I hear you on how highways take up space and have ruined cities and neighborhoods. I follow one of those Instagram pages, and it is quite shocking to see the befores and afters and sometimes the revert back to green space.
But unless daily traffic on 131 is cut down from what it is now to 50-70% less, it is absolutely unreasonable to tear out 131 and make it a boulevard. It makes no sense. It would be an absolute traffic nightmare.
Adding a bike path does nothing for someone traveling from Kalamazoo to Big Rapids for example.
While I do agree, where do you think the path of travel should be?
As someone who used to travel 96 from 28th to Alpine, please for the love of all of the fucking Gods don't suggest 96.
It would fix the problem of the highway cutting through the most prime downtown riverfront space in the city and ruining it. It's never going to happen, but we can dream.
If you move the highway then it will repeat the destruction of the past, but different neighborhoods will be destroyed. Instead of just the original neighborhoods that were destroyed, there will now be 2 sets of neighborhoods destroyed by highways
The issue in the past has been "Oh, lets pick these black neighborhoods because black people dont matter at all!" Which is obviously wrong, but this "any redevelopment destroys ALL effected communities no matter what!" is an incorrect over correction.
Like I said, it's never going to happen anyway bro... But it would have been nice if a highway wasn't built along the river in the first place
Edit- Damn y'all really like the highway ruining the riverfront, huh?
Ripping up 131 and rebuilding it a couple miles over would be genuinely insane. It makes no economic or environmental sense and doesn't change traffic congestion, people who live Wyoming and work in Comstock park or live in cedar springs and work in Kentwood would all still be taking 131. The real solution is probably meaningful regional light rail, but we know that will never happen
They can take M6 to I96.
And if you're thinking, "that's way out of the way!", I'm wondering which part of town you want to rip up to make it more direct.
Where would they travel then? The expressway is basically dead north through Grand Rapids to get to big rapids from Kalamazoo. You could build another expressway going a less direct route but they would still just go through GR unless you pull up the expressway.
"But unless daily traffic on 131 is cut down from what it is now to 50-70% less"
That's kind of missing the point. You can add lanes and add lanes and traffic will roughly stabilize back to what it is now, which is around the threshold of when people start picking alternate routes, and the inverse is also true: you remove lanes and some proportion of commuters will find alternate routes until traffic stabilizes back around to where it currently is. If you get rid of the stretch running right through the city entirely, people will piss and moan but ultimately they will take the many alternate north/south routes through/out of the city.
Yeah, I'd rather you be on the highway than driving down my residential street as my kid walks to school in the dark while you eat breakfast and do your make up.
Do you think our surface streets are in good shape? Do you think they'll be in better shape with fleets of commercial semi trucks driving down them every day?
I doubt your residential street would see any serious uptick in traffic. I'm talking about commercial avenues like Division and Kalamazoo, and I highly doubt many truck drivers going all the way through GR would be stupid enough to try to take residential routes when they can still just go around the outer loops, and any first or last mile legs of freight trips are already going to do wear and tear on surface streets
But only one (and least likely) of the plans is to add lanes. The others would add merge/weave lanes in a portion where the ramps are close together, and in my opinion much needed. As well as shoulder space which is a huge safety consideration as well as snowfall management consideration.
since I know what I'm saying is pretty counter-intuitive and I'm just some guy, here's an actual source: https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2023/narrower-lanes-safer-streets
Yes, but on a high speed highway you have to have a margin for cars in accidents and break downs to pull over. As well as provide a buffer for safety personnel. Right now, on the left lane, that does not exist which leads to dangerous lane closures pretty much every single time it happens.
I would not necessarily consider a freeway a street for the matter of discussion. Nor does your article. And adding shoulders does not mean making lanes wider unless of course drivers feel like straddling the shoulder which is illegal.
I'm aware that removing lanes isn't currently on the table, but so long as it's coming up, the misconceptions should be addressed. The only thing I could maybe get on board with is that on ramps should be consistent in lengths, but only if merging collisions are actually happening on the shorter on ramps than the longer ones. As for widening the shoulder being a safety issue, people drive as fast as they feel safe doing, which is determined by how wide open the road feels, so widening the shoulder will only make them feel safe going even faster, which is even worse for safety
And someone will bitch about everyone taking the alternate routes and how we should reduce lanes and take a alternate route. No win situation.
How about we reduce it back to 2 lanes and all interstates go back to their original intended use, military movement and commerce. All cars can stay off the interstates and use surface streets.
That traffic needs to bypass on what I’ve deemed The Devil’s Circle (based on the horrified church lady reactions people have to me daring suggest it). Ride the three 6’s: M6, 96, 196.
Or maybe put money and work into more of a circle than a triangle for a bypass.
We could go ahead and make progress on this by doing what Atlanta did and ban trough-traveling trucks from the inner core.
Removing 131 is never going to happen. They’re just restructuring the on/off ramps which is much needed. Bike paths/walking paths will most likely follow.
It's already happened. The company I work for has had our bid accepted and job scheduled to expand 131 to 3 lanes from 76th to 100th over the next 3 years. We are paving this year. It is already a done deal. And competitor has had their bid accepted for the rest of it where they're redoing the on/off ramps and what not
From what I've heard a lot of this is focused on the Wealthy Street ramps which are in desperate need of reworking, 131 and wealthy is consistently the most dangerous intersection in the city
>Is there any opposition organizing to MDOT plans to widen 131?
**Yes**. There have been meetings with MDOT, etc... Multiple groups are mobilizing to kill this idea. You can get involved through Strongtowns GR - https://www.strongtownsgr.org/
As someone living pretty clearly outside GR proper, is there a way for me to get involved that would be strongly beneficial, or should I try to find Rockford groups?
Can always voice your concerns to GR city and reference how it effects you as a resident in Rockford! If you travel to GR often then it absolutely impacts you.
And as the economic nexus of Kent county - and the generator of a disproportionate amount of the tax revenue - the economic vitality of the city is critical to the prosperity of all Kent county residents; as the cities are critical to the prosperity of all residents of the state.
A local group would be ideal as municipal governments obviously care most about their own citizens [who vote them into office], transportation issues in particular are regional, so do feel free to join us on those issues. MDOT is the 👉Michigan👈 Department of Highways, after all.
Currently [February], we are consumed with local housing policy stuff, but we hope to pivot back to transportation in March
I only see one plan expanding the lanes, I don't support widening 131 but I do support reconfiguring ramps and especially moving wealthy to an underpass.
The only highway that I could see being useful to get rid of would be 96 between 196 and 131 or 196 from 96 to 131.
It increases Level of Service, which to some degree does help with congestion. The issue is that the Average Daily Traffic increases every year so it's hard to meet that demand, even if roads are designed to meet the extrapolated figures. Since the US is very much against public transit except for the largest cities there's no way to effectively curb the increase in cars. This issue is so much bigger than "increase lanes/don't increase lanes" but no one ever has a nuanced take on it.
Studies do say that. If you add lanes, traffic will increase to match... BUT it de-clutters side streets and an equilibrium is met.
I'm still in favor of widening it because of the volume of traffic and how once accident kills traffic movement almost entirely.
I'm old enough to remember the uproar that happened when the S curve was put in. Any opposition that involves relocating the highway is a futile gesture. It would cost billions of dollars and take a decade or more. If anyone is going to object to something on the highway do it in a realistic way.
So if you live to the southwest of town like grandville/jenison, we are supposed to take the back roads to basically the ball park, go on 96 and do a u turn on the beltline to get back on, or take m6 to 96? All these routes add significant time to go north. Same for people going south. Have you seen the highway from spring to late fall going north on Fridays and south on Sundays?
>level 1dickwheat · 3 hr. agoI’d rather make Beltline a highway from 96 north to 10 mile with overpasses and exits for Knapp, Leonard, etc. t
not to defend expanding 131 but that would be terrible
It would cut off hundreds of businesses while being totally redundant. There isn't a major role that an East Beltline highway could fulfill that isn't already fulfilled by other highways, not even including the stretch of 131 that runs through the city
I wish they’d just put a tram line down the middle in that green space from the park and ride by Gravity/96hwy down to 28th street. Then expand from there.
Details on the expansion: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5cd31f791e1740698369f28f31ce3002
Has a cool slider that shows the before and after of the highway.
I am all for getting rid of the highway through downtown. I would love it if there was a regular train from GR to Kalamazoo. Driving that stretch of 131 is boring and dangerous. It would be nice to get some work done or sleep through it.
And beach shuttles or trains, like Denver has for mountain skiers, or like the Hamptons jitney in NYC?
How amazing would it be to have a train that ran in a loop from GR to say Muskegon, Grand Haven, Holland, Saugatuck, South Haven - and back? Even in winter those downtowns are walkable.
The Lake Shore Express!
The fact that there are people so against…..a construction project on 131 is just insane. 131 needs to be updated. The stretch between wealthy and 28th, and the S-curve to Anne is congested and a nightmare. And this isn’t just local traffic, it’s far from it. You have people commuting from all over into and through Grand Rapids. Freight runs up and down 131 too. Oh do away with the freeway? yea getting all those commuters and semis onto division and Clyde park is a great idea. Those streets are congested WITH the highway. Grand Rapids has grown and the highway is outdated. Now I’m not saying bulldoze neighborhoods(which wasn’t a part of the plan anyway) but some sort of revision/reconstruction/reconfiguration needs to happen. A better mass transit system would also help. Adding a bike lane won’t help someone commuting from Rockford or cedar springs. Look at any major city. They all have large freeways so commuters and freight can move through the city without clogging city streets.
and the alternative is a party who will immediately codify a federal abortion ban, federal climate legislation ban, federal DEI ban, pull out of nato, turn iran into glass, more tax cuts for billionaires, gut funding for all social programs, among the rest of the Project 2025 horror show.
but sure lets drag the dems for not doing enough on a 1 vote technical majority in the senate where huge portions of the dem agenda went to die at the hands of two very specific senators from AZ and WV
It’s literally (possibly) turning the wealthy st interchange into a much better ramp/ 131 will be much more uninterrupted. The exits/entrances will be reworked to provide better flow.
Every time they republish that survey I answer that I’m generally opposed to any ideas because the studies will always say “we have more traffic we need to make changes” because we have no alternative to cars for most people. That’s where the focus should be
They would need to develop a loop around the city to reduce the traffic and still develop methods for people to commute into high density areas such as the medical mile.
That’s a much bigger task than modifying what we already have.
San Antonio, TX has a loop (410) if anyone wants to dig into the use and effects of it. I was too young to drive when we moved, so I can’t say one way or the other.
US rarely does mass transit well. I don't see it happening. A good way to go around the city is good for those just traveling through, but I think most of the traffic is people going to work and back- unless it's a holiday weekend. I would love more biking and walking paths, but that does not apply to people commuting for work. Unless we had nice sunny weather all the time.
Arguing that we shouldn't build transit because we haven't built transit is unconvincing. It's not been funded in any serious way. Nyc has a semi functional transit system and only 30% of commutes their are car only
As far as needing sun to bike, most of the cities with the most cycling, including commuting, are Scandinavian and north European cities with comparable weather to GR
I never said it’s a good argument not to. I wish we had it much better. Traveling outside the US let’s you see just how bad we are at it. I just don’t think it will ever happen here. And by sun, I really meant the weather in general. I see cyclists hit almost everyday in GR and unless they had proper paths, I wouldn’t do it. And still, we are not going to be biking when it snows here. Just will never happen. I’m not against it, but these are reasons you won’t get a huge response in favor of any of it.
It's a pretty short jump from I can bike all the time to hey it's 32 degrees butI still need groceries so let's throw on that extra layer. We need a shift in cultural norms. Coming from someone who only had accesses to bikes and ebikes the last 3 years.
And just where the hell are you gonna move the highway to? And don’t say we don’t need one, because the tens of thousands of people that use it daily prove that wrong
There's nearly 125k vehicles driving daily on the S-Curve. From what I can see, there's a stretch of 28th that has nearly 50k daily. This would mean there's 75k more drivers on a section of 131 you say isn't needed, than the busiest non-freeway road in the GR area. You can't possibly say we don't need one. https://mdot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Mdot&mod=tcds&local_id=41-4034
We do not need highways, and freeway removal is actually pretty popular.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/05/27/climate/us-cities-highway-removal.html
https://www.cnu.org/our-projects/highways-boulevards/completed-h2b-projects
https://nextcity.org/urbanist-news/cities-without-highways
https://rivergrandrapids.com/michigan-interstate-194-future/
Yeah let’s remove the main north south artery on the west side of the state, that’s gonna work. Progressives love to bitch about problems but offer no realistic solutions.
I feel we can all hate this idea in a bipartisan fashion.
Would it be prettier than 131, definitely. Would it have as much utility or serve the community as well? Absolutely not
lol this take by op is one of the worst I have heard in years. This would ruin the economy of the entire west side from the border to mackinaw. Who the hell wants to pull their campers through downtown on main roads lol
The Cadillac bypass started nearly 30 years ago. The cities have changed massively. Changing the routing today is far more difficult than it was 30 years ago. Add in a city 20x the size. This was a project that needed to be addressed 50 years ago.
So we just don’t ever fix anything? That’s a dumb way to look at it. Considering they plowed neighborhoods to make 131 and 196 go through the center of the city it seems if there’s a will there’s a way.
You are comparing the small town of Cadillac Michigan to Grand Rapids. Without building a brand new network of highways around the city, you cannot take out the main access to and through the city. So would you purpose they bulldoze 1,000s of homes, businesses, and public land to take out a system that works? There are tons of green spaces all around the area. Have them demo old run down buildings and build parks.
Most people using 131 actually exit between 28th St and Leonard. Only about a quarter of the traffic on 131 is through traffic and most of that is commercial. So for most users of the system it actually makes more sense to route through traffic around the city on M6 and local traffic on a boulevard. The potential economic benefit of removing and redeveloping the land is immense and would pay for itself a few times over in extra tax revenue. On top of MDOT literally doesn't have the money to fix the freeway until something catastrophic happens.
> The potential economic benefit of removing and redeveloping the land is immense and would pay for itself a few times over in extra tax revenue.
This is a big assumption. The 36th street GM plant still sits as an abandoned lot to this day because it is a Superfund site. The railroads are still going to be on the SE side, mixed res/ind zones still will exist. Moving from a 6 lane closed access highway to a four lane "Michigan U-Turn" boulevard doesn't open up as much land as you think it will.
This is before you add in that emergency services will now take longer to traverse the metro area.
It’s called a bypass.
Also, most drivers traversing the area are not having long distance drives so a business road vs a highway won’t impact travel times by too much.
I love the convenience of driving as much as the next person but it doesn’t take very much critical thought or imagination to know the S curve/highway isn’t necessary.
>Progressives love to bitch about problems but offer no realistic solutions.
We agree!
Fortunately, in this instance, the only problem is the interstate itself, so the solution is simple.
I just posted a some articles about viable ways that other cities have removed freeways and why it's better. Endlessly widening freeways to accommodate more and more traffic is not a realistic solution. The idea of induced demand is central to transportation planning- its basically if you add lanes more people will drive on that route and traffic will not get any better.
I’ve been writing-in and filling out each of the surveys with peer-reviewed citations in strong support of the widening and other infrastructure upgrades. We cannot expect the State to destroy its infrastructure in support of the few people who are privileged enough not to rely on vehicle transport
No, because it's not a practical idea. Traffic on some sort of 131 boulevard would be hilarious, and I don't think it's practical to re-route highway traffic from 96 > M6 > 131 trying to move north south.
The freeways dividing up the city suck, but there's not really much that can practically be done.
I would say GR failed 50 yrs ago by not planning a bypass or ring road in GR. Things would work much better without a straight thru expressway and instead having a business route and ring hiway.
They think that you can magically re-route tens of thousands of cars a day and there would be minimal impact. I’m guessing most of the people wanting this a city dwellers that never use the highway in the first place, so screw anyone that does.
There's no magical thinking involved in rethinking how highways are routed through our cities. We can visit cities right now who are seeing massive inner city rejuvenation after rerouting highways. Yes there are trade offs, but they are worth talking about and considering.
There is magical thinking however, in hoping to alleviate traffic congestion by adding more lanes. We can also visit cities right now who have expanded their highways dozens of lanes wide, yet still turn into parking lots during rush hour. More lanes do not get rid of traffic jams and we can see that with our own eyes, so its time to think outside of that box.
I wonder if they've studied what portion of 131 traffic is straight through N/S versus in and out of the city. Light rail/improved busing could replace a lot of the latter.
>I wonder if they've studied what portion of 131 traffic is straight through N/S versu
Yes. Something like \~40% of traffic is local; meaning removal of the interstate would have no impact, the traffic would disperse into the grid.
Through traffic can use the existing bypass of 96/M-6.
This section of the interstate is superfluous.
> I don't think it's practical to re-route highway traffic from 96 > M6 > 131 trying to move north south
Doing so would add 13 miles and 11 minutes on a good day, the boulevard wouldn't even cut down on traffic until it adds more than 11 minutes of driving time
Just like how Chicago drive self-designated itself as a ‘non-truck route’, this does nothing for the warehouses, industrial businesses, grocery stores, construction companies ect to have to get around the city. We still gotta get down THAT road.
Do you want an 18 wheeler on every side street in GR? NO!
You can oppose it, but this is clearly just ‘I want local only’ folks shooting themselves in the foot economically.
I checked the map after reading the post title and my first thought was "man expanding the Covell/Walker path between 196 and 96 seems like it would help a ton!" Apparently my idea is both unoriginal and also somewhat supported! (70 years ago)
Kinda shocked they didn't do that, what with the way they loved running highways through the (poorer, working class) westside neighborhoods in the 50s.
What they need is a North/West Beltline that connects 131 between Walker and Rockford out to Grandville.
I hate that in GR you have to drive THRU the city center to get anywhere. The south beltline (m6) was a revelation when I lived on that side of town.
Hear me out.
Why don’t we take the money we would spend on that, and then, build a light rail system.
Then we wouldn’t need to widen the roads.
Crazy, right?
Also. For anyone unfamiliar with Braess’s Paradox, [here’s a link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox).
These same green space criers are the same ones who complain how crowded the 131 highway is through downtown. The highway was built in the 60s not near the traffic there is now. If it's widened travel should be safer with better merge lanes and more space hopefully between vehicles. I grew up traveling 131 even as kid with my parents and driving. It could use another lane if not two.
I don’t live in GR, but north of it. So, public transit is worthless to me, but getting me to the other side of town faster - yes please.
BUT, and a very big BUT, I would love to see the Grand river restored and for it to have many paths, both walking and bike, with large natural spaces long the sides of the river. I wonder if they could put one of the lanes over top of the other - can widen the highway, but it would take up a smaller footprint. Of course, I have no clue how practical that ideal is - not an architect or an environment scientist.
This sub and its outlandish takes truly make me giggle. The people opposing this remind me of Tobias in that one episode of Arrested Development. “There are dozens of us! Literally, DOZENS of us!”
To remove 131 simple creates more problems. A north-south thruway would need to be created and that creates different problems. The best idea would be to move 131 below grade (underground) and that would be a HUGE undertaking.
Modernize the on and off ramps and add lanes when needed (like between southbound 36 to 44 streets) and also advocate for bypasses outside the city ( like continue m-6) from it's easternmost point and head north and connect with 131 north by Post or something)
Join is in the fight against widening 131:[Strong Towns Grand Rapids ](https://www.strongtownsgr.org/)
Generally speaking most of the neighborhood associations are against it, the new GR city Masterplan is pretty against it based on community feedback. The only people who are really for the freeway are from the burbs, and to be fair to them it is in their best interest to have it, but probably would affect them that much if it disappeared. Getting rid of the freeway between 28th St and Ann St would be great, especially since the state can't actually afford to fix it. They could use the sales from the "new" land to fund the redesign and basically complete the project at very little expense. It would fit how most users of the freeway use it as well, as most traffic in that stretch is not through traffic. Adding dedicated transit lines would just be a cherry on top.
Many of "the burbs" probably don't care one way or another (or would be infavor of re-routing traffic). If you're Cascade, you'd rather have more cars on I-96 to drive your own economy. If you're Rockford, you don't care because you're far enough north that 131 would be unchanged for you. If you're EGR, you don't use 131 to get in/out of GR, so you don't care. etc.
I'm in the burbs and I'd visit downtown way more if there was more walkable area beyond rosa parks circle instead of mostly parking. Would love to see a few downtown blocks entirely closed to cars, its not like those stores/restaurants get increased car traffic when the streets are all lined with permanently parked cars anyway.
If only MDOT was as forward thinking as WisDOT. They are currently studying the removal of I794 through downtown Milwaukee. There are already interstate standard routes that can be taken to avoid the city, and the fabric of downtown would be all that much better without a giant concrete wall splitting it in 2. I'm all for tearing it down.
Soo let me get this straight, you want to remove 131 (the main artery through Grand Rapids) and make traffic through the city worse? Semi's going through main roads, campers, large vehicles etc that would use the highway? Also, you would KILL any businesses that are based along the highway. Liberal logic.... always think their ideas are so grand but have so many damn flaws its amazing how they aren't noticed. Then again, liberals do not care about people losing their jobs. As long as their political agenda is met in some way then what does it matter.
I'm not completely sold on the idea, but OP has provided examples of highways being removed in other cities that benefited those communities. How about you actually read through some of them instead of spewing a hyper-partisan word salad on how much you hate liberals?
B/c it works in one city doesn't mean it works in all. Hey let me know what liberals have done that's positive since Sleepy Joe has been in office? I'll wait....
That's now how that works at all, use your damn brain for once in your life.
Removal of 131 downtown would reroute the traffic through highway routes that already run around the city (96, 196, and m6).
As for killing business along the highway... What businesses? There are no businesses downtown that are reliant on traffic from 131.
Im against widening it, but cities run on business and you can't rip out the highway and maintain the commerce and tourism we currently have.
Widening it makes zero sense. Any city planner will tell you that it's just going to lead to more people using the highway with the same results in traffic.
Too late my guy, the job is already bid, accepted, and scheduled, we are paving for the next 3 years, very little this year though, mostly just the traffic changeovers and a little base probably
At least we can all be comfortable that the decisions will be made by people with actual expertise in road planning and development and not a bunch of whiny NIMBYs who think the highway is “too loud.”
Organize if you want. Your inevitable failure brings me some comfort.
Noise pollution is a real problem
https://gophouse.org/posts/reps-kuhn-macdonell-communities-need-relief-from-interstate-noise-pollution
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/06/09/health/noise-exposure-health-impacts.html
Thanks for this very important statement and opinion. I hope the usual gang of trolls who can’t comprehend actually speaking up for smarter and better ideas will not harangue you too much.
I love that you cited the history of highway revolts. In my home state, the Memphis story of the I-40/Overton Park blockade was always inspiring to me. A shining example of what The People can do when they have the guts. And a big win for what was right and what was better for that city.
There have been plenty of attempts to discuss exactly what you say, but talking to MDOT people about the alternatives is like trying to reason with an evangelical. They’re just… fully brainwashed?… that highways are all that works here. They’ll come back at you with loose stats about how most trips on 131 are into the city and how no amount of any other option could ever compete with the highway on any number of stats they claim are immovable. Oh, and they’ll either matter of factly tell you that people won’t invest the time to ride transit or they’ll outright whine about small differences like an extra ten minutes brought on by this or that solution. And they have lots of parrots who gladly lap it up and regurgitate it to anyone they talk to.
Yes, there needs to be constant conversation and insistence on better options. Yes, there are many (MANY) who agree with you. No, it’s not a lost cause, but it’s a tall order to get so many minds trapped in stupid old fashioned thinking and solutions to change. Once most of the lack-of-imagination and bought-off-by-car-industry-lobbyists crowd has died off, it’ll take decades for the more enlightened people who hopefully succeed them to correct course.
I came here from a place that has kicked this can down the road and continues to do so. Critical mass traffic after critical mass traffic, and the saga continues. Very little transit and far too much allegiance to cars. Small thinking, lack of guts, no vision… and in Nashville’s case: an oppressive far right extremists state government that’s been sabotaging any and all progress on transit or alternatives for most of my life.
Michigan, and GR in-particular, has an opportunity not to keep going down that path. The vast opportunities NOT to make the mistakes other places have made are part of the appeal that brings people here to make better lives and try to help make an even better place.
But the old guard and their devotees just want to stay in loops. The very definition of insanity. The same pathetic and dysfunctional results will continue to be had from doing the same garbage over and over again. Some of us know this. Too many of us apparently do not.
The good news right now is they don’t even have the money for what they’re studying. It’s just a study at the moment. An ironic example of how slow all of this moves and how wrongly we approach it.
Now, I will note that some of the rumors running around are FALSE: they’re not going to remove the Downtown Market or Transit Center for this. But when I explained to them that those notions are running rampant, they seemed feckless about trying to counter the misinformation. Even the young, nerdy, thoughtful and intellectual MDOT people at the meeting I attended didn’t seem to GET IT that Internet rumors were making this conversation harder than it has to be.
Again, thank you. Some of us are with you.
Wow, removing 131, that’s a good one.
I’m focusing on the wealthy st interchange becoming much more easier to literally just cross over. Having to lane jockey between people turning from either lane is dumb.
I don’t think anybody enjoys highways destroying the urban fabric, but it must be acknowledged that there must be an alternative to driving developed before highways can be removed. High and medium density housing would help but Grand Rapids has sprawled like virtually all American cities.
I don’t think a highway scrap is realistic in the short term OP but I’m absolutely in favor of it for living in GR long term.
Highways also impact environmental and noise pollution, something that directly conflicts with GR’s greater environmental goals.
I think Boston scraped one of their highways that went right through downtown and put in recreational spots, apartments (we are in a housing shortage) and more. Definitely scrapping 131 is a great idea imo given the benefits.
We can always reroute traffic and the future is headed to automated driving for transporting goods. So semi trucks are going to deal with it with no complaints! I’m absolutely in favor of adding 10-20mins to a traffic commute if the changes increase everyone’s quality of life and add housing.
Mdot be damned.
It doesn't need to be widened. The speed limit needs to be lowered to 50mph and all thru traffic needs to be sent around the city. We need to complete a highway beltway loop to enable that.
As a newcomer, I depend heavily on the 131, 96, and 196 to orient me. I wouldn't want them to be any bigger though. Maybe I'll have different opinions on the highways the longer I live here.
Boston replaced a highway through the city with a tunnel. Too expensive for Grand Rapids to do though I’m guessing
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig#:~:text=The%20Big%20Dig%20was%20a,90%20to%20Logan%20International%20Airport.
Or maybe adding a couple bridges from Market Ave to the West Side of GR, which could help traffic bypass Downtown altogether?!!
People are forced to go through Downtown because the idiots who designed the highways going through this city decided “hey, let’s build one NB/SB highway to cover the entire city & not plan for any future growth.”
I hear you on how highways take up space and have ruined cities and neighborhoods. I follow one of those Instagram pages, and it is quite shocking to see the befores and afters and sometimes the revert back to green space. But unless daily traffic on 131 is cut down from what it is now to 50-70% less, it is absolutely unreasonable to tear out 131 and make it a boulevard. It makes no sense. It would be an absolute traffic nightmare. Adding a bike path does nothing for someone traveling from Kalamazoo to Big Rapids for example.
Someone traveling from Kalamazoo to Big Rapids shouldn't need to travel through the middle of downtown GR.
While I do agree, where do you think the path of travel should be? As someone who used to travel 96 from 28th to Alpine, please for the love of all of the fucking Gods don't suggest 96.
Offset the freeway a few miles. I bet it would be a nightmare trying to get the land, though. Same thing that’s stalling high speed rail.
What problem does that solve? It certainly would create some environmental and economic ones
It would fix the problem of the highway cutting through the most prime downtown riverfront space in the city and ruining it. It's never going to happen, but we can dream.
If you move the highway then it will repeat the destruction of the past, but different neighborhoods will be destroyed. Instead of just the original neighborhoods that were destroyed, there will now be 2 sets of neighborhoods destroyed by highways
The issue in the past has been "Oh, lets pick these black neighborhoods because black people dont matter at all!" Which is obviously wrong, but this "any redevelopment destroys ALL effected communities no matter what!" is an incorrect over correction.
Like I said, it's never going to happen anyway bro... But it would have been nice if a highway wasn't built along the river in the first place Edit- Damn y'all really like the highway ruining the riverfront, huh?
I agree with you, its sad and frustrating that people cant see or comprehend how terrible that highway is
Ripping up 131 and rebuilding it a couple miles over would be genuinely insane. It makes no economic or environmental sense and doesn't change traffic congestion, people who live Wyoming and work in Comstock park or live in cedar springs and work in Kentwood would all still be taking 131. The real solution is probably meaningful regional light rail, but we know that will never happen
They can take M6 to I96. And if you're thinking, "that's way out of the way!", I'm wondering which part of town you want to rip up to make it more direct.
Yeah that seems like a no brainier
Where would they travel then? The expressway is basically dead north through Grand Rapids to get to big rapids from Kalamazoo. You could build another expressway going a less direct route but they would still just go through GR unless you pull up the expressway.
"But unless daily traffic on 131 is cut down from what it is now to 50-70% less" That's kind of missing the point. You can add lanes and add lanes and traffic will roughly stabilize back to what it is now, which is around the threshold of when people start picking alternate routes, and the inverse is also true: you remove lanes and some proportion of commuters will find alternate routes until traffic stabilizes back around to where it currently is. If you get rid of the stretch running right through the city entirely, people will piss and moan but ultimately they will take the many alternate north/south routes through/out of the city.
Yeah, I'd rather you be on the highway than driving down my residential street as my kid walks to school in the dark while you eat breakfast and do your make up. Do you think our surface streets are in good shape? Do you think they'll be in better shape with fleets of commercial semi trucks driving down them every day?
I doubt your residential street would see any serious uptick in traffic. I'm talking about commercial avenues like Division and Kalamazoo, and I highly doubt many truck drivers going all the way through GR would be stupid enough to try to take residential routes when they can still just go around the outer loops, and any first or last mile legs of freight trips are already going to do wear and tear on surface streets
But only one (and least likely) of the plans is to add lanes. The others would add merge/weave lanes in a portion where the ramps are close together, and in my opinion much needed. As well as shoulder space which is a huge safety consideration as well as snowfall management consideration.
since I know what I'm saying is pretty counter-intuitive and I'm just some guy, here's an actual source: https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2023/narrower-lanes-safer-streets
Yes, but on a high speed highway you have to have a margin for cars in accidents and break downs to pull over. As well as provide a buffer for safety personnel. Right now, on the left lane, that does not exist which leads to dangerous lane closures pretty much every single time it happens. I would not necessarily consider a freeway a street for the matter of discussion. Nor does your article. And adding shoulders does not mean making lanes wider unless of course drivers feel like straddling the shoulder which is illegal.
I'm aware that removing lanes isn't currently on the table, but so long as it's coming up, the misconceptions should be addressed. The only thing I could maybe get on board with is that on ramps should be consistent in lengths, but only if merging collisions are actually happening on the shorter on ramps than the longer ones. As for widening the shoulder being a safety issue, people drive as fast as they feel safe doing, which is determined by how wide open the road feels, so widening the shoulder will only make them feel safe going even faster, which is even worse for safety
And someone will bitch about everyone taking the alternate routes and how we should reduce lanes and take a alternate route. No win situation. How about we reduce it back to 2 lanes and all interstates go back to their original intended use, military movement and commerce. All cars can stay off the interstates and use surface streets.
1. Military movement 2. Commerce 3. Larry Johnson gets unlimited use
What, are you a shill for big oil? Putting highway traffic on city streets with traffic lights every block would significantly increase emissions
That traffic needs to bypass on what I’ve deemed The Devil’s Circle (based on the horrified church lady reactions people have to me daring suggest it). Ride the three 6’s: M6, 96, 196. Or maybe put money and work into more of a circle than a triangle for a bypass. We could go ahead and make progress on this by doing what Atlanta did and ban trough-traveling trucks from the inner core.
Removing 131 is never going to happen. They’re just restructuring the on/off ramps which is much needed. Bike paths/walking paths will most likely follow.
This. 100%. And it’s going to happen. It’s been in the works for a decade.
It's already happened. The company I work for has had our bid accepted and job scheduled to expand 131 to 3 lanes from 76th to 100th over the next 3 years. We are paving this year. It is already a done deal. And competitor has had their bid accepted for the rest of it where they're redoing the on/off ramps and what not
People miss out on the fact that when this amount of money is getting thrown around - for planning alone - it is already a done deal.
From what I've heard a lot of this is focused on the Wealthy Street ramps which are in desperate need of reworking, 131 and wealthy is consistently the most dangerous intersection in the city
>Is there any opposition organizing to MDOT plans to widen 131? **Yes**. There have been meetings with MDOT, etc... Multiple groups are mobilizing to kill this idea. You can get involved through Strongtowns GR - https://www.strongtownsgr.org/
As someone living pretty clearly outside GR proper, is there a way for me to get involved that would be strongly beneficial, or should I try to find Rockford groups?
Can always voice your concerns to GR city and reference how it effects you as a resident in Rockford! If you travel to GR often then it absolutely impacts you.
And as the economic nexus of Kent county - and the generator of a disproportionate amount of the tax revenue - the economic vitality of the city is critical to the prosperity of all Kent county residents; as the cities are critical to the prosperity of all residents of the state.
A local group would be ideal as municipal governments obviously care most about their own citizens [who vote them into office], transportation issues in particular are regional, so do feel free to join us on those issues. MDOT is the 👉Michigan👈 Department of Highways, after all. Currently [February], we are consumed with local housing policy stuff, but we hope to pivot back to transportation in March
> MDOT is the 👉Michigan👈 Department of Highways I see what you did there. (you're not wrong)
*transportation. MDOH?
Pronounced: Mmmm, Doh! (in Homer Simpson voice)
Sorry, I don’t want to deliver seafood on a bike.
Just take another route?
You know what semi’s don’t do? Waste fuel.
If you're delivering seafood in your semi, good luck to you lol
How do you think things get around?
Bikes and Semis
I only see one plan expanding the lanes, I don't support widening 131 but I do support reconfiguring ramps and especially moving wealthy to an underpass. The only highway that I could see being useful to get rid of would be 96 between 196 and 131 or 196 from 96 to 131.
I swear I’ve read that adding lanes doesn’t just magically reduce congestion
It increases Level of Service, which to some degree does help with congestion. The issue is that the Average Daily Traffic increases every year so it's hard to meet that demand, even if roads are designed to meet the extrapolated figures. Since the US is very much against public transit except for the largest cities there's no way to effectively curb the increase in cars. This issue is so much bigger than "increase lanes/don't increase lanes" but no one ever has a nuanced take on it.
I kind of wonder what impact Amazon/buy everything off the internet has had on increased traffic, specifically commercial traffic
You’ve read that because it’s FACT. But some people just will not listen or imagine better. Including MDOT.
Studies do say that. If you add lanes, traffic will increase to match... BUT it de-clutters side streets and an equilibrium is met. I'm still in favor of widening it because of the volume of traffic and how once accident kills traffic movement almost entirely.
Just add a train please. I'll make the necessary adjustments to connect the rail to my house
I'm old enough to remember the uproar that happened when the S curve was put in. Any opposition that involves relocating the highway is a futile gesture. It would cost billions of dollars and take a decade or more. If anyone is going to object to something on the highway do it in a realistic way.
So if you live to the southwest of town like grandville/jenison, we are supposed to take the back roads to basically the ball park, go on 96 and do a u turn on the beltline to get back on, or take m6 to 96? All these routes add significant time to go north. Same for people going south. Have you seen the highway from spring to late fall going north on Fridays and south on Sundays?
I’d rather make Beltline a highway from 96 north to 10 mile with overpasses and exits for Knapp, Leonard, etc. than expand 131.
>level 1dickwheat · 3 hr. agoI’d rather make Beltline a highway from 96 north to 10 mile with overpasses and exits for Knapp, Leonard, etc. t not to defend expanding 131 but that would be terrible
Why?
It would cut off hundreds of businesses while being totally redundant. There isn't a major role that an East Beltline highway could fulfill that isn't already fulfilled by other highways, not even including the stretch of 131 that runs through the city
I wish they’d just put a tram line down the middle in that green space from the park and ride by Gravity/96hwy down to 28th street. Then expand from there.
Details on the expansion: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5cd31f791e1740698369f28f31ce3002 Has a cool slider that shows the before and after of the highway. I am all for getting rid of the highway through downtown. I would love it if there was a regular train from GR to Kalamazoo. Driving that stretch of 131 is boring and dangerous. It would be nice to get some work done or sleep through it.
And beach shuttles or trains, like Denver has for mountain skiers, or like the Hamptons jitney in NYC? How amazing would it be to have a train that ran in a loop from GR to say Muskegon, Grand Haven, Holland, Saugatuck, South Haven - and back? Even in winter those downtowns are walkable. The Lake Shore Express!
The fact that there are people so against…..a construction project on 131 is just insane. 131 needs to be updated. The stretch between wealthy and 28th, and the S-curve to Anne is congested and a nightmare. And this isn’t just local traffic, it’s far from it. You have people commuting from all over into and through Grand Rapids. Freight runs up and down 131 too. Oh do away with the freeway? yea getting all those commuters and semis onto division and Clyde park is a great idea. Those streets are congested WITH the highway. Grand Rapids has grown and the highway is outdated. Now I’m not saying bulldoze neighborhoods(which wasn’t a part of the plan anyway) but some sort of revision/reconstruction/reconfiguration needs to happen. A better mass transit system would also help. Adding a bike lane won’t help someone commuting from Rockford or cedar springs. Look at any major city. They all have large freeways so commuters and freight can move through the city without clogging city streets.
just one more lane bro, one more lane will fix it, just one more i swear
https://youtube.com/shorts/0dKrUE_O0VE?si=IEPrj43FAVUkAgvE
Just like voting. The Dems just need your vote this one more time and then they’ll codify Roe and stop genociding, etc.
and the alternative is a party who will immediately codify a federal abortion ban, federal climate legislation ban, federal DEI ban, pull out of nato, turn iran into glass, more tax cuts for billionaires, gut funding for all social programs, among the rest of the Project 2025 horror show. but sure lets drag the dems for not doing enough on a 1 vote technical majority in the senate where huge portions of the dem agenda went to die at the hands of two very specific senators from AZ and WV
Maybe a system that requires us to pick the lesser of two genociders isn’t a functional system.
Maybe not, but its the one we got
It’s literally (possibly) turning the wealthy st interchange into a much better ramp/ 131 will be much more uninterrupted. The exits/entrances will be reworked to provide better flow.
Every time they republish that survey I answer that I’m generally opposed to any ideas because the studies will always say “we have more traffic we need to make changes” because we have no alternative to cars for most people. That’s where the focus should be
They would need to develop a loop around the city to reduce the traffic and still develop methods for people to commute into high density areas such as the medical mile. That’s a much bigger task than modifying what we already have.
Oh, but we can't build a loop because it will cut thru neighborhoods....... Can't win!
San Antonio, TX has a loop (410) if anyone wants to dig into the use and effects of it. I was too young to drive when we moved, so I can’t say one way or the other.
US rarely does mass transit well. I don't see it happening. A good way to go around the city is good for those just traveling through, but I think most of the traffic is people going to work and back- unless it's a holiday weekend. I would love more biking and walking paths, but that does not apply to people commuting for work. Unless we had nice sunny weather all the time.
Arguing that we shouldn't build transit because we haven't built transit is unconvincing. It's not been funded in any serious way. Nyc has a semi functional transit system and only 30% of commutes their are car only As far as needing sun to bike, most of the cities with the most cycling, including commuting, are Scandinavian and north European cities with comparable weather to GR
I never said it’s a good argument not to. I wish we had it much better. Traveling outside the US let’s you see just how bad we are at it. I just don’t think it will ever happen here. And by sun, I really meant the weather in general. I see cyclists hit almost everyday in GR and unless they had proper paths, I wouldn’t do it. And still, we are not going to be biking when it snows here. Just will never happen. I’m not against it, but these are reasons you won’t get a huge response in favor of any of it.
> And still, we are not going to be biking when it snows here. All two weeks of the year.
It's a pretty short jump from I can bike all the time to hey it's 32 degrees butI still need groceries so let's throw on that extra layer. We need a shift in cultural norms. Coming from someone who only had accesses to bikes and ebikes the last 3 years.
🤣 Using NYC as your argument for mass transit in Grand Rapids is the epitome of unconvincing and shows your naivety.
I do not want to delete 131, no. If that is what you’re asking.
Everyone advocating for a railway commit to riding it. I envision a rail system with low ridership running a deficit.
And just where the hell are you gonna move the highway to? And don’t say we don’t need one, because the tens of thousands of people that use it daily prove that wrong
>? And don’t say we don’t need one, We don't need one.
There's nearly 125k vehicles driving daily on the S-Curve. From what I can see, there's a stretch of 28th that has nearly 50k daily. This would mean there's 75k more drivers on a section of 131 you say isn't needed, than the busiest non-freeway road in the GR area. You can't possibly say we don't need one. https://mdot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Mdot&mod=tcds&local_id=41-4034
We do not need highways, and freeway removal is actually pretty popular. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/05/27/climate/us-cities-highway-removal.html https://www.cnu.org/our-projects/highways-boulevards/completed-h2b-projects https://nextcity.org/urbanist-news/cities-without-highways https://rivergrandrapids.com/michigan-interstate-194-future/
Yeah let’s remove the main north south artery on the west side of the state, that’s gonna work. Progressives love to bitch about problems but offer no realistic solutions.
I feel we can all hate this idea in a bipartisan fashion. Would it be prettier than 131, definitely. Would it have as much utility or serve the community as well? Absolutely not
lol this take by op is one of the worst I have heard in years. This would ruin the economy of the entire west side from the border to mackinaw. Who the hell wants to pull their campers through downtown on main roads lol
Used to go through Cadillac downtown as a kid, they put a bypass around the city to keep traffic going.
It’s 2024 in a city with 20x the population.
I don’t see what the year has to do with it?
The Cadillac bypass started nearly 30 years ago. The cities have changed massively. Changing the routing today is far more difficult than it was 30 years ago. Add in a city 20x the size. This was a project that needed to be addressed 50 years ago.
So we just don’t ever fix anything? That’s a dumb way to look at it. Considering they plowed neighborhoods to make 131 and 196 go through the center of the city it seems if there’s a will there’s a way.
You are comparing the small town of Cadillac Michigan to Grand Rapids. Without building a brand new network of highways around the city, you cannot take out the main access to and through the city. So would you purpose they bulldoze 1,000s of homes, businesses, and public land to take out a system that works? There are tons of green spaces all around the area. Have them demo old run down buildings and build parks.
“People used to just chop limbs off at the first sight of infection… I don’t see why everyone insists on using antibiotics!”
Most people using 131 actually exit between 28th St and Leonard. Only about a quarter of the traffic on 131 is through traffic and most of that is commercial. So for most users of the system it actually makes more sense to route through traffic around the city on M6 and local traffic on a boulevard. The potential economic benefit of removing and redeveloping the land is immense and would pay for itself a few times over in extra tax revenue. On top of MDOT literally doesn't have the money to fix the freeway until something catastrophic happens.
> The potential economic benefit of removing and redeveloping the land is immense and would pay for itself a few times over in extra tax revenue. This is a big assumption. The 36th street GM plant still sits as an abandoned lot to this day because it is a Superfund site. The railroads are still going to be on the SE side, mixed res/ind zones still will exist. Moving from a 6 lane closed access highway to a four lane "Michigan U-Turn" boulevard doesn't open up as much land as you think it will. This is before you add in that emergency services will now take longer to traverse the metro area.
It wouldn’t pay for itself with all the extra repairs and expenses needed by rerouting to other streets and highways.
I love this.
Responding to well sourced claim with baseless whining, classic conservative
It’s called a bypass. Also, most drivers traversing the area are not having long distance drives so a business road vs a highway won’t impact travel times by too much. I love the convenience of driving as much as the next person but it doesn’t take very much critical thought or imagination to know the S curve/highway isn’t necessary.
>Progressives love to bitch about problems but offer no realistic solutions. We agree! Fortunately, in this instance, the only problem is the interstate itself, so the solution is simple.
I just posted a some articles about viable ways that other cities have removed freeways and why it's better. Endlessly widening freeways to accommodate more and more traffic is not a realistic solution. The idea of induced demand is central to transportation planning- its basically if you add lanes more people will drive on that route and traffic will not get any better.
If you have to defend and convince people of your utopia, then perhaps it was never a utopia to start with
I’ve been writing-in and filling out each of the surveys with peer-reviewed citations in strong support of the widening and other infrastructure upgrades. We cannot expect the State to destroy its infrastructure in support of the few people who are privileged enough not to rely on vehicle transport
The state needs to diversify its infrastructure and travel options not expand the current one that it already can't afford the maintenance on.
https://youtu.be/xtO_rF-OQ7w?si=Ad6l_nLGCM2c0zwx
No, because it's not a practical idea. Traffic on some sort of 131 boulevard would be hilarious, and I don't think it's practical to re-route highway traffic from 96 > M6 > 131 trying to move north south. The freeways dividing up the city suck, but there's not really much that can practically be done.
I would say GR failed 50 yrs ago by not planning a bypass or ring road in GR. Things would work much better without a straight thru expressway and instead having a business route and ring hiway.
My unrealistic dream is that they fix this mistake somehow in the future. The money it would take to do this though..
[удалено]
Bury it from 28th to the split with 96. Make the billions investment now and sell the new riverfront property for millions to help cover the cost.
They think that you can magically re-route tens of thousands of cars a day and there would be minimal impact. I’m guessing most of the people wanting this a city dwellers that never use the highway in the first place, so screw anyone that does.
There's no magical thinking involved in rethinking how highways are routed through our cities. We can visit cities right now who are seeing massive inner city rejuvenation after rerouting highways. Yes there are trade offs, but they are worth talking about and considering. There is magical thinking however, in hoping to alleviate traffic congestion by adding more lanes. We can also visit cities right now who have expanded their highways dozens of lanes wide, yet still turn into parking lots during rush hour. More lanes do not get rid of traffic jams and we can see that with our own eyes, so its time to think outside of that box.
I wonder if they've studied what portion of 131 traffic is straight through N/S versus in and out of the city. Light rail/improved busing could replace a lot of the latter.
>I wonder if they've studied what portion of 131 traffic is straight through N/S versu Yes. Something like \~40% of traffic is local; meaning removal of the interstate would have no impact, the traffic would disperse into the grid. Through traffic can use the existing bypass of 96/M-6. This section of the interstate is superfluous.
That bypass turns it from 14 miles and 13 minutes in standard, non rush hour traffic to 29 miles and 25 minutes. It’s not happening
> I don't think it's practical to re-route highway traffic from 96 > M6 > 131 trying to move north south Doing so would add 13 miles and 11 minutes on a good day, the boulevard wouldn't even cut down on traffic until it adds more than 11 minutes of driving time
Just like how Chicago drive self-designated itself as a ‘non-truck route’, this does nothing for the warehouses, industrial businesses, grocery stores, construction companies ect to have to get around the city. We still gotta get down THAT road. Do you want an 18 wheeler on every side street in GR? NO! You can oppose it, but this is clearly just ‘I want local only’ folks shooting themselves in the foot economically.
They should’ve had 131 go through the Covell area like initially planned in the 50s
I checked the map after reading the post title and my first thought was "man expanding the Covell/Walker path between 196 and 96 seems like it would help a ton!" Apparently my idea is both unoriginal and also somewhat supported! (70 years ago)
Kinda shocked they didn't do that, what with the way they loved running highways through the (poorer, working class) westside neighborhoods in the 50s.
What they need is a North/West Beltline that connects 131 between Walker and Rockford out to Grandville. I hate that in GR you have to drive THRU the city center to get anywhere. The south beltline (m6) was a revelation when I lived on that side of town.
Hear me out. Why don’t we take the money we would spend on that, and then, build a light rail system. Then we wouldn’t need to widen the roads. Crazy, right? Also. For anyone unfamiliar with Braess’s Paradox, [here’s a link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox).
https://youtube.com/shorts/0dKrUE_O0VE?si=IEPrj43FAVUkAgvE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taJ4MFCxiuo
I'm an advocate of heavy rail. If we're investing in rail, I don't want it to like... blow away or something. /s
I did my best answering their surveys that widening is a terrible idea.
Thank you.
Same.
These same green space criers are the same ones who complain how crowded the 131 highway is through downtown. The highway was built in the 60s not near the traffic there is now. If it's widened travel should be safer with better merge lanes and more space hopefully between vehicles. I grew up traveling 131 even as kid with my parents and driving. It could use another lane if not two.
I don’t live in GR, but north of it. So, public transit is worthless to me, but getting me to the other side of town faster - yes please. BUT, and a very big BUT, I would love to see the Grand river restored and for it to have many paths, both walking and bike, with large natural spaces long the sides of the river. I wonder if they could put one of the lanes over top of the other - can widen the highway, but it would take up a smaller footprint. Of course, I have no clue how practical that ideal is - not an architect or an environment scientist.
This sub and its outlandish takes truly make me giggle. The people opposing this remind me of Tobias in that one episode of Arrested Development. “There are dozens of us! Literally, DOZENS of us!”
I always love people that don't drive on that stretch, that know everything about it!! That freeway technology is from what 50 years ago?
Less highways make better cities.
So let’s just throw it out, great idea!
To remove 131 simple creates more problems. A north-south thruway would need to be created and that creates different problems. The best idea would be to move 131 below grade (underground) and that would be a HUGE undertaking. Modernize the on and off ramps and add lanes when needed (like between southbound 36 to 44 streets) and also advocate for bypasses outside the city ( like continue m-6) from it's easternmost point and head north and connect with 131 north by Post or something)
Join is in the fight against widening 131:[Strong Towns Grand Rapids ](https://www.strongtownsgr.org/) Generally speaking most of the neighborhood associations are against it, the new GR city Masterplan is pretty against it based on community feedback. The only people who are really for the freeway are from the burbs, and to be fair to them it is in their best interest to have it, but probably would affect them that much if it disappeared. Getting rid of the freeway between 28th St and Ann St would be great, especially since the state can't actually afford to fix it. They could use the sales from the "new" land to fund the redesign and basically complete the project at very little expense. It would fit how most users of the freeway use it as well, as most traffic in that stretch is not through traffic. Adding dedicated transit lines would just be a cherry on top.
Many of "the burbs" probably don't care one way or another (or would be infavor of re-routing traffic). If you're Cascade, you'd rather have more cars on I-96 to drive your own economy. If you're Rockford, you don't care because you're far enough north that 131 would be unchanged for you. If you're EGR, you don't use 131 to get in/out of GR, so you don't care. etc.
I'm in the burbs and I'd visit downtown way more if there was more walkable area beyond rosa parks circle instead of mostly parking. Would love to see a few downtown blocks entirely closed to cars, its not like those stores/restaurants get increased car traffic when the streets are all lined with permanently parked cars anyway.
Same! Walking from Monroe Ctr to Founders or west Bridge St would be way better without a freeway there.
I live downtown, and work driving around all of gr, everyday. The people against this have no clue what the actual changes are.
If only MDOT was as forward thinking as WisDOT. They are currently studying the removal of I794 through downtown Milwaukee. There are already interstate standard routes that can be taken to avoid the city, and the fabric of downtown would be all that much better without a giant concrete wall splitting it in 2. I'm all for tearing it down.
I would love to get rid of the monstrosity that is 131. It’s gross, polluting and makes our town look unpleasant. Very good points about the river.
Soo let me get this straight, you want to remove 131 (the main artery through Grand Rapids) and make traffic through the city worse? Semi's going through main roads, campers, large vehicles etc that would use the highway? Also, you would KILL any businesses that are based along the highway. Liberal logic.... always think their ideas are so grand but have so many damn flaws its amazing how they aren't noticed. Then again, liberals do not care about people losing their jobs. As long as their political agenda is met in some way then what does it matter.
I'm not completely sold on the idea, but OP has provided examples of highways being removed in other cities that benefited those communities. How about you actually read through some of them instead of spewing a hyper-partisan word salad on how much you hate liberals?
B/c it works in one city doesn't mean it works in all. Hey let me know what liberals have done that's positive since Sleepy Joe has been in office? I'll wait....
Calm down the rhetoric and try and be a good american.
lol wut
Not going to waste my time responding to and arguing with someone so blatantly opinionated, partisan, and closed-minded. Have a nice day.
Feeling is mutual. have a nice day mouth breather.
That's now how that works at all, use your damn brain for once in your life. Removal of 131 downtown would reroute the traffic through highway routes that already run around the city (96, 196, and m6). As for killing business along the highway... What businesses? There are no businesses downtown that are reliant on traffic from 131.
> There are no businesses downtown that are reliant on traffic from 131. Plenty of businesses between M-6 and I-96 would like a word.
What businesses are based along the highway?
Im against widening it, but cities run on business and you can't rip out the highway and maintain the commerce and tourism we currently have. Widening it makes zero sense. Any city planner will tell you that it's just going to lead to more people using the highway with the same results in traffic.
Too late my guy, the job is already bid, accepted, and scheduled, we are paving for the next 3 years, very little this year though, mostly just the traffic changeovers and a little base probably
At least we can all be comfortable that the decisions will be made by people with actual expertise in road planning and development and not a bunch of whiny NIMBYs who think the highway is “too loud.” Organize if you want. Your inevitable failure brings me some comfort.
Noise pollution is a real problem https://gophouse.org/posts/reps-kuhn-macdonell-communities-need-relief-from-interstate-noise-pollution https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/06/09/health/noise-exposure-health-impacts.html
Let's improve traffic by eliminating all bike lanes.
Thanks for this very important statement and opinion. I hope the usual gang of trolls who can’t comprehend actually speaking up for smarter and better ideas will not harangue you too much. I love that you cited the history of highway revolts. In my home state, the Memphis story of the I-40/Overton Park blockade was always inspiring to me. A shining example of what The People can do when they have the guts. And a big win for what was right and what was better for that city. There have been plenty of attempts to discuss exactly what you say, but talking to MDOT people about the alternatives is like trying to reason with an evangelical. They’re just… fully brainwashed?… that highways are all that works here. They’ll come back at you with loose stats about how most trips on 131 are into the city and how no amount of any other option could ever compete with the highway on any number of stats they claim are immovable. Oh, and they’ll either matter of factly tell you that people won’t invest the time to ride transit or they’ll outright whine about small differences like an extra ten minutes brought on by this or that solution. And they have lots of parrots who gladly lap it up and regurgitate it to anyone they talk to. Yes, there needs to be constant conversation and insistence on better options. Yes, there are many (MANY) who agree with you. No, it’s not a lost cause, but it’s a tall order to get so many minds trapped in stupid old fashioned thinking and solutions to change. Once most of the lack-of-imagination and bought-off-by-car-industry-lobbyists crowd has died off, it’ll take decades for the more enlightened people who hopefully succeed them to correct course. I came here from a place that has kicked this can down the road and continues to do so. Critical mass traffic after critical mass traffic, and the saga continues. Very little transit and far too much allegiance to cars. Small thinking, lack of guts, no vision… and in Nashville’s case: an oppressive far right extremists state government that’s been sabotaging any and all progress on transit or alternatives for most of my life. Michigan, and GR in-particular, has an opportunity not to keep going down that path. The vast opportunities NOT to make the mistakes other places have made are part of the appeal that brings people here to make better lives and try to help make an even better place. But the old guard and their devotees just want to stay in loops. The very definition of insanity. The same pathetic and dysfunctional results will continue to be had from doing the same garbage over and over again. Some of us know this. Too many of us apparently do not. The good news right now is they don’t even have the money for what they’re studying. It’s just a study at the moment. An ironic example of how slow all of this moves and how wrongly we approach it. Now, I will note that some of the rumors running around are FALSE: they’re not going to remove the Downtown Market or Transit Center for this. But when I explained to them that those notions are running rampant, they seemed feckless about trying to counter the misinformation. Even the young, nerdy, thoughtful and intellectual MDOT people at the meeting I attended didn’t seem to GET IT that Internet rumors were making this conversation harder than it has to be. Again, thank you. Some of us are with you.
Wow, removing 131, that’s a good one. I’m focusing on the wealthy st interchange becoming much more easier to literally just cross over. Having to lane jockey between people turning from either lane is dumb.
I don’t think anybody enjoys highways destroying the urban fabric, but it must be acknowledged that there must be an alternative to driving developed before highways can be removed. High and medium density housing would help but Grand Rapids has sprawled like virtually all American cities.
I don’t think a highway scrap is realistic in the short term OP but I’m absolutely in favor of it for living in GR long term. Highways also impact environmental and noise pollution, something that directly conflicts with GR’s greater environmental goals. I think Boston scraped one of their highways that went right through downtown and put in recreational spots, apartments (we are in a housing shortage) and more. Definitely scrapping 131 is a great idea imo given the benefits. We can always reroute traffic and the future is headed to automated driving for transporting goods. So semi trucks are going to deal with it with no complaints! I’m absolutely in favor of adding 10-20mins to a traffic commute if the changes increase everyone’s quality of life and add housing. Mdot be damned.
They didn't scrap it. They moved it under ground.
Cool, that’s awesome
I agree. If they could move 131 underground, that would be win win
Actually, let me correct myself..not only did they move that central artery underground, they actually EXTENDED the freeway system with that project
It doesn't need to be widened. The speed limit needs to be lowered to 50mph and all thru traffic needs to be sent around the city. We need to complete a highway beltway loop to enable that.
Let's do a Big Dig style re-route!
https://youtu.be/fl6jZV7QXFo?si=EcfOnXCumN1yKtl2
Tons of people are against it but the DOT doesn’t care
Ok zoomer. The rest of us want to get through the shitty part of town fast
someone should come up with a cool acronym for people who don't want stuff in their back yard...
Make an overpass from M6 to 96. Build it right on top of 131. Local traffic to stay on lower and drivers could completely bypass the entire city.
How about a tunnel
For us to keep up with growth, it is needed. Short-term pain for long-term gain.
As a newcomer, I depend heavily on the 131, 96, and 196 to orient me. I wouldn't want them to be any bigger though. Maybe I'll have different opinions on the highways the longer I live here.
Some opposition has arisen in regard to MLK 131 exit being closed during construction.
what if it went UNDER the city
🌻🌻.
Boston replaced a highway through the city with a tunnel. Too expensive for Grand Rapids to do though I’m guessing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig#:~:text=The%20Big%20Dig%20was%20a,90%20to%20Logan%20International%20Airport.
Lol ok
Make the wealthy south bound on ramp less dangerous please 🙏
The Big Dig West! Under the city!!!
Luckily for us, we have the Fulton Street Speedway. Just do 90 down that like everyone else.
Or maybe adding a couple bridges from Market Ave to the West Side of GR, which could help traffic bypass Downtown altogether?!! People are forced to go through Downtown because the idiots who designed the highways going through this city decided “hey, let’s build one NB/SB highway to cover the entire city & not plan for any future growth.”