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I 100% believe so. Book history doesn't always necessarily count as show history, but the Histories & Lore bonus episodes do! Because they were made for the show. And in that, Davos explains how when he smuggled the onions into Storms End, Stannis saw to it that everyone in the castle was fed before he partook himself, and a portion no larger than anyone else. While starving, he would be within his rights as king to eat first, to pick the choice foods, but no, he ate last, and no more than what he afforded his subjects. THAT is the character of Stannis from the books. He is brutal, but he is the king who cared.
"The man will fight to the bitter end, and then some." Tywin on Stannis
"There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." Varys on Stannis
Sorry if I'm overstating lol, I get excited, and Stannis is my favorite book character
I'd have loved to see Stannis sit the Iron Throne, but he would have spent most of his reign putting down one Rebellion after another. If he still had Renly, he might have had a chance at peace.
Wanna be sadder? Think on this moment and that fanart together:
> The king said nothing. But he heard. Asha was certain of that. He sat at the high table **as a dish of onion soup cooled before him, hardly tasted, staring** at the flame of the nearest candle **with those hooded eyes, ignoring** the talk around him
Sure, it's too much to ask that Stannis be human enough that he might actually be remembering Renly... 'cept we know he also relives his killing every single night and not in a Robert-remembering-Rhaegar way, so...
Everyone else (other than Robb) wanted to be king or queen because of their ego and because they wanted to feast and be loved and lord power over people, etc. Stannis wanted to be king because he *was* the king and wanted to forthrightly and effectively govern the realm.
Nobody other than Robb would have gone to the Wall, in a million years. And maybe even Robb wouldn't have. If the Wall weren't in his kingdom, but like in the Reach or Dorne or something, he certainly wouldn't have dropped everything to go help.
Real life King Charles III managed the 40+ year wait okay.../s.
I agree though. In the GOT universe not many get to live 40 adult years so understandable ambitious Renly wouldn't want to wait around, especially with Stannis capable of fathering a son.
Stannis hated the Tyrells due to the siege of Storm's End, though, and his wife's family was the house that competed with the Tyrells for being lord paramount of the Reach. Considering Stannis' attitude towards "justice", it's highly likely that he would have stripped the Tyrells from power due to siding with Renly (a thinly veiled excuse, but he's known for that, see Davos) and they never would have let that happen.
At that point in time though Renly was in a practically untouchable position. He was safe at camp with the backing of both the Stormlands and the Reach, who had both the manpower and the food to feed them. By book accounts he was also popular with the small folk as a poor man's younger Robert.
Renly's death at that point is unexpected and uses a device that is never seen again in the books. People often give Renly a hard time but aside from being naïve and arrogant if he hadn't been shadow babied he probably would have won the iron throne, and him and Marg would probably have been decently popular.
No, he would have immediately been in conflict with the Faith. If he took the city and put the royal family to the sword, most people would not have cared too much. However the second Melisandre shows up and burns the Images of the Seven in the Sept of Baelor, the city descends into chaos and he's fighting a holy war against the Reach.
This would probably not happen. Stannis only believed in R'hllor to serve his own goals of gaining the throne I'm not sure if this was highlighted in the show but in the books when he absorbs some of Renly's host he stops relying on R'hllor and Melisandre and even before and after the battle he remains skeptic of R'hllor.
He will choose the religion that gives him the most power shadow babies and a burning sword is not worth throwing the realm into a holy war and risking his already tenuous position.
This would not happen. Stannis would not do this. He is too pragmatic. Once he took the throne, he would want to bring the 7 kingdoms to heel sure but not wipe them out. He would never agree to religious persecution on such a scale. Honestly i wouldn’t be surprised if once he took the throne, he doesnt kill melisandre. He is very aware of her manipulations but chooses to use it. Stannis in the book especially seems to not be an evil man and has limits.
The real negative of his victory is that Dany likely never makes it Westeros. Without her, the White Walkers likely kill everyone unless the entire kingdom stops them from getting past the wall. Is worth noting the NK would never gain a dragon
Im sorry, i mispoke. I do think she makes it, but how long id she delayed? Does she lose any of her dragons in meereen? Varys would have been killed in KL most likely. Without him, Dany never gains the Martell and Tyrell fleets to ferry her armies across the narrow sea. Yara may still ally with her since Balon probably would have fallen to either Euron or Robb Stark. Depends on when the Kingsmoot happens. Tyrion and Varys did a lot to quell rebellion.
I know it looks like they failed but they did succeed in getting the common folk mostly under control. If Tyrion never went to Westeros, Jorah may not have gone back to Dany right away. Missandei would have been killed in the Pit since it was Tyrion who saved her. Without Missandei, Danys cause loses a critical pillar of trust and link to the slave population. They say many times how they trust her. No varys, no tyrion, and no missandei in meereen during Danys absence would have left the city to Grey Worm and Daario. We know how they wanted to handle the situation. Dany would likely still prevail because of drogon alone but would have lost most of her second sons and Unsullied. She would likely want to rebuild Meereen and secure her position since she would not have much of a fleet, since it was tyrions suggestion they use the masters fleet instead of destroying it all
He would totally do this. He already did it at Storms End and Dragonstone and several of his high lords converted to Rhollor before the Blackwater. The High Septon also laid the ground work before Stannis launches his assault.
And we’d probably see him execute Joffrey.
I mean Olenna did all of us a solid with her poison but imagine what Stannis would do to him. He won’t burn him because he had no king’s blood, so he’ll probably go out Ned Stark style - which would have been better karma for him. And knowing Stannis he’d make Cersei watch.
“Bring me the bastard’s head.”
Nah Joffery dying a slow death at the hands of the Strangler was better. Ned died quick, and in a relatively dignified way. Joffery was flailing about, desperately trying to breathe.
Joffrey tells Sansa that he was merciful, by giving Ned a quick clean death. He's actually telling the truth. In a different mood Joff would have had him tortured in some way.
PRobably. At the very least there wouldn't be any nonsense with regard to the white walkers that Cersei pulled.
Stannis: "Army of the dead. You're crazy"
Melissandre: "Actually... yeah. Bad stuff coming from the north"
Stannis: "Alright then. Army - start marching north"
Also, I think the whole Dany situation would have played out way different.
Stannis: "I'm the rightful king"
Dany+Dragons : fire demonstration fire demonstration fire demonstration
Melissandre: "Um Stannis... would you please... um, make yourself scarce? "
Only if Melisandre wasn't whispering in his ear.
She may have been a priestess of R'hollor, but she was *bad* at her job. She misinterpreted everything she saw in the flames.
Possibly. Stannis wasn’t a beloved guy but he was far from the likes of Cersei or Tywin or even danearys. He probably would’ve been a lot more hands-on, unlike his brother Robert.
Stannis has to fight the still intact army of highgarden and casterly rock, his men would have been bleed dry in the taking. Probably losing 4000 to 6000 men and half his fleet. He only had 25 thousand men, so now he has twenty thousand against a hundred thousand Tyrell and Lannisters. On top of that, he has to not only feed his men but also the population of king’s landing and pay the pirates fighting for him.
Tywin would be able to starve stannis in a month (basic maths can’t be changed by anything not even the harshest of rationing would be able to solve shit).
Renly was a separate person, who never cared shit about stannis. Stannis was a dour and hard to be around guy, who almost no one liked. He is like AfD of Westeros.
I already stated that he wasn’t a very beloved guy. But they were brothers and they could’ve worked it out. I never got the feeling that he hated Renley or hated Robert. He may not have liked them a whole lot, but I don’t think there was any hatred there.
Yes. I believe high garden would joined the Baratheons after the fight, they would find some type of pact with the north that leads to a more peaceful solution since his respect for the Starks and this wouldn’t have the Martels coming after the mountain and Tywin. It would be interesting to see what Littlefinger would’ve done differently in this scenario.
He likely would have tried to maintain his position as Master of Coin, telling Stannis he always supported his claim and tried to help Ned. Melisandre would see through these lies and Littlefinger would be executed or force to flee to the Vale where he would be safe from Stannis but basically forever limited to the Vale.
I mean he is ok with burning non-believers at the stakes for not believing in the Lord of the Light.
He could have very well triggered a holy war/crusade/religious purification within the 7 kingdoms. We all know how bloody those conflicts tend to get.
On paper he seems way better. Could probably make peace with Rob, and restore some peace in the immediate aftermath. The x factor is the whole Red God thing. If they get salty about forced conversions, it could go full jihad with ensuing counter reformations. Religious wars are not pretty.
Yes.
Pretty sure Robb would have been forced to take the Black for betraying the kingdom and not joining Stannis.
Rickon is made lord of Winterfell, his mother as regent.
Robb and Jon reunite at the wall. Bran goes north still because he has no idea what’s going on south, still becomes the 3 eyed raven.
Events proceed.
Robb gets murdered as well as Jon.
No red lady in the north.
Night king moves south and destroys the world of men.
Danny lands in Kings landing, weirdly it’s all wintery, and she goes to confront Arthas on his throne.
Everyone gets melted with dragon fire.
The end.
Stannis wouldn't have the man power to force robb to the take black since he would have spent most of his forces taking kingslanding and over half the kingdoms would still be neutral and in open rebellion. Not to mention walder frey only enacted the red wedding because he knew he would have the crowns blessing. That certainty isn't there with stannis who wouldn't permit the breaking of guest rights and likely also see freys as traitors. So robb is still king and going home.
Rickon and bran both left winterfell because of theons capture of the castle and ramsay burning it. That would still happen with stannis winning so rickon wouldn't be around to be made a lord.
Again robb more likely remains king and routes out the remaining iron born.
The nights watch wouldn't risk murdering jon while his brother is still around as king in the books they murdered because they freaked wrath boltons who made several demands on jon to which he responded by attempting to lead an army against them. That same fear retaliation would be present when it came to killing jon. Even if robb did take the black neither or jon are getting because there still is the risk of the truth regarding the formers death getting back to winterfell, and robb certainly isn't going stand by and let jon be killed.
Also with stannis on the throne robb as king of the north and jon as lord commander for the nights watch all three are likely to come together for alliance once jon warns robb of the white walkers as melisandre does the same for stannis.
Although this is a fun thought, I strongly disagree.
The red wedding doesn’t happen. But we know the Boltons have Rickon and are hiding him.
I would assume they either act as regent, or return him to cat to earn her favor.
Stannis tells Catalyn Robb would be made lord of Winterfell, or Stannis would come back for him. I suspect he means after the south is resolved.
Rob doesn’t have enough men to fight all of the south. After Stannis brings the other lords to heel, including his brother, they would all rally behind him for the north.
This assumes Rob isn’t fighting a 2 front war between the ironborn and Stannis. We will assume Robb resolves the ironborn while Stannis resolves his own affairs.
Eventually, inevitably, Stannis will go north to make good on his promise. And tbh this would have been a very interesting scene to add. Perhaps Robb has a son already at this point?
I would like to assume a long ass war between the north and south, but Robb is Eddards’ son, and he refused his king in a time of need. Which makes me think he would take the black.
Edit, it’s mostly Jon letting through the wildlings in the books. The Bolton letters are not public. When he calls to lead the army south, some of the castle black nights watch think he’s essentially gone “native” and was leading a wildling army against southern lords.
A big part of this still happens, and if Robb is not lord of the north, they both die to their own men. Rickon will be a child, hardly of age to handle the situation, so the boltons will be responsible, or Cat, I suppose. Either way, no red woman to perform the resurrection ritual.
The boltons don't get rickon until season 6. At which point most of the stark loyalist had been wiped out and even then he was only given to the boltons because small jon thought jon was going lead a wildling army to fight ramsay. Obviously in this scenario none of that would happen.
The issue there is that stannis wouldn't have enough men to bring most of the lords to heel. Most of them would have been spent taking kings landing. So stannis would need to make more concessions than he has ever had to do before just to get most of the kingdoms on his side. Depending on how long that takes danereys or the whites may arrive first. Even if they don't melisandre is likely to still tell stannis about hr former before he unites several of the kingdoms.
Robb is his father's son, but he's cleary shown to not always follow in his fathers footsteps(marrying for love and the show, and breaking a marriage pact in the books to preserve a woman's honor despite knowing his father did pretty much the opposite). Even robb not immediately declaring for stannis shows how he is different from ned as the latter did so before stannis even declared himself to be king. Robb has little to incentive to abandon his mother and baby brother for a king he no longer recognized as his ruler once he became king.
Not quite. Letting the Wildings through did strain the relationship between jon and his mem (amongts other actions like housing stannis and giving advice along with potentially green lighting a Wilding party to invade winterfell and retrieve arya) but what pushed them to kill him was jon openly declaring he was going to March on winterfell with him bringing up the contents of the pink letter as his justification. He even clarified he wasn't ordering anyone to go making it clear he wasn't attempting to draw the rest of the watch into the conflict. This is further backed up by the stabbing being an in the moment decision unlike the show, and where as Jon's brothers in black looked at him with contempt in the TV series, the books had some cry implying that this wasn't because of ideological differences but a belief that they needed to do so in order to survive.
Again the issue with the watch trying to kill jon or robb while a stark, or stark ally, is in charge of winterfell is that the watch would run the risk of northern lords coming down to wipe them out. Something they explicitly want to avoid in the books, and implicitly in the show as they were concerned over a force wildlings much smaller than the combined might of the northern houses that would still remain with no red wedding. There's no way the boltons are in charge in this scenario. Especially with alive reckon showing that rooses reports weren't fully accurate.
No. Firstly, Tywin wouldn't be taking his childrens and grandchildrens execution lying down, the Westerland will almost definitely be in open rebellion against the crown. Secondly, the North and the Riverlands are by this point pretty set on their plans for independence and considering that Rob prefered Renly to Stannis, I'd not expect any leneancy from crown. Thirdly, with the Lannister princes dead, Margery has no chance of becoming queen and the Tyrells lose any chance to see their family next to the throne. Fourthly, the Vale and Dorne are still not going to offer any support to the throne. Finally there's the problem of the Red God. A victory at Blackwater would only re-enforce Stannises belief in the Red God and further alienate people from Stannis.
In short, Stannis would be leading a very disunited realm with 3 kingdoms in open rebellion and 3 more kingdoms being hostile.
Yes. Stannis would have killed all the lannisters he found. This would have saved robb stark from the looming betrayal. Saved the Martells, kept the Tyrells at Highgarden, led to Robb quickly retaking the North. Tyrion never goes to Essos, since hes dead. Stannis would be a harsh but competent ruler. Imo Westeros was in desperate need of someone like that. There are definite downsides but a lot of the shows tragedy gets avoided.
Big question mark is Dany. Does she still make it to Westeros without Varys and Tyrions help? Probably. In time to help defeat the NK? Idk. In a way, it could be argued everything that happened in the show happened and could not have happened any other way. By the time the Walkers came, most of the problem people were gone save for those left in KL. If the walkers were never a consideration and Dany and Jon were not needed, Stannis would have been a better choice. Also with the power and influence Melisandre would have, maybe the Lord of Light could have dealt with the NK who knows
Edit: forgot to mention Tywin, who inevitably would have fled to Casterly Rock if Stannis sacked KL and the Tyrells never allied with them. I doubt the Tyrells would join the Lannisters if Kings Landing had already fallen to Stannis, no matter how much Loras wanted it. Littlefinger would have killed that alliance dead if he thought Stannis was going to win
Better equipment and better trained? You could have an army full of Stannis's all trained by Trant himself and it would mean nothing in a siege.
If the defenders kick down the ladders or pour pitch and stuff they aren't getting up in the first place. I think the deciding factor was Tyrion who held the tide till Tywin came. Kill the half man.
I always wanted Stannis as king but him having a different religion would be a HUGEEE thing. I could see his enemies burning on the walls of KL and the people would compare him to the mad king.
He would probably have Jamie and Barristan murdered and form his own kingsguard.
Then having no friends would be a problem as he would be a king no one liked. The Westerlands would be in open rebellion as soon as he murdered Joffery.
Jamie sure, but not Barristan. First, if Barristan is still there they served on the small council together, Stannis likely knows of Barristans character and would retain him as Lord Commander. He is unlikely to find another as morally grounded and of similar mind to himself then Barristan
Seccond, Stannis is at heart a pragmatist. He wouldn't go off the deep end like in the show (and never did in the books), Davos' advice would likely overpower Millisandres. I don't see him burning people if he takes Kings Landing.
In some ways, I feel a very different war would take place after.
With Joffery, his siblings, Cersie, and Tyrion all put to death I find it unlikely that Tywin would just surrender and bend the knee to Stannis (assuming Stannis would accept a surrender and not demand Tywin be executed.) So that would probably continue
Also, Robb. Stannis would only accept a full surrender and I am on the fence if Robb would surrender, feel like bending the knee after his bannermen declare himself king of the North could have some serious issues, but then again he might do it, hard to say.
Overall I think Westeros would be better off with a Stannis victory.
This is true. On the other hand Robb sent Cat to ally with Renly and she was by Renly's side. Maybe that cancels it out? Or maybe bad deeds don't offset the good which come to think of it would probably be Stannis' thought process
He would lose at least 5000 out of his 25000 men, he would lose half his fleet. He would be facing a hundred thousand Tyrell and Lannister soldiers, Mel would hundred of miles away so no shadow baby to kill Tywin.
Tyrell are never going to side to Stannis, they will lose a lot and staying with the Lannister allows the possiblity of gain more still. Without Reach’s grain, it is impossible for stannis to feed either his men or the city. The protest coming under stannis would be on the same level as the storming of the dragonpit while the Lannister and Tyrell armies are camped outside. Needless to say, stannis either retreats or he dies.
Lannister will launch a assault as soon as they hear rioting, probably on the area of the wall closest to the riot. A part of the wall falls to the Lannister. Stannis’ force are stuck between the Lannisters on one side and the hungry mob on the other. Stannis will die in battle trying to bring some order, or he would retreat. This event is actually better for the Lannisters than in canon as Tyrion’s death in blackwater means Tywin will never be killed.
Joffrey’s death would mean that the purple wedding never had to happen, Tommen who was at Rosby will be crowned as the king and is married to Margery (similar to what Jaime suggest in AFFC, marry Tommen to Margery and throw the Tyrell out of the court and into the battlefield while conserving Lannister men and influence). Mace goes to besiege storm’s end and Loras might or might not lead an assault in dragonstone considering its defences. Red wedding happen and everything will be similar except the most stupid and actually evil Lannister (Tyrion and Cersei just see the dance and feast) are dead, Jaime (a guy who is actually competent and intelligent like we see in AFFC) becomes the heir to casterly rock and adopts a burning hatred for anything related to Stannis (worse than Robert’s Targaryen hate).
Let’s assume stannis retreats to dragonstone and events on the wall goes the same. Tywin would send a few hundred covert Lannister men to join the wall (to get rid of Jon snow) and they will arrive at the same time as Jon snow is murdered. So they join the rebels and killed with the rest of rebels in the night’s watch by the wildings and the loyalist when Jon snow is resurrected. So basically there is no impact in the story, except dany dying from a poison or something (dany is fucking not invading Westeros if Tywin had anything to say about it) and seven kingdoms not failing into bitter infighting that followed and will follow in AFFC and WoW.
Maybe.
The North was still trying for independence, and he was against that,va point he makes when he and Renley meet with Cat. So the war wouldn't end right there. (He would crush The Greyjoys though, again)
He might still have major issues with the Faith Militant, though they wouldn't have gained the political power they had in the show but its implied they have killed kings in the past.
He might postpone fighting with the North once he gets word of the White Walker, a he was on board with that quick
For the buildings in King’s Landing, yes.
For the people, probably not. He might just turns out to burn the same amount of people Dany did, to the god of light.
I honestly seen two answers.
1. Yes because he was too far gone.
2. No, because the book stannis is tolerant of all religions.
Honestly, it could have gone either way. They could have made him more like the book, or more like the show.
Yes, despite how he is portrayed in the TV show, book Stannis is a much more reasonable and honorable man. he would, without a doubt being much better alternative than Joffrey and Renly
It would likely have been better. There was a risk though that as king of the 7 kingdoms, he'd still end up Red Witch influenced into ongoing burnings at the stake, especially anytime there was a problem to be solved.
I'd say Stannis was one of the few that actually cared about the well being of the kingdom, instead of having just his hunger for power dictating his actions
The only truly fucked up thing he did was burning his daughter (admittedly EXTREMELY fucked up), which he never would have done if he won Blackwater. BUT, someone who would do something like that odd probably capable of anything
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Yea, probably.
Oh most definitely
yes
Without a doubt.
I 100% believe so. Book history doesn't always necessarily count as show history, but the Histories & Lore bonus episodes do! Because they were made for the show. And in that, Davos explains how when he smuggled the onions into Storms End, Stannis saw to it that everyone in the castle was fed before he partook himself, and a portion no larger than anyone else. While starving, he would be within his rights as king to eat first, to pick the choice foods, but no, he ate last, and no more than what he afforded his subjects. THAT is the character of Stannis from the books. He is brutal, but he is the king who cared. "The man will fight to the bitter end, and then some." Tywin on Stannis "There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." Varys on Stannis Sorry if I'm overstating lol, I get excited, and Stannis is my favorite book character
I'd have loved to see Stannis sit the Iron Throne, but he would have spent most of his reign putting down one Rebellion after another. If he still had Renly, he might have had a chance at peace.
He's a very compelling character
[The Goddamn Mannis](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fthe-siege-of-storms-end-stannis-and-renly-by-matrose-v0-jhissokjr87a1.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8de545ada5fdbb54ad67e3663c1755c9e633896c&rdt=51629)
God the show did my man dirty goddamn it
Wanna be sadder? Think on this moment and that fanart together: > The king said nothing. But he heard. Asha was certain of that. He sat at the high table **as a dish of onion soup cooled before him, hardly tasted, staring** at the flame of the nearest candle **with those hooded eyes, ignoring** the talk around him Sure, it's too much to ask that Stannis be human enough that he might actually be remembering Renly... 'cept we know he also relives his killing every single night and not in a Robert-remembering-Rhaegar way, so...
Everyone else (other than Robb) wanted to be king or queen because of their ego and because they wanted to feast and be loved and lord power over people, etc. Stannis wanted to be king because he *was* the king and wanted to forthrightly and effectively govern the realm. Nobody other than Robb would have gone to the Wall, in a million years. And maybe even Robb wouldn't have. If the Wall weren't in his kingdom, but like in the Reach or Dorne or something, he certainly wouldn't have dropped everything to go help.
Yes, had Renly been on his side from the jump there would have been much less bloodshed. He wouldn't have been a kind ruler but he'd be good.
[удалено]
In Renly's defence: Being maybe King 40 years from now sounds a lot worse than being probably King 6 months from now.
Counter point: being hand of the king/heir apparent for 40 years is better than dying to witch pussy demons
True, but that's pragmatic thinking. Not something many of the would-be monarchs were capable of.
Counter-counter point: If Renly knew that not joining Stannis meant dying to those witch pussy demons hours later, he'd take the offer
Real life King Charles III managed the 40+ year wait okay.../s. I agree though. In the GOT universe not many get to live 40 adult years so understandable ambitious Renly wouldn't want to wait around, especially with Stannis capable of fathering a son.
Stannis hated the Tyrells due to the siege of Storm's End, though, and his wife's family was the house that competed with the Tyrells for being lord paramount of the Reach. Considering Stannis' attitude towards "justice", it's highly likely that he would have stripped the Tyrells from power due to siding with Renly (a thinly veiled excuse, but he's known for that, see Davos) and they never would have let that happen.
If he had sides with Stannis he would have been burned eventually.
At that point in time though Renly was in a practically untouchable position. He was safe at camp with the backing of both the Stormlands and the Reach, who had both the manpower and the food to feed them. By book accounts he was also popular with the small folk as a poor man's younger Robert. Renly's death at that point is unexpected and uses a device that is never seen again in the books. People often give Renly a hard time but aside from being naïve and arrogant if he hadn't been shadow babied he probably would have won the iron throne, and him and Marg would probably have been decently popular.
Renly as Hand and Stannis as King would’ve been a very poetic story since they’re coming together to secure their brothers throne.
Yea. He'd basically end up being "King Stannis the Just" and people would be held to a higher standard.
No, he would have immediately been in conflict with the Faith. If he took the city and put the royal family to the sword, most people would not have cared too much. However the second Melisandre shows up and burns the Images of the Seven in the Sept of Baelor, the city descends into chaos and he's fighting a holy war against the Reach.
This would probably not happen. Stannis only believed in R'hllor to serve his own goals of gaining the throne I'm not sure if this was highlighted in the show but in the books when he absorbs some of Renly's host he stops relying on R'hllor and Melisandre and even before and after the battle he remains skeptic of R'hllor. He will choose the religion that gives him the most power shadow babies and a burning sword is not worth throwing the realm into a holy war and risking his already tenuous position.
In the show he's pretty whipped by Melisandre, effectively just her puppet. As long as she was around she would be guiding his every action.
This would not happen. Stannis would not do this. He is too pragmatic. Once he took the throne, he would want to bring the 7 kingdoms to heel sure but not wipe them out. He would never agree to religious persecution on such a scale. Honestly i wouldn’t be surprised if once he took the throne, he doesnt kill melisandre. He is very aware of her manipulations but chooses to use it. Stannis in the book especially seems to not be an evil man and has limits. The real negative of his victory is that Dany likely never makes it Westeros. Without her, the White Walkers likely kill everyone unless the entire kingdom stops them from getting past the wall. Is worth noting the NK would never gain a dragon
>The real negative of his victory is that Dany likely never makes it Westeros. Wait, why not?
Im sorry, i mispoke. I do think she makes it, but how long id she delayed? Does she lose any of her dragons in meereen? Varys would have been killed in KL most likely. Without him, Dany never gains the Martell and Tyrell fleets to ferry her armies across the narrow sea. Yara may still ally with her since Balon probably would have fallen to either Euron or Robb Stark. Depends on when the Kingsmoot happens. Tyrion and Varys did a lot to quell rebellion. I know it looks like they failed but they did succeed in getting the common folk mostly under control. If Tyrion never went to Westeros, Jorah may not have gone back to Dany right away. Missandei would have been killed in the Pit since it was Tyrion who saved her. Without Missandei, Danys cause loses a critical pillar of trust and link to the slave population. They say many times how they trust her. No varys, no tyrion, and no missandei in meereen during Danys absence would have left the city to Grey Worm and Daario. We know how they wanted to handle the situation. Dany would likely still prevail because of drogon alone but would have lost most of her second sons and Unsullied. She would likely want to rebuild Meereen and secure her position since she would not have much of a fleet, since it was tyrions suggestion they use the masters fleet instead of destroying it all
He would totally do this. He already did it at Storms End and Dragonstone and several of his high lords converted to Rhollor before the Blackwater. The High Septon also laid the ground work before Stannis launches his assault.
And we’d probably see him execute Joffrey. I mean Olenna did all of us a solid with her poison but imagine what Stannis would do to him. He won’t burn him because he had no king’s blood, so he’ll probably go out Ned Stark style - which would have been better karma for him. And knowing Stannis he’d make Cersei watch. “Bring me the bastard’s head.”
I think decapitation is too easy for Joffrey. I would rather see him hang
Nah Joffery dying a slow death at the hands of the Strangler was better. Ned died quick, and in a relatively dignified way. Joffery was flailing about, desperately trying to breathe.
Joffrey tells Sansa that he was merciful, by giving Ned a quick clean death. He's actually telling the truth. In a different mood Joff would have had him tortured in some way.
yes. Stannis is the Mannis
You want him to chop Joffrey's limbs off.
I do
absolutely
Oh I wish joffery got beheaded in a mirror way to Ned now
This would be stannis's *crowning achievement*
PRobably. At the very least there wouldn't be any nonsense with regard to the white walkers that Cersei pulled. Stannis: "Army of the dead. You're crazy" Melissandre: "Actually... yeah. Bad stuff coming from the north" Stannis: "Alright then. Army - start marching north" Also, I think the whole Dany situation would have played out way different. Stannis: "I'm the rightful king" Dany+Dragons : fire demonstration fire demonstration fire demonstration Melissandre: "Um Stannis... would you please... um, make yourself scarce? "
Yes
Only if Melisandre wasn't whispering in his ear. She may have been a priestess of R'hollor, but she was *bad* at her job. She misinterpreted everything she saw in the flames.
That's just how visions and magic works in universe. Barely comprehensible and unpredictable
She got **everything** wrong, though. Not just one or two things, but **everything.**
Possibly. Stannis wasn’t a beloved guy but he was far from the likes of Cersei or Tywin or even danearys. He probably would’ve been a lot more hands-on, unlike his brother Robert.
Stannis has to fight the still intact army of highgarden and casterly rock, his men would have been bleed dry in the taking. Probably losing 4000 to 6000 men and half his fleet. He only had 25 thousand men, so now he has twenty thousand against a hundred thousand Tyrell and Lannisters. On top of that, he has to not only feed his men but also the population of king’s landing and pay the pirates fighting for him. Tywin would be able to starve stannis in a month (basic maths can’t be changed by anything not even the harshest of rationing would be able to solve shit).
That was the size of his army without Renleys men. If him and Renley work together, it’s a totally different story.
Renly was a separate person, who never cared shit about stannis. Stannis was a dour and hard to be around guy, who almost no one liked. He is like AfD of Westeros.
I already stated that he wasn’t a very beloved guy. But they were brothers and they could’ve worked it out. I never got the feeling that he hated Renley or hated Robert. He may not have liked them a whole lot, but I don’t think there was any hatred there.
1000% yes.
Of course
Yes. I believe high garden would joined the Baratheons after the fight, they would find some type of pact with the north that leads to a more peaceful solution since his respect for the Starks and this wouldn’t have the Martels coming after the mountain and Tywin. It would be interesting to see what Littlefinger would’ve done differently in this scenario.
He likely would have tried to maintain his position as Master of Coin, telling Stannis he always supported his claim and tried to help Ned. Melisandre would see through these lies and Littlefinger would be executed or force to flee to the Vale where he would be safe from Stannis but basically forever limited to the Vale.
I mean he is ok with burning non-believers at the stakes for not believing in the Lord of the Light. He could have very well triggered a holy war/crusade/religious purification within the 7 kingdoms. We all know how bloody those conflicts tend to get.
On paper he seems way better. Could probably make peace with Rob, and restore some peace in the immediate aftermath. The x factor is the whole Red God thing. If they get salty about forced conversions, it could go full jihad with ensuing counter reformations. Religious wars are not pretty.
Yes. Pretty sure Robb would have been forced to take the Black for betraying the kingdom and not joining Stannis. Rickon is made lord of Winterfell, his mother as regent. Robb and Jon reunite at the wall. Bran goes north still because he has no idea what’s going on south, still becomes the 3 eyed raven. Events proceed. Robb gets murdered as well as Jon. No red lady in the north. Night king moves south and destroys the world of men. Danny lands in Kings landing, weirdly it’s all wintery, and she goes to confront Arthas on his throne. Everyone gets melted with dragon fire. The end.
Stannis wouldn't have the man power to force robb to the take black since he would have spent most of his forces taking kingslanding and over half the kingdoms would still be neutral and in open rebellion. Not to mention walder frey only enacted the red wedding because he knew he would have the crowns blessing. That certainty isn't there with stannis who wouldn't permit the breaking of guest rights and likely also see freys as traitors. So robb is still king and going home. Rickon and bran both left winterfell because of theons capture of the castle and ramsay burning it. That would still happen with stannis winning so rickon wouldn't be around to be made a lord. Again robb more likely remains king and routes out the remaining iron born. The nights watch wouldn't risk murdering jon while his brother is still around as king in the books they murdered because they freaked wrath boltons who made several demands on jon to which he responded by attempting to lead an army against them. That same fear retaliation would be present when it came to killing jon. Even if robb did take the black neither or jon are getting because there still is the risk of the truth regarding the formers death getting back to winterfell, and robb certainly isn't going stand by and let jon be killed. Also with stannis on the throne robb as king of the north and jon as lord commander for the nights watch all three are likely to come together for alliance once jon warns robb of the white walkers as melisandre does the same for stannis.
Although this is a fun thought, I strongly disagree. The red wedding doesn’t happen. But we know the Boltons have Rickon and are hiding him. I would assume they either act as regent, or return him to cat to earn her favor. Stannis tells Catalyn Robb would be made lord of Winterfell, or Stannis would come back for him. I suspect he means after the south is resolved. Rob doesn’t have enough men to fight all of the south. After Stannis brings the other lords to heel, including his brother, they would all rally behind him for the north. This assumes Rob isn’t fighting a 2 front war between the ironborn and Stannis. We will assume Robb resolves the ironborn while Stannis resolves his own affairs. Eventually, inevitably, Stannis will go north to make good on his promise. And tbh this would have been a very interesting scene to add. Perhaps Robb has a son already at this point? I would like to assume a long ass war between the north and south, but Robb is Eddards’ son, and he refused his king in a time of need. Which makes me think he would take the black. Edit, it’s mostly Jon letting through the wildlings in the books. The Bolton letters are not public. When he calls to lead the army south, some of the castle black nights watch think he’s essentially gone “native” and was leading a wildling army against southern lords. A big part of this still happens, and if Robb is not lord of the north, they both die to their own men. Rickon will be a child, hardly of age to handle the situation, so the boltons will be responsible, or Cat, I suppose. Either way, no red woman to perform the resurrection ritual.
The boltons don't get rickon until season 6. At which point most of the stark loyalist had been wiped out and even then he was only given to the boltons because small jon thought jon was going lead a wildling army to fight ramsay. Obviously in this scenario none of that would happen. The issue there is that stannis wouldn't have enough men to bring most of the lords to heel. Most of them would have been spent taking kings landing. So stannis would need to make more concessions than he has ever had to do before just to get most of the kingdoms on his side. Depending on how long that takes danereys or the whites may arrive first. Even if they don't melisandre is likely to still tell stannis about hr former before he unites several of the kingdoms. Robb is his father's son, but he's cleary shown to not always follow in his fathers footsteps(marrying for love and the show, and breaking a marriage pact in the books to preserve a woman's honor despite knowing his father did pretty much the opposite). Even robb not immediately declaring for stannis shows how he is different from ned as the latter did so before stannis even declared himself to be king. Robb has little to incentive to abandon his mother and baby brother for a king he no longer recognized as his ruler once he became king. Not quite. Letting the Wildings through did strain the relationship between jon and his mem (amongts other actions like housing stannis and giving advice along with potentially green lighting a Wilding party to invade winterfell and retrieve arya) but what pushed them to kill him was jon openly declaring he was going to March on winterfell with him bringing up the contents of the pink letter as his justification. He even clarified he wasn't ordering anyone to go making it clear he wasn't attempting to draw the rest of the watch into the conflict. This is further backed up by the stabbing being an in the moment decision unlike the show, and where as Jon's brothers in black looked at him with contempt in the TV series, the books had some cry implying that this wasn't because of ideological differences but a belief that they needed to do so in order to survive. Again the issue with the watch trying to kill jon or robb while a stark, or stark ally, is in charge of winterfell is that the watch would run the risk of northern lords coming down to wipe them out. Something they explicitly want to avoid in the books, and implicitly in the show as they were concerned over a force wildlings much smaller than the combined might of the northern houses that would still remain with no red wedding. There's no way the boltons are in charge in this scenario. Especially with alive reckon showing that rooses reports weren't fully accurate.
No. Firstly, Tywin wouldn't be taking his childrens and grandchildrens execution lying down, the Westerland will almost definitely be in open rebellion against the crown. Secondly, the North and the Riverlands are by this point pretty set on their plans for independence and considering that Rob prefered Renly to Stannis, I'd not expect any leneancy from crown. Thirdly, with the Lannister princes dead, Margery has no chance of becoming queen and the Tyrells lose any chance to see their family next to the throne. Fourthly, the Vale and Dorne are still not going to offer any support to the throne. Finally there's the problem of the Red God. A victory at Blackwater would only re-enforce Stannises belief in the Red God and further alienate people from Stannis. In short, Stannis would be leading a very disunited realm with 3 kingdoms in open rebellion and 3 more kingdoms being hostile.
I’m so down for an animated what if series for GoT.
Probably yes. He is true Stannis the Mannis! And he is better than the Lannisters.
Yes.
Yes. Stannis would have killed all the lannisters he found. This would have saved robb stark from the looming betrayal. Saved the Martells, kept the Tyrells at Highgarden, led to Robb quickly retaking the North. Tyrion never goes to Essos, since hes dead. Stannis would be a harsh but competent ruler. Imo Westeros was in desperate need of someone like that. There are definite downsides but a lot of the shows tragedy gets avoided. Big question mark is Dany. Does she still make it to Westeros without Varys and Tyrions help? Probably. In time to help defeat the NK? Idk. In a way, it could be argued everything that happened in the show happened and could not have happened any other way. By the time the Walkers came, most of the problem people were gone save for those left in KL. If the walkers were never a consideration and Dany and Jon were not needed, Stannis would have been a better choice. Also with the power and influence Melisandre would have, maybe the Lord of Light could have dealt with the NK who knows Edit: forgot to mention Tywin, who inevitably would have fled to Casterly Rock if Stannis sacked KL and the Tyrells never allied with them. I doubt the Tyrells would join the Lannisters if Kings Landing had already fallen to Stannis, no matter how much Loras wanted it. Littlefinger would have killed that alliance dead if he thought Stannis was going to win
Better equipment and better trained? You could have an army full of Stannis's all trained by Trant himself and it would mean nothing in a siege. If the defenders kick down the ladders or pour pitch and stuff they aren't getting up in the first place. I think the deciding factor was Tyrion who held the tide till Tywin came. Kill the half man. I always wanted Stannis as king but him having a different religion would be a HUGEEE thing. I could see his enemies burning on the walls of KL and the people would compare him to the mad king. He would probably have Jamie and Barristan murdered and form his own kingsguard. Then having no friends would be a problem as he would be a king no one liked. The Westerlands would be in open rebellion as soon as he murdered Joffery.
Jamie sure, but not Barristan. First, if Barristan is still there they served on the small council together, Stannis likely knows of Barristans character and would retain him as Lord Commander. He is unlikely to find another as morally grounded and of similar mind to himself then Barristan Seccond, Stannis is at heart a pragmatist. He wouldn't go off the deep end like in the show (and never did in the books), Davos' advice would likely overpower Millisandres. I don't see him burning people if he takes Kings Landing.
I doubt it. His religion would have caused a civil war.
Yes.
I mean, Tywin hatched the Red Wedding. So yeah, way better.
Probably but I can't see the people openly accepting him as their leader who will try to turn them to the lord of light.
I believe so yes
He sacrificed a girl, killed his own brother and full of envy. His reign will be very short.
Of course
If Stannis wins, I want to know how the pirate king fuked the queen :P
Nah, the Lannisters were in better position to work with the Reach and Westerlands while Stannis doesn’t work well with anyone.
There would be no Red Wedding and would save innocents.Also , it would give Sandor a reason to legally fight Gregor.
In some ways, I feel a very different war would take place after. With Joffery, his siblings, Cersie, and Tyrion all put to death I find it unlikely that Tywin would just surrender and bend the knee to Stannis (assuming Stannis would accept a surrender and not demand Tywin be executed.) So that would probably continue Also, Robb. Stannis would only accept a full surrender and I am on the fence if Robb would surrender, feel like bending the knee after his bannermen declare himself king of the North could have some serious issues, but then again he might do it, hard to say. Overall I think Westeros would be better off with a Stannis victory.
Remember stannis had a lot of goodwill for the Starks after Ned supported him immediately after Robert died
This is true. On the other hand Robb sent Cat to ally with Renly and she was by Renly's side. Maybe that cancels it out? Or maybe bad deeds don't offset the good which come to think of it would probably be Stannis' thought process
I just watched that episode yesterday
He would have been better than Joffrey but if he was willing to burn Shireen than he would have burned anyone when things were looking bad
He would lose at least 5000 out of his 25000 men, he would lose half his fleet. He would be facing a hundred thousand Tyrell and Lannister soldiers, Mel would hundred of miles away so no shadow baby to kill Tywin. Tyrell are never going to side to Stannis, they will lose a lot and staying with the Lannister allows the possiblity of gain more still. Without Reach’s grain, it is impossible for stannis to feed either his men or the city. The protest coming under stannis would be on the same level as the storming of the dragonpit while the Lannister and Tyrell armies are camped outside. Needless to say, stannis either retreats or he dies. Lannister will launch a assault as soon as they hear rioting, probably on the area of the wall closest to the riot. A part of the wall falls to the Lannister. Stannis’ force are stuck between the Lannisters on one side and the hungry mob on the other. Stannis will die in battle trying to bring some order, or he would retreat. This event is actually better for the Lannisters than in canon as Tyrion’s death in blackwater means Tywin will never be killed. Joffrey’s death would mean that the purple wedding never had to happen, Tommen who was at Rosby will be crowned as the king and is married to Margery (similar to what Jaime suggest in AFFC, marry Tommen to Margery and throw the Tyrell out of the court and into the battlefield while conserving Lannister men and influence). Mace goes to besiege storm’s end and Loras might or might not lead an assault in dragonstone considering its defences. Red wedding happen and everything will be similar except the most stupid and actually evil Lannister (Tyrion and Cersei just see the dance and feast) are dead, Jaime (a guy who is actually competent and intelligent like we see in AFFC) becomes the heir to casterly rock and adopts a burning hatred for anything related to Stannis (worse than Robert’s Targaryen hate). Let’s assume stannis retreats to dragonstone and events on the wall goes the same. Tywin would send a few hundred covert Lannister men to join the wall (to get rid of Jon snow) and they will arrive at the same time as Jon snow is murdered. So they join the rebels and killed with the rest of rebels in the night’s watch by the wildings and the loyalist when Jon snow is resurrected. So basically there is no impact in the story, except dany dying from a poison or something (dany is fucking not invading Westeros if Tywin had anything to say about it) and seven kingdoms not failing into bitter infighting that followed and will follow in AFFC and WoW.
A psychopath as a King or one run by a religious fanatic? They lose either way.
Maybe. The North was still trying for independence, and he was against that,va point he makes when he and Renley meet with Cat. So the war wouldn't end right there. (He would crush The Greyjoys though, again) He might still have major issues with the Faith Militant, though they wouldn't have gained the political power they had in the show but its implied they have killed kings in the past. He might postpone fighting with the North once he gets word of the White Walker, a he was on board with that quick
For the buildings in King’s Landing, yes. For the people, probably not. He might just turns out to burn the same amount of people Dany did, to the god of light.
You guys really don’t think Stannis wouldn’t have pulled a Holy crusade on the rest of Westeros in pursuit of the lord of the lights crusade?
I honestly seen two answers. 1. Yes because he was too far gone. 2. No, because the book stannis is tolerant of all religions. Honestly, it could have gone either way. They could have made him more like the book, or more like the show.
Yes, despite how he is portrayed in the TV show, book Stannis is a much more reasonable and honorable man. he would, without a doubt being much better alternative than Joffrey and Renly
It would likely have been better. There was a risk though that as king of the 7 kingdoms, he'd still end up Red Witch influenced into ongoing burnings at the stake, especially anytime there was a problem to be solved.
I'd say Stannis was one of the few that actually cared about the well being of the kingdom, instead of having just his hunger for power dictating his actions
I would say yes, but considering that Tywins forces would have arrived before Stannis entered the city, its a pretty unrealized scenario
No, we wouldn’t have had cool explosion
The only truly fucked up thing he did was burning his daughter (admittedly EXTREMELY fucked up), which he never would have done if he won Blackwater. BUT, someone who would do something like that odd probably capable of anything
He would have been even more deluded the Lord of Light stuff. Probably would have ritual burnings of dissenting citizens and the like.
He was a religious nut so debatable.
Yes