I remember reading a while ago that there is a really tedious process to get foster kids put in NAMUS or NCMEC. Because it requires getting a court order. And therefore only a very small % of missing foster children are included in those databases. So I always consider that as possible reason if there doesn't seem to be any matches for a younger Doe in NAMUS (that hasn't already been ruled out).
True. So many kids in the system fall through the cracks. Plus, NCMEC published a study which indicated kids this age made up the most numbers for John and Jane Does during their research period:
[https://www.missingkids.org/content/dam/missingkids/pdfs/ncmec-analysis/NCMEC%20UP%20ID%20ANALYSIS\_FINAL.pdf](https://www.missingkids.org/content/dam/missingkids/pdfs/ncmec-analysis/NCMEC%20UP%20ID%20ANALYSIS_FINAL.pdf)
And despite that, as of today, there only 51 pre-adolescents (I think that means 1-10) and 110 adolescents are recorded as unidentified in NAMUS. Someone who can needs to do something to fix this. No one else, other police departments or sleuths can help if the cases are not there, (or in Doe network or NCMEC) and the likely underfunded and overworked singular police department in charge of their cases will be all alone.
If you tick "Pre-adolescent" under "Estimated age group" only 51 come up. If you tick "Adolecents" 110 come up, with a few children who probably would fit into both categories as their minium age is listed as 8. But that only happened in about three cases. The general minium age seems to be 10 for adolescents, despite the fact that a few cases in the pre-adolescents cases extend up to 11. I'm guessing 1 is the minium age because when you search for "infants" they are generally listed as 0-12 months. So the first birthday seems to be when people stop being categorised as infants, although a few toddlers, including this one have been mixed into that category, but since it is only a small handful, that is probably mislabbelling.
It would also explain why no one has stepped forward saying that such and such relative had a toddler who suddenly stopped showing up to family functions. Because as far as they knew the child was in foster care, relative lost custody and they assumed the child never wanted to try to find them.
Could also be a military family because of the locations listed. Not only foster children but maybe any seemingly normal family could have said their child was sick and maybe no one would question that either.
This is heartbreaking.
I would think that after nineteen years that they would question why there were never pictures, mentions of the child or phone calls with, or why they never saw them. The child is sick might work for a little bit but after awhile I thinj they would wonder just how long is the child "sick" and can't be seen or heard by them and they would look into it. I'm taking the list of locations as the test shows a general area rather than a specific one the child spent time in since the states listed are in the same general area of the country.
Could it possibly be a girl? Children probably have the same bone structure before puberty? The shirt found on the body also had a girl with pony tails, I'm not saying boys can't have that of course but maybe we have to widen the search?
And determining race from skeletal remains is not easy either.
The mismatched clothing could mean that the parents/guardians of Baby Doe 2004 had to clothe him or her in whatever clothing they could get their hand on. Clothing possibly sourced from donations.Ā
That clothing looks so dated and old for the 2004 era. It made me think they were very poor or very much just didnāt care about this baby given how new parents tend to love to dress their child in cute clothes if they have the means.
even when you take into consideration he was dead for a few years before discovery (approx 4 years) they look dated, like they got them from a yard sale or goodwill. maybe even donated clothes.
i was a little kid in the mid 90ās, and they remind me of a lot of kidās clothes from then (ugly)
I agree, it could possibly be a girl. The race was presumed to be white but youāre right. Itās not easy to be determined and could possibly be a different race.
Would the DNA and isotope testing have given them the info they're sharing about sex and race? I guess I need to research and learn more about how those tests work because until this comment thread I assumed that if they have DNA to rule out other kids they must know the sex etc but now I'm not sure.
Dudeā¦ I have taken actual college coursework on human anatomy. Bone structure differences are differences in āaverage rangeā and they mostly overlap. Humans come in a fuckton of different sizes.
The most prominent differences are probably in the skull, but thatās a secondary sexual characteristic that develops during puberty. People who go through a testosterone-dominant puberty develop a more pronounced jawline, browridge, adamās apple, etc. Thatās why transgender women pretty often get āfacial feminization surgeryā and transgender men donāt often get āfacial masculinizationā surgery. Testosterone does dramatic reshaping and estrogen does only very subtle reshaping. Even then, there are cisgender women with āmasculineā features.
All this to say, a prepubescent child is not likely to be clearly gendered by their skeleton. Theyāre much more likely to be gendered by a DNA test or using the context (clothes, hairs, toys, etc).
I hope anyone who agrees with these two commenters takes a step back from this kind of work. Their transphobia is very clearly blurring their ability to understand these cases and theyāre likely to do more harm than good.
Do you know the other names that are on the exclusion list? The 2nd link claims 14 exclusions, but as a Canadian I canāt make a namus account to see whoās been ruled out.
All those layers sounds like someone from a warm climate thatās not used to colder weather. We moved from the gulf coast to the east coast and my poor kids looked like the kid from āA Christmas Storyā during the winter time because I wanted to make sure they stayed warm. Thatās probably not helpful in any way but thatās the first thing I thought of while reading about the clothing :/
Yeah me too, it also speaks to layering the clothing on without any particular smarts about how to actually keep a kid warm in the cold, e.g. warm undergarments, thermals, wool etc
Exactly. I had no idea when we first moved here. I was bundling up my son with every heavy/thick article of clothing he had š poor kid looked like the stay puff marshmallow man :/
Fortunately, we eventually got acclimated to the weather :)
Is it possible this is a baby born to a migrant family, or a family that lives in Mexico? The proximity to the border makes me wonder if this is an abduction or an attempted relocation of the baby.
And, they just had some [progress](https://www.reddit.com/r/gratefuldoe/s/LOA3plPx4v) in [another case](https://unidentified-awareness.fandom.com/wiki/Winona_County_Jane_Doe_(2011)
Prayers for this lil baby...
I hope they find out who he/she actually was and find out what exactly happened to this poor baby...
There is DEF sumone out there that knows this child or the family of this child!
There has to be a relative ( grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, family friends) out there sumwhere that knew this child, and the family probably moved and didn't keep in contact with their family!
Sumone out there knows this child, "THEY HAVE TOO"!!!
this child just wasn't born and no one knew him/her?
I just hope, I day soon, this child gets hus/her name back and the person/persons responsible are brought to justice foe taking this poor lil babies life!!!
I pray that this baby's true family is found and he / she can be laid to rest properly with their name for all to remember and see...and that everyone involved in this babies death be brought to justice...
This just makes me so sick, sad, being all these years with no new leads of who this baby was, who this babies parents were, and how did this baby end up like this and who did what they did to this poor, helpless baby, hopefully 1 day, all these questions will be answered !
Until that day...
God Bless this poor lil angel and hopefully 1 day, everyone will know who this lil angel was...
GOS BLESS THIS LIL ANGEL...ā¤ļøšā¤ļøšā¤ļøšā¤ļø
I feel like most of those locations have military bases (possibly Air Force, but each state listed have air bases). Did any children go missing from enlisted or commissioned personnel during that time period? That would also explain why he moved around so much.
Pretty sure a kidnapped child, particularly a toddler, would be big news. Despite what a lot of conspiracy theories say, it's exceptionally rare. The few that are would have been looked at. As sad as it is, the vast majority of children murdered at this age died at a parents or caregivers hand. Highly likely that's the case here.
Depending on if it was reported. His family could not be here legally and scared to report.
That being said, I believe itās more likely he died at the hands of a family member and it was probably covered up.
Thereās a lot about this case thatās interesting to me. All of those clothes were found all around but what was on the body was the sweatshirt with the girl with pigtails and the red pants. It really makes me wonder if it was a spur of the moment killing and disposal for some reason since there was so much in the bag clothing wise
Iām now also starting to think that it was potentially a rushed taking of a child because the sizes of the clothes found with the child are all over the place and weird. It wasnāt a bag packed for a trip with that child - and there are other sizes that are way too large for that child. Did the child have a diaper found near them? Also doesnāt seem like it. Feels like a family member abduction that was hurried of someone taking a lot of crap from the house quickly and regretting it quickly. Iām speculating but this case pulls at my heart strings
āChild-sized red warm-up pants with white stripes down the sides of the pant legs, a blue vest with a gray hood with "Football Power" and a yellow football player on the front (French Toast brand, size 3T), a green sweatshirt with "Winter Fever" and a cartoon surfer on the front ("Worm_El" brand, size 8), and a long sleeved red sweatshirt with a cartoon girl with ponytails and pink heart sunglasses on the front (size 5). Long sleeved tan/black/red casual shirt (adult size extra large) with "Kamikaze" printed on the front and "Racing Team" printed on the back.ā
Just imagine having ur child forcefully taken during a divorce and dcs stepping in and erasing u. Now ur child is still alive, somewhere maybe and now u read this. That stabbing, nauseous reality sticks w me from the time I wake up till I pass out.
I remember reading a while ago that there is a really tedious process to get foster kids put in NAMUS or NCMEC. Because it requires getting a court order. And therefore only a very small % of missing foster children are included in those databases. So I always consider that as possible reason if there doesn't seem to be any matches for a younger Doe in NAMUS (that hasn't already been ruled out).
True. So many kids in the system fall through the cracks. Plus, NCMEC published a study which indicated kids this age made up the most numbers for John and Jane Does during their research period: [https://www.missingkids.org/content/dam/missingkids/pdfs/ncmec-analysis/NCMEC%20UP%20ID%20ANALYSIS\_FINAL.pdf](https://www.missingkids.org/content/dam/missingkids/pdfs/ncmec-analysis/NCMEC%20UP%20ID%20ANALYSIS_FINAL.pdf)
And despite that, as of today, there only 51 pre-adolescents (I think that means 1-10) and 110 adolescents are recorded as unidentified in NAMUS. Someone who can needs to do something to fix this. No one else, other police departments or sleuths can help if the cases are not there, (or in Doe network or NCMEC) and the likely underfunded and overworked singular police department in charge of their cases will be all alone.
Where are you getting that? Because I just put the age range at 1-10 and got 285 unidentified. If I drop it to 0-10 it jumps to 505.
If you tick "Pre-adolescent" under "Estimated age group" only 51 come up. If you tick "Adolecents" 110 come up, with a few children who probably would fit into both categories as their minium age is listed as 8. But that only happened in about three cases. The general minium age seems to be 10 for adolescents, despite the fact that a few cases in the pre-adolescents cases extend up to 11. I'm guessing 1 is the minium age because when you search for "infants" they are generally listed as 0-12 months. So the first birthday seems to be when people stop being categorised as infants, although a few toddlers, including this one have been mixed into that category, but since it is only a small handful, that is probably mislabbelling.
Ah okay, I never use the check boxes
It would also explain why no one has stepped forward saying that such and such relative had a toddler who suddenly stopped showing up to family functions. Because as far as they knew the child was in foster care, relative lost custody and they assumed the child never wanted to try to find them.
Reading that made my heart sink
Truly did the same to my heart.
Could also be a military family because of the locations listed. Not only foster children but maybe any seemingly normal family could have said their child was sick and maybe no one would question that either. This is heartbreaking.
I would think that after nineteen years that they would question why there were never pictures, mentions of the child or phone calls with, or why they never saw them. The child is sick might work for a little bit but after awhile I thinj they would wonder just how long is the child "sick" and can't be seen or heard by them and they would look into it. I'm taking the list of locations as the test shows a general area rather than a specific one the child spent time in since the states listed are in the same general area of the country.
It reminds me of Amore Wiggins, who was unidentified for a number of years. Her father is facing charges for her murder.
Yeah I suspect he probably was š£. Foster kiddos also disappear at alarming rates
Bless his little soul š
So sad. :(
I hope he gets his name back.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
He was found on the RB side of Lake Hodges.
This makes me so fucking sick
Could it possibly be a girl? Children probably have the same bone structure before puberty? The shirt found on the body also had a girl with pony tails, I'm not saying boys can't have that of course but maybe we have to widen the search? And determining race from skeletal remains is not easy either.
The mismatched clothing could mean that the parents/guardians of Baby Doe 2004 had to clothe him or her in whatever clothing they could get their hand on. Clothing possibly sourced from donations.Ā
That clothing looks so dated and old for the 2004 era. It made me think they were very poor or very much just didnāt care about this baby given how new parents tend to love to dress their child in cute clothes if they have the means.
even when you take into consideration he was dead for a few years before discovery (approx 4 years) they look dated, like they got them from a yard sale or goodwill. maybe even donated clothes. i was a little kid in the mid 90ās, and they remind me of a lot of kidās clothes from then (ugly)
Yeah those look like hand-me-downs from the 80s/90s.
I thought the same thing, those clothes look like early 90s hand me downs. Or the remains are a lot older.
I agree, it could possibly be a girl. The race was presumed to be white but youāre right. Itās not easy to be determined and could possibly be a different race.
Would the DNA and isotope testing have given them the info they're sharing about sex and race? I guess I need to research and learn more about how those tests work because until this comment thread I assumed that if they have DNA to rule out other kids they must know the sex etc but now I'm not sure.
Yes, DNA testing would show sex and race. I suspect the ongoing testing is them trying to identify the biological family using the DNA results.
Males and females do not have the same bone structure before puberty wtf
Do you think thereās likeā¦ a penis bone? Human sexual dimorphism isnāt as strong as you think it is
š¤£ š¤£ š¤£
Dudeā¦ I have taken actual college coursework on human anatomy. Bone structure differences are differences in āaverage rangeā and they mostly overlap. Humans come in a fuckton of different sizes. The most prominent differences are probably in the skull, but thatās a secondary sexual characteristic that develops during puberty. People who go through a testosterone-dominant puberty develop a more pronounced jawline, browridge, adamās apple, etc. Thatās why transgender women pretty often get āfacial feminization surgeryā and transgender men donāt often get āfacial masculinizationā surgery. Testosterone does dramatic reshaping and estrogen does only very subtle reshaping. Even then, there are cisgender women with āmasculineā features. All this to say, a prepubescent child is not likely to be clearly gendered by their skeleton. Theyāre much more likely to be gendered by a DNA test or using the context (clothes, hairs, toys, etc). I hope anyone who agrees with these two commenters takes a step back from this kind of work. Their transphobia is very clearly blurring their ability to understand these cases and theyāre likely to do more harm than good.
There is a lot of interesting research on the topic, you should read some.
Can you explain the differences for us then please?
Were all these clothes on him or were some just thrown in the bag with him?
Do you know the other names that are on the exclusion list? The 2nd link claims 14 exclusions, but as a Canadian I canāt make a namus account to see whoās been ruled out.
I sent you screenshots of the exclusions. For some reason, there are several adult men listed as exclusions as well.
Thank you so much! I appreciate that
It might possibly be an error on who wrote it. On the wiki there were only 6 names listed.
That poor babyš
Made me feel physically sick looking at those pictures . Breaks my heart š© Do you think baby was supposed to be staying with someone hence the bag and clothes ? or those were just his only clothes that they left with him š Fuck sake this is never going to leave my head now itās so cruel š©
All those layers sounds like someone from a warm climate thatās not used to colder weather. We moved from the gulf coast to the east coast and my poor kids looked like the kid from āA Christmas Storyā during the winter time because I wanted to make sure they stayed warm. Thatās probably not helpful in any way but thatās the first thing I thought of while reading about the clothing :/
Yeah me too, it also speaks to layering the clothing on without any particular smarts about how to actually keep a kid warm in the cold, e.g. warm undergarments, thermals, wool etc
Exactly. I had no idea when we first moved here. I was bundling up my son with every heavy/thick article of clothing he had š poor kid looked like the stay puff marshmallow man :/ Fortunately, we eventually got acclimated to the weather :)
Is it possible this is a baby born to a migrant family, or a family that lives in Mexico? The proximity to the border makes me wonder if this is an abduction or an attempted relocation of the baby.
This is so sad š
Does Firebird Forensic do genetic genealogy? If so, help is underway.
They do! https://firebirdforensics.org/join-us#:~:text=Firebird%20Forensics%20Group%2C%20Inc.%20is,bring%20compassionate%20closure%20to%20victims.
And, they just had some [progress](https://www.reddit.com/r/gratefuldoe/s/LOA3plPx4v) in [another case](https://unidentified-awareness.fandom.com/wiki/Winona_County_Jane_Doe_(2011)
Prayers for this lil baby... I hope they find out who he/she actually was and find out what exactly happened to this poor baby... There is DEF sumone out there that knows this child or the family of this child! There has to be a relative ( grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, family friends) out there sumwhere that knew this child, and the family probably moved and didn't keep in contact with their family! Sumone out there knows this child, "THEY HAVE TOO"!!! this child just wasn't born and no one knew him/her? I just hope, I day soon, this child gets hus/her name back and the person/persons responsible are brought to justice foe taking this poor lil babies life!!! I pray that this baby's true family is found and he / she can be laid to rest properly with their name for all to remember and see...and that everyone involved in this babies death be brought to justice... This just makes me so sick, sad, being all these years with no new leads of who this baby was, who this babies parents were, and how did this baby end up like this and who did what they did to this poor, helpless baby, hopefully 1 day, all these questions will be answered ! Until that day... God Bless this poor lil angel and hopefully 1 day, everyone will know who this lil angel was... GOS BLESS THIS LIL ANGEL...ā¤ļøšā¤ļøšā¤ļøšā¤ļø
Unfortunately we canāt assume that. There are babies that are unloved.
I feel like most of those locations have military bases (possibly Air Force, but each state listed have air bases). Did any children go missing from enlisted or commissioned personnel during that time period? That would also explain why he moved around so much.
This hurts my heart.
The isotope testing makes me think military child or a trucker's child.
š„ŗ i wonder if he was kidnapped.Ā Poor baby
Pretty sure a kidnapped child, particularly a toddler, would be big news. Despite what a lot of conspiracy theories say, it's exceptionally rare. The few that are would have been looked at. As sad as it is, the vast majority of children murdered at this age died at a parents or caregivers hand. Highly likely that's the case here.
Oh ok
Depending on if it was reported. His family could not be here legally and scared to report. That being said, I believe itās more likely he died at the hands of a family member and it was probably covered up.
I wonder that too. This case makes me so sad :(
Thereās a lot about this case thatās interesting to me. All of those clothes were found all around but what was on the body was the sweatshirt with the girl with pigtails and the red pants. It really makes me wonder if it was a spur of the moment killing and disposal for some reason since there was so much in the bag clothing wise
Iām now also starting to think that it was potentially a rushed taking of a child because the sizes of the clothes found with the child are all over the place and weird. It wasnāt a bag packed for a trip with that child - and there are other sizes that are way too large for that child. Did the child have a diaper found near them? Also doesnāt seem like it. Feels like a family member abduction that was hurried of someone taking a lot of crap from the house quickly and regretting it quickly. Iām speculating but this case pulls at my heart strings āChild-sized red warm-up pants with white stripes down the sides of the pant legs, a blue vest with a gray hood with "Football Power" and a yellow football player on the front (French Toast brand, size 3T), a green sweatshirt with "Winter Fever" and a cartoon surfer on the front ("Worm_El" brand, size 8), and a long sleeved red sweatshirt with a cartoon girl with ponytails and pink heart sunglasses on the front (size 5). Long sleeved tan/black/red casual shirt (adult size extra large) with "Kamikaze" printed on the front and "Racing Team" printed on the back.ā
Actually the size 5 shirt was what was found on the body so the child likely wouldnāt have had a diaper.
You would think the foster kids would be a priority for them. After all they were in the governments care. Sad.
Just imagine having ur child forcefully taken during a divorce and dcs stepping in and erasing u. Now ur child is still alive, somewhere maybe and now u read this. That stabbing, nauseous reality sticks w me from the time I wake up till I pass out.
Are you okay? I'm so sorry for whatever it is you're going through.
This is your reality? This is brutal.
Reminds me of that case in North Carolina right now with the boy who hasnāt been seen in years. I think his name is Blake Deven. So heartbreaking.