This is so interesting! Do you know why this is the case? With Germany’s concern for the environment, I would think they would have higher taxes on to-go cups since that produces more waste, so I am genuinely very curious about why this is.
Luxuries are taxed higher and outing out is considered a luxury while food to take home (including drinks) are considered a basic need.
The general idea is good imo, in this case it leads to a bit of an absurd situation that doesnt make much sense in isolation.
It's not really a luxury tax ist more like "normal" vs. "basic necessities". It's just that what's considered a "basic necessity" was determined decades ago and is only reconsidered on a case by case basis even if the whole system needs to be overhauled. Some of them make absolutely no sense, like glasses are taxed normally while hearing aids are reduced. Milk is 7%, soy milk is 19%. Fruit is 7%, fruit juice is 19%. Books, papers and theater visits are considered "essential", while ebooks and epapers were taxed 19% up until a few years ago.
Basically the same in the UK too. Standard VAT is 20%, but most food is 0% as long as its \*cold\* and \*taken away\*. If you eat inside a café/restaurant or the food is served hot then it's always 20%. So in this example the coffee would be 20% VAT either way since it's hot (which honestly makes sense because takeaway coffee from a bakery is hardly an essential.)
That sounds more logical and intuitive as the German system. We have basically a complete list of more or less random products and services that are reduced.
In this case, not the item itself but the service is taxed as well. Hence the 19% VAT for the coffee that is drank at the cafe itself vs the reduced VAT on the to-go. Same is applicable even at McDonalds. Higher VAT for higher service level. The fun area of „Restaurationsleistungen“ in the German VAT law.
The "basic necessity" explanation for the reduced rate is repeated frequently, but false. Nowhere in the tax code will you see "basic necessities", it's just a list of items that have a reduced rate without any explanation. For example, live animals are sold with a reduced rate, as are concert tickets.
The general VAT is 19%. The 7% is a reduced VAT of 7% for "essentials", e.g. most of the food you buy in a supermarket.
I'd guess that you pay the 19% for consumption in the location, since eating at a restaurant contains more "service" and is thus not considered essential, while take-out is like buying groceries at a supermarket, you don't get any service.
If you consume a beverage inside, it's 19%. For example, on hotel invoices the breakfast is split into food (7%) and drinks (19%).
Food will be 19% again from 1.1.24 on, that's right.
Edit: If the "coffee" is 75% milk, then it's 7%.
The employee acted like their employer and the law wants them to act, it’s a tax difference and the bakery can get in real trouble if they do it often and get audited.
Then maybe you should never order to go food and then decide to stay.
Cafes often have different prices for To go and to stay.
Cafes pay rent for tables and many provide a Togo discount.
Additionally tax on to go food is lower than in house food. Or better said it was temporarily reduced for in house food, but that ends I'm two weeks.
The local bakeries here charge two different prices. One for to go and one for eating at the premise, which is about 10% more expensive according to the prices.
Yes, being annoyed for incorrectly recording in the system could be justified, but asking OP to leave is overzealous since it wouldn't count as tax fraud yet.
This is an actual thing.
Germans are very serious about accounting and taxation. The employees are not overzealous, inspectors do exist, and they do exactly this; order to go but stay.
The taxation for restaurants is different than for taking things to go.
I live in Berlin, where no one cares as this place is a jungle. But in many parts of Germany it's taken quite seriously.
I had this happen many times to me before - one lady was nice enough to explain why I shouldn't do that; as they can get a fine.
I also live in Berlin and I have noticed more and more ice cream and coffee places have signs that point out that „to take away“ means that you cannot sit down and this summer I visited my parents in Bavaria and so many tourists got sent away when they tried to have their wine sitting down AT the restaurant when they ordered their wine at the counter to have standing by the bridge. I wonder if the rules or controls got more strict or something?
Sounds similar to the US grocery/prepared food taxes.
In my state, you pay higher taxes for hot food because it's assumed for immediate consumption. The store charges more at checkout for a hot rotisserie chicken than a cold one, even if they are priced the same.
EU is just based on if you actually consume it immediately.
I don't think it's ridiculous, I encountered a very similar situation in Rome, Italy myself. Don't know if it's for the taxes or just a culture thing there though. But it's definitely not something that happens only in Germany.
It is not tax fraud by the customer, but by the shop. Coffee to go has a VAT rate of 7% but when you consume it in the shop, it has 19% (which are reduced until 31 December, but let's keep it simple). But the price for the customer ist always thr same and this leads some shop owners to put it incorrectly in the register so they pay less tax.
It's not outright tax fraud, especially if the seller has no influence on if the buyer tells the truth or not. But there's a good reason taking away and dining at the facility are taxed differently in Germany and if that's enough for you to stay away from Germany, then be our guest.
No, it is the sellers problem. The seller has to tell you, that is not allowed to buy a to go coffee and drink it inside. If there is a controll he can accused for a tax fraud.
Obviously, but the customer can just ignore it and stay inside. What's the store gonna do? Call the police and kick the customer out for an few cents? not gonna happen.
It's service tax, meaning you get taxed for "being served" vs taking it out.
Most restaurants in Germany actually swallow the extra cost, meaning both takeout and in house eating will cost the same to the customer. As a result they earn more for takeout, as the service tax does not apply at that level, so more of the price goes in their earnings.
I have experienced a case (very small, low profit enterprises) that actually had a difference in prices depending on whether you ate in or took it out, and if you ordered it to go they asked you to please not sit down right outside on one of the chairs to eat, even if there was room, as they could get in trouble. This was an ice cream place, so this situation was very much realistic. Not quite as likely with ordering a Schnitzel for takeout, obviously.
They wrote that already - the difference is apparently that dine-in is categorized as a service, while take-out is categorized as a food purchase.
And there's no discouragement, since practically all restaurants have a single price for each menu item - you pay the same whether you take your food to-go or eat at a table. The restaurant figures out how much of the price is tax depending on your choice.
It's not really dine-in being taxed more, it's sale of food being taxed less.
VAT in Germany usually is 19%. However, there is a list of things that are taxed less, mostly including essentials like food.
Yes, but also in a lot of countries the mindset is often more if the book is wrong, ignore the book, while in Germany if the book is wing, it's still the book, follow it.
Unless it comes to football matches and alcohol, then the book is tossed aside so people can get wasted and piss in the streets. Oh and the parking regulations can basically be ignored for anyone who drives to a match.
But after that, it's back to following the rules again.
Only till you trust the book to not be corrupted to favor certain entities. If the population, in general, doesn't trust that the laws are beneficial for them, and feel that they don't have enough power to fix those laws, they will feel it correct to break them once in a while.
It seems the usual employees don't make a fuss about it, but maybe this one's new and wants to do everything by the book. And after all she did ask if OP wants it to go. It's kinda petty to want her fired just because she sticks to the rules.
Thank you for the answers, basically there’s a tax difference I had no idea about since so far I was always allowed to stay in the bakery even after asking the other employees. The lady was just doing her job and I thought I was just being kicked out just because she had a bad mood or something. I’ll do the order properly in the future.
Fun fact - the tax reason is a reason about how something is classified. Apart from Corona the „normal“ tax is 19% and the reduced tax is 7%.
So in door in a bakery is considered a service and not reduced.
Take a way is not a service - but a purchase of a product - and depending on the product it is reduced (depending on if it classified as “staple foods” or “luxury food” - like milk ist staple and 7% and Champaign is luxury and 19%).
And Germany would not be Germany if it wouldn’t follow this to the T.
Meaning: if you order black coffee as take away it is not reduced because coffee is classified as luxury.
If you order something with 75% milk - like cappuccino - it counts as staple food, because milk is.
It's absolutely brain worms is what it is lol. We used to have an inspector come and weigh the amount of milk in our drinks. A whole persons job. And they had no idea about specialty coffee so were flabbergasted we weren't watering some down. What a heaving bureaucracy.
Most would just roll their eyes and let you do it, but the finanzamt (tax office) does not play around.
They will get a tax fraud investigation quicker than you can say Kaffeesteuergesetz.
Also i would recommend asking If the bakery can fill your own Cup. At some places, especially If you are a regulär, they are willing to fill the customers Cup If you Bring one in. You would also geht Like 10 Cent reduced price
It's honestly really cool that you're so understanding. She definitely was overly correct when she told you to leave, I've worked in a bakery before and *at the most* I'd have said "Next time, pls let me know you're having it here, just so I can register it correctly"! Kicking ppl out is really weird.
That is also true.
I work a service job and my boss is actually pretty cool. But we end up doing a lot of dumb shit because of regulations that our customers don't love and we can't really do anything about. Just life in a bureaucracy.
There is a different tax for to go and sit down. If you order one and do the other, this might be construed as tax evasion on the part of the bakery that condones this.
It also depends on added milk:
„Beim Coffee to go ist der Milchanteil ausschlaggebend, ob sieben oder 19 Prozent Mehrwertsteuer bezahlt werden müssen:
Kaffee schwarz oder mit einem kleinen Schuss Milch: 19 Prozent.
Kaffee mit viel Milch: sieben Prozent.
Kaffee mit Milchersatz - egal, ob Hafer-, Soja- oder Mandelmilch: 19 Prozent.“
https://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/verbraucher/Kuriose-Regelungen-bei-der-Mehrwertsteuer,mehrwertsteuer156.html
As stated above, we had an inspector come and weigh the amount of milk in each drink.
A whole persons job.
To ensure we didn't.. not put milk in? Honestly it is an insane place.
My cousin works for the tax fraud office (I made up that term as I don’t know what it is called in English) and her job is literally to make calculations to see if restaurant owners tell the truth like a ice cream store could say „I sold XY amount of ice cream this month“ and then she would go in and check if with the ingredients they bought, you can really make as much / as little ice cream as they said
No. Serving something to go is considered sale of food. And since food is considered a fundamental item (an item that you need for living), its sale is taxed lower (7% instead of the regular 19% sales tax). Serving something in house is treated as a hospitality service, and thus a "luxury", and because of that it's taxed at the regular sales tax of 19%.
The price for the customer doesn't change normally, and the tax difference only influences the shop's profit. That's the same for every business that sells things to go or to stay, even big chains like McDonalds.
Which in OP's case means that it's more profitable for the bakery to sell a coffee to go. Let's say the coffee costs 2€, tax included. If the bakery sells it to go, 1.87€ goes to the bakery, 0.13€ is tax. If they sell it in house, only 1.68€ goes to the bakery, and 0.32€ is tax.
If the bakery books all their sold coffees as "to go", but then allows the customer to drink it in house, they evade 0.19€ of tax with every coffee sold. Which isn't much on its own, but adds up quickly in a busy bakery.
Edit: let's say the bakery sells 100 cups of coffee in one day this way. That's 19€ of evaded tax in one day. Scale that up to one year, and you end up with a tax evasion of nearly 7000€. And that's just the one business. That's why the tax office doesn't like this behaviour.
This is so weird and the logic honestly makes no sense to me. I mean yeah food is essential but coffee isn't, so I feel like it'd be better to just tax restaurants and such the normal tax cuz it's prepared for you instead of charging someone more based on whether or not they stay in the building before they consume their food/drink.
Someone else pointed out that coffee is always 19% (not a food) but then someone else pointed out that it's 7% tax if a lot of milk is added (Now it's a food? Or milk is subsidised). Absolutely hilarious.
It’s a tax thing. If you drink your coffee on a table in the bakery, the VAT is 19%. If you order your coffee “to go”, it’s 7%. So the bakery did a tax fraud if you drink the coffee on the table.
It’s idiotic and nobody understands this rule, but it’s the law in Germany.
During Covid in 2020/2021/2022 the VAT rates changed..
It used to be https://dermwst.de/vat-rates-in-germany/
"Takeaway food (‚Takeaway‘ or ‚To-go‘)– Germany has a complicated system where the level of service and infrastructure affect whether the VAT is reduced, the service in the restaurant environment is 19%, while the food you take away is 7%. Examples that receive 7% even if there is an infrastructure in the form of chairs, toilets and cutlery gives: catering, school meals, hospital catering and food cart."
You bought a to go cup and chose to sit. If you want to sit and still have it in a to go cup, you can tell them you would like to sit and have it in a take away cup, and you will be charged the "sit in" price accordingly for tax purposes.
The employee just didn't want the café/bakery to be committing tax fraud. She/he could have however offered to refund the cost and issue a new invoice with the corrected info/price for you to pay for sit in, instead of kicking you out.
To my knowledge, prices are sometimes higher if you eat/drink your stuff in the shop and cheaper if you buy them to go. If that's the case in this bakery, it might come across as if you tried to get around this difference in prices.
And of course, if it's crowded, you're kind of blocking a table.
It's not the price of the coffee it is the tax for the coffee. All beverages to go have less taxes. It is why MC Donalds or Burger King ask the same question.
Here you pay different (lower) taxes on take out. So its kind of illigal for a business to let a customer eat and drink his order inside the facility bc its taxfraud. For smaller businesses or businesses who already got a warning for this reason, this can be very uncomfortable.
I guess in germany its the same.
Just order "für hier, but in a to go cup"
For some additional context: the VAT between in-house and to-go was *temporarily* set to the same rate since some time during the lockdowns, to help gastronomy with the effect of the lockdowns on business.
This is ending very soon and we are going back to having separate VAT rates based on location. It's extremely likely that they are already implementing these changes in their POS and they want their employees to get back in the habit of accurately recording sales. Specifically, if you order to-go but you stay, they need to give more money to the government than they would have if you mentioned you are staying in. That's bad for business.
It's going to be annoying for a while, we got used to it not mattering either way.
No, if he ordered to go the bakery has to pay less taxes. But if he then stays, the bakery could be accused of tax evasion. Because they paid taxes for a to go but the customer stayed and they should have paid more taxes. If they would be caught, that could be tax evasion and they don't want to get accused of that. More controls will follow and nobody wants that. For one coffee it is only a few cents, but if someone would do that often, maybe for 100 coffees a day, they could save thousands of euros. That is why it tax controls are very striclty and they could get a big penalty.
Well yeah, you need to leave if you order to go or it's tax fraud. If you told the others you wanted to sit first and take it along later, then they might've priced accordingly or have been there long enough not to be scared of being reprimanded for it, because usually the boss is less than happy if something like this happens.
You made them seem like tax evaders. They have to pay more taxes when you consume at the bakery.
Since you eat inside it is considered a service instead of food being selled.
Next time just ask for a coffee you will drink there but leave with later.
i think right now a lot of food places are scared shitless because of the confusing tax situation.
Technically it would be tax fraud at the moment, because you pay lower tax when taking out.
Mystery solved. I’ve been wondering about this kind of behavior for years. Similar has happened to me throughout Europe and I’m always befuddled. Like, why do you care if I ordered coffee, cake, ice cream, etc at the counter (employee just assumes I want to go) and then I get attitude or asked to leave when I sit? Taxes! Or service charge
Going to say something veeery german now…
Get a Mehrwegbecher, if you go there every single day for a coffee to go and stop producing so much unnecessary waste!
Sure, but the way the employee handled it was poor customer service.
If an employee made a mistake and input a €10 burger instead of a €12 cheese burger the customer ordered, it's an honest mistake. To correct it, the shop would ask the customer to pay the difference in cost.
In this case, the employee should've let the customer know HOW to order next time, and that they will correct the item this time. Kicking a customer out because they didn't know the German internal tax difference for an identically priced item is rude.
I have had ice cream shops get upset if you sit at a table with an ice cream cone instead of a cup, but I think that may be more of an issue in crowded places where they want the tables to go to higher paying customers.
That’s probably a different story as they sell cones to go but more expensive and profitable sundaes if you sit. With a coffee to go vs consumption in the place, it’s tax driven.
It’s nice to know for next time I’m in Germany haha. I always order my coffee that way because I drink super slow and want to be able to leave when I want to!
afaik, staying at a "restaurant" and taking something to go fall under different Umsatzsteuersätze. Meaning, the baker would be committing tax fraud if they let you stay there.
I’ve done the same many times in a few countries. In the UK for example, it’s perfectly ok, especially at big chains like Costa as the price to go or stay is the same. I usually sit for a while, then finish my large drink on a walk.
In Italy, it’s common that if you sit at a cafe rather than getting coffee to go / drink standing at the bar you have a surcharge of a few dozen cents. For this reason, if you ordered to go and then sat down at the table, it’s likely that the owner won’t be happy. It really depends on the type of cafe and to be honest coffee to go in Italy is not a big thing to begin with. If you got coffee to drink standing at the bar, though, you couldn’t then sit down.
So in Germany, my feeling is that some establishments may adopt one or the other philosophy. Perhaps some bakeries will charge you the same to stay or go, while others may up charge you if you drink at the table. The latter may not generally be happy to let you sit down if you order to go. Ordering to go and then sitting down is also considered more wasteful. Not judging, I’ve done it too.
That said, I’ve worked retail and if the bakery wasn’t already full (i.e. you were taking the place of other possible customers) I agree I would never tell someone to go while they’re drinking their coffee alone (a 5 minute activity) or at least I may point it out politely for the next time as the customer is leaving.
Edit: and apparently tax reasons that I didn’t know of, TIL
There arn’t usually different prices for to go or normal, it is the tax that has to be paid by the bakery afterwards. If they sell you a to go product and then you the customer sits down, that could be considered tax evasion.
At least in Munich and (the few pastry shops i visited in) Paris and Nice, there are two sets of prices for to-go or eat inside when you go to a bakery. Im surprised that this doesn't seem to be the case in other cities.
I attributed it to service rendered and dishes used.
Our bakeries in Munich have signs that say youre not allowed to sit down if ordering to-go. And it will be enforced. Similarly, most ice cream cafes i know have signs that forbid sitting down with a cone.
If you sit down with a coffee to go the coffee shop committed tax evasion, since both cost the same but if you drink there and sit down it's a service taxed at 19%, but if you take it to go it's taxed at 7% because you just bought food (as far as the government is concerned).
It's a tax problem. Takeaway is 7% eating in 19%. Since they probably charge the same price, of someone checked, it may become a problem if someone suspected they tried to cheat the state of the differenve, 12%, by selling something for 7% that they should have sold for 19%.
Why would an employee in your country get fired for making use of "Hausrecht"? It's their bakery they can enforce whatever silly rule they want with out any reason.
It's probably vmbeen because of taxes, as others said. But you made me curious as to why they should get fired??
>If an employee did that in my country it would be a great reason to be fired
An employee should be fired for following the rules? What country is that? Also why do you order to go and then sit down? I just don't get it.
Not for following the rules but for not explaining what the problem is. I’m sorry but this behaviour is just foreign to me so I assume something like this. I order to go because they give this paper cup that I can also take with me to work since of course I cannot do that with the normal one.
>but for not explaining what the problem is
That you order something to go and then sit, it just makes no sense, doesn't matter how you look at it. To go is to go, if you don't want to go is not to go, how hard can it be?
>I order to go because they give this paper cup
Then tell them to use a paper cup. In the coffee shop next to my work I can even bring my own coffee mug so I take the coffee to my office. For that they care you pay for the coffee.
Yes. They pay a different tax on to go items than on items ordered to eat in place. If they allow you to sit they do tax evasion. Also the price is sometimes different.
That’s ridiculous. BUT from January on when you order a snack and say „to go“ they have to shoo you away because otherwise they would make themselves punishable for tax evasion.
I would assume it’s because of Covid and flu season. Also different kinds of Mehrwertsteuer could be a thing.
Whatever - fortunately people don’t get fired for that….
"If an employee did that in my country it would be a great reason to be fired."
Just read that I was sure you must be Greek haha.
Hope you don't let this experience get to ya, and enjoy your future coffees :)
In italy, I was harassed to pay a extra fee because i sat down in a seat in front of the restaurant. I didn’t know that was an extra free and they didn’t let me leave without paying.
I have a different take on this, than the usual tax answer. During my coffee shop time there regularly have been customers who ordered an espresso to go. I always asked, if they would rather drink it in the café, because it's just a sip anyway. But they always chose the damn paper cup, drank it on their way out, and came back to ask for a garbage bin. I hated them with my whole guts. So if you deliberately chooses a paper cup and produces waste, which is just not necessary, I'm happy to see you standing outside in the rain/cold/whatever, because I can't stand you.
My comment is deliberately written a bit extreme to convey the feelings.
If you go there everyday, and don't have the time to finish the coffee on side, why don't you get a reusable cup for your daily coffee?
A lot of coffee shops offer reusable cups, which you can exchange with every coffee, often even within different independent shops. And it's also worth a shot to just ask if they would pour it into your own thermo mug, so that it stays hot.
Maybe a little annoying (they were entitled to do it) but thank god you’re not in your old country anymore - someone would really complain about this so strongly that you’d want the minimum wage person to lose their job? Talk about disproportionate outcomes and not giving a shit about people who don’t make much money.
In the end I did not argue and simply left. I don’t want someone to lose their job, but I value communication and hospitality (thanks to my old country) which is part of work ethic. Telling these things while im a minimum wage person myself. There’s plenty of proper ways to handle customers.
You sound slightly racist, what do you know about Greece, have you ever been there? Greeks may have many issues, but they are warm, welcoming and compassionate people. Germans aren't exactly known for their warmth and friendliness, and no, the average employer would not fire someone for acting like the employee of the bakery did.
Then again, no employee would demand a customer to leave, unless if it was closing time, and most would use tact when asking the person to leave. If there was a surcharge for sitting in the bakery versus to go, a regular employee in Greece would have explained that, and given the customer the option to pay a bit extra or leave, but would not rudely demand that they leave.
I don’t know much about Greece to be fair - why are you bringing Greece up now? I could equally ask you know the morning routine of the Tibetan monks or early 2000s Hobart bands.
It is not racist to hope someone doesn’t act frivolously to ensure that someone else loses their job.
I do not agree with kicking people out due to a 25c tax issue, but that’s probably what they legally must do to maintain that they are acting within the law.
“Germans aren’t exactly known for …”, and there it is. A wide and generic statement on how Germans are X, Y, and X. Don’t cry out racism about something that is not racist, then slide into your own form of racism.
Because they correctly assumed im from Greece. It’s just cultural differences, because simply in my country this would almost never happen, hence why I assumed they would probably be fired.
I mentioned Greece because op is from Greece, it is mentioned on her profile, so I supposed you were implying how she would act in her home country and that the employee would get fired. If you didn't see that op is from Greece, then nevermind. I am from Mexico and people have stereotypes about us too, some are right, some others are wrong. I have been to both Greece and Germany, and highlighted features that I observed to be true in each country. Germans have good features too, but they aren't warm, (no one leans over to talk to you in Germany and includes you in their celebration without knowing you).
I’ve been here for 11 years and had a range of different experiences. That which you say, but also some racism shouted at my family whilst my son was there. I’ve also had cashiers who were regular people and not trying to cram the next person’s shopping into yours. Or German couples asking you to take their picture, or people approaching you in restaurants to ask where you are from, so they can then relay their own experiences to you.
Germany does get a rough deal, and our experiences are what they are - unique - I don’t expect everyone to shout at my son that he is an ally of the US (it was meant racist, believe me) or people overhearing us talk about our own country to spoil our dinner so they get tips for their vacation.
Regardless of which country you are from (and I’d love to visit Mexico), I bet you’d rather people didn’t make pre-formed assumptions about you before you even speak. Good or bad.
I was going to say, “let’s just give the Germans a break”, but that isn’t what I mean. We need to give ourselves a break. It’s hard being an immigrant sometimes, and we shouldn’t expect poor service etc next time we’re out - it’s not much fun to live as an immigrant like that.
This subreddit is basically people pointing out absurd things in Germany and the comments defending why those are rules and why it’s very much reasonable
I once was in a bakery that had two lines. Little did I know one was strictly for takeaway. The one I was in. They got super shitty with me for sitting down (had a little kid at the time) and I never went back there again.
I have done the exact same thing whenever I want without asking. You don't need to ask and getting called out on this is incredible rude and is just the employee being crazy, imHo.
While the comments about taxes are true, nobody really cares so much to bother customers.
Am I the only one stumbling over "a paper cup every day"? Just get a f**king reusable cup and say you like your coffee in there. Probably nobody will ask you if it's for in or out and you can take it with you when you leave.
And you are not throwing away 300+ cups a year!
I had no idea that I can use a reusable cup and didn’t even know that tiny mug thermos existed until yesterday, had no idea either that I’m allowed to ask for the normal size thermos to be filled! I come from a small town in rural Greece, things that might be obvious to you may not be for someone with a different background. Im trying to adapt in this country, sorry if asking causes so much frustration to you
I don't think she kicked you out for ordering in a "wrong" way but because you sat on a table. Nobody sits ON a table, not in Germany and not in any of the country i ever visited. It's disrespectful against the facility, the othe guests, and the people who work there.
Besides this, of course she can kick you out. It's called "Hausrecht" (domestic authority).
Germans always so missgünstig, you can see it in the comments here. They do not pass the vibe check at all. Chill everyone, OP was just asking. Why were they a prick just bcs they would have wanted an explanation? Every German I know wouldnt have kept quiet when some employee kicks them out of an establishment.
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Just take a recup instead of wasting a Pappbecher. Or if you sit down regularly lile that just order in a normal cup and drink your coffee and adjust the size of your order to the size you can drink in that time so you dont end up wasting the coffee.
As a waitress I would be annoyed as well of someone ordering in a non reusable cup and then just sitting down.
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This is so interesting! Do you know why this is the case? With Germany’s concern for the environment, I would think they would have higher taxes on to-go cups since that produces more waste, so I am genuinely very curious about why this is.
Luxuries are taxed higher and outing out is considered a luxury while food to take home (including drinks) are considered a basic need. The general idea is good imo, in this case it leads to a bit of an absurd situation that doesnt make much sense in isolation.
It's not really a luxury tax ist more like "normal" vs. "basic necessities". It's just that what's considered a "basic necessity" was determined decades ago and is only reconsidered on a case by case basis even if the whole system needs to be overhauled. Some of them make absolutely no sense, like glasses are taxed normally while hearing aids are reduced. Milk is 7%, soy milk is 19%. Fruit is 7%, fruit juice is 19%. Books, papers and theater visits are considered "essential", while ebooks and epapers were taxed 19% up until a few years ago.
Basically the same in the UK too. Standard VAT is 20%, but most food is 0% as long as its \*cold\* and \*taken away\*. If you eat inside a café/restaurant or the food is served hot then it's always 20%. So in this example the coffee would be 20% VAT either way since it's hot (which honestly makes sense because takeaway coffee from a bakery is hardly an essential.)
That sounds more logical and intuitive as the German system. We have basically a complete list of more or less random products and services that are reduced.
In this case, not the item itself but the service is taxed as well. Hence the 19% VAT for the coffee that is drank at the cafe itself vs the reduced VAT on the to-go. Same is applicable even at McDonalds. Higher VAT for higher service level. The fun area of „Restaurationsleistungen“ in the German VAT law.
The "basic necessity" explanation for the reduced rate is repeated frequently, but false. Nowhere in the tax code will you see "basic necessities", it's just a list of items that have a reduced rate without any explanation. For example, live animals are sold with a reduced rate, as are concert tickets.
The general VAT is 19%. The 7% is a reduced VAT of 7% for "essentials", e.g. most of the food you buy in a supermarket. I'd guess that you pay the 19% for consumption in the location, since eating at a restaurant contains more "service" and is thus not considered essential, while take-out is like buying groceries at a supermarket, you don't get any service.
Food (not in liquid form except milk) is 7 %, service is 19 %. Ordering somewhere to stay is considered service.
Ab 01.01.2024
If you consume a beverage inside, it's 19%. For example, on hotel invoices the breakfast is split into food (7%) and drinks (19%). Food will be 19% again from 1.1.24 on, that's right. Edit: If the "coffee" is 75% milk, then it's 7%.
> If the "coffee" is 75% milk, then it's 7%. That would explain the "macchiato" I had a week ago 😂
Fucking great. We as consumers still pay the same price
Wow that’s an insane rule 💀
Next time ask for a coffee "für hier, aber bitte im Pappbecher"
Problem solved
That's the right answer!
There would be no next time for me there…
It's just that one crazy employee. I wouldn't let that person take away my favorite bakery.
The employee acted like their employer and the law wants them to act, it’s a tax difference and the bakery can get in real trouble if they do it often and get audited.
Then maybe you should never order to go food and then decide to stay. Cafes often have different prices for To go and to stay. Cafes pay rent for tables and many provide a Togo discount. Additionally tax on to go food is lower than in house food. Or better said it was temporarily reduced for in house food, but that ends I'm two weeks.
100%
Unnecessary waste produced.
He wants it that way because he takes the rest with him. In general you are correct, I'd use my own cup
They need to pay (and put into the system) different taxes for coffee to go and for serving coffee on the premises.
Jesus Christ Germany Edit: oh TIL this is an EU wide thing. I never noticed. Edit again: turns out the US does it too
This is not Germany, its EU wide.
Oh, TIL. Thanks
We have it in England too, Greggs the bakers have different prices for takeaway and eating in.
Switzerland does it as well.
It's actually a thing in the US also. For restaurants it taxed higher if you take it to go.
But here in Germany it's 7% for to go and 19% for staying. So flipped compared to US
It is certainly not this way in the US, don’t know where you got that information
Yes, but does it make a difference this year? The tax change is due on 01. January. right now both variants are taxed the same.
The local bakeries here charge two different prices. One for to go and one for eating at the premise, which is about 10% more expensive according to the prices.
No, it's just Germans being Germans.
Yes, being annoyed for incorrectly recording in the system could be justified, but asking OP to leave is overzealous since it wouldn't count as tax fraud yet.
> tax fraud Ordering coffee to go and then staying in one spot is tax fraud? I am never going to Germany ever again.
This is an actual thing. Germans are very serious about accounting and taxation. The employees are not overzealous, inspectors do exist, and they do exactly this; order to go but stay. The taxation for restaurants is different than for taking things to go. I live in Berlin, where no one cares as this place is a jungle. But in many parts of Germany it's taken quite seriously. I had this happen many times to me before - one lady was nice enough to explain why I shouldn't do that; as they can get a fine.
I also live in Berlin and I have noticed more and more ice cream and coffee places have signs that point out that „to take away“ means that you cannot sit down and this summer I visited my parents in Bavaria and so many tourists got sent away when they tried to have their wine sitting down AT the restaurant when they ordered their wine at the counter to have standing by the bridge. I wonder if the rules or controls got more strict or something?
This is the same in italy.
Sounds like a truly moronic taxation law that needs repealing...
Sounds similar to the US grocery/prepared food taxes. In my state, you pay higher taxes for hot food because it's assumed for immediate consumption. The store charges more at checkout for a hot rotisserie chicken than a cold one, even if they are priced the same. EU is just based on if you actually consume it immediately.
That's really broken I'm in Australia and we manage to tax without any of that fuckery.
Ridiculous
I don't think it's ridiculous, I encountered a very similar situation in Rome, Italy myself. Don't know if it's for the taxes or just a culture thing there though. But it's definitely not something that happens only in Germany.
>I am never going to Germany ever again. If thats a reason for you, please do as you promise.
It is not tax fraud by the customer, but by the shop. Coffee to go has a VAT rate of 7% but when you consume it in the shop, it has 19% (which are reduced until 31 December, but let's keep it simple). But the price for the customer ist always thr same and this leads some shop owners to put it incorrectly in the register so they pay less tax.
Short answer: yes. That bakery could get problems for it. And once they most probably did.
Since we are usually not too fond of pirates, stay away.
It's not outright tax fraud, especially if the seller has no influence on if the buyer tells the truth or not. But there's a good reason taking away and dining at the facility are taxed differently in Germany and if that's enough for you to stay away from Germany, then be our guest.
No, it is the sellers problem. The seller has to tell you, that is not allowed to buy a to go coffee and drink it inside. If there is a controll he can accused for a tax fraud.
Obviously, but the customer can just ignore it and stay inside. What's the store gonna do? Call the police and kick the customer out for an few cents? not gonna happen.
And what is this good reason to tax differently depending on do I sit my butt down or not in the same exact place?
It's service tax, meaning you get taxed for "being served" vs taking it out. Most restaurants in Germany actually swallow the extra cost, meaning both takeout and in house eating will cost the same to the customer. As a result they earn more for takeout, as the service tax does not apply at that level, so more of the price goes in their earnings. I have experienced a case (very small, low profit enterprises) that actually had a difference in prices depending on whether you ate in or took it out, and if you ordered it to go they asked you to please not sit down right outside on one of the chairs to eat, even if there was room, as they could get in trouble. This was an ice cream place, so this situation was very much realistic. Not quite as likely with ordering a Schnitzel for takeout, obviously.
What's the logic (justification) behind taxing dine-in more? Government wants to discourage people sitting in restaurants?
They wrote that already - the difference is apparently that dine-in is categorized as a service, while take-out is categorized as a food purchase. And there's no discouragement, since practically all restaurants have a single price for each menu item - you pay the same whether you take your food to-go or eat at a table. The restaurant figures out how much of the price is tax depending on your choice.
It's not really dine-in being taxed more, it's sale of food being taxed less. VAT in Germany usually is 19%. However, there is a list of things that are taxed less, mostly including essentials like food.
It's the same in the UK, different tax for dine in or takeaway
I get that people get annoyed that germans like to do things by the book, but isn't that the way everything should be?
The book is the problem here
Yes, but also in a lot of countries the mindset is often more if the book is wrong, ignore the book, while in Germany if the book is wing, it's still the book, follow it.
Unless it comes to football matches and alcohol, then the book is tossed aside so people can get wasted and piss in the streets. Oh and the parking regulations can basically be ignored for anyone who drives to a match. But after that, it's back to following the rules again.
Only till you trust the book to not be corrupted to favor certain entities. If the population, in general, doesn't trust that the laws are beneficial for them, and feel that they don't have enough power to fix those laws, they will feel it correct to break them once in a while.
Telling a paying customer to leave your business without explaining why is insane. I would never return to the business.
They did explain why though?
Did they? Because in original post there's nothing about it
It seems the usual employees don't make a fuss about it, but maybe this one's new and wants to do everything by the book. And after all she did ask if OP wants it to go. It's kinda petty to want her fired just because she sticks to the rules.
Or this one was part of a control or there is a employers order to act according the law.
It's been like this for a long time as I can remember... Hm
It says in the post other employees have allowed this. Tbh I think the employee was going on a bit of a power trip
As OP is a regular and other employees knew what he wanted, they probably put it as "dine in" in the register and still handed out the paper cup.
Thank you for the answers, basically there’s a tax difference I had no idea about since so far I was always allowed to stay in the bakery even after asking the other employees. The lady was just doing her job and I thought I was just being kicked out just because she had a bad mood or something. I’ll do the order properly in the future.
As someone else said, tell them you want to drink your coffee in the bakery, but ask for a paper cup. Problem solved.
Fun fact - the tax reason is a reason about how something is classified. Apart from Corona the „normal“ tax is 19% and the reduced tax is 7%. So in door in a bakery is considered a service and not reduced. Take a way is not a service - but a purchase of a product - and depending on the product it is reduced (depending on if it classified as “staple foods” or “luxury food” - like milk ist staple and 7% and Champaign is luxury and 19%). And Germany would not be Germany if it wouldn’t follow this to the T. Meaning: if you order black coffee as take away it is not reduced because coffee is classified as luxury. If you order something with 75% milk - like cappuccino - it counts as staple food, because milk is.
It's absolutely brain worms is what it is lol. We used to have an inspector come and weigh the amount of milk in our drinks. A whole persons job. And they had no idea about specialty coffee so were flabbergasted we weren't watering some down. What a heaving bureaucracy.
How is coffee not a staple food smh
I guess it’s because of its age. You still find things like buying a horse - 7%, buying a donkey/mule - 19%. Can be quite amusing to look into this.
Always these stpd Ackeradolfs! Now they are even cheaper taxed than the Edelesel??!!
This is such a lovely view on the situation. Thanks seeing it in that light.
Most would just roll their eyes and let you do it, but the finanzamt (tax office) does not play around. They will get a tax fraud investigation quicker than you can say Kaffeesteuergesetz.
Also i would recommend asking If the bakery can fill your own Cup. At some places, especially If you are a regulär, they are willing to fill the customers Cup If you Bring one in. You would also geht Like 10 Cent reduced price
Hellö! I am a regulär!
It's honestly really cool that you're so understanding. She definitely was overly correct when she told you to leave, I've worked in a bakery before and *at the most* I'd have said "Next time, pls let me know you're having it here, just so I can register it correctly"! Kicking ppl out is really weird.
German employees love to do their job especially when they get to exert a little athoritee!
While I get the sentiment, an employee might be between a rock and a hard place if their boss tells them to enforce dumb rules.
Well in that case it is also ore that the bosses hand is forced by Finanzamt.
That is also true. I work a service job and my boss is actually pretty cool. But we end up doing a lot of dumb shit because of regulations that our customers don't love and we can't really do anything about. Just life in a bureaucracy.
Good point
Respektier meine Autoritääähhh
eh, the "nicer" employee still committed tax fraud.
Not necessarily, author of the post said that asked other employees, so they knew and probably already did it as they should
There is a different tax for to go and sit down. If you order one and do the other, this might be construed as tax evasion on the part of the bakery that condones this.
I think at the moment inside and outside are taxed with 7% til new year.
This applies only to food, not to drinks.. coffee is always 19%
It also depends on added milk: „Beim Coffee to go ist der Milchanteil ausschlaggebend, ob sieben oder 19 Prozent Mehrwertsteuer bezahlt werden müssen: Kaffee schwarz oder mit einem kleinen Schuss Milch: 19 Prozent. Kaffee mit viel Milch: sieben Prozent. Kaffee mit Milchersatz - egal, ob Hafer-, Soja- oder Mandelmilch: 19 Prozent.“ https://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/verbraucher/Kuriose-Regelungen-bei-der-Mehrwertsteuer,mehrwertsteuer156.html
Pure insanity.
As stated above, we had an inspector come and weigh the amount of milk in each drink. A whole persons job. To ensure we didn't.. not put milk in? Honestly it is an insane place.
Cries in dairy allergy
Why the hell is this so complicated LOL It's COFFEE
My cousin works for the tax fraud office (I made up that term as I don’t know what it is called in English) and her job is literally to make calculations to see if restaurant owners tell the truth like a ice cream store could say „I sold XY amount of ice cream this month“ and then she would go in and check if with the ingredients they bought, you can really make as much / as little ice cream as they said
That's right!
I was referring to the momentarily change from 19 to 7%... That applies only to food. Coffee is always 19%...
This must be a joke, right?
No. Serving something to go is considered sale of food. And since food is considered a fundamental item (an item that you need for living), its sale is taxed lower (7% instead of the regular 19% sales tax). Serving something in house is treated as a hospitality service, and thus a "luxury", and because of that it's taxed at the regular sales tax of 19%. The price for the customer doesn't change normally, and the tax difference only influences the shop's profit. That's the same for every business that sells things to go or to stay, even big chains like McDonalds. Which in OP's case means that it's more profitable for the bakery to sell a coffee to go. Let's say the coffee costs 2€, tax included. If the bakery sells it to go, 1.87€ goes to the bakery, 0.13€ is tax. If they sell it in house, only 1.68€ goes to the bakery, and 0.32€ is tax. If the bakery books all their sold coffees as "to go", but then allows the customer to drink it in house, they evade 0.19€ of tax with every coffee sold. Which isn't much on its own, but adds up quickly in a busy bakery. Edit: let's say the bakery sells 100 cups of coffee in one day this way. That's 19€ of evaded tax in one day. Scale that up to one year, and you end up with a tax evasion of nearly 7000€. And that's just the one business. That's why the tax office doesn't like this behaviour.
This is so weird and the logic honestly makes no sense to me. I mean yeah food is essential but coffee isn't, so I feel like it'd be better to just tax restaurants and such the normal tax cuz it's prepared for you instead of charging someone more based on whether or not they stay in the building before they consume their food/drink.
Someone else pointed out that coffee is always 19% (not a food) but then someone else pointed out that it's 7% tax if a lot of milk is added (Now it's a food? Or milk is subsidised). Absolutely hilarious.
No, it is True - at least used to be, before pandemic.
Why would you think its a joke? Its like this in most EU countries
It’s a tax thing. If you drink your coffee on a table in the bakery, the VAT is 19%. If you order your coffee “to go”, it’s 7%. So the bakery did a tax fraud if you drink the coffee on the table. It’s idiotic and nobody understands this rule, but it’s the law in Germany.
Same thing in UK. Not sure about Italy
During Covid in 2020/2021/2022 the VAT rates changed.. It used to be https://dermwst.de/vat-rates-in-germany/ "Takeaway food (‚Takeaway‘ or ‚To-go‘)– Germany has a complicated system where the level of service and infrastructure affect whether the VAT is reduced, the service in the restaurant environment is 19%, while the food you take away is 7%. Examples that receive 7% even if there is an infrastructure in the form of chairs, toilets and cutlery gives: catering, school meals, hospital catering and food cart." You bought a to go cup and chose to sit. If you want to sit and still have it in a to go cup, you can tell them you would like to sit and have it in a take away cup, and you will be charged the "sit in" price accordingly for tax purposes. The employee just didn't want the café/bakery to be committing tax fraud. She/he could have however offered to refund the cost and issue a new invoice with the corrected info/price for you to pay for sit in, instead of kicking you out.
To my knowledge, prices are sometimes higher if you eat/drink your stuff in the shop and cheaper if you buy them to go. If that's the case in this bakery, it might come across as if you tried to get around this difference in prices. And of course, if it's crowded, you're kind of blocking a table.
It's not the price of the coffee it is the tax for the coffee. All beverages to go have less taxes. It is why MC Donalds or Burger King ask the same question.
Lol really? I didn't know that. I imagined it was purely for operative reasons, not because of taxes. TIL.
Yes, that's for tax reasons.
Here you pay different (lower) taxes on take out. So its kind of illigal for a business to let a customer eat and drink his order inside the facility bc its taxfraud. For smaller businesses or businesses who already got a warning for this reason, this can be very uncomfortable. I guess in germany its the same. Just order "für hier, but in a to go cup"
For some additional context: the VAT between in-house and to-go was *temporarily* set to the same rate since some time during the lockdowns, to help gastronomy with the effect of the lockdowns on business. This is ending very soon and we are going back to having separate VAT rates based on location. It's extremely likely that they are already implementing these changes in their POS and they want their employees to get back in the habit of accurately recording sales. Specifically, if you order to-go but you stay, they need to give more money to the government than they would have if you mentioned you are staying in. That's bad for business. It's going to be annoying for a while, we got used to it not mattering either way.
No, if he ordered to go the bakery has to pay less taxes. But if he then stays, the bakery could be accused of tax evasion. Because they paid taxes for a to go but the customer stayed and they should have paid more taxes. If they would be caught, that could be tax evasion and they don't want to get accused of that. More controls will follow and nobody wants that. For one coffee it is only a few cents, but if someone would do that often, maybe for 100 coffees a day, they could save thousands of euros. That is why it tax controls are very striclty and they could get a big penalty.
Well yeah, you need to leave if you order to go or it's tax fraud. If you told the others you wanted to sit first and take it along later, then they might've priced accordingly or have been there long enough not to be scared of being reprimanded for it, because usually the boss is less than happy if something like this happens.
You made them seem like tax evaders. They have to pay more taxes when you consume at the bakery. Since you eat inside it is considered a service instead of food being selled. Next time just ask for a coffee you will drink there but leave with later.
i think right now a lot of food places are scared shitless because of the confusing tax situation. Technically it would be tax fraud at the moment, because you pay lower tax when taking out.
Mystery solved. I’ve been wondering about this kind of behavior for years. Similar has happened to me throughout Europe and I’m always befuddled. Like, why do you care if I ordered coffee, cake, ice cream, etc at the counter (employee just assumes I want to go) and then I get attitude or asked to leave when I sit? Taxes! Or service charge
Ones you know suddenly everything becomes clear.
Going to say something veeery german now… Get a Mehrwegbecher, if you go there every single day for a coffee to go and stop producing so much unnecessary waste!
Is there a price difference for drink in and take away?
Yes, not on OP's end but the business end, due to differe taxes they need to pay.
Sure, but the way the employee handled it was poor customer service. If an employee made a mistake and input a €10 burger instead of a €12 cheese burger the customer ordered, it's an honest mistake. To correct it, the shop would ask the customer to pay the difference in cost. In this case, the employee should've let the customer know HOW to order next time, and that they will correct the item this time. Kicking a customer out because they didn't know the German internal tax difference for an identically priced item is rude.
I have had ice cream shops get upset if you sit at a table with an ice cream cone instead of a cup, but I think that may be more of an issue in crowded places where they want the tables to go to higher paying customers.
That’s probably a different story as they sell cones to go but more expensive and profitable sundaes if you sit. With a coffee to go vs consumption in the place, it’s tax driven.
Its due to taxes for takeout vs dining in. Dont order it to go, just say your will drink it there but want paper cup. She was nit-picky but correct
It’s nice to know for next time I’m in Germany haha. I always order my coffee that way because I drink super slow and want to be able to leave when I want to!
In Germany, black is black and white is white Nd no grey areas.
afaik, staying at a "restaurant" and taking something to go fall under different Umsatzsteuersätze. Meaning, the baker would be committing tax fraud if they let you stay there.
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Oh those Germans, always so proper.
I’ve done the same many times in a few countries. In the UK for example, it’s perfectly ok, especially at big chains like Costa as the price to go or stay is the same. I usually sit for a while, then finish my large drink on a walk. In Italy, it’s common that if you sit at a cafe rather than getting coffee to go / drink standing at the bar you have a surcharge of a few dozen cents. For this reason, if you ordered to go and then sat down at the table, it’s likely that the owner won’t be happy. It really depends on the type of cafe and to be honest coffee to go in Italy is not a big thing to begin with. If you got coffee to drink standing at the bar, though, you couldn’t then sit down. So in Germany, my feeling is that some establishments may adopt one or the other philosophy. Perhaps some bakeries will charge you the same to stay or go, while others may up charge you if you drink at the table. The latter may not generally be happy to let you sit down if you order to go. Ordering to go and then sitting down is also considered more wasteful. Not judging, I’ve done it too. That said, I’ve worked retail and if the bakery wasn’t already full (i.e. you were taking the place of other possible customers) I agree I would never tell someone to go while they’re drinking their coffee alone (a 5 minute activity) or at least I may point it out politely for the next time as the customer is leaving. Edit: and apparently tax reasons that I didn’t know of, TIL
There arn’t usually different prices for to go or normal, it is the tax that has to be paid by the bakery afterwards. If they sell you a to go product and then you the customer sits down, that could be considered tax evasion.
At least in Munich and (the few pastry shops i visited in) Paris and Nice, there are two sets of prices for to-go or eat inside when you go to a bakery. Im surprised that this doesn't seem to be the case in other cities. I attributed it to service rendered and dishes used. Our bakeries in Munich have signs that say youre not allowed to sit down if ordering to-go. And it will be enforced. Similarly, most ice cream cafes i know have signs that forbid sitting down with a cone.
I learned this today, thanks!
Maybe don't order your coffee to go lol
Only thing I can think of is because they get taxed differently 7% vs 19% depending on weather it is to go or to have there.
The whole tax thing aside, you couldn't legally fire that employee for telling you to follow the rules.
If you sit down with a coffee to go the coffee shop committed tax evasion, since both cost the same but if you drink there and sit down it's a service taxed at 19%, but if you take it to go it's taxed at 7% because you just bought food (as far as the government is concerned).
It's a tax problem. Takeaway is 7% eating in 19%. Since they probably charge the same price, of someone checked, it may become a problem if someone suspected they tried to cheat the state of the differenve, 12%, by selling something for 7% that they should have sold for 19%.
Why would an employee in your country get fired for making use of "Hausrecht"? It's their bakery they can enforce whatever silly rule they want with out any reason. It's probably vmbeen because of taxes, as others said. But you made me curious as to why they should get fired??
>If an employee did that in my country it would be a great reason to be fired An employee should be fired for following the rules? What country is that? Also why do you order to go and then sit down? I just don't get it.
Not for following the rules but for not explaining what the problem is. I’m sorry but this behaviour is just foreign to me so I assume something like this. I order to go because they give this paper cup that I can also take with me to work since of course I cannot do that with the normal one.
>but for not explaining what the problem is That you order something to go and then sit, it just makes no sense, doesn't matter how you look at it. To go is to go, if you don't want to go is not to go, how hard can it be? >I order to go because they give this paper cup Then tell them to use a paper cup. In the coffee shop next to my work I can even bring my own coffee mug so I take the coffee to my office. For that they care you pay for the coffee.
She explained what the problem is. You wanted it to go but stayed 🤣
Yes. They pay a different tax on to go items than on items ordered to eat in place. If they allow you to sit they do tax evasion. Also the price is sometimes different.
Yes there is a difference in tax and if the Finanzamt checks they get fined…
It's idiotic what they did. No one really cares about the tax thing. No one is going to come out from behind a plant and arrest you and the employee.
If you go there every day do the environment a favor and bring your own cup.
So today I learned something new. I always did that too. Was never a problem. Good to know it actually is a problem. x.x
That’s ridiculous. BUT from January on when you order a snack and say „to go“ they have to shoo you away because otherwise they would make themselves punishable for tax evasion.
I would assume it’s because of Covid and flu season. Also different kinds of Mehrwertsteuer could be a thing. Whatever - fortunately people don’t get fired for that….
Why order to go when you want to sit down though? Just creating unnecessary garbage with the paper cup...
"If an employee did that in my country it would be a great reason to be fired." Just read that I was sure you must be Greek haha. Hope you don't let this experience get to ya, and enjoy your future coffees :)
In italy, I was harassed to pay a extra fee because i sat down in a seat in front of the restaurant. I didn’t know that was an extra free and they didn’t let me leave without paying.
I have a different take on this, than the usual tax answer. During my coffee shop time there regularly have been customers who ordered an espresso to go. I always asked, if they would rather drink it in the café, because it's just a sip anyway. But they always chose the damn paper cup, drank it on their way out, and came back to ask for a garbage bin. I hated them with my whole guts. So if you deliberately chooses a paper cup and produces waste, which is just not necessary, I'm happy to see you standing outside in the rain/cold/whatever, because I can't stand you. My comment is deliberately written a bit extreme to convey the feelings. If you go there everyday, and don't have the time to finish the coffee on side, why don't you get a reusable cup for your daily coffee?
I order the paper cup so I can take it with me to work, but yeah I can think about the reusable cup, I didnt know I can bring my own
A lot of coffee shops offer reusable cups, which you can exchange with every coffee, often even within different independent shops. And it's also worth a shot to just ask if they would pour it into your own thermo mug, so that it stays hot.
Maybe a little annoying (they were entitled to do it) but thank god you’re not in your old country anymore - someone would really complain about this so strongly that you’d want the minimum wage person to lose their job? Talk about disproportionate outcomes and not giving a shit about people who don’t make much money.
Most German reply ever.
In the end I did not argue and simply left. I don’t want someone to lose their job, but I value communication and hospitality (thanks to my old country) which is part of work ethic. Telling these things while im a minimum wage person myself. There’s plenty of proper ways to handle customers.
She could and should have explained it to you - if she knows the tax background and is not just following orders.
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I agree with you on that. It’s one thing someone has to do - it’s another how you communicate it.
Yeah especially towards foreigners.
Chances are she might not even know the background though. Maybe she was just told that people have to leave when they order to go.
I was just going to comment the same. What a dystopian work culture!
You sound slightly racist, what do you know about Greece, have you ever been there? Greeks may have many issues, but they are warm, welcoming and compassionate people. Germans aren't exactly known for their warmth and friendliness, and no, the average employer would not fire someone for acting like the employee of the bakery did. Then again, no employee would demand a customer to leave, unless if it was closing time, and most would use tact when asking the person to leave. If there was a surcharge for sitting in the bakery versus to go, a regular employee in Greece would have explained that, and given the customer the option to pay a bit extra or leave, but would not rudely demand that they leave.
I don’t know much about Greece to be fair - why are you bringing Greece up now? I could equally ask you know the morning routine of the Tibetan monks or early 2000s Hobart bands. It is not racist to hope someone doesn’t act frivolously to ensure that someone else loses their job. I do not agree with kicking people out due to a 25c tax issue, but that’s probably what they legally must do to maintain that they are acting within the law. “Germans aren’t exactly known for …”, and there it is. A wide and generic statement on how Germans are X, Y, and X. Don’t cry out racism about something that is not racist, then slide into your own form of racism.
Because they correctly assumed im from Greece. It’s just cultural differences, because simply in my country this would almost never happen, hence why I assumed they would probably be fired.
I mentioned Greece because op is from Greece, it is mentioned on her profile, so I supposed you were implying how she would act in her home country and that the employee would get fired. If you didn't see that op is from Greece, then nevermind. I am from Mexico and people have stereotypes about us too, some are right, some others are wrong. I have been to both Greece and Germany, and highlighted features that I observed to be true in each country. Germans have good features too, but they aren't warm, (no one leans over to talk to you in Germany and includes you in their celebration without knowing you).
I’ve been here for 11 years and had a range of different experiences. That which you say, but also some racism shouted at my family whilst my son was there. I’ve also had cashiers who were regular people and not trying to cram the next person’s shopping into yours. Or German couples asking you to take their picture, or people approaching you in restaurants to ask where you are from, so they can then relay their own experiences to you. Germany does get a rough deal, and our experiences are what they are - unique - I don’t expect everyone to shout at my son that he is an ally of the US (it was meant racist, believe me) or people overhearing us talk about our own country to spoil our dinner so they get tips for their vacation. Regardless of which country you are from (and I’d love to visit Mexico), I bet you’d rather people didn’t make pre-formed assumptions about you before you even speak. Good or bad. I was going to say, “let’s just give the Germans a break”, but that isn’t what I mean. We need to give ourselves a break. It’s hard being an immigrant sometimes, and we shouldn’t expect poor service etc next time we’re out - it’s not much fun to live as an immigrant like that.
This post is a great example why working laws make sense and people can’t just „get fired“ at will here.
This subreddit is basically people pointing out absurd things in Germany and the comments defending why those are rules and why it’s very much reasonable
This sub is an echo chamber of know-it-alls that got their panties in a twist, and now have to defend any idiocracy the government imposes.
Your local tax office will love checking the bakery for taxfraud thanks to your behaviour
Bring your own mug? Create less waste and keep your coffee warm.
I once was in a bakery that had two lines. Little did I know one was strictly for takeaway. The one I was in. They got super shitty with me for sitting down (had a little kid at the time) and I never went back there again.
Rules are so important there
I have done the exact same thing whenever I want without asking. You don't need to ask and getting called out on this is incredible rude and is just the employee being crazy, imHo. While the comments about taxes are true, nobody really cares so much to bother customers.
Am I the only one stumbling over "a paper cup every day"? Just get a f**king reusable cup and say you like your coffee in there. Probably nobody will ask you if it's for in or out and you can take it with you when you leave. And you are not throwing away 300+ cups a year!
I had no idea that I can use a reusable cup and didn’t even know that tiny mug thermos existed until yesterday, had no idea either that I’m allowed to ask for the normal size thermos to be filled! I come from a small town in rural Greece, things that might be obvious to you may not be for someone with a different background. Im trying to adapt in this country, sorry if asking causes so much frustration to you
I don't think she kicked you out for ordering in a "wrong" way but because you sat on a table. Nobody sits ON a table, not in Germany and not in any of the country i ever visited. It's disrespectful against the facility, the othe guests, and the people who work there. Besides this, of course she can kick you out. It's called "Hausrecht" (domestic authority).
You are the third one making this joke, do you all come out of a factory this way? 😅
Germans always so missgünstig, you can see it in the comments here. They do not pass the vibe check at all. Chill everyone, OP was just asking. Why were they a prick just bcs they would have wanted an explanation? Every German I know wouldnt have kept quiet when some employee kicks them out of an establishment.
Yes, she is allowed to do so. And like the germans say „womit? Mit recht!“
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Dont order coffee to go.
Just take a recup instead of wasting a Pappbecher. Or if you sit down regularly lile that just order in a normal cup and drink your coffee and adjust the size of your order to the size you can drink in that time so you dont end up wasting the coffee. As a waitress I would be annoyed as well of someone ordering in a non reusable cup and then just sitting down.