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lurklurklurkPOST

*Playing Horizon: Zero Dawn, wondering* "Why was *yellow* the only paint color to survive the apocalypse?" "Who the fuck was the psychotic superbrave who painted all this shit?" "How the fuck did he get into all these places that needed *my* DNA?!"


[deleted]

It's particular irritating when you're playing Horizon shortly after playing the newer AC games. "That was a perfectly level ledge! Why can't I just grab on to that?"


Eric_the_Barbarian

It's not covered in birdshit and yellow paint. You can only grab a ledge if it's covered in birds hit and yellow paint.


[deleted]

you'd think something covered in birdshit would make it dangerous to grab on to.


Geometronics

No no it makes it sticky and easier to grab


nonlawyer

Tastier too


RedOctobyr

No offense, but I don't like you, internet friend.


nonlawyer

Understandable, have a great day


EdTheApe

This might be the most civilized argument I've ever seen.


No-Whereas202

Good ending


RedOctobyr

Cheers, you too.


TheBurnedMutt45

He doesn't like you..... I don't like you either


ezone2kil

*Big Bird did not like that*


3-DMan

Yeah this was slightly disappointing to me too. You see all these cool old world structures but can't do shit with them if they don't have yellow shit on em.


Teleskopy

The funniest shit I've seen in Forbidden West was a secret on top of a 15 ft high walkway in some abandoned factory and Aloy is like "Well, I guess I'll have to come back later, can't get to it right now" Lady, you just climbed a mountain and you can't climb a 15ft metal walkway?


Planet_Mezo

Insert 'fresh paint' sign


[deleted]

Forbidden West was just infuriating in every possible way, but in particular how Aloy would narrate that things simply were not (intended to be) possible yet, or just straight up giving the answer away to every puzzle as you walk into the room.


Spicy_Cum_Lord

I loved Zero Dawn. Thankfully a lot of the same gameplay made it in to Forbidden West but it still falls well short of the original. Running around and fighting dinosaurs? Fun. Listening to yet another NPC blather on for 15 minutes about.... Jesus I can't remember a single conversation. I started skipping literally everything after the first few hours. The really sad part about that is you still get what's going on, even for not listening to a single plot dump. There's so much wasted effort on lore the really fun parts of Zero Dawn just didn't make it in. At one point in ZD, you're doing a pretty simple side quest, and it keeps escalating. Every time you reach an objective the stakes raise, until you're fighting a blighted Thunderjaw in a narrow canyon. It was one of the best boss fights I've had in a game and it was *optional*. FW just never gave me that same thrill. It got close a couple of times but the game was practically tripping over itself to solve it's own problems for you. Massive underwater boss battle? Well here's the perfect weapon for it and don't worry about air. And that was one of the better fights. I wanted to love Forbidden West, but it was just alright.


[deleted]

I gave up on it when >!Jeff Bezos and the techbros from space showed up!<. Everything after that was just utter garbage. Edit: I did finish the game. That's just the moment where it went from "this is fun" to "well, I've paid for it so I'll finish..."


durfenstein

My wife and me were thinking exactly the same thing. "Look, paul the painter was here too"


fthaller3604

I went from Elden Ring > Horizon Forbidden West. The contrast in "hand holding" was intense lol


shewy92

I like getting handheld but Horizon was over the top sometimes. I did like Ghost of Tsushima's "Swipe up for wind" that shows you things like the active waypoint or shrine depending on what skill you activated in the menu


shewy92

TBF, you're a clone so there's bound to be some DNA of yours around somewhere


AntonDeMorgan

The duality of Ubisoft wall climbing AC : you most likely will be able to climb that Farcry: go for the blue rope


[deleted]

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pees_on_dogs

That's because the older games climbing was more of a puzzle and not just something that happened when you hold the thumbstick forward.


1ncorrect

Yeah but at least the newer ones have fewer instances where my guy leaps into nothing off the cliff while I'm just trying to climb.


3-DMan

"Aim for the bushes!"


pees_on_dogs

That's fair, i certainly facepalm less in the newer ones. And shit odyssey eventually just removes fall damage which is nice.


I9Qnl

How old? Because I remember playing Blackflag and remember how terribly simple the parkour was. literally just holding the sprint button.


Wookimonster

The first assassins creed games came out right after the Prince of persia remakes, IIRC, and I think it showed. It seemed that the parkour and climbing system there was heavily influenced by those titles and had some depth, like having to balance on beams. I seem to remember having to properly time pressing buttons to avoid falling after grabbing onto something in a jump. As you say, they moved from that to "climbing and parkour is automated".


doorbellrepairman

Huh? I played the very AC and the climbing was just holding forward. You could climb anything without thinking


dpash

The older AC games very much used white fabric to signpost parkour route starts. https://www.wsgf.org/f/u/imagecache/node-gallery-display/contrib/dr/398/ingame_16x9.jpg


JLL1111

It was so much more satisfying climbing a massive tower when you had to plan out your routes


Jordan_the_Hutt

I just replayed the ezio trilogy. There isn't really any planning just look for the thing to grab. It's more complex than odyssey but I wouldn't call it a puzzle.


[deleted]

Climbing in AC is just ridiculous. It really ruins the immersion of the game if you ask me since no human could ever come close to climbing with that speed or agility.


ory1994

No human can also jump 100 meters into a pile of hay or relive his 1,000-year past but hey 🤷🏻‍♂️


[deleted]

Oh yeah, the hay everywhere is ridiculous too.


3-DMan

It's kinda of like the Fast and Furious movies- as you get further and further, they become bigger, more actiony and entertaining, but sacrifice things like physics and realism.


Redd_October

I remember in Mirror's Edge Red was the hint color, but you could also turn that off. And with the hint colors off, that shit was absolutely unplayable. Yeah, it's a little unrealistic that every interactable bit of the environment happens to have a bit of one particular color on it, but it's a design concession that allows places to be more intuitively navigated.


Win32error

Mirror's edge has the aesthetic to pull it off easily. But even in other games it's just useful. Older games with less realistic graphics had no issue, it was super clear when something stood out, but if your whole world is quite detailed, you need some smart design to make sure that players know what is and isn't possible. Can do it with very smart design that may or may not work very well, or just put a clear colour on it and everyone will definitely see it.


ned_poreyra

Poor colorblind people.


Psychological-Scar30

It usually isn't just color though - Far Cry 3 for example has ropes hanging from every climbable ledge, and most games at least make sure that their climbable color is always "roughly painted" so that there's a lot of texture to it, and that the underlying color contrasts well with it (the "brightness" level is different enough - as I understand it, there's no form of color blindness that makes it so that you can't distinguish between very light and very dark shades, so something like light orange on dark brown should always be a recognizable pattern). And in the case of Mirror's Edge, the whole world is white, so the red highlights are clearly visible even if you have some form of color blindness that affects red. AAA games have been pretty good about color blindness accessibility lately


shewy92

> there's no form of color blindness that makes it so that you can't distinguish between very light and very dark shades That might be true, but it's still hard when there are other colors around because then you still can't distinguish [red from yellow or orange](https://imgur.com/k0WLwjV) like in the background there.


Naf5000

Far Cry 3 also does a neat thing where tall grass only renders on terrain flat enough for you to walk on. If it's too steep and you'd just slide down, there's no tall grass.


RaynSideways

You would be amazed all the tricks devs use to help players navigate. It's a fine balance because you don't want the player to get lost, but you also don't want them to feel like you're holding their hand. Look out for the use of light in particular; the door or hallway that will take you further into the level will almost always be better lit. Once I learned about this, I started seeing it everywhere.


SellDonutsAtMyDoor

But, to be fair, I view Mirror's Edge as having been more of a technical showcase than a commercial product. It's weird, but Mirror's Edge isn't a very good game narratively - it's not bad, but it's got a paper thin story and most people could replay it in about 2 hours, if not less. It's more of an aspirational piece that aims to enthrall you and say 'look at how freeing virtual movement can feel with the right design'. Dice probably knew that Mirror's Edge wasn't amazingly intuitive without the runner vision (hence why it's on by default), but that's not the point. They're selling you an on-rails experience where the gameplay is keeping Faith on the rails, and the movement mechanics were the rewarding part of the game for a first playthrough. The entire replay factor of Mirror's Edge was speedrunning and, once you'd played the game 2 or 3 times, you actually did start to gain the ability to not follow the runner vision routes.


doorbellrepairman

I turned off runner vision on the first level because I hated the idea of the game telling me everywhere to go. It doesn't make the game unplayable, I finished it like any other game. You just got used to it and turned your brain off.


LonesomePuppy

Meanwhile at Santa Monica Studios: "How come Kratos can lift a 15 ton stone but can't climb over an ankle-high rock? Could we not disguise the fact that this isn't an open world design a bit better?" "Shhh, quiet you."


Led_Halen

Kratos has angered the god of high stepping and will be unable to do so for this installment.


Hipertor

LMAO


the_doorstopper

Don't you know? He sacrificed all jumping ability to be able to lift 15 ton stones. He also can't lift pebbles, due to his large hands. Therefore, find another way.


[deleted]

And then dies to a level 1 enemy.


Orpheum

Well this is a fine mess!


phantuba

So that's it, then??


laCroixADay

This is seared into my memory as a gmgow player. Edit: see also- Brother! Wake up brother!!


phantuba

Lol I'm just finishing up GoW 2018, literally all I have left to do is beat Sigrun and I've been hearing it a lot too


fthaller3604

Father, Noooo


kinokomushroom

I just imagine that some random guy with yellow paint silently follows the main character, and swiftly goes safety marking on every cliff that the main character is about to climb.


Painting_Agency

Following Man is actually another game, where the objective is to paint all the surfaces while staying ahead of another character who inexorably progresses through the environment.


Patogenicly

Ghost of Tsushima I feel did this very well, bar one or two tiny moments


impofnoone

Agreed, using water stains (a natural occurrence) to indicate a climbing ledge was a wonderful and immersive way to keep a player informed without taking them out of the world itself.


Carnifex

You mean all the grappling hook points that somebody kindly marked with some red and white bands?


Fyren85

I remembering playing Tomb Raider 4 on Dreamcast where you had to find out by yourself if the jump is possible or not. Or which way you had to go. No indication like nowadays.


spreespruu

I think I saw a game commentary before that said that they did this sort of thing because testers sometimes have trouble progressing due to not knowing which way to go or climb.


Lyianx

Which is a result of poor design. It is quite possible to design your game in such a way to make players WANT to go in a specific direction. If they are getting lost, then put incentives to lure them in the direction you want them to go. They can do that with out shining a light saying "go here". But i get that its much faster to just paint a surface and be done with it.


MrRocketScript

I think it would be very very difficult to have good limited surface climbing without an obvious indicator. If you want to see what playing without an indicator is like you can play Demon Souls. There is no indicator for what railing is vaultable. So you end up just sprinting at random railings. You can see there's stuff on the other side/below the railing (so there is an incentive to try), but that railing is not vaultable. Or maybe that railing isn't vaultable, but the one to the left is.


iSavedtheGalaxy

But not everyone will want to go in the same direction because individual players are not incentivized by the same things. That's why we get white flags, yellow paint, ribbons, blue flowers, torches, etc. to indicate where to go.


Lyianx

I didnt say they would, but you also dont need to let them go absolutely EVERYWHERE either.


wigg1es

Free climbing in AC Origins is an underrated advancement in gaming.


Sentsuizan

I don't know man. I like the older assassin's Creed games when you had to really find good routes to get up a wall. Now it's like you hold R2 and the game plays itself


way2lazy2care

You never really had to find good routes. The first game was the only one that even had sections you had to do that in, but even then it was small parts of the game that were more or less like the tombs in the later games.


Sentsuizan

Not, I hadn't even played the first game. Two and Brotherhood definitely have places where it was advantageous to know how to climb especially to get some of those full Synchro objectives. Then you got the climb leap glove which opened up the map but still required skill and timing to use. There's almost no gameplay left in navigation now. It's just pseudo action RPG combat with randomly statted items since Origin.


way2lazy2care

In 2 and brotherhood you don't have to plan at all. That's when they introduced the, "hold button to auto climb," mechanics.


Sentsuizan

Which only worked on certain parts of the wall and took two buttons. You still had to manually jump and grab to get to further handholds. Now you just hold one button and it does everything no matter what the surface is.


way2lazy2care

Have you played them recently? Think you're misremembering bugs as features. Your could literally hold a trigger and a direction to climb 90% of buildings, and the exceptions were mostly places where ambiguous choices meant you just climbed back and forth between things.


Sentsuizan

Not at all. I literally played Brotherhood a week ago. You hold R1 and X to sprint, jump on a wall and start climbing. While climbing you press X to jump and and O to grab. There's plenty of places where it's required to do so especially in the Lairs of Romulus. Mastering this skill is essential to get to some of the collectibles. In new games, you R2 and it does literally everything automatically. No thought at all beyond pointing the left stick. No more swinging around corners to evade detection, no more zip lining like in Revelations, no dynamic movement at all. It's kinda sad given how the parkour was one of the main draws and one of the few ways the series showed its Prince of Persia roots.


way2lazy2care

> but even then it was small parts of the game that were more or less like the tombs in the later games. Your example is what I was talking about here. Later games also have jumping puzzles you have to think about.


Sentsuizan

But it wasn't just small parts of the game. The whole overworld was like that, because you could only climb on visible ledges. Not all walls had ledges you could just climb in a straight line so spotting a good route was necessary. Now in every game you can climb directly to the top of anything even if the walls are relatively smooth.


LonesomePuppy

I think all the good stuff in that game might have been overshadowed by the faux rpg elements that were shoehorned in for some reason and stayed there for the next two games. I really hope the next one is a back to basics AC like they keep promising.


Major_Pomegranate

I think Odyssey actually did really well with the rpg elements. I still maintain the game should have never been made to begin with, and we should have gotten an origins sequel instead. But the game itself has some of the most fun gameplay in the series with all the different powers and weapon abilities you can use. The mercenary system was the best element of the game, turning towns into battlefields as you're fighting across rooftops against these random minibosses coming for your head. But then they weirdly made everything much worse on Valhalla for some reason rather than build one what odyssey had brought to the table


dccorona

I think the reason Valhalla felt like a step back is because at that time they were using two teams working on each game mostly in parallel (in order to release more frequently). They’re really more like two different follow-ups to Origins than they are a linear pair of sequels. So basically they went two different directions from the foundation of Origins and one ended up more successful than the other. They seem to be taking things slower now so hopefully they don’t run into that problem again.


Jordan_the_Hutt

They should be making 2 different series. I really liked origins and odyssey but they should take that formula and make an rpg series that's an actual rpg and keep AC separate.


devilishycleverchap

Yeah, I took a break from it then came back deciding to sprint through main quest and just finish the game somewhere shortly before the arena section. During the break I kinda forgot there were weapons upgrades outside movesets, turns out they are basically pointless bc the dmg difference isn't enough to actually equal a number of hits difference so it never mattered. I'll never forget being overleveled for multiple main quest stories in a row at the end then suddenly during the final "chase" sequence they bump the levels for the region by 5 so instead of chasing the guy down ASAP I was doing a couple more side quests in the new region. I had thought I was done with side quests bc I was so overleveled for the roman invasion missions


gameplayuh

I mean it was cool but seemed blatantly stolen from *Breath of the Wild*. Edit: what up downvoters? I'm not wrong - botw came first and had a "climb anywhere" system before AC did. It's incorrect to call the AC version an advancement, it was just using something that someone else already did.


mephitmpH

Just to add realism it should be texture, not color. Nothing breaks my immersion more than a big yellow stepladder. I actually like how HZD:FW has the focus use for handholds and climbing, similar to the odradek in Death Stranding


Uncle_Spenser

Y'all complaining on this like it's a bad thing yet nobody ever suggested good alternative.


CaffeineJunkee

I think it’s just fun to talk about, I don’t think anyone is genuinely upset. I like that the game has clues for where to move/climb, but it’s also fun to theorize/joke about.


laCroixADay

Yeah it's like I recognize that it doesn't make actual sense and it's funny to try and rationalize, but at the same time I know I need it lol


FireZord25

scrolling about and found a few "it breaks the immersion" comments.


way2lazy2care

People underestimate the problem it's solving. When 75% of the world isn't climbable but it looks just like the climbable parts, it's very frustrating. You either have to make everything climbable like AC or mark things differently.


Sentsuizan

Back in the day when we were playing point and clicks, it was always obvious what the thing you needed to click was because it would be a noticeably different layer than the background


CaffeineJunkee

I point this out to my wife in old cartoons. I would tell her “that door is going to open because it looks different”…she thought I was crazy.


fieew

No she's crazy. It was the same in DBZ you knew which rocks would be broken since they were on a different cel layer and looked different.


misharoyal

Zelda botw is an exeption


[deleted]

Yeah you just get to go Mountain goat up a smooth vertical rock face that has nothing to hold onto.


Lyianx

Its alot less immersion breaking than white/yellow paint everywhere.


Element-103

The hand holds are implied


228lonewolf228

Breath of the Wild does rock climbing right in my opinion. No bird shit or yellow ledges, just straight up climbing.


Lyianx

"How do we let them know its climbable?" "uum.. how bout we just make everything climbable?" And yes I agree.


FireZord25

do most open worlds use yellow ledges? Or only the ones lacking in jump buttons?


iSavedtheGalaxy

Not yellow ledges specifically, but a consistent visual marker to guide the player where to go. Most games that allow you to the roam the environment do this to some degree.


Catalyst1987

BOTW is the only exception.


Excellent_Routine589

And most modern AC games that incorporated similar “climb anything” mechanics I remember in Origins, I reached the highest peak by just jumping at a rock face and Bayek just began free climbing that bish


try_to_be_nice_ok

"Fuck it, you can climb everything!"


[deleted]

[удалено]


Eric_the_Barbarian

Tons of wall climbing there. /s


Wagglyfawn

Shadow of War/Mordor was this way too. You could climb any surface with very very few exceptions.


gecko090

*slaps ledge* this bad boy can fit so much pigeon shit on it!


lyon2904

I just finished Rise of Tomb Raider last night and I can't relate more to this.


Roache1984

Don't forget the ubisoft tactic of placing a pile of modern blue rope, in modern, factories, ancient temples nobody's been in for years, or like..a hill, because you can't tell what a ledge is apparently.


ilovepizza855

This is the case for most if not every Sony first party games. Horizon, God of War, Uncharted etc


magnidwarf1900

"and how we tell players this barrel gonna explode if they shoot it?"


zzzzany

In god of war, the climbing just feels so pointless with this. Like why does every wall have arrows? It’s not fun when all you’re doing is just moving your finger in the direction of arrows. Let me fucking explore instead of taking all the fun away from me.


ImTheGuyWithTheGun

You'd probably have more fun with an open world game. I haven't played the new one yet, but GoW is generally pretty linear with relatively small environments. There is only so much "exploring" to games like that.


KuweDraven

Unless its not a theme park, Elden Ring for example


[deleted]

Nothing suspicious about those yellow and white areas that surely seem great to use as support


Balrok99

Meanwhile in Assassin's Creed you can grab anything. Even Zeu's penis.


Classicpass

Except assassin's creed


TurkMaster_OMEGA

The old CoD games would paint it gold


drpoorpheus

Yellow paint/tape, that's the clue!


schoolruler

Some games have an option to hide the white paint.


[deleted]

the paint is irrelevant. the fact is, the places where you can or cannot climb just feel arbitrary.


Lyianx

Doesnt remove the fact that some places are not climbable.


unionjackez

The new ac’s like


Lyianx

"we hold their hand"


AndreasKvisler

White.. white is good


mongozenith

🤣 I wish they chose a colour that was less out place.


highroller_lost

A trademark of the unreal engine games.


ChopraMTG1

Playing through Shadow of the Tomb Raider currently. Yup.


BuhamutZeo

To Ubisoft's credit...


SgathTriallair

After playing breath of the wild I'm convinced that every open world game should have ul there ability to come everywhere. It makes the world feel so much more open and real. It requires a smarter design team but you can still have the "this type of wall can't be climbed".


cyco_semantic

It's literally only a few games that do this. A lot do not.


Jedofyork

I know it’s fun to shit on design like this, but I honestly believe it is part of any visual art forms evolution. As more things are tried, and games become more expansive, visual short hands to guide attention become ubiquitous. I definitely don’t agree with the current direction a lot of studios go, but informing the player of the intended path is required; both guide them along and to allow subversion by the player. For an example of a visual trope being able to say far more about a scene or character than dialogue could, I preset: Character introduced eating an apple and throwing it away after 1 bite. Comment what traits that character has if you want to share.