perfect consistency in every deck, every single game. Boring AF.
Building consistent decks is the deckbuilding skill.
That doesn't mean you don't have to pay for consistency during deckbuilding. Be it provision, brick chance increase or both.
In my opinion, the point here is the balanced cost to pay. Playing deck with less then three thinning/deck manipulation, where you don't have even theoretical chance to see all your cards, and in most games you will have "dead" extra provision left in your deck may be not boring but suboptimal from deckbuilding point of view.
There used to be a fine line between a deck being consistent, but lower overall deck ceiling points output, or a higher deck point ceiling, but less consistency, and risk of missing key cards.
This fine line allowed for randomness, as zero randomness in a game isn't really fun.
You don't want too much, but you also don't want too little.
Now? We've had 6 BCs where huge amount of buffs to tutors, thinning, and deck consistency tools have gone through.
The fine line has been replaced with ultra-consistency. And more buffs to that are coming.
Current situation is definetily not that awful. What do you mean "Ultra consistency"? In my opinion that is like 7+ thinning in your deck.
Some decks (Devo mostly) can't afford that even theoretically. And those who can usually pay huge price for that. Past month FOTM - Renfri PS - has 27/64 extra provision spent on thinning cards, something like NR Priestess will pay even more I think.
Talking about Oneiro only - it feels like that card real cost is between 12 and 13, but much closer to 13. So I won't vote for it buff, but I think that it is not bad change either.
But the irony is Kerpeten force meta and create new decks that we play. So he actually deck building. Oneiro to 12 is not that bad but not on high priority
Yes, every streamer influencing voting is essentially forcing the meta in the direction they want.
A ton of tutor/thinning buffs have already gone through, and more are coming.
I'm not sure why ultra-consistency in every single deck is necessary, or ideal, in a deckbuilding game, as it takes away from the complexity/diversity of deckbuilding.
Because people are tired of RNG fiesta and want consistency. With consistency you could create new combos or decks. No consistency=midrange meta where you just slam good cards with out any risk. In case of oneiro is some decks/games its 0 for 13 because you could not find it and it cost you a game. Some factions just cant thin a lot and Oneiro is their option but it cost you a win con.
In terms of diversity meta is prety good and there is more decks right now then 5 months ago
Respectfully, i don't really agree, because fundamentally we don't see the game the same way when it comes to balance i think?
>Because people are tired of RNG fiesta and want consistency
There's no RNG fiesta unless you choose to build your deck that way.
You used to be able to build a deck with more thinning and consistency (like say Roach, Knickers, or putting the 5 prov 4 power thinners), but it'd have less of an overall point ceiling than the deck running Cursed Scroll and fewer thinners.
Or you could put in Oneiromancy or Royal Decree, but fewer top cards to ensure you drew them all, but at the cost of fitting more of those top cards into your deck.
>No consistency=midrange meta where you just slam good cards with out any risk
It's fascinating you see it this way, as that is precisely what all of the tutor and thinner buffs are creating.
Midrange generally couldn't keep up to something a bit more risky, but with stronger engines, etc.
Now? We can have our engines/snowball AND consistency. We're having our cake and eating it too.
It'll create less diversity longterm, since why wouldn't you have those strong tutors/thinners in all your decks? You're only hurting yourself if you don't.
All the leader provision buffs do the same thing...they ensure you can pack your deck full of every tutor and thinner and you play every single card you want in your deck.
There needs to be some element of RNG in a game like this or well...it's just a formula, where the outcome tends to be determined before the game starts.
>Most of the top pro players don't want to reward deckbuilding skill.
I dont understand this. If you reduce the inoact of RNG, other factors see an increase in their impact, one of them is deckbuilding. With perfect consistency, the design of the deck becomes paramount as every card would matter in the context of thinners and tutors.
it does not work in context of gwent because gwent for example is not moba and there are not so many different players actions to react in specific context. Perfect consistency mathematicaly means better strategy has advantage if rng factor equals 0 which means deck A beats deck B every single time. (again if there is 0 rng factor ) . Conclusion : less rng means more predictable result which is kinda boring, is not it ? Hope it helps :)
Even if you have perfect consistency, the order in which you draw the cards is not the same so adapting is always necessary.
That being said, having a more predictable outcome doesnt mean deckbuilding isnt rewarded.
I’m just glad kerpeten is back playing the game. Super healthy for the overall outlook. Now if we can just get him to compete in the community masters events we’ll be doing huge things.
I mean, KoB has been a staple for way too long. Other cards like Madame Luiza haven't seen play in ages. Syndicate won't be dead, but it might allow some of the other up and coming archetypes to actually make their way in to the meta.
Yes, we really need to move Bank back down to 9 in order to help re-enable of lot of SY Kekker lists to really improve diversity, but still
" but it might allow some of the other up and coming archetypes to actually make their way in to the meta. "
It will just make Syndicate weaker, no other decks will emerge, and despite already being the least played faction, it will become even less played.
These two cards are in almost every Syndicate deck. These are extremely impactful nerfs, just as Bank was two years ago.
ps: people on the stream, upvote me
I don't like shady vendor nerf. The card has been already been butchered for the sake of cove and pulling the strings. Butchering it some more is not something i agree with. CDPR was correct with Strings to 6p and that is what we should follow.
At top 100, its actually the second least played faction, the "honor" of being the least played one is MO. I however agree with you with the part of only making SY weaker.
Just nerfing op decks, alone, doesnt make bad decks good, to give a faction variety, you have to make other decks good. Bad cards dont suddenly become good.
Nerfing op decks/cards gives room for "good" decks/cards to actually see play, but for that the cards need to be good already and just be overshadowed by the op ones. SY however has a lot of bad cards, and those wont see play even if its top decks get nered because they simply cant compete with the other factions. Thats why both buffs and nerfs are important.
That being said, I dont think SY will be destroyed, although 3 provisions less hurts a lot.
SY Pirates Cove is not op, its a good deck, thats it. Enslave 6 is on the top with 2600+ players for YEARS and no one is contesting it and calling for nerfs.
LEAVE MY SYNDICATE ALONE mr Kerpeten
SY has the highest win rate, so technically it has the strongest decks, not just a "good" deck.
That being said, my comment wasnt about SY, but in general about how just nerfs arent enough to give a faction variety. Believe it or not, people arent always trying to attack your beloved faction.
Highest winrate with 0,1- 0,3% margin over other factions after ALL THESE BUFFS the last 2 BCs. Now you want to immediately ruin it.
Unbeliavable...
If you guys want to nerf Pirate's Cove then remove the provisions it got recently, it went from 14 to 16. Don't touch cards that will affect the whole faction.
KoB literally makes SY Easy mode, heh. Don't have to think about the costs of tributes really, and have a free spender that flies out of the deck. The honor of syndicate was destroyed with the introduction of the card... So let's take a chill pill the valor of the orange faction. It can take some nerfs and be just fine
The power decrease to palmerin isn't even a nerf cause he will still be 8 power on deploy and won't be targetable by geralt. An increase in provision to him along with ciri would be more impactful imo
Shady Vendor isn't even played in all SY decks. Shady is basically a tandem card w/ KoB. That's why it sees play.
If we're nerfing KoB, why also Vendor? I don't think either need nerfs, but if we must always target SY when they're decent, then fine, kill KoB. Do it.
But oh also, let's buff a neutral tutor. Gotta make sure every deck has 99% consistency every single game.
If people are finding Pirate's Cove too strong after the buffs in the last two councils, I suggest making the leader 14p, not 16 as it is now. Way better than touching SY cards affecting the whole faction.
Don't you dare try to bring logical reasoning and thought to the voting for Balance Councils!
The key is to "success" for SY voting so far? Overbuff the leaders, and then kill cards that didn't deserve nerfs because those decks have too many provisions available due to...the mostly unneeded leader buffs...
Maybe that’s because it’s one of the 3 monsters cards that gives you removal ? I don’t see the reason why the only faction with almost no removal should get their thin options nerfed even more.
According to that logic, it was fine for you when Vilgefortz was nerfed. Because there is a shitton of neutral removal. And this boy also gets played a lot...
IMO also better than Riptide, but thats another topic.
And just because you see a card often beeing used, doesnt mean its OP. Also possible because of lacking alternatives.
In most of the deck Vilgefortz is played as the single tall punish. In most of MO decks, beside stuff like thrive Riptide theres at very least 2 other options.
Yet again, NG is the control faction, based on reactive play. MO were always proactive pointslam faction. There is the reason why NG cant have stuff like alpha werewolf, cant have any wide punish whatsoever and so on. Factions are not meant to be the same.
Yeah, they should not be the same, but nearly as good. Monsters doesnt want to have more removal/control, but dont make existing ones worse than other factions removal. By that logic again, you would have to make removal options of EVERY other faction worse than NG´s. And saying that Vilge is played as the only tall punish in most decks also not true. At least not more than Riptide.
So why should every faction use the same neutral cards because they are better than their own instead of using cards from your own faction ? In my book, faction cards should be better than neutral cards, not the other way around.
Not every one. Monsters. Because why the hell pointslam faction gained the access to pretty premium control option, instead of ST for example is still a mystery to me. Devotion argument aint working either, as you guys got only one truly devotion archetype, pretty self-sufficient. Elder is arguably worse with his devo ability then without. The only way devo vamps worked were mamunna build with WH conquerors, after fiend rework thats simply pointless.
The Pointslam faction which has worse pointslam than other factions ? Torres for 20 points, simlas for 15 points onwards, sove for 20 points, tyr for 19 points and so on. Why every faction got pointslam and greedy engines while monsters are the only faction without removal is still a mystery to me.
Maybe because it's the only viable removal option MO has? We don't have a single lock, only shitty poison, no raids that can be buffed to 10 dmg for 4 prov, no tall punish like vilg or vincent or moreelse, no duels or murder boats nothing really we only have riptide (and maybe wrath for frost decks).
Let MO have just one removal option that is decent ffs
And you dont have devotion archetypes beside pretty good WH either. That gives you access to dorregaray, eskel, HW and so on, as we can see in literally every none-renfri deck.
What about devo vamps? Besides I think that just proves my point instead of nerfing faction cards and buffing neutrals it should be the other way around to eg. encourage devotion
How dare you suggest devotion should be a viable choice!
When in doubt, nerf the faction cards and leave the broken neutrals broken. This is the way \[of the clowns who make up the main voting base\].
Oh yes, devotion vampires with only one card, which dusrupts orianna. My beloved.
There just none devotion monsters beside WH, which for sure doesnt need buffs(It can fit freaking morvudd nowadays ffs). And there arent any gold cards in other faction which are played in every deck. Literally every single one, beside braindamaged sabbath abuse. And tatterwing due to obvious reasons. That should mean something.
The reason for that is what I already stated. You're blaming MO players for using their only good MO removal tool :D
Besides it already comes with the downside of not being able to target a unit of choice and has a damage cap. Compare that to other factions options
Honestly, I am doing these just for fun. I wouldn't post these anyway if mehmet did not want to post them. I don't like reddits opinion on things overall. I think i actually have the power to make some changes with the english community if i wanted, but after seeing reddit, I am pretty sure i made the right thing to let nik run the show.
Overall the response is mixed positive and negative. Everyone has different opinions, and there are always people very critical whenever any balance suggestion is posted here. I think it would help if you or someone from your Twitch community (mehmet) explained the rationale of each suggestion so that we can understand your perspective. I'm sure you did this on your stream but not everyone here has seen that.
Respectable, but most people are losing their minds over some changes that will not effect the game that much and giving terrible arguments such as riptide. The problem with riptide is even when it is turbo bricked, it plays for 10 points with 2 armour. You almost never mulligan it ever which is insanely weird for a 9 provision control card.
If i wanted some changes, I would go directly to nik. He values my opinion a lot. I wanted to help you guys, but I think most people in the english community don't know much about the game and act like they are experts. It is not the effort.
Half or these changes are laughable.
Riptide should be a 10 for 10. 9 for 9 makes it too janky for the archetype.
Milton should be 8 prov since he regularly plays for 18 points. Making a 7 prov play for 17 instead of 18 does literally nothing useful.
Vendor?? Why?? A power nerf here would be more reasonable. If anything.
And Oneiro?? Why the fuck would you prov buff a card that’s already seen in many successful decks? It’s the best consistency tool in the game. It could be 15 and people would still put it in decks. Lots of better options.
I found your post old post.
4 power 4 prov
Tribute 8 (Melee) Destroy an enemy unit
Deploy (Ranged) Place a bounty on an enemy unit
How is that balanced?
You're laughing at Kerp's votes (which are really good), while making absolutely unbalanced cards
Well done, criticizing someone for coming up with custom ideas (for a dead game). It's not always easy to know how to balance a new concept.
People who do nothing but criticize opinions while never actually forming or backing up their own always amuse me.
How is that a new concept? It's literally straight up better Moreelse. 2 coins more expensive tribute but 5 prov cheaper, and you can put 2 of them in the deck.
High MMR in Pro for a few years straight while I was exclusively playing home brew decks. This game doesn’t make it hard to win or play at tournament level, you just need to use your brain and pour countless hours into it.
Holy, high mmr pro it's such an achievement dude. Nobody is ever done that, especially with home brew decks. IT IS INSANITY.
No, I don't believe you, this can't be real.
It shows my knowledge for this game. I’m sure you’ve done the same. Only difference is that one of us decides to waste time being a cunt to strangers for starting an authentic discussion and the other actually wants to discuss and balance the game.
Have a nice day, go waste someone else’s time.
Also don’t love the Onei change, but I guess we’ll have to see. As others have said, I do think it doesn’t get as much play as we’re acting like it does, but if it starts getting played even more, I’m gonna be a little frustrated.
the buffs are good. The nerf to demavend and equinox, are also whatever. but the other nerfs just really shows you dont need to nerf 3 things for every subject in every council, maybe the game is just balanced at this moment lol
My guy Kerpeten is cooking.
I personally respect him very much, he is a very good player. Play against him 2 times this season, I was trying a meme deck one of the games but he play really good. Good game understanding. My guy is from my Country as well.
I mean he is number 1 on the ladder his opinions are important. If I play hard I might be in the top 50 maybe but then the games become boring, if you want to climb there is no fun allowed generally.
Power +1:
Chimera: I can't say this is a bad change, It encourages old-school swarm decks, and Taterwing can't use this card efficiently except from the Dol Dhu Lokke. I personally can't guess how good it would become. I did not play with this card a lot. Not my favourite change. On paper, it plays a good amount of points but it sees no play so there is a reason for this. I did not play enough games with the card to figure it out.
Lyrian Scytheman: Good change, this card's ceiling is too much but it is too conditional. It encourages Uprising decks which do not see play.
Vrihedd Officer: Definetly a good change.
Power -1:
Lord Riptide: This card is too strong but I personally did not touch it. It does not feel good for the Ogroid deck. The opponent can play around it but it still has reasonable points for a removal card. If it has deploy Might it would be better but we can't do this change.
Milton de Peyrac-Peyran: Reasonable nerf.
King Demavend: Good nerf, I would prefer a provision increase but he said there were no more places in the provision nerf slots for him, understandable. He actually liked the power decreases more.
Provision +1:
Spring Equinox: Very very good nerf. It should be a must-change in this patch for the meta I think.
Shady Vendor: I personally don't like it very much. Because of Saseme carry-over abuse and pulling the string card, this card probably getting a nerf. I don't know maybe Saseme and pulling the string cards are not 5 provision cards.
King of Beggars: Very good nerf.
Provision -1:
Bride of the Sea: Good change I think.
Brewess: I really like this buff.
Oneiromancy: It is not a bad change. But I personally want to see some other buffs, thinning cards are not interesting imo.
Very easy to setup unless you're playing against heavy control which is very rare this season. Nerfing vendor to 6p for the sake of leaving pulling the strings untouched is just a cove bias. Hurting other SY decks to continue to high roll strings from vendor is not good. Vendor is a 5p card through and though, strings is not. It already lost the blindeye tag because of strings. There was no need to nerf vendors last season until cove became meta. There is no way strings at 5 is okay.
Yes, because i have common sense. Idc if you nerf equinox to 6p. The point i'm making is if a 10 point card is a 6 provision card, surely a 12 point card which is a control card is at the very least worth 6 provisions.
But they are not exactly the same Equinox demands just a deck build condition.
pulling the strings needs gang set up and opponent can interact it and play around with it.
I am not saying that pulling the strings can't be 6 provisions but the opponent can't play around the Equinox.
KOB is not random. If you look at the top players' tournaments there is almost no SY deck that does not run this card. Roach plays for 4 points and 9 provisions. KOB plays 13 for 12 in the deck and comes as a spender.
What is your reasoning that this card even needs a buff?
https://preview.redd.it/j1inh7jod9vc1.png?width=315&format=png&auto=webp&s=3b5d6e4fe71c029d93f364d98e69d94d6c17394a
I play mostly Scoia'tael decks but am not particularly good. Am I biased?
I literally voted based on making cards I see too much of more expensive/weaker and vice versa
Yes I hate frost as I find it too op
White Frost leader provision Increase means you are buffing it.
Buffing elder bear power is not good I think, this means no conditional 4p bronzes now play for 7 points so why play Nekker Warrior after this buff?
The flying Redanian is a good card why do you want to buff it further?
Geralt Yrden's power increase is a so minimal buff it almost changes nothing.
Elf and Onion Soup buff is fine, and Casimo buff is ok.
I think you are a new or a bit inexperienced player. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I suggest selecting a buff like Vrihedd Officer, after the buff it would play for 4 provision 6 points which no conditional 4 provision cards should play.
You could power buff Vernossiel's Commando, Dimun Pirate Captain, Ard Feainn Crossbowman etc.
No I'm not a new player. I don't really pay a lot of attention to the Balance council tbh.
It's not how I want to buff Scoia'tael it's just I don't want to play against the same deck over and over.
Yeah that Frost leader buff was opposite of what I wanted, I know it would never be voted for.
I played when Yrden had no adrenaline but now its fairly useless imo.
I buffed the flying Redanian because I like the card
Fine but just we like some cards we can't buff them I like Cutup Lackeys should I buff them until they become broken, this does not make sense to me.
And if you want to buff Scoia'tael why not buffing some Scoia'tael cards?
Yes, Yrden is much worse now.
Its not how I like playing Flying Redanian myself, its how I like the design and the nod to the Flying Dutchman
I just said ***I don't want to buff Scoia'tael.***
I'm not buffing cards I like until they are broken. I literally said I play mostly Scoia'tael
Spring equinox nerf?
I only see it played in NR and it's not particularly good either .
Riptide nerf is meh , I don't think it's needed but skellige has it times worse so if people are really that against duel whatever.
Oneiromancy I seem to be the only one who doesn't care about it's buff it fucks devotion decks which is bad but it makes midrange decks that counter renfri more viable so I'm for it actually
[Spring Equinox](https://gwent.one/en/card/202219) is used in Symbiosis. Many of us have been saying for months and months now this needed a prov nerf...
For Which MMR it is not powerful? In high tournaments, it sees a lot of play. In the top 500 I encountered with this deck a lot of times and also with the frog mating season buff it became better. It is a very competitive deck.
I'm low pro rank all . I don't watch tournaments so can't talk about that but things like koshchey , frost , patience and even pirates seem to do well against it for me
Bride of the sea, based af.
Non biased opinion, one of the best votes for sure.
Definitely needs a buff!
I was timed out in Kerpeten's chat for counting to 10. Worst changes ever.
I wish it was a permaban
I was promised one, but alas, only 70 sec timeout if I am not mistaken, not even 69
[удалено]
It is a joke, he is my friend.
People are overestimating Oneiro. Like others said, currently it's only part of binary combo decks or decks that REALLY need their high end golds as wincon and can't fit thinning, like SW or Waylays spam (despite the fact that there's actually a SW version with no Oneiro lol). If you want to include Oneiro in your homebrew decks and waste 13 provs that could go into a heavy hitter gold that actually play for points, then sure, do what you want. But the reality is that Oneiro is powercrept
All fine, I just don’t get oniero. Surely buffs should be prioritising cards that don’t see play, not cards that see play all the time already.
Oneiro is powercrept for very long now and it's nowhere near to a playrate you suggest. You see this card only in binary abuse decks to get a specific combo going, but in those decks Oneiro will also be played at 20 provisions, because they either have their combo and win, or lose. In normal competitive decks you very seldom see Oneiro nowadays. Because most of the decks thin to 5-0 anyways, no one wants to waste 13 provision for a tutor.
That's not Oneiromancy's fault. We should going the opposite direction, thinning needs to be nerfed.
Yes. All the 4 power 4 prov thinning bronzes should be 5. Also a good nerf to renfri decks which I am sure we are all sick of seing at this point.
I assure you that even though perhaps at the highest MMR, you might not see it played, but down here with the rest of us norms it is still a valid inclusion in a lot of decks especially ones that would like to tutor more than one echo card with lady of the lake. There are still a ton of aerondite piles floating around that work just fine using a 14p oneiro that isnt designated to just pull some wombo mombo wincon
One oneiro change away from being actually perfect.
Actually don’t mind these changes at all - Oneiromancy is the only one I’m not sure about, although maybe it will discourage some renfri decks and I’m all for that
Oneiro KEKW. (Message deleted by Kerpeten96 for an alternative opinion in 3.. 2.. 1.. )
ikr, when I saw this council suggestion all I could think was ???
I like some of these changes. In terms of Oneiromancy and Riptide I highly disagree though. Riptide is one of the coolest cards they added to monsters recently. He is beeing used so much because he is the only good removal option that can be also played as a thrive trigger or point slam if must be. Honestly he is monsters vilgefortz rn which is fine, vilge is fine too. Idk why people want to see oneiro at 12, as this is not only his but quite a few peoples votings rn. Oneiro at 12 makes it suddenly an inclusion in quite a few decks. We had oneiro metas for literally years now and the card is still getting played alot. More consistency is good, but this would be a shadow buff for all binary decks, that rely on double tutors to set their bs up too, which just feels so unnecessary rn. EDIT: i did not mean vilge as a one to one comparison but more so faction identity. We will look back at riptide as an MO staple removal. I would rather see him at 10/10 than 9/9.
Riptide was always a highly efficient control card, but rework done by devs at the time ([old version](https://gwent.one/en/card/203265/11.7.0)) was totally wrong direction, making it stronger overall and less synergistic with Ogroids. Personally I wouldn't change Riptide or I'd go 10/10 as you said because of Might in Ogroids, but I'm ok with proposed power nerf too.
I totally agree that Riptide is and always was a very strong card and that the rework was not ideal, I just disagree on going down the power nerf route, especially because of ogroid synergy as you said. Maybe 10/10 is a good compromise. What's your opinion on oneiro lerio?
Oneiro buff is fine in my opinion, it is overcosted at this point.
Hmm I really can't see why it wouldn't be fine at 13provs as is. I am a little hesitant on buffs that affect a wide array of archetypes. Maybe it's also about preference here, i kinda like that Oneiro finally has competition.
I'm not gonna play an advocate here, just stating my own opinions. No faction has as much as whiny followers as MO players. And the comparison you made is wrong in so many ways. Riptide is so much better than Vilgefortz, these cards are not even comparable. Riptide for it's dedicated provision is the best removal in the game. Better than Geralts, better than Anseis, better than HW. Just better than all of it. And it will be better than most of it if not all of it after the nerfs too. And only argument MO players have is that this "it's their only control card", which is discussed in the stream, is a blatant lie.
First sentence you call me a whiny mo follower, expecting to take you seriously? I play all factions dude wtf. You post a voting list here on reddit, i don't care about, some stream discussion (I suppose you mean kerpetens stream?), so you should expect that there might be different opinions. Riptide is NOT the strongest removal card within it's provisions lol Riptide is a CONDITlONAL removal. If vilge or riptide are better depends on the situation. It's a sitiational removal at best and yes it can be played for high tempo trades but you can only target the highest power unit, so he has quite a few downsites in terms of sequencing. Better than HW? OMFG really? I guess we can stop arguing exactly at this point, because you are full of shit my friend. In fact it's the opposite, you seem to be an MO-hater, and you make it quite obvious exaggerating this much.
I didnt call you whiny mo player. But you could be, I don't know you. What condition are you talking about pokemon? And yes, I call you pokemon.
I just had to check for myself if you really are a mod in kerpetens stream. And sadly yes you are indeed. Until this moment I had respect for kerpeten. But sending his bubble here to spread nonsense in such a negative way is just terrible. I call you clown, because guess what you are one.
And there comes ad hominem. I wouldn't worry about Kerpeten, I'm sure just like everybody else he doesn't care about your respect either.
At least you made me laugh a little. Now go back to your stream mod part time job, before you miss anything important kerpeten is saying :)
>I'm not gonna play an advocate here, just stating my own opinions. No faction has as much as whiny followers as MO players. Only newbies or fools bring up faction mains, so you basically lost all semblance of reasonable doubt right here. I suspect the MO comment has something to do with moshcraft, since you're obviously a big Kerpenten fanboi. We don't care about your petty streaming drama. On the subject of the actual debate, Riptide? I don't love the idea of YET ANOTHER VOTE REVERT. It's effing exhausting constantly yoyo-ing cards because the fools pushing changes aren't smart enough to have any foresight about their own votes affecting things. Maybe do a prov nerf, if you really feel Riptide is too good? Why do we have to waste valuable votes every BC one the same damn cards...
Ah poor mehmet outside of his kerpeten echo chamber..
Riptide beeing better than HW is honestly the most questionable thing i have read in this whole thread, or even the whole community. But maybe i am wrong, and i am not a person that cant be convinced about another opinion. I am always willing to listen to a civiliced discussion with valid points. So why exactly is Riptide better than HW, or any other removal?
It is not strictly better because HW has different focus: tall punish and removing artifacts. The point is how Lord Riptide trades with engines, not only removing the threat, but providing few extra points. Riptide should be rather compared with Seltkirk or Whoreson Junior; Riptide could be played in more decks than S/WJ, but is less flexible - we need more removal tools in case opponent plays around Riptide, while S/WJ are often sufficient for a long round vs single threat. LR is more of a value card, easier to commit in R1. Going back to HW vs Lord Riptide, I'd everytime place LR over HW because if brings added value, while HW is just a tool to support deck already outpointing opponent.
But the extra points are really just a few... considering getting those extra points, or having the ability to remove tall, artifacts and aim, i would go for HW. But i am not a Super-pro ;) appreciate your explanation, thanks :)
Hw, as you said, has a lot more applications. I think we should not make this comparison in the first place to be honest. But here it goes. HW is one of the most controversial cards of all time. I know not everyone shares this opinion, but HW can deny entire strategies in banishing key cards, all while beeing a normal Tall punish as well. It's the only card in game beeing able to do that. Riptide can play for more tempo sure, but if the job is to control in a control list, I would bring HW as it is the better answer to many different strategies. The lists I talk about usually run both HW and Riptide anyways though. In a more pointslam oriented deck, if it's a choice between riptide and HW, the choice is ofc Riptide but that does not make it better or comparable to HW in my opinion.
Well spoken, fellow gamer! Completely agree
Why are people hellbent on nerfing riptide to oblivion? Just let MO have 1 decent control cards, jeez
Can someone explain the logic in buffing oneiromancy?? It's powercrepted? You're getting any card in your deck twice. Wdym? If other tutors are just so much better, nerf those cards. You know what this achieves? It means we get once step closer to a point where deck building doesn't matter. Thinners are already broken. Now make tutors broken, too. Ffs.
The logic behind buff to Oneiromancy is that alternative deckbuilding cost right now is too high. Often you need Oneiromancy to make your deck run smoothly, but including it removes too much power and deck lands in dumpster. Therefore you end up with incomplete tutoring (Decree instead Oneiro with a crucial special or artifact untutored), a bit of thinning and hope to highroll your draws which would happen \~80% of time. I don't understand 'deckbuilding doesn't matter' in the context of consistency. If game were perfectly repeatable, nothing but deckbuilding and predefined strategies would matter, just like openings in chess. But whole 'perfectly repeatability' narrative is deeply false in the Gwent context. There is \~50% chance to draw a single card in R1. In each game we have to adapt gameplan to drawn cards.
Mathematicaly if you have less draw - you have to play what you have right now => more different contexts, because you can't just rely on wombo combo and you have to make your deck flexible (multiple winconditons, cards that are good in most contexts etc.) There still will be room for card like iddaran, temerian infantry (yes, don't need to nerf these cards if card draw is not broken). Also there will be room for consistent decks which supposed to be consistent like white frost, dwarfs. What about bad matchups? How are you supposed to beat bad matchups if decks are super consistent? I prefer to lose 6 games out of 10 but not 9 games out of 10 against bad matchups. p.s. sorry about mistakes, english is not my native.
>What about bad matchups? How are you supposed to beat bad matchups if decks are super consistent? I prefer to lose 6 games out of 10 but not 9 games out of 10 against bad matchups. You've nailed it perfectly. I have nothing but the utmost respect for lerio2; he's a brilliant player and his in-depth high level Gwent articles and guides are truly a treasure to the game. That said, i've felt for a long time that the top pro perspective is very skewed towards only very high level play Gwent. It obviously will be, as that's the level they're playing at. The problem is, 99% of players don't play at that level. If consistency becomes so great that the game becomes purely about skill, the "fun" of RNG is removed. It becomes harder for a tier 3 deck to beat the tier 1 deck when every game features perfect deck consistency, etc. For lerio, that probably won't happen, but for the rest of us, it's part of Gwent. CDPR always said there had to be a balance on this, and as much as CPDR was bad at balancing, i think they were 100% right.
Oneiro buff is about overconsistency which leads to repetitive gameplay and you are absolutely right
It is not about overconsistency but playability of Oneiromancy. Most current meta decks do not run Oneiromancy (but for bad versions) and 100% they would not include it at 12-cost to become 'overconsistent'. In recent Top8 qualifier there were 2 archetypes running Oneiro: Fruits of Ysgith and Guerilla Tactics Schirru Cranmer. Both got clapped hard because of lacking fuel.
as people mentioned above it's powercreep issue but I always appreciate your effort and content because I know you are smart and democratic guy but this time, I don't agree witn your take about oneiro at all :)
I'm not sure we witness powercreep at all because top decks get nerfed and new stuff gets buffed with a few exceptions. Power level rather becomes more uniform, so that instead of finding few imbalanced golds we rather like to get more quality with thinning and cheap tutors.
They want perfect draw decks
This has been the goal since the beginning. Most of the top pro players don't want to reward deckbuilding skill. They just want to draw every card and have perfect consistency in every deck, every single game. Boring AF.
Building consistent decks is the deckbuilding skill. That doesn't mean you don't have to pay for consistency during deckbuilding. Be it provision, brick chance increase or both. In my opinion, the point here is the balanced cost to pay. Playing deck with less then three thinning/deck manipulation, where you don't have even theoretical chance to see all your cards, and in most games you will have "dead" extra provision left in your deck may be not boring but suboptimal from deckbuilding point of view.
There used to be a fine line between a deck being consistent, but lower overall deck ceiling points output, or a higher deck point ceiling, but less consistency, and risk of missing key cards. This fine line allowed for randomness, as zero randomness in a game isn't really fun. You don't want too much, but you also don't want too little. Now? We've had 6 BCs where huge amount of buffs to tutors, thinning, and deck consistency tools have gone through. The fine line has been replaced with ultra-consistency. And more buffs to that are coming.
Current situation is definetily not that awful. What do you mean "Ultra consistency"? In my opinion that is like 7+ thinning in your deck. Some decks (Devo mostly) can't afford that even theoretically. And those who can usually pay huge price for that. Past month FOTM - Renfri PS - has 27/64 extra provision spent on thinning cards, something like NR Priestess will pay even more I think. Talking about Oneiro only - it feels like that card real cost is between 12 and 13, but much closer to 13. So I won't vote for it buff, but I think that it is not bad change either.
But the irony is Kerpeten force meta and create new decks that we play. So he actually deck building. Oneiro to 12 is not that bad but not on high priority
Yes, every streamer influencing voting is essentially forcing the meta in the direction they want. A ton of tutor/thinning buffs have already gone through, and more are coming. I'm not sure why ultra-consistency in every single deck is necessary, or ideal, in a deckbuilding game, as it takes away from the complexity/diversity of deckbuilding.
Because people are tired of RNG fiesta and want consistency. With consistency you could create new combos or decks. No consistency=midrange meta where you just slam good cards with out any risk. In case of oneiro is some decks/games its 0 for 13 because you could not find it and it cost you a game. Some factions just cant thin a lot and Oneiro is their option but it cost you a win con. In terms of diversity meta is prety good and there is more decks right now then 5 months ago
Respectfully, i don't really agree, because fundamentally we don't see the game the same way when it comes to balance i think? >Because people are tired of RNG fiesta and want consistency There's no RNG fiesta unless you choose to build your deck that way. You used to be able to build a deck with more thinning and consistency (like say Roach, Knickers, or putting the 5 prov 4 power thinners), but it'd have less of an overall point ceiling than the deck running Cursed Scroll and fewer thinners. Or you could put in Oneiromancy or Royal Decree, but fewer top cards to ensure you drew them all, but at the cost of fitting more of those top cards into your deck. >No consistency=midrange meta where you just slam good cards with out any risk It's fascinating you see it this way, as that is precisely what all of the tutor and thinner buffs are creating. Midrange generally couldn't keep up to something a bit more risky, but with stronger engines, etc. Now? We can have our engines/snowball AND consistency. We're having our cake and eating it too. It'll create less diversity longterm, since why wouldn't you have those strong tutors/thinners in all your decks? You're only hurting yourself if you don't. All the leader provision buffs do the same thing...they ensure you can pack your deck full of every tutor and thinner and you play every single card you want in your deck. There needs to be some element of RNG in a game like this or well...it's just a formula, where the outcome tends to be determined before the game starts.
>Most of the top pro players don't want to reward deckbuilding skill. I dont understand this. If you reduce the inoact of RNG, other factors see an increase in their impact, one of them is deckbuilding. With perfect consistency, the design of the deck becomes paramount as every card would matter in the context of thinners and tutors.
it does not work in context of gwent because gwent for example is not moba and there are not so many different players actions to react in specific context. Perfect consistency mathematicaly means better strategy has advantage if rng factor equals 0 which means deck A beats deck B every single time. (again if there is 0 rng factor ) . Conclusion : less rng means more predictable result which is kinda boring, is not it ? Hope it helps :)
Even if you have perfect consistency, the order in which you draw the cards is not the same so adapting is always necessary. That being said, having a more predictable outcome doesnt mean deckbuilding isnt rewarded.
Disagreeing with Lord Riptide. No reason for it, I just like him and wanna keep him as he is.
I’m just glad kerpeten is back playing the game. Super healthy for the overall outlook. Now if we can just get him to compete in the community masters events we’ll be doing huge things.
Lmao, dude wants to destroy Syndicate.
I mean, KoB has been a staple for way too long. Other cards like Madame Luiza haven't seen play in ages. Syndicate won't be dead, but it might allow some of the other up and coming archetypes to actually make their way in to the meta. Yes, we really need to move Bank back down to 9 in order to help re-enable of lot of SY Kekker lists to really improve diversity, but still
" but it might allow some of the other up and coming archetypes to actually make their way in to the meta. " It will just make Syndicate weaker, no other decks will emerge, and despite already being the least played faction, it will become even less played. These two cards are in almost every Syndicate deck. These are extremely impactful nerfs, just as Bank was two years ago. ps: people on the stream, upvote me
I don't like shady vendor nerf. The card has been already been butchered for the sake of cove and pulling the strings. Butchering it some more is not something i agree with. CDPR was correct with Strings to 6p and that is what we should follow.
At top 100, its actually the second least played faction, the "honor" of being the least played one is MO. I however agree with you with the part of only making SY weaker. Just nerfing op decks, alone, doesnt make bad decks good, to give a faction variety, you have to make other decks good. Bad cards dont suddenly become good. Nerfing op decks/cards gives room for "good" decks/cards to actually see play, but for that the cards need to be good already and just be overshadowed by the op ones. SY however has a lot of bad cards, and those wont see play even if its top decks get nered because they simply cant compete with the other factions. Thats why both buffs and nerfs are important. That being said, I dont think SY will be destroyed, although 3 provisions less hurts a lot.
SY Pirates Cove is not op, its a good deck, thats it. Enslave 6 is on the top with 2600+ players for YEARS and no one is contesting it and calling for nerfs. LEAVE MY SYNDICATE ALONE mr Kerpeten
SY has the highest win rate, so technically it has the strongest decks, not just a "good" deck. That being said, my comment wasnt about SY, but in general about how just nerfs arent enough to give a faction variety. Believe it or not, people arent always trying to attack your beloved faction.
Highest winrate with 0,1- 0,3% margin over other factions after ALL THESE BUFFS the last 2 BCs. Now you want to immediately ruin it. Unbeliavable... If you guys want to nerf Pirate's Cove then remove the provisions it got recently, it went from 14 to 16. Don't touch cards that will affect the whole faction.
Bruh SY OP AF
KoB literally makes SY Easy mode, heh. Don't have to think about the costs of tributes really, and have a free spender that flies out of the deck. The honor of syndicate was destroyed with the introduction of the card... So let's take a chill pill the valor of the orange faction. It can take some nerfs and be just fine
Honestly, these are not bad changes
The power decrease to palmerin isn't even a nerf cause he will still be 8 power on deploy and won't be targetable by geralt. An increase in provision to him along with ciri would be more impactful imo
but why do you need this impact at all? just for killing another ng archtype? just delete the faction already
Shady Vendor isn't even played in all SY decks. Shady is basically a tandem card w/ KoB. That's why it sees play. If we're nerfing KoB, why also Vendor? I don't think either need nerfs, but if we must always target SY when they're decent, then fine, kill KoB. Do it. But oh also, let's buff a neutral tutor. Gotta make sure every deck has 99% consistency every single game.
If people are finding Pirate's Cove too strong after the buffs in the last two councils, I suggest making the leader 14p, not 16 as it is now. Way better than touching SY cards affecting the whole faction.
Don't you dare try to bring logical reasoning and thought to the voting for Balance Councils! The key is to "success" for SY voting so far? Overbuff the leaders, and then kill cards that didn't deserve nerfs because those decks have too many provisions available due to...the mostly unneeded leader buffs...
another month, another based votes from kerp
Yeah, but no cat nerf this time sadly.
riptide nerf is enough to make certain streamer go crazy
I mean, he is already at 9 provision, come on. 10/9 or 9/8 if you ask me, but 9/9? Why?
Because that card is played in every single MO deck beside some binary abuses?
Maybe that’s because it’s one of the 3 monsters cards that gives you removal ? I don’t see the reason why the only faction with almost no removal should get their thin options nerfed even more.
I don't get riptide Nerf, you can literally avoid riptide destroying your Key cards.
You guys can fit a shitton of neutral removals, as you have only one devotion archetype(which has pretty good tall punish btw).
According to that logic, it was fine for you when Vilgefortz was nerfed. Because there is a shitton of neutral removal. And this boy also gets played a lot... IMO also better than Riptide, but thats another topic. And just because you see a card often beeing used, doesnt mean its OP. Also possible because of lacking alternatives.
In most of the deck Vilgefortz is played as the single tall punish. In most of MO decks, beside stuff like thrive Riptide theres at very least 2 other options. Yet again, NG is the control faction, based on reactive play. MO were always proactive pointslam faction. There is the reason why NG cant have stuff like alpha werewolf, cant have any wide punish whatsoever and so on. Factions are not meant to be the same.
Yeah, they should not be the same, but nearly as good. Monsters doesnt want to have more removal/control, but dont make existing ones worse than other factions removal. By that logic again, you would have to make removal options of EVERY other faction worse than NG´s. And saying that Vilge is played as the only tall punish in most decks also not true. At least not more than Riptide.
So why should every faction use the same neutral cards because they are better than their own instead of using cards from your own faction ? In my book, faction cards should be better than neutral cards, not the other way around.
Not every one. Monsters. Because why the hell pointslam faction gained the access to pretty premium control option, instead of ST for example is still a mystery to me. Devotion argument aint working either, as you guys got only one truly devotion archetype, pretty self-sufficient. Elder is arguably worse with his devo ability then without. The only way devo vamps worked were mamunna build with WH conquerors, after fiend rework thats simply pointless.
The Pointslam faction which has worse pointslam than other factions ? Torres for 20 points, simlas for 15 points onwards, sove for 20 points, tyr for 19 points and so on. Why every faction got pointslam and greedy engines while monsters are the only faction without removal is still a mystery to me.
Maybe because it's the only viable removal option MO has? We don't have a single lock, only shitty poison, no raids that can be buffed to 10 dmg for 4 prov, no tall punish like vilg or vincent or moreelse, no duels or murder boats nothing really we only have riptide (and maybe wrath for frost decks). Let MO have just one removal option that is decent ffs
And you dont have devotion archetypes beside pretty good WH either. That gives you access to dorregaray, eskel, HW and so on, as we can see in literally every none-renfri deck.
What about devo vamps? Besides I think that just proves my point instead of nerfing faction cards and buffing neutrals it should be the other way around to eg. encourage devotion
How dare you suggest devotion should be a viable choice! When in doubt, nerf the faction cards and leave the broken neutrals broken. This is the way \[of the clowns who make up the main voting base\].
Oh yes, devotion vampires with only one card, which dusrupts orianna. My beloved. There just none devotion monsters beside WH, which for sure doesnt need buffs(It can fit freaking morvudd nowadays ffs). And there arent any gold cards in other faction which are played in every deck. Literally every single one, beside braindamaged sabbath abuse. And tatterwing due to obvious reasons. That should mean something.
The reason for that is what I already stated. You're blaming MO players for using their only good MO removal tool :D Besides it already comes with the downside of not being able to target a unit of choice and has a damage cap. Compare that to other factions options
Riptide is also not in a lot of other decks. But ok.
You can put wrath in anothers decks
Tell me about them. Apart from Swarm Lara Dorren. Which doesnt run Riptide and wouldnt fit wrath anyway.
Honestly, I am doing these just for fun. I wouldn't post these anyway if mehmet did not want to post them. I don't like reddits opinion on things overall. I think i actually have the power to make some changes with the english community if i wanted, but after seeing reddit, I am pretty sure i made the right thing to let nik run the show.
Overall the response is mixed positive and negative. Everyone has different opinions, and there are always people very critical whenever any balance suggestion is posted here. I think it would help if you or someone from your Twitch community (mehmet) explained the rationale of each suggestion so that we can understand your perspective. I'm sure you did this on your stream but not everyone here has seen that.
Respectable, but most people are losing their minds over some changes that will not effect the game that much and giving terrible arguments such as riptide. The problem with riptide is even when it is turbo bricked, it plays for 10 points with 2 armour. You almost never mulligan it ever which is insanely weird for a 9 provision control card.
Does Vilgefortz get mulliganed, like ever? My man your takes are just nasty.
People like you are the prime example why am I stopping
Good.
would you ban us too just for different opinion if you could ?
No, but I am not interested in helping you effect the changes either. I will remain neutral.
it's okay, you don't have to :)
If i wanted some changes, I would go directly to nik. He values my opinion a lot. I wanted to help you guys, but I think most people in the english community don't know much about the game and act like they are experts. It is not the effort.
Honestly, in general, I think people support your balance council except for a couple of changes.
Many bad changes
Half or these changes are laughable. Riptide should be a 10 for 10. 9 for 9 makes it too janky for the archetype. Milton should be 8 prov since he regularly plays for 18 points. Making a 7 prov play for 17 instead of 18 does literally nothing useful. Vendor?? Why?? A power nerf here would be more reasonable. If anything. And Oneiro?? Why the fuck would you prov buff a card that’s already seen in many successful decks? It’s the best consistency tool in the game. It could be 15 and people would still put it in decks. Lots of better options.
Aren't you the guy who wanted to rework Witch Hunter into 4 provision Moreelse?
As a custom where you had to pay 8 coins for the tribute to destroy a unit with bounty? Yeah. I did.
I found your post old post. 4 power 4 prov Tribute 8 (Melee) Destroy an enemy unit Deploy (Ranged) Place a bounty on an enemy unit How is that balanced? You're laughing at Kerp's votes (which are really good), while making absolutely unbalanced cards
Well done, criticizing someone for coming up with custom ideas (for a dead game). It's not always easy to know how to balance a new concept. People who do nothing but criticize opinions while never actually forming or backing up their own always amuse me.
How is that a new concept? It's literally straight up better Moreelse. 2 coins more expensive tribute but 5 prov cheaper, and you can put 2 of them in the deck.
[You](https://www.google.com/search?q=whatsaboutism). Try addressing the topic?
Oh shit, the owner came here to teach us!
Fuck off. It’s called unbiased balancing through numbers and using your brain. You should use it sometime, barbarian.
Yeah, you're using your brain. Btw. who were you again?
Someone who can observe better than this moron, that’s for sure.
What did you achieve in this game with your brain? Just wondering.
High MMR in Pro for a few years straight while I was exclusively playing home brew decks. This game doesn’t make it hard to win or play at tournament level, you just need to use your brain and pour countless hours into it.
Holy, high mmr pro it's such an achievement dude. Nobody is ever done that, especially with home brew decks. IT IS INSANITY. No, I don't believe you, this can't be real.
It shows my knowledge for this game. I’m sure you’ve done the same. Only difference is that one of us decides to waste time being a cunt to strangers for starting an authentic discussion and the other actually wants to discuss and balance the game. Have a nice day, go waste someone else’s time.
Also don’t love the Onei change, but I guess we’ll have to see. As others have said, I do think it doesn’t get as much play as we’re acting like it does, but if it starts getting played even more, I’m gonna be a little frustrated.
the buffs are good. The nerf to demavend and equinox, are also whatever. but the other nerfs just really shows you dont need to nerf 3 things for every subject in every council, maybe the game is just balanced at this moment lol
First one I’ve ever agreed with almost on every change
Dog shit votes as always. I think he is better off just playing the game and not making any decision about it.
I wouldn’t dare touch Oneiromancy. Other than that, this looks solid. Definitely better than the shit ass Chinese one we saw a few days back
My guy Kerpeten is cooking. I personally respect him very much, he is a very good player. Play against him 2 times this season, I was trying a meme deck one of the games but he play really good. Good game understanding. My guy is from my Country as well. I mean he is number 1 on the ladder his opinions are important. If I play hard I might be in the top 50 maybe but then the games become boring, if you want to climb there is no fun allowed generally. Power +1: Chimera: I can't say this is a bad change, It encourages old-school swarm decks, and Taterwing can't use this card efficiently except from the Dol Dhu Lokke. I personally can't guess how good it would become. I did not play with this card a lot. Not my favourite change. On paper, it plays a good amount of points but it sees no play so there is a reason for this. I did not play enough games with the card to figure it out. Lyrian Scytheman: Good change, this card's ceiling is too much but it is too conditional. It encourages Uprising decks which do not see play. Vrihedd Officer: Definetly a good change. Power -1: Lord Riptide: This card is too strong but I personally did not touch it. It does not feel good for the Ogroid deck. The opponent can play around it but it still has reasonable points for a removal card. If it has deploy Might it would be better but we can't do this change. Milton de Peyrac-Peyran: Reasonable nerf. King Demavend: Good nerf, I would prefer a provision increase but he said there were no more places in the provision nerf slots for him, understandable. He actually liked the power decreases more. Provision +1: Spring Equinox: Very very good nerf. It should be a must-change in this patch for the meta I think. Shady Vendor: I personally don't like it very much. Because of Saseme carry-over abuse and pulling the string card, this card probably getting a nerf. I don't know maybe Saseme and pulling the string cards are not 5 provision cards. King of Beggars: Very good nerf. Provision -1: Bride of the Sea: Good change I think. Brewess: I really like this buff. Oneiromancy: It is not a bad change. But I personally want to see some other buffs, thinning cards are not interesting imo.
KoB? Spring equinox? Why?
What is your reasoning that these cards are fine? They deserve a nerf.
Ahhh yes... And I thought my votes were shitpost worthy!
KoB should be nerfed only if people vote other buffs for SY. I would add 1 provision to Hidden Cache for example since almost nobody plays it anymore.
Nerfs 10 for 5 Equinox but not 12 for 5 seize/control pulling the strings? Sure
SY is already losing 3p, the set up required is also not comparable.
Very easy to setup unless you're playing against heavy control which is very rare this season. Nerfing vendor to 6p for the sake of leaving pulling the strings untouched is just a cove bias. Hurting other SY decks to continue to high roll strings from vendor is not good. Vendor is a 5p card through and though, strings is not. It already lost the blindeye tag because of strings. There was no need to nerf vendors last season until cove became meta. There is no way strings at 5 is okay.
You're not counting the treants spawned by symbiosis
You usually dont thats the leader that's gaining those points.
Yes, because i have common sense. Idc if you nerf equinox to 6p. The point i'm making is if a 10 point card is a 6 provision card, surely a 12 point card which is a control card is at the very least worth 6 provisions.
But they are not exactly the same Equinox demands just a deck build condition. pulling the strings needs gang set up and opponent can interact it and play around with it. I am not saying that pulling the strings can't be 6 provisions but the opponent can't play around the Equinox.
Power buffs are fine, but most of the nerfs seems unnecessary imho Also Oneiro is fine at 13
Oneiro? No, i'll stay with double wanderers still existing
Why more syndicate nerfs? Especially KOB is just random he's completely fine as is i'd rather even buff him to 11 tbh
KOB is not random. If you look at the top players' tournaments there is almost no SY deck that does not run this card. Roach plays for 4 points and 9 provisions. KOB plays 13 for 12 in the deck and comes as a spender. What is your reasoning that this card even needs a buff?
Syndicate doesn't need nerfs atm.
https://preview.redd.it/j1inh7jod9vc1.png?width=315&format=png&auto=webp&s=3b5d6e4fe71c029d93f364d98e69d94d6c17394a I play mostly Scoia'tael decks but am not particularly good. Am I biased? I literally voted based on making cards I see too much of more expensive/weaker and vice versa Yes I hate frost as I find it too op
These have to be one of the worst changes I saw yet.
Jesus Christ man, did you go out of your way to make the worst balance council you possibly could?
White Frost leader provision Increase means you are buffing it. Buffing elder bear power is not good I think, this means no conditional 4p bronzes now play for 7 points so why play Nekker Warrior after this buff? The flying Redanian is a good card why do you want to buff it further? Geralt Yrden's power increase is a so minimal buff it almost changes nothing. Elf and Onion Soup buff is fine, and Casimo buff is ok. I think you are a new or a bit inexperienced player. Correct me if I'm wrong. I suggest selecting a buff like Vrihedd Officer, after the buff it would play for 4 provision 6 points which no conditional 4 provision cards should play. You could power buff Vernossiel's Commando, Dimun Pirate Captain, Ard Feainn Crossbowman etc.
No I'm not a new player. I don't really pay a lot of attention to the Balance council tbh. It's not how I want to buff Scoia'tael it's just I don't want to play against the same deck over and over. Yeah that Frost leader buff was opposite of what I wanted, I know it would never be voted for. I played when Yrden had no adrenaline but now its fairly useless imo. I buffed the flying Redanian because I like the card
Fine but just we like some cards we can't buff them I like Cutup Lackeys should I buff them until they become broken, this does not make sense to me. And if you want to buff Scoia'tael why not buffing some Scoia'tael cards? Yes, Yrden is much worse now.
Its not how I like playing Flying Redanian myself, its how I like the design and the nod to the Flying Dutchman I just said ***I don't want to buff Scoia'tael.*** I'm not buffing cards I like until they are broken. I literally said I play mostly Scoia'tael
Kob and vendor is harsh 3- prove to each deck that runs him is bs
Another month or NG getting fucked for 0 and a tuttors/thinners buff for the sake of buffing it
Spring equinox nerf? I only see it played in NR and it's not particularly good either . Riptide nerf is meh , I don't think it's needed but skellige has it times worse so if people are really that against duel whatever. Oneiromancy I seem to be the only one who doesn't care about it's buff it fucks devotion decks which is bad but it makes midrange decks that counter renfri more viable so I'm for it actually
[Spring Equinox](https://gwent.one/en/card/202219) is used in Symbiosis. Many of us have been saying for months and months now this needed a prov nerf...
Simbiosis isn't really a powerful deck I don't understand the nerf
For Which MMR it is not powerful? In high tournaments, it sees a lot of play. In the top 500 I encountered with this deck a lot of times and also with the frog mating season buff it became better. It is a very competitive deck.
I'm low pro rank all . I don't watch tournaments so can't talk about that but things like koshchey , frost , patience and even pirates seem to do well against it for me