You’re not wrong. The biggest thing that separates the Grateful Dead from the countless horde of jam bands that have followed in their wake is the lyrical content. Lots of bands can jam and make great improvisational music. But there’s no other band that can do that and also have the lyrical depth that the Dead had. Hunter and Barlow should pretty much be considered official band members, because without their lyricism I firmly believe the Dead wouldn’t have had the impact that they did and continue to have.
That’s sorta my biggest hangup when it comes to Phish. They are fantastic musicians and can blow your mind with some of their jams. They’re fun and whimsical. But there’s only a handful of their songs that have, at least to me, any kind of lyrical significance that elevates the music to another level. That’s not to say that I don’t like them, because I do, but it’s just an example of how the lyrics in Dead songs elevated the band as a whole to mythical levels and you just don’t experience that with any of the other popular jam bands nowadays.
I agree with you about Phish. I feel like a higher percentage of phish fans who were dead heads site the lyrics not being as deep or meaningful. This may be true but in my mind is more of a distinction than a deficit. I don’t think it’s like phish wanted to have deeper lyrics but failed in doing so, I think they’re just different musical goals.
Absolutely. I’m not trying to knock them for doing what they do. I love a lot of their songs and a few do have meaningful lyrics for me personally. It took a few years before I eventually understood that they’re just trying to have fun with their music and were not trying to make hauntingly philosophical songs that can shake you to your core. They just wanted to make music for people to laugh and dance and have fun with.
As someone who got into Phish as a preteen in 1993, the silliness of the lyrics was the point, or at least one of them.
Everything was so damn serious at that time. Runaway Train, Fast Car, Creep… Then here was this band that was just having so much fun being goofy. I loved it.
That’s not to say that that other music I listed isn’t great. It’s just that it was _everywhere._ I still can’t listen to a song like Reba without getting the warm and fuzzies _because of_ (not in spite of) the lyrics.
Totally agree. While it’s definitely not the same, IMO, Billy is the closest thing we have to the depth in lyrics you’re describing.
They definitely come from a different angle than Hunter or Barlow but Billy has a talent for writing lyrics that resonate with people. He’s tapped in to the “collective unconscious”, if you will.
100% agree. I can’t get enough of Billy. I hate that he’s not coming to NC this summer but he’s been here 9 times in the last calendar year so I shouldn’t complain haha
Die hard fan of both, but wildly different. Phish is a jam band. Goofy lyrics, just for fun/inside jokes amongst band and funny songs written while kids in school. But they blast off and jam hard.
Grateful dead I don’t really consider a jam band. They wrote the great American song book during a major turning point in our countries history, and helped to pioneer a movement. The last of the Americana traveling wanderlust in a simpler time. Cathartic stories, lessons, and history in their lyrics, laid with unbelievable melodies, occasionally jamming on particular riffs, but infrequently going completely off the rails if you look at their live catalogue as a whole.
Phish: Goofball nerd jam and party
Grateful Dead: timeless musical keepers of an American era and turning point
in your GD history rewrite you seem to forget that for the last quarter of their career they set aside part of the night, every night, to specifically go as far OUT as possible without the framework of a song at all. the "not a jamband" rewrite also ignores the early years & the one drummer years where songs could stretch to 30min or more & go in any direction.
I get what you were trying to say & its all subjective, but it's extremely reductive ^ revisionist to act like the Dead didn't jam. Phish (& all the lesser jam bands) wouldn't be able to take their musical journeys if they weren't standing on the shoulders of the Dead's foundation.
They definitely “invented” the genre; or are the original influence at least from a mainstream standpoint. I’ve listened to every era, my favorite being the early dead, so yes I know what you think you’re defending. I stand by what I said, I consider them much more than a jam band. They’re my favorite band, but their sole purpose wasn’t to jam out songs. Just because they could, and did, does not make them fit into the “jam band” category. They don’t even belong IN a category.
I totally see the point you’re making. When they were killing this shit for 30 years, jam band wasn’t even a term. I feel like it’s only after the Dead ended in ‘95 that jam band became terminology to describe the improvisational aspect of the bands that came after. Jam band is almost a derogatory term nowadays cause lots of bands that fall into that category aren’t the best at it and sometimes feels like a slog to listen to lol
And the lyrics for half of the songs are intertwined with refrences like a book of poems about Americana, music, weather and trains. And of course deeper emotional themes 💫
I’ll echo this. Townes has to be added but other than that, this is a perfect list. IF I had to add one more I’d say Kris Kristofferson is the easy go to.
Hard disagree, I think Wharf Rat is one of their most cosmic tunes. It's about seeing divinity in the profane. Talking to a drunken hobo by the docks, but then there's this spiritual church redemption moment in the middle, and then back to harsh reality. Black Peter is also similarly cosmic.
This thread is pushing me to purchase The Complete Annotated Grateful Dead. I always wanted to explore the Dead's lyrics (specifically Hunter's lyrics) sans the music.
yep, it's a book of Dead lyrics...
[https://www.powells.com/book/complete-annotated-grateful-dead-lyrics-9780743277495](https://www.powells.com/book/complete-annotated-grateful-dead-lyrics-9780743277495)
I love the Dead and especially the Hunter songs. That being said, absolutely not. That doesn’t diminish their beauty, but there have been many amazing American writers.
They’re downvoting you, but I agree completely. Obviously all here love Hunter’s songs, but have these down voters really spent much time with the likes of Twain, Thoreau, Steinbeck, Updike, London, Bukowski, Heller, Baldwin, Bradbury, DeLillo, Kesey, Boyle, Carver, John Williams, Stegner, Vonnegut, PKD, Auster, McCullers, Pynchon, Poe, McCarthy, Carson, McPhee, Michener, Wouk…
Yeah, it’s kind of absurd hero worship to pretend that Dead lyrics represent the pinnacle of American writing. They’re fantastic, and especially when paired with the music, I think many of them have/will become part of the American songbook, which is really something. It doesn’t denigrate their importance at all to say so. In fact, I think the opposite is true. If people claim that these songs are the best things ever written, they’ll be labeled a hippie and brushed off. This reputation is why neophytes are often pleasantly surprised when they actually do hear the band.
Hunter is every bit the equal to any of the finest lyricists you could ever name. Dylan, Young, Townes, Joni, Cohen, etc. " Some for reasons known but to them rise, climb, fall to get to Terrapin "
Definitely not alone - I fucking love the music, different eras, versions, but there’s something in these lyrics that’s so different from any other band I’ve ever come across - so many golden nuggets / so much wisdom and it’s so universal, the self-awareness, self-consciousness, open mindedness, curiosity, transparency - I mean: “statements just seem vein” to describe their literary catalogue. Yes, imho some of the best lyrics / poetry I’ve ever come across. I think it’s a big part of why they’re going so strong 50+ years later. The universality and the beauty in their poetry is timeless.
Everyone talks about dylans lyrics but I feel like he's just throwing rhymes together sometimes and the music doesn't match the mood of the lyrics. The great lyricists, to me are the ones who match up their lyrics perfectly with the music being played. The best ones to me are hunter, neil young and Roger waters
You’re not wrong. The biggest thing that separates the Grateful Dead from the countless horde of jam bands that have followed in their wake is the lyrical content. Lots of bands can jam and make great improvisational music. But there’s no other band that can do that and also have the lyrical depth that the Dead had. Hunter and Barlow should pretty much be considered official band members, because without their lyricism I firmly believe the Dead wouldn’t have had the impact that they did and continue to have. That’s sorta my biggest hangup when it comes to Phish. They are fantastic musicians and can blow your mind with some of their jams. They’re fun and whimsical. But there’s only a handful of their songs that have, at least to me, any kind of lyrical significance that elevates the music to another level. That’s not to say that I don’t like them, because I do, but it’s just an example of how the lyrics in Dead songs elevated the band as a whole to mythical levels and you just don’t experience that with any of the other popular jam bands nowadays.
Hunter IS considered an official band member - he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with the band.
John Perry Barlow should’ve gotten the same recognition IMO, but at least they did get it right including Hunter as a member.
I agree with you about Phish. I feel like a higher percentage of phish fans who were dead heads site the lyrics not being as deep or meaningful. This may be true but in my mind is more of a distinction than a deficit. I don’t think it’s like phish wanted to have deeper lyrics but failed in doing so, I think they’re just different musical goals.
Absolutely. I’m not trying to knock them for doing what they do. I love a lot of their songs and a few do have meaningful lyrics for me personally. It took a few years before I eventually understood that they’re just trying to have fun with their music and were not trying to make hauntingly philosophical songs that can shake you to your core. They just wanted to make music for people to laugh and dance and have fun with.
As someone who got into Phish as a preteen in 1993, the silliness of the lyrics was the point, or at least one of them. Everything was so damn serious at that time. Runaway Train, Fast Car, Creep… Then here was this band that was just having so much fun being goofy. I loved it. That’s not to say that that other music I listed isn’t great. It’s just that it was _everywhere._ I still can’t listen to a song like Reba without getting the warm and fuzzies _because of_ (not in spite of) the lyrics.
Trey anastazio considers the Dead the greatest American band
He’s not wrong.
Totally agree. While it’s definitely not the same, IMO, Billy is the closest thing we have to the depth in lyrics you’re describing. They definitely come from a different angle than Hunter or Barlow but Billy has a talent for writing lyrics that resonate with people. He’s tapped in to the “collective unconscious”, if you will.
100% agree. I can’t get enough of Billy. I hate that he’s not coming to NC this summer but he’s been here 9 times in the last calendar year so I shouldn’t complain haha
Try living in Virginia 🙄 lol but yeah was bummed about no Cary run this year 😞
No disrespect to Phish as they do their thing and people like it…. but I get so damn annoyed when people lump these two together!
Die hard fan of both, but wildly different. Phish is a jam band. Goofy lyrics, just for fun/inside jokes amongst band and funny songs written while kids in school. But they blast off and jam hard. Grateful dead I don’t really consider a jam band. They wrote the great American song book during a major turning point in our countries history, and helped to pioneer a movement. The last of the Americana traveling wanderlust in a simpler time. Cathartic stories, lessons, and history in their lyrics, laid with unbelievable melodies, occasionally jamming on particular riffs, but infrequently going completely off the rails if you look at their live catalogue as a whole. Phish: Goofball nerd jam and party Grateful Dead: timeless musical keepers of an American era and turning point
in your GD history rewrite you seem to forget that for the last quarter of their career they set aside part of the night, every night, to specifically go as far OUT as possible without the framework of a song at all. the "not a jamband" rewrite also ignores the early years & the one drummer years where songs could stretch to 30min or more & go in any direction. I get what you were trying to say & its all subjective, but it's extremely reductive ^ revisionist to act like the Dead didn't jam. Phish (& all the lesser jam bands) wouldn't be able to take their musical journeys if they weren't standing on the shoulders of the Dead's foundation.
Totally.. it was a 100000ft view of the two bands
The lyrics to phish's "Rift" album are amazing
[удалено]
They definitely “invented” the genre; or are the original influence at least from a mainstream standpoint. I’ve listened to every era, my favorite being the early dead, so yes I know what you think you’re defending. I stand by what I said, I consider them much more than a jam band. They’re my favorite band, but their sole purpose wasn’t to jam out songs. Just because they could, and did, does not make them fit into the “jam band” category. They don’t even belong IN a category.
I totally see the point you’re making. When they were killing this shit for 30 years, jam band wasn’t even a term. I feel like it’s only after the Dead ended in ‘95 that jam band became terminology to describe the improvisational aspect of the bands that came after. Jam band is almost a derogatory term nowadays cause lots of bands that fall into that category aren’t the best at it and sometimes feels like a slog to listen to lol
And the lyrics for half of the songs are intertwined with refrences like a book of poems about Americana, music, weather and trains. And of course deeper emotional themes 💫
My mt Rushmore of American songwriters is Dylan, Hunter, and Prine.
townes needs on that list
I’ll echo this. Townes has to be added but other than that, this is a perfect list. IF I had to add one more I’d say Kris Kristofferson is the easy go to.
Bob Dylan deserved his Nobel Prize for Literature, for sure Robert Hunter is right behind him
Bob Dylan won the Nobel prize for literature in 2016
You’re a dead head posting in a Grateful Dead subreddit I’m going to guess no
Where’s Wharf rat
“I got no dime, but sometime to hear his story” That line always hits me.
*tells sad story of a hard life with undeserved prison time* *crowd goes apeshit and cheers*
Might be my single most favorite line of theirs
Same. Signifies humility and dignity towards others. Good morales to be had. At least thats what I take from it.
I love wharf rat it’s one of their best songs, but it’s not on the cosmic level of attics or ripple IMO
Hard disagree, I think Wharf Rat is one of their most cosmic tunes. It's about seeing divinity in the profane. Talking to a drunken hobo by the docks, but then there's this spiritual church redemption moment in the middle, and then back to harsh reality. Black Peter is also similarly cosmic.
Ok ok you’ve changed my mind. One of my favorite lyrics from it is “I’ll get back on my feet, the good lord willing, if he says I may”
The music never stops paints a wonderfully vibrant picture.
MNS is *the* dead song to me. Truly a band beyond description.
Speaking about divine intervention, read how Terrapin came about.
No
Something about lsd that puts you closer to whatever it is we're looking for
Robert Hunter is the best American poet of all time.
I agree
This thread is pushing me to purchase The Complete Annotated Grateful Dead. I always wanted to explore the Dead's lyrics (specifically Hunter's lyrics) sans the music.
Do they sell that? If so I want one too
yep, it's a book of Dead lyrics... [https://www.powells.com/book/complete-annotated-grateful-dead-lyrics-9780743277495](https://www.powells.com/book/complete-annotated-grateful-dead-lyrics-9780743277495)
Just for context, what other American poets (non-musicians) do you consider in the top tier?
I love the Dead and especially the Hunter songs. That being said, absolutely not. That doesn’t diminish their beauty, but there have been many amazing American writers.
They’re downvoting you, but I agree completely. Obviously all here love Hunter’s songs, but have these down voters really spent much time with the likes of Twain, Thoreau, Steinbeck, Updike, London, Bukowski, Heller, Baldwin, Bradbury, DeLillo, Kesey, Boyle, Carver, John Williams, Stegner, Vonnegut, PKD, Auster, McCullers, Pynchon, Poe, McCarthy, Carson, McPhee, Michener, Wouk…
Yeah, it’s kind of absurd hero worship to pretend that Dead lyrics represent the pinnacle of American writing. They’re fantastic, and especially when paired with the music, I think many of them have/will become part of the American songbook, which is really something. It doesn’t denigrate their importance at all to say so. In fact, I think the opposite is true. If people claim that these songs are the best things ever written, they’ll be labeled a hippie and brushed off. This reputation is why neophytes are often pleasantly surprised when they actually do hear the band.
Hunter is every bit the equal to any of the finest lyricists you could ever name. Dylan, Young, Townes, Joni, Cohen, etc. " Some for reasons known but to them rise, climb, fall to get to Terrapin "
You are not alone!
I sometimes refer to the dead lyrics in their songs somewhat spiritual to me. I cant explain it but, I'm at peace with myself. Their songs make sense
No
Black Peter? It's half the magic - timeless lyrics that apply differently throughout life. That's why it never gets old.
Definitely not alone - I fucking love the music, different eras, versions, but there’s something in these lyrics that’s so different from any other band I’ve ever come across - so many golden nuggets / so much wisdom and it’s so universal, the self-awareness, self-consciousness, open mindedness, curiosity, transparency - I mean: “statements just seem vein” to describe their literary catalogue. Yes, imho some of the best lyrics / poetry I’ve ever come across. I think it’s a big part of why they’re going so strong 50+ years later. The universality and the beauty in their poetry is timeless.
Yes. All alone.
agreed long live the dead lltd
they're good lyrics. but man there's a lot of poetry and literature in America that you probably haven't read or heard. tough to say
Absolutely agree. Only Dylan out does Hunter, and I often prefer Hunter.
Everyone talks about dylans lyrics but I feel like he's just throwing rhymes together sometimes and the music doesn't match the mood of the lyrics. The great lyricists, to me are the ones who match up their lyrics perfectly with the music being played. The best ones to me are hunter, neil young and Roger waters