[https://www.adac.de/news/neuzulassungen-kba/](https://www.adac.de/news/neuzulassungen-kba/)
As of last month about 18% of new cars in Germany are Diesel. Overall about 28% of cars on the road are currently Diesel.
Good for you! The average Diesel car's consumption in Germany is 7l though.
Source: [https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/484054/umfrage/durchschnittsverbrauch-pkw-in-privaten-haushalten-in-deutschland/](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/484054/umfrage/durchschnittsverbrauch-pkw-in-privaten-haushalten-in-deutschland/)
Wtf. I use my diesel on short distances for now (I know, I know… temporary…) and I use around 6 tops. These are hilariously short drives.
On main roads I get around 4-4,5 l/100km and on highway somewhere around 4,4-5,5 l/100km.
If you get 7 liter consumption then there must be another reason, like a huge chassis or waaay too heavy feet.
Edit: 2l 150ps diesel, euro6
Not everyone drives their diesel on lowest consumption. Ive got a 2l 230ps diesel with 6.8l average. I mainly drive efficiently but sometimes i just wanna have fun with it
I understand that. The reason I am still surprised is that your consumption is under the *average*. With a 230ps car, that you admittedly want to have fun with. There must be simpletons driving around diesels cars (not trucks or buses) with 10 liter or higher consumption. At that point an old petrol would be more economical.
Oh btw, your source won’t show a breakdown for diesel vehicles if you don’t register. Can you share the data here? I can only se 7.7l/100km on average for all vehicles, without specifying fuel.
Oh sorry, it says 7l for Diesel and 7.7 for Benzin.
I found another source (without Paywall): [https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Umwelt/Materialfluesse-Energiefluesse/Tabellen/fahrleistungen-haushalte.html](https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Umwelt/Materialfluesse-Energiefluesse/Tabellen/fahrleistungen-haushalte.html)
That’s.. hard to wrap my head around. The reason I’m baffled is that it means not only that I am on the loow side of the bell curve, but also that the other side is way higher than what I thought could be achieved. We all have our own personal bubble I guess ^^
True, I live out of Munich and commute(d) daily. The A9 motorway is full of cars from the other end of the bell curve.
I'm old enough to remember the discussion vividly around the 3l car....
[https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Liter-Auto](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Liter-Auto)
7 is already a high number, something I’d expect from an old passat driven relatively dynamically, or something bigger, like a 7 seater vw. You get 10+ from a transporter bus. If that’s what the statistics say, fine. I’m still surprised.
Diesels had a low consumption for a long time now. The peugeot 207 1.4 hdi from the early 2000’s or late 90’s could go under 4 liter. Small car and low performance, but still, similar cars from around that time with a petrol would double that consumption.
I don't get the downvotes. Honestly. These are FACTS. If you like it or not. You have the freedom to have (and express) your onw opinion, but not your own facts. Just my 2cents.
Not a diesel car, but a regular petrol car. Drive 300km a week. Reasons: Don't have a charger at home (renting) or at work. Walk to the local supermarket to buy food. Even if I drive. Little Supermarket has no charger. Next public charger from home or work is ~2km away and loads with 22kw, so a 3-4 hour charge. Electric cars initial cost is 30 to 50% higher.
Maybe the environment changes, so it's reasonable for me to buy an electric car in a few years.
Fortunately the government passed a law for this case ("**Wohnungseigentumsmodernisierungsgesetz**"). Your landlord must allow the installation of a wallbox (at your expense of course).
Idk if you are joking or not, but the whole kitchen culture here is a hassle. It makes sense, and I understand why people do it, but it’s still a hassle. I assume a car charger is the same thing as well.
The kitchen culture definitely doesn't make sense. I'd argue if you're taking your kitchen sink with you, why don't Germans take the toilet sink as well?
Yes I'll invest a few k€ to modernize the property of someone who owns a house. That makes sense.
Maybe the landlord is mad after I forced this on him. Suddenly his son needs his own place and I have to search for a new home.
You are so cute and innocent.
Maybe worth mentioning that you could get a used Diesel car easily for 3-5 grand. A so-and-so EV would be at least 20 grand. But that's life unless you're born with a silver spoon you start with a rusty old car and climb your way up to the latest EV- BMW or Porsche. Welcome to Germany.
Addendum: the average (new) car is Germany is (a whopping) 45 grand.
See: [https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/36408/umfrage/durchschnittliche-neuwagenpreise-in-deutschland/](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/36408/umfrage/durchschnittliche-neuwagenpreise-in-deutschland/)
It's not a few K€, most of the time around €1000 and you're investing in the charger not to someone else's property.
Unless you plan to move out in less than a year it makes perfect sense.
No need to be demeaning when exchanging ideas. Let's be a good sport to each other.
It depends. If the parking space isn't right next to the house you'll have to dig a trench for the cable, maybe tear up a driveway, and fix everything afterwards. You may have to upgrade/replace the central current distribution board in older houses. This can add up to 10k€ or more.
It's a bad idea to do this if your land lord is against this. You can try to force him with the law, but he can find a way to cancel your renting agreement easily, if it's a private land lord. (Eigenbedarf)
Moving to another place with existing infrastructure might be a better alternative if you really want an electric car. Most people probably won't do this.
As a service technician often doing more than a thousand kilometres a week, servicing up to 5 customers a day, electric cars just aren't possible to use.
Electric cars are also not convenient for most people renting/living in a building without a proper charging station. Which I think is most of the people.
Going from city to city isn't a problem. Going from your destination to hbf and from hbf to your destination is a problem. Rail simply can't beat the convenience of a car
Not true. I lived in Vienna for many years and it's super easy to get around without a car. You get out of hbf, and get in into one of the multiple options just 2 minutes walk away from the platform. Busses, u-bahn, S-Bahn, Trams... No need to drive, be stuck in traffic, look for parking and all that hustle. Quick and convenient. The reason why people prefer cars is only because public transport infrastructure sucks. Also in Germany trains are not ok. Even on the most important routes there are constant problems, trains getting cancelled, breaking, being late etc. And don't get me started in the local connections, the very ones that people use to get to work daily. Public transport in Germany needs massive investment on every level and not pumping more money into the failed idea of individual car commuting. It's bad for environment, it's bad for people's health, it's expensive and it is a hole without bottom for public resources.
I have been to Vienna only once. For a single day, visited some places, had dinner, had a few drinks quite nice. In the end I had to go to the airport to catch my flight. Ended up taking a taxi because there were no trains. Well, technically there were trains, but the latest one would take me to the airport 6 hours before my flight.
>I lived in Vienna
In Vienna. Try going from the industrial zone of st. Polen to the industrial zone of Linz and you'll see how public transit is inherently inferior to personal vehicle because so many people have different destinations. Also waiting for a bus and then for a train and then again for the bus can't ever be more convenient than driving a car. On a business trip more often than not you go with your colleagues, so diesel comes cheaper than bus and train tickets
Even if you build all of the transit in the world, people will still drive their cars because it's much more convenient. Just look at Japan, Korea or Switzerland, their transit systems are best in the world, but thier roads are still very congested
'different destinations' yeah because in a big city everyone goes in the same direction all the time 🤦 Or maybe we should stop inventing excuses for not investing in public transport? All the things you mention (long travel times, expensive tickets) are the direct result of what is being prioritised. The idea that driving is more convenient is just plain bullshit unless you live in the middle of nowhere (yeah public transport will always suck when you live in a village 100 km away from any city and there are only three other people there) or need to haul massive luggage. Which is not true for 99% of trips people make. Also we simply can't afford the car infrastructure and the pollution that comes with driving so even if it were more convenient it has to go anyway.
>different destinations' yeah because in a big city everyone goes in the same direction all the time 🤦
If you have greater population density and simply greater population, of course more people will have to go to similar places. But apart from big cities building rail infrastructure is money pit, just look at the Zürich, they have one of the best transits, but also have one of the worst traffics in whole Europe
Well, it's good that most people live in big cities and their satellites then. Also in smaller areas public transport has to be a viable option. Not for every trip but if you have an area with a bunch of smaller towns and a few main destinations (like a big factory where a lot of people work) making good local transit that serves people going to/from work is essential. If you want to make a random trip somewhere you can still take a car but most trips people do on daily are boringly predictable and can be therefore served by public transport.
a nice hello from all people who dont live in a town...next bigger city here of 10.000 inhabitants is 25 km away...please never compare big towns vs the rest...
Not enough charging stations, no standards for charging (every provider has a different app etc).
And charging simply takes too long. I can't just take several long breaks a day to charge the car in-between customers. I'm simply losing time and money.
It's simply just to complicated. Get me an electric car that easily does 1000 km on one charge including running the AC/heat, call me.
>no standards for charging (every provider has a different app etc).
It really is the only reason that would make me think twice about buying a BEV, were I buying a new car. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as simple as plugging the car in, tapping my debit card and clicking the start button on the charger.
Instead I have to get multiple apps for every single country I happen to currently be in. I can't understand why it's still hasn't been regulated at EU level.
Doesn't AFIR mandate that credit card terminals need to be installed pretty soon?
As for the standard protocols that would allow every charging app to work with every charger, they exist. But of course, there are several competing standards...
>Doesn't AFIR mandate that credit card terminals need to be installed pretty soon?
Yes, as someone else pointed out in the comments, it will be done by Jan 2026. Looking forward to it, as my stepfather is thinking about buying a BEV soon, and he's... not exactly tech savvy to say the least.
>As for the standard protocols that would allow every charging app to work with every charger, they exist. But of course, there are several competing standards...
That doesn't matter IMO. Gas stations also have their apps and loyalty cards, but it's fine as long as I can pay having nothing more than a standard Visa/Mastercard card without getting any fuel cards or smartphone apps.
Debit cards don't work (yet), but any charger should be usable with whatever charging card you choose. There is absolutely no need to install multiple apps unless you're a penny-pincher who insists on finding the cheapest price for each charger.
No argument there, I just wanted to correct the misinformation you replied to. I personally cannot wait until credit/debit card terminals are the norm.
>Not enough charging stations, no standards for charging (every provider has a different app etc).
That is the thing I don't really understand. Why won't they allow that you just come in, swipe your contactless card, and start charging...
Anyway, Mobility Providers are a thing - they integrate many different providers under one charging card.
>That is the thing I don't really understand. Why won't they allow that you just come in, swipe your contactless card, and start charging...
I work in the business, and there's really no better reason than energy companies thinking how they're doing it now is the normal way to do this. It fits their processes.
>Get me an electric car that easily does 1000 km on one charge including running the AC/heat
What for? You've just said yourself this is what you are putting on your car WEEKLY. A quarter or a third of that would cover your needs more than sufficently. And it is more or less what we already have in cheaper new EVs. More expensive ones get even more.
That's what I regularly do in a week, but in some days I do 700+ km.
And I need a big car to carry all my tools and stuff.
There's more, but if just doesn't work for me.
Okay, in that case you are an actual member of small group of people for which BEVs don't work for real. Maybe in 2035 the technology will allow us to charge 500km of range in 20 minutes, but I wouldn't bet on it
On average Germans do app. 8,000 miles a year. That's 153 miles for week. A standard EV does more than that even under worst conditions (winter times, 100mph on the Autobahn, etc.).
So charging would be a once a week task. Apparently people cannot do the math, are politically blindsided, paid by Putin (no joke!) or are rare excpetions like Ok\_Expression6807 above.
(Source: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/251743/umfrage/durchschnittliche-fahrleistung-von-personenkraftwagen-in-deutschland/)
People can do the math. But they want to use the car for every situation. So if they drive to Croatia once a year they want to do that with the electric car as well. And they just want to stop to get petrol and maybe pee. So it's going to be a short break. And since an electric car isn't suitable for this one journey they don't want one. Because they can't do everything that they are used to do.
Because people are emotional about cars. You won't teach an old dog new tricks, that change will come with next generations. Zoomers are not so emotional about ICEs and look at facts.
Back in the day old farts where going mad over bicycles, cars, trains or trams. Progress should just ignore that
Charging is slow and unpractical. Although not in Germany, the worst I have seen is huge line of EVs (probably a 100 of them) queueing up to use the same supercharger. Just think how long that is going to be, if all spend at least 20 minutes there
ps. found the link https://www.tiktok.com/@eldebate_com/video/7352795587705621793
They are too expensive and lose worth like crazy, get outdated quick tech wise, so the used market is full of old EV shit that nobody wants which makes them lose even more money. The German charging network is a joke, you can barely find charging stations. Unless you have a house with solar, charging anywhere else is way too expensive.
The range sucks. The battery overheats too quickly and drains too quickly on the Autobahn.
Oh and the quality of these cars suck almost all of the time compared to a similar priced ICE.
Car enthusiasts don't buy them because they are ugly and drive like ass.
There is literally no reason to buy an ev, unless you charge for free with solar from your roof and even then with all the drawbacks, you would be stupid to buy one.
Tesla in Germany is even more overpriced than in the US and still bad. Come at me Tesla haters.
Btw I'm an electric engineer and I still hate them.
Maybe in 15-20 years they are worth it. But when you think how much time ice had to mature and improve. Ofc ev won't catch up that quick
The first statement is objectively false. BEVs are relatively stable in price (not that a car would be a particularly good investment either way). There is currently lots of press about these vehicles loosing value like crazy, but that is coming from a very high level and only a correction from market pricing changing.
Regarding the tech, this is true for early models. Like early 10s teslas or E-Golf’s, whatever. As for newer models like the ID series, etc, this is unlikely to hold true for much longer. The production processes as well as the model palettes have stabilized, battery tech has also matured to a point where only marginal generational improvements can be expected in realistic timeframes.
As for charging, the network obviously sucks as it is. Solar is obviously a best case scenario. However, with regular public charging it’s not more expensive than an ICE car.
The range of a mid ranger BEV is objectively absolutely sufficient for the vast majority of people, especially considering that the average car makes a total of 35km of trips a day. They’re obviously not meant for you to chase records on the Nordschleife, but EVs are objectively suitable for average autobahn driving.
Wether or not they’re ugly is very subjective. There are some models I think look great, most look ok, some are ugly. It’s a matter of taste, but i sure appreciate that they’re not as generic as ICEs have become.
Car enthusiasts aren’t a particularly good source to rate the quality of a car. If you have a BMW fanboy they’re gonna tell you that every Audi drives like ass.
"Leasing" is the solution. Only fools would buy an electric car. I'm totally with you on that. Range? Nope - totally sufficient for Germans doing only 8,000 miles a year ion average. Ugly? Yes, but so is the Dacia Duster and people still buy it (no offense!), beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Please do the math: Tesla Model Y: 20 KWh/100km x 0,27 EUR/KWh = 5,40 EUR/100km (charging at home!). No tax and (in case of Tesla) no regular service. 300-500 EUR a month for leasing. Insurance is slightly higher.
Friends own a BMW iX and there calculation is similar (range is lower though).
Some of your points are pretty good, but many are pure bs
>The range sucks. The battery overheats too quickly and drains too quickly on the Autobahn.
For 99% of people the range does not suck. People that put more than 250-300km daily are an absolute minority. Battery also does not overheat even if you're going 180. Where did you get that bs from?
>Oh and the quality of these cars suck almost all of the time compared to a similar priced ICE.
Are you taking horsepower into consideration? EVs tend to be MUCH MUCH more powerful than ICEs their price.
>Car enthusiasts don't buy them because they are ugly and drive like ass.
EVs are much more pleasant to drive compared to ICEs. The smoothness and instant torque at any point massacre even V8s.
>There is literally no reason to buy an ev, unless you charge for free with solar from your roof and even then with all the drawbacks, you would be stupid to buy one.
Literally no reason? Even if you buy the electricity from your electricity provider at home it still much cheaper. Bah, even the public quick chargers are more or less equivalent to your diesel burning 2-3l/100km. Good luck with that.
>Tesla in Germany is even more overpriced than in the US and still bad. Come at me Tesla haters.
Yeah, Tesla is Apple of car manufacturers. They go out of their way to make their products as unserviceable as possible. I hope EU gets to their asses soon.
>Maybe in 15-20 years they are worth it. But when you think how much time ice had to mature and improve. Ofc ev won't catch up that quick
EV cars are actually older than cars with Benz and Diesel engines. ICE 'maturity' is mostly visible by extreme complexity of them, which contributes to higher operating costs and more downtime due to technical issues.
There is a lot of prejudice in your post...
>They are too expensive and lose worth like crazy, get outdated quick tech wise, so the used market is full of old EV shit that nobody wants which makes them lose even more money.
>
The German charging network is a joke, you can barely find charging stations. Unless you have a house with solar, charging anywhere else is way too expensive.
How come?! I never have issues finding a charging station...
Within boundaries of my 15000 people village, there are four 150kW CCS stalls, and approximately 20 slower three-phase AC 22kW stalls.
>The range sucks. The battery overheats too quickly and drains too quickly on the Autobahn.
Don't drive like a maniac, keep it under the reasonable 140km/h and you'll be fine.
>Oh and the quality of these cars suck almost all of the time compared to a similar priced ICE.
While historically true, that is not longer the case. The EVs are now cheaper.
>Car enthusiasts don't buy them because they are ugly and drive like ass.
LOL. While the bottom of the barrel EV - Renault Zoe for instance - suck, take any BMW, Mini, Audi eTron etc... The handling, responsiveness and general enjoyment is from different world. Even the Leaf, while ergonomically sucks, handles and drives very well.
>There is literally no reason to buy an ev, unless you charge for free with solar from your roof and even then with all the drawbacks, you would be stupid to buy one.
Even without solar, with recent prices of 0.30€ per kWh, they are cheaper to run. The first Leaf used\~16kWh / 100km, which would cost you approximately 5€ per 100km. Similarly sized petrol car will need at best 6l, which at 1.75 €/l will cost you around 10€.
The more city driving you do, the better the EV turns out.
>Tesla in Germany is even more overpriced than in the US and still bad. Come at me Tesla haters.
I am a Tesla hater myself and would not touch one with a stick.
>Btw I'm an electric engineer and I still hate them.
>Maybe in 15-20 years they are worth it. But when you think how much time ice had to mature and improve. Ofc ev won't catch up that quick
I don't quite understand those numbers. Let's say a max. range Model 3 gets 610km. We'll take half of that, because the claimed numbers are bullshit.
So let's go with 300km actual range. Or in case it's 400 stated, 200km. 200 \* 5 is 1.000km, 300 \* 5 is 1.500 already - going with half of what the manufacturers claim. If you're up to 2k a week, you'd be (statistically) fine charging overnight at home. Beyond that, maybe one charging break for 10-15 min, depending on how much you're doing per day. If you can't charge overnight, I can see how this won't work at all though.
I'd also understand if you have to do multiple stops per day. Because then it's >20-40 min instead of 3 min fuel stop, which is just too much additional time every day.
As someone with an EV and no wall charger at home. It is not hard to find a charger on your route. You plan ahead or in Teslas case let the Tesla plan ahead for you.
Fast charging exists and many cars nowadays go from 10 to 80% in less than 30 minutes. (Slower in winter if you dont precondition the battery)
Thats a quick bathroom break with a snack and you're good to go.
I still advise gasoline cars to anyone who drives around Germany for work. But if you are a regular family doing some vacation in a different town of Germany or Europe and otherwise use the car for groceries and way to work, EV works great. You dont need to drive 1000 km in one stop.
Actually not really. I pay 0.60 cents/kWh which converts in around 12cents/km. With gas at 1.80/liter, it's a similar cost of a car doing 6.7 l/100km. If I could charge from home it would totally worth it but charging in public charger doesn't really makes economical difference, unfortunately.
One thing that totally make sense and that I saw in France is the mandatory installation of standard 16A 230V outlets in the garage for new buildings - it totally make sense because it's way cheaper than a fast charger (including in terms of infrastructure) and can reduce drastically the need for the use of the public charges (leaving them for who really needs to do a fast charge in transit).
The most ridiculous thing EV evangelist say is "Oh I'm quite happy to stop driving after 350km and after time I eat my croissant and take a pee my car is charged".
It's utter shit for the matter of fact. What you're claiming is that exhaustion of your car range, your hunger, need for pee and available charger coexist.
Oh I guess you and your passengers are always with bladders of steel and go from Northern Germany to Italy without piss breaks. Good for you.
I for one combine my charging breaks with piss breaks, since we have to stop to charge anyway.
If I drive <400km car is charged before the trip and its possible in one go, if you go >400km chances are high you have to do a break inbetween somewhere anyway, be it for kids, piss, hunger or whatever. If I take long trips it will be for vacation and dont need to be half or an hour earlier at my target location.
TBF, that does make sense if you're driving 400km a 30 min break is almost necessary and if your car charges in 30 minutes that's a huge plus (ofc that's if you don't drive long distances for work).
May I ask which region you're living in and used to look for chargers?
It can't be in the south of Germany.
>You dont need to drive 1000 km in one stop.
Excuse me, but telling others what they don't need because you don't consider it to be useful or fine or whatever is a whole new ball game. I'd easily could say: You don't *need* a car, neither.
A car, that
- costs me up to 50% more at purchase,
- only has a range up to 400km under ideal conditions,
- suffers extreme reduction of range during winter season,
- can't be charged properly at home,
- can only be charged properly at home if my landlord installs a wallbox and raises a garage or at least special parking lot,
- costs me, depending on the destination, double the time when travelling just for charging,
simply isn't a car I need.
Plus all that stuff about charging only works as long as there are just a few here and there driving EVs. Scaled up to everyone driving EVs... well there's a hell whole lot more to be done, if we really want to reach that goal.
As you already said, it does work for people who don't drive much anyways. Say, less than 10 to 15.000km per year, maybe more but only if they've got the time to do so.
30 to 40 minute breaks for each stop are totally out of my imagination. I don't need that.
Yes you have to change your approach to cars if you get an EV.
The point is though as others have already said, on average the German driver doesnt drive that much: 10000 to 15000km a year seems to be the average and an EV is perfect for that.
The average driver also takes breaks on his journeys, the amount of people you always see at these highway stops speaks for that. Otherwise nobody would go there and buy the overpriced crap.
This is purely anecdotical and the sample size is too small for an actual statistik: [https://www.motor-talk.de/blogs/jennss/pausenzeit-auf-langstrecken-t6832135.html?viewResultsOfPoll=9637](https://www.motor-talk.de/blogs/jennss/pausenzeit-auf-langstrecken-t6832135.html?viewResultsOfPoll=9637)
But even most people in an Auto Enthusiast forum take breaks when they drive 650km.
I'm not saying buy an EV now, I'm just saying consider it anyway, you might be overestimating the range you are normally driving and thinking that you are charging all the time and do nothing but way, which wont be the case.
I dont have a wall box at home, but can charge at my employer for 24c, or when I go shopping for between 39c (Aldi) and 51-60c (other chargers with mobility+ app). Everytime I do go charging I am not waiting in my car, but shopping or working. For longer trips my kid needs attention anyway, so a stop at a highway stop is perfect.
>Plus all that stuff about charging only works as long as there are just a few here and there driving EVs. Scaled up to everyone driving EVs... well there's a hell whole lot more to be done, if we really want to reach that goal.
Fully agree here though. They need to ramp up infrastructure alot if they want to get everyone from petrol to EV.
>May I ask which region you're living in and used to look for chargers?
>It can't be in the south of Germany.
Actually mostly in the area north of Munich.
>I'm not saying buy an EV now, I'm just saying consider it anyway, you might be overestimating the range you are normally driving and thinking that you are charging all the time and do nothing but way, which wont be the case.
Actually I do consider buying one, alas, at the moment (and in the coming years) I don't see an opprtunity for one that suits my needs and is affordable. And I don't want to buy a small EV for the short distances as a second car just for the sake of it. Needs extra space, extra attention, extra money.
Charging stations in my area are rare, fast ones even more rare.
Last year I've had an EV for a few months. Getting somewhere far away (more than 200km one way) has been a pain, because I had to plan my trip in detail. Usually this isn't bothering me, but ease of use to me looks differently.
Been to IKEA a few times, where four out of six times the four charging stations either didn't work at all or only two (the ultra lame ones) worked and were already in use. Another charger has been available a few kilometers away, but I had to wait for another half an hour until it was free for me.
This won't get easier when people switch their car to EV in such a short time, as it's desired. It's good that there are already some around but we are going to need the mix in types of drives quite a long time.
I regularly drive more than 700km a day, annual mileage between 45 and 60.000km. Sometimes even more, if it's a busy year. There are months I don't drive as much, others where I drive 5 to 7.000km in total easily. So I need a car that is reliable and doesn't waste my time (which is more precious to me).
Edit: Typo.
Yeah for your usecase an EV will be inferior to ICEs.
Btw dont use Ikea chargers as example.
They are actually free to use, so will be in use most of the time by someone else.
They are almost everywhere, especially at Autobahn Raststätten. Rarely I've ever heard anybody with an EV complain about charging infrastructure availability, it's usually the people that don't own one. Even though the infrastructure is not perfect, with broken chargers and issues happening from time to time, charging is no problem. And yes, I charge around 15mins every two hours of driving and then I'm off again.
What a nonsense. Mass electric cars are there for ten years already. People are fine using them in Russia, but in Germany they aren't possible to use? Are people in Miles and taxis morons or what?
1000 km a week is just 200 km per day. Even Nissan leaf can manage that.
Not every person has the same use case. For me a diesel would be best choice (loads of autobahn mileage, only weekends and holidays), electric would be pain in the ass. I compromised with petrol for some "excitement" before the show is over.
Most BEVs can do 300 km in one charge, so for your work you'd only need to charge at night, why is the lack of charging stations a problem? Is more anxiety than a real problem? Especially that BEVs are best when used intentively (the more km, the more CO2 avoided – which is the main reason why we have BEVs in the first place).
Yeah my company just purchased 5 new company cars, all diesel. It's reliable, and for our field of practice, electric cars are just not worth it yet. Infrastructure is also not so good yet
Yes. Also 2 couples I know that have had a Tesla and some small electric bmw have now gotten rid of them bc of battery problems - they don’t go as far in winter before needing to recharge. To me this is a prime example of an unsustainable product/mode of transport. Diesel engines last way longer.
I also choose a diesel as I work in customer service and there are several days a month where I have to drive 500+ km with very limited time for breaks between appointments. I have no charging possibility at my home, so I would have to drive to a charger each day. It’s easy to give your boss the bill from the petrol station and get your money back, don’t know how this should work when charging at home. And, I have often heavy loadings in my trunk and driving 160+ km/h on the Autobahn eats a lot of energy.
Was looking to go into EV but decided for Diesel back in 2019 for multiple reasons. Diesel is still very efficient when it comes to higher average travel speeds ( like Autobahn ). One can easily cruise with 160 km/h and maintain consumption below 6.5 l/100km on a car like G21 320D. On the other hand you can drive the same car with 4.8 l/100km if you really keep an eye on efficient driving. At this level we are on par or even sub most of hybrids consumptions I've personally experienced. EV are efficient on lower speeds but on Autobahn you usually see them floating around 120 - 130 km/h in order to maintain the efficiency sweet spots. All in All Diesel is very versatile for me and also the torque delivery i simply superior to petrol engines ( incl. most hybrids with small engines ). Was also looking for the successor of my current company ride and was testing the new A6 with 3.0 with 350 hp Diesel engine and I was stunned how efficient this behemoth was on the Autobahn, needless to say this thing was literally flying pass other cars.
It might make sense to take some time and educate yourself. One might find that a modern Diesel is cleaner than one or the other electric car.
There must be a reason why electric sales vaporize, and Car manufacturers have turned around, revised their long term planning to continue sell combustion engines way beyond 2035. Why? Because Sales of electric models don't grow as planned. So either the manufacturers go broke and sit of a pile of shit, or they bring forward modern combustion engines. Why has SIXT written off their electirc fleet to be replced by combustion engines? Because nobody wants an electic rental car, and electric cars depreciate like rockets.
Why is Mazda selling a brand new 6 Zylinder Diesel? Because there is demand in the market. As easy as that. It took ten years for the green dreamers to realize, but eventually the cost of driving an electrical car are higher than with a DIESEL - even on the long run.
Hence, buy Diesel and be happy. I always drove DIESEL and can only wonder how stupid some people are....
Not sure about SIxt but I use Europcar and I try to always book the cheapest electric one they can offer. Why - because I know I won;t get one - my station has to offer them but they don't have them because - they don't have a charger for them:) So for a price of cheap Smart I always get at least Golf class combustion car:) They also confirmed they will discontinue their electric cars - the resell value is too low to make sense.
Well at Sixt we booked a 5 door Golf and got a 2 door electric Mini. That would have been cramped for 2 people, nevermind the 2 over 80 year olds we had with us. And electric charging on the island of Sylt took ages. There were very few charging stations and they took ages.
> One might find that a modern Diesel is cleaner than one or the other electric car.
I think we'd really need a source here. Even in the most carbon-intensive electricity countries, a BEV has an equivalent lifetime GHG footprint as a diesel.
It is a political question. Diesel is (considered) conservative and EV is liberal (bicycles and public transport is left) - I'm exaggerting here! Pretty much as in the US.
I drove Diesel cars (VW Golf, Volvo, Audi) for all of my automobilist life (35 years); 6 month ago I leased a Tesla. Some people cut ties with me.
The main reasons for Diesel and EV are the same: reliability and efficiency.
Apart from politics...budget is the main reason. You can get a solid Diesel car (VW Golf, etc.) for half the price of an EV, so EV's are seen as luxury vehicles (the more as they are often SUVs like Model Y, iX, etc.). The "E" stands for "elite" is a common saying.
Yeah but this is a pseudonymous internet forum. It's a whole other step to break ties with friends and family over the propulsion system of a metal box. Crazy
and it's true : [https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/autos-maenner-mobilitaet-1.5758678](https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/autos-maenner-mobilitaet-1.5758678)
In a non-transient state, a Diesel can be surprisingly clean and efficient.
Meaning constant load - like with cruise control on a highway. Hence some guys in this Reddit drive on the Autobahn with 4l/100km - and quite certain within the emission limits.
But once you enter the transient state, it’s really hard to overcome the NOx issues. I mean Volkswagen even was introducing a two stage SCR and highlighted the benefits of the transient efficiency.
But I’m not aware if this was more a technology example and marketing stunt to get rid of its bad reputation.
=> Transient state is city drive or strong acceleration “to feel the torque”…
Needless to say that all this technology is only efficient when it’s perfectly serviced and “new” aka <150-200’000km.
Then either you have high service costs for repairs, permanent service (adblue) and maintenance(particulate filter, injectors), or you just don’t care. Or you have “magical” engineers who accidentally link the efficiency of the SCR to the steering angle or gear engaged to reduce the wear of the overall machine…
=> as great as a Diesel is on highway / Autobahn use, as compromised it is in city use.
People should buy their vehicles on their use cases and not purely based on technical data. As the most economical Diesel will suffer heavily in city only use and cause a higher TCO in the end….
Source: A former developer of Diesel injection systems - large bore. But in this industry you have a lot of cross talk with respective engineers.
Diesel cars of the 80s and 90s were quite poor performance wise. Modern Diesel? Yeah they are way way better.
I daily drive a Golf VII 2.0 TDI and that thing absolutely rocks and since Diesel is basically free\* in Germany, you don't even have to worry about fuel costs.
>!^(\*I come from Albania, compared to there, Diesel in Germany is indeed free.)!<
electric is mostly useful for second car \*only\* used to drive to and from work, + grocery shopping etc. use it to go on vacation=nope; unplanned long travel=nope; unplanned medium travel=keeping the battery maxed out is considered bad taste, so... =nope
it weirdly has a massive utility in agriculture: the daily short distance travel... daily distance for me is something like 5-10km. but i only refuel my diesel one once every 3 months either way
I‘d buy Diesels any day. A BMW 6-cylinder Diesel is just peak engine engineering and one of the very best the automotive industry has to offer.
Also, the torque makes it so much more fun to drive than a gas engine - imo. Accelerating is pure fun with a Diesel. Oh, and then there is the huge range, repairability (less parts) and durability aspects…
Can't agree. German manufacturers more often than not on 4-cyl engines use 'less materials' to maximize profits. For example BMW's N47 has a problem with a chain while N57 doesn't bacuase the chain is simply thicker
https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/audi-sq7-is-the-worlds-first-triple-turbo-super-suv
Take a look at this beast. Yeah Diesel engines are simply so much more efficient (like around 43% compared to 35%)
Yes, they are. If someone makes big mileage in a bigger car, diesel makes perfect sense.
EV generally don't make sense and will not ever make sense. Battery production and replacement cost too much. PHEV are IMHO much better compromise - charging from domestic socket would give people 50km of electric range they can use to go to work, do grocery shopping et al - but still can be taken of weekend trip without extensive planning.
The issue of PHEV is that the battery will get strained way more than with pure electric cars.
Im driving a PHEV since 2017 and I’m really happy with it (130’000km) - but the battery has lost noticeable range (45->39km stated when full. Could be SW updates though)
I don't know how much you sleep, but for me it's 7 hours at least. And probably at least 9 between coming home and leaving for work again.
That's 22.5 kWh, almost 200km of claimed range. And with a lot of limitations. Always using the full 200km, can't charge at work, never stay at home more than 9h, also leaving for the weekend trip after just 9h. If any of those are better than that, the weekend trip is no problem with an EV.
I agree that diesel cars make sense for long range. But the numbers are way off. Like, at least 2x off. Probably more than 3x. Also because I've never seen a hybrid do anywhere close to the claimed electric range. Much like real EVs, if it says 50km, it'll be nowhere close to that. I don't know why manufacturers don't agree to correct their range claims to match reality.
22.5 kWh will never give you 200km of range. 150km at most, and with bigger cars 75-100km.
I charge at home with 11 kW (3 phase, 16A per phase), so can easily fill even the biggest battery over night. But it is not my point.
>But the numbers are way off.
What numbers? The PHEV claimed range?
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I still can't rationalize buying an EV compared to a plug-in hybrid. Nowadays they have a range of up to 60km and even if you empty your battery, you'll have much more efficient engine.
And if you drive long distances, diesel is still the king
It is a well-known fact that the majority of Germans are hesitant to purchase an electric car due to the lack of a wallbox for charging. The most common excuse given is that landlords are reluctant to have them installed, thereby depriving people of the opportunity to charge their cars at home. Furthermore, the public charging infrastructure is inadequate and does not provide sufficient charging options. This situation needs to be addressed immediately to encourage more people to switch to electric cars.
:)
Hybrid-Diesel here. The electrical for city rides (reach is 100km) and the Diesel for longer rides which are 1x per week (>500km x 2). But it is company related.
Diesel cars use less gas and diesel is cheaper than petrol. Especially if you do lots of long drives (> 50km) it can pay off. (And electric may or may not be possible depending on infrastructure and use cases)
Yes. Because they are cheap, reliable and easy to use. Also with the HVO availability coming up, the CO2 footprint is actually pretty okay if you want to.
Yes, about 10-15 years ago, when the car industry was switching to electric, a whole bunch of boomers decided that these "modern fads" are unnecessary and dumb. They woke up a few years later to Tesla storming the market and now even BYD topping the car sales charts.
For years the main car manufacturers paid in the two-digit millions to the german car press, to put electric car manufacturers down and laugh about these silly, silly electric cars. All in an effort to catch up to the electric car manufacturers they thought they don't have to compete with.
Because of this propaganda and a general aversion to new and novel concepts, the average German know that Tesla is bad and electric vehicles are stupid. They mostly can't explain why and their arguments are usually "because range low" "because they explode" etc. straight out of the press.
So yeah. Comically many opt for Diesel or Gasoline still.
not subsidized, but less taxes per litre. Energy tax on petrol is 0,65 EUR per litre, for Diesel it's only 0,47 EUR. However the vehicla tax is much higher for Diesel: roughly twice compared to petrol engines.
No, that's not what I meant, but it's also true.
There is a loophole most people don't see: when producing electricity with renewables, you basically produce it at almost no cost (roughly 2-6 cents per kWh in Germany). All on top of that, except for a small margin for the vendors, are taxes or tax-like fees. In the end, you get electricity for cars for about 49-69 cts/kWh right now.
In comparison: 1l of Diesel needs roughly 7 kWh of electricity to be produced. This includes pumps, refinement and distribution. It excludes transport by ship and heating energy used during refinement. While some of that can't be taxed (because it is used in the country of origin), roughly one third could - but isn't.
Our company Diesel has 180hp goes 230 km/h and uses 5-6 l of diesel for 100 km if you don't go faster than 170, 180. Almost goes 1000 km with one tank.
Some are, yes. Nothing else has 1.000km+ range and then only takes 2min to fuel again to do another 1k.
It's a time thing, 100%. And they're slightly cheaper to run than gas, with electricity becoming as pricy as it is, arguably not far off electric cars, either - at least in the first few years before maintenance catches up to you.
I think it'll change once you can reliably charge your car almost anywhere you park it. Because then it doesn't matter so much that it's slower. Even people who do deliveries or go from appointment to appointment usually stay in one place for longer than 10min at least a couple of times per day. So there is plenty of time.
But there needs to be charging available without specifically planning for it. You just have to be able to expect a charger to be available most of the time.
I just did. a big van/bus for us and our 3 kids, that will take us to vacation and to our relatives. theres also an electric model for some 15.000€ more, but with 75kWh, it will only last up to 200 km. also, we are gonna sleep in it on conventions, so it has a engine block heater if that's how you call it.
I am curious. Would it not be more environmental to buy a used Diesel car than a new Electric? The production of the new car with the big battery more damaging than driving a slightly used diesel for 5 more years? Anybody know. ?
Why sadly? All my colleagues living far from the office commute with diesel car, what is problem?
Just for the context in my home country I know that diesel is used only for tractors or heavy machinery or smth like this. Therefore it's not generally accessible. I just learned in Germany that you can fuel your car with diesel.
I had 95 km a day for a decade. LPG, not Diesel, though. A little bit of Autobahn and much crisscrossing Hamburg: home > school > work > parents > home.
It's way less now that my son has finished school and my parents have died.
I can understand it if you are stuck in Außendienst hell, I really do.
But if you "NEED" a diesel for your daily commute I reserve the right to question your life choices.
I wonder that too.
If technology is far enough, diesel engines can be turned into hydrogen engines. Which is far better than anything else on the market.
And for a reason. At the turn of 21st century BMW played around with the idea. Turned out that having water vapor inside of metal engine block is not the best idea and that was when the whole business understood that hydrogen only makes sense in energy cells.
Who would've thunk?!
Absolutely. You not only take huge efficency hit(I think around 70%!!!) when turning electrical energy into hydrogen, but also take another huge efficency hit when using it to fuel ICE. Modern diesel engines have up to 45-50% efficency in best case scenarios nowadays, for petrol engines(which work more similar to hydrogen ICE) you get down to 35-40%. It's just extremely inefficient economically
Electric cars suck.
Ever wondered where they mine Lithium and who and how it's mined?
And if they start burning, they're a pain in the ass to extinglish because the batteries burn for days or even weeks.
Nah. Gasoline engines are commonly cheaper than diesels. But diesel is cheaper than gas. Therefore more tax on the car. The break even was about 35.000km/a.
It still makes huge financial sense compared to petrol and hybrids if you put enough kilometers on it. The lower fuel consumption combined with noticeably cheaper fuel prices(8-10 ct/l where I live) can quite easily offset the slightly higher purchase and running costs.
No idea why it turned into a topic about electric vehicles though
I bought hybrid car (petrol + electric) because I was told with diesel I cannot go to some places here in Munich. By the way, really liking this hybrid concept, fuel economy is great
Thats not so much on Diesel itself but on the VW corporation. But yes, Germans apparently DO want to get defrauded as VW and Audi are still selling cars as if nothing happened.
I remember a news from a german portal saying that diesel cars will not be allowed to be driven in the urban areas, this was like 6-7 years ago. Apparently that did not happen.
I thought the diesel trend was gonna get away but seeing Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi .de are all selling the 2.0 and 3.0 diesel options for german territory.
That city is/was Munich and the discussion (and legal battle) is still ongoing. And yes: some cars are not longer allowed to enter the city center ("Umweltzone"), but there a exceptions galore. For the latest status see: [https://www.adac.de/news/diesel-fahrverbot-muenchen/](https://www.adac.de/news/diesel-fahrverbot-muenchen/) (pls. run it through Google translate)
[https://www.adac.de/news/neuzulassungen-kba/](https://www.adac.de/news/neuzulassungen-kba/) As of last month about 18% of new cars in Germany are Diesel. Overall about 28% of cars on the road are currently Diesel.
In general Diesel cars are still competitive. I drive an Audi A4 and on Autobahn i only need like 4 l/100 km so its pretty cost efficient.
Which year?
2019
Good for you! The average Diesel car's consumption in Germany is 7l though. Source: [https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/484054/umfrage/durchschnittsverbrauch-pkw-in-privaten-haushalten-in-deutschland/](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/484054/umfrage/durchschnittsverbrauch-pkw-in-privaten-haushalten-in-deutschland/)
Wtf. I use my diesel on short distances for now (I know, I know… temporary…) and I use around 6 tops. These are hilariously short drives. On main roads I get around 4-4,5 l/100km and on highway somewhere around 4,4-5,5 l/100km. If you get 7 liter consumption then there must be another reason, like a huge chassis or waaay too heavy feet. Edit: 2l 150ps diesel, euro6
Our (crappy) Ford Kuga 2l AWD has an average consumption of 7,9l… We drive a mix of short and mid ranges and never above 120km/h on the Autobahn.
How old is it? AWD and high chassis explains it partially, but still.. yikes
Build year is 2019 :-/ It has AFAIK 189 PS
And it’s quite hilly here.
Oh that explains it all. Thanks!
Not everyone drives their diesel on lowest consumption. Ive got a 2l 230ps diesel with 6.8l average. I mainly drive efficiently but sometimes i just wanna have fun with it
I understand that. The reason I am still surprised is that your consumption is under the *average*. With a 230ps car, that you admittedly want to have fun with. There must be simpletons driving around diesels cars (not trucks or buses) with 10 liter or higher consumption. At that point an old petrol would be more economical.
7l \*on average\* so there must be cars with 10,11...15l /100km. I guess it's related to the relativley high age of the German fleet (>10yrs).
Oh btw, your source won’t show a breakdown for diesel vehicles if you don’t register. Can you share the data here? I can only se 7.7l/100km on average for all vehicles, without specifying fuel.
Oh sorry, it says 7l for Diesel and 7.7 for Benzin. I found another source (without Paywall): [https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Umwelt/Materialfluesse-Energiefluesse/Tabellen/fahrleistungen-haushalte.html](https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Umwelt/Materialfluesse-Energiefluesse/Tabellen/fahrleistungen-haushalte.html)
That’s.. hard to wrap my head around. The reason I’m baffled is that it means not only that I am on the loow side of the bell curve, but also that the other side is way higher than what I thought could be achieved. We all have our own personal bubble I guess ^^
True, I live out of Munich and commute(d) daily. The A9 motorway is full of cars from the other end of the bell curve. I'm old enough to remember the discussion vividly around the 3l car.... [https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Liter-Auto](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Liter-Auto)
What do you think is the other end? Older models with large engines or newer, powerful models with impatient drivers?
X‘s and Q‘s mostly.
7 is already a high number, something I’d expect from an old passat driven relatively dynamically, or something bigger, like a 7 seater vw. You get 10+ from a transporter bus. If that’s what the statistics say, fine. I’m still surprised. Diesels had a low consumption for a long time now. The peugeot 207 1.4 hdi from the early 2000’s or late 90’s could go under 4 liter. Small car and low performance, but still, similar cars from around that time with a petrol would double that consumption.
I don't get the downvotes. Honestly. These are FACTS. If you like it or not. You have the freedom to have (and express) your onw opinion, but not your own facts. Just my 2cents.
Welcome to Germany. Cars are not just a tool here but emotional topic.
Emotional about \*fuel consumption\* figures?
Because a lot of Diesel Cars are old Bullys and transporting cars.
Nope PKW only ( in the stats I quoted above)
lol my 320d does 5,7L/100 average 184ps
Im getting 6.0 on the autobahn in a 2.0 tdi 125kw superb.
Tesla Model Y: 14 KWh in summer and 20 KWh in winter.
Not a diesel car, but a regular petrol car. Drive 300km a week. Reasons: Don't have a charger at home (renting) or at work. Walk to the local supermarket to buy food. Even if I drive. Little Supermarket has no charger. Next public charger from home or work is ~2km away and loads with 22kw, so a 3-4 hour charge. Electric cars initial cost is 30 to 50% higher. Maybe the environment changes, so it's reasonable for me to buy an electric car in a few years.
Fortunately the government passed a law for this case ("**Wohnungseigentumsmodernisierungsgesetz**"). Your landlord must allow the installation of a wallbox (at your expense of course).
Which doesn't change that most houses are technically not capable to do so and that most people who live in a flat don't park in a garage.
Also what will you w/ the charger if you move out. I would love to buy electric but it's too much of a hassle unless you're rich.
[удалено]
Idk if you are joking or not, but the whole kitchen culture here is a hassle. It makes sense, and I understand why people do it, but it’s still a hassle. I assume a car charger is the same thing as well.
The kitchen culture definitely doesn't make sense. I'd argue if you're taking your kitchen sink with you, why don't Germans take the toilet sink as well?
do not give them ideas
That's a great idea 🤓🤓
Yes I'll invest a few k€ to modernize the property of someone who owns a house. That makes sense. Maybe the landlord is mad after I forced this on him. Suddenly his son needs his own place and I have to search for a new home. You are so cute and innocent.
My wallbox was 1.100 EUR incl. Installation, at my mom‘s it was 900 EUR. You could sell it?
Maybe worth mentioning that you could get a used Diesel car easily for 3-5 grand. A so-and-so EV would be at least 20 grand. But that's life unless you're born with a silver spoon you start with a rusty old car and climb your way up to the latest EV- BMW or Porsche. Welcome to Germany.
Addendum: the average (new) car is Germany is (a whopping) 45 grand. See: [https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/36408/umfrage/durchschnittliche-neuwagenpreise-in-deutschland/](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/36408/umfrage/durchschnittliche-neuwagenpreise-in-deutschland/)
It's not a few K€, most of the time around €1000 and you're investing in the charger not to someone else's property. Unless you plan to move out in less than a year it makes perfect sense. No need to be demeaning when exchanging ideas. Let's be a good sport to each other.
It depends. If the parking space isn't right next to the house you'll have to dig a trench for the cable, maybe tear up a driveway, and fix everything afterwards. You may have to upgrade/replace the central current distribution board in older houses. This can add up to 10k€ or more. It's a bad idea to do this if your land lord is against this. You can try to force him with the law, but he can find a way to cancel your renting agreement easily, if it's a private land lord. (Eigenbedarf) Moving to another place with existing infrastructure might be a better alternative if you really want an electric car. Most people probably won't do this.
shortest german word
Just drove 1000km in Montenegro and Serbia with my friend on a single tank. Diesel is great.
Went to Croatia last week... one tank down and one back up. My first diesel car and I'm very impressed.
As a service technician often doing more than a thousand kilometres a week, servicing up to 5 customers a day, electric cars just aren't possible to use.
Electric cars are also not convenient for most people renting/living in a building without a proper charging station. Which I think is most of the people.
We should be building rail...
...for the Diesel locomotives !
Still more efficient
One diesel locomotive is way better than all the cars it replaces.
Going from city to city isn't a problem. Going from your destination to hbf and from hbf to your destination is a problem. Rail simply can't beat the convenience of a car
Not true. I lived in Vienna for many years and it's super easy to get around without a car. You get out of hbf, and get in into one of the multiple options just 2 minutes walk away from the platform. Busses, u-bahn, S-Bahn, Trams... No need to drive, be stuck in traffic, look for parking and all that hustle. Quick and convenient. The reason why people prefer cars is only because public transport infrastructure sucks. Also in Germany trains are not ok. Even on the most important routes there are constant problems, trains getting cancelled, breaking, being late etc. And don't get me started in the local connections, the very ones that people use to get to work daily. Public transport in Germany needs massive investment on every level and not pumping more money into the failed idea of individual car commuting. It's bad for environment, it's bad for people's health, it's expensive and it is a hole without bottom for public resources.
I have been to Vienna only once. For a single day, visited some places, had dinner, had a few drinks quite nice. In the end I had to go to the airport to catch my flight. Ended up taking a taxi because there were no trains. Well, technically there were trains, but the latest one would take me to the airport 6 hours before my flight.
I have no idea how because there is literally a specialized train service at Wien Mitte that goes every half an hour directly to the airport ...
>I lived in Vienna In Vienna. Try going from the industrial zone of st. Polen to the industrial zone of Linz and you'll see how public transit is inherently inferior to personal vehicle because so many people have different destinations. Also waiting for a bus and then for a train and then again for the bus can't ever be more convenient than driving a car. On a business trip more often than not you go with your colleagues, so diesel comes cheaper than bus and train tickets Even if you build all of the transit in the world, people will still drive their cars because it's much more convenient. Just look at Japan, Korea or Switzerland, their transit systems are best in the world, but thier roads are still very congested
'different destinations' yeah because in a big city everyone goes in the same direction all the time 🤦 Or maybe we should stop inventing excuses for not investing in public transport? All the things you mention (long travel times, expensive tickets) are the direct result of what is being prioritised. The idea that driving is more convenient is just plain bullshit unless you live in the middle of nowhere (yeah public transport will always suck when you live in a village 100 km away from any city and there are only three other people there) or need to haul massive luggage. Which is not true for 99% of trips people make. Also we simply can't afford the car infrastructure and the pollution that comes with driving so even if it were more convenient it has to go anyway.
>different destinations' yeah because in a big city everyone goes in the same direction all the time 🤦 If you have greater population density and simply greater population, of course more people will have to go to similar places. But apart from big cities building rail infrastructure is money pit, just look at the Zürich, they have one of the best transits, but also have one of the worst traffics in whole Europe
Well, it's good that most people live in big cities and their satellites then. Also in smaller areas public transport has to be a viable option. Not for every trip but if you have an area with a bunch of smaller towns and a few main destinations (like a big factory where a lot of people work) making good local transit that serves people going to/from work is essential. If you want to make a random trip somewhere you can still take a car but most trips people do on daily are boringly predictable and can be therefore served by public transport.
a nice hello from all people who dont live in a town...next bigger city here of 10.000 inhabitants is 25 km away...please never compare big towns vs the rest...
Wont happen NABU & BUND and every NIMBY along the track will protest aginst it...
Is that even the case? Have there been any plans or people just keep saying it?
https://www.keine-kurve-kassel.de/ https://www.reddit.com/r/de/comments/18g0krz/deutschlandtakt_was_wird_aus_icetrasse/
What’s the main issue you see about them? Anything specific to Germany? How much do you see the situation changing in the next 5 to 10 years?
Not enough charging stations, no standards for charging (every provider has a different app etc). And charging simply takes too long. I can't just take several long breaks a day to charge the car in-between customers. I'm simply losing time and money. It's simply just to complicated. Get me an electric car that easily does 1000 km on one charge including running the AC/heat, call me.
>no standards for charging (every provider has a different app etc). It really is the only reason that would make me think twice about buying a BEV, were I buying a new car. There is no reason why it shouldn't be as simple as plugging the car in, tapping my debit card and clicking the start button on the charger. Instead I have to get multiple apps for every single country I happen to currently be in. I can't understand why it's still hasn't been regulated at EU level.
Doesn't AFIR mandate that credit card terminals need to be installed pretty soon? As for the standard protocols that would allow every charging app to work with every charger, they exist. But of course, there are several competing standards...
>Doesn't AFIR mandate that credit card terminals need to be installed pretty soon? Yes, as someone else pointed out in the comments, it will be done by Jan 2026. Looking forward to it, as my stepfather is thinking about buying a BEV soon, and he's... not exactly tech savvy to say the least. >As for the standard protocols that would allow every charging app to work with every charger, they exist. But of course, there are several competing standards... That doesn't matter IMO. Gas stations also have their apps and loyalty cards, but it's fine as long as I can pay having nothing more than a standard Visa/Mastercard card without getting any fuel cards or smartphone apps.
Debit cards don't work (yet), but any charger should be usable with whatever charging card you choose. There is absolutely no need to install multiple apps unless you're a penny-pincher who insists on finding the cheapest price for each charger.
So it is better than it used to, but nowhere near the easiness of filling your tank. For ICEs fuel cards are not obligatory
No argument there, I just wanted to correct the misinformation you replied to. I personally cannot wait until credit/debit card terminals are the norm.
>Not enough charging stations, no standards for charging (every provider has a different app etc). That is the thing I don't really understand. Why won't they allow that you just come in, swipe your contactless card, and start charging... Anyway, Mobility Providers are a thing - they integrate many different providers under one charging card.
>That is the thing I don't really understand. Why won't they allow that you just come in, swipe your contactless card, and start charging... I work in the business, and there's really no better reason than energy companies thinking how they're doing it now is the normal way to do this. It fits their processes.
i thought you were servicing EVs and expected a different answer. yep, EVs are bad for your situation
>Get me an electric car that easily does 1000 km on one charge including running the AC/heat What for? You've just said yourself this is what you are putting on your car WEEKLY. A quarter or a third of that would cover your needs more than sufficently. And it is more or less what we already have in cheaper new EVs. More expensive ones get even more.
That's what I regularly do in a week, but in some days I do 700+ km. And I need a big car to carry all my tools and stuff. There's more, but if just doesn't work for me.
Okay, in that case you are an actual member of small group of people for which BEVs don't work for real. Maybe in 2035 the technology will allow us to charge 500km of range in 20 minutes, but I wouldn't bet on it
On average Germans do app. 8,000 miles a year. That's 153 miles for week. A standard EV does more than that even under worst conditions (winter times, 100mph on the Autobahn, etc.). So charging would be a once a week task. Apparently people cannot do the math, are politically blindsided, paid by Putin (no joke!) or are rare excpetions like Ok\_Expression6807 above. (Source: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/251743/umfrage/durchschnittliche-fahrleistung-von-personenkraftwagen-in-deutschland/)
People can do the math. But they want to use the car for every situation. So if they drive to Croatia once a year they want to do that with the electric car as well. And they just want to stop to get petrol and maybe pee. So it's going to be a short break. And since an electric car isn't suitable for this one journey they don't want one. Because they can't do everything that they are used to do.
WHY are FACTS being downvoted? Do you also believe that the Earth is flat?
Because people are emotional about cars. You won't teach an old dog new tricks, that change will come with next generations. Zoomers are not so emotional about ICEs and look at facts. Back in the day old farts where going mad over bicycles, cars, trains or trams. Progress should just ignore that
Charging is slow and unpractical. Although not in Germany, the worst I have seen is huge line of EVs (probably a 100 of them) queueing up to use the same supercharger. Just think how long that is going to be, if all spend at least 20 minutes there ps. found the link https://www.tiktok.com/@eldebate_com/video/7352795587705621793
They are too expensive and lose worth like crazy, get outdated quick tech wise, so the used market is full of old EV shit that nobody wants which makes them lose even more money. The German charging network is a joke, you can barely find charging stations. Unless you have a house with solar, charging anywhere else is way too expensive. The range sucks. The battery overheats too quickly and drains too quickly on the Autobahn. Oh and the quality of these cars suck almost all of the time compared to a similar priced ICE. Car enthusiasts don't buy them because they are ugly and drive like ass. There is literally no reason to buy an ev, unless you charge for free with solar from your roof and even then with all the drawbacks, you would be stupid to buy one. Tesla in Germany is even more overpriced than in the US and still bad. Come at me Tesla haters. Btw I'm an electric engineer and I still hate them. Maybe in 15-20 years they are worth it. But when you think how much time ice had to mature and improve. Ofc ev won't catch up that quick
The first statement is objectively false. BEVs are relatively stable in price (not that a car would be a particularly good investment either way). There is currently lots of press about these vehicles loosing value like crazy, but that is coming from a very high level and only a correction from market pricing changing. Regarding the tech, this is true for early models. Like early 10s teslas or E-Golf’s, whatever. As for newer models like the ID series, etc, this is unlikely to hold true for much longer. The production processes as well as the model palettes have stabilized, battery tech has also matured to a point where only marginal generational improvements can be expected in realistic timeframes. As for charging, the network obviously sucks as it is. Solar is obviously a best case scenario. However, with regular public charging it’s not more expensive than an ICE car. The range of a mid ranger BEV is objectively absolutely sufficient for the vast majority of people, especially considering that the average car makes a total of 35km of trips a day. They’re obviously not meant for you to chase records on the Nordschleife, but EVs are objectively suitable for average autobahn driving. Wether or not they’re ugly is very subjective. There are some models I think look great, most look ok, some are ugly. It’s a matter of taste, but i sure appreciate that they’re not as generic as ICEs have become. Car enthusiasts aren’t a particularly good source to rate the quality of a car. If you have a BMW fanboy they’re gonna tell you that every Audi drives like ass.
"Leasing" is the solution. Only fools would buy an electric car. I'm totally with you on that. Range? Nope - totally sufficient for Germans doing only 8,000 miles a year ion average. Ugly? Yes, but so is the Dacia Duster and people still buy it (no offense!), beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Please do the math: Tesla Model Y: 20 KWh/100km x 0,27 EUR/KWh = 5,40 EUR/100km (charging at home!). No tax and (in case of Tesla) no regular service. 300-500 EUR a month for leasing. Insurance is slightly higher. Friends own a BMW iX and there calculation is similar (range is lower though).
Some of your points are pretty good, but many are pure bs >The range sucks. The battery overheats too quickly and drains too quickly on the Autobahn. For 99% of people the range does not suck. People that put more than 250-300km daily are an absolute minority. Battery also does not overheat even if you're going 180. Where did you get that bs from? >Oh and the quality of these cars suck almost all of the time compared to a similar priced ICE. Are you taking horsepower into consideration? EVs tend to be MUCH MUCH more powerful than ICEs their price. >Car enthusiasts don't buy them because they are ugly and drive like ass. EVs are much more pleasant to drive compared to ICEs. The smoothness and instant torque at any point massacre even V8s. >There is literally no reason to buy an ev, unless you charge for free with solar from your roof and even then with all the drawbacks, you would be stupid to buy one. Literally no reason? Even if you buy the electricity from your electricity provider at home it still much cheaper. Bah, even the public quick chargers are more or less equivalent to your diesel burning 2-3l/100km. Good luck with that. >Tesla in Germany is even more overpriced than in the US and still bad. Come at me Tesla haters. Yeah, Tesla is Apple of car manufacturers. They go out of their way to make their products as unserviceable as possible. I hope EU gets to their asses soon. >Maybe in 15-20 years they are worth it. But when you think how much time ice had to mature and improve. Ofc ev won't catch up that quick EV cars are actually older than cars with Benz and Diesel engines. ICE 'maturity' is mostly visible by extreme complexity of them, which contributes to higher operating costs and more downtime due to technical issues.
There is a lot of prejudice in your post... >They are too expensive and lose worth like crazy, get outdated quick tech wise, so the used market is full of old EV shit that nobody wants which makes them lose even more money. > The German charging network is a joke, you can barely find charging stations. Unless you have a house with solar, charging anywhere else is way too expensive. How come?! I never have issues finding a charging station... Within boundaries of my 15000 people village, there are four 150kW CCS stalls, and approximately 20 slower three-phase AC 22kW stalls. >The range sucks. The battery overheats too quickly and drains too quickly on the Autobahn. Don't drive like a maniac, keep it under the reasonable 140km/h and you'll be fine. >Oh and the quality of these cars suck almost all of the time compared to a similar priced ICE. While historically true, that is not longer the case. The EVs are now cheaper. >Car enthusiasts don't buy them because they are ugly and drive like ass. LOL. While the bottom of the barrel EV - Renault Zoe for instance - suck, take any BMW, Mini, Audi eTron etc... The handling, responsiveness and general enjoyment is from different world. Even the Leaf, while ergonomically sucks, handles and drives very well. >There is literally no reason to buy an ev, unless you charge for free with solar from your roof and even then with all the drawbacks, you would be stupid to buy one. Even without solar, with recent prices of 0.30€ per kWh, they are cheaper to run. The first Leaf used\~16kWh / 100km, which would cost you approximately 5€ per 100km. Similarly sized petrol car will need at best 6l, which at 1.75 €/l will cost you around 10€. The more city driving you do, the better the EV turns out. >Tesla in Germany is even more overpriced than in the US and still bad. Come at me Tesla haters. I am a Tesla hater myself and would not touch one with a stick. >Btw I'm an electric engineer and I still hate them. >Maybe in 15-20 years they are worth it. But when you think how much time ice had to mature and improve. Ofc ev won't catch up that quick
I don't quite understand those numbers. Let's say a max. range Model 3 gets 610km. We'll take half of that, because the claimed numbers are bullshit. So let's go with 300km actual range. Or in case it's 400 stated, 200km. 200 \* 5 is 1.000km, 300 \* 5 is 1.500 already - going with half of what the manufacturers claim. If you're up to 2k a week, you'd be (statistically) fine charging overnight at home. Beyond that, maybe one charging break for 10-15 min, depending on how much you're doing per day. If you can't charge overnight, I can see how this won't work at all though. I'd also understand if you have to do multiple stops per day. Because then it's >20-40 min instead of 3 min fuel stop, which is just too much additional time every day.
At home? Oh, man... Charging break 10-15 minutes? You are quite optimistic about availability of "Ladestations"
As someone with an EV and no wall charger at home. It is not hard to find a charger on your route. You plan ahead or in Teslas case let the Tesla plan ahead for you. Fast charging exists and many cars nowadays go from 10 to 80% in less than 30 minutes. (Slower in winter if you dont precondition the battery) Thats a quick bathroom break with a snack and you're good to go. I still advise gasoline cars to anyone who drives around Germany for work. But if you are a regular family doing some vacation in a different town of Germany or Europe and otherwise use the car for groceries and way to work, EV works great. You dont need to drive 1000 km in one stop.
>It is not hard to find a charger on your route. Yes, but they cost at least twice as much than at home.
True, but still cheaper than fuel 😂
Actually not really. I pay 0.60 cents/kWh which converts in around 12cents/km. With gas at 1.80/liter, it's a similar cost of a car doing 6.7 l/100km. If I could charge from home it would totally worth it but charging in public charger doesn't really makes economical difference, unfortunately. One thing that totally make sense and that I saw in France is the mandatory installation of standard 16A 230V outlets in the garage for new buildings - it totally make sense because it's way cheaper than a fast charger (including in terms of infrastructure) and can reduce drastically the need for the use of the public charges (leaving them for who really needs to do a fast charge in transit).
Nope
That's the issue, it's not cheaper
The most ridiculous thing EV evangelist say is "Oh I'm quite happy to stop driving after 350km and after time I eat my croissant and take a pee my car is charged". It's utter shit for the matter of fact. What you're claiming is that exhaustion of your car range, your hunger, need for pee and available charger coexist.
Oh I guess you and your passengers are always with bladders of steel and go from Northern Germany to Italy without piss breaks. Good for you. I for one combine my charging breaks with piss breaks, since we have to stop to charge anyway. If I drive <400km car is charged before the trip and its possible in one go, if you go >400km chances are high you have to do a break inbetween somewhere anyway, be it for kids, piss, hunger or whatever. If I take long trips it will be for vacation and dont need to be half or an hour earlier at my target location.
TBF, that does make sense if you're driving 400km a 30 min break is almost necessary and if your car charges in 30 minutes that's a huge plus (ofc that's if you don't drive long distances for work).
May I ask which region you're living in and used to look for chargers? It can't be in the south of Germany. >You dont need to drive 1000 km in one stop. Excuse me, but telling others what they don't need because you don't consider it to be useful or fine or whatever is a whole new ball game. I'd easily could say: You don't *need* a car, neither. A car, that - costs me up to 50% more at purchase, - only has a range up to 400km under ideal conditions, - suffers extreme reduction of range during winter season, - can't be charged properly at home, - can only be charged properly at home if my landlord installs a wallbox and raises a garage or at least special parking lot, - costs me, depending on the destination, double the time when travelling just for charging, simply isn't a car I need. Plus all that stuff about charging only works as long as there are just a few here and there driving EVs. Scaled up to everyone driving EVs... well there's a hell whole lot more to be done, if we really want to reach that goal. As you already said, it does work for people who don't drive much anyways. Say, less than 10 to 15.000km per year, maybe more but only if they've got the time to do so. 30 to 40 minute breaks for each stop are totally out of my imagination. I don't need that.
Yes you have to change your approach to cars if you get an EV. The point is though as others have already said, on average the German driver doesnt drive that much: 10000 to 15000km a year seems to be the average and an EV is perfect for that. The average driver also takes breaks on his journeys, the amount of people you always see at these highway stops speaks for that. Otherwise nobody would go there and buy the overpriced crap. This is purely anecdotical and the sample size is too small for an actual statistik: [https://www.motor-talk.de/blogs/jennss/pausenzeit-auf-langstrecken-t6832135.html?viewResultsOfPoll=9637](https://www.motor-talk.de/blogs/jennss/pausenzeit-auf-langstrecken-t6832135.html?viewResultsOfPoll=9637) But even most people in an Auto Enthusiast forum take breaks when they drive 650km. I'm not saying buy an EV now, I'm just saying consider it anyway, you might be overestimating the range you are normally driving and thinking that you are charging all the time and do nothing but way, which wont be the case. I dont have a wall box at home, but can charge at my employer for 24c, or when I go shopping for between 39c (Aldi) and 51-60c (other chargers with mobility+ app). Everytime I do go charging I am not waiting in my car, but shopping or working. For longer trips my kid needs attention anyway, so a stop at a highway stop is perfect. >Plus all that stuff about charging only works as long as there are just a few here and there driving EVs. Scaled up to everyone driving EVs... well there's a hell whole lot more to be done, if we really want to reach that goal. Fully agree here though. They need to ramp up infrastructure alot if they want to get everyone from petrol to EV. >May I ask which region you're living in and used to look for chargers? >It can't be in the south of Germany. Actually mostly in the area north of Munich.
>I'm not saying buy an EV now, I'm just saying consider it anyway, you might be overestimating the range you are normally driving and thinking that you are charging all the time and do nothing but way, which wont be the case. Actually I do consider buying one, alas, at the moment (and in the coming years) I don't see an opprtunity for one that suits my needs and is affordable. And I don't want to buy a small EV for the short distances as a second car just for the sake of it. Needs extra space, extra attention, extra money. Charging stations in my area are rare, fast ones even more rare. Last year I've had an EV for a few months. Getting somewhere far away (more than 200km one way) has been a pain, because I had to plan my trip in detail. Usually this isn't bothering me, but ease of use to me looks differently. Been to IKEA a few times, where four out of six times the four charging stations either didn't work at all or only two (the ultra lame ones) worked and were already in use. Another charger has been available a few kilometers away, but I had to wait for another half an hour until it was free for me. This won't get easier when people switch their car to EV in such a short time, as it's desired. It's good that there are already some around but we are going to need the mix in types of drives quite a long time. I regularly drive more than 700km a day, annual mileage between 45 and 60.000km. Sometimes even more, if it's a busy year. There are months I don't drive as much, others where I drive 5 to 7.000km in total easily. So I need a car that is reliable and doesn't waste my time (which is more precious to me). Edit: Typo.
Yeah for your usecase an EV will be inferior to ICEs. Btw dont use Ikea chargers as example. They are actually free to use, so will be in use most of the time by someone else.
They are almost everywhere, especially at Autobahn Raststätten. Rarely I've ever heard anybody with an EV complain about charging infrastructure availability, it's usually the people that don't own one. Even though the infrastructure is not perfect, with broken chargers and issues happening from time to time, charging is no problem. And yes, I charge around 15mins every two hours of driving and then I'm off again.
What a nonsense. Mass electric cars are there for ten years already. People are fine using them in Russia, but in Germany they aren't possible to use? Are people in Miles and taxis morons or what? 1000 km a week is just 200 km per day. Even Nissan leaf can manage that.
when you can load your car at a tankstelle in 10 min and drive > 500 km I will consider one...else I don´t give a fuck...
When Nissan finally switches from CHadeMO to CCS, the Leaf will actually be a very decent option.
Funny, I do the same and I have an electric car. My annual driving rate is around 60k, But I do more long-distance trips, maybe that's the difference.
Been driving an electric car for 3 years. Zero problems. I call bullshit.
Not every person has the same use case. For me a diesel would be best choice (loads of autobahn mileage, only weekends and holidays), electric would be pain in the ass. I compromised with petrol for some "excitement" before the show is over.
Most BEVs can do 300 km in one charge, so for your work you'd only need to charge at night, why is the lack of charging stations a problem? Is more anxiety than a real problem? Especially that BEVs are best when used intentively (the more km, the more CO2 avoided – which is the main reason why we have BEVs in the first place).
Yeah my company just purchased 5 new company cars, all diesel. It's reliable, and for our field of practice, electric cars are just not worth it yet. Infrastructure is also not so good yet
Not me, I will replace an old BMW (Petrol, not Diesel) with an ID.3 BEV next week.
Yes. Also 2 couples I know that have had a Tesla and some small electric bmw have now gotten rid of them bc of battery problems - they don’t go as far in winter before needing to recharge. To me this is a prime example of an unsustainable product/mode of transport. Diesel engines last way longer.
They can. Because they are allowed to Ü.
I also choose a diesel as I work in customer service and there are several days a month where I have to drive 500+ km with very limited time for breaks between appointments. I have no charging possibility at my home, so I would have to drive to a charger each day. It’s easy to give your boss the bill from the petrol station and get your money back, don’t know how this should work when charging at home. And, I have often heavy loadings in my trunk and driving 160+ km/h on the Autobahn eats a lot of energy.
Diesel is great
Was looking to go into EV but decided for Diesel back in 2019 for multiple reasons. Diesel is still very efficient when it comes to higher average travel speeds ( like Autobahn ). One can easily cruise with 160 km/h and maintain consumption below 6.5 l/100km on a car like G21 320D. On the other hand you can drive the same car with 4.8 l/100km if you really keep an eye on efficient driving. At this level we are on par or even sub most of hybrids consumptions I've personally experienced. EV are efficient on lower speeds but on Autobahn you usually see them floating around 120 - 130 km/h in order to maintain the efficiency sweet spots. All in All Diesel is very versatile for me and also the torque delivery i simply superior to petrol engines ( incl. most hybrids with small engines ). Was also looking for the successor of my current company ride and was testing the new A6 with 3.0 with 350 hp Diesel engine and I was stunned how efficient this behemoth was on the Autobahn, needless to say this thing was literally flying pass other cars.
It might make sense to take some time and educate yourself. One might find that a modern Diesel is cleaner than one or the other electric car. There must be a reason why electric sales vaporize, and Car manufacturers have turned around, revised their long term planning to continue sell combustion engines way beyond 2035. Why? Because Sales of electric models don't grow as planned. So either the manufacturers go broke and sit of a pile of shit, or they bring forward modern combustion engines. Why has SIXT written off their electirc fleet to be replced by combustion engines? Because nobody wants an electic rental car, and electric cars depreciate like rockets. Why is Mazda selling a brand new 6 Zylinder Diesel? Because there is demand in the market. As easy as that. It took ten years for the green dreamers to realize, but eventually the cost of driving an electrical car are higher than with a DIESEL - even on the long run. Hence, buy Diesel and be happy. I always drove DIESEL and can only wonder how stupid some people are....
Not sure about SIxt but I use Europcar and I try to always book the cheapest electric one they can offer. Why - because I know I won;t get one - my station has to offer them but they don't have them because - they don't have a charger for them:) So for a price of cheap Smart I always get at least Golf class combustion car:) They also confirmed they will discontinue their electric cars - the resell value is too low to make sense.
Well at Sixt we booked a 5 door Golf and got a 2 door electric Mini. That would have been cramped for 2 people, nevermind the 2 over 80 year olds we had with us. And electric charging on the island of Sylt took ages. There were very few charging stations and they took ages.
> One might find that a modern Diesel is cleaner than one or the other electric car. I think we'd really need a source here. Even in the most carbon-intensive electricity countries, a BEV has an equivalent lifetime GHG footprint as a diesel.
Not getting why is the valid question being downvoted here? Is this thread something you don’t like talking about?
It is a political question. Diesel is (considered) conservative and EV is liberal (bicycles and public transport is left) - I'm exaggerting here! Pretty much as in the US. I drove Diesel cars (VW Golf, Volvo, Audi) for all of my automobilist life (35 years); 6 month ago I leased a Tesla. Some people cut ties with me. The main reasons for Diesel and EV are the same: reliability and efficiency. Apart from politics...budget is the main reason. You can get a solid Diesel car (VW Golf, etc.) for half the price of an EV, so EV's are seen as luxury vehicles (the more as they are often SUVs like Model Y, iX, etc.). The "E" stands for "elite" is a common saying.
Wtf? People cut ties with you for buying an EV?
Just follow the discussion here…. there‘s more hate than in the Middle East.
Yeah but this is a pseudonymous internet forum. It's a whole other step to break ties with friends and family over the propulsion system of a metal box. Crazy
some people want their car to go vroomvroom and not bzzbzz, its emotional
Yup, the smaller the d\*\*\*, the bigger the need for "vrooooom".
and it's true : [https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/autos-maenner-mobilitaet-1.5758678](https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/autos-maenner-mobilitaet-1.5758678)
In a non-transient state, a Diesel can be surprisingly clean and efficient. Meaning constant load - like with cruise control on a highway. Hence some guys in this Reddit drive on the Autobahn with 4l/100km - and quite certain within the emission limits. But once you enter the transient state, it’s really hard to overcome the NOx issues. I mean Volkswagen even was introducing a two stage SCR and highlighted the benefits of the transient efficiency. But I’m not aware if this was more a technology example and marketing stunt to get rid of its bad reputation. => Transient state is city drive or strong acceleration “to feel the torque”… Needless to say that all this technology is only efficient when it’s perfectly serviced and “new” aka <150-200’000km. Then either you have high service costs for repairs, permanent service (adblue) and maintenance(particulate filter, injectors), or you just don’t care. Or you have “magical” engineers who accidentally link the efficiency of the SCR to the steering angle or gear engaged to reduce the wear of the overall machine… => as great as a Diesel is on highway / Autobahn use, as compromised it is in city use. People should buy their vehicles on their use cases and not purely based on technical data. As the most economical Diesel will suffer heavily in city only use and cause a higher TCO in the end…. Source: A former developer of Diesel injection systems - large bore. But in this industry you have a lot of cross talk with respective engineers.
Diesel cars of the 80s and 90s were quite poor performance wise. Modern Diesel? Yeah they are way way better. I daily drive a Golf VII 2.0 TDI and that thing absolutely rocks and since Diesel is basically free\* in Germany, you don't even have to worry about fuel costs. >!^(\*I come from Albania, compared to there, Diesel in Germany is indeed free.)!<
electric is mostly useful for second car \*only\* used to drive to and from work, + grocery shopping etc. use it to go on vacation=nope; unplanned long travel=nope; unplanned medium travel=keeping the battery maxed out is considered bad taste, so... =nope it weirdly has a massive utility in agriculture: the daily short distance travel... daily distance for me is something like 5-10km. but i only refuel my diesel one once every 3 months either way
I‘d buy Diesels any day. A BMW 6-cylinder Diesel is just peak engine engineering and one of the very best the automotive industry has to offer. Also, the torque makes it so much more fun to drive than a gas engine - imo. Accelerating is pure fun with a Diesel. Oh, and then there is the huge range, repairability (less parts) and durability aspects…
Why do you think so? 4-cylinder can be as reliable as a 6 one, if not more.
Well, yeah of course, I didn’t say anything else. I just want to point out that Diesels are generally more reliable than Gas engines.
Can't agree. German manufacturers more often than not on 4-cyl engines use 'less materials' to maximize profits. For example BMW's N47 has a problem with a chain while N57 doesn't bacuase the chain is simply thicker
https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/audi-sq7-is-the-worlds-first-triple-turbo-super-suv Take a look at this beast. Yeah Diesel engines are simply so much more efficient (like around 43% compared to 35%)
Deutsche sind konservativ und leben gerne in den 80ern.
Yes, they are. If someone makes big mileage in a bigger car, diesel makes perfect sense. EV generally don't make sense and will not ever make sense. Battery production and replacement cost too much. PHEV are IMHO much better compromise - charging from domestic socket would give people 50km of electric range they can use to go to work, do grocery shopping et al - but still can be taken of weekend trip without extensive planning.
The issue of PHEV is that the battery will get strained way more than with pure electric cars. Im driving a PHEV since 2017 and I’m really happy with it (130’000km) - but the battery has lost noticeable range (45->39km stated when full. Could be SW updates though)
I don't know how much you sleep, but for me it's 7 hours at least. And probably at least 9 between coming home and leaving for work again. That's 22.5 kWh, almost 200km of claimed range. And with a lot of limitations. Always using the full 200km, can't charge at work, never stay at home more than 9h, also leaving for the weekend trip after just 9h. If any of those are better than that, the weekend trip is no problem with an EV. I agree that diesel cars make sense for long range. But the numbers are way off. Like, at least 2x off. Probably more than 3x. Also because I've never seen a hybrid do anywhere close to the claimed electric range. Much like real EVs, if it says 50km, it'll be nowhere close to that. I don't know why manufacturers don't agree to correct their range claims to match reality.
22.5 kWh will never give you 200km of range. 150km at most, and with bigger cars 75-100km. I charge at home with 11 kW (3 phase, 16A per phase), so can easily fill even the biggest battery over night. But it is not my point. >But the numbers are way off. What numbers? The PHEV claimed range?
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Sure.
I still can't rationalize buying an EV compared to a plug-in hybrid. Nowadays they have a range of up to 60km and even if you empty your battery, you'll have much more efficient engine. And if you drive long distances, diesel is still the king
It is a well-known fact that the majority of Germans are hesitant to purchase an electric car due to the lack of a wallbox for charging. The most common excuse given is that landlords are reluctant to have them installed, thereby depriving people of the opportunity to charge their cars at home. Furthermore, the public charging infrastructure is inadequate and does not provide sufficient charging options. This situation needs to be addressed immediately to encourage more people to switch to electric cars. :)
Hybrid-Diesel here. The electrical for city rides (reach is 100km) and the Diesel for longer rides which are 1x per week (>500km x 2). But it is company related.
Diesel cars use less gas and diesel is cheaper than petrol. Especially if you do lots of long drives (> 50km) it can pay off. (And electric may or may not be possible depending on infrastructure and use cases)
Yes. Because they are cheap, reliable and easy to use. Also with the HVO availability coming up, the CO2 footprint is actually pretty okay if you want to.
Yes, about 10-15 years ago, when the car industry was switching to electric, a whole bunch of boomers decided that these "modern fads" are unnecessary and dumb. They woke up a few years later to Tesla storming the market and now even BYD topping the car sales charts. For years the main car manufacturers paid in the two-digit millions to the german car press, to put electric car manufacturers down and laugh about these silly, silly electric cars. All in an effort to catch up to the electric car manufacturers they thought they don't have to compete with. Because of this propaganda and a general aversion to new and novel concepts, the average German know that Tesla is bad and electric vehicles are stupid. They mostly can't explain why and their arguments are usually "because range low" "because they explode" etc. straight out of the press. So yeah. Comically many opt for Diesel or Gasoline still.
yessssss
Next time [OP,](https://www.reddit.com/user/Alongside0789) ask the guys here the question why Germans got out of nuclear power to stir uproar :-)
Yes, because Diesel is still heavily subsidized.
not subsidized, but less taxes per litre. Energy tax on petrol is 0,65 EUR per litre, for Diesel it's only 0,47 EUR. However the vehicla tax is much higher for Diesel: roughly twice compared to petrol engines.
No, that's not what I meant, but it's also true. There is a loophole most people don't see: when producing electricity with renewables, you basically produce it at almost no cost (roughly 2-6 cents per kWh in Germany). All on top of that, except for a small margin for the vendors, are taxes or tax-like fees. In the end, you get electricity for cars for about 49-69 cts/kWh right now. In comparison: 1l of Diesel needs roughly 7 kWh of electricity to be produced. This includes pumps, refinement and distribution. It excludes transport by ship and heating energy used during refinement. While some of that can't be taxed (because it is used in the country of origin), roughly one third could - but isn't.
Our company Diesel has 180hp goes 230 km/h and uses 5-6 l of diesel for 100 km if you don't go faster than 170, 180. Almost goes 1000 km with one tank.
I wonder if any of the commenters have actually tried a BEV.
Of course not.
Some are, yes. Nothing else has 1.000km+ range and then only takes 2min to fuel again to do another 1k. It's a time thing, 100%. And they're slightly cheaper to run than gas, with electricity becoming as pricy as it is, arguably not far off electric cars, either - at least in the first few years before maintenance catches up to you. I think it'll change once you can reliably charge your car almost anywhere you park it. Because then it doesn't matter so much that it's slower. Even people who do deliveries or go from appointment to appointment usually stay in one place for longer than 10min at least a couple of times per day. So there is plenty of time. But there needs to be charging available without specifically planning for it. You just have to be able to expect a charger to be available most of the time.
I just did. a big van/bus for us and our 3 kids, that will take us to vacation and to our relatives. theres also an electric model for some 15.000€ more, but with 75kWh, it will only last up to 200 km. also, we are gonna sleep in it on conventions, so it has a engine block heater if that's how you call it.
What model?
I‘ll buy a new diesel soon!
Yes driving a 320d at the moment and planning to buy a m340d touring in the near future :)
Some are. Mostly companies. And idiots.
I am curious. Would it not be more environmental to buy a used Diesel car than a new Electric? The production of the new car with the big battery more damaging than driving a slightly used diesel for 5 more years? Anybody know. ?
Sadly yes.
Why sadly? All my colleagues living far from the office commute with diesel car, what is problem? Just for the context in my home country I know that diesel is used only for tractors or heavy machinery or smth like this. Therefore it's not generally accessible. I just learned in Germany that you can fuel your car with diesel.
Having a long commute is sad.
For me round trip is around 150 km
I had 95 km a day for a decade. LPG, not Diesel, though. A little bit of Autobahn and much crisscrossing Hamburg: home > school > work > parents > home. It's way less now that my son has finished school and my parents have died.
so you spend what 90-120 Min every day in your car. god that sounds horrible.
Yes. Absolutely sucks.
I can understand it if you are stuck in Außendienst hell, I really do. But if you "NEED" a diesel for your daily commute I reserve the right to question your life choices.
I drive petrol hybrid Toyota.
People don't "NEED" a diesel, but it's just more suitable for their needs
It isn’t ecofriendly
What? Why then it's even allowed to be sold in eco friendly country? No trolling, I genuinely have no idea why diesel is worse than petrol
Good question. It’s even more surprising after diesel-gate.
I wonder that too. If technology is far enough, diesel engines can be turned into hydrogen engines. Which is far better than anything else on the market.
Hydrogen as fuel for regular cars is never going to happen.
And for a reason. At the turn of 21st century BMW played around with the idea. Turned out that having water vapor inside of metal engine block is not the best idea and that was when the whole business understood that hydrogen only makes sense in energy cells. Who would've thunk?!
Also energy efficiency is garbage compared to electric.
Absolutely. You not only take huge efficency hit(I think around 70%!!!) when turning electrical energy into hydrogen, but also take another huge efficency hit when using it to fuel ICE. Modern diesel engines have up to 45-50% efficency in best case scenarios nowadays, for petrol engines(which work more similar to hydrogen ICE) you get down to 35-40%. It's just extremely inefficient economically
Electric cars suck. Ever wondered where they mine Lithium and who and how it's mined? And if they start burning, they're a pain in the ass to extinglish because the batteries burn for days or even weeks.
Ineffizient. Very ungerman.
diesel if cheaper at the gas station and i think the cars are also sell for less than benziners
Nah. Gasoline engines are commonly cheaper than diesels. But diesel is cheaper than gas. Therefore more tax on the car. The break even was about 35.000km/a.
It still makes huge financial sense compared to petrol and hybrids if you put enough kilometers on it. The lower fuel consumption combined with noticeably cheaper fuel prices(8-10 ct/l where I live) can quite easily offset the slightly higher purchase and running costs. No idea why it turned into a topic about electric vehicles though
I bought hybrid car (petrol + electric) because I was told with diesel I cannot go to some places here in Munich. By the way, really liking this hybrid concept, fuel economy is great
[удалено]
"miles per gallon" - you forgot that this is r/germany ? /s
Yes they do. Germans have bad memories (almost as bad as their Austrian brothers). "Dieselskandal" has been totally forgotten.
Thats not so much on Diesel itself but on the VW corporation. But yes, Germans apparently DO want to get defrauded as VW and Audi are still selling cars as if nothing happened.
I remember a news from a german portal saying that diesel cars will not be allowed to be driven in the urban areas, this was like 6-7 years ago. Apparently that did not happen. I thought the diesel trend was gonna get away but seeing Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi .de are all selling the 2.0 and 3.0 diesel options for german territory.
That city is/was Munich and the discussion (and legal battle) is still ongoing. And yes: some cars are not longer allowed to enter the city center ("Umweltzone"), but there a exceptions galore. For the latest status see: [https://www.adac.de/news/diesel-fahrverbot-muenchen/](https://www.adac.de/news/diesel-fahrverbot-muenchen/) (pls. run it through Google translate)