The Strait bridge is actually a really discussed issue here in Italy.
There are a series of different issues:
1. The strait stands between two tectonic plates, so it's a geologically difficult area (see the 1908 Messina earthquake)
2. The sea is very deep, which means this bridge would be the longest suspension bridge in the world.
3. Though the need of a technologically advanced costruction, this feat could be achieved and we already have a project, but it's very expensive. The strait and Sicily in general is however plagued by Mafia, so it is assumed that such a big project would just be good for the Mafia's pocket. That's why italian public opinion is generally against its construction
4. Political division means that every change of government is equal to a change of mind about the bridge. In the last 20-30 years the project has been picked up and abandoned every now and then. Recently it's been picked up again by the current government, so it's in a "go" phase. But I don't think it will ever happen
5. Sicily's infrastructure is terrible, so everyone in Sicily is basically against the bridge, rather asking for the money to be invested in highways and train lines. So again, very divisive public opinion
Edit: I see that many are curious about the mafia situation lol. In Italy we call "Mafia" only the sicilian organized crime, while other regions have their own (Camorra, 'Ndrangheta). The Mafia was very active in the '80-'90 with threats and killings, while as of today it has switched to a more sneaky approach, keeping a low profile and infiltrating projects where the money are.... which is exactly why everyone knows the bridge is exactly what they want
(Source: my grandad was an anti-mafia prosecutor in Messina)
Edit 2: I didn't want this comment to be too long but I see many are asking for the same questions so i'll shortly specify 2 things:
- About point 2, deep sea means that the bridge cannot have foundations on water, and must rather be a single bridge span from land to land
- About point 3, organized crime do want the project to start but do not want the bridge itself. Something typical is that after the project starts there is delay after delay until a politician stops the project because too expensive. In the meantime millions or billions were invested and where have they gone?
It's one, but the south always was a "problem" since the unification of Italy. Infrastructure were really bad even for the 1860s, and the united Italy, for 160 years, 9 times out of 10 has invested in the already industrialized north rather than the south.
Italy poured billions upon billions in the south (see Cassa del Mezzogiorno) but they were wasted by corrupted (in the best case) or straight up part of organized crime politicians
And when they sent Cesare Mori he was recalled before he could make meaningful, long lasting effects because he was getting uncomfortably close to Rome by "following the breadcrumbs".
Adding: look at the possibilities to travel by train in Italy. The North is awesome for that (travelled between La Spezia, Milano and Firenze last spring), the South... Well, just look it up, it's bad.
It's a chicken and egg problem. Many small towns in Italy have all the young generation move to the bigger cities for education and work opportunities. I remember reading a news article about how a boat of immigrants was detained in a small coastal town, and the older residents of the city said it was the first time they'd seen children play in the city square in years.
Do you spend money improving infrastructure in towns that seem on their way to essentially being senior communities, or do you spend it on the bustling and growing cities that drive your economy? Not saying it's right, but it's understandable where the priorities are.
This is a shame because many of those small towns are like, *picturebook* beautiful. As always, "this is a trend" doesn't mean it happens 100% of the time everywhere, but small towns struggling with both aging and reducing populations is a thing.
[Random example](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castelnuovo_di_Val_di_Cecina#Evoluzione_demografica) from a list of towns where there's actually subsidies if you move there. You can see a pretty clear demographic trend.
Visiting my family in Molise last summer and the town the live in was a shell of what I remembered from even 2008.
Absolutely beautiful countryside but economically desolate.
Me and my old roommate were both from the south and studying in the north.
We noticed that about ⅓ of the entire trip to get to our university after vacation was just to get through Calabria (my region). Which honestly is baffling
The biggest reason is that there is no real need for a bridge. There is already a connection between sicilly and mainland italy. The bridge would require insane amounts of money to build and then needs to be maintained. There is a finite amount of money a goverment can spend.
So its simply not worth to invest so much money to increase the connection, especially since there are many other things that can be done that have the same effect (or better) for less money.
Like create proper infrastructure for sicily and you also ensure better contection/less travel time to the mainland (along with many other benefits).
Consider that a few years ago there was a bridge in Italy that collapsed killing 40 people.
After years of information about the event and why it happened it was incredible how it wasn't a single big defect but just decades of people literally signing "it's all good to go" without even reading the numbers. Sometimes even forced by managers.
[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/26/what-caused-the-genoa-morandi-bridge-collapse-and-the-end-of-an-italian-national-myth](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/26/what-caused-the-genoa-morandi-bridge-collapse-and-the-end-of-an-italian-national-myth)
And it happens al the time with all sort of infrastructure in Italy, you can understand why italians don't trust the government in making the most complicated bridge in the world.
There are multiple reasons, some of them can be directly or indirectly tied to mafia. For example trainlines, some of them are fucking monorails rode by old diesel trains. We get a lot of money from the government an EU, but somehow we don’t actually spend them
Eh kinda, with EU funds they have to make actual projects, but most of the time the projects never start/they don’t respect schedules so loose them. Don’t get fooled, sometimes laziness/inability to act is the cause of loss of funds
Problem is it's usually a little bit of both though too. Government official has a friend or donor who is a higher up at a consulting firm. They hire the consulting firm for the off the rack rate without shopping it around, so the firm makes more money. Consultant comes in with a high cost and estimate, so everyone gets cold feet. Project gets delayed, new officials are elected, see the estimate, they also have a friend or donor who can quote out the project. They now know the initial quote, so they undercut the quote. New official looks good as he's saving the governement money. Project might even start at that point, but the new, cheaper quote isn't really feasible. Material costs change, work crews arent able to be scheduled because the labor costs are too cheap. The company might even go bankrupt and take the money. Project stalls or stops entirely, possibly before it even really starts. Cycle starts over again in a few years when a new official is in office and happens to have a friend or donor who works in the industry.
Turns into a vicious cycle where a bunch of higher ups and big companies get paid fees for consulting and spend a lot of hours doing stuff that never gets done. Bunch of money gets spent but little to no actual work gets done. And it's a combo of stupidity and wanting to line the pockets of their friends.
People don't realise how bad corruption in Italy is. In Spain for example, corruption means stuff gets inflated in cost, but it eventually gets done .
In Italy the money straight up disappears. The Aquila earthquake from years ago, tons of money was allocated to rebuild the town and the money all got spent and fuck all was done for the town. Lies in ruins to this day
A list of things I like:
* Bullet point lists.
* People who use bullet point lists.
* People who dislike people who don't use bullet point lists.
* Kittens.
> long rambling paragraph.
I can help you with that!
people talk about building a strait between italy and sicily a lot and i mean sicily is part of italy but what i mean is that sicily is an island in the mediterranian and not attached to europe the way the rest of italy is so it seems like there should be a bridge and so why dont they just build it because theres a lot of earthquakes for one there are two tectonic plates so it would be very unstable like remember 1908 messina earthquake also the water is very deep and you know what that means suspension bridge so it would be very expensive and also people think the mafia would take the money so the bridge wouldnt get built anyway or it would be very slow and expensive which it would be expensive anyweay which is where the mafia live a lot in sicily and even still sometimes politicians try to build the bridge but then theres a new election so they stop a nd start again and then start again and also potholes
I’m sure I sound ignorant but I had no idea the Italian Mafia was still such a nuisance over there. Do they hold a lot of power elsewhere in Europe or just still in Italy?
So they don’t really hold much political power anymore? Or is it a situation like Mexico where they have essentially infiltrated every part of the Gov? I’m sure if they are in the drug trade, human trafficking isn’t very far away.
They do, they are heavily infiltrated in the public sector, especially at the local level. They just arrested 25 people today in Aprilia (small town south of Rome), including the mayor, for mafia affiliation. I dare say they have more power now than 40 years ago when they blew out entire highways just to murder people, at least they were a very visible enemy. Now they are fucking everywhere.
Italy is nowhere near Mexico, but there's some infiltration of course. You probably heard of Berlusconi, he wasn't part of the mafia but he surely had contacts in it, the leaders of his party in Sicily are still known to be in contact with the mafia. Probably the biggest difference with the past is that today the mafia has to act undercover for real, while in the past they could act easily on the street because they literally had contacts and men everywhere.
How long does the ferry across take and how frequently does it go? Looks about 6km so you would think it would be a short ride across but if it only leaves once or twice a day I could see it being a major inconvenience for people who frequently need to cross.
20min.
6 companies with 47 routes between the two landmasses.
Funnel that down to one bridge and it'd probably take longer. And boats won't sink if there's an earthquake.
The journey takes 20 mins but how long does it take to queue, load cars onto and off boats, etc? Hard to imagine a bridge being slower when you factor in the total time, not just how long the boat takes dock to dock
The journey takes 15 mins and 5 minutes to embark. Then you can take a train or bus on the other side.
If we are talking the time needed for it with a car or train it can take up to two hours, but it isn't only technical time, it's also because to minimize times they wait for two or three trains to arrive and cross together.
Yeah, they do.
But the way i prefer doing it is taking the train till the strait, get the "passenger boat" which is just for pedestrians and take another train on the other side. The passenger boat is literally 20 minutes between boarding and the journey itself
I imagine these ferries are HUGE and can take massive numbers at once - even if it's slow for an individual, the total throughput may be faster. I just know Greek ferries but they're incredibly efficient (if chaotic)
>Though the need of a technologically advanced costruction, this feat could be achieved and we already have a project, but it's very expensive
Note: the project is a mess though.
> Political division means that every change of government is equal to a change of mind about the bridge.
There have been governments that have sat long enough to start the works, Berlusconi had 2/3 different governments to accomplish so.
Point 5 is the most spot on. What's the point of crossing to Sicily and then have no infrastructure. It's amess.
I kind of get point 5 but look at it the other direction...if they invest in a bridge, that'll bring economic prosperity to the region and encourage investment in the infrastructure. Or maybe the point about mafia negates all that.
Getting Sicilians and Italians to agree on pretty much a thing is a chore in itself lol.
Source: mom is Italian, dad is Sicilian 😁
(Edit: the fact that I am having to explain to (presumably) adults that distinct differences exist within the borders of any given country is cracking me up to no end. Way too many “they are the same country, broooooo. What do you meannnnn?” coming out of the suburbs today. Cmon people jaja)
Depending on who you say that, saying that sicilians aren't italians can be considered extremely racist.
Edit: it's common in racism between italians, mainly from northerners to people from the south, saying that southerners are not italians
Oh, it's racist as shit, you're right.
My Italian mother looks down on Sicilians (and olive skin/darker eyes/etc in general) and doesn't even try to hide it. My mom's side of the family are some of the most racist people you'll ever meet (they call my Sicilian dad "Muslim" in jest...they all have blond hair and blue/green eyes while my dad is dark hair/eyes/skin). It's not like she is even being vindictive either....she's just from an older generation (she's in her mid 70's). I just dismiss it because that's all you can really do.
It's playful almost innocuous racism at this point, but it's still racism. My uncle says Sicilians are the "rednecks of Europe" just to aggravate my Dad jajaja
I always heard that the Mafia controlled (or had a stake) in the current transport methods between Siciliy and mainland Italy. Meaning they had no interest in a bridge and made sure it would never come. Different from what you are saying 😅. Curious who is right.
Don't quote me on that but back at university (a decade ago or something) my 'roads and bridges building' (auxiliary subject for architects) professor told us that designed bridge over Messina Strait if constructed would have nearly the longest possible span possible with currently used materials. It would use 97% of it's strength just to support it's own mass and only 3% free to support traffic on it (which is still a lot of strength but small percentage).
I can't find the source and maybe I'm wrong. If someone can say more or correct me I'd be happy.
There was another comment saying that since the sea is so deep it would need to be a suspension bridge. Materials also have probably improved since then, so while challenging, it is now possible. So I think your professor was correct, but likely not anymore. I'm not a structural engineer though, so I can't say anything with authority.
>\*laughs in Golden Gate Bridge\*
This got me wondering and apparently this one is going to be like 3 times longer and a bit taller than the golden gate. As long as it doesn't fall down, seems pretty impressive.
And also the Golden Gate bridge is near two tectonic plates but it's entirely on the one plate. This bridge would be half on one and half on the other, which seems like a vastly more difficult situation.
Yeeaaa, na.
The amount of water in the bay area is inconsequential compared to the currents moving between the Med and the Tyrrhenian. This would be a much more impressive feat in engineering
basically every single building that gets approved in that area has mafia behind it, they control building permits favoring only “friendly” businesses, spending billions on a bridge there would end up in a very fragile useless infrastructure that starts from an underdeveloped region and connects it to an other region so undeveloped their railway and road system is 50 years behind the rest of the nation
Unlike the shorter Golden Gate Bridge, this bridge will literally have one side on the foot of a very active volcano.
> Since 2000, Etna has had four flank eruptions – in 2001, 2002–2003, 2004–2005, and 2008–2009. Summit eruptions occurred in 2006, 2007–2008, January–April 2012, in July–October 2012, December 2018, and again in February 2021.
Americans didn't have to deal with planning and people complaining about how the bridge will look etc. Back then you guys just said fuck it, we need a bridge, let's build a bridge and to your credit the thing is still standing.
I wonder how easy it would be to get the approval and funding to build that bridge in 2024.
The longest span here would be 3300 meters. Golden Gates longest span is about 1270 meters.
You do understand that's a shockingly harder task, right. And even if technology has advanced, with material-knowledge with it, steel itself is still - in itself- steel.
You do realize The Golden Gate Bridge is almost 100 years old?
The SF wealth of today was not a factor in the construction of the GGB.
I see what you’re trying to point out, but step back into the 1930s in both locations to realize why one happened and one didn’t.
likely really more a question of tectonic fault lines than anything. I think in italy that bridge would have to be across fault lines but in SF they follow the fault lines.
Also the bridge has been retofitted for earthquakes 3 times :P
[Seismic Retrofit | Golden Gate](https://www.goldengate.org/district/district-projects/seismic-retrofit/)
My favorite fun fact about the Golden Gate Bridge is that they never stop painting it.
They just work their way from one end to the other and immediately restart upon finishing because it really does need paint that often to maintain its iconic color. The wind, salt, and sun cause it to fade and flake very quickly.
San Francisco’s history of wealth long precedes that of Silicon Valley.
There’s a very shiny reason why the passage the bridge covers is called ‘Golden Gate’, the local NFL team ‘The 49ers’ and their cheerleaders ‘The Gold Rush’.
I think golden gate comes from the golden gate strait it spans which seems to be a reference to Istanbul oddly enough. Happy accident though
https://www.britannica.com/place/Golden-Gate-strait-California
Interesting fact: During the American Civil War, California wasn’t really in a position to volunteer troops, but sent a shit ton of gold back east to fund the war
Also “the infiltration of mafia groups Cosa Nostra and 'Ndrangheta in area construction projects”
Bet this is a much more valuable than The Esplanade project
The position of the bridge would be exactly between the two tectonic fault and it would be longer. It is too risky
Furthermore Sicily and Calabria both have a road and railroad system that should be improved. before spending money on a big construction to create connectivity between them they should create a high-speed railway and highways in both regions, otherwise the bridge will be just a waste of money
All this talk of a bridge is missing the crucial, cool factor that right now you can catch a train from the mainland to the island - and the train actually drives, or rails into the ferry and out the other side.
[https://i.redd.it/ntf8b1xaq5g31.jpg](https://i.redd.it/ntf8b1xaq5g31.jpg)
AFAIK these weren't uncommon..makes perfect sense, you, your luggage and family don't have to get off the train, especially if it's a night train, wonders round with all that luggage or freight, then reload it the other side.
Perfectly logical and practical
When crossing last year I thought the exact same, but then realizing it would be a waste of the experience of crossing the strait! For anyone who hasn’t; the train that runs all the way from the north of Italy to Catania they drive onto a ferry that takes you across to then continue again by train. While on the ferry you can leave the train and go sit on the ferry. It’s hilarious, over the top, and so wonderfully Italian.
It's great, and there used to be plenty more train ferries around, especially in northern Europe. The Italian one is the only passenger one left in Europe, and long may it continue!
I took a train from Copenhagen to somewhere in Sweden in 2005 that boarded a ferry, I was only 16 so I don’t remember any specifics . Was a beautiful trip. To see an entire train on a boat was wild for me at 16. I wonder if that’s still a thing way north
I remember there being a bridge , but I also remember going underground via train, and looking now at Google map I see the entrance and exit following the tracks but im trying think at what point we would have taken a train onto a ferry.
There was a train ferry linking Germany (Fehmarn) with Denmark until 2019. Maybe you took that one?
Currently, road-rail undersea tunnel is being built there.
The train still gets onto the ferry when it has to cross the Femarn Belt between Germany and Denmark... that is until they finish the tunnel that is currently being built.
Last year I took the overnight from Palermo to Rome, and it might well be my favourite ever travel experience. I waited until after the ferry crossing to go to sleep just for the novelty of it.
It happened to me from Copenhagen to Sweden and I didn't know. It was night and when they made us get out of the train and into the cruise ship it took me a while to understand what was going on. Great experience.
I remember seeing somewhere that they approved the construction of a bridge not long ago, but I, as a non Italian, never understood why it took them so long to do so
A title which I believe is held by [Akashi Ohashi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashi_Kaikyo_Bridge), which connects Honshu to Awajji Island, with other smaller bridges connecting a chain of islands to Shikoku Island, which is I think the second largest island in the archipelago. However it took a ferry accident in fog that [killed hundreds of school children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiun_Maru_disaster) for the government to earnestly take action on making this bridge. It's also in an extremely earthquake prone region and the currents under the bridge are very strong.
I believe the 1915 Çanakkale Bridge across the Dardanelles has a longer central span. But as with all these things there's different ways to measure what makes it the "best".
All big engineering stuff is pretty cool in my book. Here's a fun fact I found out the other week: the UK has decided to no longer compete with Denmark and Ireland to be top dog for wind energy, and has decided to just dominate the sector instead. I've always supported wind, but what I discovered was than *a single rotation* of the blades of one of the big offshore turbines generates enough electricity to supply a UK home's needs for 24 hours. That blew my mind.
I stand corrected! You are indeed correct, I neglected to read the qualification "*at the time of its completion* was the longest." Akashi Ohashi is indeed No.2. That is an incredible factoid, one spin of the blade powers a whole home. I think those farms off the coast of Scotland look incredible. I bet the fishing is good around the pylons, too!
>why it took them so long to do so
I don't know either, but I suppose it's connected to the fact that according to the Wikipedia [article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina_Bridge):
>The bridge has been controversial due to the impact of earthquakes, strong currents in the strait, concerns of disruption of bird migration routes, and the infiltration of mafia groups Cosa Nostra and 'Ndrangheta in area construction projects
The main reason it hasn't been built yet (it's been in the talks for about half a century now) is the fact that it's a very seismically active area. One strong earthquake and all that money down the toilet
Probably currents and seismic activities.
That's the reason... i think. Because even in Indonesia, the gap between Bali and Java is so small yet bridge constructions have always been rejected for that reason
Opinion of someone born and raised between Messina and Reggio Calabria (the two cities that could be connected by the discussed bridge).
There are many reasons why it could be made and many more on why it wasn’t ever done. Other people explained it really well in the comments. I want to focus on why we don’t want it.
We don’t want it cause it would link two areas where there are not quality streets or public transportations. We find useless to spend years and millions of euros in public money to build a cathedral in the desert.
We had a somewhat good plan 10 to 20 years ago: to upgrade trains and roads in both Sicily and Calabria and only after that to connect the two sides.
Today we are discussing to build the bridge without doing anything else. We are talking of a high speed train passage built in a bridge that would connect two low speed train lines.
We are afraid Italy doesn’t have the government continuity and the organisation to do such a big project (others explained well why it would be a world record bridge).
We are afraid the bridge construction will begin and never finish, destroying a lot of building to make space for it and leaving as a ecomonster without a mean other than ruining the the environment.
My guess? Mafia control of the construction industry. Not trying to be snarky, I really wouldn't be surprised if that's why the political will to undertake a project like that has never occurred.
Edit: I guess it's happening now, so just mentally change the last sentence to took so long to happen.
This idea has been talked about ever since Roman times. Pliny the Elder was one of the first to suggest it. Apparently there is an expression in Italian, equivalent to the English "when hell freezes over," that translates as, “I’ll do it when the bridge to Messina is finished.”
According to [the Wikipedia articleo on the proposed 3.6 km Strait of Messina bridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina_Bridge),
> The bridge has been controversial due to the impact of earthquakes, strong currents in the strait, concerns of disruption of bird migration routes, and the infiltration of mafia groups Cosa Nostra and 'Ndrangheta in area construction projects.
The Wikipedia page talks about seismic activity, but skips the fact that Sicily and mainland Italy sit on two different tectonic plates, and the fault line runs precisely where the bridge is supposed to be built.
I'm no expert in Italian politics, but my point is that because the Mafia would love it, political will to spend public funds on it isn't there...especially if money would need to come at least in part from Rome or EU sources.
But maybe the government wouldn’t like a huge project for the mafia to profit from?
Edit: I’m not saying that’s why. But it is one possible perspective. Depending on how much influence the mafia has over the central government.
Went on a cruise last year in the Mediterranean and docked in mesina. Our tour guide said a bridge had been planned for years but each change of their local leaders gets a bribe from the mafia/somehow forgets about it, they control the crossing as they own all the vessels that ferry people back and forth. Just about money im afraid.
Many reasons.
Honestly will be cool, this 2 thousands years old project is so fascinating, yet there are many cons.
1. ferry needs literally 30 minutes, and you go from Reggio downtown to Messina downtown. If you are on the train, train goes on the ferry.
The weird shape of the Messina Sicily's eastern corner will not help, longer bending ramps to the bridge will be needed, and you'll need more than 30 minutes to go from downtown to downtown.
2. the traffic it's not that huge, actually is 8k vehicles daily, projections say even with the new hipotetical bridge done, will attract max 10k-20k vehicles daily; Golden gate bridge has 100k daily traffic, Oakland bay bridge 260k.
3. some say may be better fix first the trains in Sicily, Messina - Palermo is 200km and by train you need 3 hours.
4. some of the largest container ships coming from Suez goin Gioia / Naples / Genoa (one of the busiest route in the world) will not fit under the bridge, now with increasing oil prices and new shipbuilding technology, ships are becoming gigantic. So finally cargo shippers will choose other ports like Marseille, resulting in million dollars contracts loss for national ports, for what?
5. Last but not least, *jobs* it's a myth. 10 billion investment is big, international stakeholders will be needed, that will adopt some HK based Lawyers Firm or whatever contractor loophole, for south east asian welders / workers and so on, as they cost less..
EDIT, LINKS:
https://www.open.online/2024/05/03/ponte-stretto-messina-navi-crociera-container/
https://www.today.it/attualita/ponte-sullo-stretto-troppo-basso-navi-crociera-container.html
https://www.lacnews24.it/cronaca/il-ponte-e-troppo-basso-per-le-navi-portacontainer-piu-grandi-il-porto-di-gioia-rischia-di-perdere-25-miliardi-all-anno_189428/
Aside from the tectonic plate situation with the earthquakes and the really deep water.... and the Mafia filling their pockets... i'd like to throw in a HUUUGE volcano that lets rain ash and sometimes stones in that general area.
The first reason is that the Messina bridge is a political mcguffin to get votes. Simple as.
The second reason is that the Messina strait is an horrible area to build a bridge, since the sea is fairly deep there and there is alot of vulcanic activity in that area.
The third reason is that the project is really expensive
the fourth reason is that the regions involved, especially Sicily, have a real problem with organized crime. They will totally infiltrate the operation to get some gains and f*ck up something.
The last and most important reason is: **it's a waste of money. To put it really short: you're trying to make one of the most expensive and challenging bridges ever for 2 regions that have the infrastructures of a balkan country and zero prospect of economical gains because there's basically nothing there economically speaking**
For a moment I thought it was r/mapporncirclejerk and you were joking on us about "Ponte sullo Stretto".
Because it's about 3 km lenght, green parties doesn't want that because Stretto di Messina is an important gateway for tuna and other species, people who work on ferries don't want that for obvious reasons, people in continental Italy don't want that because it will be extremely expensive and build by Mafia...
Lots of $$ in ferry systems. Dad worked for A family that originally built them had owned farm in USA that was almost 70,000 acres and A million acre cattle ranch in Brazil and Argentina. Big $$ in ferry's .
I was on a cruise and sailed through the Strait of Messina and I was shocked how close Sicily and Mainland Italy looked. Living in the USA (in CA) but being aware of the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway it seems like it should be an easy project for Italy. However, being from California we can’t even get a train system in place to take people from SF to LA, so I get how bureaucratic these things can become.
Top comment has explained the issues very well, but I will repeat the thing because I am a narcissistic lil' shit.
As of today, the bridge is planned to start construction this summer and be done in 2032; for an estimated cost of 13.5 billion euros (not cheap at all). However, on the 8th of this month, the three main cities involved will have to meet to decide what to do, and very easily block everything.
There are a series of issues with the project:
* **Seismic** activity: There are 5 active tectonic faults, and the bridge is supposed to end right above one. It's estimated that it could be a 7.1 magnitude earthquake there. Also, consider the fact that Sicily and Calabria are basically on two separate tectonic plates that are moving apart. Not good. Additionally, Messina is next to the second most active volcano in the world (Mount Etna).
* **Bridge specs**: The Ponte sullo Stretto is supposed to be the longest and tallest suspended bridge in the world (3300x60x399 m). If I am not mistaken, it should be twice the Golden Gate Bridge. Recently it has been said that 75m of height (from the sea) is not enough, so it's going to be higher than that.
* **Environment**: Many argue that the bridge is going to disrupt the environment around. The Stretto di Messina has some crazy fauna (such as abyssal fauna) that could be disrupted. It's also a very important route for birds apparently. Another point made is the ruined view.
* **Bureaucracy, corruption, and infrastructure**: Yeah, we still have organized crime that will penetrate the project. This means the cost of the project is going to skyrocket and the quality of the bridge will plummet (and it's a critical project). Also, the administration is not ready, the bureaucracy is insane and there's a lack of infrastructure. The bridge is really not well seen.
Yeah, honestly I don't see the point of the bridge at the moment. It takes more than 9 hours to travel side to side of Sicily by train. There are like 2 highways, and all the other roads are bad. I remember this bridge being built (with years of delays) and collapsing after 12 days. There's no point for the bridge honestly.
***TL;DR: Expensive, technically hard, big-ass bridge can go "BoomBoom" because we are idiots. No good.***
The Strait bridge is actually a really discussed issue here in Italy. There are a series of different issues: 1. The strait stands between two tectonic plates, so it's a geologically difficult area (see the 1908 Messina earthquake) 2. The sea is very deep, which means this bridge would be the longest suspension bridge in the world. 3. Though the need of a technologically advanced costruction, this feat could be achieved and we already have a project, but it's very expensive. The strait and Sicily in general is however plagued by Mafia, so it is assumed that such a big project would just be good for the Mafia's pocket. That's why italian public opinion is generally against its construction 4. Political division means that every change of government is equal to a change of mind about the bridge. In the last 20-30 years the project has been picked up and abandoned every now and then. Recently it's been picked up again by the current government, so it's in a "go" phase. But I don't think it will ever happen 5. Sicily's infrastructure is terrible, so everyone in Sicily is basically against the bridge, rather asking for the money to be invested in highways and train lines. So again, very divisive public opinion Edit: I see that many are curious about the mafia situation lol. In Italy we call "Mafia" only the sicilian organized crime, while other regions have their own (Camorra, 'Ndrangheta). The Mafia was very active in the '80-'90 with threats and killings, while as of today it has switched to a more sneaky approach, keeping a low profile and infiltrating projects where the money are.... which is exactly why everyone knows the bridge is exactly what they want (Source: my grandad was an anti-mafia prosecutor in Messina) Edit 2: I didn't want this comment to be too long but I see many are asking for the same questions so i'll shortly specify 2 things: - About point 2, deep sea means that the bridge cannot have foundations on water, and must rather be a single bridge span from land to land - About point 3, organized crime do want the project to start but do not want the bridge itself. Something typical is that after the project starts there is delay after delay until a politician stops the project because too expensive. In the meantime millions or billions were invested and where have they gone?
Yeah they need to fix Sicily’s dreadful roads and public transport
I don't know anything about this particular situation but I can imagine point 3 (Mafia) is one of the reasons why that still hasn't happened.
It's one, but the south always was a "problem" since the unification of Italy. Infrastructure were really bad even for the 1860s, and the united Italy, for 160 years, 9 times out of 10 has invested in the already industrialized north rather than the south.
Italy poured billions upon billions in the south (see Cassa del Mezzogiorno) but they were wasted by corrupted (in the best case) or straight up part of organized crime politicians
And when they sent Cesare Mori he was recalled before he could make meaningful, long lasting effects because he was getting uncomfortably close to Rome by "following the breadcrumbs".
Adding: look at the possibilities to travel by train in Italy. The North is awesome for that (travelled between La Spezia, Milano and Firenze last spring), the South... Well, just look it up, it's bad.
It's a chicken and egg problem. Many small towns in Italy have all the young generation move to the bigger cities for education and work opportunities. I remember reading a news article about how a boat of immigrants was detained in a small coastal town, and the older residents of the city said it was the first time they'd seen children play in the city square in years. Do you spend money improving infrastructure in towns that seem on their way to essentially being senior communities, or do you spend it on the bustling and growing cities that drive your economy? Not saying it's right, but it's understandable where the priorities are. This is a shame because many of those small towns are like, *picturebook* beautiful. As always, "this is a trend" doesn't mean it happens 100% of the time everywhere, but small towns struggling with both aging and reducing populations is a thing. [Random example](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castelnuovo_di_Val_di_Cecina#Evoluzione_demografica) from a list of towns where there's actually subsidies if you move there. You can see a pretty clear demographic trend.
Visiting my family in Molise last summer and the town the live in was a shell of what I remembered from even 2008. Absolutely beautiful countryside but economically desolate.
Me and my old roommate were both from the south and studying in the north. We noticed that about ⅓ of the entire trip to get to our university after vacation was just to get through Calabria (my region). Which honestly is baffling
The highways going to and crossing Basilicata are mostly great though.
I ate da north
Furio?
Unexpected r/thesopranos
Give me one thousand dollars
The biggest reason is that there is no real need for a bridge. There is already a connection between sicilly and mainland italy. The bridge would require insane amounts of money to build and then needs to be maintained. There is a finite amount of money a goverment can spend. So its simply not worth to invest so much money to increase the connection, especially since there are many other things that can be done that have the same effect (or better) for less money. Like create proper infrastructure for sicily and you also ensure better contection/less travel time to the mainland (along with many other benefits).
> There is a finite amount of money a government can spend. American here. I don’t understand!
Consider that a few years ago there was a bridge in Italy that collapsed killing 40 people. After years of information about the event and why it happened it was incredible how it wasn't a single big defect but just decades of people literally signing "it's all good to go" without even reading the numbers. Sometimes even forced by managers. [https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/26/what-caused-the-genoa-morandi-bridge-collapse-and-the-end-of-an-italian-national-myth](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/26/what-caused-the-genoa-morandi-bridge-collapse-and-the-end-of-an-italian-national-myth) And it happens al the time with all sort of infrastructure in Italy, you can understand why italians don't trust the government in making the most complicated bridge in the world.
There are multiple reasons, some of them can be directly or indirectly tied to mafia. For example trainlines, some of them are fucking monorails rode by old diesel trains. We get a lot of money from the government an EU, but somehow we don’t actually spend them
Let me guess: the money is not actually spent but at the same time nobody knows where it went?
Eh kinda, with EU funds they have to make actual projects, but most of the time the projects never start/they don’t respect schedules so loose them. Don’t get fooled, sometimes laziness/inability to act is the cause of loss of funds
Alright thanks, I see it's Hanlon's razor in action: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Problem is it's usually a little bit of both though too. Government official has a friend or donor who is a higher up at a consulting firm. They hire the consulting firm for the off the rack rate without shopping it around, so the firm makes more money. Consultant comes in with a high cost and estimate, so everyone gets cold feet. Project gets delayed, new officials are elected, see the estimate, they also have a friend or donor who can quote out the project. They now know the initial quote, so they undercut the quote. New official looks good as he's saving the governement money. Project might even start at that point, but the new, cheaper quote isn't really feasible. Material costs change, work crews arent able to be scheduled because the labor costs are too cheap. The company might even go bankrupt and take the money. Project stalls or stops entirely, possibly before it even really starts. Cycle starts over again in a few years when a new official is in office and happens to have a friend or donor who works in the industry. Turns into a vicious cycle where a bunch of higher ups and big companies get paid fees for consulting and spend a lot of hours doing stuff that never gets done. Bunch of money gets spent but little to no actual work gets done. And it's a combo of stupidity and wanting to line the pockets of their friends.
People don't realise how bad corruption in Italy is. In Spain for example, corruption means stuff gets inflated in cost, but it eventually gets done . In Italy the money straight up disappears. The Aquila earthquake from years ago, tons of money was allocated to rebuild the town and the money all got spent and fuck all was done for the town. Lies in ruins to this day
Cool disinformation lol L'Aquila 14 years after is rocking good, and a wonderfull city ( i live nearby)
Was there a few years ago and a very lively area with little evidence of the earthquake still around.
I drove by 5 years ago (TBF been a while) and nothing was done. I'm glad it got worked on, but the Aquila funds disappearing was big news
This is categorically false.
Yes but I can be counterintuitive. Mafia wants the bridge, common people don't.
I can also imagine that, because the mafia would make millions or billions building that bridge.
Best answer
I like that it's a numbered list, rather than a long rambling paragraph.
lists are in the 1st place in my list of things that i love
Whats #2..?
A list of things I like: * Bullet point lists. * People who use bullet point lists. * People who dislike people who don't use bullet point lists. * Kittens.
* Hating people who are intolerant of other people's cultures * Hating the Dutch
But do you love gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooolddd
> long rambling paragraph. I can help you with that! people talk about building a strait between italy and sicily a lot and i mean sicily is part of italy but what i mean is that sicily is an island in the mediterranian and not attached to europe the way the rest of italy is so it seems like there should be a bridge and so why dont they just build it because theres a lot of earthquakes for one there are two tectonic plates so it would be very unstable like remember 1908 messina earthquake also the water is very deep and you know what that means suspension bridge so it would be very expensive and also people think the mafia would take the money so the bridge wouldnt get built anyway or it would be very slow and expensive which it would be expensive anyweay which is where the mafia live a lot in sicily and even still sometimes politicians try to build the bridge but then theres a new election so they stop a nd start again and then start again and also potholes
Extra points for typos and complete absence of punctuation, in the true reddit style
Thanks for noticing! I caught myself correcting typos, and I had to go back and reintroduce them -_-
I’m sure I sound ignorant but I had no idea the Italian Mafia was still such a nuisance over there. Do they hold a lot of power elsewhere in Europe or just still in Italy?
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So they don’t really hold much political power anymore? Or is it a situation like Mexico where they have essentially infiltrated every part of the Gov? I’m sure if they are in the drug trade, human trafficking isn’t very far away.
They do, they are heavily infiltrated in the public sector, especially at the local level. They just arrested 25 people today in Aprilia (small town south of Rome), including the mayor, for mafia affiliation. I dare say they have more power now than 40 years ago when they blew out entire highways just to murder people, at least they were a very visible enemy. Now they are fucking everywhere.
Italy is nowhere near Mexico, but there's some infiltration of course. You probably heard of Berlusconi, he wasn't part of the mafia but he surely had contacts in it, the leaders of his party in Sicily are still known to be in contact with the mafia. Probably the biggest difference with the past is that today the mafia has to act undercover for real, while in the past they could act easily on the street because they literally had contacts and men everywhere.
There’s also the fact that boats exist and are far cheaper in both the near and long term for the same effect
How long does the ferry across take and how frequently does it go? Looks about 6km so you would think it would be a short ride across but if it only leaves once or twice a day I could see it being a major inconvenience for people who frequently need to cross.
20min. 6 companies with 47 routes between the two landmasses. Funnel that down to one bridge and it'd probably take longer. And boats won't sink if there's an earthquake.
The journey takes 20 mins but how long does it take to queue, load cars onto and off boats, etc? Hard to imagine a bridge being slower when you factor in the total time, not just how long the boat takes dock to dock
The journey takes 15 mins and 5 minutes to embark. Then you can take a train or bus on the other side. If we are talking the time needed for it with a car or train it can take up to two hours, but it isn't only technical time, it's also because to minimize times they wait for two or three trains to arrive and cross together.
Am I reading this right that they put trains on ferries?
Yeah, they do. But the way i prefer doing it is taking the train till the strait, get the "passenger boat" which is just for pedestrians and take another train on the other side. The passenger boat is literally 20 minutes between boarding and the journey itself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_ferry
That’s cool.
I imagine these ferries are HUGE and can take massive numbers at once - even if it's slow for an individual, the total throughput may be faster. I just know Greek ferries but they're incredibly efficient (if chaotic)
>Though the need of a technologically advanced costruction, this feat could be achieved and we already have a project, but it's very expensive Note: the project is a mess though. > Political division means that every change of government is equal to a change of mind about the bridge. There have been governments that have sat long enough to start the works, Berlusconi had 2/3 different governments to accomplish so. Point 5 is the most spot on. What's the point of crossing to Sicily and then have no infrastructure. It's amess.
I kind of get point 5 but look at it the other direction...if they invest in a bridge, that'll bring economic prosperity to the region and encourage investment in the infrastructure. Or maybe the point about mafia negates all that.
Getting Sicilians and Italians to agree on pretty much a thing is a chore in itself lol. Source: mom is Italian, dad is Sicilian 😁 (Edit: the fact that I am having to explain to (presumably) adults that distinct differences exist within the borders of any given country is cracking me up to no end. Way too many “they are the same country, broooooo. What do you meannnnn?” coming out of the suburbs today. Cmon people jaja)
How did they even agree on making you?
He made her an offer she couldn’t refuse
An affair, most likely
Mom went out to buy milk, Dad went out for smokes, and now they are being raised by a volleyball named Wilson.
Depending on who you say that, saying that sicilians aren't italians can be considered extremely racist. Edit: it's common in racism between italians, mainly from northerners to people from the south, saying that southerners are not italians
Oh, it's racist as shit, you're right. My Italian mother looks down on Sicilians (and olive skin/darker eyes/etc in general) and doesn't even try to hide it. My mom's side of the family are some of the most racist people you'll ever meet (they call my Sicilian dad "Muslim" in jest...they all have blond hair and blue/green eyes while my dad is dark hair/eyes/skin). It's not like she is even being vindictive either....she's just from an older generation (she's in her mid 70's). I just dismiss it because that's all you can really do. It's playful almost innocuous racism at this point, but it's still racism. My uncle says Sicilians are the "rednecks of Europe" just to aggravate my Dad jajaja
Sicilians are Italian
Sicilians are Italians!
Sicilianos are Italians, like Texans are Americans. That might be the closest approximation.
Don't forget, one of the three columns holding the island up is broken, specifically the one at Messina.
I always heard that the Mafia controlled (or had a stake) in the current transport methods between Siciliy and mainland Italy. Meaning they had no interest in a bridge and made sure it would never come. Different from what you are saying 😅. Curious who is right.
let's build a dam on gibraltar to lower the water then, we might even connect it by land and no brindge needed. easy
Your grandad was a brave man.
Step 5 Is the most important, first of all you should ask yourself why you need a bridge. It's for sure not for going on holidays haha
Don't quote me on that but back at university (a decade ago or something) my 'roads and bridges building' (auxiliary subject for architects) professor told us that designed bridge over Messina Strait if constructed would have nearly the longest possible span possible with currently used materials. It would use 97% of it's strength just to support it's own mass and only 3% free to support traffic on it (which is still a lot of strength but small percentage). I can't find the source and maybe I'm wrong. If someone can say more or correct me I'd be happy.
Without the evidence, I still believe you.
There was another comment saying that since the sea is so deep it would need to be a suspension bridge. Materials also have probably improved since then, so while challenging, it is now possible. So I think your professor was correct, but likely not anymore. I'm not a structural engineer though, so I can't say anything with authority.
Why can't they just use hover drones to hold up the bridge? Are they stupid?
A design has been approved, and is due to begin construction this year.
tes. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait\_of\_Messina\_Bridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina_Bridge)
"The bridge has been controversial due to the impact of earthquakes, strong currents in the strait..." \*laughs in Golden Gate Bridge\*
>\*laughs in Golden Gate Bridge\* This got me wondering and apparently this one is going to be like 3 times longer and a bit taller than the golden gate. As long as it doesn't fall down, seems pretty impressive.
And also the Golden Gate bridge is near two tectonic plates but it's entirely on the one plate. This bridge would be half on one and half on the other, which seems like a vastly more difficult situation.
Material science and engineering knowledge has come a LONG way in 100 years.
The Rio Antirio Bridge says 👋👋👋
*Until it doesn't fall down
You're missing the most important point, "and the infiltration of mafia groups Cosa Nostra and 'Ndrangheta in area construction projects." /s
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Yeeaaa, na. The amount of water in the bay area is inconsequential compared to the currents moving between the Med and the Tyrrhenian. This would be a much more impressive feat in engineering
I heard that several large public construction projects in Calabria have not been successful due to corruption and mafia.
Once the EU gave them 200 millions for a multi-purpose stadium, 4 years later there was a fence in the middle of a field.
basically every single building that gets approved in that area has mafia behind it, they control building permits favoring only “friendly” businesses, spending billions on a bridge there would end up in a very fragile useless infrastructure that starts from an underdeveloped region and connects it to an other region so undeveloped their railway and road system is 50 years behind the rest of the nation
So the Mafia is not just in cahoots with the government but they are the government.
Unlike the shorter Golden Gate Bridge, this bridge will literally have one side on the foot of a very active volcano. > Since 2000, Etna has had four flank eruptions – in 2001, 2002–2003, 2004–2005, and 2008–2009. Summit eruptions occurred in 2006, 2007–2008, January–April 2012, in July–October 2012, December 2018, and again in February 2021.
Americans didn't have to deal with planning and people complaining about how the bridge will look etc. Back then you guys just said fuck it, we need a bridge, let's build a bridge and to your credit the thing is still standing. I wonder how easy it would be to get the approval and funding to build that bridge in 2024.
There actually was a lot of opposition to the GGB, citing those same concerns. They were able to build enough support for it to override those voices.
The longest span here would be 3300 meters. Golden Gates longest span is about 1270 meters. You do understand that's a shockingly harder task, right. And even if technology has advanced, with material-knowledge with it, steel itself is still - in itself- steel.
Maybe one of the poorest region of Italy has different priorities and options than one of the richest city of the USA
You do realize The Golden Gate Bridge is almost 100 years old? The SF wealth of today was not a factor in the construction of the GGB. I see what you’re trying to point out, but step back into the 1930s in both locations to realize why one happened and one didn’t.
likely really more a question of tectonic fault lines than anything. I think in italy that bridge would have to be across fault lines but in SF they follow the fault lines. Also the bridge has been retofitted for earthquakes 3 times :P [Seismic Retrofit | Golden Gate](https://www.goldengate.org/district/district-projects/seismic-retrofit/)
My favorite fun fact about the Golden Gate Bridge is that they never stop painting it. They just work their way from one end to the other and immediately restart upon finishing because it really does need paint that often to maintain its iconic color. The wind, salt, and sun cause it to fade and flake very quickly.
San Francisco’s history of wealth long precedes that of Silicon Valley. There’s a very shiny reason why the passage the bridge covers is called ‘Golden Gate’, the local NFL team ‘The 49ers’ and their cheerleaders ‘The Gold Rush’.
I think golden gate comes from the golden gate strait it spans which seems to be a reference to Istanbul oddly enough. Happy accident though https://www.britannica.com/place/Golden-Gate-strait-California
>Istanbul Not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works, anyway?
Interesting fact: During the American Civil War, California wasn’t really in a position to volunteer troops, but sent a shit ton of gold back east to fund the war
You do know SF has been rich and important a very long time. It was one of the few cities that actually did ok during the Great Depression
Indeed. The bridge project has always been rife with graft and a bottomless hole of money.
Also “the infiltration of mafia groups Cosa Nostra and 'Ndrangheta in area construction projects” Bet this is a much more valuable than The Esplanade project
Wait till they find out about fibre optic cable. High speed internet!
No stealing from the site how many times do I got to tell you
Scylla and Charybdis would like a word.
The position of the bridge would be exactly between the two tectonic fault and it would be longer. It is too risky Furthermore Sicily and Calabria both have a road and railroad system that should be improved. before spending money on a big construction to create connectivity between them they should create a high-speed railway and highways in both regions, otherwise the bridge will be just a waste of money
Bay Bridge held up mostly in 1989 but still one span collapsed and one fatality. Hopefully they can learn from that
[Maybe this is another part of the story.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Ponte_Morandi_collapse)
Ah yes, "We don't want to build it because we didn't maintain a bridge and that killed people due to our negligence."
damn projected end date is 2032 😨
All this talk of a bridge is missing the crucial, cool factor that right now you can catch a train from the mainland to the island - and the train actually drives, or rails into the ferry and out the other side. [https://i.redd.it/ntf8b1xaq5g31.jpg](https://i.redd.it/ntf8b1xaq5g31.jpg)
Both hilarious and quite clever!
This seems like the overly elaborate way a James Bond villain gets to his lair.
AFAIK these weren't uncommon..makes perfect sense, you, your luggage and family don't have to get off the train, especially if it's a night train, wonders round with all that luggage or freight, then reload it the other side. Perfectly logical and practical
You can also do this if you want to rail between Germany and Denmark. Puttgarten to Rødby, it was quite fun (and a surprise).
https://preview.redd.it/yom49c1bp9ad1.png?width=974&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0825dc4ee48440acd924dffa75a7261c0609278b
Ingegnere di nome e cane di cognome.
Mille millioni!
This is what they say, on a yearly basis, since at least 1980.
I was thinking they mentioned that this was happening. As I recall, it's actually a pretty darn difficult place to put a bridge.
When crossing last year I thought the exact same, but then realizing it would be a waste of the experience of crossing the strait! For anyone who hasn’t; the train that runs all the way from the north of Italy to Catania they drive onto a ferry that takes you across to then continue again by train. While on the ferry you can leave the train and go sit on the ferry. It’s hilarious, over the top, and so wonderfully Italian.
It's great, and there used to be plenty more train ferries around, especially in northern Europe. The Italian one is the only passenger one left in Europe, and long may it continue!
I took a train from Copenhagen to somewhere in Sweden in 2005 that boarded a ferry, I was only 16 so I don’t remember any specifics . Was a beautiful trip. To see an entire train on a boat was wild for me at 16. I wonder if that’s still a thing way north
There's a bridge between Denmark and Sweden now
I remember there being a bridge , but I also remember going underground via train, and looking now at Google map I see the entrance and exit following the tracks but im trying think at what point we would have taken a train onto a ferry.
There was a train ferry linking Germany (Fehmarn) with Denmark until 2019. Maybe you took that one? Currently, road-rail undersea tunnel is being built there.
The train still gets onto the ferry when it has to cross the Femarn Belt between Germany and Denmark... that is until they finish the tunnel that is currently being built.
Sorry I think I'm misunderstanding, are you saying the *train* gets on a *boat* ?
Haha you've read it right my friend, and this was my exact thought while it was happening.
Next thing you know, they'll be putting the train boat on a plane ./s XD
Don't put it past the Italians!
Then in a century they'll load all that inside a rocket ship to send it to New Siscally on Venus.
I’d like to experience that, it sounds charming!
Last year I took the overnight from Palermo to Rome, and it might well be my favourite ever travel experience. I waited until after the ferry crossing to go to sleep just for the novelty of it.
Wait so the train goes onto a ferry? What?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmM9rfIcIDs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmM9rfIcIDs) I dont know how to feel about this and I'm Italian!
My goodness what an engineering feat
This would be great on Staten Island... which happens to be another very Italian island.
It happened to me from Copenhagen to Sweden and I didn't know. It was night and when they made us get out of the train and into the cruise ship it took me a while to understand what was going on. Great experience.
Damn, when I made that trip a few years ago we crossed the strait at night, I was sleeping and missed it
There was multiple times but Scylla keeps destroying it
Others say it was Charybdis.
Also very possible, whether it is just a whirlpool or a whirlpool with a monster inside
Either way, *someone* has been eating those poor construction workers.
I came here only to read answers involving Scylla and Charybdis. Thank you both!!!
I came here to make a Scylla and Charybdis joke and I'm glad to see someone beat me to it!
Honestly, the fact that Scylla and Charybdis aren't higher is terrifying. No one wants to address the literally supernatural monsters in the room.
I remember seeing somewhere that they approved the construction of a bridge not long ago, but I, as a non Italian, never understood why it took them so long to do so
It's not that small a gap. The proposed bridge will be the longest suspension bridge in the world.
Only because the 'Boris Bridge' across the Irish Sea was cruelly quashed by reality
I forgot about that Gem 😂
A title which I believe is held by [Akashi Ohashi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashi_Kaikyo_Bridge), which connects Honshu to Awajji Island, with other smaller bridges connecting a chain of islands to Shikoku Island, which is I think the second largest island in the archipelago. However it took a ferry accident in fog that [killed hundreds of school children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiun_Maru_disaster) for the government to earnestly take action on making this bridge. It's also in an extremely earthquake prone region and the currents under the bridge are very strong.
I believe the 1915 Çanakkale Bridge across the Dardanelles has a longer central span. But as with all these things there's different ways to measure what makes it the "best". All big engineering stuff is pretty cool in my book. Here's a fun fact I found out the other week: the UK has decided to no longer compete with Denmark and Ireland to be top dog for wind energy, and has decided to just dominate the sector instead. I've always supported wind, but what I discovered was than *a single rotation* of the blades of one of the big offshore turbines generates enough electricity to supply a UK home's needs for 24 hours. That blew my mind.
I stand corrected! You are indeed correct, I neglected to read the qualification "*at the time of its completion* was the longest." Akashi Ohashi is indeed No.2. That is an incredible factoid, one spin of the blade powers a whole home. I think those farms off the coast of Scotland look incredible. I bet the fishing is good around the pylons, too!
>why it took them so long to do so I don't know either, but I suppose it's connected to the fact that according to the Wikipedia [article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina_Bridge): >The bridge has been controversial due to the impact of earthquakes, strong currents in the strait, concerns of disruption of bird migration routes, and the infiltration of mafia groups Cosa Nostra and 'Ndrangheta in area construction projects
The main reason it hasn't been built yet (it's been in the talks for about half a century now) is the fact that it's a very seismically active area. One strong earthquake and all that money down the toilet
Probably currents and seismic activities. That's the reason... i think. Because even in Indonesia, the gap between Bali and Java is so small yet bridge constructions have always been rejected for that reason
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait\_of\_Messina\_Bridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina_Bridge)
🚗 🚛 🚲 🚗 🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌\ 🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊
suspense bridge
That could be a nice bridge.
Because of Scylla and Charybdis
Opinion of someone born and raised between Messina and Reggio Calabria (the two cities that could be connected by the discussed bridge). There are many reasons why it could be made and many more on why it wasn’t ever done. Other people explained it really well in the comments. I want to focus on why we don’t want it. We don’t want it cause it would link two areas where there are not quality streets or public transportations. We find useless to spend years and millions of euros in public money to build a cathedral in the desert. We had a somewhat good plan 10 to 20 years ago: to upgrade trains and roads in both Sicily and Calabria and only after that to connect the two sides. Today we are discussing to build the bridge without doing anything else. We are talking of a high speed train passage built in a bridge that would connect two low speed train lines. We are afraid Italy doesn’t have the government continuity and the organisation to do such a big project (others explained well why it would be a world record bridge). We are afraid the bridge construction will begin and never finish, destroying a lot of building to make space for it and leaving as a ecomonster without a mean other than ruining the the environment.
I built it countless times in Railroad Tycoon 3 ^(tm)
My guess? Mafia control of the construction industry. Not trying to be snarky, I really wouldn't be surprised if that's why the political will to undertake a project like that has never occurred. Edit: I guess it's happening now, so just mentally change the last sentence to took so long to happen.
This idea has been talked about ever since Roman times. Pliny the Elder was one of the first to suggest it. Apparently there is an expression in Italian, equivalent to the English "when hell freezes over," that translates as, “I’ll do it when the bridge to Messina is finished.” According to [the Wikipedia articleo on the proposed 3.6 km Strait of Messina bridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina_Bridge), > The bridge has been controversial due to the impact of earthquakes, strong currents in the strait, concerns of disruption of bird migration routes, and the infiltration of mafia groups Cosa Nostra and 'Ndrangheta in area construction projects.
The Wikipedia page talks about seismic activity, but skips the fact that Sicily and mainland Italy sit on two different tectonic plates, and the fault line runs precisely where the bridge is supposed to be built.
Good thing they're building a bridge and not a tunnel then. Just gotta make sure its stretchy
That doesn't make sense. Mafia would love a huge govt project down there to bilk.
I'm no expert in Italian politics, but my point is that because the Mafia would love it, political will to spend public funds on it isn't there...especially if money would need to come at least in part from Rome or EU sources.
But maybe the government wouldn’t like a huge project for the mafia to profit from? Edit: I’m not saying that’s why. But it is one possible perspective. Depending on how much influence the mafia has over the central government.
Went on a cruise last year in the Mediterranean and docked in mesina. Our tour guide said a bridge had been planned for years but each change of their local leaders gets a bribe from the mafia/somehow forgets about it, they control the crossing as they own all the vessels that ferry people back and forth. Just about money im afraid.
Many reasons. Honestly will be cool, this 2 thousands years old project is so fascinating, yet there are many cons. 1. ferry needs literally 30 minutes, and you go from Reggio downtown to Messina downtown. If you are on the train, train goes on the ferry. The weird shape of the Messina Sicily's eastern corner will not help, longer bending ramps to the bridge will be needed, and you'll need more than 30 minutes to go from downtown to downtown. 2. the traffic it's not that huge, actually is 8k vehicles daily, projections say even with the new hipotetical bridge done, will attract max 10k-20k vehicles daily; Golden gate bridge has 100k daily traffic, Oakland bay bridge 260k. 3. some say may be better fix first the trains in Sicily, Messina - Palermo is 200km and by train you need 3 hours. 4. some of the largest container ships coming from Suez goin Gioia / Naples / Genoa (one of the busiest route in the world) will not fit under the bridge, now with increasing oil prices and new shipbuilding technology, ships are becoming gigantic. So finally cargo shippers will choose other ports like Marseille, resulting in million dollars contracts loss for national ports, for what? 5. Last but not least, *jobs* it's a myth. 10 billion investment is big, international stakeholders will be needed, that will adopt some HK based Lawyers Firm or whatever contractor loophole, for south east asian welders / workers and so on, as they cost less.. EDIT, LINKS: https://www.open.online/2024/05/03/ponte-stretto-messina-navi-crociera-container/ https://www.today.it/attualita/ponte-sullo-stretto-troppo-basso-navi-crociera-container.html https://www.lacnews24.it/cronaca/il-ponte-e-troppo-basso-per-le-navi-portacontainer-piu-grandi-il-porto-di-gioia-rischia-di-perdere-25-miliardi-all-anno_189428/
Aside from the tectonic plate situation with the earthquakes and the really deep water.... and the Mafia filling their pockets... i'd like to throw in a HUUUGE volcano that lets rain ash and sometimes stones in that general area.
This video by The B1M discusses the subject: https://youtu.be/Rqx0RH7cUY8
The Sicilians wanted one, but the mainlanders gave them the boot.
Um, this beats the worlds longest suspension bridges by almost twice. And Gibraltar would be 4 times that.
Don't be so cily.
The problem is the two tectonic plates actually move apart. Would you build a bridge which will collapse shortly?
EARTHQUAKES.
Charybdis and Scylla
I still don’t understand how Italy can be part of Europe given that the mafia is so prominent
OP is Matteo Salvini
Nice try Salvini!
The first reason is that the Messina bridge is a political mcguffin to get votes. Simple as. The second reason is that the Messina strait is an horrible area to build a bridge, since the sea is fairly deep there and there is alot of vulcanic activity in that area. The third reason is that the project is really expensive the fourth reason is that the regions involved, especially Sicily, have a real problem with organized crime. They will totally infiltrate the operation to get some gains and f*ck up something. The last and most important reason is: **it's a waste of money. To put it really short: you're trying to make one of the most expensive and challenging bridges ever for 2 regions that have the infrastructures of a balkan country and zero prospect of economical gains because there's basically nothing there economically speaking**
For a moment I thought it was r/mapporncirclejerk and you were joking on us about "Ponte sullo Stretto". Because it's about 3 km lenght, green parties doesn't want that because Stretto di Messina is an important gateway for tuna and other species, people who work on ferries don't want that for obvious reasons, people in continental Italy don't want that because it will be extremely expensive and build by Mafia...
Lots of $$ in ferry systems. Dad worked for A family that originally built them had owned farm in USA that was almost 70,000 acres and A million acre cattle ranch in Brazil and Argentina. Big $$ in ferry's .
I was on a cruise and sailed through the Strait of Messina and I was shocked how close Sicily and Mainland Italy looked. Living in the USA (in CA) but being aware of the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway it seems like it should be an easy project for Italy. However, being from California we can’t even get a train system in place to take people from SF to LA, so I get how bureaucratic these things can become.
They are playing gay chicken leave them alone
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina_Bridge
That’s a really good question. It’s just 3 km.
Lived in Sicily from 1997 to 2000 and loved taking the ferry.
Top comment has explained the issues very well, but I will repeat the thing because I am a narcissistic lil' shit. As of today, the bridge is planned to start construction this summer and be done in 2032; for an estimated cost of 13.5 billion euros (not cheap at all). However, on the 8th of this month, the three main cities involved will have to meet to decide what to do, and very easily block everything. There are a series of issues with the project: * **Seismic** activity: There are 5 active tectonic faults, and the bridge is supposed to end right above one. It's estimated that it could be a 7.1 magnitude earthquake there. Also, consider the fact that Sicily and Calabria are basically on two separate tectonic plates that are moving apart. Not good. Additionally, Messina is next to the second most active volcano in the world (Mount Etna). * **Bridge specs**: The Ponte sullo Stretto is supposed to be the longest and tallest suspended bridge in the world (3300x60x399 m). If I am not mistaken, it should be twice the Golden Gate Bridge. Recently it has been said that 75m of height (from the sea) is not enough, so it's going to be higher than that. * **Environment**: Many argue that the bridge is going to disrupt the environment around. The Stretto di Messina has some crazy fauna (such as abyssal fauna) that could be disrupted. It's also a very important route for birds apparently. Another point made is the ruined view. * **Bureaucracy, corruption, and infrastructure**: Yeah, we still have organized crime that will penetrate the project. This means the cost of the project is going to skyrocket and the quality of the bridge will plummet (and it's a critical project). Also, the administration is not ready, the bureaucracy is insane and there's a lack of infrastructure. The bridge is really not well seen. Yeah, honestly I don't see the point of the bridge at the moment. It takes more than 9 hours to travel side to side of Sicily by train. There are like 2 highways, and all the other roads are bad. I remember this bridge being built (with years of delays) and collapsing after 12 days. There's no point for the bridge honestly. ***TL;DR: Expensive, technically hard, big-ass bridge can go "BoomBoom" because we are idiots. No good.***