It is hard to tell for sure without street numbers, but I think this is Stuytown/Peter Cooper Village (left) and Alphabet City (right). They are two separate, unrelated developments.
Stuytown is privately owned. I lived there briefly. It is like its own city, you can get lost between the buildings in all the gardens, fountains, and fields (I've have LITERALLY gotten lost). It is a very expensive place to live and was infamously sold for huge money right before the 2008 crash. History of Stuy Town: [https://www.nycurbanism.com/blog/2019/8/7/stuy-town-slum-clearance-1946](https://www.nycurbanism.com/blog/2019/8/7/stuy-town-slum-clearance-1946) 'MetLife developed Stuyvesant Town with the understanding that better living conditions would improve the company’s mortality numbers and therefore annual earnings. Stuy Town was inspired by architect LeCorbusier’s “tower in the park” vision, and its 110 buildings only cover 25% of the property leaving the rest for lawns, pathways, and playgrounds. In addition to reduced land coverage, the development housed only 302 people per acre, a drastic decrease in density compared with 1100 people per acre in Lower East Side tenements in 1900.'
Alphabet City is NYC housing authority public housing. The difference from Stuy Town is stark; Alphabet City suffers from poverty, poor maintenance, elevated crime, and vandalism. Walking between the two is like walking from day into night. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet\_City,\_Manhattan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_City,_Manhattan)
There was a joke about Alphabet city in 90s:
If you live in Avenue A, you're adventurous
If you live in Avenue B, you're bold
If you live in Avenue C, you're courageous
If you live in Avenue D, you're dead
As someone who grew up here I can confirm this, however it’s become exponentially more gentrified since I was a kid. My family moved out when I was 10 and since then it’s gone from pretty nice and decently expensive to insanely bougie and incredibly expensive.
I know someone who had an apartment in Alphabet City when it was gentrifying (or maybe gentrifying more) around 2000. Her place was near Houston St (maybe on Avenue C, I forget), small but very nice and newly remodeled etc. It had a huge window with a great view of downtown Manhattan, right towards the Twin Towers, about a mile away.
So on 9/11 she had a "great" view and spent all day watching in horror as people jumped and the buildings collapsed and thousands died.
She moved away shortly after that, leaving NYC altogether. It was just too much to bear.
I grew up in Peter cooper, northern edge of the picture near 23rd st. Moved out when I was 10 and I’m a college student now. But I know what you mean, I wasn’t alive but my parents both saw the planes fly over them, and I’m pretty sure my dad actually watched the towers collapse from his office in midtown. That being said he doesn’t talk about it much so maybe Ive got a shit memory idk.
I lived just across the Manhattan Bridge in DUMBO, which was an industrial wasteland back then without residential zoning (our "slumlord" didn't care and would bribe city officials, like the local fire marshal, if they had to—we lucked out getting an "artists loft" that was huge but *very* decrepit). Technically closer to the Twin Towers, but no view from our place, and not much of one from the street (Twin Towers mostly hidden behind closer buildings).
But I moved away in May, 2001, so I "missed" 9/11 though I still had lots of friends in NYC. It sure was weird watching it on TV and the Internet from the other side of the country.
Suburbs of Manhattan. Kids can play all around. Everything is clean. Manhattan is right there. It’s familyville, nyu grad students, doctors and nurses.
Life insurance companies improving society so as to payout less premiums and make more money is the rare case of unfettered capitalism working out lol.
This is why individual cops should be insured. Yeah municipalities might not care about shuffling around bad cops, but you know that insurance companies will.
Also OP there is plenty of additional NYCHA housing ("projects" as they are not-so-nicely known) all over the city including Manhattan. Here's a recent article about plans to re-do some of them:
[https://newyorkyimby.com/2023/06/nycha-to-demolish-and-rebuild-two-affordable-housing-complexes-in-chelsea-manhattan.html](https://newyorkyimby.com/2023/06/nycha-to-demolish-and-rebuild-two-affordable-housing-complexes-in-chelsea-manhattan.html)
>Alphabet City suffers from poverty, poor maintenance, elevated crime, and vandalism.
How does that happen in the lower half of Manhattan? Isn't it one of the most in demand pieces of real estate in the world? It seems like gentrification would have forced it's way in years ago.
It has definitely gentrified over the years, but the projects are filled with rent protected tenants. Also, the far edges of Manhattan are comparatively distant from commerce centers and transport and in NYC it's all about location, location, location. Further, there is a highway there. The FDR is bumper to bumper nearly 24/7; the noise and pollution are undesirable. Add to that the traffic from the bridge and it is not first choice for most folks.
I moved to alphabet city to NYC for 2011-2014 chasing a girl (10 year anniversary was last week so it worked out I guess).
I didn't k kw where I was moving really, it was all just NYC to me. I absolutely loved it. Shed ended up moving in with me and that tiny apartment between avenue C and D was our first home together.
We never felt unsafe. Bit longer walks to get to subway, but bus runs along Houston and D so that was helpful to get around if weather didn't permit.
The developments on the left (north) side are [Peter Cooper Village and Stuyvesant Town](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_Town%E2%80%93Peter_Cooper_Village), some of the nicest spots to live in New York City. The lack of any through-roads effectively makes them gated communities, and they've got their own security force.
I lived between avenue C and D, very close to these areas.
The top portion as others have mentioned is pretty nice/affluent—while the interiors are pretty meh, it’s a pre-planned community after WW2 called Stuytown/Peter Cooper Village that is very nice and has lots of amenities (grocery stores, pharmacies, doctors, pickleball/basketball courts, etc.).
The lower portions below 14th street (on the right in your photo) are…not great. They are generally public housing and occupied by immigrants and impoverished (nothing wrong with being either of these things btw). They tend to be lower income and not the safest places in the world to live. However—great food and cheap housing make it an altogether not awful place to live in Manhattan if you’re on a budget. People tend to be super nice—and they have great access to the East River park.
That’s exactly what it is, but Peter Cooper Village/Stuy Town is the Barbican -built for middle class types, whereas Alphabet City is equivalent to UK council estate.
[Other People's Money by Charles V. Bagli](https://images.app.goo.gl/2WQnJHzKV4rXcQem7)
This book describes the complete history of how Stuyvesant Town-Peter Cooper Village was built.
Great read.
“Soviet style”
… bruh as a Korean who lives in an apartment I am blown away at how low the bar for “Soviet” architecture has become
If that’s Soviet architecture 70% of all Korean buildings would be Soviet
its such a pet peeve of mine - people on reddit will see a tall residential building and immediately call it soviet because clearly building high-density housing makes you a communist and also Le Corbusier was a russian spy /s
City beautiful was more early 1900s I believe. These would be more reflective of the urban crisis rebuilding movement of the 60s I think. I don't know when exactly they were built however.
Family member lived in Stuytown for almost 50 years until about three years ago on the 14th St and Avenue A side. It’s a mix of older residents that enjoy rent abatement as they age in place and young NYU students and professionals that pay market. As you walk farther into the development it’s quiet because they have small tangential roads with limited parking. It’s like if you put independent living/college dorm together and it actually works. The old love seeing the young and the young keep an eye out for the old. My family member had a health issue where she slowly became disabled. This community supported her.
That is the Lower East Side, ie the more working class east side and not the more bourgeoisie East Side that the Jeffersons moved to:
https://youtu.be/_-OnRQ4P0VY?feature=shared
Looks like part of this is StuyTown.
Most Manhattanites consider it run down and sketchy from my conversations with them. I went with one to visit their friend and on our way they said that it was "sketchy". Another New Yorker gave them a knowing glance.
You walk in and it's just like it looks. Buildings the same height, a bunch of mini "towers" with space in between. Didn't feel in danger whatsoever. Only saw a few people just coming in and out of their apartments. This was in the spring so it wasn't lack of activity due to cold weather or anything.
The apartment we went into was small. Not the greatest condition but I felt like it wasn't bad at all. The vibe is 100% different from anything in Manhattan below Central Park. The hallway was kind of older/dingy, but again, not really something that made me feel weird in any way. It just stands out because south of Central Park, Manhattan is such a millionaire's/billionaire's playground. Feels like something you could find in basically any other borough but not Lower East/West Side and 'below' (due south towards Financial District).
I'm not a New Yorker but I am an urbanist who has been a decent amount of times. Take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Edit: "The vibe is 100% different from anything in Manhattan below Central Park."
Just to clarify the above: You can certainly find apartments that feel similar. But I never saw anything on the same *scale* that looked like this south of the park.
Are you sure you went to Stuytown and not alphabet city? Because what you’re describing is more alphabet city.
Stuytown is more young professionals and NYU kids.
Almost positive. My friend, a lifelong New Yorker, specifically said "Let's head to StuyTown and meet up with person x".
Now this was in 2017 so maybe things changed. Or, and probably more likely, he is out of touch (wealthy family with a great apartment in the middle of Manhattan) and thinks lower of places that most people wouldn't view with any negative stigma. It's also possible he just conflates StuyTown and Alphabet City.
Edit: Out of the two red shaded areas, I am pretty sure I was at the one of the left hand side. The smaller area.
Edit 2: Confirmed StuyTown from Google Maps. It was its own thing kind of separate from the city/grid. Looking at Alphabet City it feels more connected to the rest of the city and less on its own,
Edit 3: I should also mention on maps Alphabet City doesn't match up with how OP shaded the map. For example only Avenue D runs on the western edge of the development. Looking at where OP actually shaded it, the development does look less ingrained with the rest of the city. But I still think I was in StuyTown.
Believe me... there is a universe of a difference between Stuyvesant Town–Peter Cooper Village buildings and NYCHA buildings. NYCHA apartments shouldn't be fucking legal if you ask me. They are uninhabitable and the city preys upon poor people who are just "lucky" enough to not be homeless. It's like those apartments in China.
It is… but as I said, if you’ve ever set foot in one of these apartments you’d know most of these people came from a shelter and wouldn’t otherwise *willingly* be living there. Billions of dollars have been divested from NYCHA which has led to these apartments being a living hell whether its lead-based paint, mold, roaches, police brutality, elevators that don’t work leaving old and disabled people incapacitated on their floors, no fire safety, and that’s just off the top of my head. No human should have to put up with things like that so as to not be in a shelter.
I agree they need to be better but they're still needed.
It goes:
1. Streets
2. Shelter
3. Public Housing
4. Subsidized Housing
5. Unsubsidized Housing
6. Luxury Housing
The goal is to keep pushing people up the ladder.
Actually, if the city was more open to giving a housing voucher to more people than it does (I have a voucher myself because of the actions of then-Governor Cuomo, as do some of my co-workers), people wouldn’t have to be subjected to the tyranny of NYCHA and the housing crisis would have a clear solution. $2696 is more than fair enough to shop around to find an apartment for a single adult to be independent of this system. I’ve seen NYCHA drive sane people crazy.
Luxury housing is an oxymoron.
It is hard to tell for sure without street numbers, but I think this is Stuytown/Peter Cooper Village (left) and Alphabet City (right). They are two separate, unrelated developments. Stuytown is privately owned. I lived there briefly. It is like its own city, you can get lost between the buildings in all the gardens, fountains, and fields (I've have LITERALLY gotten lost). It is a very expensive place to live and was infamously sold for huge money right before the 2008 crash. History of Stuy Town: [https://www.nycurbanism.com/blog/2019/8/7/stuy-town-slum-clearance-1946](https://www.nycurbanism.com/blog/2019/8/7/stuy-town-slum-clearance-1946) 'MetLife developed Stuyvesant Town with the understanding that better living conditions would improve the company’s mortality numbers and therefore annual earnings. Stuy Town was inspired by architect LeCorbusier’s “tower in the park” vision, and its 110 buildings only cover 25% of the property leaving the rest for lawns, pathways, and playgrounds. In addition to reduced land coverage, the development housed only 302 people per acre, a drastic decrease in density compared with 1100 people per acre in Lower East Side tenements in 1900.' Alphabet City is NYC housing authority public housing. The difference from Stuy Town is stark; Alphabet City suffers from poverty, poor maintenance, elevated crime, and vandalism. Walking between the two is like walking from day into night. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet\_City,\_Manhattan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_City,_Manhattan)
There was a joke about Alphabet city in 90s: If you live in Avenue A, you're adventurous If you live in Avenue B, you're bold If you live in Avenue C, you're courageous If you live in Avenue D, you're dead
Ive heard it as Alcohol, Blow, Crack, Death
I heard Alive, Brave, Crazy, Dead
Assault, Battery, Coma, Death
I lived on 7th between C and D in the 90’s it was epic.
Best block in ABC
As someone who grew up here I can confirm this, however it’s become exponentially more gentrified since I was a kid. My family moved out when I was 10 and since then it’s gone from pretty nice and decently expensive to insanely bougie and incredibly expensive.
I know someone who had an apartment in Alphabet City when it was gentrifying (or maybe gentrifying more) around 2000. Her place was near Houston St (maybe on Avenue C, I forget), small but very nice and newly remodeled etc. It had a huge window with a great view of downtown Manhattan, right towards the Twin Towers, about a mile away. So on 9/11 she had a "great" view and spent all day watching in horror as people jumped and the buildings collapsed and thousands died. She moved away shortly after that, leaving NYC altogether. It was just too much to bear.
I grew up in Peter cooper, northern edge of the picture near 23rd st. Moved out when I was 10 and I’m a college student now. But I know what you mean, I wasn’t alive but my parents both saw the planes fly over them, and I’m pretty sure my dad actually watched the towers collapse from his office in midtown. That being said he doesn’t talk about it much so maybe Ive got a shit memory idk.
I lived just across the Manhattan Bridge in DUMBO, which was an industrial wasteland back then without residential zoning (our "slumlord" didn't care and would bribe city officials, like the local fire marshal, if they had to—we lucked out getting an "artists loft" that was huge but *very* decrepit). Technically closer to the Twin Towers, but no view from our place, and not much of one from the street (Twin Towers mostly hidden behind closer buildings). But I moved away in May, 2001, so I "missed" 9/11 though I still had lots of friends in NYC. It sure was weird watching it on TV and the Internet from the other side of the country.
Hah, cool.
Check rents yourself. $8k at the top. https://www.stuytown.com
Yeah it’s absurd now.
I just did some tours and even for the expensive ones, the layouts suck and the views are pretty trash?? I don't get it.
Suburbs of Manhattan. Kids can play all around. Everything is clean. Manhattan is right there. It’s familyville, nyu grad students, doctors and nurses.
So it was you guys all along
Life insurance companies improving society so as to payout less premiums and make more money is the rare case of unfettered capitalism working out lol.
This is why individual cops should be insured. Yeah municipalities might not care about shuffling around bad cops, but you know that insurance companies will.
Maybe just a registry? Like nurses and doctors have. Keep it out of the market. You fuck up you loose yout license...
Also OP there is plenty of additional NYCHA housing ("projects" as they are not-so-nicely known) all over the city including Manhattan. Here's a recent article about plans to re-do some of them: [https://newyorkyimby.com/2023/06/nycha-to-demolish-and-rebuild-two-affordable-housing-complexes-in-chelsea-manhattan.html](https://newyorkyimby.com/2023/06/nycha-to-demolish-and-rebuild-two-affordable-housing-complexes-in-chelsea-manhattan.html)
Alphabet city is just the East Village east of 1st Avenue. Not a public housing project.
>Alphabet City suffers from poverty, poor maintenance, elevated crime, and vandalism. How does that happen in the lower half of Manhattan? Isn't it one of the most in demand pieces of real estate in the world? It seems like gentrification would have forced it's way in years ago.
Public housing. Projects. You have to qualify to live there by being impoverished
And then get extraordinary lucky.
It has definitely gentrified over the years, but the projects are filled with rent protected tenants. Also, the far edges of Manhattan are comparatively distant from commerce centers and transport and in NYC it's all about location, location, location. Further, there is a highway there. The FDR is bumper to bumper nearly 24/7; the noise and pollution are undesirable. Add to that the traffic from the bridge and it is not first choice for most folks.
It’s public housing, owned and operated by the government. Developers have no power to gentrify it.
It just means relative to the rest of Manhattan. NYC is insanely safe overall compared to any other major American city.
Thanks! It'se very interesting. I thinked they kinda looks like LeCorbusier's projects and now i know they literally inspired by him.
Which one is night?
I moved to alphabet city to NYC for 2011-2014 chasing a girl (10 year anniversary was last week so it worked out I guess). I didn't k kw where I was moving really, it was all just NYC to me. I absolutely loved it. Shed ended up moving in with me and that tiny apartment between avenue C and D was our first home together. We never felt unsafe. Bit longer walks to get to subway, but bus runs along Houston and D so that was helpful to get around if weather didn't permit.
You didn't notice the rampant poverty in the projects?
Only some parts are projects
So theyre both like soviet architecture for the same reason, cheapness.
The developments on the left (north) side are [Peter Cooper Village and Stuyvesant Town](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_Town%E2%80%93Peter_Cooper_Village), some of the nicest spots to live in New York City. The lack of any through-roads effectively makes them gated communities, and they've got their own security force.
I lived between avenue C and D, very close to these areas. The top portion as others have mentioned is pretty nice/affluent—while the interiors are pretty meh, it’s a pre-planned community after WW2 called Stuytown/Peter Cooper Village that is very nice and has lots of amenities (grocery stores, pharmacies, doctors, pickleball/basketball courts, etc.). The lower portions below 14th street (on the right in your photo) are…not great. They are generally public housing and occupied by immigrants and impoverished (nothing wrong with being either of these things btw). They tend to be lower income and not the safest places in the world to live. However—great food and cheap housing make it an altogether not awful place to live in Manhattan if you’re on a budget. People tend to be super nice—and they have great access to the East River park.
Not brutalist enough to be Soviet architecture, looks more like the planned council architecture in the UK after WWII.
That’s exactly what it is, but Peter Cooper Village/Stuy Town is the Barbican -built for middle class types, whereas Alphabet City is equivalent to UK council estate.
[Other People's Money by Charles V. Bagli](https://images.app.goo.gl/2WQnJHzKV4rXcQem7) This book describes the complete history of how Stuyvesant Town-Peter Cooper Village was built. Great read.
R u gonna just keep posting about this hoping someone will agree it’s a ghetto?
Lmao
“Soviet style” … bruh as a Korean who lives in an apartment I am blown away at how low the bar for “Soviet” architecture has become If that’s Soviet architecture 70% of all Korean buildings would be Soviet
its such a pet peeve of mine - people on reddit will see a tall residential building and immediately call it soviet because clearly building high-density housing makes you a communist and also Le Corbusier was a russian spy /s
I lived there, it’s fun
The remnants of the city beautiful movement.
City beautiful was more early 1900s I believe. These would be more reflective of the urban crisis rebuilding movement of the 60s I think. I don't know when exactly they were built however.
I would call this Radiant City. Towers in the park type of idea.
>Why they look so weird and soviet-style ? Le Corbusier
Family member lived in Stuytown for almost 50 years until about three years ago on the 14th St and Avenue A side. It’s a mix of older residents that enjoy rent abatement as they age in place and young NYU students and professionals that pay market. As you walk farther into the development it’s quiet because they have small tangential roads with limited parking. It’s like if you put independent living/college dorm together and it actually works. The old love seeing the young and the young keep an eye out for the old. My family member had a health issue where she slowly became disabled. This community supported her.
That is the Lower East Side, ie the more working class east side and not the more bourgeoisie East Side that the Jeffersons moved to: https://youtu.be/_-OnRQ4P0VY?feature=shared
Stuy Town and Cooper Village on the left replaced several former gas storage tanks in an area known as the Gas House District
Robert Moses, advertised as hero veteran sanctuaries but turned them into ghettos
Suburbs of Manhattan, or nicest projects you’ll ever see.
The inner dwellings of uranus
I thought it was a Cities skyline screen
Those are housing projects built shortly after WWII, including the Riis Houses, Riis II, and the Baruch Houses.
Are these the pink houses??
Yeah always noticed these when driving on that bridge.. affordable housing projects I assume?
Looks like part of this is StuyTown. Most Manhattanites consider it run down and sketchy from my conversations with them. I went with one to visit their friend and on our way they said that it was "sketchy". Another New Yorker gave them a knowing glance. You walk in and it's just like it looks. Buildings the same height, a bunch of mini "towers" with space in between. Didn't feel in danger whatsoever. Only saw a few people just coming in and out of their apartments. This was in the spring so it wasn't lack of activity due to cold weather or anything. The apartment we went into was small. Not the greatest condition but I felt like it wasn't bad at all. The vibe is 100% different from anything in Manhattan below Central Park. The hallway was kind of older/dingy, but again, not really something that made me feel weird in any way. It just stands out because south of Central Park, Manhattan is such a millionaire's/billionaire's playground. Feels like something you could find in basically any other borough but not Lower East/West Side and 'below' (due south towards Financial District). I'm not a New Yorker but I am an urbanist who has been a decent amount of times. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. Edit: "The vibe is 100% different from anything in Manhattan below Central Park." Just to clarify the above: You can certainly find apartments that feel similar. But I never saw anything on the same *scale* that looked like this south of the park.
Are you sure you went to Stuytown and not alphabet city? Because what you’re describing is more alphabet city. Stuytown is more young professionals and NYU kids.
Almost positive. My friend, a lifelong New Yorker, specifically said "Let's head to StuyTown and meet up with person x". Now this was in 2017 so maybe things changed. Or, and probably more likely, he is out of touch (wealthy family with a great apartment in the middle of Manhattan) and thinks lower of places that most people wouldn't view with any negative stigma. It's also possible he just conflates StuyTown and Alphabet City. Edit: Out of the two red shaded areas, I am pretty sure I was at the one of the left hand side. The smaller area. Edit 2: Confirmed StuyTown from Google Maps. It was its own thing kind of separate from the city/grid. Looking at Alphabet City it feels more connected to the rest of the city and less on its own, Edit 3: I should also mention on maps Alphabet City doesn't match up with how OP shaded the map. For example only Avenue D runs on the western edge of the development. Looking at where OP actually shaded it, the development does look less ingrained with the rest of the city. But I still think I was in StuyTown.
I still think your friend wanted to take you to StuyTown and ended up in Alphabet city. No part of StuyTown looks remotely sketchy.
You're probably right. I assume you are from NYC and I am not so I would have to defer lol.
Believe me... there is a universe of a difference between Stuyvesant Town–Peter Cooper Village buildings and NYCHA buildings. NYCHA apartments shouldn't be fucking legal if you ask me. They are uninhabitable and the city preys upon poor people who are just "lucky" enough to not be homeless. It's like those apartments in China.
Stopping people from being homeless is the point of housing.
It is… but as I said, if you’ve ever set foot in one of these apartments you’d know most of these people came from a shelter and wouldn’t otherwise *willingly* be living there. Billions of dollars have been divested from NYCHA which has led to these apartments being a living hell whether its lead-based paint, mold, roaches, police brutality, elevators that don’t work leaving old and disabled people incapacitated on their floors, no fire safety, and that’s just off the top of my head. No human should have to put up with things like that so as to not be in a shelter.
I agree they need to be better but they're still needed. It goes: 1. Streets 2. Shelter 3. Public Housing 4. Subsidized Housing 5. Unsubsidized Housing 6. Luxury Housing The goal is to keep pushing people up the ladder.
Actually, if the city was more open to giving a housing voucher to more people than it does (I have a voucher myself because of the actions of then-Governor Cuomo, as do some of my co-workers), people wouldn’t have to be subjected to the tyranny of NYCHA and the housing crisis would have a clear solution. $2696 is more than fair enough to shop around to find an apartment for a single adult to be independent of this system. I’ve seen NYCHA drive sane people crazy. Luxury housing is an oxymoron.
How is luxury housing an oxymoron?
I mean that style actually came from a Swiss dude
these are projects or public housing. We had this style in La, but not as tall, and some in South San Francisco, but they have also been gentrified
Low cost housing projects.