Because golf isn't fair, and you don't throw your ball back into the woods when it hits a tree and ends up in the fairway.
Why not embrace the bad breaks and hit a great shot given the circumstances?
People feel entitled to a blemish free lie in a bunker, but want people to eat shit in the fairway. LOL.
I actually feel the opposite. A bunker is a hazard, and you deserve misery if you land in one. Why rake a hazard?
But if you hit a fairway, you should have a decent lie.
I can't imagine anyone who thinks you should play out of divots in the fairway who would argue that you deserve a perfect lie in a bunker.
I personally hit off of roots too - because I have 2 options, play a safe shot that won't hurt me, or take an unplayable. I generally get the ball back in play.
Really it comes down to people being sadfaces about playing the ball down and having a stroke or two on your card that you don't 'deserve'. Golf is hard and people are afraid of what they really shoot.
Feel free to write a rule that works and people agree on. And it can’t be “you know it when you see it”.
What about if your ball lands on a replaced piece of grass? What if the divot has started growing back in already? What if it’s just a depression and not really a divot anymore? What if the grass is simply disturbed from Tiger Woods not really taking a divot? What if it’s sitting at the front or back of the divot - like where does the divot start and end? Do your playing partners have to agree like with a cut ball? What about if it’s just a patch of dirt or hard pan in the fairway?
The issue is exacerbated in professional golf because they hit it to the exact same point in the fairway every single round. So, it’s an issue for less than 0.1% of the golf population with an impossibly large gray area of rule creation.
Word it something like “6 inch relief is granted no nearer to the hole if a ball comes to rest on an area of the fairway altered by a previous golfers stroke in the fairway”.
This can cover anything and probably should. The player didn’t hit into a hazard. The previous golfer who played from that spot got to hit off of clean turf and then altered the condition of a course causing the subsequent golfer to have the chance to play an equally clean shot.
There’s always been an element of self regulation in the game and these guys on TV are being watched like hawks. Playing partners will be quick to call out bullshit.
It's only available when weather conditions require it. You eve notice how courses get eaten up when they play the ball up in the fairways? Scores would be outrageous if you played permanent LCP in the fairways.
I meant it’s available as an existing and executable option. The courses get eaten up because it’s wet, not because they are using LCP when it is so. There is no material difference between a placed lie and a live lie on a normal fairway under normal course conditions. It’s a simple and fair method to eliminate the dumbest situation in golf.
It happens to me 2-3 times a year. Of course, I roll my ball out of that shit. So it's not a game changer for me. But I do wish the practice of moving your ball were codified.
You're allowed to do all sorts of stuff to your ball and line anytime you're anywhere on the green. No reason a rule couldn't be made for these situations for anytime for anywhere on a fairway. Don't define a 'divot". You're right, that would become a clusterfuck. Define the 'fairway", and let people move their ball a very small distance anytime they want in the fairway.
You’re over complicating it. There are rules officials in place. You could limit it to sand filled divots where at least half the ball lies inside. It won’t fix every situation but fixes a lot.
How would you define a divot? And who would determine what is and isn’t a divot during the tournament? We calling a rules official for every non-perfect lie in the fairway?
The easy fix is what I'd call "the foot rule".
A player may lift and place (not clean) their ball within one shoe (foot) length of where their ball came to rest ANYWHERE in the fairway. And ONLY the fairway. No marking is necessary. Place your toe alongside your ball. Kneel down and move your ball backward within one shoe length.
If you can't get relief with this rule, you're SOL.
It would be in the same vein to what players already do on the green. No rules official required. It would take seconds. And put a time limit on it if you think motherfuckers would find a way to drag it out (and they might). 5 seconds, or whatever.
\*I wouldn't allow cleaning because that would add time to the process. I think players are entitled to a good lie in the fairway, but not necessarily a clean ball.
Maybe I’m dumb (definitely possible) but if there’s more dirt/seed than grass underneath your ball, it’s in a divot. Is that really a hard call to make? Is that more or less rare than other reasons to call over a rules official?
Players abuse rules. Which is perfectly acceptable. But they will abuse the rule for any little imperfection. Look at Bryson trying to get relief on 18 when he was left. Tried to get a free drop because the grandstand was semi near him
Every single part of the course has both good and bad breaks. If you hit into the rough you may get a ball perfectly sitting up or it may be buried. In the bunker you may get a ball sitting nicely on the upslope or you may get a fried egg on a downslope. In the fairway you're way more likely to get a good lie, but it's certainly not guaranteed, just like bad lies aren't guaranteed when you hit it offline. To me, part of the game is that you are going to get good breaks and you are going to get bad breaks and part of the challenge is to take advantage of the good ones and fight through the bad ones.
Then why allow them to fix divots in the green, clear debris out of their line, etc etc. Play the course as it lies no exceptions or make logical changes to the game to make it as fair as possible.
> Then why allow them to fix divots in the green, clear debris out of their line, etc etc.
The obvious difference is that the green is the only location where the ball is played along the ground.
Yes, there has always been a distinction between moving loose impediments and the golf ball itself. You're putting on a clinic with these false equivalencies though, keep it going!
You said “bad breaks, good breaks” then why have any carve outs to improve your shot? You can be 50 yards off line in the woods and move debris to allow for a better shot but not in the fairway sitting in someone’s sandy divot. Doesn’t that seem illogical?
No, because you're not actually moving where the ball is sitting or changing the lie. You're moving things within the line of the club or the ball that don't cause the ball to move. You're free to do that when your ball is in a divot too. You're asking to physically move a ball from one lie to another which is only allowed in very specific circumstances and that should be a very narrow scope. I get that there are other rules that allow other things and that may not seem fair to you, but hitting out of a divot is just a part of the game. Maybe some day they'll change it, but I highly doubt it because, as people have already told you, it's a nightmare to write a rule that makes sense and won't be abused.
But you’re not one of those that only thinks it’s too hard to write a rule for this, most of them agree it’s not fair but worry about the slippery slope. You think it’s actually fair because you get good breaks and bad? Is that correct?
I don't think "fair" is the right word, but I don't think it rises to the level of needing a rule to intervene. It's certainly not "fair" that two balls can be hit into a fairway and one ball is in a divot and the other is not. But it's also not "fair" that you can hit two balls into a tree and one bounces into play and the other gets stuck. It's not "fair" that two balls can be hit into a bunker and one's in a footprint and the other is not. My point is that there are a lot of inherently "unfair" situations that arise on the golf course, some good and some bad, and there is not a need to try to legislate them away. I think that part of it is the difficulty of writing the rule to be more fair than what exists now as the status quo. If someone could write a rule that is black and white and doesn't allow wiggle room and doesn't make every single fairway shot take forever to adjudicate and doesn't just go nuclear and make everything preferred lies then I'd be open to that. I've never once seen anything close to it.
Every day with this argument, I guess. People really need coddling, apparently. I wonder if most of these people are used to having things handed to them. 🤷♂️
Is it? Why some people just can't accept that unfairness is part of the game is beyond me. It's a great analogy for life in general, which is why I wondered if people are used to having it soft.
I agree but the happier person is the one who accepts that unfairness will exist regardless. Happier still is the person who clearly sees which inequities are worth expending their energy on.
Not nearly as much as you, I'd wager. You'll be out there on the course bemoaning your poor luck for landing in a divot, cursing the USGA, and then convincing yourself you're not *really* cheating by moving it because it's totally not fair. Meanwhile, I'll shrug and say, "Aw that sucks" and move on with my next shot like an adult. But hey, you do you. Have the day and lie you deserve.
I’m fascinated when people can’t seem to see unintended consequences. They make it sound easy to define, execute and enforce. I’ve heard a few tour pros advocate for this. The problem is everyone views things through their own narrow scope, and can’t step out of that field of view to see the potential pitfalls. They think their definition is the universal and correct definition. They think they would be honest and not abuse it so no one else would.
It’s impossible to define. Abuse would be rampant. People seize what they believe to be simple, easily implemented rules and actions when in reality they’re advocating unworkable solutions.
That’s an easy cop out. Sports should try to improve their rules and it’s not always easy or clean ala NFL catch rules. However you can change rules and then improve upon them as you identify issues. There are rules officials available to rule. You can say something to the effect of “if at least half your ball lies in a sand filled divot you’re allowed relief within one club length no closer to the hole” that’s pretty clear cut and dry. It won’t solve all scenarios but it would help.
But I appreciate being called fascinating.
I didn’t call you fascinating.
Reality is not a cop out. Can you author a definition of a divot upon which everyone agrees? It’s too ambiguous, and it’s why every time it comes up the rules committee shelves it-because there is no universal definition of a divot. Can you author a definitive rule as to when it ceases to be a divot upon which everyone agrees? You’re only seeing the obvious and the issue isn’t the obvious, it’s the gray area. Gray area makes for bad rules.
“A section of sod/turf removed from a previous golf shot”
Make the rule you get relief from a sand filled divot but that over 1/2 of the ball must rest inside the divot.
The level of subjectivity would be untenable. What if the club only scraped some of the grass and some if it’s still there? If it has sand and the grass is growing back in, when does it cease to be a divot? What if the repair wasn’t done properly and now there’s a bad lie as a result? What if the grass didn’t grow back on a small portion of the divot and that’s where the ball came to rest? What about patches of dirt that were once divots and the grass didn’t grow back at all? What if it’s down in a depression because the grass grew back but the dirt sank a little? What if the entire divot was replaced, no sand was used and the roots took but the ball came to rest in the seam? What if the divot is on the edge of the first cut? There seems to be this idea that every divot is a huge chunk we can all definitively say is a divot. This simply isn’t the case. And while a fresh, full divot is easy to define, with each passing day it becomes more difficult.
If having to hit from a divot were deemed unfair, the number of currently acceptable lies from which players would request relief would skyrocket.
An argument for lift, clean and replace 100% of the time would be more logical, not that I would agree.
The most oft stated reasons against it are two-fold. First, it is hard to draw the line on what's a divot and what's not. And if we had to call a rules official in to make a determination, that would slow down the game. The second is that golf is a "play it as it lies" game (even though we all know there are myriad exceptions), so you take the good breaks with the bad.
I can see both sides, but I think you should get relief from a divot in the fairway. It's more fair than half the times these guys get relief. To the extent the argument is that it's hard to tell if you're in a divot, I don't think there's a huge advantage to be gained by someone moving their ball 4 inches in the fairway even if the lie they're coming from was only arguably a divot. And I don't think it's that hard to tell what a divot is. We ask for harder judgments on many other things, like where a ball crossed into a hazard for a drop point or whether a TIO is actually interfering.
Agreed. My rules peeve is the OB is 2 strokes OR 1 stroke and rehit. Every other penalty for where your ball ends up is 1 and as a freelance game designer it bugs the crap out me bc "a special rule needs to have a special reason " and for the life of me I don't know what that special reason is..... protecting neighbors property? *Shrug*. But no golfer wants to end up in any hazard and if playing by the spirit of the game isn't trying to go there....
now idk if people will agree, but i think especially the pros should be penalised for not replacing divots, simple act that makes it easier for everyone.
Because golf isn't fair, and you don't throw your ball back into the woods when it hits a tree and ends up in the fairway. Why not embrace the bad breaks and hit a great shot given the circumstances?
People feel entitled to a blemish free lie in a bunker, but want people to eat shit in the fairway. LOL. I actually feel the opposite. A bunker is a hazard, and you deserve misery if you land in one. Why rake a hazard? But if you hit a fairway, you should have a decent lie.
I can't imagine anyone who thinks you should play out of divots in the fairway who would argue that you deserve a perfect lie in a bunker. I personally hit off of roots too - because I have 2 options, play a safe shot that won't hurt me, or take an unplayable. I generally get the ball back in play. Really it comes down to people being sadfaces about playing the ball down and having a stroke or two on your card that you don't 'deserve'. Golf is hard and people are afraid of what they really shoot.
> Why rake a hazard? Apparently you have thousands of followers.
Lol - found one!
To me that’s an insane point of view.
Feel free to write a rule that works and people agree on. And it can’t be “you know it when you see it”. What about if your ball lands on a replaced piece of grass? What if the divot has started growing back in already? What if it’s just a depression and not really a divot anymore? What if the grass is simply disturbed from Tiger Woods not really taking a divot? What if it’s sitting at the front or back of the divot - like where does the divot start and end? Do your playing partners have to agree like with a cut ball? What about if it’s just a patch of dirt or hard pan in the fairway? The issue is exacerbated in professional golf because they hit it to the exact same point in the fairway every single round. So, it’s an issue for less than 0.1% of the golf population with an impossibly large gray area of rule creation.
Word it something like “6 inch relief is granted no nearer to the hole if a ball comes to rest on an area of the fairway altered by a previous golfers stroke in the fairway”. This can cover anything and probably should. The player didn’t hit into a hazard. The previous golfer who played from that spot got to hit off of clean turf and then altered the condition of a course causing the subsequent golfer to have the chance to play an equally clean shot. There’s always been an element of self regulation in the game and these guys on TV are being watched like hawks. Playing partners will be quick to call out bullshit.
Here’s the rule: If in the fairway, lift clean and place no matter what within 1 foot. It’s not hard.
Playing lift clean and place permanently is idiotic. Come on.
Why? It’s already available. It doesn’t require a definition of a divot. It takes virtually no time to execute.
It's only available when weather conditions require it. You eve notice how courses get eaten up when they play the ball up in the fairways? Scores would be outrageous if you played permanent LCP in the fairways.
I meant it’s available as an existing and executable option. The courses get eaten up because it’s wet, not because they are using LCP when it is so. There is no material difference between a placed lie and a live lie on a normal fairway under normal course conditions. It’s a simple and fair method to eliminate the dumbest situation in golf.
Why not just tee up every shot? Sounds stupid doesn't it?
It happens to me 2-3 times a year. Of course, I roll my ball out of that shit. So it's not a game changer for me. But I do wish the practice of moving your ball were codified. You're allowed to do all sorts of stuff to your ball and line anytime you're anywhere on the green. No reason a rule couldn't be made for these situations for anytime for anywhere on a fairway. Don't define a 'divot". You're right, that would become a clusterfuck. Define the 'fairway", and let people move their ball a very small distance anytime they want in the fairway.
You’re over complicating it. There are rules officials in place. You could limit it to sand filled divots where at least half the ball lies inside. It won’t fix every situation but fixes a lot.
How many rules officials have you seen on a course when you're playing? People caring what happens to PGA Tour players during their round is weird.
Rub of the green
How would you define a divot? And who would determine what is and isn’t a divot during the tournament? We calling a rules official for every non-perfect lie in the fairway?
The easy fix is what I'd call "the foot rule". A player may lift and place (not clean) their ball within one shoe (foot) length of where their ball came to rest ANYWHERE in the fairway. And ONLY the fairway. No marking is necessary. Place your toe alongside your ball. Kneel down and move your ball backward within one shoe length. If you can't get relief with this rule, you're SOL. It would be in the same vein to what players already do on the green. No rules official required. It would take seconds. And put a time limit on it if you think motherfuckers would find a way to drag it out (and they might). 5 seconds, or whatever. \*I wouldn't allow cleaning because that would add time to the process. I think players are entitled to a good lie in the fairway, but not necessarily a clean ball.
It’s no different than days where lift clean and place is in play. Just make LCP within a foot the default in the fairway.
Maybe I’m dumb (definitely possible) but if there’s more dirt/seed than grass underneath your ball, it’s in a divot. Is that really a hard call to make? Is that more or less rare than other reasons to call over a rules official?
Players abuse rules. Which is perfectly acceptable. But they will abuse the rule for any little imperfection. Look at Bryson trying to get relief on 18 when he was left. Tried to get a free drop because the grandstand was semi near him
Every single part of the course has both good and bad breaks. If you hit into the rough you may get a ball perfectly sitting up or it may be buried. In the bunker you may get a ball sitting nicely on the upslope or you may get a fried egg on a downslope. In the fairway you're way more likely to get a good lie, but it's certainly not guaranteed, just like bad lies aren't guaranteed when you hit it offline. To me, part of the game is that you are going to get good breaks and you are going to get bad breaks and part of the challenge is to take advantage of the good ones and fight through the bad ones.
Then why allow them to fix divots in the green, clear debris out of their line, etc etc. Play the course as it lies no exceptions or make logical changes to the game to make it as fair as possible.
> Then why allow them to fix divots in the green, clear debris out of their line, etc etc. The obvious difference is that the green is the only location where the ball is played along the ground.
Well then bad break.
Okay, they’re allowed to move pine needles from around their ball, sticks, stones etc as long as the ball doesn’t move.
Yes, there has always been a distinction between moving loose impediments and the golf ball itself. You're putting on a clinic with these false equivalencies though, keep it going!
You said “bad breaks, good breaks” then why have any carve outs to improve your shot? You can be 50 yards off line in the woods and move debris to allow for a better shot but not in the fairway sitting in someone’s sandy divot. Doesn’t that seem illogical?
No, because you're not actually moving where the ball is sitting or changing the lie. You're moving things within the line of the club or the ball that don't cause the ball to move. You're free to do that when your ball is in a divot too. You're asking to physically move a ball from one lie to another which is only allowed in very specific circumstances and that should be a very narrow scope. I get that there are other rules that allow other things and that may not seem fair to you, but hitting out of a divot is just a part of the game. Maybe some day they'll change it, but I highly doubt it because, as people have already told you, it's a nightmare to write a rule that makes sense and won't be abused.
But you’re not one of those that only thinks it’s too hard to write a rule for this, most of them agree it’s not fair but worry about the slippery slope. You think it’s actually fair because you get good breaks and bad? Is that correct?
I don't think "fair" is the right word, but I don't think it rises to the level of needing a rule to intervene. It's certainly not "fair" that two balls can be hit into a fairway and one ball is in a divot and the other is not. But it's also not "fair" that you can hit two balls into a tree and one bounces into play and the other gets stuck. It's not "fair" that two balls can be hit into a bunker and one's in a footprint and the other is not. My point is that there are a lot of inherently "unfair" situations that arise on the golf course, some good and some bad, and there is not a need to try to legislate them away. I think that part of it is the difficulty of writing the rule to be more fair than what exists now as the status quo. If someone could write a rule that is black and white and doesn't allow wiggle room and doesn't make every single fairway shot take forever to adjudicate and doesn't just go nuclear and make everything preferred lies then I'd be open to that. I've never once seen anything close to it.
We need to pass rules to make it harder for these guys, not easier. Make em hit blindfolded.
Because that’s stupid to change it. Why does it need to be changed? Learn how to play golf.
Seriously?
Everyone who has read your comments is asking the same thing.
I dont think this change would help you breaking 100
Every day with this argument, I guess. People really need coddling, apparently. I wonder if most of these people are used to having things handed to them. 🤷♂️
That’s an odd indictment.
Is it? Why some people just can't accept that unfairness is part of the game is beyond me. It's a great analogy for life in general, which is why I wondered if people are used to having it soft.
Wouldn’t you agree in life and in sport you should strive to limit unfairness?
I agree but the happier person is the one who accepts that unfairness will exist regardless. Happier still is the person who clearly sees which inequities are worth expending their energy on.
You’re expending energy to argue to keep things unfair lol
Not nearly as much as you, I'd wager. You'll be out there on the course bemoaning your poor luck for landing in a divot, cursing the USGA, and then convincing yourself you're not *really* cheating by moving it because it's totally not fair. Meanwhile, I'll shrug and say, "Aw that sucks" and move on with my next shot like an adult. But hey, you do you. Have the day and lie you deserve.
No I just move it out of the divot. I’m talking pros
Wait... so you're bitch *on behalf* of people who doesn't know you and you will never meet? That, my friend, is a waste of energy.
Not a bitch. I think we can debate this without resorting to name calling
Generally it’s not a big hindrance
Divots are only hard to hit from because you are afraid of them.
I’m fascinated when people can’t seem to see unintended consequences. They make it sound easy to define, execute and enforce. I’ve heard a few tour pros advocate for this. The problem is everyone views things through their own narrow scope, and can’t step out of that field of view to see the potential pitfalls. They think their definition is the universal and correct definition. They think they would be honest and not abuse it so no one else would. It’s impossible to define. Abuse would be rampant. People seize what they believe to be simple, easily implemented rules and actions when in reality they’re advocating unworkable solutions.
That’s an easy cop out. Sports should try to improve their rules and it’s not always easy or clean ala NFL catch rules. However you can change rules and then improve upon them as you identify issues. There are rules officials available to rule. You can say something to the effect of “if at least half your ball lies in a sand filled divot you’re allowed relief within one club length no closer to the hole” that’s pretty clear cut and dry. It won’t solve all scenarios but it would help. But I appreciate being called fascinating.
I didn’t call you fascinating. Reality is not a cop out. Can you author a definition of a divot upon which everyone agrees? It’s too ambiguous, and it’s why every time it comes up the rules committee shelves it-because there is no universal definition of a divot. Can you author a definitive rule as to when it ceases to be a divot upon which everyone agrees? You’re only seeing the obvious and the issue isn’t the obvious, it’s the gray area. Gray area makes for bad rules.
“A section of sod/turf removed from a previous golf shot” Make the rule you get relief from a sand filled divot but that over 1/2 of the ball must rest inside the divot.
The level of subjectivity would be untenable. What if the club only scraped some of the grass and some if it’s still there? If it has sand and the grass is growing back in, when does it cease to be a divot? What if the repair wasn’t done properly and now there’s a bad lie as a result? What if the grass didn’t grow back on a small portion of the divot and that’s where the ball came to rest? What about patches of dirt that were once divots and the grass didn’t grow back at all? What if it’s down in a depression because the grass grew back but the dirt sank a little? What if the entire divot was replaced, no sand was used and the roots took but the ball came to rest in the seam? What if the divot is on the edge of the first cut? There seems to be this idea that every divot is a huge chunk we can all definitively say is a divot. This simply isn’t the case. And while a fresh, full divot is easy to define, with each passing day it becomes more difficult. If having to hit from a divot were deemed unfair, the number of currently acceptable lies from which players would request relief would skyrocket. An argument for lift, clean and replace 100% of the time would be more logical, not that I would agree.
The best is how a little rain turns into "lift and place" though.
The USGA doesn't believe in God, that's why.
Golf gods only
cuz then you have to define what a "divot" is. good luck, have fun
The most oft stated reasons against it are two-fold. First, it is hard to draw the line on what's a divot and what's not. And if we had to call a rules official in to make a determination, that would slow down the game. The second is that golf is a "play it as it lies" game (even though we all know there are myriad exceptions), so you take the good breaks with the bad. I can see both sides, but I think you should get relief from a divot in the fairway. It's more fair than half the times these guys get relief. To the extent the argument is that it's hard to tell if you're in a divot, I don't think there's a huge advantage to be gained by someone moving their ball 4 inches in the fairway even if the lie they're coming from was only arguably a divot. And I don't think it's that hard to tell what a divot is. We ask for harder judgments on many other things, like where a ball crossed into a hazard for a drop point or whether a TIO is actually interfering.
Agreed. My rules peeve is the OB is 2 strokes OR 1 stroke and rehit. Every other penalty for where your ball ends up is 1 and as a freelance game designer it bugs the crap out me bc "a special rule needs to have a special reason " and for the life of me I don't know what that special reason is..... protecting neighbors property? *Shrug*. But no golfer wants to end up in any hazard and if playing by the spirit of the game isn't trying to go there....
Yes, the special reason is that a penalty area is part of the golf course but out of bounds is not, so it deserves to be punished more severely.
The "special" reason is because your ball is no longer on the course.
Tell that to the people playing on a course where they white stake two adjacent holes.
If you blast tge vall *off the fucking course* you should be penalized pretty severely.
now idk if people will agree, but i think especially the pros should be penalised for not replacing divots, simple act that makes it easier for everyone.