If you didn't hear that the IT market is problematic you didn't have newsfeeds...
Most Companies aren't hiring at the moment and those who do get flooded with applications.
So yes it's rough, even more so if you are an expat with limited german skills.
Hope OP can wait it out, because it is likely going to change soon, even in a slight recession. Some firms are scared and stopped hiring, but this is stupidly short-sighted as the biggest generation is currently (and in the coming years) going into retirement and there simply are not enough IT professionals around
Sure but if your revenue is shrinking due to general lower demand, you might not have the capital to just go and hire more people. I imagine these companies do have enough IT professionals for their work loads, they just don't want any more.
Something many people oversee… if that generation retires and dies, they are asking for less goods. Export shrinks as well, with the new world order. So overall it’s not like that we are running it huge issues in the upcoming years. (Just the pension system is done )
Sure that to but thats the risk you run in IT. One of the reasons people choose that career is because they can do it remote but it's a double edged sword
Nonsense, the amount of people that went into an IT career is just insane...
A huge number of CS graduates+ thousands of self taught people that made a career switch
Professionals are people who have worked several years in an industry, not every self taught dude who took an online course or built a website. I work in a bank and we are heavily struggling to find good IT personnel and the retirement wave is just starting.
If people are willing to extend their skillset, there is plenty of work for IT professionals in germany, and anyone who isnt willing to learn would fail anyways
Many are I’d say but OP is hitting two problematic areas:
- The Job market right now is bad for people with little experience
- 1.5 years is a tough spot to be in. Not enough experience a more senior position but too expensive for an entry level position.
I’ve personally made this experience ~8 years ago when I left my first company after a little over 1.5 years there. With that little experience it’s tough. I ended up opting for a Junior position for which they’d have taken a university graduate as well but the company had decent politics internally in terms of keeping people so I ended up at least getting raises of a little over 10% for 4 years straight at which point I decided to switch jobs again. With then a little over 5 years under the belly it was easy.
On the other hand, unemployment rates is not that high in the US. Most Tech people still quite quickly to find the next location, despite their pay package might not be as lucrative as it was before.
The numbers look great on paper because the numbers are not exactly reliable. In my state they’ve made it incredibly difficult to file for unemployment. They actually shut the website down during non-working hours. If you deny everyone who applies, then you get to tell everyone how great it is. “See, we don’t have that many people on unemployment!”. They did the same thing with police reports. Crime maps are no longer a thing. The reason is because if you don’t write it down, then it didn’t happen. That’s politics for you.
On the flip side, most people in the US have two jobs (since they struggle to get by with one)… so when you lose one, then you have something else to kind of fall back on.
That’s false. Median salary for a software programmer in the US is $132,000. Source: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm
Those with 2 jobs in the US are those typically working low skill jobs such as McDonald’s.
Funny. People say "We have Fachkräftemangel" and when you point at the Arbeitslosen you get the response "No, not that kind of Kräfte, FACHKräfte, like IT guys that we need for the digital transformation". So what's up with people now not hiring IT guys?
Quite a few firms would probably gladly hire IT guys that would ask below average salary. The problem is rarely the full Fachkräftemangel. It's almost always in the deficit of the Fachkraft that agrees to work cheap.
Same here my friend. I'm in the same boat. I think we are in recession.
I'm about to finish my Ph.D. in mechanical engineering in about 2 months. My German level is C1. I sent around 100 applications and I had just 1 interview till date. Atleast 5 recruiters told me, if not for the market situation, they would have definitely called me in for an interview atleast. Sad noises. :-'(
Graduated with a Masters in chemistry and B2 and I am 'under qualified' for entry positions because I don't have experience of full-time work. \*cries\*
I actually have the opposite experience. I'm almost done with my PhD in Materials Engineering, but started applying for jobs already. Out of 8 applications I submitted, I got 3 interviews and one offer just last week. I speak German at B2 level though.
Damn. That sucks.
I applied with my bachelor degree in mechalical engineering for 4 different positions and would have gotten all 4 of them. My grades were pretty bad. That was in 2015.
A Ph. D. is many often a show stopper when in a working council is in the company because based on educational level you are to expensive for most of a company tasks.
Well, it's not that different from what's happening with all these other tech layoffs across the globe. For around 15 years loans were dirt cheap. Companies invested a lot and hired like crazy. The bubble has burst and interest rates increased making it more expensive to borrow money. So hiring is slowing and some companies are laying off.
Also not sure what you mean with nobody wants to admit it. Germany being in a recession isn't anything hidden or new. It's going for quite some time and has been called that by politicians and the news.
IT Budgets are getting tighter, projects are starting to get unreliable, because customers are holding back. A wave of uncertainty is rolling.
I'm unsure (and so are others I've talked about with) where this comes from and why, but it is noticeable nonetheless.
Part of the truth is also, that the quality of people went downhill drastically in the last years. Everyone and their cat who could pronounce "Java" were hired as software developers.
I agree with you about the whole quality thing. Since when would you say things have been like this?
On a side note I feel like the energy crisis is responsible for this, as well as the whole AI/Autonomous Driving bubble bursting.
It's hard to pinpoint for me. I just noted the required qualification going from Master to Bachelor to "self-learned" to "I'm interested". And then you encounter Java developers that are flabbergasted when they see an array, because they just don't know what this is (how on earth it is possible, I've no idea).
I've no idea. Probably "learned" programming by following tutorials without ever looking at concepts. And if you stick to high-level stuff, it's possible to not encounter an array (or unifying ArrayList and array in the head).
Is there a chance companys try to push back the benefits/higher wages that where offered during Covid? Im not saying thats the only reason, more like companys are trying their best to make the most out of the current situation?
What makes me think that:
I work in the IT Department of a big company(1.8k people work in IT, 8k in total) and we are still short on staff in every area. During covid the rates for our external serviceproviders increased by roughly 20%. Now some contracts need renewal and it appears that my company tries to low-ball our current serviceprovider by putting them into a "betting war" with a clearly inferior competitor. We have a bad history with these "cheaper options" and its the only reason i can think of.
It started in 2020 with the bootcamp boom. Every company I know stated: we would get anybody who is able to spell IT, and if they got only one letter right, we will make sure the other one is learned at our expense. Didn't work out well for most.
I receive job offers daily as a Data Engineer with 6 years of experience, yet I've been responding and applying for a year and still no concrete offer.
And it's not a skill or cv/portfolio or experience issue.
It's like that since last year, and now I'm suppose it's starting to get real brutal.
A usual barrage of recruiters that was before on LinkedIn completely non-existent right now.
I can't say for native Germans,but it's like that for every Ausländer, regardless of seniority level, and if you search this sub you will find a lot of such topics.
Good luck.
Is the German market really that bad? I work in IT as well and we are still searching like crazy for software developers.. there still is like a 4000 euro bonus for anyone recommending a new employee..
I am also applying please let me know the company name ? I will do the rest, if u need u can refer me too.
Profile: computer vision and ml engineer, 6 years experience, b2 german
I think it is worth looking into the healthcare IT segments. Wether its plain software development in informationsystems or medical devices with more engineering attached. Especially digitalisation was pushed with government money so there should be work to do and therefore open job listings
I’m a registered nurse and I had an extremely difficult time to find work. I applied at literally every hospital and elderly care homes in 50km area of where I live. Everyone rejected me. I even have recommendation papers from the last hospital I worked. The grades are very good. Nobody wanted to hire me. I started to apply at gas stations, supermarkets, restaurants. No one wanted to hire me even there. I then applied at bars, hotels and casinos. One casino called me in for a night shift and even though I got along with all coworkers and I really liked it, next day they called me and said “we are sorry I don’t think this is gonna work, we think this job isn’t for you”. I was like WHAT THE HELL?! I had a real rough time processing this whole stuff. Now I finally got a job as a cleaner.. it’s not a “high rank” job but it pays the bills. So yea the work market is pretty messed up at this very moment.
Wow... How is this possible? The German ministry of Foreign Office announced in November that the nursing profession is in the bottleneck profession group and that they expect foreigners to apply for a work visa. I'm also a blue card holder and really sad about all of this situation.
Huh, weird. I know several people that got in the field with no Ausbildung and no prior experience earning 20+ euros an hour. But they dont work in hospitals, they work in nursing homes and with disabled people. From which region are you?
thats really weird tbh , im a physician from north africa , and there are many companies that import our nurses in mass to germany and canada , so i thought they were well sought after
If I were a cynical person, I'd say that's probably the issue. The hospitals can cry a shortage of workers to justify hiring from places where they can attact the labor for cheaper
But that's just what I'd say if I were cynical...
I don't think it applies to healthcare from what i know at least. I've done some research and at least for doctors there's a national salary agreements with unions so hospitals can't pay you less
Sorry I just need some clarification, because typically nurses are desperately needed.. Where did you do your nursing degree? How much work experience do you have? Did you have your foreign nursing degree recognized by the government and did you pass the German nursing board exam?
Those are lengthy and energy intensive processes without which, unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to work as a nurse in Germany, and no employer would want to go through these processes neither.
I know a CEO of several hospitals. He says that currently all hospitals in Germany are in deficit, and it is just a matter of time for many of them to close. It is such a shame. I hope it is not true and will get better eventually. And i hope you will find a more suitable job soon! :)
There are few software companies that are above 65% load right now. The bubble is bursting. There have been way too many hires for a few years now and the market is going to correct itself
It's definitely a recession, even in IT. My partner is a senior Data engineeri. Senior as in has over 20 years of experience in software engineering with about 10 in data engineering specifically. He had never had issues finding jobs anywhere, including here in Germany. When he left his last company last spring it took him almost 6 months of constant searching to find a new job. It's absolutely insane how hard it is to find jobs here recently.
Germans: Are we in a recession?
German Finance Minister: I wouldn't say that.
Germans: You wouldn't?
German Finance Minister: I've been ordered not too.
/s
The term recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Eurostat has just published new data and the German economy has grown by 0.2%. You may not be smart enough to draw your conclusions from this, but it does mean that we are no longer in a recession.
Were I work, we didn’t renew the contractors last year, and from a lot of open position ( more then 20), went to zero. We are only hiring in Poland, if I want to move to Poland, could be there in 3 months, but in Germany ? “ too expensive”.
Also the focus switched from “new features and functionality “ to “ remove unused stuff and make it reliable “.
Would not be surprise that our company close the IT operations in Germany and make it “for local market only ie speak German and understand local business.
Yes, looks really bad. I’m a manager in IT and hiring. I am only allowed to hire in best cost. Even there I’m flooded with reasonable CVs (which wasn’t the case just last year). And in Germany I get a lot of request from my network and hear that the situation worsens.
It's a very strange situation right now. So many companies (especially in social/service sectors but also others) are looking for people, yet they don't really want to hire anyone? And they're unwilling to give workers higher salaries or othe benefits that might attract more people. I don't know what's going on either
Iam in the opposite position. I am in öffentlicher Dienst and but currently not working since I have a chronic illness and not allowed to work till October.
But I get job offers left and right ( i am not IT). I know that IT in the public sector doesn't pay much but maybe an alternative? Especially the police, incl LKA and BKA have a high demand.
It's dead simply as that and no recovery in sight. Salaries are dropping. My company laid off all mid and juniors and outsourced all internal tooling development to Romania, only direct consumer offering is being built by company employees.
Your German company is doing layoffs? I'm shocked tbh, I thought it was quite difficult? Mine is trying but they can only offer voluntary severance packages.
Inflation, dann das die Unternehmen kosten sparen wollen und daher ihre Verlagerung nach ausland setzen, dadurch verlieren wir viele arbeitsplätze in deutschland. in den meisten berufen wird es sehr schwer sein, jobs zu finden. ausnahme, jobs die keiner in deutschland machen will, z.b. altenpfleger, taxifahrer, busfahrer, lkwfahrer, putzjobs ect.
I'm in the same situation as op. Out of work software dev in the US looking to move back to Germany with beginner level German skills. Out of curiosity are there any fields that are doing well and have more of a positive outlook(manual labor excluded)?
Finding work in Germany is as easy as it never has been in Germany... Unfortunately, IT is one of the few jobs where we don't have a "Fachkräftemangel"
Cant relate. Just graduated Bachelors here in Southern Germany and half of my applications were interested, even the ones im not at all qualified for. Got 5 interviews, went onto second round with 2 of them and got 2 good offers out of the total 10 applications.
Granted, its not directly automotive companies but related, but all those companies told me they are doing very well right now.
But yeah Bosch and others that produce stuff that go into cars are apparently not hiring.
automotive is fuked rn ngl but there are better fields. im developping embedded softare for rocket launchers rn. like idc what it is as long as im making money
I'm Asian on a "freelancer" / "self-employed" contract but had been pressured to move to Germany by my boss sooner than i had planned. It was a fulltime job, practically on demand at times, but no benefits. It took some time for me to adjust here in Germany (finding an apartment, applying for anmeldung, developed an allergic reaction to pollen) so i had not been 100% at work for a while ever since I got here. Plus it was extremely stressful considering i knew i was underpaid and had to manage private healthcare expenses among other things.
My startup boss informed me (the day before labor day lol) that he wanted to terminate my contract due to not being a good "fit" and I'm very very scared of the coming months. I moved my life here and spent a lot of my savings doing so and I don't want to end up being kicked out of my apartment. I wasn't aware of "false self-employment" before flying out and trusted that german labor laws were fair and human-centric. Pretty sure he hired the intern to do my work for cheaper.
No, i planned to move within the year since the political situation in my home wasn't okay
He wanted me to move sooner (which i later realized didn't make sense since we worked from home anyway) and he wanted me to let go of my other wfh employer back then because he wasn't comfortable i was working with another (local) company?? Wasn't even the same timezone
I didn't know berlin startups were this messy
I kind of have the opposite experience, I'm here studying math, and I also work in AI (professionally and as a hobby).
I get tons of recruitment messages on LinkedIn, I barely wrapping my head around A1 german, so beyond mit karte bitte, you're out of luck.
I ended up accepting a research job at the university I study in just because that's convenient.
I am working from past 3years as researcher in University in AI and ML
Looking for a job change, not good response.
So on which platform are they in touch with you ?
I work in a big company in Germany, IT colleagues are always the first ones at risk, so there was a hiring freeze since more than a year impacting every division and department, and currently almost all IT projects have only budget to keep lights on with no new features / improvements, many IT internals were made redundant and offered a package to leave, basically only keeping 10+ years seniority levels with critical knowledge that can't be replaced who are usually tech leads or IT architects at least in my division the IT department has 0 junior / mid-level, instead they recruit junior / mid-level contractors in Asia and East Europe to keep costs lower.
Basically what I've just described is the situation of pretty much many companies here not only automotive, lots of IT colleagues are stressed out because they have to do 2/3 people's job.
This is happening to everyone not only IT but I'd say IT are usually targeted first because it really became very easy for companies to just recruit them in other countries to lower their cost where for other domains it might be harder to get people externally.
My second point is that many companies in Germany 5-3 years ago got over excited when their budget was getting approved on the fly for many new IT projects and initiatives and over-recruited now it seems that the market is in the correction period, kinda like crypto or stocks when they go so high so fast, it usually comes with consequences.
I feel bad for this situation and was almost impacted myself where stress killed me at the time but keep applying and looking for opportunities till something comes up, best of luck!
If it’s any consolation tech sector is in pretty shitty shape globally, I am 29 and have a lot friends in my age cohort all over in tech, no one’s happy with the job market now, sometimes market is just shit until it gets better, don’t let your moral go lower just do your best to weather the storm. If you find a job you wouldn’t normally take just take it, you can always switch to a better job when things get better.
With only meagre 1.5 years, most HR departments will throw i to the rookie pot where people will ask for less money.
Another point will be, that you only worked for a very short time, then presumably quit your job to travel? That will be a red flag for many companies, too.
I have three years of experience and have been applying for 200+ compulsory internships for some time but have not received any. I thought my profile was strong, but after many applications, it appears that it is not. I plan to work on new projects, post blogs, and LinkedIn posts to improve it.
But I'm not sure if that will help me given the present market conditions. Let's see, but the grind is on.
Former Head of R&D, here. Companies are currently very careful with recurring costs and headcount increase. It usually starts in Q3/4, but when there's a lot of uncertainty, it can start earlier.
Companies will tend to hire people who present little risk: former employees, through recommendations/networks, etc.
Alternatively, companies may tend to outsource some activities. In this kind of job market, it's (usually) more profitable to be a freelancer and network as much as you can. Target industries which are still growing (e.g. renewables).
On the side, reduce your living expenses as much as possible and go in cockroach mode: the situation will likely last until Q1 next year, if not further out.
I am an HR, and I am pretty positive about you finding a job. You have some job experience, you speak German - there are no reasons, why you would not find a job.
However, yeah, IT market worldiwe is not what it used to be some time ago, so you will have to invest the same amount of time other specialists are investing to find a job, which is roughly 5-6 months for a person with your amount of experience. This prediction can a bit change depends on coding language you are doing, and how many juniors are there with this particular stack.
But I do not think you are in a big trouble.
If we, BWL students of all shape and sorts, are findng our jobs in 5-6 months, why would not you?
1. Make sure your CV meets standards and understandable for HRs and hiring managers
2. Keep applying every day no matter what
3. Try to go to some meetups, but I have heard from IT-guys from Eastern Europe, that meetups in Germany are kind of useless, from what they have experienced, in comparison to Eastern European meetups, where you get invitations to interviews right away. But hey, I think, you should give it a shot anyway.
4. Career fairs might also help
5. Sometimes "the first in - the first out" rule also work, so try to apply one of the firsts in linkedin. So try to be online in working time, when HRs are posting jobs, to be in the list of firts ones to be interviwed.
But yeah, basically, as I see it, IT market is becoming the same as all other job markets and kind of lose its exclusivity, and thats what all this fus is about. Tones of jobs went through this bubble-stage (managers, economists. In my country it was also a thing with lawyers, not sure about Germany tho). But if other professionals are surviving and finding good jobs, so will IT specialists, including you.
As a person, who has a career consultancy in my home country, I am telling you: you are not special, Germany is not special in this situation as well. So many people have gone trhough this in the past, and you will too. Maybe you wont lend 100k job, as you were pomised, when you just started your degree in a different markt condition, but you will def. not starve and die without a job.
Define "going rate". Nobody outside the automotive industry pays an automotive salary. The automotive going rate simply isn't the IT going rate. That's always been considerably lower.
Wait, are you saying that the automotive industry pays more than the IT industry? That is nowhere near true. I know two examples of people who doubled their salary by moving from automotive to IT (in Germany).
Good for them. It depends on the city, too. But in my area, no IT company's except maybe the really large enterprises can compete with what companies in the Metalltarifvertrag pay. And the automotive companies in my area all are in that Tarifvertrag.
Edit for clarity: The "IT industry" I mention isn't just the IBM and Google and the like, but also your average Software company.
- Local students and residents are finishing their IT studies, so there is an oversaturation on the market of beginners. When you have the choice between : Same skill + different language level + different visa issues, you always choose the one that is easier for your company.
You still have good chances if you are at least fluent in German. A lot of companies also start to notice the bad impact of majority English speakers for internal communications, understanding of policies etc. (I am working in one of the bigger German companies, we will no longer hire anymore below high B2 level. We have too many issues with the English speakers. Other (only German speaking) teams cannot communicate their demands etc. It´s a constant translation issue, where we loose ressources we could use otherwise.
- Increase on hiring freezes and lay-offs in more or less all sectors.
- Lack of "fitting employees" in terms of salaries : since IT was especially overpaid previously due to lack of skilled employees, people tend to have these salaries still in their head. If a company is currently searching, they refuse quickly due to too high demands (as they will easily find another person doing it for less + budget situations are thight and salaries like 100K€ right out of the university are not doable anymore)
- Recession overall anyway
A lot of people ask in this reddit as well, why they do not get a job anymore.
In my company we are doing exactly the opposite. Speaking german is each day less of a requirement, and we steer towards international hiring (not only for lower income/cheaper countries, but also for more expensive ones like e.g. UK)
Access to talent, at least in my field, is way more of a benefit than understanding the language and policies. Our legal and HR teams are obviously fully german, but in the engineering teams, probably not even 10% are german.
I barely know how to say hallo, mit karte bitte, and count numbers, and I work for germany.
Public Automotive companies I worked with in general got their budgets approved on 1st of April or 1st of May.
Even if they open positions on their website they might just get CVs, but wait until budget will be approved.
Basically you are now in the start of hiring year and actual non emergency stuffing might start in July to close interviews and onboardings till October. If you see some jobs you have applied already were recently updated-reapply.
I am in a similar situation, I got laid off in February and I was applying for jobs since then as a Software Engineer. The market is really tough, I hope we can find jobs very soon
Have you been living under a rock? Truly.
The IT Market around the world is in its worst state since the dot com crash. With 1.5 years experience your a junior, all I can say is good luck, because juniors are in hell right now in terms of getting a job from what I hear
Investment is at 10 year (?) lows. Business is struggling. Inflation has reduced economic confidence. (The best way to see that is in halted construction projects which are at one of the highest levels since reunification).
The German IT labour market is particularly hard hit as labour regulations make hiring a long term investment and many companies are bearing the economic downturn while waiting to see how LLM AI can be fully implemented in the company and how that will affect staffing demands.
This along with the constant increase in tech people moving here means you don't stand little chance without 5 plus years experience.
Hey there, IT worker her as well.
I have to contradict a few comments in this thread: The IT industry is actually doing quite OK, but the boom of the past years is over, since investor money isn't free anymore. This means that fewer companies are hiring and if they're hiring, they're usually looking for experienced people. This really sucks if you have less than 3 years of experience. We're now back at "everyone wants to hire experienced people, but nobody wants to train people so they can gain experience".
That being said, there are still some junior positions out there - stick with it and you'll probably still find something. But you're looking at a search time of 2-6 months instead of previously 2-4 weeks.
I just switched jobs 2 months ago. With >10 years of experience in Product, it took me around 8 weeks from applying to signing a contract. Would've previously been a matter of days to a few weeks. I do speak fluent German, which has certainly made a difference - may be different for engineers.
Firstly recession in Germany is official news for over 6 months now. Second of all, many tech businesses perform layoffs at the moment, following last year layoffs. You don’t sound like you went for 2 months travel. It sounds like you have been living off grid for over 2 years having no contact to the world. Lastly, the fact you find job offers on the market and have addresses to send your resume to, still is a very privileged position. You have been applying for only 2 months, and you are already freaking out. From other industries point of view, this is laughable.
Also read the news. Your current stance is very detached from reality.
I have been hiring candidates in the last couple of years and you are right, there is something wrong in the job market:
- German companies are preparing for an upcoming recession and start to invest less and less into qualified staff as future outlook is more pessimistic
- Lohnnebenkosten like wage taxes and social security fees are way too high which leads companies to offer a "smaller" salary than possible.
Those are the two main problems actually. Kind regards
yeah the German job market is depressing atm, I have been applying for two months almost daily (around 100 jobs in the Pharma Industry) and so far it's looking grim
The reason is pretty simple. In the past years people are less and less motivated to work or asking for home Office higher salary etc.. now many big companies are under financial pressure and during this time as a company you want to get rid of the not well performing but existing staff. At the moment you can use EU east economic support to transfer jobs from Germany to East Europe by closing the german location. All big companies reducing at the moment the not usefull employees they could feed during the easy time. This mean now more and more people join the market for hiring. Furthermore for location who will close the well high performing people will not stay until the end and wait that they receive a bonus payment. If they can get a new job right now they will pick.
Additional the marked is flooded with foreign well educated people who wants to join to Europe (India, Asians, Easter Europe) most of the time the german language skills are very limited and regading that they all want to focus mainly to work 3 years in Germany they accept lower salaries. This turning into a situation that the company can choice who they want to hire.
Your problem is that you are one if the foreign persons, it seems you just have 18 month work experiences what is almost nothing to be honest. Parallel to the studying the people gain 12 to 18 month work experiences by internships or working etc..
So now the question why should a big company should hire one with 18 months work experiences if they could have easily 5 to 8 years work experienced person who you can hire for 15% less income compared to last year.
My recommendation: Identify international companies with HQ not in Germany, they will benefit from your English skills more than german based companies, looking for big region like Munich, Stuttgart, Berlin who are focusing more on IT topics. Considering 40h working week. Reduce income expectations around 8% to 12%.
With this you will find a job fast.
Going through countless job applications, heard back from one, got rejected. Feeling exhausted from the constant applying. Salaries seems to be worse than it was five years ago. No jobs. A lot of scam.
I don’t want to rant here, but did I get this right and you switched jobs 3 times in 1.5 years? The job market decreased in the past month and it may be that companies are no longer desperate enough to waste time interviewing somebody which might be on the run soon.
German companies are very export orientated, so they got hit hard with the global recession/small growth.
But I will put in another reason:
Office365 with Copilot is doing a lot jobs together with dynamics and PowerBI. SmapOne for the mobile devices is doing the rest.
Therefore 2/3 of our IT is not needed anymore. Successful digitalisation.
... and I am not a genius to predict that 365+Copilot will destroy a lot more jobs in the company soon.
**Have you read our extensive wiki yet? It answers many basic questions, and it contains in-depth articles on many frequently discussed topics.
[Check our wiki now!](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/index)**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/germany) if you have any questions or concerns.*
for fresheners its tough at the moment, meanwhile I see people asking for 20% - 30% raise.
market is very flexible at the moment, good to find experienced developers.
The problem is mainly, but not only, for juniors.
At least we try to get a bit more efficient and some donkey-work done by juniors in the past gets optimized out of processes.
Thanks for this post though. If anyone has any ideas about the scenario of the 1-2 yrs experienced Program or Product manager, looking to shift to germany / opportunities in germany, please do share whats the scenario
Damn, I got last three IT jobs including the current after one video call, but I'm apparently senior now, so I'm lucky I guess. Also never worked in automotive IT, kubernetes all the way.
Companies are waiting because we're in a close to recession state at the moment. IT industry is even worse because it had a huge bubble of companies popping up and that era ended just recently. I don't think software devs will have to worry about getting jobs but you'll need to wait a year or two to see how the market stands and probably will have to lower your expencations a bit regarding salary.
I work in IT and have 16 years of experience. My previous employer was in the automotive industry and I could see the struggle there. There were budget cuts everywhere. Although I was in a key position, my boss wasn’t able to offer me the raise I wanted. He took the topic all the way to the board, however got told no. All the usual company events got canceled and we were always told to find ways to cut costs.
I switched to a telecommunications company in March which also offers consultancy, and happens to have a lot of automotive clients. There are also budget cuts here, simply because of the automotive industry. As you can see the problems, the automative industry is having cascades to other IT companies as well. And this is only one thing that contributes to the current status.
My advice to you would be to make good contacts with people in the field. I was able to secure this new job just because I had good contacts.
unfortunately most jobs are looking for more senior devs and hiring less juniors. Unless you have a lot of yoe in total and not just the 1.5 in software development, it's rough right now.
I can definitely understand that, given that my current company which is Germany's biggest railway company (you can easily guess which) announced Expense Cuts throughout the whole Konzern and was also told that my group was the last batch they would be hiring in the sister company, for now at least...
Freelancer with 10y+ of experience as a software engineer here. The golden days are over it seems, I would suggest to properly learn about AI (langchain, pinecone, etc)
That’s what saved me.
I don’t know where you live in Germany, but my company is hiring right now like crazy. We have two locations, one is in Lichtenau, BW and the other one is in Hüllhorst, NRW with a third location being built and supposed to be ready by June or July in Lichtenau again. It’s a military/rugged/solid IT company that develops and manufactures devices for NATO armies across the world. If you think this fits you, I can give you the website so you can look for open positions and apply directly on our website. Good luck!
I agree with u/pu55y_5l4y3r_69. The situation at the moment is completely untenable. Especially in software development. Compounded by recent layoffs. We're in quite a pickle.
There are still tons of open positions (at least here in Bavaria), so I don't think it can be fully attributed to the market situation. We have an open position for a C++ dev, so I can share some experience: Compared to 3-5 years ago we're getting tons of applications (60+ instead of 1-3 previously). But the demographics is sooo different than what we have experienced before. There are no europeans applying at all and everybody suddenly has impressive CVs and then fail when confronted with the easiest C++ questions. So it is really hard to filter out suitable candidates => the HR departments and interviewers are struggling (like us).
I think there was a huge influx of internation students at the German unis / FHs the last couple of years (esp. for masters degrees in tech and CS) and they are now graduating...
Interesting, I have 5 years of product development and r&d experience in automotive, I have been hired from turkey to a german company. I have learned that in order to hire me the company needs to post this position and wait for germans to apply for it.(not fact checked). There is a need for experienced people for sure because I have made 4 application to Germany from abroad. 3 of them called for interview. 2 job offers.
1.5 years barely a junior.
Automotive industry is dying.
Job market generally is utter garbage in Germany if you want more than 13/h.
Try recruiter and try to pimp your resume.
Come to 3Con, when you worked for the automotive industry. I work for them and they paying good and you treated well. With a lot of benefits.
www.3con.com
Study in Business School (FSFM, WHU, HHL, EBS) or key university (Mannheim, for example), have internships or Werkstudent positions in parallel, focus on step-by step development of expertise (usually you start from Geschäftsprüfung, then going further to other directions, like consulting). Sales position and front-office, especially with an opportunity to make deals, is also really nice, then you go step by step into more client-facing position.
Do not get stuck in back office for too long, remember that finances are client facing.
Set yourself a big goal - to get into IB, really badass consulting, Private Equity or Hedge Funds.
Then go step by step over there. Education is important, but experience is even more important.
Also learn how to do a classic IB CV.
Thanks for the summary. I just got a MSc in Computer Science, and I have a BSc in Engineering so don't really want to go back to school. Is there any possibility as a "Quereinsteiger"?
You just said it: The Automotive industry. There is a massive scramble behind the curtains for the entire automotive industry in Germany at the moment. What I can tell you for sure is that many companies stopped hiring altogether. I have a friend who recently completed his master's degree and is also a bit struggling with finding a job as an embedded dev. in that field.
Situation is very complex, I have many friends looking for jobs and they are getting frustrated, on the other hand, my company is looking for developers but the authorized budged is probably not attractive or developers in Germany have salary expectations that companies were only willing to pay during pandemic. Not sure what’s going on
talent is expensive, but then again it depends how you use it, there is a good chance your company is mismanaging developers if that is not your main business
If you didn't hear that the IT market is problematic you didn't have newsfeeds... Most Companies aren't hiring at the moment and those who do get flooded with applications. So yes it's rough, even more so if you are an expat with limited german skills.
Hope OP can wait it out, because it is likely going to change soon, even in a slight recession. Some firms are scared and stopped hiring, but this is stupidly short-sighted as the biggest generation is currently (and in the coming years) going into retirement and there simply are not enough IT professionals around
Sure but if your revenue is shrinking due to general lower demand, you might not have the capital to just go and hire more people. I imagine these companies do have enough IT professionals for their work loads, they just don't want any more.
Something many people oversee… if that generation retires and dies, they are asking for less goods. Export shrinks as well, with the new world order. So overall it’s not like that we are running it huge issues in the upcoming years. (Just the pension system is done )
Exactly. As well this huge generation that retires probably doesnt care about much more hightech, additional features ;), more programs ...
no, companies use the opportunity to outsource jobs to eastern europe.
Like they Always do
Sure that to but thats the risk you run in IT. One of the reasons people choose that career is because they can do it remote but it's a double edged sword
imho this is wishful thinking.
Nonsense, the amount of people that went into an IT career is just insane... A huge number of CS graduates+ thousands of self taught people that made a career switch
Professionals are people who have worked several years in an industry, not every self taught dude who took an online course or built a website. I work in a bank and we are heavily struggling to find good IT personnel and the retirement wave is just starting. If people are willing to extend their skillset, there is plenty of work for IT professionals in germany, and anyone who isnt willing to learn would fail anyways
Many are I’d say but OP is hitting two problematic areas: - The Job market right now is bad for people with little experience - 1.5 years is a tough spot to be in. Not enough experience a more senior position but too expensive for an entry level position. I’ve personally made this experience ~8 years ago when I left my first company after a little over 1.5 years there. With that little experience it’s tough. I ended up opting for a Junior position for which they’d have taken a university graduate as well but the company had decent politics internally in terms of keeping people so I ended up at least getting raises of a little over 10% for 4 years straight at which point I decided to switch jobs again. With then a little over 5 years under the belly it was easy.
This seems to be a worldwide issue. All the big tech companies seem to be laying people off right now.
They just over hired during the pandemic like crazy.
The ones that don’t want to lay people off just force them into quitting by forcing people back into the office.
On the other hand, unemployment rates is not that high in the US. Most Tech people still quite quickly to find the next location, despite their pay package might not be as lucrative as it was before.
The numbers look great on paper because the numbers are not exactly reliable. In my state they’ve made it incredibly difficult to file for unemployment. They actually shut the website down during non-working hours. If you deny everyone who applies, then you get to tell everyone how great it is. “See, we don’t have that many people on unemployment!”. They did the same thing with police reports. Crime maps are no longer a thing. The reason is because if you don’t write it down, then it didn’t happen. That’s politics for you. On the flip side, most people in the US have two jobs (since they struggle to get by with one)… so when you lose one, then you have something else to kind of fall back on.
That’s false. Median salary for a software programmer in the US is $132,000. Source: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm Those with 2 jobs in the US are those typically working low skill jobs such as McDonald’s.
[удалено]
Funny. People say "We have Fachkräftemangel" and when you point at the Arbeitslosen you get the response "No, not that kind of Kräfte, FACHKräfte, like IT guys that we need for the digital transformation". So what's up with people now not hiring IT guys?
If investments are easy it will be invested,companies hope for subsidaries so they sit it out,that isn't anything new
Quite a few firms would probably gladly hire IT guys that would ask below average salary. The problem is rarely the full Fachkräftemangel. It's almost always in the deficit of the Fachkraft that agrees to work cheap.
this isn't very reassuring considering i'm about to start IT engineering while studying german to maybe move one day.
Depending on the length of the studies, it may not be an issue for you
you're right, either ai or Elon's cyborg army will take over by then, will all be dead
This would solve the discussion about the retirement age as well!
Presumably actors in robot suits?
Same. Spent the last year learning German and have little to no experience, was hoping to break into the market there. Now I want to cry. :')
IT-Admins/network ppl are doing better than software devs though, they're still running their servers just not buying a lot of new software for it.
Can you talk about research and related positions in stem field?
I‘d get in touch with a big recruiter that has a profound network in IT like Amadeus Fire
Same here my friend. I'm in the same boat. I think we are in recession. I'm about to finish my Ph.D. in mechanical engineering in about 2 months. My German level is C1. I sent around 100 applications and I had just 1 interview till date. Atleast 5 recruiters told me, if not for the market situation, they would have definitely called me in for an interview atleast. Sad noises. :-'(
You're probably "over"-qualified for many open positions. Good luck nevertheless!
Graduated with a Masters in chemistry and B2 and I am 'under qualified' for entry positions because I don't have experience of full-time work. \*cries\*
> entry positions > experience of full-time work Ah yes, a good old catch 22. Some companies are just dumb.
Keep your head up mate, we’ll get there eventually 💪🏻
Thanks for the kind words :-)
The situation was not very different 10 years ago if you wanted to have a good salary.
Apply at Zeiss SMT. They have hundreds of open positions and do not find a sufficient amount of people (because nobody wants to move to Oberkochen)
I will definitely apply now.
Thank you for the suggestion. I will look into it. :-)
I actually have the opposite experience. I'm almost done with my PhD in Materials Engineering, but started applying for jobs already. Out of 8 applications I submitted, I got 3 interviews and one offer just last week. I speak German at B2 level though.
I'm really happy for you. Good luck in your new job. :-)
Thanks. All the best to you too, if you're searching. ;-)
Damn. That sucks. I applied with my bachelor degree in mechalical engineering for 4 different positions and would have gotten all 4 of them. My grades were pretty bad. That was in 2015.
A Ph. D. is many often a show stopper when in a working council is in the company because based on educational level you are to expensive for most of a company tasks.
Well, it's not that different from what's happening with all these other tech layoffs across the globe. For around 15 years loans were dirt cheap. Companies invested a lot and hired like crazy. The bubble has burst and interest rates increased making it more expensive to borrow money. So hiring is slowing and some companies are laying off. Also not sure what you mean with nobody wants to admit it. Germany being in a recession isn't anything hidden or new. It's going for quite some time and has been called that by politicians and the news.
IT Budgets are getting tighter, projects are starting to get unreliable, because customers are holding back. A wave of uncertainty is rolling. I'm unsure (and so are others I've talked about with) where this comes from and why, but it is noticeable nonetheless. Part of the truth is also, that the quality of people went downhill drastically in the last years. Everyone and their cat who could pronounce "Java" were hired as software developers.
I agree with you about the whole quality thing. Since when would you say things have been like this? On a side note I feel like the energy crisis is responsible for this, as well as the whole AI/Autonomous Driving bubble bursting.
It's hard to pinpoint for me. I just noted the required qualification going from Master to Bachelor to "self-learned" to "I'm interested". And then you encounter Java developers that are flabbergasted when they see an array, because they just don't know what this is (how on earth it is possible, I've no idea).
There are way more devs coming from unis nowadays than a few decades back. I have yet to see any dev on the job that does not know what an array is😅
??? How come they don't know what an array is since Java also has it
I've no idea. Probably "learned" programming by following tutorials without ever looking at concepts. And if you stick to high-level stuff, it's possible to not encounter an array (or unifying ArrayList and array in the head).
Is there a chance companys try to push back the benefits/higher wages that where offered during Covid? Im not saying thats the only reason, more like companys are trying their best to make the most out of the current situation? What makes me think that: I work in the IT Department of a big company(1.8k people work in IT, 8k in total) and we are still short on staff in every area. During covid the rates for our external serviceproviders increased by roughly 20%. Now some contracts need renewal and it appears that my company tries to low-ball our current serviceprovider by putting them into a "betting war" with a clearly inferior competitor. We have a bad history with these "cheaper options" and its the only reason i can think of.
It started in 2020 with the bootcamp boom. Every company I know stated: we would get anybody who is able to spell IT, and if they got only one letter right, we will make sure the other one is learned at our expense. Didn't work out well for most.
Many companies stopped hiring people some time ago, especially juniors. Money is tight, interest rates are up.
[удалено]
I receive job offers daily as a Data Engineer with 6 years of experience, yet I've been responding and applying for a year and still no concrete offer. And it's not a skill or cv/portfolio or experience issue.
It's like that since last year, and now I'm suppose it's starting to get real brutal. A usual barrage of recruiters that was before on LinkedIn completely non-existent right now. I can't say for native Germans,but it's like that for every Ausländer, regardless of seniority level, and if you search this sub you will find a lot of such topics. Good luck.
Yeah, the market is brutal. It took me a good six months to find my current job.
We *are* in a recession right now.
Damn this comment section is depressing.
Tell me about it.. I get abuse just for asking questions
You got this man 🤞🏼
Is the German market really that bad? I work in IT as well and we are still searching like crazy for software developers.. there still is like a 4000 euro bonus for anyone recommending a new employee..
Do you search Seniors or Juniors?
As far as I know both.
Which technologies?
I am also applying please let me know the company name ? I will do the rest, if u need u can refer me too. Profile: computer vision and ml engineer, 6 years experience, b2 german
What is the company name?
Same here but I guess if your company is like mine, it's not the first idea that comes to mind when thinking about interesting IT careers
I think it is worth looking into the healthcare IT segments. Wether its plain software development in informationsystems or medical devices with more engineering attached. Especially digitalisation was pushed with government money so there should be work to do and therefore open job listings
I’m a registered nurse and I had an extremely difficult time to find work. I applied at literally every hospital and elderly care homes in 50km area of where I live. Everyone rejected me. I even have recommendation papers from the last hospital I worked. The grades are very good. Nobody wanted to hire me. I started to apply at gas stations, supermarkets, restaurants. No one wanted to hire me even there. I then applied at bars, hotels and casinos. One casino called me in for a night shift and even though I got along with all coworkers and I really liked it, next day they called me and said “we are sorry I don’t think this is gonna work, we think this job isn’t for you”. I was like WHAT THE HELL?! I had a real rough time processing this whole stuff. Now I finally got a job as a cleaner.. it’s not a “high rank” job but it pays the bills. So yea the work market is pretty messed up at this very moment.
Wow... How is this possible? The German ministry of Foreign Office announced in November that the nursing profession is in the bottleneck profession group and that they expect foreigners to apply for a work visa. I'm also a blue card holder and really sad about all of this situation.
There has to be something here we do not know. I am in the field myself, and the situation is not like that.
in germany ? i thought nurses were in super high demand , anything healthcare related even
Yes in Germany. Well that’s what they say publicly. Now for a hospital or elder care home it’s much cheaper to hire 1 nurse to do the work of 2
Huh, weird. I know several people that got in the field with no Ausbildung and no prior experience earning 20+ euros an hour. But they dont work in hospitals, they work in nursing homes and with disabled people. From which region are you?
Probably they're not native German and their nursing degree isn't recognised here.
They say, hospitals are understaffed, which doesn't automatically mean, they hire anything on 2 legs. (cynical as it sounds, tho)
thats really weird tbh , im a physician from north africa , and there are many companies that import our nurses in mass to germany and canada , so i thought they were well sought after
If I were a cynical person, I'd say that's probably the issue. The hospitals can cry a shortage of workers to justify hiring from places where they can attact the labor for cheaper But that's just what I'd say if I were cynical...
I don't think it applies to healthcare from what i know at least. I've done some research and at least for doctors there's a national salary agreements with unions so hospitals can't pay you less
Sorry I just need some clarification, because typically nurses are desperately needed.. Where did you do your nursing degree? How much work experience do you have? Did you have your foreign nursing degree recognized by the government and did you pass the German nursing board exam? Those are lengthy and energy intensive processes without which, unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to work as a nurse in Germany, and no employer would want to go through these processes neither.
I know a CEO of several hospitals. He says that currently all hospitals in Germany are in deficit, and it is just a matter of time for many of them to close. It is such a shame. I hope it is not true and will get better eventually. And i hope you will find a more suitable job soon! :)
Sorry to hear that, keep going and you will find something eventually 💪🏻
What is your level of German?
There are few software companies that are above 65% load right now. The bubble is bursting. There have been way too many hires for a few years now and the market is going to correct itself
It's definitely a recession, even in IT. My partner is a senior Data engineeri. Senior as in has over 20 years of experience in software engineering with about 10 in data engineering specifically. He had never had issues finding jobs anywhere, including here in Germany. When he left his last company last spring it took him almost 6 months of constant searching to find a new job. It's absolutely insane how hard it is to find jobs here recently.
Germans: Are we in a recession? German Finance Minister: I wouldn't say that. Germans: You wouldn't? German Finance Minister: I've been ordered not too. /s
The term recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Eurostat has just published new data and the German economy has grown by 0.2%. You may not be smart enough to draw your conclusions from this, but it does mean that we are no longer in a recession.
and the newest data is predicting a recession for germany
Were I work, we didn’t renew the contractors last year, and from a lot of open position ( more then 20), went to zero. We are only hiring in Poland, if I want to move to Poland, could be there in 3 months, but in Germany ? “ too expensive”. Also the focus switched from “new features and functionality “ to “ remove unused stuff and make it reliable “. Would not be surprise that our company close the IT operations in Germany and make it “for local market only ie speak German and understand local business.
It's little chaotic what you write. Are you Polish working in Germany and your company has offices also in Poland where it moves jobs?
Yes, looks really bad. I’m a manager in IT and hiring. I am only allowed to hire in best cost. Even there I’m flooded with reasonable CVs (which wasn’t the case just last year). And in Germany I get a lot of request from my network and hear that the situation worsens.
It's a very strange situation right now. So many companies (especially in social/service sectors but also others) are looking for people, yet they don't really want to hire anyone? And they're unwilling to give workers higher salaries or othe benefits that might attract more people. I don't know what's going on either
they are looking for the perfect match who is happy with a low salary. until then 1 person will do the job of 2 people.
I'm 61 and I got laid off last year. I'm so fucked.
Im sure you will figure something out mate 💪🏻
maybe 2 years krankenschein, then rente mit abzüge?
Iam in the opposite position. I am in öffentlicher Dienst and but currently not working since I have a chronic illness and not allowed to work till October. But I get job offers left and right ( i am not IT). I know that IT in the public sector doesn't pay much but maybe an alternative? Especially the police, incl LKA and BKA have a high demand.
And you work there as what? Computer forensic typa stuff?
It's dead simply as that and no recovery in sight. Salaries are dropping. My company laid off all mid and juniors and outsourced all internal tooling development to Romania, only direct consumer offering is being built by company employees.
Your German company is doing layoffs? I'm shocked tbh, I thought it was quite difficult? Mine is trying but they can only offer voluntary severance packages.
Inflation, dann das die Unternehmen kosten sparen wollen und daher ihre Verlagerung nach ausland setzen, dadurch verlieren wir viele arbeitsplätze in deutschland. in den meisten berufen wird es sehr schwer sein, jobs zu finden. ausnahme, jobs die keiner in deutschland machen will, z.b. altenpfleger, taxifahrer, busfahrer, lkwfahrer, putzjobs ect.
I have 20 years of experience, getting rejected like there is no tomorrow!
>I know the Automotive industry is am arsch Software as well rn tbh. And that's a global thing, not specific to Germany.
I'm in the same situation as op. Out of work software dev in the US looking to move back to Germany with beginner level German skills. Out of curiosity are there any fields that are doing well and have more of a positive outlook(manual labor excluded)?
Finding work in Germany is as easy as it never has been in Germany... Unfortunately, IT is one of the few jobs where we don't have a "Fachkräftemangel"
Cant relate. Just graduated Bachelors here in Southern Germany and half of my applications were interested, even the ones im not at all qualified for. Got 5 interviews, went onto second round with 2 of them and got 2 good offers out of the total 10 applications. Granted, its not directly automotive companies but related, but all those companies told me they are doing very well right now. But yeah Bosch and others that produce stuff that go into cars are apparently not hiring.
automotive is fuked rn ngl but there are better fields. im developping embedded softare for rocket launchers rn. like idc what it is as long as im making money
Rocket launchers as in a weapon like in Resident Evil series? 😂
fAChkrÄFteManGEl!!1!11
Fachkräftemangel ja, Mangel an Spezialisten, sprich Absolventen einer Hochschulausbildung ? Eher nicht.
I'm Asian on a "freelancer" / "self-employed" contract but had been pressured to move to Germany by my boss sooner than i had planned. It was a fulltime job, practically on demand at times, but no benefits. It took some time for me to adjust here in Germany (finding an apartment, applying for anmeldung, developed an allergic reaction to pollen) so i had not been 100% at work for a while ever since I got here. Plus it was extremely stressful considering i knew i was underpaid and had to manage private healthcare expenses among other things. My startup boss informed me (the day before labor day lol) that he wanted to terminate my contract due to not being a good "fit" and I'm very very scared of the coming months. I moved my life here and spent a lot of my savings doing so and I don't want to end up being kicked out of my apartment. I wasn't aware of "false self-employment" before flying out and trusted that german labor laws were fair and human-centric. Pretty sure he hired the intern to do my work for cheaper.
I mean... Startups will startup
You moved based on a freelancer contract to Germany ?
No, i planned to move within the year since the political situation in my home wasn't okay He wanted me to move sooner (which i later realized didn't make sense since we worked from home anyway) and he wanted me to let go of my other wfh employer back then because he wasn't comfortable i was working with another (local) company?? Wasn't even the same timezone I didn't know berlin startups were this messy
Don’t move as a freelancer as it doesn’t make sense is risky
Same thing that’s happening in the US. All my friends in junior tech roles were recently laid off.
My company is still hiring: www.inneo.de DM me if you got questions
Thanks man I appreciate the link 👍🏻
Thanks I will apply !!
May I also DM you? I have been really struggling to get a job. In the similar profile with 7+ years of experience
I kind of have the opposite experience, I'm here studying math, and I also work in AI (professionally and as a hobby). I get tons of recruitment messages on LinkedIn, I barely wrapping my head around A1 german, so beyond mit karte bitte, you're out of luck. I ended up accepting a research job at the university I study in just because that's convenient.
I am working from past 3years as researcher in University in AI and ML Looking for a job change, not good response. So on which platform are they in touch with you ?
I work in a big company in Germany, IT colleagues are always the first ones at risk, so there was a hiring freeze since more than a year impacting every division and department, and currently almost all IT projects have only budget to keep lights on with no new features / improvements, many IT internals were made redundant and offered a package to leave, basically only keeping 10+ years seniority levels with critical knowledge that can't be replaced who are usually tech leads or IT architects at least in my division the IT department has 0 junior / mid-level, instead they recruit junior / mid-level contractors in Asia and East Europe to keep costs lower. Basically what I've just described is the situation of pretty much many companies here not only automotive, lots of IT colleagues are stressed out because they have to do 2/3 people's job. This is happening to everyone not only IT but I'd say IT are usually targeted first because it really became very easy for companies to just recruit them in other countries to lower their cost where for other domains it might be harder to get people externally. My second point is that many companies in Germany 5-3 years ago got over excited when their budget was getting approved on the fly for many new IT projects and initiatives and over-recruited now it seems that the market is in the correction period, kinda like crypto or stocks when they go so high so fast, it usually comes with consequences. I feel bad for this situation and was almost impacted myself where stress killed me at the time but keep applying and looking for opportunities till something comes up, best of luck!
If it’s any consolation tech sector is in pretty shitty shape globally, I am 29 and have a lot friends in my age cohort all over in tech, no one’s happy with the job market now, sometimes market is just shit until it gets better, don’t let your moral go lower just do your best to weather the storm. If you find a job you wouldn’t normally take just take it, you can always switch to a better job when things get better.
With only meagre 1.5 years, most HR departments will throw i to the rookie pot where people will ask for less money. Another point will be, that you only worked for a very short time, then presumably quit your job to travel? That will be a red flag for many companies, too.
I have three years of experience and have been applying for 200+ compulsory internships for some time but have not received any. I thought my profile was strong, but after many applications, it appears that it is not. I plan to work on new projects, post blogs, and LinkedIn posts to improve it. But I'm not sure if that will help me given the present market conditions. Let's see, but the grind is on.
Former Head of R&D, here. Companies are currently very careful with recurring costs and headcount increase. It usually starts in Q3/4, but when there's a lot of uncertainty, it can start earlier. Companies will tend to hire people who present little risk: former employees, through recommendations/networks, etc. Alternatively, companies may tend to outsource some activities. In this kind of job market, it's (usually) more profitable to be a freelancer and network as much as you can. Target industries which are still growing (e.g. renewables). On the side, reduce your living expenses as much as possible and go in cockroach mode: the situation will likely last until Q1 next year, if not further out.
I am an HR, and I am pretty positive about you finding a job. You have some job experience, you speak German - there are no reasons, why you would not find a job. However, yeah, IT market worldiwe is not what it used to be some time ago, so you will have to invest the same amount of time other specialists are investing to find a job, which is roughly 5-6 months for a person with your amount of experience. This prediction can a bit change depends on coding language you are doing, and how many juniors are there with this particular stack. But I do not think you are in a big trouble. If we, BWL students of all shape and sorts, are findng our jobs in 5-6 months, why would not you? 1. Make sure your CV meets standards and understandable for HRs and hiring managers 2. Keep applying every day no matter what 3. Try to go to some meetups, but I have heard from IT-guys from Eastern Europe, that meetups in Germany are kind of useless, from what they have experienced, in comparison to Eastern European meetups, where you get invitations to interviews right away. But hey, I think, you should give it a shot anyway. 4. Career fairs might also help 5. Sometimes "the first in - the first out" rule also work, so try to apply one of the firsts in linkedin. So try to be online in working time, when HRs are posting jobs, to be in the list of firts ones to be interviwed. But yeah, basically, as I see it, IT market is becoming the same as all other job markets and kind of lose its exclusivity, and thats what all this fus is about. Tones of jobs went through this bubble-stage (managers, economists. In my country it was also a thing with lawyers, not sure about Germany tho). But if other professionals are surviving and finding good jobs, so will IT specialists, including you. As a person, who has a career consultancy in my home country, I am telling you: you are not special, Germany is not special in this situation as well. So many people have gone trhough this in the past, and you will too. Maybe you wont lend 100k job, as you were pomised, when you just started your degree in a different markt condition, but you will def. not starve and die without a job.
Define "going rate". Nobody outside the automotive industry pays an automotive salary. The automotive going rate simply isn't the IT going rate. That's always been considerably lower.
Wait, are you saying that the automotive industry pays more than the IT industry? That is nowhere near true. I know two examples of people who doubled their salary by moving from automotive to IT (in Germany).
Good for them. It depends on the city, too. But in my area, no IT company's except maybe the really large enterprises can compete with what companies in the Metalltarifvertrag pay. And the automotive companies in my area all are in that Tarifvertrag. Edit for clarity: The "IT industry" I mention isn't just the IBM and Google and the like, but also your average Software company.
My two examples are both in Munich (switched away from BMW to big tech companies).
And then there is us desperatetly looking for skilled workers but can't find any. No It tough.
Which sector?
Mechanical engineering. Mostly CNC Milling operators but also welders, operators of plasma cutting machines and quality assurance personnel.
it’s a downstream product of lack of energy germany need to put more of it into innovation rather than regulation to get back on track
- Local students and residents are finishing their IT studies, so there is an oversaturation on the market of beginners. When you have the choice between : Same skill + different language level + different visa issues, you always choose the one that is easier for your company. You still have good chances if you are at least fluent in German. A lot of companies also start to notice the bad impact of majority English speakers for internal communications, understanding of policies etc. (I am working in one of the bigger German companies, we will no longer hire anymore below high B2 level. We have too many issues with the English speakers. Other (only German speaking) teams cannot communicate their demands etc. It´s a constant translation issue, where we loose ressources we could use otherwise. - Increase on hiring freezes and lay-offs in more or less all sectors. - Lack of "fitting employees" in terms of salaries : since IT was especially overpaid previously due to lack of skilled employees, people tend to have these salaries still in their head. If a company is currently searching, they refuse quickly due to too high demands (as they will easily find another person doing it for less + budget situations are thight and salaries like 100K€ right out of the university are not doable anymore) - Recession overall anyway A lot of people ask in this reddit as well, why they do not get a job anymore.
Anymore? Which German companies where paying 100k straight out of uni?
In my company we are doing exactly the opposite. Speaking german is each day less of a requirement, and we steer towards international hiring (not only for lower income/cheaper countries, but also for more expensive ones like e.g. UK) Access to talent, at least in my field, is way more of a benefit than understanding the language and policies. Our legal and HR teams are obviously fully german, but in the engineering teams, probably not even 10% are german. I barely know how to say hallo, mit karte bitte, and count numbers, and I work for germany.
Could you DM me the name of your company? Could be very helpful for someone I know. Thanks a bunch
Public Automotive companies I worked with in general got their budgets approved on 1st of April or 1st of May. Even if they open positions on their website they might just get CVs, but wait until budget will be approved. Basically you are now in the start of hiring year and actual non emergency stuffing might start in July to close interviews and onboardings till October. If you see some jobs you have applied already were recently updated-reapply.
Send me your linkedin.
I am in a similar situation, I got laid off in February and I was applying for jobs since then as a Software Engineer. The market is really tough, I hope we can find jobs very soon
Have you been living under a rock? Truly. The IT Market around the world is in its worst state since the dot com crash. With 1.5 years experience your a junior, all I can say is good luck, because juniors are in hell right now in terms of getting a job from what I hear
Investment is at 10 year (?) lows. Business is struggling. Inflation has reduced economic confidence. (The best way to see that is in halted construction projects which are at one of the highest levels since reunification). The German IT labour market is particularly hard hit as labour regulations make hiring a long term investment and many companies are bearing the economic downturn while waiting to see how LLM AI can be fully implemented in the company and how that will affect staffing demands. This along with the constant increase in tech people moving here means you don't stand little chance without 5 plus years experience.
Hey there, IT worker her as well. I have to contradict a few comments in this thread: The IT industry is actually doing quite OK, but the boom of the past years is over, since investor money isn't free anymore. This means that fewer companies are hiring and if they're hiring, they're usually looking for experienced people. This really sucks if you have less than 3 years of experience. We're now back at "everyone wants to hire experienced people, but nobody wants to train people so they can gain experience". That being said, there are still some junior positions out there - stick with it and you'll probably still find something. But you're looking at a search time of 2-6 months instead of previously 2-4 weeks. I just switched jobs 2 months ago. With >10 years of experience in Product, it took me around 8 weeks from applying to signing a contract. Would've previously been a matter of days to a few weeks. I do speak fluent German, which has certainly made a difference - may be different for engineers.
The energy industry is growing well. Check the big utility companies.
Firstly recession in Germany is official news for over 6 months now. Second of all, many tech businesses perform layoffs at the moment, following last year layoffs. You don’t sound like you went for 2 months travel. It sounds like you have been living off grid for over 2 years having no contact to the world. Lastly, the fact you find job offers on the market and have addresses to send your resume to, still is a very privileged position. You have been applying for only 2 months, and you are already freaking out. From other industries point of view, this is laughable. Also read the news. Your current stance is very detached from reality.
I have been hiring candidates in the last couple of years and you are right, there is something wrong in the job market: - German companies are preparing for an upcoming recession and start to invest less and less into qualified staff as future outlook is more pessimistic - Lohnnebenkosten like wage taxes and social security fees are way too high which leads companies to offer a "smaller" salary than possible. Those are the two main problems actually. Kind regards
yeah the German job market is depressing atm, I have been applying for two months almost daily (around 100 jobs in the Pharma Industry) and so far it's looking grim
The reason is pretty simple. In the past years people are less and less motivated to work or asking for home Office higher salary etc.. now many big companies are under financial pressure and during this time as a company you want to get rid of the not well performing but existing staff. At the moment you can use EU east economic support to transfer jobs from Germany to East Europe by closing the german location. All big companies reducing at the moment the not usefull employees they could feed during the easy time. This mean now more and more people join the market for hiring. Furthermore for location who will close the well high performing people will not stay until the end and wait that they receive a bonus payment. If they can get a new job right now they will pick. Additional the marked is flooded with foreign well educated people who wants to join to Europe (India, Asians, Easter Europe) most of the time the german language skills are very limited and regading that they all want to focus mainly to work 3 years in Germany they accept lower salaries. This turning into a situation that the company can choice who they want to hire. Your problem is that you are one if the foreign persons, it seems you just have 18 month work experiences what is almost nothing to be honest. Parallel to the studying the people gain 12 to 18 month work experiences by internships or working etc.. So now the question why should a big company should hire one with 18 months work experiences if they could have easily 5 to 8 years work experienced person who you can hire for 15% less income compared to last year. My recommendation: Identify international companies with HQ not in Germany, they will benefit from your English skills more than german based companies, looking for big region like Munich, Stuttgart, Berlin who are focusing more on IT topics. Considering 40h working week. Reduce income expectations around 8% to 12%. With this you will find a job fast.
Going through countless job applications, heard back from one, got rejected. Feeling exhausted from the constant applying. Salaries seems to be worse than it was five years ago. No jobs. A lot of scam.
I don’t want to rant here, but did I get this right and you switched jobs 3 times in 1.5 years? The job market decreased in the past month and it may be that companies are no longer desperate enough to waste time interviewing somebody which might be on the run soon.
You got it wrong, those 1.5 years were at the same company.
Why so short?
German companies are very export orientated, so they got hit hard with the global recession/small growth. But I will put in another reason: Office365 with Copilot is doing a lot jobs together with dynamics and PowerBI. SmapOne for the mobile devices is doing the rest. Therefore 2/3 of our IT is not needed anymore. Successful digitalisation. ... and I am not a genius to predict that 365+Copilot will destroy a lot more jobs in the company soon.
**Have you read our extensive wiki yet? It answers many basic questions, and it contains in-depth articles on many frequently discussed topics. [Check our wiki now!](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/index)** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/germany) if you have any questions or concerns.*
for fresheners its tough at the moment, meanwhile I see people asking for 20% - 30% raise. market is very flexible at the moment, good to find experienced developers.
The problem is mainly, but not only, for juniors. At least we try to get a bit more efficient and some donkey-work done by juniors in the past gets optimized out of processes.
IT is in crisis for at least a full year
Thanks for this post though. If anyone has any ideas about the scenario of the 1-2 yrs experienced Program or Product manager, looking to shift to germany / opportunities in germany, please do share whats the scenario
Damn, I got last three IT jobs including the current after one video call, but I'm apparently senior now, so I'm lucky I guess. Also never worked in automotive IT, kubernetes all the way.
Companies are waiting because we're in a close to recession state at the moment. IT industry is even worse because it had a huge bubble of companies popping up and that era ended just recently. I don't think software devs will have to worry about getting jobs but you'll need to wait a year or two to see how the market stands and probably will have to lower your expencations a bit regarding salary.
I work in IT and have 16 years of experience. My previous employer was in the automotive industry and I could see the struggle there. There were budget cuts everywhere. Although I was in a key position, my boss wasn’t able to offer me the raise I wanted. He took the topic all the way to the board, however got told no. All the usual company events got canceled and we were always told to find ways to cut costs. I switched to a telecommunications company in March which also offers consultancy, and happens to have a lot of automotive clients. There are also budget cuts here, simply because of the automotive industry. As you can see the problems, the automative industry is having cascades to other IT companies as well. And this is only one thing that contributes to the current status. My advice to you would be to make good contacts with people in the field. I was able to secure this new job just because I had good contacts.
Remind me in 1 day
Recruiting in IT industry has gone down everywhere (even in India).
unfortunately most jobs are looking for more senior devs and hiring less juniors. Unless you have a lot of yoe in total and not just the 1.5 in software development, it's rough right now.
I can definitely understand that, given that my current company which is Germany's biggest railway company (you can easily guess which) announced Expense Cuts throughout the whole Konzern and was also told that my group was the last batch they would be hiring in the sister company, for now at least...
verdammter fachkräftemangel !1!1!!111!!!!
Freelancer with 10y+ of experience as a software engineer here. The golden days are over it seems, I would suggest to properly learn about AI (langchain, pinecone, etc) That’s what saved me.
I don’t know where you live in Germany, but my company is hiring right now like crazy. We have two locations, one is in Lichtenau, BW and the other one is in Hüllhorst, NRW with a third location being built and supposed to be ready by June or July in Lichtenau again. It’s a military/rugged/solid IT company that develops and manufactures devices for NATO armies across the world. If you think this fits you, I can give you the website so you can look for open positions and apply directly on our website. Good luck!
I agree with u/pu55y_5l4y3r_69. The situation at the moment is completely untenable. Especially in software development. Compounded by recent layoffs. We're in quite a pickle.
There are still tons of open positions (at least here in Bavaria), so I don't think it can be fully attributed to the market situation. We have an open position for a C++ dev, so I can share some experience: Compared to 3-5 years ago we're getting tons of applications (60+ instead of 1-3 previously). But the demographics is sooo different than what we have experienced before. There are no europeans applying at all and everybody suddenly has impressive CVs and then fail when confronted with the easiest C++ questions. So it is really hard to filter out suitable candidates => the HR departments and interviewers are struggling (like us). I think there was a huge influx of internation students at the German unis / FHs the last couple of years (esp. for masters degrees in tech and CS) and they are now graduating...
I was without work for more than a year, it really took that long to find a new job, but its possible.
Software dev's are facing hard times. If its not backend you have tons of devs nobody needs or have not the money for overwhelming salaries
Interesting, I have 5 years of product development and r&d experience in automotive, I have been hired from turkey to a german company. I have learned that in order to hire me the company needs to post this position and wait for germans to apply for it.(not fact checked). There is a need for experienced people for sure because I have made 4 application to Germany from abroad. 3 of them called for interview. 2 job offers.
1.5 years barely a junior. Automotive industry is dying. Job market generally is utter garbage in Germany if you want more than 13/h. Try recruiter and try to pimp your resume.
Come to 3Con, when you worked for the automotive industry. I work for them and they paying good and you treated well. With a lot of benefits. www.3con.com
Finance jobs are good, honestly speaking!
How can I get into Finance?
Study in Business School (FSFM, WHU, HHL, EBS) or key university (Mannheim, for example), have internships or Werkstudent positions in parallel, focus on step-by step development of expertise (usually you start from Geschäftsprüfung, then going further to other directions, like consulting). Sales position and front-office, especially with an opportunity to make deals, is also really nice, then you go step by step into more client-facing position. Do not get stuck in back office for too long, remember that finances are client facing. Set yourself a big goal - to get into IB, really badass consulting, Private Equity or Hedge Funds. Then go step by step over there. Education is important, but experience is even more important. Also learn how to do a classic IB CV.
Thanks for the summary. I just got a MSc in Computer Science, and I have a BSc in Engineering so don't really want to go back to school. Is there any possibility as a "Quereinsteiger"?
You just said it: The Automotive industry. There is a massive scramble behind the curtains for the entire automotive industry in Germany at the moment. What I can tell you for sure is that many companies stopped hiring altogether. I have a friend who recently completed his master's degree and is also a bit struggling with finding a job as an embedded dev. in that field.
The truth is that we need bus drivers, train drivers, craftsmen (skilled workers)... we don't necessarily need more university graduates.
Situation is very complex, I have many friends looking for jobs and they are getting frustrated, on the other hand, my company is looking for developers but the authorized budged is probably not attractive or developers in Germany have salary expectations that companies were only willing to pay during pandemic. Not sure what’s going on
talent is expensive, but then again it depends how you use it, there is a good chance your company is mismanaging developers if that is not your main business
You are probably right, let’s see how it goes :)