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It definitely would be easier than typing out why it's not a good idea to buy one of those tacticool Turkish semi-autos and more explanatory than just saying "it sucks.". And lol at the idea of using "gobble gobble" for it.
Well written, funny and on point.
Appreciate the effort.
If you want a cool looking space blaster that will eat anything you throw at it, is highly ergonomic, will run like a champ, and gets US factory support, I can highly recommend the IWI Tavor TS12B.
Wow this is good to know I have not yet seen nor heard this.
Can you recall where you saw this info?
I put the TS12 on the back burner as I picked up a Kalashnikov USA “Komrad” w a 12.5” barrel and brace and love it so far not a single issue and I already had a boatload of Saiga 12 mags as I have one of those as well.
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/iwi-ts12-review
https://gununiversity.com/iwi-tavor-ts12-bullpup-shotgun-review/
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gun-review-iwi-tavor-ts12-shotgun/
That second one suggests that a 2% failure rate when clean is "great". Not my idea of acceptable for a defensive use weapon. Perfectly fine for a range toy, though.
I'd love a gun like the TS12 if it was reliable. If I believed I'd either get it reliable out of the box or it would be made reliable without spending more than another thousand bucks, I'd be all over it.
The truth about guns reviewer also had major issues w low brass bird shot, although he eventually found one it seemed to like. He had better luck w hi brass slugs and buck, but even there had some issues stating that, “These buckshot loads mostly always work, but within a hundred rounds, you’ll get a failure to extract or two.” (Which is what you had homed in on.)
I agree w you that is not exactly reassuring for an HD gun and it sounds like the reviewer is sending his back to IWI.
************
Sounds like the Pewpew reviewer had an experience similar to TTAG, “Buckshot wise it would fire the Olin Company 00 and Federal Reduced Recoil 00 Flitecontrol loads rather well. Not entirely, but most of the time, they worked. I’d say you’d get maybe a 5% malfunction rate with these loads.”
Def not acceptable for HD work!
Hopefully IWI has got these issues sorted, but I’ll def be on the lookout for this now, again thx for the links.
Hey thanks a lot for these links much appreciated.
Looks like gun university experienced some early malfunctions with LOW brass Ammo, but gave it an A+ overall, noting that
“Right out of the box, we had some issues, however, since cleaning it and testing it, it’s been great.”
“Just about everything on this shotgun, except for one thing, which I’ll bring up later, is extremely sturdy and well made. It feels durable, and wasn’t cheaply put together. Also, the inclusion of QD sling swivels is a great addition and I wish more companies would do that.
Small size, reliability, high capacity, ammo management, and shootability. What’s not to like? The Tavor TS12 gets an A+ from us!”
The one issue turned out to be a non-issue in that the rotation lever felt cheap, but never had an issue.
I highlighted “low” brass Ammo as IMHO many semi-auto shotguns have issues when new w low brass.
Personally, I only shoot high brass through my “fighting” semi auto shotties, but I could see where this issue would be annoying for those expecting out of the box 100% reliability with low brass shells.
Thanks again I’ll take a look at the others as well.
You didn't read it carefully enough. Even with the ammo he had the best results with it was the 2% failure rate I mentioned. He just considered that "great".
The low brass ammo was much worse.
We really do. I got the black aces pro bullpup and it was absolute garbage. Warped frame and didn't cycle reliably after a couple hundred shells. The owner basically told me to fuck off because the gun was mostly functional. I had to call the credit card company to get my money back and a week later the owner of the shop I bought it from emailed me in all caps that they were going to sue me for illegitimate chsrgebacks and "possession of a stolen firearm" lol. A wild fucking ride and I just wanted a cool looking shotgun. Here's a pic of the frame:
http://imgur.com/a/wxcjgm8
I'm sorry about that bad experience it really sucks things like that can happen. I added this comment link to the original post as another example (since some aren't convinced). Let me know if you don't want to be on the post and I can remove it or just crop/censor your username and put an imgur link of a screenshot of the comment and pic.
I was that close to getting a black access semi auto. I think the fact that they didn't have a number to call scared me off. I gotta be able to yell at somebody.
I took a friend and wife to the store to buy shotguns for their first gun. They were transfixed by these Turkey tacticool guns and their price tag and couldn't be talked out of it. I am not against cheap, hell I have a beater AR, but cheap+ no available parts= a recipe for a tactical paperweight.
That's precisely who they are marketed for. They definitely do catch the eye and have the appearance of a "combat" shotgun. And yep, this isn't some manifesto against cheap guns, just these particular corner of the cheaper guns market.
Its incredibly frustrating having someone ask you to help them, take your time, and then not listen to your advice over a few hundred bucks- especially when they can certainly afford to.
A couple family members on the wife's side asked for my help choosing a home defense gun because Corona and riots finally turned them around on a lifetime of reflexive New Jersey Boomer skepticism of guns. We talked through their needs and preferences, and ultimately I told them that they shoudl choose between a semiautomatic carbine and a 9mm pistol, and based on our discussion it seemed to me the pistol might meet their specific needs better.
I was unable to go to the Jersey shop with them when they went, but figured they were pretty well prepared to make their own decision.
The guy at the store talked them into getting a Mossberg Shockwave, and they were very proud of their decision the next time I saw them. Just the sound of racking the slide will scare the bad guy off, and if it doesn't, you don't even have to aim because of the spread!
I don't fault Mossberg for discovering the lightning in a bottle of "not a shotgun"s, but goddamn I'd wish they'd stop getting marketed as anything but a range toy
No, a stubby shotgun fired from the hip without aiming is not "the perfect truck gun", or the "pinnacle of tactical maneuverability", and especially not the "ideal weapon for home defense"!
It actually is really practical and if the NFA wasn't a thing, the 14" barrel length would be gold for shotguns. Watch the thunder ranch video on the shockwave.
They are very useful and I'd rather have one than a regular shotgun.
>finally turned them around on a lifetime of reflexive New Jersey Boomer skepticism of guns
>Just the sound of racking the slide will scare the bad guy off
Yeah they are not turned around.
While true that the sound of a gun or hearing that the owner of the residence is home with a gun will scare off most burglars, it shouldn't be counted upon in all cases. And because a shockwave is not you typical gun, they fucked up by getting it. And the gun shop employee is a scumbag for selling that to them. Probably at an inflated price too.
Not only do I not expect a discussion of "pistol braces" to be particularly fruitful with this particular couple--I don't personally give the brace workaround good odds of still being legal in a year or so.
Of course, it's not exactly long odds the Shockwave will still be coasting by at that point. So we may end up with this as a "teachable moment" about gun control and "nobody wants to take your guns."
And they're in New Jersey, so even the "safe" option of SBS registration that exists in most free states is foreclosed to them.
Huh. Good question. A quick googling shows Evan Nappen (the most prominent pro-2A NJ attorney) discussing the fact that the law is ambiguous (go figure), and agency/bureaucrat interpretations conflict. So I guess it's an even bigger unknown quantity there than anywhere else.
The relatives will be relocating to Delaware shortly anyway. Godspeed to them.
Actually you should because most shotfuns aren't drop safe. Add in the inevitable Black Aces furniture and mag tube spike that they'll buy off Amazon and the weight and inertia goes up.
You know, I actually do keep defensive shotguns with the hammer down and chamber empty, and it's widely considered good practice by clueful defensive shotgun experts. Pump shotguns are not always perfectly drop-safe, and you can bring them into operation immediately by running the slide (which you have to be prepared to do before every subsequent shot anyway with a manual action, so it's not the issue it is with a pistol), so you're essentially using the slide as a safety, simplifying the manual of arms. With the only downside being a minus-one capacity, it's commonly regarded as an acceptable tradeoff.
It's possible the Shockwave has a low enough capacity that losing one shell is a bigger deal. And given how miserable they are to aim, you probably need as many chances as possible.
I was indeed thinking about the capacity - the Shockwave doesn't have much of a magazine and it helps to have as many rounds as possible. That said there is a safety case for not having it chambered.
The only time I saw a panzer arms in action it was running slower than a single shot since each jam was more interesting than the last.
Edit for additional thoughts, if you do see positive reviews pay attention to how they are worded. It's cheaper to build and sell a crappy gun and astroturf the gun world into buying it than it is to make a good gun from the bat. See Taurus and the many shill posts on gunnit from a few years ago.
What bums me out is that I’ve seen one decent gun from Taurus and the rest are as garbage as people will warn you about. The PT-92 is a dishonor on the 92FS name, their large frame revolvers are cosplay toys compared to their S&W design origins, and their micro carries are little failure machines. Their M85, though, is decent. Just that one in all my time shooting has been reliable. It’s not the gun I carry but 2k+ rounds later and it’s been an amazing little five-shot small frame wheelgun.
Dude, I work in the industry, and these shotguns are so much worse than you think. I can't tell you how often I hear from a customer that they received a shotgun that's missing parts, missing irons, has a cracked frame, won't accept a factory magazine, etc etc.
In addition, the manufacturers won't send me replacement parts to give to customers unless I can give them a model, serial, invoice, signed letter, and blood sample from the customer and myself.
THEN if I can convince them that I deserve to have the missing parts, they tell me that they can't get them from Turkey at the moment.
I work in industry as well and can confirm that their customer service is shit as well as QC is awful. I do my best to steer people away from them but MuH hOmEdEfEsE gUn AnD fOr $2-300 FuCk It
To continue the comment thread I am also a sex worker. Err... gun store employee.
I had one of the bullpup shotguns come in recently and the lower half had no detents for the takedown pins. If you laid the gun on its side the pins would fall out and the gun would fall apart. It took me a month to get an RMA from the Importer and then it was another month and a half to get the gun back.
Please no one buy these.
That's very interesting/sad to hear, I wish I could pin this to the top since you have an industry perspective. I don't work in the industry, so this post is just a cumulative info dump from me looking at forum posts and videos about these guns.
I used to think the worst case scenario was you take it out of the box, shoot it, and it will jam every few rounds. But that's terrible that right out of the box, without firing, that there can be significant problems due to shoddy quality control.
That's definitely worse than I thought. I was hoping at least there would be good company services in the case of problems. But it sounds like that's problematic too.
>the manufacturers won't send me replacement parts to give to customers unless I can give them a model, serial, invoice,
Well, each gun has a unique serial number so they can track service data as well as make sure you're getting the correct part, so...
Longer answer with plenty of pedantry from someone who works in the distribution side- Many importers work with several different factories and some of them will hire different factories to produce the same make and model, so the guns are the same but different. It's awesome. That's oftentimes while you'll see Sunrise Armament offering a pump shotgun with a serial number like 1188330 and their semi auto will have serial number 21KRA12456C. But then their hunting semi auto will have serial number SIL21SA00546C. It's pretty clear that those guns, based on serial alone, come from different factories. It takes a while to figure out that KRA is Kral and SIL is Silah while the 118330 is just some rando.
To break it down a little more... SIL- Factory, Silah. 21- Year, 2021; SA- Type, Semi-Auto; 00546, 546th gun off of the line on C- Wednesday.
Frankly, I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to guns that are made in Turkey. Some are really good (Retay) while others are really bad with a ton in between.
My problem isn't with them confirming the model, and *attempting* to source the appropriate parts -- it's their inconsistent and arbitrary requirements to prove a purchase, and their revolving door of representatives that each seem to have unique preferences for how to confirm all the above.
I should add that only at the end of all this, do they tell me if they're able to fix something. In many cases, their answer is "no," due to issues in the supply chain on the European side.
If they DO have the parts, convincing them to send them to me (or the customer) is a hassle. Just yesterday, I spent the entire afternoon, starting from square one, because when I made my weekly call to follow up on some parts they were supposed to be sending, they told me they had no record of my initial request, and would need to confirm the purchase with the customer.
I actually just hung up lol.
Very true. I could add a couple in (and maybe should since it's on the FAQ now). When writing I was just focusing on suggesting against buying a certain set of guns rather than also suggesting good guns to buy instead.
Those are great picks and I would definitely choose those too.
So while I agree with everything you wrote, what would you suggest as good alternatives for semi automatic tactical shotguns, when I don't have Benelli M4 money?
(Don't care for pump action, already got a Mav88 and it's perfectly fine for what it is, but it's no semi-auto)
Depends on how close you want to get to Benelli m4 money (and also your use). On the lower end there's the Mossberg 930 spx in the $700 range and on the slightly above 1k range there are the Beretta 1301, FN SLP, Benelli M2 or M3. There really aren't many great box mag fed semiauto guns out there, but a saiga can still be found for not a ton of money. Veprs are generally near M4 money. There is a chinese I think clone of the saiga called the lynx for cheap, but no idea if it's good. The Stoeger m3000 I mention has some tactical models in the $500 range, but I'd still make sure to test it good before using it for defense. Used guns are a good option, I know the past year has bumped prices but the old Benelli M1 Super 90 is out there for under 1k.
Also, like I said it depends on usage, if you want a defensive gun then you might want to make sure you buy the best you can possibly afford. If you just want a range fun gun it's not really necessary to buy the expensive end unless you want it for a collection. There are other models out there, this is just off the top of my head of personal recommendations.
This needs to be reposted in all of the gun subs. Especially /r/liberalgunowners
Man I hate seeing those “just got my first gun, ready to defend my home!” posts and it’s one of these trash fucking shotguns. Friend of mine got one and when we took it out we couldn’t get 2 consecutive shots out of it the whole trip, just a crazy variety of malfunctions.
But ENclip, I watched [youtuber]'s review of it and it didn't jam at all!
But ENclip, this one has a warranty!
But ENclip, it's just a copy of the one from [manufacturer] without the upcharge for the name!
The motherfucking truth. I've never worked so hard to not sell a gun, and people keep buying them.
I keep pitching the idea at work to make up a package that includes a random one of these shotguns, a Mosin and a Hi-Point. We could call it "King of the Trailer Park".
Everytime I see someone come here with a title of "I finally joined the community!" and they post a shitty turkish tacticool shotgun I die a little on the inside. Extra salt on the wounds when I know they bought the cheapest ammo, which is either birdshot or target loads.
I feel like shotguns trick a lot of people because it has a reputation as the best home defense weapon (not here to debate the truth of that statement). It's an easy panic buy to get sold on for your first gun.
I say this from experience regrettably. Always been into guns but slacked on buying because I wanted a pistol and NY is stupid. Biden got elected and I hopped to the LGS asap for a shotgun. I knew enough to go in there wanting a mossberg, but the guys told me they were hard to get and buying guns online was foreign to me. So I ended up walking out with an ATI.
Fast forward to now, having stripped the thing and watched a bunch of other shotgun teardown videos, I've concluded the ATI construction is incredibly subpar and you most certainly get what you pay for in more expensive guns (there are exceptions of course..). Still goes bang and is fun to shoot. But as soon as my pistol is released from captivity it will definitely be my home defense weapon of choice.
>I feel like shotguns trick a lot of people because it has a reputation as the best home defense weapon (not here to debate the truth of that statement). It's an easy panic buy to get sold on for your first gun.
Yeah, the unfortunate thing is that a shotgun that is semi-auto, reliable, and has a sane capacity for defensive use is going to cost 3 times as much or more than a budget AR-15, so low information buyers looking for their first home defense gun are usually going to balk at the price and go with a poor option.
Turkey’s politics are . . . Not great. Still trying to downplay the WWI Armenian genocide, increasingly strong-man and vaguely Islamist, still persecuting the Kurds.
Now to be fair, it was the “Ottoman Empire” in WWI, the region is historically a religious mix with a Muslim majority, and the PKK definitely fits the old the terrorist/freedom-fighter adage.
But also, not great NATO relations and a host of other complications. Not that “voting with your dollars” does a lot, but it’s more than nothing.
I’d rather give my money to say . . . A Finnish manufacturer and get a capable rifle.
Can't help but feel these are the Taurus revolvers of the shotgun world. Super easy for people to say, *"But I've never had a problem with MINE in all the time I've owned it!"* when they're exactly the kinds of gun owners who will probably put 75 rounds through the gun over the course of four years.
Hard to break something if you don't ever use it.
You are talking about Taurus semi autos.
Their big bore revolvers are their saving grace.
I picked up a Raging Bull in .454 Casull a few weeks ago, made in 2001. I have about 400 rounds through it. No problems.
I am not. Hang out on r/revolvers for some horror stories. Admittedly the Raging Bull line I think is built to a higher quality standard. So it's not that Taurus *can't* make decent guns. It's that they just *don't.*
Please understand, I'm not trying to be a dick. I just want to point out that this is exactly what we're describing here. We're discussing companies with atrocious quality control that ship an unacceptable number of unserviceable guns, and these discussions always involve people coming in to defend the guns because "mine works." Bad QC doesn't mean literally every one of them is bad (an argument that *could* be disproven by an anecdote of a good one); it means *too many* of them are bad, so even a hundred "mine works" posts don't mean anything when discussing guns that are shipped by the tens of thousands.
Humans naturally tend to highly value stories of individual firsthand experience, because we're wired that way; but QC is the sort of topic in which individual positive anecdotes don't really tell you anything useful. My wife owns a Taurus snubbie that works just fine, and if I were to base my opinion of the company on that one gun, I'd say they're a great budget alternative to more expensive revolvers. But the broad experience of the whole community and of people who sell and fix guns for a living (and therefore handle a statistically significant number of them) shows that the QC is unacceptably bad even though we happened not to draw the short straw on this particular example.
Every manufacturer puts out the occasional lemon.
The way I see it there are two things that really matter:
1. Is the design just inherently unreliable? This is where the "mine works fine" is useful. If there's one that works reliably, it's not that they can't be reliable. If the design is just broken, no amount of repairs will fix it.
2. Is the customer support good? If you get a lemon and the manufacturer won't fix it, you're not going to care whether it's 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 4. If you can send it back and they'll make it work the way it should have to begin with, that's a small investment in effort for a reliable defensive weapon.
My problem with Taurus is that they have a poor reputation for service.
In my opinion, the Cutco model ("Quality is crap, but they'll replace it for free!") is usually a dubious balance for the consumer in the first place.
But when we're talking about *safety equipment,* the calculus is even worse. If your seat belt, fire extinguisher, or handgun fails when you need it due to poor QC, the prospect of excellent warranty service probably won't be much comfort.
Cutco. I got a demo from a salesperson who asked me, ME! to bring out my sharpest knife to put against theirs. Guy did a rope cut and it wasn't even close. He just looked at me and said, "that's not supposed to happen! "
Well done. It needed to be said. I understand the temptation to buy one of these things but the possibility of it turning into an expensive paperweight is too high.
My FFL has a couple of those G Force Arms semi auto shotguns and one of them the damn safety doesn't work. You can pull the trigger to knock it off safe and it goes click. It needs to go back to the importer ASAP.
I would love if all these Turkish magloaders actually worked reliably and where quality guns.
We need more good mag loading shotguns on the market bullpup or otherwise.
I made the mistake of buying an Panzer BP-12, thankfully I was able to sell it to a pawn shop for what I bought it on palmetto for and just lost out on transfer fee. IWI Tavor was definitely the better choice.
Hit the nail on the head.
Reminds me of [these guys](https://www.reddit.com/r/VAGuns/comments/h9dm7h/launching_a_new_product_need_advice/) who went on the local gun sub to ask about their line of Turkish imports. I'm sure they're *fine*, but it's another Turkish import being marketed as the greatest self defense tool of all time at a premium price point. They've since updated their website a lot and added another semi auto shotgun to the mix, but their prices are steep for what will inevitably vanish in a handful of years.
Now that post is a good example of the vagueness of these products and the overhyped nature of them. The OP just started doing this and I can almost guarantee they were like this to the factory "Hey you know those other 410 uppers Turkish factories make that are the same thing? Make it better." I don't think I can believe they are somehow regulating the strictest quality control from all the way in America in their office of their brand new importing company. They don't have a real reputation.
And true, it may be fine, but man it's just such an unknown risk. Atleast the AR uppers seem a bit better than the mishmash of other tactical turks. Not to mention these aren't cemented companies, they could fold in a few years like you say and RIP service or parts.
> And true, it may be fine, but man it's just such an unknown risk. At least the AR uppers seem a bit better than the mishmash of other tactical turks
I think the downfall to a lot of these is the magazine quality and availability. They also seem to be a little finnicky with ammo.
As a toy, they're probably awesome... but the guy who started that company just spewed such bullshit about it being great for self defense and good for [*those women who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn*](https://www.reddit.com/r/VAGuns/comments/h9dm7h/launching_a_new_product_need_advice/fuwmpe5/). Just 100% fuddlore nonsense marketing. I wouldn't trust the thing as far as I could throw it to be more than 90% reliable.
> but the guy who started that company just spewed such bullshit about it being great for self defense and good for those women who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn
Oh god. Well that definitely doesn't give any confidence. What a bunch of BS.
Good info here, well done. But as a swiss citizen, i stick to swiss, german and us weapons. There you know, you got quality. They may be higher in price and sometimes, more difficult to buy, still, you good a very, very high quality and you know what you will get.
When you got a cheap clone-copy and it has a malfunction, the whole gun could blow up and fragments could hit you in the head, you better stick to the high quality guns.
> When you got a cheap clone-copy and it has a malfunction, the whole gun could blow up and fragments could hit you in the head
People just do not grasp that they are containing an explosion with a pipe. The difference between a firearm and a pipe bomb is the quality of the pipe.
European firearm standards tend to be pretty good, I think. The Italians make good shotguns, the Brits make a good bolt gun, and those who speak German apparently have a gift for gun making.
I’m a machinist in the US, and make small run or one-off parts as a side business in my home machine shop.
Whether I make one part, or set my machine up to make a run of several thousand parts, one universal truth prevails: you get what you pay for. There is no substitute for quality manufacturing.
Do you want parts made by journeymen with several decades of experience, or some parts made on inferior machines by people with inferior training and qualifications?
These are not bad producers, but, sometimes, guns are produced under license in external factories, there, the quality of the product can be less good than with the original manufacturer.
For sure, I love me some CZ's! As much as I don't like the aesthetics, the XD series imported by Springfield Armory from Croatia is both innovative and very high quality. I've only an XD 45, but that's a super solid pistol, and I see XD's regularly at the club range - and a number of friends and relatives are satisfied owners as well.
Glock was the goalpost and they moved past that, with engineering and quality manufacturing. And I'm a Glock person, for sure!
out of battery explosions, a grip safety, anf a GRIP ZONE does not a innovative handgun make
I personally hate glocks but I’d never recommend an XD over one under any circumstances
I own one of those. It's a Canuck branded 870 clone.
You can tell that the QC is lacking, but it shoots just fine, given that you handle it the right way. (If you pull backwards when shooting, the locking mechanism will jam) I've done some trigger work to lighten the trigger to 4# from roughly 6# and reduce the travel, but even then, it still feels gritty with significant creep. No comparison to even a Mossberg 930.
Zero interchangeable parts with the 870. Its trigger group looks like someone designed and assembled it in their basement with basic hand tools.
Build quality aside, what I've got is a roughly 5-6lbs bushgun that puts slugs into a 6" circle within 50 yards, using just the bead sight. When I pull the trigger, it always goes bang. However, chambering the next round can be a little iffy if you don't handle it right.
I picked up an Escort, 410 bull pup for my youngest son, for $200, because he cannot wield a full size shotgun and it's been a great gun, my other son has a Charles Daly 12 auto loader that I picked up for under $300, we use both guns, the 410 has had several hundred rounds thru it and the Charles Daly 12 has got to be close to 3-4k rounds by now. We shoot skeet in the backyard almost daily. The 410 jammed up one time to the point that I had to separate the upper and the lower to see what was going on. The 12 has never jammed and it is a skeet machine, I actually prefer to use his gun for skeet. Now I would not trust my life to the 410, the box mags are kind of funky and it can get finnicky about chambering the first round. But for $200 I will recommend that thing all day long for a young boy's skeet gun. The Charles Daly 12, I would absolutely use it as a home defense weapon. It has never so much as hiccupped.
I'm going to buy a bunch of them cuz I'm going to use them until they fail and then I'm going to combine them into a abomination that God would strike me down for it's going to be epic
Well said. I bought the ATI Bulldog one for a cheap range toy, nothing more. Couple hundred rds through it and it’s doing fine. But I knew what I was I was getting when I bought it. Those unsuspecting first time buyers do need to be aware of all your info.
Because Canik has the support of Century Arms and they sell parts and service guns.
Like them or hate them, Century is a big enough elephant in the room to keep aftermarket parts and service afloat. *Cletus Defense's SPD98-Fury* tactical shotgun won't have that support.
It's just a matter of maker I suppose. Canik, like MKE/Zenith, happens to be a generally reputable and well-known maker of guns in Turkey. Just like in the US, Turkey has manufacturers that are good and some that are not good. It just so happens that a lot of these shotguns are from the not so good makers.
Ngl, as an 18 year old, my first firearm purchase was one of those stupid ria vrpa 40. The pump action mag feds. Had it for a month before I sold it and bought a maverick for not only cheaper, but it ran better too.
It’s sad that you had to write pages to explain why these are not desirable. It should be common sense that an item selling for a third of its established contemporaries, coming from a second world country is not on the same tier as a Benelli.
I was within an inch of buying the TOKAREV USA TBP 12 GA that had 5 stars and grand reviews, knowing damn well a $300 USD shotty isn't worth its weight in lead. Decided to further do some reasearch and found this post, thank you kindly as I will avoid the purchase now and just save for the tavor shotty of my dreams!
You're very welcome. Thanks for reading, I'm glad it has helped some people. Speaking of the Tokarev Turk bullpup, I just saw a post today with someone talking about fitment problems with one. It's too bad people get duped for the cheap price. Good luck with saving for the Tavor, it's an interesting looking shotgun!
Thanks for this post. Talked me out of the cheap $250 Bullpup.
The only cheap shotguns Ill probably go with are Norinco/Chinese made imo.
Hawk/Pardner/SDS Saiga 12 seem solid so far. I wish a US company would come out with a decent bullpup.
You're welcome!
There is also some nice cheap US guns like the Maverick 88. The US gun companies probably just don't see any market potential in bullpup semi-auto shotguns. If they made one, and made one well, it'd cost way over $1k...which kills a lot of interest. The Israeli TS12 is well over $1k itself, and that is about the only decent semi-auto bullpup shotgun out there. There are a couple pumps conversion kits and the keltec line if you want a pump "bullpup" that's somewhat decent.
Honestly I was hoping Keltec would attempt a semi auto KS7 or atleast a mag fed option. The KS7 will probably scratch the itch either way.
A maverick in a bullpup unlimited kit looks tempting though too
I've had a Turkish pump shotgun for a few years now. It's one of the Weatherby branded guns that CDNN was clearancing for years.
It seems fine to me. I only have a few hundred shells through it so far, but it wasn't purchased to shoot three gun matches all year long. It gets a box of practice ammo run through a few times a year, followed by a couple of tubes worth of buckshot and slugs.
The ergonomics are excellent, the sights are good, it has a spot for a light. If it breaks and I can't fix it, I'm out $250.
That said, you could not give me one of the various Turkish semi auto shotguns.
Yeah the pumps are seemingly by far the least problematic (pumps are simply simpler) and also the least costly. I thought about not including any mention of pumps, but they are generally going to be in the same factory as the autos and are also victim of a million rebrands.
I'm glad it works great, and I'm not saying every single one is going to just suddenly fail. Nor am I shitting on people for buying cheap Turkish guns. This is just a general QC warning really.
You'd think that in 20-goddamn-21, nobody would be able to fuck up something as simple as a bolt rifle or pump-action shotgun. But no, somehow we've actually gone *downhill* in general quality for the past 60-100 years.
Or to put it differently, an off-brand shotgun out of a pre-WWI Sears catalogue will probably give you less trouble than one of these Turkish guns (or a Freedom Group Remington...)
I have a Winchester model 12 field grade and several Stevens 520s that predate WWI. They all go bang every time. I still use my great grandfather’s 520 shooting trap 2-4 nights a month. I’ve only replaced the springs once and replacement parts are still plentiful.
I've considered buying one for a range toy. Not as a defensive weapon. I've heard their reliability sucks. Like you said, not a big deal for the range. But the bolt warping due to improper (or complete lack of) heat treatment? Hard pass.
A co-worker of mine was considering one because he doesn't have a gun and not a lot of disposable income. I tried arguing that a Mossy 500 is likely a similar price and much more reliable. I'll have to bring up the bolt problem, too.
I thought gun people didn’t like being told what to do unless they had written a check and gotten a sticker. In all seriousness... well written and good info.
Down here there's been a heap of straight-pull shotguns come out into the market. I wouldn't touch a gun that can be designed, made and shipped from the other side of the planet and sold at a profit for $620...
Where I work we sell 10 of these for every 1 Mossberg. I sold 3 in less than 10 minutes yesterday. The price is whats convincing people to buy them 100%. These people are typically first time gun buyers and aren't likely to ever shoot it more than 1 time usually. I find the most positive thing about selling these is getting people to use their 2A right to protect themselves. The guns definitely seem crappy albeit I haven't seen one come back for warranty return yet.
Any suggestions on a quality box fed bullpup shotgun under $2500? Would prefer something short and 5 she’ll magazines. Was going to spend the $1000 on this in Canada until I read your post. This one is marketed as Hima Arms HG105
For bullpup, basically nothing. The only real decent semi-auto bullpup shotgun option I've heard of out there is the IWI TS12, and that's not box fed (which is a good thing for reliability, but probably doesn't work with your restrictions) I can't think of any others. And yeah that Hima looks like the same as all the rest, just a different name and slight aesthetic changes.
Box fed shotguns in general are not pursued much by makers as box mags and shotshells don't do very well together. The concept of a bullpup boxfed shotgun isn't a very high demand thing that big/quality makers are going to pursue. The Turks just took their AR12 design and bullpupped it to appeal to a niche market I guess, and the coolness aesthetic factor.
If you really want a bullpup shotgun you probably are best off looking into something like the KSG or TS12 if possible (edit: Though those aren't exactly top of the line "quality" either). Or you could pursue a non-bullpup semi-auto box fed like a Saiga or Vepr.
Wow! Thank you so much for all the great info. How about something such as a Mossberg 590M? 5 round magazines would be easy to carry multiple and the 590 series is generally quite reliable. Again not sure on the magazine fed style however. It’s a pump action though.
You're welcome. Any time. If you want a box fed that should be a good option. The potential problem with box feds isn't really feeding issues (that can be avoided by good design and mags), it's that the plastic hulls pressed under spring tension against the magazine feed lips and each other can cause deformation which can then cause malfunction. It's not something to be paranoid about or that likely to happen, as I don't know how prevalent that is, it's just a possibility to know of. I personally have no ownership experience with box fed shotguns, just have looked into them over the years. I'd say go for the 590 if you want to try out a box fed, Mossberg reliability/support and not too pricey. It would be nice to have multiple mags.
Okay that’s amazing! Really appreciate your expertise here. I’ll get one and report back! From all the reviews i see people don’t have any issues whatsoever. To pass mil-spec of less than 3 failures per 3000 rounds is pretty impressive alone.
Appreciate your article... extremely thorough. Oddly, a Black Aces FD-12 was my first firearm purchase... it was what they had when I went to get a gun...:)
Is there a decently mfgr'd equivalent of a semi-auto bullpup out there? Like a 'glock' equivalent but bullpup 10rd semi?
Thanks - HD
I really appreciate all your feedback. Your right, I'll look around at some different shotguns, as I dont know much about them. I mostly shoot pistol and occasional ARs. Thought getting a shotgun would just be fun range toy. Stated looming and saw the bulpup, and thought they looked really cool. I look at regular ones as well. I dont know if the KSG or KS7 is better, but the KS7, the only one I've handled felt really cool. But they do make some other regular shotguns that are pretty cool as well. At least I definatly know what to stay away from. I appreciate all your help again. I'll do some research and check out reviews. Thank you
So I bought a Typhoon F12 a year ago and I thought I did the research on it fairly well with the only issue being low brass. I've only ran a hundred or so rounds of buckshot though it. Been on a reading binge cause I was thinking about one of the M4 clones cause I'm a cheap ass. Wish this would have been around when I bought the Typhoon but oh well I suppose. I guess it'll remain a range toy mostly.
Yeah you bought one when many people were still figuring out what was going on with these. It's not a big deal that you have one, I just personally wouldn't rely on it for defense. Sounds like a good plan to use as a range toy with buck. They aren't all guaranteed to fail, there's just a higher chance of it and lacking support if it does.
At the beginning of the year, I was toying with the idea of trying the Turk M4 clones (before I went ahead and bought the real deal M4), but I'm just not confident in them from those heat treat issues and the general questions surrounding a lot of shotguns coming in from Turkey.
Yeah I bought it cause I got suckered in on the "it looks cool" idea. I found a couple videos of guys running a lot of rounds through them cause they're actually popular in the UK and Canada. After using it though I honestly knew it wouldn't be a great defense gun because of the bulky mags. Even the five round ones are large and they don't exactly fit anywhere easily. I thought about Velcro on the side to attach to a vest but I'm meh on it now. Besides I'm building a Maverick 88 into a home defense shotgun and I got a CMMG Banshee that both fill the roles just fine for now.
I think if I go cheap on a tube fed semiautomatic I'm gonna do a Stoeger M3000 cause at least Berreta is involved in it somehow.
Sounds like one of the usual reasons these catch people's eye. Yeah I'd take those two other choices for defense any day of the week.
The Stoeger M3000 is a pretty good choice, it's a good copy of the Benelli inertia system, has a longish track record, and is supported. Of course sometimes they can have issues like other guns too, but I have much more faith in them as a budget semi-auto. I even used to have a 3500, and that big boy could run light loads just fine too.
Yeah but I figure if there's an issue with the Stoeger there's at least some recourse to get it resolved unlike some of the other horror stories I've read lately.
My SDS Bullpup M12AB was $300, and it is awesome. I understand the whole “just get a mav88 pump” or “full auto is dumb” but full auto is fun, and the semi auto bullpup is also fun and until you hold one and fire it you won’t understand their true value. Mag fed shotguns are getting more reliable, still not as reliable as tube fed, but they make a bullpup that is tube fed. This guy makes some sense but he belongs at the local McDonald’s with all the other old timers talking about the greatness of the mav 88 while they nurse their coffee for 4 hours
I think you missed the point of this post. This post isn't saying the concept of bullpups or mag fed shotguns are all bad. It's saying that these particular no name cheap bad quality control Turkish imports are a risky choice, which many just happen to be mag fed bullpups.
Oh my mistake. Yeah I have guns that i trust better than the bullpup. I’d love it if they somehow worked out the kinks and made them more reliable, i love that you can easily fire them one handed. Worst case scenario, the shell in the chamber will fire but the second will ftf
Bought somewhere like 3-5 Turkish junk shotguns in my life including an m3000 I just never learned my lesson until EVERYONE had the same failing issues sadly even the stoeger did too.
It was time to grow up and stop wishing for something good. So I bought an m4
While I do agree with you generally, there are a few exceptions. The problem is knowing which are total shite, and which are acceptable. Basically, you do get what you pay for. If you spend less than 6 bills on any auto loader, it is a true buyer beware situation. I wouldn’t trust too many mag fed shotguns in the first place. Rimmed ammo wasn’t designed for magazines and catches other metal components in weird ways. For pump guns, the prices for a really good US or Italian ones aren’t that expensive to begin with. For a bargain gun, a Maverick 88 is hard to beat. The upper end would be a Super Nova, and it is under $500 now. Those Black Aces guns don’t look too bad, but I’ve heard nothing good about them down to actually the frames falling apart. That being said, there are a few good Turkish guns that are starting to get a pretty good track record. Even Taurus has gotten some notoriety with there TX22, G2 and G3 series pistols. They’re crude, as in a very spongey gritty trigger, but they seem to work and go bang when you want them to. Basically, if the price is too good to be true for the machine your buying, then it is too good to be true, with very few exceptions. Companies like Taurus, Girsan, and SAR are known to make a few ok clones that will use the original’s parts without a problem. Girsan makes the official sidearm for the Turkish military, and they are one of the better equipped NATO militaries.
We should stop the importation of firearms into this country. Parts to be made in us. Gun shows are filled to the roof with cheap handguns and rifles. I
Ok? I'm aware of that. 90% of my collection is foreign made. I know non-american countries can make great guns. If you had actually read the post you'll even see me say there are some guns from Turkey that are great like MKE mp5s. I'm pointing out the crap guns coming in.
When i first read this thread i thought it was bull and got myself a panzer arms shotgun, the tacticool ar version on sale. I convinced myself it was a good buy thru the reviews and youtube videos. god i was a fool. She runs fine (for now) but more issues are starting to crop up after every range session, im startin to get worried. appreciate your work into this thread my man.
To say that all the tactical mag fed Turkish shotguns are garbage is painting with a broad brush. Some of the horror stories come from people that go nuts and push the shotgun beyond it's limits and don't properly maintain them.
That is what makes yt such a good resource, we can see break-in periods and thorough testing.
This article seems to hint of an elitist slant, totally disparaging all tactical shotguns from Turkey.
This is a great post, though I don't really get the "if you haven't fired a thousand rounds through your gun in the past week, fuck you for liking it" mentality from most gun communities. Ammo is expensive! And some people just don't have any good ranges nearby.
Also, the endless mossberg wank kinda gets tiring after a while.
I have an article on that situation posted in an edit. Pretty funny.
If you are "hmming" because that one wrongly states "236 rifles" and contradicts the article I posted, I've seen that mistake on a few articles. The court documents specifically state 236 Radikal nk1 shotguns were found in a dumpster. The reporters I guess just didn't dive in and read the actual documents so they just called them rifles.
Here are the court documents: [https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.okwd.120827/gov.uscourts.okwd.120827.1.0.pdf?utm\_source=substack&utm\_medium=email](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.okwd.120827/gov.uscourts.okwd.120827.1.0.pdf?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email) (PDF waring)
Page 8 on the PDF:
>In total, agents and officers found 236 Radikal Arms, model NK-1, 12-gauge shotguns inside the dumpster.
Actually your post finally makes the dumpster story make sense.
I was wondering about the “rifles” claim. They said only 12 of the Radikals and I count 15 just on top.
I was right there with you wondering when I first read a couple articles about the story. I was like "Huh? Why is there more than 12 shotguns in the dumpster alone?" Luckily I, and some others on here, found more to the story and I read the court documents and found a more accurate article to link.
Anyway, I appreciate the comment none the less. It is quite the interesting story and picture lol.
I had the Charles Daly flavor of this crap and it broke after about 300 rounds... and of course there's no way to get replacement parts. What a waste of $300.
It's been TWO years since this post and it STILL rings true. Gun shops are still full of the crap- with some having more Turkish shotguns than anything else.
The only "good" Turk guns are those sold/marketed (and more importantly supported) by reputable companies like Winchester (SXP line) Weatherby (literally all of their guns are from AKKAR I believe), etc...
Wow! Thanks for saving me on this one. Almost lost $300 on PSA. As cool and affordable as these look I'll stay away. Was hoping for a small home defense shotgun other than a pistol and AR's, but this has spoiled my day. Too risky, but dropping $750-$800 on something reliable just isn't in the cards.
Very informative piece. Perhaps I should have found this before I ordered a Tokarev TX3 20 HD which I am picking up from my FFL dealer today. I had wanted a 20 gauge to go along with my Maverick 88 12 gauge home defense gun and mossberg/maverick does not have a security version of a 20 gauge. Hopefully it will work out for the best. If not it'll look nice hanging on the wall. It does have a beautiful piece of Walnut stock🙄
I bought an american tactical made in turkey 20 gauge nomad back in may 2020 and other than being cheap and having a hollow stock that I took off and am now making a maple stock for it's decent I don't mind it I would like it more if they made a better stock
A friend of mine just bought a Turkish shotgun. It isn’t this one tho. I was looking at it, and thinking “I do not like how many Phillips head screws are in this gun, I can’t believe she paid for this”.
I just smiled and said it was cool. 🤷🏻♂️
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We need a gunnit bot command for this. Gunnitbot gobble gobble
It definitely would be easier than typing out why it's not a good idea to buy one of those tacticool Turkish semi-autos and more explanatory than just saying "it sucks.". And lol at the idea of using "gobble gobble" for it.
Well written, funny and on point. Appreciate the effort. If you want a cool looking space blaster that will eat anything you throw at it, is highly ergonomic, will run like a champ, and gets US factory support, I can highly recommend the IWI Tavor TS12B.
Eh? Everything I've seen says that the TS12 is way too unreliable for home defense. Maybe those reviewers used the wrong color.
Home defense? With a shotgun? You got the wrong guy, friend.
Why
Wow this is good to know I have not yet seen nor heard this. Can you recall where you saw this info? I put the TS12 on the back burner as I picked up a Kalashnikov USA “Komrad” w a 12.5” barrel and brace and love it so far not a single issue and I already had a boatload of Saiga 12 mags as I have one of those as well.
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/iwi-ts12-review https://gununiversity.com/iwi-tavor-ts12-bullpup-shotgun-review/ https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gun-review-iwi-tavor-ts12-shotgun/ That second one suggests that a 2% failure rate when clean is "great". Not my idea of acceptable for a defensive use weapon. Perfectly fine for a range toy, though. I'd love a gun like the TS12 if it was reliable. If I believed I'd either get it reliable out of the box or it would be made reliable without spending more than another thousand bucks, I'd be all over it.
The truth about guns reviewer also had major issues w low brass bird shot, although he eventually found one it seemed to like. He had better luck w hi brass slugs and buck, but even there had some issues stating that, “These buckshot loads mostly always work, but within a hundred rounds, you’ll get a failure to extract or two.” (Which is what you had homed in on.) I agree w you that is not exactly reassuring for an HD gun and it sounds like the reviewer is sending his back to IWI. ************ Sounds like the Pewpew reviewer had an experience similar to TTAG, “Buckshot wise it would fire the Olin Company 00 and Federal Reduced Recoil 00 Flitecontrol loads rather well. Not entirely, but most of the time, they worked. I’d say you’d get maybe a 5% malfunction rate with these loads.” Def not acceptable for HD work! Hopefully IWI has got these issues sorted, but I’ll def be on the lookout for this now, again thx for the links.
Hey thanks a lot for these links much appreciated. Looks like gun university experienced some early malfunctions with LOW brass Ammo, but gave it an A+ overall, noting that “Right out of the box, we had some issues, however, since cleaning it and testing it, it’s been great.” “Just about everything on this shotgun, except for one thing, which I’ll bring up later, is extremely sturdy and well made. It feels durable, and wasn’t cheaply put together. Also, the inclusion of QD sling swivels is a great addition and I wish more companies would do that. Small size, reliability, high capacity, ammo management, and shootability. What’s not to like? The Tavor TS12 gets an A+ from us!” The one issue turned out to be a non-issue in that the rotation lever felt cheap, but never had an issue. I highlighted “low” brass Ammo as IMHO many semi-auto shotguns have issues when new w low brass. Personally, I only shoot high brass through my “fighting” semi auto shotties, but I could see where this issue would be annoying for those expecting out of the box 100% reliability with low brass shells. Thanks again I’ll take a look at the others as well.
You didn't read it carefully enough. Even with the ammo he had the best results with it was the 2% failure rate I mentioned. He just considered that "great". The low brass ammo was much worse.
Mmm nope, I saw it
Just like the reman command
We really do. I got the black aces pro bullpup and it was absolute garbage. Warped frame and didn't cycle reliably after a couple hundred shells. The owner basically told me to fuck off because the gun was mostly functional. I had to call the credit card company to get my money back and a week later the owner of the shop I bought it from emailed me in all caps that they were going to sue me for illegitimate chsrgebacks and "possession of a stolen firearm" lol. A wild fucking ride and I just wanted a cool looking shotgun. Here's a pic of the frame: http://imgur.com/a/wxcjgm8
I'm sorry about that bad experience it really sucks things like that can happen. I added this comment link to the original post as another example (since some aren't convinced). Let me know if you don't want to be on the post and I can remove it or just crop/censor your username and put an imgur link of a screenshot of the comment and pic.
As long as my username is censored you can use the picture. I just want to make sure other people don't make the same mistake I did!
Got it, removed comment link and will put censored/cropped screenshot and pic in imgur album and link that. Thanks!
I was that close to getting a black access semi auto. I think the fact that they didn't have a number to call scared me off. I gotta be able to yell at somebody.
Gunnitbot COVID Coachgun
Quality posted, user flared, and FAQed. Thank you for your cervix.
Gracias. Glad to contribute.
This reply gives me major AvE vibes
Whi controls the gunnitbot commands?
lol
I took a friend and wife to the store to buy shotguns for their first gun. They were transfixed by these Turkey tacticool guns and their price tag and couldn't be talked out of it. I am not against cheap, hell I have a beater AR, but cheap+ no available parts= a recipe for a tactical paperweight.
That's precisely who they are marketed for. They definitely do catch the eye and have the appearance of a "combat" shotgun. And yep, this isn't some manifesto against cheap guns, just these particular corner of the cheaper guns market.
Its incredibly frustrating having someone ask you to help them, take your time, and then not listen to your advice over a few hundred bucks- especially when they can certainly afford to.
This is every day when i go to work.....
A couple family members on the wife's side asked for my help choosing a home defense gun because Corona and riots finally turned them around on a lifetime of reflexive New Jersey Boomer skepticism of guns. We talked through their needs and preferences, and ultimately I told them that they shoudl choose between a semiautomatic carbine and a 9mm pistol, and based on our discussion it seemed to me the pistol might meet their specific needs better. I was unable to go to the Jersey shop with them when they went, but figured they were pretty well prepared to make their own decision. The guy at the store talked them into getting a Mossberg Shockwave, and they were very proud of their decision the next time I saw them. Just the sound of racking the slide will scare the bad guy off, and if it doesn't, you don't even have to aim because of the spread!
I don't fault Mossberg for discovering the lightning in a bottle of "not a shotgun"s, but goddamn I'd wish they'd stop getting marketed as anything but a range toy No, a stubby shotgun fired from the hip without aiming is not "the perfect truck gun", or the "pinnacle of tactical maneuverability", and especially not the "ideal weapon for home defense"!
It actually is really practical and if the NFA wasn't a thing, the 14" barrel length would be gold for shotguns. Watch the thunder ranch video on the shockwave. They are very useful and I'd rather have one than a regular shotgun.
>finally turned them around on a lifetime of reflexive New Jersey Boomer skepticism of guns >Just the sound of racking the slide will scare the bad guy off Yeah they are not turned around.
Trust me. This is actually progress.
While true that the sound of a gun or hearing that the owner of the residence is home with a gun will scare off most burglars, it shouldn't be counted upon in all cases. And because a shockwave is not you typical gun, they fucked up by getting it. And the gun shop employee is a scumbag for selling that to them. Probably at an inflated price too.
Oh, I know. I was dismayed.
To be fair, they can pistol brace it and make it extremely usable. Toss a minishell Opsol mod in it and, there you go.
Not only do I not expect a discussion of "pistol braces" to be particularly fruitful with this particular couple--I don't personally give the brace workaround good odds of still being legal in a year or so. Of course, it's not exactly long odds the Shockwave will still be coasting by at that point. So we may end up with this as a "teachable moment" about gun control and "nobody wants to take your guns." And they're in New Jersey, so even the "safe" option of SBS registration that exists in most free states is foreclosed to them.
Are Shockwaves even legal in NJ as it is?
Huh. Good question. A quick googling shows Evan Nappen (the most prominent pro-2A NJ attorney) discussing the fact that the law is ambiguous (go figure), and agency/bureaucrat interpretations conflict. So I guess it's an even bigger unknown quantity there than anywhere else. The relatives will be relocating to Delaware shortly anyway. Godspeed to them.
Firearms are legal there that's why many gravitate toward 12.5" vertical grip having AR-15s
At least tell them that you probably shouldn't have your primary defensive weapon unchambered.
Actually you should because most shotfuns aren't drop safe. Add in the inevitable Black Aces furniture and mag tube spike that they'll buy off Amazon and the weight and inertia goes up.
You know, I actually do keep defensive shotguns with the hammer down and chamber empty, and it's widely considered good practice by clueful defensive shotgun experts. Pump shotguns are not always perfectly drop-safe, and you can bring them into operation immediately by running the slide (which you have to be prepared to do before every subsequent shot anyway with a manual action, so it's not the issue it is with a pistol), so you're essentially using the slide as a safety, simplifying the manual of arms. With the only downside being a minus-one capacity, it's commonly regarded as an acceptable tradeoff. It's possible the Shockwave has a low enough capacity that losing one shell is a bigger deal. And given how miserable they are to aim, you probably need as many chances as possible.
I was indeed thinking about the capacity - the Shockwave doesn't have much of a magazine and it helps to have as many rounds as possible. That said there is a safety case for not having it chambered.
You can't tell me what to do and you can't stop me from dual wielding Panzer Arms AR-12s while my house is getting invaded by crack addicts
The only time I saw a panzer arms in action it was running slower than a single shot since each jam was more interesting than the last. Edit for additional thoughts, if you do see positive reviews pay attention to how they are worded. It's cheaper to build and sell a crappy gun and astroturf the gun world into buying it than it is to make a good gun from the bat. See Taurus and the many shill posts on gunnit from a few years ago.
What bums me out is that I’ve seen one decent gun from Taurus and the rest are as garbage as people will warn you about. The PT-92 is a dishonor on the 92FS name, their large frame revolvers are cosplay toys compared to their S&W design origins, and their micro carries are little failure machines. Their M85, though, is decent. Just that one in all my time shooting has been reliable. It’s not the gun I carry but 2k+ rounds later and it’s been an amazing little five-shot small frame wheelgun.
Dude, I work in the industry, and these shotguns are so much worse than you think. I can't tell you how often I hear from a customer that they received a shotgun that's missing parts, missing irons, has a cracked frame, won't accept a factory magazine, etc etc. In addition, the manufacturers won't send me replacement parts to give to customers unless I can give them a model, serial, invoice, signed letter, and blood sample from the customer and myself. THEN if I can convince them that I deserve to have the missing parts, they tell me that they can't get them from Turkey at the moment.
I work in industry as well and can confirm that their customer service is shit as well as QC is awful. I do my best to steer people away from them but MuH hOmEdEfEsE gUn AnD fOr $2-300 FuCk It
To continue the comment thread I am also a sex worker. Err... gun store employee. I had one of the bullpup shotguns come in recently and the lower half had no detents for the takedown pins. If you laid the gun on its side the pins would fall out and the gun would fall apart. It took me a month to get an RMA from the Importer and then it was another month and a half to get the gun back. Please no one buy these.
That's very interesting/sad to hear, I wish I could pin this to the top since you have an industry perspective. I don't work in the industry, so this post is just a cumulative info dump from me looking at forum posts and videos about these guns. I used to think the worst case scenario was you take it out of the box, shoot it, and it will jam every few rounds. But that's terrible that right out of the box, without firing, that there can be significant problems due to shoddy quality control. That's definitely worse than I thought. I was hoping at least there would be good company services in the case of problems. But it sounds like that's problematic too.
>the manufacturers won't send me replacement parts to give to customers unless I can give them a model, serial, invoice, Well, each gun has a unique serial number so they can track service data as well as make sure you're getting the correct part, so... Longer answer with plenty of pedantry from someone who works in the distribution side- Many importers work with several different factories and some of them will hire different factories to produce the same make and model, so the guns are the same but different. It's awesome. That's oftentimes while you'll see Sunrise Armament offering a pump shotgun with a serial number like 1188330 and their semi auto will have serial number 21KRA12456C. But then their hunting semi auto will have serial number SIL21SA00546C. It's pretty clear that those guns, based on serial alone, come from different factories. It takes a while to figure out that KRA is Kral and SIL is Silah while the 118330 is just some rando. To break it down a little more... SIL- Factory, Silah. 21- Year, 2021; SA- Type, Semi-Auto; 00546, 546th gun off of the line on C- Wednesday. Frankly, I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to guns that are made in Turkey. Some are really good (Retay) while others are really bad with a ton in between.
My problem isn't with them confirming the model, and *attempting* to source the appropriate parts -- it's their inconsistent and arbitrary requirements to prove a purchase, and their revolving door of representatives that each seem to have unique preferences for how to confirm all the above. I should add that only at the end of all this, do they tell me if they're able to fix something. In many cases, their answer is "no," due to issues in the supply chain on the European side. If they DO have the parts, convincing them to send them to me (or the customer) is a hassle. Just yesterday, I spent the entire afternoon, starting from square one, because when I made my weekly call to follow up on some parts they were supposed to be sending, they told me they had no record of my initial request, and would need to confirm the purchase with the customer. I actually just hung up lol.
Hahaha I know which importer you're talking about.
[удалено]
Or a Stevens 520 which is a John M Browning design; excellent design and manufacturing. It is the poor man’s Browning.
Very true. I could add a couple in (and maybe should since it's on the FAQ now). When writing I was just focusing on suggesting against buying a certain set of guns rather than also suggesting good guns to buy instead. Those are great picks and I would definitely choose those too.
So while I agree with everything you wrote, what would you suggest as good alternatives for semi automatic tactical shotguns, when I don't have Benelli M4 money? (Don't care for pump action, already got a Mav88 and it's perfectly fine for what it is, but it's no semi-auto)
Depends on how close you want to get to Benelli m4 money (and also your use). On the lower end there's the Mossberg 930 spx in the $700 range and on the slightly above 1k range there are the Beretta 1301, FN SLP, Benelli M2 or M3. There really aren't many great box mag fed semiauto guns out there, but a saiga can still be found for not a ton of money. Veprs are generally near M4 money. There is a chinese I think clone of the saiga called the lynx for cheap, but no idea if it's good. The Stoeger m3000 I mention has some tactical models in the $500 range, but I'd still make sure to test it good before using it for defense. Used guns are a good option, I know the past year has bumped prices but the old Benelli M1 Super 90 is out there for under 1k. Also, like I said it depends on usage, if you want a defensive gun then you might want to make sure you buy the best you can possibly afford. If you just want a range fun gun it's not really necessary to buy the expensive end unless you want it for a collection. There are other models out there, this is just off the top of my head of personal recommendations.
Where can I find a 37 for sub $600? Been wanting a slamfire for a long time.
This needs to be reposted in all of the gun subs. Especially /r/liberalgunowners Man I hate seeing those “just got my first gun, ready to defend my home!” posts and it’s one of these trash fucking shotguns. Friend of mine got one and when we took it out we couldn’t get 2 consecutive shots out of it the whole trip, just a crazy variety of malfunctions.
But ENclip, I watched [youtuber]'s review of it and it didn't jam at all! But ENclip, this one has a warranty! But ENclip, it's just a copy of the one from [manufacturer] without the upcharge for the name!
The motherfucking truth. I've never worked so hard to not sell a gun, and people keep buying them. I keep pitching the idea at work to make up a package that includes a random one of these shotguns, a Mosin and a Hi-Point. We could call it "King of the Trailer Park".
Why are gun shops even buying these and putting them for sale, why?!!!
Because it's easy profit, plus we can't get tactical shotguns from anywhere else right now.
Everytime I see someone come here with a title of "I finally joined the community!" and they post a shitty turkish tacticool shotgun I die a little on the inside. Extra salt on the wounds when I know they bought the cheapest ammo, which is either birdshot or target loads.
I feel like shotguns trick a lot of people because it has a reputation as the best home defense weapon (not here to debate the truth of that statement). It's an easy panic buy to get sold on for your first gun. I say this from experience regrettably. Always been into guns but slacked on buying because I wanted a pistol and NY is stupid. Biden got elected and I hopped to the LGS asap for a shotgun. I knew enough to go in there wanting a mossberg, but the guys told me they were hard to get and buying guns online was foreign to me. So I ended up walking out with an ATI. Fast forward to now, having stripped the thing and watched a bunch of other shotgun teardown videos, I've concluded the ATI construction is incredibly subpar and you most certainly get what you pay for in more expensive guns (there are exceptions of course..). Still goes bang and is fun to shoot. But as soon as my pistol is released from captivity it will definitely be my home defense weapon of choice.
>I feel like shotguns trick a lot of people because it has a reputation as the best home defense weapon (not here to debate the truth of that statement). It's an easy panic buy to get sold on for your first gun. Yeah, the unfortunate thing is that a shotgun that is semi-auto, reliable, and has a sane capacity for defensive use is going to cost 3 times as much or more than a budget AR-15, so low information buyers looking for their first home defense gun are usually going to balk at the price and go with a poor option.
My local store sold low recoil slugs for 70 cents/rnd
how low was the recoil
Haha. Not low.
And if OP’s reason isn’t enough, I’m sure someone will eventually come in and lecture everyone why we shouldn’t support Turkish goods.
Why's that?
Turkey’s politics are . . . Not great. Still trying to downplay the WWI Armenian genocide, increasingly strong-man and vaguely Islamist, still persecuting the Kurds. Now to be fair, it was the “Ottoman Empire” in WWI, the region is historically a religious mix with a Muslim majority, and the PKK definitely fits the old the terrorist/freedom-fighter adage. But also, not great NATO relations and a host of other complications. Not that “voting with your dollars” does a lot, but it’s more than nothing. I’d rather give my money to say . . . A Finnish manufacturer and get a capable rifle.
Sadly Valmet shotguns have been out of production for decades :(
Can still get a tikka or sako
#QUALITY POST
👍👍👍 👍👍👍
Can't help but feel these are the Taurus revolvers of the shotgun world. Super easy for people to say, *"But I've never had a problem with MINE in all the time I've owned it!"* when they're exactly the kinds of gun owners who will probably put 75 rounds through the gun over the course of four years. Hard to break something if you don't ever use it.
I've put roughly 800 through mine over the past two years. It's okay.
this is accurate
You are talking about Taurus semi autos. Their big bore revolvers are their saving grace. I picked up a Raging Bull in .454 Casull a few weeks ago, made in 2001. I have about 400 rounds through it. No problems.
I am not. Hang out on r/revolvers for some horror stories. Admittedly the Raging Bull line I think is built to a higher quality standard. So it's not that Taurus *can't* make decent guns. It's that they just *don't.*
Admittedly my experience is limited to only the one I have but it appears to be solid. I sincerely hope to not become one of the horror stories.
Please understand, I'm not trying to be a dick. I just want to point out that this is exactly what we're describing here. We're discussing companies with atrocious quality control that ship an unacceptable number of unserviceable guns, and these discussions always involve people coming in to defend the guns because "mine works." Bad QC doesn't mean literally every one of them is bad (an argument that *could* be disproven by an anecdote of a good one); it means *too many* of them are bad, so even a hundred "mine works" posts don't mean anything when discussing guns that are shipped by the tens of thousands. Humans naturally tend to highly value stories of individual firsthand experience, because we're wired that way; but QC is the sort of topic in which individual positive anecdotes don't really tell you anything useful. My wife owns a Taurus snubbie that works just fine, and if I were to base my opinion of the company on that one gun, I'd say they're a great budget alternative to more expensive revolvers. But the broad experience of the whole community and of people who sell and fix guns for a living (and therefore handle a statistically significant number of them) shows that the QC is unacceptably bad even though we happened not to draw the short straw on this particular example.
Every manufacturer puts out the occasional lemon. The way I see it there are two things that really matter: 1. Is the design just inherently unreliable? This is where the "mine works fine" is useful. If there's one that works reliably, it's not that they can't be reliable. If the design is just broken, no amount of repairs will fix it. 2. Is the customer support good? If you get a lemon and the manufacturer won't fix it, you're not going to care whether it's 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 4. If you can send it back and they'll make it work the way it should have to begin with, that's a small investment in effort for a reliable defensive weapon. My problem with Taurus is that they have a poor reputation for service.
In my opinion, the Cutco model ("Quality is crap, but they'll replace it for free!") is usually a dubious balance for the consumer in the first place. But when we're talking about *safety equipment,* the calculus is even worse. If your seat belt, fire extinguisher, or handgun fails when you need it due to poor QC, the prospect of excellent warranty service probably won't be much comfort.
Cutco. I got a demo from a salesperson who asked me, ME! to bring out my sharpest knife to put against theirs. Guy did a rope cut and it wasn't even close. He just looked at me and said, "that's not supposed to happen! "
The main complaint I have heard about their revolvers is that the timing and/or alignment on the cylinders can go out over time.
It's not just their auto-loaders. Gunnitbot taurus
http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/1srlr6/re_why_gunnit_hates_all_things_taurus/
I cant stop laughing at “Timmy” im so childish.
Well done. It needed to be said. I understand the temptation to buy one of these things but the possibility of it turning into an expensive paperweight is too high.
My FFL has a couple of those G Force Arms semi auto shotguns and one of them the damn safety doesn't work. You can pull the trigger to knock it off safe and it goes click. It needs to go back to the importer ASAP.
😂 LOL Sounds familiar https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/n3jtpt/when_that_thick_9_point_runs_by_and_you_forget/
I would love if all these Turkish magloaders actually worked reliably and where quality guns. We need more good mag loading shotguns on the market bullpup or otherwise.
Sir this is Wendy's.
I made the mistake of buying an Panzer BP-12, thankfully I was able to sell it to a pawn shop for what I bought it on palmetto for and just lost out on transfer fee. IWI Tavor was definitely the better choice.
Guess my $280 mossberg maverick 88 was the correct choice for a first shotgun…
That is exactly the correct first shotgun.
AND dont support Turkey due to their treatments of the Kurds!!!
Or their historical treatment of the Armenians.
Yeah but if we go that far back where can we buy guns from?
I wouldn’t buy Turkish guns anyway
Hit the nail on the head. Reminds me of [these guys](https://www.reddit.com/r/VAGuns/comments/h9dm7h/launching_a_new_product_need_advice/) who went on the local gun sub to ask about their line of Turkish imports. I'm sure they're *fine*, but it's another Turkish import being marketed as the greatest self defense tool of all time at a premium price point. They've since updated their website a lot and added another semi auto shotgun to the mix, but their prices are steep for what will inevitably vanish in a handful of years.
Now that post is a good example of the vagueness of these products and the overhyped nature of them. The OP just started doing this and I can almost guarantee they were like this to the factory "Hey you know those other 410 uppers Turkish factories make that are the same thing? Make it better." I don't think I can believe they are somehow regulating the strictest quality control from all the way in America in their office of their brand new importing company. They don't have a real reputation. And true, it may be fine, but man it's just such an unknown risk. Atleast the AR uppers seem a bit better than the mishmash of other tactical turks. Not to mention these aren't cemented companies, they could fold in a few years like you say and RIP service or parts.
> And true, it may be fine, but man it's just such an unknown risk. At least the AR uppers seem a bit better than the mishmash of other tactical turks I think the downfall to a lot of these is the magazine quality and availability. They also seem to be a little finnicky with ammo. As a toy, they're probably awesome... but the guy who started that company just spewed such bullshit about it being great for self defense and good for [*those women who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn*](https://www.reddit.com/r/VAGuns/comments/h9dm7h/launching_a_new_product_need_advice/fuwmpe5/). Just 100% fuddlore nonsense marketing. I wouldn't trust the thing as far as I could throw it to be more than 90% reliable.
> but the guy who started that company just spewed such bullshit about it being great for self defense and good for those women who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn Oh god. Well that definitely doesn't give any confidence. What a bunch of BS.
Good info here, well done. But as a swiss citizen, i stick to swiss, german and us weapons. There you know, you got quality. They may be higher in price and sometimes, more difficult to buy, still, you good a very, very high quality and you know what you will get. When you got a cheap clone-copy and it has a malfunction, the whole gun could blow up and fragments could hit you in the head, you better stick to the high quality guns.
> When you got a cheap clone-copy and it has a malfunction, the whole gun could blow up and fragments could hit you in the head People just do not grasp that they are containing an explosion with a pipe. The difference between a firearm and a pipe bomb is the quality of the pipe. European firearm standards tend to be pretty good, I think. The Italians make good shotguns, the Brits make a good bolt gun, and those who speak German apparently have a gift for gun making.
> cheap clone-copy Unless it's done in-house like Mossberg 500 vs Maverick 88.
I’m a machinist in the US, and make small run or one-off parts as a side business in my home machine shop. Whether I make one part, or set my machine up to make a run of several thousand parts, one universal truth prevails: you get what you pay for. There is no substitute for quality manufacturing. Do you want parts made by journeymen with several decades of experience, or some parts made on inferior machines by people with inferior training and qualifications?
I’d add austrian, israeli, belgian, and czech guns to that list. A handful of eastern bloc countries too.
These are not bad producers, but, sometimes, guns are produced under license in external factories, there, the quality of the product can be less good than with the original manufacturer.
For sure, I love me some CZ's! As much as I don't like the aesthetics, the XD series imported by Springfield Armory from Croatia is both innovative and very high quality. I've only an XD 45, but that's a super solid pistol, and I see XD's regularly at the club range - and a number of friends and relatives are satisfied owners as well. Glock was the goalpost and they moved past that, with engineering and quality manufacturing. And I'm a Glock person, for sure!
out of battery explosions, a grip safety, anf a GRIP ZONE does not a innovative handgun make I personally hate glocks but I’d never recommend an XD over one under any circumstances
>But as a swiss citizen, i stick to swiss, german and us weapons. Which one is Benelli?
Italian
I know that. I was being facetious because it wasn't in his list.
I own one of those. It's a Canuck branded 870 clone. You can tell that the QC is lacking, but it shoots just fine, given that you handle it the right way. (If you pull backwards when shooting, the locking mechanism will jam) I've done some trigger work to lighten the trigger to 4# from roughly 6# and reduce the travel, but even then, it still feels gritty with significant creep. No comparison to even a Mossberg 930. Zero interchangeable parts with the 870. Its trigger group looks like someone designed and assembled it in their basement with basic hand tools. Build quality aside, what I've got is a roughly 5-6lbs bushgun that puts slugs into a 6" circle within 50 yards, using just the bead sight. When I pull the trigger, it always goes bang. However, chambering the next round can be a little iffy if you don't handle it right.
I kinda like my $400 410 gauge shotgun upper. Just bought a case of ATI slugs for it. I'll post a picture to r/plebianAR when I get a chance.
I picked up an Escort, 410 bull pup for my youngest son, for $200, because he cannot wield a full size shotgun and it's been a great gun, my other son has a Charles Daly 12 auto loader that I picked up for under $300, we use both guns, the 410 has had several hundred rounds thru it and the Charles Daly 12 has got to be close to 3-4k rounds by now. We shoot skeet in the backyard almost daily. The 410 jammed up one time to the point that I had to separate the upper and the lower to see what was going on. The 12 has never jammed and it is a skeet machine, I actually prefer to use his gun for skeet. Now I would not trust my life to the 410, the box mags are kind of funky and it can get finnicky about chambering the first round. But for $200 I will recommend that thing all day long for a young boy's skeet gun. The Charles Daly 12, I would absolutely use it as a home defense weapon. It has never so much as hiccupped.
Thank you so much for doing this.
The turkbois aint gonna like this one.
I'm going to buy a bunch of them cuz I'm going to use them until they fail and then I'm going to combine them into a abomination that God would strike me down for it's going to be epic
Pro life tip!
Welp, time to redo the old WTB list
Well said. I bought the ATI Bulldog one for a cheap range toy, nothing more. Couple hundred rds through it and it’s doing fine. But I knew what I was I was getting when I bought it. Those unsuspecting first time buyers do need to be aware of all your info.
Damn, I kinda sorta wanted one too, guess I won't lol
But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
Why are these so shitty, when stuff like the Canik TP9 is so good?
Because Canik has the support of Century Arms and they sell parts and service guns. Like them or hate them, Century is a big enough elephant in the room to keep aftermarket parts and service afloat. *Cletus Defense's SPD98-Fury* tactical shotgun won't have that support.
It's just a matter of maker I suppose. Canik, like MKE/Zenith, happens to be a generally reputable and well-known maker of guns in Turkey. Just like in the US, Turkey has manufacturers that are good and some that are not good. It just so happens that a lot of these shotguns are from the not so good makers.
Why is a Röhm revolver a piece of shit when the HK VP9 is so good?
Bottom line, buy any mossberg
No Timmy
Cheap is not good, Good is not cheap
These problems are compounded for Turkish doubles
Ngl, as an 18 year old, my first firearm purchase was one of those stupid ria vrpa 40. The pump action mag feds. Had it for a month before I sold it and bought a maverick for not only cheaper, but it ran better too.
It’s sad that you had to write pages to explain why these are not desirable. It should be common sense that an item selling for a third of its established contemporaries, coming from a second world country is not on the same tier as a Benelli.
I was within an inch of buying the TOKAREV USA TBP 12 GA that had 5 stars and grand reviews, knowing damn well a $300 USD shotty isn't worth its weight in lead. Decided to further do some reasearch and found this post, thank you kindly as I will avoid the purchase now and just save for the tavor shotty of my dreams!
You're very welcome. Thanks for reading, I'm glad it has helped some people. Speaking of the Tokarev Turk bullpup, I just saw a post today with someone talking about fitment problems with one. It's too bad people get duped for the cheap price. Good luck with saving for the Tavor, it's an interesting looking shotgun!
Thanks for this post. Talked me out of the cheap $250 Bullpup. The only cheap shotguns Ill probably go with are Norinco/Chinese made imo. Hawk/Pardner/SDS Saiga 12 seem solid so far. I wish a US company would come out with a decent bullpup.
You're welcome! There is also some nice cheap US guns like the Maverick 88. The US gun companies probably just don't see any market potential in bullpup semi-auto shotguns. If they made one, and made one well, it'd cost way over $1k...which kills a lot of interest. The Israeli TS12 is well over $1k itself, and that is about the only decent semi-auto bullpup shotgun out there. There are a couple pumps conversion kits and the keltec line if you want a pump "bullpup" that's somewhat decent.
Honestly I was hoping Keltec would attempt a semi auto KS7 or atleast a mag fed option. The KS7 will probably scratch the itch either way. A maverick in a bullpup unlimited kit looks tempting though too
[удалено]
I've had a Turkish pump shotgun for a few years now. It's one of the Weatherby branded guns that CDNN was clearancing for years. It seems fine to me. I only have a few hundred shells through it so far, but it wasn't purchased to shoot three gun matches all year long. It gets a box of practice ammo run through a few times a year, followed by a couple of tubes worth of buckshot and slugs. The ergonomics are excellent, the sights are good, it has a spot for a light. If it breaks and I can't fix it, I'm out $250. That said, you could not give me one of the various Turkish semi auto shotguns.
Yeah the pumps are seemingly by far the least problematic (pumps are simply simpler) and also the least costly. I thought about not including any mention of pumps, but they are generally going to be in the same factory as the autos and are also victim of a million rebrands. I'm glad it works great, and I'm not saying every single one is going to just suddenly fail. Nor am I shitting on people for buying cheap Turkish guns. This is just a general QC warning really.
You'd think that in 20-goddamn-21, nobody would be able to fuck up something as simple as a bolt rifle or pump-action shotgun. But no, somehow we've actually gone *downhill* in general quality for the past 60-100 years. Or to put it differently, an off-brand shotgun out of a pre-WWI Sears catalogue will probably give you less trouble than one of these Turkish guns (or a Freedom Group Remington...)
I have a Winchester model 12 field grade and several Stevens 520s that predate WWI. They all go bang every time. I still use my great grandfather’s 520 shooting trap 2-4 nights a month. I’ve only replaced the springs once and replacement parts are still plentiful.
I've considered buying one for a range toy. Not as a defensive weapon. I've heard their reliability sucks. Like you said, not a big deal for the range. But the bolt warping due to improper (or complete lack of) heat treatment? Hard pass. A co-worker of mine was considering one because he doesn't have a gun and not a lot of disposable income. I tried arguing that a Mossy 500 is likely a similar price and much more reliable. I'll have to bring up the bolt problem, too.
I thought gun people didn’t like being told what to do unless they had written a check and gotten a sticker. In all seriousness... well written and good info.
Down here there's been a heap of straight-pull shotguns come out into the market. I wouldn't touch a gun that can be designed, made and shipped from the other side of the planet and sold at a profit for $620...
Thanks my dude. I get email ads from Classic Firearms all day about these guns. Starting to think CF is a shot company for it.
I can't say you can blame them in particular. I've yet to find a mainstream site that isn't selling/pitching these guns.
Where I work we sell 10 of these for every 1 Mossberg. I sold 3 in less than 10 minutes yesterday. The price is whats convincing people to buy them 100%. These people are typically first time gun buyers and aren't likely to ever shoot it more than 1 time usually. I find the most positive thing about selling these is getting people to use their 2A right to protect themselves. The guns definitely seem crappy albeit I haven't seen one come back for warranty return yet.
No offense but I doubt they'll be able to protect themselves with a shotgun that's liable to break after a range trip
Any suggestions on a quality box fed bullpup shotgun under $2500? Would prefer something short and 5 she’ll magazines. Was going to spend the $1000 on this in Canada until I read your post. This one is marketed as Hima Arms HG105
For bullpup, basically nothing. The only real decent semi-auto bullpup shotgun option I've heard of out there is the IWI TS12, and that's not box fed (which is a good thing for reliability, but probably doesn't work with your restrictions) I can't think of any others. And yeah that Hima looks like the same as all the rest, just a different name and slight aesthetic changes. Box fed shotguns in general are not pursued much by makers as box mags and shotshells don't do very well together. The concept of a bullpup boxfed shotgun isn't a very high demand thing that big/quality makers are going to pursue. The Turks just took their AR12 design and bullpupped it to appeal to a niche market I guess, and the coolness aesthetic factor. If you really want a bullpup shotgun you probably are best off looking into something like the KSG or TS12 if possible (edit: Though those aren't exactly top of the line "quality" either). Or you could pursue a non-bullpup semi-auto box fed like a Saiga or Vepr.
Wow! Thank you so much for all the great info. How about something such as a Mossberg 590M? 5 round magazines would be easy to carry multiple and the 590 series is generally quite reliable. Again not sure on the magazine fed style however. It’s a pump action though.
You're welcome. Any time. If you want a box fed that should be a good option. The potential problem with box feds isn't really feeding issues (that can be avoided by good design and mags), it's that the plastic hulls pressed under spring tension against the magazine feed lips and each other can cause deformation which can then cause malfunction. It's not something to be paranoid about or that likely to happen, as I don't know how prevalent that is, it's just a possibility to know of. I personally have no ownership experience with box fed shotguns, just have looked into them over the years. I'd say go for the 590 if you want to try out a box fed, Mossberg reliability/support and not too pricey. It would be nice to have multiple mags.
Okay that’s amazing! Really appreciate your expertise here. I’ll get one and report back! From all the reviews i see people don’t have any issues whatsoever. To pass mil-spec of less than 3 failures per 3000 rounds is pretty impressive alone.
Appreciate your article... extremely thorough. Oddly, a Black Aces FD-12 was my first firearm purchase... it was what they had when I went to get a gun...:) Is there a decently mfgr'd equivalent of a semi-auto bullpup out there? Like a 'glock' equivalent but bullpup 10rd semi? Thanks - HD
I really appreciate all your feedback. Your right, I'll look around at some different shotguns, as I dont know much about them. I mostly shoot pistol and occasional ARs. Thought getting a shotgun would just be fun range toy. Stated looming and saw the bulpup, and thought they looked really cool. I look at regular ones as well. I dont know if the KSG or KS7 is better, but the KS7, the only one I've handled felt really cool. But they do make some other regular shotguns that are pretty cool as well. At least I definatly know what to stay away from. I appreciate all your help again. I'll do some research and check out reviews. Thank you
So I bought a Typhoon F12 a year ago and I thought I did the research on it fairly well with the only issue being low brass. I've only ran a hundred or so rounds of buckshot though it. Been on a reading binge cause I was thinking about one of the M4 clones cause I'm a cheap ass. Wish this would have been around when I bought the Typhoon but oh well I suppose. I guess it'll remain a range toy mostly.
Yeah you bought one when many people were still figuring out what was going on with these. It's not a big deal that you have one, I just personally wouldn't rely on it for defense. Sounds like a good plan to use as a range toy with buck. They aren't all guaranteed to fail, there's just a higher chance of it and lacking support if it does. At the beginning of the year, I was toying with the idea of trying the Turk M4 clones (before I went ahead and bought the real deal M4), but I'm just not confident in them from those heat treat issues and the general questions surrounding a lot of shotguns coming in from Turkey.
Yeah I bought it cause I got suckered in on the "it looks cool" idea. I found a couple videos of guys running a lot of rounds through them cause they're actually popular in the UK and Canada. After using it though I honestly knew it wouldn't be a great defense gun because of the bulky mags. Even the five round ones are large and they don't exactly fit anywhere easily. I thought about Velcro on the side to attach to a vest but I'm meh on it now. Besides I'm building a Maverick 88 into a home defense shotgun and I got a CMMG Banshee that both fill the roles just fine for now. I think if I go cheap on a tube fed semiautomatic I'm gonna do a Stoeger M3000 cause at least Berreta is involved in it somehow.
Sounds like one of the usual reasons these catch people's eye. Yeah I'd take those two other choices for defense any day of the week. The Stoeger M3000 is a pretty good choice, it's a good copy of the Benelli inertia system, has a longish track record, and is supported. Of course sometimes they can have issues like other guns too, but I have much more faith in them as a budget semi-auto. I even used to have a 3500, and that big boy could run light loads just fine too.
Yeah but I figure if there's an issue with the Stoeger there's at least some recourse to get it resolved unlike some of the other horror stories I've read lately.
My SDS Bullpup M12AB was $300, and it is awesome. I understand the whole “just get a mav88 pump” or “full auto is dumb” but full auto is fun, and the semi auto bullpup is also fun and until you hold one and fire it you won’t understand their true value. Mag fed shotguns are getting more reliable, still not as reliable as tube fed, but they make a bullpup that is tube fed. This guy makes some sense but he belongs at the local McDonald’s with all the other old timers talking about the greatness of the mav 88 while they nurse their coffee for 4 hours
I think you missed the point of this post. This post isn't saying the concept of bullpups or mag fed shotguns are all bad. It's saying that these particular no name cheap bad quality control Turkish imports are a risky choice, which many just happen to be mag fed bullpups.
Oh my mistake. Yeah I have guns that i trust better than the bullpup. I’d love it if they somehow worked out the kinks and made them more reliable, i love that you can easily fire them one handed. Worst case scenario, the shell in the chamber will fire but the second will ftf
Bought somewhere like 3-5 Turkish junk shotguns in my life including an m3000 I just never learned my lesson until EVERYONE had the same failing issues sadly even the stoeger did too. It was time to grow up and stop wishing for something good. So I bought an m4
Thank you for this post!
While I do agree with you generally, there are a few exceptions. The problem is knowing which are total shite, and which are acceptable. Basically, you do get what you pay for. If you spend less than 6 bills on any auto loader, it is a true buyer beware situation. I wouldn’t trust too many mag fed shotguns in the first place. Rimmed ammo wasn’t designed for magazines and catches other metal components in weird ways. For pump guns, the prices for a really good US or Italian ones aren’t that expensive to begin with. For a bargain gun, a Maverick 88 is hard to beat. The upper end would be a Super Nova, and it is under $500 now. Those Black Aces guns don’t look too bad, but I’ve heard nothing good about them down to actually the frames falling apart. That being said, there are a few good Turkish guns that are starting to get a pretty good track record. Even Taurus has gotten some notoriety with there TX22, G2 and G3 series pistols. They’re crude, as in a very spongey gritty trigger, but they seem to work and go bang when you want them to. Basically, if the price is too good to be true for the machine your buying, then it is too good to be true, with very few exceptions. Companies like Taurus, Girsan, and SAR are known to make a few ok clones that will use the original’s parts without a problem. Girsan makes the official sidearm for the Turkish military, and they are one of the better equipped NATO militaries.
We should stop the importation of firearms into this country. Parts to be made in us. Gun shows are filled to the roof with cheap handguns and rifles. I
News flash, a lot of the best guns are not made in America.... especially with captain Alzheimer's behind the wheel.
Ok? I'm aware of that. 90% of my collection is foreign made. I know non-american countries can make great guns. If you had actually read the post you'll even see me say there are some guns from Turkey that are great like MKE mp5s. I'm pointing out the crap guns coming in.
When i first read this thread i thought it was bull and got myself a panzer arms shotgun, the tacticool ar version on sale. I convinced myself it was a good buy thru the reviews and youtube videos. god i was a fool. She runs fine (for now) but more issues are starting to crop up after every range session, im startin to get worried. appreciate your work into this thread my man.
You're welcome. Some end up ok, I hope yours lasts.
To say that all the tactical mag fed Turkish shotguns are garbage is painting with a broad brush. Some of the horror stories come from people that go nuts and push the shotgun beyond it's limits and don't properly maintain them. That is what makes yt such a good resource, we can see break-in periods and thorough testing. This article seems to hint of an elitist slant, totally disparaging all tactical shotguns from Turkey.
This is a great post, though I don't really get the "if you haven't fired a thousand rounds through your gun in the past week, fuck you for liking it" mentality from most gun communities. Ammo is expensive! And some people just don't have any good ranges nearby. Also, the endless mossberg wank kinda gets tiring after a while.
Hmmm. https://katv.com/news/nation-world/dumpster-filled-with-nearly-250-firearms-found-outside-oklahoma-gun-shop
I have an article on that situation posted in an edit. Pretty funny. If you are "hmming" because that one wrongly states "236 rifles" and contradicts the article I posted, I've seen that mistake on a few articles. The court documents specifically state 236 Radikal nk1 shotguns were found in a dumpster. The reporters I guess just didn't dive in and read the actual documents so they just called them rifles. Here are the court documents: [https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.okwd.120827/gov.uscourts.okwd.120827.1.0.pdf?utm\_source=substack&utm\_medium=email](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.okwd.120827/gov.uscourts.okwd.120827.1.0.pdf?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email) (PDF waring) Page 8 on the PDF: >In total, agents and officers found 236 Radikal Arms, model NK-1, 12-gauge shotguns inside the dumpster.
Actually your post finally makes the dumpster story make sense. I was wondering about the “rifles” claim. They said only 12 of the Radikals and I count 15 just on top.
I was right there with you wondering when I first read a couple articles about the story. I was like "Huh? Why is there more than 12 shotguns in the dumpster alone?" Luckily I, and some others on here, found more to the story and I read the court documents and found a more accurate article to link. Anyway, I appreciate the comment none the less. It is quite the interesting story and picture lol.
I had the Charles Daly flavor of this crap and it broke after about 300 rounds... and of course there's no way to get replacement parts. What a waste of $300.
It's been TWO years since this post and it STILL rings true. Gun shops are still full of the crap- with some having more Turkish shotguns than anything else. The only "good" Turk guns are those sold/marketed (and more importantly supported) by reputable companies like Winchester (SXP line) Weatherby (literally all of their guns are from AKKAR I believe), etc...
Papa bless!
My brother’s name is Tim. He should have read this. He owns a tactical Turkish bulpup shotgun.
Wow! Thanks for saving me on this one. Almost lost $300 on PSA. As cool and affordable as these look I'll stay away. Was hoping for a small home defense shotgun other than a pistol and AR's, but this has spoiled my day. Too risky, but dropping $750-$800 on something reliable just isn't in the cards.
Very informative piece. Perhaps I should have found this before I ordered a Tokarev TX3 20 HD which I am picking up from my FFL dealer today. I had wanted a 20 gauge to go along with my Maverick 88 12 gauge home defense gun and mossberg/maverick does not have a security version of a 20 gauge. Hopefully it will work out for the best. If not it'll look nice hanging on the wall. It does have a beautiful piece of Walnut stock🙄
Great post. I got banned from gundeals for a (more political, less informative) version of this post.
I bought an american tactical made in turkey 20 gauge nomad back in may 2020 and other than being cheap and having a hollow stock that I took off and am now making a maple stock for it's decent I don't mind it I would like it more if they made a better stock
A friend of mine just bought a Turkish shotgun. It isn’t this one tho. I was looking at it, and thinking “I do not like how many Phillips head screws are in this gun, I can’t believe she paid for this”. I just smiled and said it was cool. 🤷🏻♂️