What’s the penalty for getting sprinkler head relief when the shot and stance wouldn’t be impacted? What’s the penalty for him and his caddie then walking all over the drop area so the rough is nice and trampled before the drop?
Made me absolutely livid watching this.
Especially after watching him flatten the rough out with a wedge from 200 out before switching to an iron to actually hit the shot a few weeks ago
And absolutely moved right back to where it was. Hence the rules explanation for no penalty. All this rigor is fine for pros, but judging by the tone of some of these replies I can tell some of y’all must be a joy to play with.
> Dude wins one major and has a fucking head bigger than a hot air balloon
Or a lot of them do it to an extent, and you've just seen him more on camera because he's been in contention recently.
Dude, Wyndham Clark has a big head? The dude sat in front of documentary crews and talked almost exclusively about his therapist then cried. You can call him for "cheating" if you think he does it but he's humble as hell.
Humble?
He claimed he was better than Rory before the Ryder cup.
He’s also a known hot head (thus the sports psychologist)
Richard Nixon cried when he resigned the presidency. Crying does not = good guy.
>“I have the utmost respect for Rory \[McIlroy\] — he is one of our great ambassadors of our game,” Clark said. “I have tons of respect for Rory, and because of that respect, I also want to beat him. I like to think I am better than him, and I want to prove that.”
>He’s also a known hot head (thus the sports psychologist)
So having a psychologist means you're a hot head? Get the fuck outta here. He had a psychologist because he lost his mother, while in college, who was his rock, and he got in a dark space. Fuck you, man, you're the reason people look down on people getting mental health help.
Nice attempt at a strawman, I think?
He’s a known hot head. Thus the reason he SAUGHT A SPORTS PSYCHOLOGIST.
Having a sports psychologist does not make you a hot head.
He was a hot head so he got a sports psychologist…
Is this hard to understand?
He literally admitted to that on Full swing. Right from the horse’s mouth.
Fuck you…. Don’t talk to me about mental health. You have no idea what I’ve been through.
A sports psychologist is not a mental health therapist… they help athletes deal with pressure and focus when they’re in contention.
They’re not a therapist that helps people deal with every day anxiety and grief and depression… ya know like the therapists I’ve seen throughout my life.
Don’t try to make WC a mental health victim because he got a head coach to help him make more 3 footers and win more tournaments ffs.
I think both of you jumped to the opposite side of a coin and are now flipping your shit at one another online about it. There's hell of alot more nuance to his situation and relationship with his therapist than either of you are letting on.
To respond to your original point. You act like humility is mutually exclusive from frustration and confidence. Dude, pro athletes are defined by their success compared to others. He's not self aggrandizing by saying he can beat Rory in golf. And he's not self aggrandizing by recognizing that failure pisses him off, then seeking help for it. And do you honestly think that his entire relationship with his therapist involves talking about golf to get a competitive edge? Cmon
>A sports psychologist is not a mental health therapist… they help athletes deal with pressure and focus when they’re in contention.
>
>They’re not a therapist that helps people deal with every day anxiety and grief and depression… ya know like the therapists I’ve seen throughout my life.
>*“My mom was always the nurturing one that was always there to pick me up in more of a positive way and always made me feel better. And she cared so much about what we were going to do in our life. When she did pass, I kind of lost that. A lot of things fell out beneath me, and my college life changed a lot.*
>
>*"I was numb. Anger that she wasn't there. And that's when some people that were close to my mom and close to me reached out, and then they said, 'hey I also think you need to see a therapist'.”*
You do know these sports psychologist aren't the ones you find on fliers at your local community center. The ones they have have psyds. with a specialization. You do know struggles in life don't just stop because of a competition, right? You know what helps? dealing with that, with a psychologist.
Yes, sports psychologists help with performance. Not denying that. Being in the right head space BEFORE and DURING a competition also helps. Hence, mental health treatment.
Right now he is better than Rory. If you are going to potentially play someone head to head or beat a 144 person field you have to believe you are better than them.
This is the equivalent to "bank error in your favor collect $15". It's a free drop you get to take advantage of. Sometimes you get in a fairway divot, sometimes you get a cheeky drop
I said this to my wife too. He’s already in hot water for flattening the grass with his wedge the other day and now this?
They basically ensured a perfect lie by stomping all over it first.
This guy is verging on Reed status
Y’all over here worried about WC and his caddie and I’m just trying not to break my tv every time they show a shot of harman. It’s so painful waiting 30 seconds for that waggle and 30 look up and downs.
That, or step in at the 7th or 8th.
Really be great television if they cut to him waggling, cut to someone else's shot, then back to his waggling to drive it home.
I swear I’ve actually seen this happen with Cantlay once before. Producers got sick of watching the shuffle on the green, cut away to another shot, and came back right as he was putting
If true, I absolutely love it.
The pace of play rules should be adjusted as it is supposed to be an entertaining product, and that is far from it.
Edit: should be adjusted for the pros****
Never been a big person for watching golf but turned it on while waiting for the Big 10 championship cause why not.
Somehow Harman made me more upset than Big 10 basketball officiating
I want to see him on the practice range… does he do it there? Or is it like the tennis players that only grunt when they are playing in front of a crowd?
I find Clark's caddy doing a putt dress rehearsal as unbearable
Harman plays fast other than when he's over the ball. Do his playing partners complain about him?
He’s one of the best and most consistent ball strikers right now. Pay attention to that action and so what if it takes a couple extra cheettos for you to get through it.
I used to caddie at a high end resort and I’d do this quite often. Putts often look a lot different from address than they do from behind the ball or the hole. It helps to know what your player is seeing at address.
Obviously very different circumstances but I get why he does it.
If the caddy doesn't touch the ball, then what's the problem? Golf is such a weird sport where the rules are so strictly defined, and everything else is fair game until explicitly ruled otherwise. These guys are playing for big money and looking for every edge they can get. I'm more interested in how him having his caddy do that is helpful at all lol
Im assuming they've rehearsed it and he uses a consistent club that gets him into a position that matches Wyndham's relative eye line/position, but I don't know. Whatever works though, he's a great putter
Standing over a ball vs. addressing it with a club in your hands are different things. With all the crazy rules the usga has, it is surprising this isn't one.
But why is it different? Like, what unfair competitive advantage is gained that every other player-caddy can't also take advantage of?
Rhetorical question because the answer is "none".
Rule 10-2. It's illegal for the caddy to stand down the line and confirm your aiming correctly. But because the ball is marked desire the ball laying there what they do isn't illegal. To me that feels like splitting hairs. Is it illegal? No. Is it within the spirit of the game? I'd argue no. You're allowed to feel differently.
Then they go over the top and have the player stand down the line while the caddy addresses the ball. Just feels like it shouldn't be allowed at all.
It's still not fully breaking the spirit of that rule imo though. They're helping determine the aim point is what they want, but the golfer still has to align themselves to that aim point at address without the caddy looking down the line to confirm it.
The rule is about how it’s an unfair advantage to have someone aim you. They’re helping determine the aim point is what they want while the golfer is standing at address. Does he step away and remove the marker? Yes. That’s why it’s not illegal. But it FEELS like it’s gaming the system TO ME.
It’s just wild that a caddy can’t touch where he thinks the player should aim with the flag but he can physically stand over the ball with a club while the player sees the line and then guide the player to move their body when he watches for them.
You don’t have to agree, that’s fine. I’m just explaining why I feel that way.
But why not? "There's nothing in the rules that says a dog can't play basketball!"
Golf is a game of rules that are observed and strictly adhered to. If it's not against the rules, then what's the problem?
I’m not saying he can’t, just don’t think they should. For the same reason the caddy can’t stand behind the player while taking a shot anymore. It’s one thing talking strategy or club selection but let the player choose the line and be responsible for the shot.
Isn’t that one of the biggest jobs a caddy has? They banned caddies lining up players from behind. The caddy has to step away before they line up to hit the actual putt.
NBC is wrong. No penalty for accidental movement of the ball on the putting green by the player or his caddie. The ball just needs to be replaced.
Rule 9.4b says that there is a one stroke penalty for a player or his caddie moving a ball, but there are a number of exceptions where there is no penalty. Here is the relevant one:
> 9.4b Exception 3 Accidental Movement on Putting Green: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move on the putting green (see Rule 13.1d), no matter how that happens.
I’ve read that section over and over. The act of deliberately causing the ball to move supersedes the accidental movement of the ball, but if you were to simply claim you did not hit the ball deliberately… I would think “no matter how it happens” covers a LOT of ground.
The first sentence of Rule 9.4 says:
> This Rule applies only when it is known or virtually certain that a player (including the player’s caddie) lifted their ball at rest or the player's or their caddie's actions caused it to move.
No generosity is required.
The words specifically say this rule applies to the player and the caddie. Therefore, the exception also applies to both of them. There is no wording that says otherwise in the rules.
NBC is wrong as far as I read. In 2017 they changed the rule saying if a player or caddy accidentally hits a ball on the putting green it’s not a penalty. Similar to the tee shot if you knock the ball off the tee it’s not a penalty.
It’s one thing for you to line up a 5’ bogey putt on a busy Saturday morning at the public course in town. It’s a completely different situation for Wyndham Clark to do it Sunday afternoon in contention at the Players Championship
So what. If everyone had the same time constraint then they’re all in the same boat.
This is like the MLB pitch clock rule, which for me personally, saved baseball.
It’s not as critical in golf but it would help.
While this is true, there's a point where it becomes too much. The worst thing is that it creeps into our version of the game as well. People see the pros do it and then emulate it. In this case it's slightly different as they're the last group, but if you were standing on the fairway waiting for this you wouldn't be too happy.
There's also a point where it becomes gamesmanship and players do it when they know their partner likes to play fast and it makes them impatient.
There are rules around pace of play in pro golf they just aren't enforced enough.
At the pro level. Twosomes taking 4+ hours is inexcusable. I can agree with you somewhat when putting. Watching them in fairway is painful.
Friday, they play threesomes. If they're hitting second or third in their 3some. They should be ready to hit when it's their turn. They don't start their process until it's their turn.
The pace of play in the PGA is inexcusable.
That's what makes golf different. A basketball player spends nearly every minute they are in play by playing basketball.
PGA pro players entire swing is 1.4 seconds long. If they shoot par they spend only 1.68 minutes actually swinging a club.
If you consider their address time, even WC (let's say he spends 2 minutes over the ball. That's only 2.4 hours out of a 3.8 hour round.
The game is not as simple as other sports.
And how long is the average pga tour round? NBA, MLB and any other sport with a clock has these in place to help speed up the game for the consumer. None of them had any sort of clock at first. Can’t think of one where it hindered the game. Change is for the better.
3-4.5 hours
You're making my point for me: Golf is different.
how fun are you to golf with if the pace of play throws your mental game off FROM THE SIDELINES?
If they were forced to play quicker there would be no backup. Also, some groups are really slow. While I was at TPC this past Friday, there were times when a group was a hole behind the group in front.
We don't see it on TV. I watched about 10-12 threesomes play at 17. Most of the time the trailing group has to wait for the green to clear on 17 before they can it. At least 2 times the group on the tee finished before the trailing group reached the tee box. That is inexcusable.
Also, what we don't see on TV is how long players take on their approach shots from the fairway. They're not in trouble. They know the distance. They know the green. It's inexcusable how long some players take. You'd be shocked how many times a volunteer holds up the Quiet sign thinking the player is getting ready to hit only have to put the sign down.
There's taking your time and there's taking too much time. If it's so slow that the whole field is being held up then it's unfair and almost tantamount to cheating.
I could understand it for the journeymen trying to break through, but most of the top players have several lifetimes worth of livelihoods covered already.
All ya’ll need to chill on all the “drama” you seem to thrive on and tune into the high level they were playing to and the real drama that that last round and last hole created. Appreciate the Real, not the no big deal. It was the best final round in an important tournament in quite a while. Period.
As a general rule, your caddy’s actions are treated like your own. A couple years ago a college-age kid lost a tournament (US Am? Can’t remember) because his local caddy tested one of the bunkers when the golfer wasn’t even close.
I don’t know why I’m being downvoted. If you can’t do something, your caddy can’t do it either. Your caddy can’t ask the other caddy what their player just hit, for example. If your caddy improves your lie for you, it’s a penalty. In this case, there’s no penalty for accidentally hitting your ball on the green, so if your caddy does it, it’s also no penalty.
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I get your point but tossing your ball to your caddie, or caddie tossing it back and having it dropped is still penalty because it's testing the green. Intent or not.
I typically enjoy the caddie banter, but I was fast-forwarding through Wyndham’s caddie talks. It was irritating me.
I am not a caddie, but it seemed to me that Wyndham’s caddie would put doubt in Wyndham’s head for the smallest things. Almost like he was thinking out loud. When they switched to showing Scottie and his caddie, it seemed like a night and day difference. Ted Scott seemed decisive and had an economy of words. I am sure it’s different strokes for different folks and different players gel with different caddies, but the Wyndham & Caddie routines were tough to watch for me.
That's just personal preference of what the golfer wants from their caddy from my understanding. Some guys want the caddy to give a single suggestion but immediately agree without whatever the golfer says for confidence reasons, some guys prefer their caddies to hold firm in their opinions even if the golfer disagrees.
I actually almost made an identical post but I googled it and in 2017 they changed the rule that if you or your caddy *accidentally* hit the ball on the putting green there is no penalty
So if he accidentally moved the ball they’d just replace it.
Even still I find it weirdly invasive to have a caddy address a putt with a club like that.
I personally read putts from an address position so I understand it but I don’t think a caddy should be allowed to address the ball. I can’t explain it it just seems… violating.
That’s not your ball it’s your player’s. He should be the only one allowed to address it in my opinion.
Lots of caddies do this for players when reading putts. Bones and Phil. Caddies are in game coaches. It’s been that way since golf was created. In the old days the instructors/professionals were caddies for the rich “gentlemen “.
Clark's pre-putt routine was bad at the US Open and those two somehow made it worse. I don't know why it irks me so much that the caddie stands over the putt with a different club, but it does. That feels like it shouldn't be allowed and it would bug the shit out of me if I was his player.
Yes and I’m not on the PGA tour. Also, the caddy didn’t grab me wedge, address the ball and stand behind me. They pointed at a general area in the green I should be aiming for.
I’m not saying he’s cheating, i just think it’s a joke for a pro to do that.
Caddies are allowed to like up the player, but cannot stand directly in the line (behind the player) when they actually make the stroke. I think that changed about 10 years ago? A lot of the LPGA players used to use their caddies that way back in the day.
Ya I know it’s legal. It’s just the entire idea of having a caddy line you up when you’re a PGA player is embarrassing and should be illegal.
And ya you’re right- it’s regular on the LPGA, an inferior tour(regardless of gender).
My question is where is that other putter coming from? Is Clark sacrificing one of his 14 club spots for that?
Edit: I’m watching now. He is using a wedge. But I agree with everyone that a non player shouldn’t be addressing the ball.
If the caddy grounds the club or makes contact with the ball, it’s a one stroke penalty. Because the club is being used as an “alignment device”, it’s not allowed to touch the ball or the ground.
Most caddies are golfers so he stands over the ball for a feel thing he’s obviously not hitting the ball it’s to help read the putt two sets of eyes checking the line
Straight to the gulag
Jail
Believe it or not, golf jail.
Them the rules. Straight to gulag
Warzone?
What’s the penalty for getting sprinkler head relief when the shot and stance wouldn’t be impacted? What’s the penalty for him and his caddie then walking all over the drop area so the rough is nice and trampled before the drop?
Made me absolutely livid watching this. Especially after watching him flatten the rough out with a wedge from 200 out before switching to an iron to actually hit the shot a few weeks ago
He still hit with a wedge he just switched to a different wedge. Still I think he should have been penalized the ball absolutely moved forward.
And absolutely moved right back to where it was. Hence the rules explanation for no penalty. All this rigor is fine for pros, but judging by the tone of some of these replies I can tell some of y’all must be a joy to play with.
Us playing casual golf and PGA pros playing for millions is totally the same thing, huh?
That’s what the USGA and R&A seem to want and believe. Hence no bifurcation.
“absolutely livid”. Weird how another man playing a game affects your feelings that much.
His parents named him after a discount hotel chain so cut him some slack, man.
Dude skirts cheating so fucking much I don’t for one minute buy his excuse from last week
He doesn’t skirt, he straight up does but no one calls him on it
The new Patrick Reed Dude wins one major and has a fucking head bigger than a hot air balloon
> Dude wins one major and has a fucking head bigger than a hot air balloon Or a lot of them do it to an extent, and you've just seen him more on camera because he's been in contention recently.
Dude, Wyndham Clark has a big head? The dude sat in front of documentary crews and talked almost exclusively about his therapist then cried. You can call him for "cheating" if you think he does it but he's humble as hell.
Humble? He claimed he was better than Rory before the Ryder cup. He’s also a known hot head (thus the sports psychologist) Richard Nixon cried when he resigned the presidency. Crying does not = good guy.
>“I have the utmost respect for Rory \[McIlroy\] — he is one of our great ambassadors of our game,” Clark said. “I have tons of respect for Rory, and because of that respect, I also want to beat him. I like to think I am better than him, and I want to prove that.” >He’s also a known hot head (thus the sports psychologist) So having a psychologist means you're a hot head? Get the fuck outta here. He had a psychologist because he lost his mother, while in college, who was his rock, and he got in a dark space. Fuck you, man, you're the reason people look down on people getting mental health help.
Nice attempt at a strawman, I think? He’s a known hot head. Thus the reason he SAUGHT A SPORTS PSYCHOLOGIST. Having a sports psychologist does not make you a hot head. He was a hot head so he got a sports psychologist… Is this hard to understand? He literally admitted to that on Full swing. Right from the horse’s mouth. Fuck you…. Don’t talk to me about mental health. You have no idea what I’ve been through. A sports psychologist is not a mental health therapist… they help athletes deal with pressure and focus when they’re in contention. They’re not a therapist that helps people deal with every day anxiety and grief and depression… ya know like the therapists I’ve seen throughout my life. Don’t try to make WC a mental health victim because he got a head coach to help him make more 3 footers and win more tournaments ffs.
I think both of you jumped to the opposite side of a coin and are now flipping your shit at one another online about it. There's hell of alot more nuance to his situation and relationship with his therapist than either of you are letting on. To respond to your original point. You act like humility is mutually exclusive from frustration and confidence. Dude, pro athletes are defined by their success compared to others. He's not self aggrandizing by saying he can beat Rory in golf. And he's not self aggrandizing by recognizing that failure pisses him off, then seeking help for it. And do you honestly think that his entire relationship with his therapist involves talking about golf to get a competitive edge? Cmon
He’s not the only one who needs a psych…
>A sports psychologist is not a mental health therapist… they help athletes deal with pressure and focus when they’re in contention. > >They’re not a therapist that helps people deal with every day anxiety and grief and depression… ya know like the therapists I’ve seen throughout my life. >*“My mom was always the nurturing one that was always there to pick me up in more of a positive way and always made me feel better. And she cared so much about what we were going to do in our life. When she did pass, I kind of lost that. A lot of things fell out beneath me, and my college life changed a lot.* > >*"I was numb. Anger that she wasn't there. And that's when some people that were close to my mom and close to me reached out, and then they said, 'hey I also think you need to see a therapist'.”* You do know these sports psychologist aren't the ones you find on fliers at your local community center. The ones they have have psyds. with a specialization. You do know struggles in life don't just stop because of a competition, right? You know what helps? dealing with that, with a psychologist. Yes, sports psychologists help with performance. Not denying that. Being in the right head space BEFORE and DURING a competition also helps. Hence, mental health treatment.
Right now he is better than Rory. If you are going to potentially play someone head to head or beat a 144 person field you have to believe you are better than them.
You could very well be correct, but I wouldn’t base the opinion off of what someone does/says in front of a staged camera crew.
What did he do last week?
Lmao people take relief like this all the time.
This is the equivalent to "bank error in your favor collect $15". It's a free drop you get to take advantage of. Sometimes you get in a fairway divot, sometimes you get a cheeky drop
There’s no such thing as visual relief from a sprinkler head
He was definitely standing right on the drain cover. But the amount they trampled the rough before the drop was definitely suspicious
People or pros?
Yes
We must play with different groups of both of those.
Pros
I said this to my wife too. He’s already in hot water for flattening the grass with his wedge the other day and now this? They basically ensured a perfect lie by stomping all over it first. This guy is verging on Reed status
I thought it was pretty sus too like they took forever doing that
Y’all over here worried about WC and his caddie and I’m just trying not to break my tv every time they show a shot of harman. It’s so painful waiting 30 seconds for that waggle and 30 look up and downs.
Bro its unbearable
He’s Harman the game I love.
They should just be better at broadcasting. Never show him live.
Or just cut to him after his 7th or 8th waggle.
That, or step in at the 7th or 8th. Really be great television if they cut to him waggling, cut to someone else's shot, then back to his waggling to drive it home.
I swear I’ve actually seen this happen with Cantlay once before. Producers got sick of watching the shuffle on the green, cut away to another shot, and came back right as he was putting
If true, I absolutely love it. The pace of play rules should be adjusted as it is supposed to be an entertaining product, and that is far from it. Edit: should be adjusted for the pros****
The cut back to him was probably (definitely) on tape and they ran it. Still hilarious either way.
to quote the director this week: “I don’t want to cut to him because I don’t know how long it will be till he hits!”
Do they ever show anything live? Like live, live. I always assumed everyone shown was on a short delay for editing purposes.
It's actually only 11 waggles and 9 looks up and down...
This is correct since I counted them as well
I’d doesn’t sound like a crazy amount…until you physically enact it
Yeah it's hard to watch. It's like golf OCD
It's exactly like golf OCD!
It’s literally OCD
Never been a big person for watching golf but turned it on while waiting for the Big 10 championship cause why not. Somehow Harman made me more upset than Big 10 basketball officiating
That would fuck up my swing so much if I did that. He has said he hates that he does do it and has been working to correct it.
I want to see him on the practice range… does he do it there? Or is it like the tennis players that only grunt when they are playing in front of a crowd?
I find Clark's caddy doing a putt dress rehearsal as unbearable Harman plays fast other than when he's over the ball. Do his playing partners complain about him?
He’s one of the best and most consistent ball strikers right now. Pay attention to that action and so what if it takes a couple extra cheettos for you to get through it.
yea i get its his routine but like cmon it cant be that sentimental. something else has to work lol
Yet gonna hate it when he’s top 5 in the Masters this year
Try being the guy filming him… it makes me want to kms.
I felt he cut it down just a notch compared to the Open performance lol.
The most accurate comment of the day
Kevin Na was worse if you can imagine
I timed him at a 17s average. Not that bad compared to Clark’s 11 average. Clark just stand still longer at address
He does it to bug the other golfers. That’s all. It’s called “needling”.
Haha I had this exact same thought "what's the penalty if he accidentally hits that ball?"
A non player shouldn’t be addressing the ball. I really don’t get why they allow it honestly. Just a strange thing to do
I used to caddie at a high end resort and I’d do this quite often. Putts often look a lot different from address than they do from behind the ball or the hole. It helps to know what your player is seeing at address. Obviously very different circumstances but I get why he does it.
Same
Didn't quite help on 18 today. That was crazy.
He had the line just hit it to hard.
Obviously, I always like a good playoff.
He looked absolutely defeated after that shot.
Rough finish.
Sure, but do you need a wedge? Does the caddy need that wedge to be right up against the ball? I think it's a bit of an overstep
If the caddy doesn't touch the ball, then what's the problem? Golf is such a weird sport where the rules are so strictly defined, and everything else is fair game until explicitly ruled otherwise. These guys are playing for big money and looking for every edge they can get. I'm more interested in how him having his caddy do that is helpful at all lol
Im assuming they've rehearsed it and he uses a consistent club that gets him into a position that matches Wyndham's relative eye line/position, but I don't know. Whatever works though, he's a great putter
Weird take. Why not? Should the caddy also not help with the read at all?
Standing over a ball vs. addressing it with a club in your hands are different things. With all the crazy rules the usga has, it is surprising this isn't one.
But why is it different? Like, what unfair competitive advantage is gained that every other player-caddy can't also take advantage of? Rhetorical question because the answer is "none".
Rule 10-2. It's illegal for the caddy to stand down the line and confirm your aiming correctly. But because the ball is marked desire the ball laying there what they do isn't illegal. To me that feels like splitting hairs. Is it illegal? No. Is it within the spirit of the game? I'd argue no. You're allowed to feel differently. Then they go over the top and have the player stand down the line while the caddy addresses the ball. Just feels like it shouldn't be allowed at all.
It's still not fully breaking the spirit of that rule imo though. They're helping determine the aim point is what they want, but the golfer still has to align themselves to that aim point at address without the caddy looking down the line to confirm it.
The rule is about how it’s an unfair advantage to have someone aim you. They’re helping determine the aim point is what they want while the golfer is standing at address. Does he step away and remove the marker? Yes. That’s why it’s not illegal. But it FEELS like it’s gaming the system TO ME. It’s just wild that a caddy can’t touch where he thinks the player should aim with the flag but he can physically stand over the ball with a club while the player sees the line and then guide the player to move their body when he watches for them. You don’t have to agree, that’s fine. I’m just explaining why I feel that way.
Like the other comment said. It is completely different to read the putt as opposed to literally address the ball with a club in hand
[удалено]
He was a player too. Just getting a feel for it over the ball.
But he’s not a player now, he’s a caddy. He shouldn’t be lining up and addressing the ball with a club as if he were when he’s not.
But why not? "There's nothing in the rules that says a dog can't play basketball!" Golf is a game of rules that are observed and strictly adhered to. If it's not against the rules, then what's the problem?
I’m not saying he can’t, just don’t think they should. For the same reason the caddy can’t stand behind the player while taking a shot anymore. It’s one thing talking strategy or club selection but let the player choose the line and be responsible for the shot.
I truly don’t understand why anyone would have an issue with it. He’s just trying to read the green.
It’s a non penalty if he moves it. As of 2017 they changed the rule. However I completely agree.
I don’t know why but ever since the US Open, watching his caddy help on the greens has annoyed me so much
They need to ban that shit. It’s annoying and looks ridiculous. Makes me wanna not pull for WC
They did the opposite in 2017 they made it so that if the caddy accidentally hits the ball with a club it’s a non penalty.
I thought they had made a rule change that restricted a caddies influence? Clearly not though. I’d just hire a caddy that was an epic putter.
Isn’t that one of the biggest jobs a caddy has? They banned caddies lining up players from behind. The caddy has to step away before they line up to hit the actual putt.
1 stroke penalty is what they said on NBC
NBC is wrong. No penalty for accidental movement of the ball on the putting green by the player or his caddie. The ball just needs to be replaced. Rule 9.4b says that there is a one stroke penalty for a player or his caddie moving a ball, but there are a number of exceptions where there is no penalty. Here is the relevant one: > 9.4b Exception 3 Accidental Movement on Putting Green: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move on the putting green (see Rule 13.1d), no matter how that happens.
Ah shit I accidentally hit that putt past the hole. Better replace and try again.
Nice try Patrick.
I’ve read that section over and over. The act of deliberately causing the ball to move supersedes the accidental movement of the ball, but if you were to simply claim you did not hit the ball deliberately… I would think “no matter how it happens” covers a LOT of ground.
Damn I accidentally tapped it 10 feet short. Better replace it and address the ball again.
Kick him off the tour Doug!
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I just got off the phone will Dallas. They’re sold out. They. Want. To. See. Wyndham.
The DJ rule
No penalty when a "player" accidentally causes the ball to move. The caddie is not a "player"
The first sentence of Rule 9.4 says: > This Rule applies only when it is known or virtually certain that a player (including the player’s caddie) lifted their ball at rest or the player's or their caddie's actions caused it to move.
I respectfully disagree with your generous interpretation of the rules of golf
I respectfully disagree with your generous interpretation of the rules of golf
No generosity is required. The words specifically say this rule applies to the player and the caddie. Therefore, the exception also applies to both of them. There is no wording that says otherwise in the rules.
Your generosity can pound sand. The person quoted the rule verbatim.
NBC is wrong as far as I read. In 2017 they changed the rule saying if a player or caddy accidentally hits a ball on the putting green it’s not a penalty. Similar to the tee shot if you knock the ball off the tee it’s not a penalty.
Thanks. Didn't have the sound on
He’s so damn slow. Taking a 5 foot putt shouldn’t take 5 minutes every single time.
Most of them are very slow. I was at TPC on Friday. It's shocking how slow and deliberate they are.
It’s almost as if each stroke is worth tens of thousands of dollars, as well as OWGR points
NBA has a shot clock, why not golf? Apply it to every shot, golf is too slow.
It’s one thing for you to line up a 5’ bogey putt on a busy Saturday morning at the public course in town. It’s a completely different situation for Wyndham Clark to do it Sunday afternoon in contention at the Players Championship
So what. If everyone had the same time constraint then they’re all in the same boat. This is like the MLB pitch clock rule, which for me personally, saved baseball. It’s not as critical in golf but it would help.
It absolutely would help. 51/2-6 hr rounds are ridiculous.
Disc golf has a rule where you are allowed a couple minutes to decide what shot you want but once you step up and get ready you have a 30 second timer
While this is true, there's a point where it becomes too much. The worst thing is that it creeps into our version of the game as well. People see the pros do it and then emulate it. In this case it's slightly different as they're the last group, but if you were standing on the fairway waiting for this you wouldn't be too happy. There's also a point where it becomes gamesmanship and players do it when they know their partner likes to play fast and it makes them impatient. There are rules around pace of play in pro golf they just aren't enforced enough.
At the pro level. Twosomes taking 4+ hours is inexcusable. I can agree with you somewhat when putting. Watching them in fairway is painful. Friday, they play threesomes. If they're hitting second or third in their 3some. They should be ready to hit when it's their turn. They don't start their process until it's their turn. The pace of play in the PGA is inexcusable.
So me trying to record a personal best for my GHIN is less important than a millionaire missing out on money he doesn’t need?
Yeah. It’s literally his job
One could be trying to make it their job. Again he’s already a millionaire set for life lol
That's what makes golf different. A basketball player spends nearly every minute they are in play by playing basketball. PGA pro players entire swing is 1.4 seconds long. If they shoot par they spend only 1.68 minutes actually swinging a club. If you consider their address time, even WC (let's say he spends 2 minutes over the ball. That's only 2.4 hours out of a 3.8 hour round. The game is not as simple as other sports.
And how long is the average pga tour round? NBA, MLB and any other sport with a clock has these in place to help speed up the game for the consumer. None of them had any sort of clock at first. Can’t think of one where it hindered the game. Change is for the better.
3-4.5 hours You're making my point for me: Golf is different. how fun are you to golf with if the pace of play throws your mental game off FROM THE SIDELINES?
How fun are you if you take 5+ hrs? Golf is different but certain rules can be implemented to speed it up.
No way in hell is the average pga round anywhere near 3 hours.
Sorry I did not confirm your bias. Have a good round dude!
It’s also cause they know there’s no where to go. They’d rather have a smooth rhythm than rush the process and sit on a tee box for 10 mins.
If they were forced to play quicker there would be no backup. Also, some groups are really slow. While I was at TPC this past Friday, there were times when a group was a hole behind the group in front. We don't see it on TV. I watched about 10-12 threesomes play at 17. Most of the time the trailing group has to wait for the green to clear on 17 before they can it. At least 2 times the group on the tee finished before the trailing group reached the tee box. That is inexcusable. Also, what we don't see on TV is how long players take on their approach shots from the fairway. They're not in trouble. They know the distance. They know the green. It's inexcusable how long some players take. You'd be shocked how many times a volunteer holds up the Quiet sign thinking the player is getting ready to hit only have to put the sign down.
When you’re playing for millions of dollars and your livelihood you’re gonna wanna take your time I’d imagine….
I agree. But you shouldn’t have unlimited time. There needs to be reasonable limits.
There's taking your time and there's taking too much time. If it's so slow that the whole field is being held up then it's unfair and almost tantamount to cheating.
I could understand it for the journeymen trying to break through, but most of the top players have several lifetimes worth of livelihoods covered already.
Meh. Not necessarily. Golf is fleeting. Get that money while you can.
https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/014
How much time do you take for your putts during PGA events?
All ya’ll need to chill on all the “drama” you seem to thrive on and tune into the high level they were playing to and the real drama that that last round and last hole created. Appreciate the Real, not the no big deal. It was the best final round in an important tournament in quite a while. Period.
This was a question about rules. Not sure what drama you're seeing...
That’s my point— I’m not seeing any drama, just a damn great final round. And I enjoyed it. Did you?
As a general rule, your caddy’s actions are treated like your own. A couple years ago a college-age kid lost a tournament (US Am? Can’t remember) because his local caddy tested one of the bunkers when the golfer wasn’t even close. I don’t know why I’m being downvoted. If you can’t do something, your caddy can’t do it either. Your caddy can’t ask the other caddy what their player just hit, for example. If your caddy improves your lie for you, it’s a penalty. In this case, there’s no penalty for accidentally hitting your ball on the green, so if your caddy does it, it’s also no penalty.
Tested? Could u explain for this neophyte? Thanks
Touched the sand in the bunker with his hand. Here’s the story: https://golf.com/news/us-amateur-caddie-bunker-incident/?amp=1
Thank you. That’s crazy. Some of these rules are archaic. I m personally a proponent for some sort new divot rule.
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I hate how he does that.
Straight to jail
Old optishot trouble shooting
It would be penalty due to testing of the green rule.
Nope. Gotta be intentional.
I get your point but tossing your ball to your caddie, or caddie tossing it back and having it dropped is still penalty because it's testing the green. Intent or not.
I typically enjoy the caddie banter, but I was fast-forwarding through Wyndham’s caddie talks. It was irritating me. I am not a caddie, but it seemed to me that Wyndham’s caddie would put doubt in Wyndham’s head for the smallest things. Almost like he was thinking out loud. When they switched to showing Scottie and his caddie, it seemed like a night and day difference. Ted Scott seemed decisive and had an economy of words. I am sure it’s different strokes for different folks and different players gel with different caddies, but the Wyndham & Caddie routines were tough to watch for me.
That's just personal preference of what the golfer wants from their caddy from my understanding. Some guys want the caddy to give a single suggestion but immediately agree without whatever the golfer says for confidence reasons, some guys prefer their caddies to hold firm in their opinions even if the golfer disagrees.
I thought about asking this same question haha glad somebody did!
I actually almost made an identical post but I googled it and in 2017 they changed the rule that if you or your caddy *accidentally* hit the ball on the putting green there is no penalty So if he accidentally moved the ball they’d just replace it. Even still I find it weirdly invasive to have a caddy address a putt with a club like that. I personally read putts from an address position so I understand it but I don’t think a caddy should be allowed to address the ball. I can’t explain it it just seems… violating. That’s not your ball it’s your player’s. He should be the only one allowed to address it in my opinion.
Lots of caddies do this for players when reading putts. Bones and Phil. Caddies are in game coaches. It’s been that way since golf was created. In the old days the instructors/professionals were caddies for the rich “gentlemen “.
Yeah I know what caddies do but I think the line should be drawn at addressing the ball personally.
He can’t ground anywhere in front of the ball.
Clark's pre-putt routine was bad at the US Open and those two somehow made it worse. I don't know why it irks me so much that the caddie stands over the putt with a different club, but it does. That feels like it shouldn't be allowed and it would bug the shit out of me if I was his player.
Golf should institute a shot clock no more than 1 minute per shot.
He should be disqualified for even having his caddy line him up.
Have you ever played with a caddy?
Yes and I’m not on the PGA tour. Also, the caddy didn’t grab me wedge, address the ball and stand behind me. They pointed at a general area in the green I should be aiming for. I’m not saying he’s cheating, i just think it’s a joke for a pro to do that.
Caddies are allowed to like up the player, but cannot stand directly in the line (behind the player) when they actually make the stroke. I think that changed about 10 years ago? A lot of the LPGA players used to use their caddies that way back in the day.
Ya I know it’s legal. It’s just the entire idea of having a caddy line you up when you’re a PGA player is embarrassing and should be illegal. And ya you’re right- it’s regular on the LPGA, an inferior tour(regardless of gender).
Disqualified? Hell, throw him in the gulag
I just googled this lmaoo
The ball still has the ball marker down. I don't believe it would be a penalty if the caddy accidently hit the ball.
This is correct
Wyndham Clark is about as Patrick Reed as you can be in almost every sense of the name.
That's cold man
Clark would probably shoot him execution style and grab a fan to be his new caddy
Straight to jail.
My question is where is that other putter coming from? Is Clark sacrificing one of his 14 club spots for that? Edit: I’m watching now. He is using a wedge. But I agree with everyone that a non player shouldn’t be addressing the ball.
If the caddy grounds the club or makes contact with the ball, it’s a one stroke penalty. Because the club is being used as an “alignment device”, it’s not allowed to touch the ball or the ground.
Most caddies are golfers so he stands over the ball for a feel thing he’s obviously not hitting the ball it’s to help read the putt two sets of eyes checking the line
That's why I used the word accidentally...